McFly's Danny Jones on Overcoming Trauma, Anxiety, & I'm a Celeb Secrets (E324)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. meant to be. It's not meant to be easy. If something's hard, it means it's right. Just always think that something good is always around the corner. It will happen for you. That is the king of the jungle, McFly's Danny Jones, the recent winner of I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here, who joins us on today's episode of High Performance. I'm Jake Humphrey. Alongside me is Damien Hughes. And between us, we love to explore the mindsets, the ideas, the experiences behind the world's greatest high performers. And Danny is someone who had his first number one album at just 18 years of age when McFly released Room on the Third Floor they became the youngest ever band to have a number one album stealing the record from the Beatles of all people since then he's performed all over the world he's released loads more music with the band as well as becoming a solo artist as well as that people love him on the television whether it's The Voice which he's won The Masked Singer which he's won MasterChef where he was the runner up or I'm a celebrity get me out of here which as you know he was a winner and he's a serial winner Damien.

1:31He is but this isn't about Danny's achievements significant as they are. While he was in the Australian jungle he began to open up to his fellow contestants about the anxiety that he's lived with for years which started when his parents split up at the same time as his career began to go stratospheric. This is a conversation about the scars that are left behind from trauma and how, when they're left untreated, these can deepen and also spread into other areas of our life. It's also a conversation about Danny's journey through this, how he's learned to live with the ghost of his own past, and more importantly, what he's learned from it.

2:08You know what, as well as being incredibly wise, Danny is also just a brilliant company and his energy actually is made even more contagious by knowing the challenges he's had to overcome to get to this point. I would just like to start on behalf of all of us on the show for thanking Danny for his honesty, his openness. The topics that we cover in this conversation are not easy ones to talk about. It is a deeply honest and moving conversation and it was an hour in his company that Damien and I are really grateful for as we welcome Danny Jones to High Performance.

2:44Well, Danny, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. First conversation you've had since you left the jungle. It is. And of all the things that you did in there, the conversation that you had about anxiety, about the challenges from your parents' divorce, about opening up to some of your other campmates, it seems like it really resonated with the public. Why did you choose now to talk? I've actually mentioned it a few times before, but it's never had that real impact. And I think an environment like that, I didn't genuinely, I did not think I would ever talk about it like that ever again.

3:18I thought I was done with it. but when you get asked those questions in an atmosphere like that there's only like i feel like there's only a base level that we talk about in everyday life i'll go for a beer with my mate and it'd be like so how are you mate and he's like yeah i'm good but there's never that level that like the jungle and that space of having no distractions in the middle of nowhere you talk to people and you get to know people deeply and quickly but then they ask the questions and then you you answer them and then you find that you're going deeper like this podcast will probably do today but you don't get this time in in everyday life there's so many distractions and things going on um so i never thought i'd open up like that i genuinely i genuinely didn't but um it was healing and i've learned something about myself that i still need to heal because that i clearly have something that is still hurting or something that's still there and i thought i'd you know oh i'm fine i've been to therapy oh good i spoke to somebody cool and i think that's what we do but yeah as as men i i we don't talk about it enough and the jungle was a prime example of i've still got healing to do you know so for people that didn't see you talk in the jungle what are you healing from i think i'm healing from a lot of things when i when i talk about it with i've had various therapists for different reasons but i'm trying to find another one now it's that 16 year old kid who was scarred by maybe a relationship at home you know for me my parents are like your first idols the people that you look up to and it's it's the magic of a family and you know getting in a band and coming back to a house that wasn't a home anymore that that had happy memories I was healing from that and that catches up with you and that 16 year old kid, he's always chasing me behind.

5:04I was put in a situation where financially I had to take my mum's house for her and put my sister through university. And I'm like, I'm not a dad yet. I'm 17 years old. You know, I've just got in a band. I should be enjoying it. I'm touring the world. But I had all of this, like, I had the highest point in my life so early on, so young, but then the lowest point. But I didn't really, I didn't really realise that it was my lowest point because I didn't know what these feelings were. I didn't know what anxiety was. I just remember trying to deal with it in a way that I did, which was escaping the band and escaping the fun that I was having.

5:36I didn't want to go home and go to this dark place where my mum was in bits over this divorce. I didn't want to go there, you know, and I left it to my sister and, you know, it's hard for anyone to go through. But seeing my mum like that, it wasn't very nice. And from what was such an amazing, what I thought was an amazing, perfect family home to this destruction and, you know, cold, damp dark house didn't want to be there so i was taking that everywhere with me and then suddenly this feeling became so it became almost like a tornado just getting bigger and bigger and bigger and then it started affecting me in my work um in my social life couldn't go to football games you know i was in custom queues having anxiety attacks uh i was doing interviews where they'd literally be counting down on tv we're live in three two i'm like i'm having that feeling again And oh my God, I was literally above my body, feeling cold and sweaty and sick and didn't know where I was.

6:38And I just was out of balance mentally. And what do you attribute the anxiety to? Good question. Trauma from somewhere. I think that most of it is loss. Whether that's the loss of my dad. and then the next person I look up to was my granddad. I lost him. Then the next person was my nan. I lost her. Then my best, best mate more recently. I've lost him. So it's all loss. Yeah, I think it's loss. Your dad's still around, but you don't have a relationship with him, right? Yeah, don't have a relationship with him since I was about 18, 19. Right. why was it because divorce is not uncommon 42 % of marriages end in divorce which is alarming and pretty sad statistic but not everyone the best part of 20 years later is still seeking answers why was it so difficult for you?

7:38I think because I sat down with him and I said can you not just sort it out with mum? yeah can you not just sort this out? for real because normally you think about your kid should be your first thought and I didn't feel like that with my dad It was, he left us and he just abandoned and you're like, okay, cool. Like I idolized you and now you've just gone. Did you ever tell him that? I don't think so. But I think, you know, I don't know, maybe I didn't. But he had some issues going on as well. I think that, you know, it was when he got a new job and I wish I'd known what I know now to be able to go, dad, talk to me, let's talk about it.

8:16I was always scared of talking because talking in my house always ended up in conflict and fights. and I actually wrote a song about it on the first and second album about how I don't know why I just let these things slip by. Why am I so scared to talk about it? Why am I so scared of emotion? Because emotion in my house was a fight. That's what I didn't like about it. And I was just a peacemaker. And I shouldn't be that at 15, 16, 17, 18.

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10:25So what do you wish you'd have known then that you do know now? Sounds ridiculous, but I wish I could have sat, literally gone for a beer or a coffee with my dad and just gone, are you okay? What's going on? Tell me. Are you upset at work? Because he'd always just escaped down at the pub himself. You know, we'd be almost relieved that he'd left the house because he brought this energy home that he clearly wasn't happy. You know, and I wish he'd have spoke. I wish he'd have talked about it. You know, he had a marriage before that other stuff went on and I wish I'd have talked to him about that and gone, how are you feeling about that?

10:59You know, you've always had some trauma from somewhere else and you're carrying it and it's just gone into the next one, into the next one. And unfortunately, me and my sister were the brunt of all of that. Yeah. It's so interesting though, isn't it? You're now in a place where you know that your dad wasn't behaving badly or acting like a dick for no reason or wanting to create conflict. Like you now realise he had a trauma that was unresolved as well. I think he did, yeah. And I think that if he had spoken about it or if he'd have known how to talk about it, and I think I, I don't know what, I don't think I'm like my dad, but what I think maybe we do have the same is I don't understand my emotions sometimes and I think I'm still working on that.

11:38I don't know how I feel. I'm like, what is that feeling I'm feeling today? and maybe he felt like that maybe he was like I don't know what I'm feeling today all I know is the only way to escape it is go down where I'm in a happy place which is the pub yeah okay that's fine but there comes a point where those emotions and what I've learned it fills up like a a bin doesn't it it's got to overflow and come out somewhere I mean I've had it in different feelings if it's grieving it's more night terrors and waking up at night and then I remember waking up at night with night terrors when I'm producing and writing a One Direction song and I was waking up and I was again I had this moment of like when my dad left I was just started the band and my dad left then when my granddad died I was having these night terrors but I was producing and writing for the biggest band in the world so I have these like weird coincidences in life that happen all the time and I remember being freaked out that this this job needed to be perfect and right because you know we've written the song and it's great but now i need to deliver it in a production way but then i'm i've lost somebody that was close to me and i'm having these night terrors and i was i didn't know how to cope with it all it was so crazy did you draw a line between having professional success and this personal suffering that you were going through what do you mean well did you like for some people they can often think that it's almost some kind of karmic payback that I'm successful here, I need to be paying the price somewhere else.

13:13I never thought like that. Mine was more like I tried to escape it in my success and that wasn't the right thing. So I'd always try and escape it somewhere. But I've quickly learned that that wasn't the right thing. Anxiety is such an interesting one because when you talk to people about depression, they go, oh, right, you need to go and seek help or if you've got a broken leg or a... a physical issue you go and see the doctor anxiety is very strange isn't it because you you almost can't explain to people what's going on because it doesn't sound right it just sounds like you're worrying do you know what I mean I've been there myself it's so hard to understand if you've never felt it it really is but like you said it's a very simple way I would describe it is this if you did break your wrist where do you go you go to the doctor like you said then you get a cast on it maybe that's therapy so trauma is a break or whatever That feeling of imbalance in the brain is kind of a break.

14:07Then you get a cast on it. But then you have to have physio to rebuild those muscles in your arm. So that for me is the therapy afterwards. And you have to keep going at it. I think that I always have to work on burying that anxiety. Burying it. Because like I said, that 16-year-old kid who is hurt, he'll always be there. It's the making of you. Not to 16, not to 19. It's the making of you. It's never going to go away. It's the most impactful moments of your life. So I've just got to remember that. He'll always be chasing me, you know. But keep him back there. Always be in front of him. So what were some of the techniques that you learned in therapy that have been able to keep that dark shadow at bay?

14:50Well, the very first therapist I ever saw was a guy called Ashley, and it was Tom that put me on to him. Luckily, I had these brothers that were, you know, my bandmates that had been through similar things and could advise me a little bit. And he actually taught me how to breathe. Just breathe. And kind of, as cheesy as it sounds, just sense yourself. What can you smell? What can you taste? And just breathe. And that really helped. But then what was weird about that, a couple of years later, that then became a trigger. So my wife would feel me like going,

15:28and it was literally not smooth. I'd be like, like this. that became a trigger then and I had to stop doing that which is weird right because something that used to help me so much became something that I think because I healed through that right maybe when I went back to doing it it brought a feeling of me back at that time and I think that the day that you first was the name of the first therapist actually the day that you made that decision yeah that's a really significant day in someone's life so take us to the week or two before that moment what was life like on a daily basis at that point?

16:01It was butterflies, bad butterflies in your tummy. It was tight chest. It was real tight throat. It was the kind of breathing that wasn't smooth. It was real jerky. And everything was what if, what if, what if, what if. Like here today I would be thinking what if there wasn't a toilet nearby just in case I had an anxiety attack I need to go and hide in the toilet. I'd always find a hiding spot. I'd have a banana and a Coke in my bag just in case I had a sugar dip. I was thinking it was all that crazy stuff and I found that comforting sorry I got a banana in my bag I can get the tube today just in case I had that feeling so it was this big question what if that happened what if I have that feeling again it was always I became scared of that massive tornado and all these safety behaviours that you put in place as well yeah I think without getting ahead of myself in everything I do my bar is set so high so with healing my bar set I want to heal straight away whereas actually in healing it's the small steps which in everything it's the small steps I didn't learn guitar just like that you know I learned it from playing since I was six years old playing the worst riff ever to then being 38 and still working on it and ripping out two nights at the O2 arena it's just little steps over the years that you do and I think it's the same with healing and same with dealing with I was obviously hurt by something and traumatized and needed rebalance or reprogramming should I say I feel like that's the way to put it I needed reprogramming and that's what I did by going to speak to a professional and I think that's what a lot of people put off is that these guys are professional you know it's great talking to friends it's great talking to your loved ones because my wife didn't understand why I had to go at first she was like why do you need to talk to somebody why can't I help you but I needed that one professional actually many professionals over my time just to reprogram me and podcasts helped me massively is that right massively before we come on to that though there's an i'm interested in that in your response to your wife asking that because i can imagine that that's a big barrier for a lot of men that you feel like people around you are not enough to help and therefore you don't want to hurt them so of course we prioritize their feelings above our own needs how did you respond to your wife when she said that i think listening to podcasts before I realized that I needed help and the podcast like people like Mel Robbins you know brilliant yeah people like her just put it could take one sentence just to change your way of thinking and it's so impactful there was a lot of CEOs that had businesses that felt the same way as me and I just related to these people over the over the years of listening to podcasts and I found it so helpful that's when I went to my wife and I was like I think I need to go back to therapy because I had the Ashley guy when I was 18, but then I feel like I needed it again.

18:55And I felt like, how many times can my wife hear me talk about this? And I didn't want it to get too much for her. Right. The other thing that I think is very difficult for a lot of people to comprehend when they're in a position that you're in, and you mentioned CEOs there, people would look at a CEO and go, well, why are you anxious? Why have you got mental health challenges? You're running a business that's massively successful, turning over a huge profit, looking after loads of stuff. People from the outside will go, are you joking me, Danny? You've dreamt your whole life to be in a band. No, no, you're in a band.

19:27You're in a successful band. You've had number ones. You were the youngest number one album, beating the Beatles to that number. You've stayed relevant for a long time. You've been on all these amazing TV shows. Everything you touch seems to be successful. Does the external success make the anxiety better or worse? That's a great question.

19:48i think for me personally that me makes all of that better and what i mean by that is if i'm in a good place i can enjoy all that yeah i love all of that success to me is like a real life certificate of how well you're doing great let's do it but when you've got hurt when when you're hurt when you're traumatized when you're going through something that you can't quite understand all of that is the worst place to be and it doesn't matter none of that matters and it's even more confusing that you're getting success and it's not helping yeah I remember being on stage and my you know I was going through losing my granddad and going through this next trigger for anxiety and I remember being on stage and I was like it's the first time I've been on stage and I'm feeling completely numb like complete this doesn't mean anything to me and i knew then i was like oh my god what like what does this mean because normally what i would think is i need to go out there and put on a show like people have got other shit going on that i need to go out there and make their life better but actually how can i do that when my life isn't right i'm not right but that's where music is beautiful because I could go on there and I could really almost get too emotional.

21:14There's a song called The Heart Never Lies and I was singing it for my nan that night and I got too emotional in the song. So there's that as well. Obviously I started going like I can't sing it because it's, you know, you gotta, you gotta. Is that that lovely acoustic song that you play? No, which one's that? I've got a lovely one that you play when you're in Norwich. Not Alone. Oh, everything just goes dark. Yeah, yeah, Not Alone. That was when I was getting the train down um on my own to Manchester and um just going for it literally just going for it and I was thinking I was questioning I got brought up Catholic and I was questioning what does all this mean blah blah what I believed in then when I was going down to this you know Tom Fletcher's house to write some songs that could potentially be successful was well I believe in the universe is falling into place for me.

22:04Let's just go. Let's just go with it. And I wrote a song about it and it was like, I'm not alone because this music, this is guiding me. I mean, I've gone off track a little bit here, but this is guiding me to, it's almost like sometimes people look and try and connect what's happening in front of them. Whereas what I do is I go for it and don't try and connect it. Look back and go, oh yeah, that happened, but that led me onto there. That led me onto here. That show I just did led me onto this podcast. What? You know, it's stuff like that. That's a way better way of looking at it for me. I think it's so interesting.

22:37And I think the other thing that we need to talk about is that you can't remove the trauma from the success, right? There's a great quote by, in the book Iron John, Robert Bly writes, where a man's wound is, is where the genius will be. And I wonder whether you've had any conversations or some thought about the fact that some of these traumas that you've gone through have actually been part of the catalyst of success, part of the energy source. Don't get me wrong. I have written some of the best songs when I'm hurt. Absolutely. And here's the thing about it, is when you talk about something, other people relate and feel a little less lonely or feel connected with you.

23:17When you write a song for yourself or to one person, you speak to many. There's so many songs that we try and write and it's like, let's try to speak to the many. Whereas actually speaking to one person speaks to the many because we're all different. Yeah, but that's what makes us the same. yeah you know and that's why we all connect through music i think that's what's amazing about music the music for me has always been the meditation the kind of the the constant in my life yeah obviously having a family now that's the next constant thing and trying to be trying to learn from what my dad did you know put it into my my family environment so the trauma is like you said it is a catalyst for it it makes you it makes you write stuff down it'll make you i actually wrote a solo album and it was almost a very therapeutic way of writing because i actually wrote about my dad and home and stuff like that and i was suddenly like i didn't realize i felt that way about that um but it was my way of just dealing with it i suppose i'm writing it down i'm getting it out there you remember some of the stuff you wrote that made you think okay that's I mean, some of them's out there.

24:30There was a song called Is It Still Love? And it was my mum, I was trying to get, I remember Springsteen saying something like, I always try and write from the perspective of, I put myself in the character's shoes, so it doesn't always have to be my perspective. So I wrote it from my mum's perspective. There was that song, then there was this song that was called Last Mistake, and that's actually never been released. I just wrote this song about the very first time I went home, and I saw this house that used to be a home and it was explaining how cold it felt and dark. And I know it sounds ridiculous, but my dad used to do the little things like the DIY and like the curtains were falling down or the shelf was hanging down.

25:08I was like, oh, my mum's here on her own. And I used to feel so much empathy. I used to feel guilty for having a good relationship because my mum didn't have one. Who's my mum cuddling at night? I felt guilty for cuddling at night. My mum's not got anyone. And I had this massive, like, I wasn't living my life because I felt so much pain for my mum and it's ridiculous but it's just the way it's not ridiculous at all why would it be ridiculous because it was hurting me too much and it was you know when anxiety hits you know for me it was like a computer list of all these questions and it's overwhelming and suddenly I'm like and then that's when the anxiety comes in because I've got so much going on or so many feelings I don't understand that it has to come out somewhere.

25:58And, you know, I'm going to bed at night. Why should I feel guilty for having a beautiful relationship when my mum doesn't have one? You know, I just felt like I was a little bit silly thinking, but I don't know, maybe I'm just like everybody else. But I think there's a really interesting pattern of what you described when you said about you were getting the train down from Manchester and going to Tom's house, and then you channeled that into a song that you could explain afterwards. You've said about sometimes you'd have the emotion and then you could understand why you'd had it later. I think there's something about just allowing yourself to feel and then being able to articulate it.

26:33And song obviously helps you do that. Are there any other ways that you've found that you can basically be able to process and understand these quite powerful emotions? For me, it's about sitting down and giving time to it to talk about it because I don't write stuff down. the only time I write stuff down is when I'm writing I don't know how I can write songs to be honest because I never write I don't write I was terrible at English at school so I don't know how I can write but I can and I think it's because I can channel my this is the thing I can channel my emotions through music more than I can in everyday life that's what's mad about it well it's not I mean we had James Blunt here that spoke about he'd gone to public school he was a boarder where emotions were seen as a sign of weakness.

27:23And it was only later on that he learned to write really powerful music about his love for his own father and some of the experiences he's had in war. But that was the only place he found was an outlet to say things that were unsayable in the world he occupied. See, that's really interesting. I've always, this is what I'm just thinking about now, is like being in a pop band, you only get those moments, maybe like when you're touring like when you've seen us on tour and I get to play that acoustic song and we put it on an album a lot of it is escapism in the music we write you know like obviously I'll never be good enough for that girl five colours in her hair you know this punk rock girl that we want to get with it's all that and it's all great but how I grew up on music I grew up on blues music and you know The Who and then I got into Oasis and all that and they're talking about real and it's not that we don't talk about real stuff we do because that was our life but it's only later on that now we're all starting to connect like with our emotions a bit more and being brave enough to write about it.

28:24Because it is a scary thing. You know, we felt protected by like playing these songs that were written about relationships that were kind of, you know, teen angsty rather than feel anxious about me, dad leaving. We don't, you know, but I am writing that song. You have to be kind to yourself as well, don't you? You have to be kind to, yeah, of course you do. but now I think it's um it's all right to to write about that stuff now and I think the music industry is way more accepting of it in the pop world so you seem in a really good place at the moment yeah is that fair to say absolutely I mean it's definitely I there's definitely things that I've learned about in the jungle that I need to just talk about what are they understanding myself understanding my emotions I still don't do that because I think understanding my emotions will help me to communicate better and i just need to work on that human brain's mad isn't it i mean you think this is how many years since your your dad left your family 21 years yeah have you thought about the fact that after 21 years and lots of therapy and lots of time spent writing songs that have been really helpful and lots of professional success and some brilliant private success with your amazing kid and your beautiful wife right and you haven't yet found the answer necessarily, is the answer just to pick up the phone to your dad?

29:48No. Why not? Because I don't know him anymore. He doesn't know me. And I don't recognise his voice. I don't know him. It's really difficult. Have you grieved for him then? I think so, yeah. I think that's why I gravitate to, you know, like Baza in the jungle. Basil was one of them in the jungle. I felt like I had a dad in the jungle. He's like, he's got my back. Don't argue with me because Basil will have you kind of thing, you know. And then, your best mate, that's why I loved the football so much. It was that kind of lad time. It was these, it was that thing like, you know, that you'd have with your dad.

30:28Going to the football, doing this, doing that. I do crave that to this day a lot. But I try and find it in other outlets, you know. See, I'm interested in this because there's a billion book if you get a chance to read it by an Australian psychologist called Steve Biddulph. He wrote a book called Manhood. And he talks about some of these challenges. But one of my favourite quotes in it is he said that boys who are denied appropriate physical affection and praise from their father or other males while they're growing up seem to then have difficulty forming male friendships. In fact, they have a huge distrust of other men.

31:03And yet you're telling us about the strength of these relationships that you can build with the bandmates, the people in the jungle how have you broken that cycle then to be able to build these trusting relationships with other men? Because I look back I think it's because I look back and I have fond memories of my relationships with all these mentors that were men around me I had a great relationship with my dad it's just I find conflict really hard I find confrontation quite hard maybe I'm to blame a little bit as well it's just easier blocking it out I understand that but there's also this I suppose relates more to my dad is that I didn't choose to be born he chose to have me and I have this thing of like I could never leave my son and I'd be fighting to speak to him but yet my dad isn't and I just kind of like okay well I just need to if he isn't fighting for me why should I bother kind of thing and maybe that's not right but the reality of it is I think it would bring more problems in my life if I had him back in my life so I have to block it out and I have to say that's over but you described your childhood where you would try and smooth over conflict you'd be like let's have a good time let's all go out and get on rather than deal with the source of whatever the conflict was at that moment and as somebody that's managed to break so many patterns a behavior it seems to me that you're still continuing that pattern of trying to either ignore it or block out conflict rather than go to the source of it and and face that and that's probably another thing i need to talk about because if i understood how i felt about something i could go and speak to someone about it whereas i'm still scarred in approaching somebody with the with my feelings because i've always had shutdown or conflicts or i've only seen negative things happen from telling your feelings and i'm still learning to this day i mean my wife's a good example she's taught me that talking about stuff it's good yeah but it's not just talking about stuff it's actually telling someone how you feel you know and there's a way to no one can blame you for the way you feel the way you act and the way you react yeah but if you feel a certain way at least you can do something about it and go, I can help you, or I'm sorry you feel that way, or whatever it is.

33:35But I have only had overreaction throughout my whole life when I've ever said how I feel. You've spoken about your dad has left, and you've decided not to have this confrontation with him because it hurts too deeply, and yet you've been on the receiving end of people that love you, being willing to lean into that discomfort. to maintain the relationship and yet it's not something you're willing to do for your own dad to try and understand what was going on for him yeah it's true it's a good point it's a very good point i mean i have i have these realizations quite often when i speak to amazing people um and i i i literally i'm one minute i'm like here's the thing i said i said one i said one time I was like, I just kept saying, I could just, I just love a beer with me dad.

34:31I don't want to talk about, you know, on all the nonsense that went on, how you felt about mom. Cause he did do that. He used to sit me down and be like, your mom's doing me a deal. I was like, mate, I don't want to know that. 17. I don't want to know any of that. So, um, he did after about 20 years, I think last year, he was like, I'm coming over for a birthday. it's my mate's birthday in Horwich in Bolton because he lives in Spain now so I'm flying over do you want to meet for a beer? I'm like and I ran into the lounge I said darling he texted me what I wanted him to say like you know let's go for a beer and I was buzzing about it and I said yeah cool right let's say maybe we'll meet at King's Cross because you can maybe get the train down I could meet you in London and there's loads of places to go it's a great area and I was like great I'm actually going to go for a beer with my dad this is all I've ever wanted and then I get this text from my dad going, hello son, I've only got dust in my pockets right now.

35:28Unfortunately, I'm not going to make it down to London, but I'll still be going to my mate's birthday. And I just went, oh, cheers. So he can still go to his mate's birthday. Yeah. But I just didn't need to know it. And every time I talk to him, it's like, you know, it's mentioning, oh, I've been carrying the, he used to own a pub and the last time I spoke to him was when I got engaged and I thought here we go because I don't want any of that like is dad coming to the wedding I'll ring him and say dad I just got engaged he's like alright congratulations son kind of thing I was like woah your voice sounds weird because I've not heard it for so long and then I said how are you are you well are you that's all I really want to know yeah I'm alright you know my back's gone because I've been carrying barrels up and down this pub up and down the stairs and you know they're 500 quid a barrel I know it's not much to you and I was just like mate it's not the way to communicate with me you don't know me anymore and it's just like that's what kind of when I was trying to make our relationship closer those moments made it more distant you know I think it's really easy right particularly from the outside for us to sit here and think oh it must be a weakness that you can't pick up the phone to your dad and try and repair some of the things that are going on or try and have a conversation that you need to have but I think the more that you talk the more it's clear that it's actually a strength that you know what protects you and looks after you.

36:53There is also a moment in life where the answer doesn't necessarily lie in going back to where the root of the problem was. And actually the answer lies elsewhere, and I think the fact that you're searching for that is really brilliant, and hopefully you'll find it. And there is a real power in relying on other people to fill the void. And just because someone like Barry McGuigan is not your dad, and just because you met him on a reality show, and just because you spent time in the jungle with him, doesn't mean that he can't provide something that you need in your life. And actually, I had a message earlier from someone.

37:25I'll play this to you quickly. Morning, Jake, and morning, Danny. It's such a privilege to be able to say something about Danny Jones and my time in the jungle with him. The first time I met him was when he jumped out of that helicopter and done a B-line for me. What a superb young man he is. such an optimistic kid, always looks on the bright side of life, always thinks of things in a positive way. He's so amazingly talented, great voice, great personality. And all of these things have been developed through hard work. And it's interesting that he's on the High Performance Podcast because that's what he is.

38:10He's a high performer. He's been a great success his whole life. but he constantly works at it and he is a fabulous human being and I'm delighted to be able to call him my friend. Have a good one. God, what a legend! Do you know what? He's just a diamond, an absolute diamond. And to realise, like we've only obviously spent 24 days together intensely and to come out with a relationship like that and to, I feel like I can call him. it's two in the morning I just called Bazis mate I've got a problem and why is it like what does he like what are the qualities that you see in him that obviously resonate so deeply do you know what I don't actually know I just gravitated to to him when I saw him because I love boxing I knew Barry was on the show I was like mate let's do it you know so I grabbed him as my partner to start with and I think it was that fatherly figure like I wanted that do you know what I didn't know what I wanted but I just gravitated to him and someone looking out for me patting your back when you know it's that because I've had best mates that have done that but I think that having that gap missing in my life with you know no father figure I think he was my father figure and I do gravitate I get on with like those father figures maybe it's more of a a way of talking to them that they understand because they've got the life experience and they've got advice because I love getting advice from people I love getting that energy and like what would you do because straight away I was asking him, what would you say to me?

39:46You know, I've got a six-year-old kid. You've been through all this. You've lost your daughter. What do you say to me now? And he's like, mate, no job is worth the money than time with your kid. Yeah. Time with your kid is absolutely precious. And I'm practicing that right now. Like, you know, just even the mornings and the evenings, I put my phone away and I just spend it with him. And we, you know, he might be bowling on the Nintendo Switch or whatever, but I'm just watching him because he wants me to watch him. I'm not in the background just going, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm trying my best. I still have those moments where I am on my phone and I'll be like, yeah, just one second, mate.

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42:37I saw a great quote once that said, if you don't listen to your kids when they come to you with small things, then they will never come to you when it's the big things. And what you'll realise in years to come is that for them, even the small things were the big things. Absolutely. I think it's such a brilliant line. And I suppose it leads me to look at the year you've just had, which on any level is incredibly successful, right? You should be so proud of what's happened this year. Thank you. But that must come at our costs. And I wonder what those costs are. Yeah. So I had this plan of like, let's just bosh it in some 40.

43:17Like we all, you know, anyone who's successful, like the reason we're successful is because we work hard and we get obsessed with what we do. And I think over the years, it's managing time on my, what I find pride in, time on my profession. You know, you can't have everything. I saw this diagram recently, this triangle diagram of like family and relationships, health and profession. And you can never have all three booming. You know, something's got to take a backseat. You can have a balance between all of them, but I can't be like, you know, bodybuilder playing a show and have the best family relationship you can't do it all so you know something has to compromise but what has compromised over the years is time with friends time with my son time with my wife that does it's not that it takes a back seat it's just we never find time to do it and I think that that is that's what makes me happy as well and I've just got to remember that and I remember Alan Alan Tyrone, should I say.

44:26He did an amazing analogy and I don't know if it made the edit but he said, the way I look at my life is like I'm spinning plates and I've got three, I've got family, I've got my career and I've got, I think he said something like golf. And he said, I'm just slowly spinning them all. I'm not going woo-woo-woo and then forgetting about the other one. I'm just slowly spinning them all so they don't fall off. but yeah compromise with friends and family um and again another thing that barry's taught me is is that time's the only thing we run out of and you have to go and experience life and revo as well he gave me this sense of adventure for doing things just got a huge world out there that's ready to be explored and you know there's this thing i get home and i'm just comfortable i just want to stay home whereas actually sometimes you just gotta get out there and do things and so if If I asked you now, after all the amazing things that we've talked about over the last hour or so and the experiences you've had and the challenges you've had and the things you've been through, if I said to you, what is high performance?

45:29What do you believe it to be? I think that's changed over the years for me. I thought high performance was going... Here's the thing. I think high performance is a big window. Yeah. I think when you're young and you have less responsibilities, you can afford to go all in. Yeah, all in and give it your all and do something that you love because you're less likely to give that up. I think you create your own luck by being all in. I think luck is a part of it. For me, it's been luck because if I hadn't been there at that time, that might have not happened. You can create that environment. But I think later on in life, high performance for me is about balance.

46:13balance of health balance of happiness balance of mind so then i can perform at a high level because once that is all happy and that is solid i can go out there and perform to everybody and i can give my the best version of me there's no point me coming on here and okay i might say i need to talk about some stuff but i'm in a great place and i can go out there and not to say that musicians that are not in a in a good place can't go out there and perform on a high level because there's clearly you know amazing performers that can do that but i think high performance for me is about balance yeah and having the best version of me which is balance happiness and balancing the mind i think that's it i think that's what i think that's it for me have you got comfy with the fact that you're enough as well because the only thing i think about when i look at your year and i look at your life i'm like he's always looking for new projects he's always busy he's always on shows where people have to vote for him, right?

47:13He's runner-up in MasterChef. He wins The Voice. He wins Masked Singer. He wins I'm a Celebrity. You know you don't need people to vote for you to tell you that you're great. Thanks, mate. Do you know what? Without getting too emotional now, there was a moment after the show and I went in to check in with the, I think they call them therapists or the kind of welfare team. and it was in this little hut, and we walked out of the jungle, I'd just been crowned king, I was on an absolute high, had the crown on still, you know, I'm stinking, and I went in this little hut, and I got weighed, I was 70 kilos, came out at 70, so I lost six kilos, and I went into the welfare kind of tent area bit, and she said, how are you, and it was just me and the therapist, I was like I think I think I'm on top of the world but I think I'm all right and I hadn't really connected with anybody on the outside world by this point and she asked me this question she was like how do you feel after after the show is you know how do you feel being you know voted and I was like and I tried to digest it in the best possible way I was like no one normally I'm I'm protected by my vocals and my guitar and my band and McFly I've won the Brit award great but i'm diluted in that because there's four of us on the voice you're voting for the singer you know but i've just been on a show where someone's voted for me but not just me me when i'm hungry when i'm tired when i'm covering stuff that i don't want to be covered in it's the worst of me and she just said to me so do you feel enough and i just burst out into tears so oh my god maybe i am and and and for that like that was like one moment where i was like whoa I have never felt that emotion I've never asked that to myself or been asked that so for me that was like one of the most rewarding moments I think I've ever had in my life because yeah I think I am do you?

49:22yeah there's a lovely line you used earlier where a lot of your success was almost like a certificate of validation that you're doing well and yet it seems that when you've spoke to us here, whether it's the wild camping, whether it's the relationship with Barry, or whether it's that moment afterwards, it's about the private moments, the relationships, the stuff that the world doesn't have to see that brings the best reward for you. Yeah, it does. I mean, what's interesting is, don't get me wrong, we are self-conscious. High performers, I think, are self-conscious. because what I've learned about myself is like my bar is set so high that if I do a gig now it needs to be a star star like if I do one thing wrong it used to beat me up and it still will to this day but I've got to learn that that's enough you are enough that's enough that's okay we can make we're human we make mistakes you know when I got um selected for Soccer Aid I'm like right I need to sign for a semi-pro team I'm going to be Ronaldo I'm not expecting to be Ronaldo I'm not going to get a hat trick I'm like Danny lower your expectations please and I had this thing that like I had to be this amazing version of myself everywhere I went and I think what I've learned over the years is that you on that day however you feel is is enough that's fine you know but I think we do feel the pressure I do like pressure sometimes it does get overwhelming like my mum says pressure makes diamonds and I do get that and I love pressure and I thrive under pressure for example we can have four weeks of rehearsal I will learn everything in the last five days I've got sheets of lyrics in front of me for three four weeks and the last five days it all goes in and I'm just yeah I love pressure but what I've learned is that I don't need to have my bar set so high it's been good over the years to have that bar set high but it doesn't need to be every day, every hour, every minute of my life And how important is it for you to share these kinds of conversations I know you've got an official partnership with Calm right?

51:42Yes, yes, which is brand new recent like days old so yeah, I'm buzzing about that and I've done stuff with Calm before and you know I've had friends that have not been mentally well and it's scary you know the percent of of suicide and stuff like that so i really want to i feel a privilege actually to be involved in it and i never knew the impact of just me talking about my struggles and i always thought my struggles were like but actually even though they might not be as bad as yours they're actually worthy of being spoken about and i think that's what we've got to learn and I've been around so many friends of mine that will go mate you don't want to know how are you anyway how are you no no tell me yours because they just they need to be out there and I think that it's a pretty cool thing that I can I can be involved with Calm Now because I didn't realize the impact of me just talking about what I've been through has and how many people relate to it and how many people are going through that right now and I feel that you know it makes the world that little less lonely you know I love that and this conversation will also help so many people have you enjoyed it?

52:56loved it man that was a quick hour yeah it was there's so much more I know we need to do part two before we finish though how about some quick fire questions yes go on yeah

53:10the three non-negotiable behaviours that you think are most important in this world? I think number one for me is kindness. Looking back on my career and everything I've learned, I think kind of two answers here, repetition and consistency. For me, that's massive because for example, I put in every day in my diary, gym, gym, gym, gym, gym, walk, gym, something. One, it reminds me and two, it makes it non-negotiable. it's in my diary or I have to do it so that's for me that is consistency and repetition and again by lowering I don't have to go in there and be arny just go in there do some stretching go in there do something else just go in there every day for me that is massive and consistency then stops me from feeling the anxiety because the first thing I did when I felt anxious when I was 18 was I lowered my partying lifestyle and I got healthier I have a balance of it now but I'm not but that was one thing.

54:09If I have my body in good state, then everything else might build from that. So it was a building block for me. And then, I would say, there was a saying I heard, and I loved it, and it allowed me to lower my bar. It was just be 1%, just go for 1 % a day. Just 1 % better a day. It doesn't have to be 100. And I love that. Just 1 % better. So we have a high-performance app, which is sort of the home for all of our content, videos, and there's a brilliant feature on there called Habit Reminders so that you can set, a bit like you putting Jim Jim Jim in your diary every day, there's a Habit Reminder feature you can set so every day the app will send you a notification of the habit you want to be reminded about.

54:59What is the one daily habit that you've incorporated into your own life that's made a big difference? There's a few. I think one of them is sleep. I normally wear a whoop, but I've lost it in the house move. I got into mouth taping. It's been massive for me. Two reasons. What's that? So I tape my mouth at night. At night, yeah. Two reasons. Because you talk too much. Because I talk too much, yeah. I tape my mouth because it was actually Tom Jones that told me to do it a couple of years ago. When I'm in hotels and there's air conditioning, I did it for my voice. Right, okay. But then there's obviously other factors.

55:39You know, it's your filter through your nose, the way you breathe, everything slows down. You stay in a deeper sleep. You stay in more REM sleep. It helps your jawline, all of these things. And I was like, get me some mouth tape. So yeah, I started doing that and I sleep better. I don't wake up at night. I feel more refreshed in the morning. I try and get some sort of daylight. I mean, it's hard nowadays, but sleep for me is massive. Just trying to get my eight hours in because I can function. and I'm, there's other things like working out and stuff is massive for me because I feel like priority for me is sleep and exercise.

56:15Once I've done something, whether it's a walk, whether it's even I started doing reformer athletic Pilates, something. So when I come home, I'm more patient with my kid. I'm a better husband. I'm better in everyday life because I've got all the right chemicals going around, you know, they've been released because I'm terrible in the morning. I'm a night owl. So I've always got to fight that. I want to stay up and write music and I come alive at night and that's good in a studio atmosphere. But I think for me now, it's about good sleep and just some movement. And then, you know, at the weekends, you know, I can go mad.

56:54I live by this 80-20 as well. 80 % good, 20 % bad. I need to have some bad. So what's the bad? So yeah, Monday to Friday afternoon. it's like good diet and then you can enjoy yourself at the weekends and that's balance that's my balance that's my balance balance is key guys what's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness greatest weakness is right now not understanding some emotions because that doesn't allow me to communicate like I said before I wish I could communicate that better and I'm trying to that's what I'm going to go and talk about next is like I wish say i get i get this thing of like like i had a mind blank earlier i get that a lot with if i'm feeling emotional i don't know how to to say explain what i'm feeling yeah um it was very similar to why i got into production i couldn't explain what what i was trying to the sound i was trying to get because it was an emotion so i'm trying to understand so i can go actually this is what I mean my greatest strength I think is just my personality and I just you know try and find the good in everything rather than the bad and I love people's energy and I get charged off other people's energy I love that what a great thing to say my strength is my personality you're the first person that's ever said that in over 300 episodes is he really?

58:16yeah but I think it's really is that a I think it's brilliant imagine if we could all be in a place where we go the thing that's strongest in my life is my personality because that's who you are that's who you are that's great final question my laugh I'm not laughing much here though you're one you're one golden rule to live in a high performance life I can only relate to how I've lived my life and I always live my life with something good is always around the corner success is literally through that door and I feel like I've seen so many people have this long battle with trying to be successful and all they need to do is just open that door and give it one more go because it's just behind that wall and they give up at that point so just keep thinking that this is how it's meant to be.

58:58It's not meant to be easy. If something's hard, it means it's right. That's how I think. So yeah, just always think that something good is always around the corner. It will happen for you. Listen, I love your optimism. You have to be. Well, I think you do, particularly with some of the things you've been through. Like optimism is the thing that makes you have hope and without hope, we're all lost. Absolutely. Can I have one more thing? Yeah, of course. That I do. for me personally, visualization is massive. Go on, Samuel. So, okay, here's the fourth, for this year, my 21st anniversary, so any gig I do, I visualize it, I go through the, I go through the set list, and I'm thinking, it's what keeps me up at night, but it's what is, for me I think, is one of my strengths.

59:47I visualize it, I come up with scenarios, I'm like, what if that happened? Oh, I'm not prepared for that, and it helps me prepare, because I make up this mini movie in my head. for the mass singer i made up a mini movie in my head i visualized it and i'm going what if this happened what if that i've got to do a celine dion song because that i go crazy i bet no one's thought about doing more female based songs it helps me make these decisions for the voice i go oh what if that we need a single like this what if we had a pitch like that what if tom wrote a musical and i visualize it because it helps me prepare i put myself in that situation for i'm a celeb it was more negative it's like oh my god like what's it going to be like i didn't know what it was going to be like it wasn't my strength but all i thought is just be yourself all the time don't be scared to be yourself and i and i and i made these mini movies up in my head and for me that helps me prepare for that moment brilliant and sometimes i've gone this has happened before and it's come it's happened the way it happened in my head and when do you do it like do you find a specific time or place to create these mental movies?

1:00:53It's normally just that moment where I'm sleepy on the sofa, we've all had it, right? There's some point in our brain that goes, I'm watching the 40 or whatever, I'm going, I'm falling asleep, I need to go to bed. From going off that sofa upstairs, my brain comes alive. And that's when I start going. And I'm laying in bed and I'm just going, oh yeah, and I start making these mini movies up and that's the time. like literally half an hour before I go to bed. Danny, I must have known you for the best part of 20 years. That was the most powerful conversation. I'm so glad we've had it. Thank you so much, man.

1:01:28Mate, thank you. Thanks for having me. It was a privilege to come on, honestly. Thank you. Buzzing.

1:01:36Damien. Jake. A very emotional conversation with someone who's been on a remarkable journey. And I love the fact that he feels strong enough, able enough, and eloquent enough to come on a show like this and talk about where he's been, where he's at and what's happened to him. Well, you've got a unique vantage point, Jay, that you've known him for 20-odd years. Yeah, but you know, I've known the performer. So I will often go and see Danny at a gig or a performance and he's just like, hey, great to see you. Like always the nicest guy. You know, you'll be in his dressing room beforehand. The whole band are like that.

1:02:10They're just, I think because they're a bit older now, they're really open and really kind, really friendly. but if you'd have said to me before he went into I'm a celeb as Danny got any issues with anxiety I would have said absolutely not I would have said he's one of the most stable people I know you know no addiction problems he's never had really never been through the papers with any big salacious headlines he's just a stable happy kind funny guy right then you have that conversation for an hour and realise there's so much more going on and it's a brilliant reminder about the power of talking not just for people that listen to this conversation and it empowers them but I think for him as well you know he's only in this place because of therapy because of talking because of opening up yeah well his superpower is being able to write these really expansive emotive lyrics and yet the kryptonite in his life has been being unable to expand these emotions in his personal relationships and I'm really glad that he gave us some tips on how he's been able to do that and lean into some of the more difficult conversations to enhance the relationships both personally and professionally for him and what about at the end where we said what's your biggest strength and he says my personality I mean that is a moment where you think if you can say my personality is my biggest strength then you're in a good place and I think he is and I'm so pleased yeah it was a real delight to hear somebody speak so openly on such a on such a topic that lots of men do struggle with and you know I'm really grateful for him being willing to come and make that leap and trust us to have that conversation absolutely cheers mate thank you mate Well, that's it for today's episode of High Performance.

1:03:47Big thanks once again to Danny for joining us. If you would like to find out more about his work with Calm, then you can visit thecalmzone.net. And if you'd like to watch these episodes in future, then why not give the High Performance app a go, where as well as giving you early access to all our interviews, we've also got a brilliant new habit reminders feature that allows you to save habits you hear in high performance episodes and then set reminders so you can stay accountable. Honestly, that feature is a game changer on the app, so do check it out. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you again soon for more from High Performance.

1:04:42Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just$5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary. At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success. Like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. you'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program plus career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals a different future is closer than you think with capella university learn more at capella.edu