Michail Antonio: How Therapy Saved My Football Career (E259)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. available now Roman Kemp the broadcaster opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health we see each other more than we see our families so we are going to ride for each other we are going to be out there and die for each other I was really struggling and how I grew up it was never a thing I thought therapy for crazy people therapy for people who can't control themselves and stuff like that but therapy changed my life I'm not the prettiest player I'm not technically the best but then I'm the top goal scorer at the club I'm second place when it comes to assists at the club I've got so many accolades at the club people call me a donkey all day but I get the job done That is footballer Mikel Antonio and this is High Performance the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet and you're about to hear a deeply personal honest and moving conversation with a football player talking in a way that I've not heard before.

1:05And if you're impacted by any of the topics in this conversation, please speak to your GP. And there are links to organizations who can offer help in the description to this podcast. I'm Jake Humphrey. And alongside Damien Hughes, we're about to learn from the stories, struggles and successes of an incredible guest, allowing you to get closer to your own version of high performance. As we welcome Mikel Antonio to the show. First, a few quick messages from our valued partners who allow us to offer you this content totally free. If you're listening on the High Performance app, enjoy the additional content that we've got here, especially for you.

1:42And if you haven't yet downloaded the app, do so now and you can enjoy that extra content from Mikel absolutely free.

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2:34Only at McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary. This episode is brought to you by Opera Air, the first browser with mindfulness at its core. Now, most of us spend hours every day online, but how often do we pause to take care of ourselves whilst we're doing it? And that's where Opera Air comes in. It's a lightweight, fast, secure browser built not just for productivity, but for your well-being. With Opera Air, mindfulness is built right in. You'll find free breathing exercises, guided meditations, and soundscapes with ambient sounds, lo-fi music, and binaural beats, all designed to help you focus, relax, and even spark creativity while you browse.

3:21mikhail welcome to the show thank you for having me what is high performance what is high performance i think anything where you're working at the top of any type of game or in life as long as you're working at the top then you're working in the high performances so in the years that you've spent in football getting all the way up to the premier league where you operate now what's the biggest thing you've learned about finding your own version of high performance delivering at your own very best level consistently for me is the self-belief for me is knowing how good you are because whenever you're working at the top there's so much people around you are always going to have opinions and having opinions on you and things that you do but as long as you have the self-belief and know that you're doing things right and know when you're not doing things right then it was a oyster resilience is such a big thing in football you know we're having this conversation a few days before the end of the season you know that your manager is leaving with just a couple games left who knows what your future holds there seems to be a constant conversation in the in the media about the future for michael antonio so how do you learn to deal with uncertainty like does it sit easy with you um i think it's something that's been part of my life for my whole life obviously growing up I didn't I never went to an academy um I didn't have much funds growing up either so it's just having to deal when I was going to school I went to school in not the best areas there's loads of gang violence and stuff like that and there were people getting stabbed and stuff around I didn't know when I was if I was gonna get into a fight or someone's gonna try and rob me so my whole entire life has always been on certain weather I constantly had had my head on the swivel so I feel like that has prepared me for football just constantly got my head on the swivel constantly need to know what the next best thing and what constantly need to know what I need to do and is that not exhausting 100 % 100 % what I find crazy is my in my career I've had such a great career I've made a good living for myself but I always go back to them times thinking I don't want to go back there and that drives me and that keeps pushing me to keep going whereas I'm 34 now most people be like you'll be on a decline but people are starting to notice that in my older years I'm probably if not getting better I just keep going because I just want to keep pushing myself and making myself better so when you say your head's on the swivel what are you looking at and what you're looking for when my head's on the swivel it's just constantly wanting to make myself better constantly wanting to be valued, constantly trying to make set new targets and want to reach them.

6:02I feel the time you stop setting yourself targets, it's the time you go on a decline. But then you also need to know when it's time to stop. Like it's better to stop when your body's working than when your body's shut down and everyone's noticed that you're just scrambling. So let's talk about your mindset right now, where you're at. I mean, if I think of any player in the Premier League who's had the most speculation about their future the last few years, it feels like it's you. How close have you come to leaving West Ham? Very close. I think at least it was three, four years. What people don't realise, I've been at West Ham now for nine years and every single summer I've been linked to be moved away.

6:45The first time I signed for West Ham, I didn't play for three months. The January came up, I could have left on loan and gone back to the Championship. I chose not to because I wanted to stack myself down into, in the Premier League and believed I could do it. Then that summer came. I had a good stint playing right back. I had links from top six clubs to play right back. I didn't want to play right back. So I refused to do that. I wanted to be a winger. Then I started the season at right back. Just to buy in a top six club. Like, are we talking the big names? I'm talking top six. Definitely top six.

7:24but it was right back and I believed I was good enough to be an attacking player in the Premier League I didn't want to play right back maybe I might have been financially better but I wouldn't have been enjoying my football and I think in life I feel you need to enjoy what you're doing instead of just chasing the money and after that the summer after that summer after that I managed to get right wing I was playing right wing and I was linked away but that was to a foreign club some after that i my agent is angry at me because he told me to sign a two-year deal had an unbelievable season playing right wing and then a top six club came for me again as a right winner i'm not too sure we're about to say names so i'm not i think you can yeah my agent's like just stuff just don't say that he's like save that stuff is that right yeah so save that stuff for your autobiography that's what you mean so another top six club came in for me at right wing but I got injured I tore my hamstring so that one fell through and just from there I've always had to like fight my place new managers came in then they wasn't too sure about me because I know it I can say it myself I'm not the prettiest player I'm not technically the best but then I'm the top goal scorer at the club I'm second place when it comes to assists at the club.

8:53I've got so many accolades at the club. People call me a donkey all day but I get the job done. So I've just constantly been so unsure with everything that's going on that it's just that's why when I say keep your head on the swivel that's why I constantly have to do it because I always feel that if I don't perform I might not have that next opportunity for the next team to come and get me and then I might be working my way down. Will you explain for those of us not in the world the football then how when you hear speculation that a big six team is in for you how does that happen how do you know whether that's a genuine inquiry or whether it's just newspaper talk so i have an agent and my agent is like a brother to me i used to play with him the craziest thing is i used to play with him when i was younger at two in the mitchin so he'll get a phone call from a club saying that we're interested then my agent will speak to West Ham and see whether they want to do it or not.

9:50And then sometimes he tells me and sometimes he doesn't because he doesn't want to distract me from my football. Unless he feels that it's something that will drive me, then he will tell me. And in all of those close calls, was there ever a time where West Ham either accepted a bid or said to you, yeah, you can go? No. What is quite crazy about West Ham is, what I find quite crazy is most of the summers, they've gone to me, you're not for sale. And then there was a couple summers where like, you can leave. And then, we get a club interested and they'll be like, now we're selling you. You ain't going.

10:30Like, last summer was the closest I've ever came to leaving. How close? Had someone there willing to pay over the odds than what the club's arts for. But then obviously, I started the season on the high and then, they just literally pulled it away from me. Honestly, I love being at the club so I'm not disappointed but like it was it was a crazy one because they said I can go so I got my head around it that I'm leaving started the season on the high because I was like you know what I need to show these people because obviously the club can get rid of me they want to go young they want some new fresh a new fresh striker in so I was like I need to show people so I can get these bids in get someone to come collect me obviously started the season two good goals some good performances and obviously because I'm doing that for the club the club gone what would I sell you?

11:17And they kept me. So how do you balance then the idea of being relatively selfish and putting your own interests first with the idea of still being a team player of having to do the hard yards and contribute to the teammates? Like, how does that process work for you? Well, that's football. Football is 11 individuals just trying to become one team. But you are the individual on that pitch. You need to concentrate on yourself and your performance while working for your team. Football is a very selfish sport. Whereas you care about you, you care about your stats, you care about everything that you're doing.

11:54But in the back of your mind, you know you're working for the team. You know you're working for your teammates. But in the back of your mind, again, it's reaching your goals. Because end of the day, as long as you're performing well, then you're doing well for yourself and you're going to be doing well for your family. But as a striker then, can I just explore that topic in more detail? that people listening to this, like myself, would go, so if you're in a position where you can maybe take a shot yourself and your odds of scoring are 30%, but you could square it to somebody else that might be in competition for a role, how do you overcome that selfish urge to still put the team above your own interest?

12:36To be honest, you see it every now and then on the pitch. There's times where players take the shot because it's about them getting the goals because goals are the stats and goals are the most important thing in football. And then people like assists, like Kieran De Bruyne, but then assists are just not that important as goals. So in that situation, it's all down to how important you are and you believe in the team because it's about getting that stage higher, getting those three points. And to be fair and honest, the majority of the time, people care about the three points people care about the team more themselves you might be working for yourself but as a team you want to get as high as possible in the league and that's the ultimate goal and to be honest if you think about it the higher you go in the league the bigger the bonuses you get so you're all helping yourself anyway so you said that you know West Ham say we want to bring in a new young fresh striker right do they actually have that conversation with you and say like we're going to go for someone else or do you just find out when we find out when it's in the papers or they turn up at the training round no to be honest you can feel the vibe no one comes to you go we're going to go young but you can feel it as you get older you can see that you kind of kind of you can feel that they're kind of edging you out type thing and then you see that you're constantly you see that you're they're getting linked to more and more strikers and you see that they're getting younger a different style of play then you see the type of players that are coming in whereas is it your how you play or is it different um it's all about the different philosophies because every manager's coming to play completely different Pellegrini is completely different to David Moyes, Simon Bisch was completely different to Pellegrini so it's all on their philosophies and whether I fit into it.

14:27So there's so much then swimming around in the mind of a footballer when they say oh just concentrate on the game or when they criticize someone for being off form or missing a chance there's so much going on in a footballer's head that we don't see or understand i think 100 and the best time a player can play is when they're free is when they don't actually have to think about what they're doing on the field their brain just naturally takes over and they're not making any decisions on themselves they're just on the automatic and when a player starts thinking that's when you see that's when you see a lot of mistakes are made and things are forced because it's not your body's not free you're not relaxed you're quite tense and that's how it messes up so when people are going through stuff outside the football and there's other things on their mind that's when people are probably struggling the most and have you worked out then how you can create that sense of freedom what are the kind of things that you do to be honest it's difficult because every player have struggled with that situation there where things are happening outside where you you can't get away from doesn't matter um the situation but it's just having that fuck it mentality just push it to a side bury it deep until afterwards after the game then you can deal with it but obviously we're only human so you can't always do that so with total honesty then which is what this show is about when was the last time you feel you played with real true freedom real true freedom I would say when I was at Nottingham Forest and then I'll say in the last when I got back from my injury actually I'll say when I got back from my injury three months ago that's when I played with true freedom before that I was struggling with certain things where like obviously I was playing and I played from 2020 all the way through with no injuries.

16:28We've hardly gotten any time off because of COVID. So we kept playing the catch-up game. Obviously, I've been playing football for now 15, 16 years and it kind of got a bit like repetitive for me. So I kind of, I wouldn't say I felt out of love with it, but it just kind of got a bit on me. And I just, it's like disliking the game. and I was out there and you know it was one of the situations where you just kind of just needed to step away but because football is just constant you're constantly just in it and there's no way you step around and then when you step away from it there's people talking about it it's in your life 24-7 So explain then what you were not liking because you know my boy is outside as often as he can kicking a football just dreams of being a professional footballer as do millions of other young girls and boys what is it like then that feeling when you think I just don't love it or I've fallen out of love with it it's literally as soon as it becomes as soon as you start getting paid for it as soon as your life depends on it as soon as you have people constantly berating you and criticizing you it becomes a job so it doesn't matter how good it is it doesn't matter how if how much you love the game it becomes an actual job for you and when did you realize that you were starting to fall out of love with it was a certain moment when that awareness dawned on you it was i could tell you exact moment it was december 23 22 where i played the game um i think we even won the game but i didn't have the best of games and i was just like to myself i'm not enjoying football like i'm just during the game during the game i was like i'm really not enjoying this.

18:21I just felt quite negative, which I'm a very positive person myself. So I felt quite negative towards it and stuff, but I was trying to shrug it off and I couldn't. And then I finished the game, which the next thing I don't do is I never go on Twitter after a game. I never go on Instagram after a game. I normally just step away from it, especially if I had a bad game. But I saw myself, I was like, I need to go on it. I went on it. I just saw a lot of negative comments, like he's done, and he needs to finish, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I actually thought to myself, maybe I should. And then I was like, nah, pull yourself out.

18:57I'll keep going. I'll keep trying. I didn't score from December until I think it was March April times. And I just felt like run down. Before I got injured, I had a bad game. And I can't remember who it was. And then I went away with Jamaica because I was enjoying football with Jamaica for some strange reason. but I actually prayed for an injury I was like I just want to get injured I want to be injured I want some time off I don't know how long I want but I want time off away from football and then I went away with Jamaica and I did my medial you know that almost sounds like a challenge with your mental health really yeah definitely well because obviously it's all inside my own head I'm talking to myself.

19:44I'm trying to work it out. Obviously, best football you play is when you're free. And when you're free mentally is when you're free. And when we talk about people's mental health, you know, often it's just linked to depression. That's a mental health challenge. But there's so much else when we talk about elite sport and mental health that is going on there. And it's obvious that there was all kinds of things swirling around in your head. I mean, I listened to it. It sounds like it was quite a scary time. Oh, 100%. Because I was thinking to myself, I'm 33. I can't afford it. to be formed this way otherwise I'm not going to get another contract if I don't do it here and I keep performing like this where am I going to go next and I'll be on my downward spiral it's just the end for me it's just my football career over Who could you talk to?

20:27I started therapy in that period I started therapy because I was really struggling and how I grew up it was never a thing I thought therapy for crazy people therapy for people who can't control themselves and stuff like that but therapy changed my life tell us about love at first it's awkward i'm not gonna lie literally you sat in the room someone's there and goes how are you and your natural response is fine fine i'm all right and he's like end of the session so he's like but so why are you here like what's what's what's getting you down i was like to be honest like football i'm struggling with football i split up with my missus and these are the things where it was really I was struggling and I couldn't focus whereas my football was always my getaway from anything that happened in my life my dad died and stuff like that I went to football and I could black it out for the two hours that was there or the four hours that was there and on the football pitch I could black it out because that stuff but then my life was a bit turned upside down because obviously I'm spitting on my missus, my wife.

21:36And then I've also not performing on the pitch and things are just not going well for me. So I was just really struggling. And then I sat there and I spoke to him. And then I'm a person where I'd never cry. And as I was talking to him, I just burst into tears. Burst into tears. It was uncontrollable. And I'm not going to lie, that gave me some type of relief because i normally hold everything in and push it down and that gave me some real nice relief where i was like oh and then like my chest felt like clear and i just done sessions once a week every week just speaking to him trying to get everything off my chest so can you again without reaching confidences can you give us an insight into some of the lessons that they helped you unlock that brought you out of that that funk what is crazy is i always portrayed to be a very confident person always portrayed to be a person that was always got things right and but then what they's taught me was that i was a person that's basically always set myself targets always to be for missions because i always need something to be done i always need to be concentrating on something i can't relax within myself i always need to be busy and I don't want everyone to relax myself because when I'm on my own and when I am relaxing myself I don't she said I basically didn't like me because growing up there was a lot of traumas I dealt with so I avoid sitting within myself and that's one thing that I learned in viotherapy because it was true I constantly kept myself busy and whenever I didn't keep myself busy because I was living in London on my own.

23:23I hated it. I got bored. I was itchy. I was messaging people going, what are you doing? What are you doing? Let's go somewhere. Let's go for some food. Let's do something. I'm searching for people to do something with me. I never could just see it at home. And it was because you said something about my self-esteem. If something's about my self-esteem, I'm searching for something and there was something missing in my chest and my heart. And just to hear that, that set me off. like I was just I was in tears again it's a hard thing to hear though it's massive like I always believed I was the happiest person there is like you saw that in my personality you could see how I am everywhere so I thought that ain't me but as soon as she as soon as she was saying it to me I saw it like there were certain things that happened in my childhood whereas let's just say I struggled to make friendships when I was in primary school there was I was always when I was playing football I was always confident when I was playing football like no one could ever touch me but when it came to friendships I always had people but I was never really tight with anybody there was no one that was I would say was my best friend until I was like 12 and then that person kind of left so I always struggled to have that one bond other than my brother who was who was my brother and the day so that's brotherly love and there was other times when I was 14 I thought these people were my friends we went to school with them I actually I left my house I left from school I went to tooting them with them these guys end up stealing a bike I thought these people my friends I went to school the next day the people got caught with the bikes because I Obviously, we were wearing our school uniforms and they grouped up and said, say, Mikel did it.

25:18And I've been friends with them for three years, going to school every day with them. So I was like, I just made me mistrust people. So I just became a person where I was just dealing with things and just like, you know what, when anything happens, I push it down. I don't deal with it. I push it down. I don't deal with it. But there was a bit like your phrase that we come back to this, your head on a swivel. alerted me because that sounds like somebody in a state of hypervigilance all the time where's the threat where's the danger that you're constantly looking for and that eventually causes burnout that causes distress because your ability to just be comfortable sitting still is almost impossible when you're in hypervigilance and then you've gone into a world that demands hypervigilance because your manager's changing or somebody's criticizing you 100 and that's another thing that Faye Pee said to me he was like in school the playground behavior of kids whereas something happens it spreads around something happens it spreads around but then as you get older and most people most adults it stops because you're going to work and it doesn't really matter but when you are in football that playground behavior still goes on it's the exact same thing as when you're in school is when you're grown men we've had a really amazing conversation about mental health and therapy what would you say to someone that's listened to this conversation they're contemplating therapy but they're scared i think it'd be the best thing that you would ever do in your life i feel it's a life changer and i don't feel it's something that you should do just because you're down i think it's something you should do in life like it helps you to shape it helps you concentrate and helps you just line things up so even if things are going well for you in life i think it just helps you line things up what was the biggest thing that your therapist said that turned the lights on for you the biggest thing my therapist said to turn the lights off for me is my boundaries are too low that I need to raise my boundaries I keep allowing people in and allowing people to to step across my boundaries so easily and that's a part of me giving too much away and from that it kind of it has shaped me it has made me more resilient it has made me more like concentrate more and just be going like no no no because I'm so used to saying yes so when i was saying i'm resilient i'm about resilience as in people i don't allow people to get me down have you spoken about the therapy stuff often or not no so obviously therapy's only just been quite new to me he's still going to still going now yeah so therapy is quite new to me over the last so i said it was 2023 2022 december so what the december just gone so not this one the one before so so you've now been about a year and a half year and a half in therapy Do you think you'll carry on forever?

28:18I don't think I'll carry on forever because my therapist said that they always want to get you a stage where you no longer need them. What was the moment where you thought, I actually can't, I can't deal with this on my own anymore? It was just literally, my mind was just constantly racing. Just constantly racing, just thinking about what's going on in my football, thinking about what's going on outside it. and I just started to feel like I was just in a daze just living the life and everything just in the daze so it kind of just got to say like nah and then everyone I spoke to always had their opinion whereas it wasn't and their opinion wasn't really helpful because if I speak to someone who's my friend they are going to be on my side if I speak to someone else they're going to just be like having their opinion what's going on in their lives and try and shape it to that I should do something that they do.

29:15Everyone feels they should offer you advice. Yeah. And actually all you need is someone to listen. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? We interviewed a guy recently called Charles Duhigg who wrote a book about communication. And he said a great way to start any conversation with anyone is ask them the three H's. Do you want to be heard? Do you want help? Or do you just want a hug? And when you start thinking of it, we all go often people get their roles mixed up, don't they? They think they're trying to help. when actually you just want to listen 100 yeah and this year since i've been doing therapy when people come to me now because people speak to me and i'm like do you want me to give you advice do you want me just to listen or do you just want to rant and literally they'll be like but when i did it to someone the first time they're like that's a fucking great question that's a fucking great question where the fuck did you get that from and i'm like oh therapy because literally I don't want to just put because everything I'm going to say to you is something that's happened in my life and I'm going to portray it on you and that's my opinion and sometimes my opinion shouldn't be put on you because you're different to me and how you're going to do it it might be something completely different to what I want to do.

30:27I remember I did therapy a long time ago about 20 years ago and that question when they sit down and they say why have you come to see me and you start talking and then you get this thing and I'm going to cry and you're like this And then as you keep talking, then eventually you stop and cry. And then you don't stop crying. It's ridiculous. You know what, though? The feeling of freedom after. It just releases you. It releases everything. Like your heart just feels locked up like a stone. And then as soon as you cry, just like, oh, just releases. Unbelievable. And then you can't believe you were living like you were living.

31:09mate it's unbelievable like was it about your dad that unlocked it for you or no it was just literally going through the divorce and my football like obviously my miss was a massive part of my life yeah during my whole career and just going through that and just that stuff it just it just messed with me massively before therapy would you have been able to have this kind of conversation before therapy i would have had this conversation but I wouldn't be as open. Like, I honestly believe that there was a time before, there was one time that always opened up about when I was almost went into depression and this was the one situation where I was playing on the Pellegrini, one week I'll be starting, the next week I won't even be in the squad, the week after I'll be starting again, the next week I wasn't in the squad again.

32:00So it didn't even matter how I performed, it just kept rotating and I just couldn't, understand it in my own mind and it kind of set me under whereas now I can have the conversation with you where I can explain to you the reason behind I need therapy the reason behind what was actually going on in my life whereas before I'd be like I don't know like this just happened and how good is it to be able to talk like this it's unbelievable like to have the clarity to actually understand the problems in your life, to actually understand that these things that happened years ago, it's actually still having an effect on my life in the present day, which blew my mind.

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34:49Now there'll be people listening to this as football fans that maybe labour under the misapprehension that the best teams are like a band of brothers. They are people that have each other's back and have that friendship. And when they're hearing that we're acquaintances, not friends, can you tell us when you've been part of an environment where you feel it goes a bit deeper than just being acquaintances? To be honest, as soon as you step on that field, it doesn't matter if you're acquaintances, if we're family, if we're anything, because missuses or anything out there, we are one. We are fighting.

35:31You can see if one person runs up and one person is getting into a little squabble, the whole team's around. Because end of the day, we're all out there for one thing and we're all there to back each other to get that one thing and that's the three points we've been with each other every single day we see each other more than we see our families so we are going to ride for each other we are going to be out there and die for each other but then when you mentioned that example of Pellegrini where it sounds like you drop one week then you're in the team then you're not in again like have you had a coach that really invests time in creating that environment where everybody does feel part of it, does feel committed?

36:11To be fair, the gaffer, he's done a couple of things where he's taken us out, made us go to the theatre together. He brought us to Miami to have a team bonding time. Another manager who's done that, Brendan Rodgers, once a month or once every other month, he used to make us do go-karting and stuff like that. So we do do these things. Like I play paddle with Vlad, Thomas, Maxi, Alphonse every now and then. So we have these relationships. I've met so many footballs in my life where I was close to them while we were at the club. But then as soon as they've left, we've basically not spoken. Where friendships is a bond that can last forever.

36:52I feel acquaintances is something that is a part in time. It's so interesting you say this because I remember when I first started working with the players in my former job as a football host. I was like, who are you still mates with from your playing days? And every single one of them is like, I've got a couple of mates, but that's about it. There isn't this great group. I think the only one I'd say is that Rio Ferdinand still has the group of Manchester United players from that incredible period under Sir Alex Ferguson still in a WhatsApp group. But I think that's about the only example I can think of.

37:20And even when I leave BT Sport last season, you literally don't hear from them. And part of you gets offended and then you speak to them and they go, that's football. It's a strange mentality, isn't it? Because you also do incredible things together. I think of delivering this European trophy for West Ham. You know, that is a memory that you and those teammates of yours will have forever. And I know for a fact that in 20, 30 years time, you'll all be going back to the stadium for dinners and celebrations for winning that European trophy. Can we talk about how incredible that felt? Do you know what's crazy about that is I was probably in one of my worst times of my life then.

37:57One of the worst times, obviously I was going for my divorce and stuff. And I honestly couldn't get my head around it. it wasn't until i probably december this year when i was in a better place where i was like oh my god i've won a youth league championship literally after we won the whole team went out the gaffer went out got steaming a couple of boys didn't sleep for two days just got drunk for two days i was asleep on the coach and went back to the hotel it was the night that you won the trophy The night we won the trophy. So we were on the coach on the way back. I was asleep from the coach.

38:33I was just mentally drained because of everything that was going on outside of my football. And then I went back to the hotel and went to sleep while everyone was out partying. Seems such a shame. Honestly, it was crazy because I'm a party animal. Like, if you know me, I love a night out. I love a drink. Party animal. and I thought after the game that that would have been me but by the time we literally parted in the changing rooms and we left and got on the coach I was just so drained I fell asleep so what was the overriding emotion then the overriding emotion it was just literally the game was over my adrenaline shut down and then I was like I'm back in the shit basically I'm back in actually life and it just hit me on the coach and I was just like I'm going home I'm going to bed it's amazing I think the thing that I think about when you talk about the truth behind being a footballer which is what this is really about is is the criticism that gets thrown the way of footballers you know if they're not performing they get incredible criticism yet no one knows what's going on behind the scenes the things that you're telling us now the divorce the mental health challenges the therapy want praying to be injured wanting time away from the game what is that seemingly constant stream of criticism like as a footballer um to be fair it kind of just as time goes by you kind of see it's just part of the parcel like literally there's going to be comments no matter how you play if you play well you play bad there's going to be a negative comment out there.

40:16So you kind of get used to it. There was one guy on my Twitter when I signed for West Ham, no matter how I played, even when I scored four goals, he said to me, he always said, after every game, you're a donkey. And he just constantly said it to me. And to be fair, it never got to me. I always found it, I was like, what a guy. Like, the commitment you have to send a message every week, I was just like, it's like, you might have probably had a problem. But like, It's just the game. Everyone has an opinion. One thing with football is crazy compared to every other sport is everyone wants to have their say, no matter what.

40:55And the most negative things are the ones that ring everywhere. Everyone wants to be negative in football. Whereas, I won't even say football, I say probably England. Whereas when you go into Spain, when you go to Germany, when you go to Italy, they try and spin things more positively. whereas in England they want anything where it could be spinning a bad way that's the stuff that's going to go out that's the stuff that's going to get the press that's the stuff that's going to make you get more jobs the negativity sells here whereas anywhere else it's the positive stuff that gets put out So what do you think we could do then and I ask that from the position as a host of this show but also as someone that used to stand there hosting football shows asking the kinds of questions that at times would be about dropping players sacking managers questioning refereeing decisions you know I'm well aware that I played that game.

41:44What could we do to bring a more positive agenda to the UK and to football? Honestly, I couldn't even give you the answer. Do you think conversations like this are helpful? I do. Like, obviously, people are now starting to understand that we are humans, not robots. People are realising that as time's going by with the mental health issues and people speaking out more, that they are struggling. um but i think football is something that people escape to so there's something that the fans escape to like you see it where you see fans in the stands which i find quite crazy is like they're normal people when they go to the jobs and you know on monday to friday and then when they go into the stands they completely change and they forget who they are like let's talk about a couple of the people who've been caught throwing racist abuse at people and then they get caught and then you find that they are like high businessmen in their jobs and their friends are like i never never saw that of him i never experienced that of him and some of them even has people who are black like around them and they've never experienced their call and everything like that but they kind of forget who you are and you just are in the moment and you've just start blurting things out.

43:05Obviously, I'm not condoning it. I'm not saying that it's something that they feel because they forget who they are. It's just people go there for an escape and then they just they do it. And it's, I feel like it's part or parcel of the game. I don't think it will ever change. Really? Well, the first principle of race of any discrimination is to dehumanize somebody so that I don't see you as human. Yeah. So if I don't see you as human, I can say what I want to almost and that's what you're describing. I'm interested though in how do you discern whose opinion matters to you versus the noise of the rest that is irrelevant?

43:43Who gets in your inner circle and what is it they have to prove to you that their opinion is worth listening to? I don't listen to my family who comes to football. My family, I have no understanding of football in any way, shape or form. I've been playing football for 16 years my brother is my best friend yeah and he would still call me on a Friday night going let's go out tonight and I have a game on the Saturday only because he knows that some people would go out so he actually has no clue about football isn't that nice in some ways though I love it my family obviously I'm the youngest so I'll go to my mum's house and my sisters and brothers will be like oh go make us a cup of tea like and I'll be like no and they'll be like they'll be like you're the baby go make the tea literally they never treat me like a footballer like when i was playing they never came watch me play my brother's probably been to 10 games in my entire career like my family are not interested in football in any way shape or form so when i go home it's just unbelievable they never treat me like michael and tonio they just treat me as their little brother and how important were your family when when your career was forged i believe that your mum prevented you from going on a trial, right?

45:02Yeah, so I was going on a trial to Spurs when I was 14. But obviously, I live in South London, Spurs in North London. When she found out that I'd be getting home between 11, 12 o 'clock at night and I'll have school the next day every night, she was like, nah, not a chance. Like, education is more important than football because you can't guarantee you're going to make it. But she was also the person that was always buying my boots. Buying my boots, making sure I had the opportunity to go play football. um i thought my life was over because my first opportunity to actually get an opportunity to get into an academy i was like football was done i'm finished but i feel like it's probably the best thing that she probably did for me because it gave me resilience it gave me the opportunity to be a child as well because all these boys that are in academies don't actually they've been living this footballer's life from the age of 11 12 and i'm not gonna lie it is exhausting exhausting like my son now he's at city selects and literally he's training two times a week and then he's training with his school team and then he's training um or the roots team he's training like four or five times a week and there's times where he's like he was like i'm gonna go for a sleepover and then and my my ex be like but you've got football in the morning so you might have to stay in this one and he's missing out on opportunities where when i was younger i was out with my mates i was doing all the things that i could do and it wasn't until i turned 18 which is technically a grown man now, where I got signed and then I had to buckle down.

46:48And I got to enjoy my childhood and now I've got to enjoy my adulthood as a probbler. So when you look at these kids that have been in academies, what do you feel that they have that you don't? But equally, what do you have that they don't? I have a hard shell. That's one thing that I've learned that I've done because I constantly got the no's and when I got my no's it made me go harder and I constantly just wanted to constantly push myself push myself when someone said no to me go I'll prove you wrong when someone next person said no to me okay okay I'll prove you wrong and that's what I'm keep doing now because every time a manager's come in gone you're not my cup of tea I was like well you're gonna play me in my head I'm like you're going to play me and every manager that's come in has eventually played me and I think that's one of my biggest achievements that I've had in my career is the fact that every single person that has come in and they've put me to a side at the beginning by the end of the season I'm either if I'm not number one on the list I'm number four and I'll be playing week in week out.

47:51And you feel that was forged from coming up through park football and playing in non-league? 100 % because I'm so used to being pushed aside I'm so used to people telling me no and I had to prove to them how good they am I have to prove to them that I can get the job done and that's given me that resilience that I need in my career tell us the emotion of the day you played in the Premier League for the first time and how that felt to be honest it was I'm very laid-back person so I wasn't nervous or anything I was quite chilled and especially with the last 10 minutes at the Etihad I knew I wasn't going to get much of the ball so I kind of went on left wing but basically he played left back and then after that I didn't touch the field for three months so I don't know what I did in the last 10 minutes but

48:39but Simon Biersch wasn't feeling it and then all the right backs got injured and then I ended up playing right back and that's when I was nervous because my whole entire life I was an attacking player I ever played left right or up front I've never been a defensive player in my life so coming on at right back to start a game right back in the Premier League when I've never played in the Premier League really I was just like nervous so when did you find out you were going to be playing at right back in the week because he got he started training me to play there because all the right backs got injured and there was no else could play so take us to you go home you sort of sat on your own what are you saying to yourself that gives you that confidence that you can go and do it on Saturday I always I always believe in myself I always say look it's an opportunity to play in the Premier League you're getting an opportunity to start in the Premier League just go out and show what you can do it's as long as you have the shirt you can it's an opportunity to show your abilities on the pitch how do you feel when you don't feel you've had a fair opportunity though to show yourself I'm thinking of England as a really good example here I feel like if they gave me the opportunity I would have impressed but then for me it's just down to like it's opinions again like I feel like someone should always get the opportunity and if they don't get the opportunity if they don't do it the first try then it's okay to go you know what get moved to a side but to not actually get the opportunity at all it's very frustrating for me and when you had that call up to England into the squad but didn't play like do you go I don't know it was under Sam Allardyce wasn't it yeah did you go and speak to him and go give me a chance give me a shot no to be fair because he got sacked straight after that um or he resigned straight afterwards but to be fair he came to me he came to me straight after the game and he was like i wanted to put you on he's like i wanted to put you on but because it was my first game i needed to go with experience and that's what he actually said to me and i respected him fully for that because i knew he really liked me as a player and I felt like I was so close and I got called up two more times under Gareth Southgate but obviously both times I never got on the field again and then I got called up one more time after that but I did my hamstring and that's why I said that I was never meant to play for England because at that time when I got called up he played every player he played every single player in his squad that time and I just feel like I was always meant to play for Jamaica because when I was 22 Jamaica is who I called up to say I want to play and they turned me down and the manager turned me down when I was at Sheffield Wednesday which I found crazy because I was playing in the championship and the other players that he was calling up was playing League Two in my position.

51:48Look what you said earlier though when at your darkest moments the one thing you loved was playing for Jamaica so it was always meant to be perhaps can we talk about the three managers you played under please at West Ham I'd love to know Slavin Bilic David Moyes Manuel Pellegrini the one thing you learn most from each of those three men Pellegrini the only thing I love from him is no matter what you do as a footballer it's not your power's not in your hands you are when you're a footballer you are technically controlled your life is controlled normally as a footballer if you perform well you know you're playing the week after no matter what you do if you're performing you get to play but then I always had that slight delusion that I controlled my life but under Pellegrini he made you realize that you never like as a footballer you're told where to be what time to be there and when to be there.

52:55You can't just get up and go on holiday. Christmas Day, you don't know whether you're in or you're not in. Every holiday, there are no holidays. At the football, there are no holidays. You are working through every single holiday. There's no bank holidays. There's no nothing. Only time off you get is in the summer or if there's an international break. But if you're an international break and you're an international player, you're going to play. So was Pellegrini somebody that didn't communicate or invite you to have a conversation? He would just be more dictatorial, is that? No. Like, you can have a conversation with him.

53:28He'll open his door up and you can talk to him. Yeah. But end of the day, his decision is his decision. And under Slavin Bilic, one thing I learned from him is with my coaching, I feel like you can be too nice. So if I was ever going to be a coach, I feel like he was a bit too nice. I feel like he lets certain players get away with certain things like what just not being not giving their all in training when it was necessary or turning up late to the training ground I feel loads of the things that people need to be really on and when those things start to fall apart then I feel like the team starts to fall apart because the professional starts to drop as soon as you stop being professional you can't just turn professionalism on and off it will affect the culture.

54:20And David Moyes, I would say, I think, how he managed to try and band the team together where, like, take the boys away for team bonding and stuff like that, I feel that's something that I would definitely take on. We'll wrap up soon, but I do want to talk about the legacy that David Moyes leaves behind. You know, he's a manager that's received a lot of criticism. He's also a manager that's delivered West Ham's greatest moment in the last few years he's a manager that's been there twice what do you think is David Moyes' legacy? I feel like he's a legend he's broken all the records that any manager has at West Ham I feel like obviously the way he started football how he plays might not be the prettiest but he gets the job done people will say he's the manager he's the manager version of me as a player Do you agree with that?

55:23Yeah, why not? It's not the prettiest way of playing football but it gets the job done I'm not the prettiest way of playing the game but I get the job done so I feel like he's definitely going to be a West Ham legend I feel like the achievement that he's done a thousand games over a thousand games in the Premier League and winning the trophy I think he's got the highest tall record tally at the end of season for West Ham he's just he's done so much for the club so I feel like he's definitely going to be a legend what would you say to him personally I would say I just thank you for the achievements and thank you for everything you've done over the last three slash four years that I played under him and I wish him well for this for his future and how did you find out that his tenure was coming to an end I found out I say what everyone else did because we had the day off on Monday so I I reckon he would have probably wanted to speak to us himself, but we found out by looking at Sky Sports and saying that the club and him is pied-waite.

56:21You must have felt it though? Yeah, definitely. It was a weird one because normally if a manager's leaving, you kind of get the opportunity for the manager to speak to you, but we didn't actually get that chance because obviously we went in. But one thing in football, nothing's certain. So you just got to keep going, keep pushing yourself, and then whatever happens, happens. and obviously he has had a chance to speak to all since what did he say? to be honest he pulled us and he was like look as much as everyone knows that I'm leaving end of season he's like I want us to be putting performances I don't want to see another performance like we did against Chelsea we want to I want to finish this on the high and finish as high as possible in the league and he's like he's enjoyed every moment in training with us he's had some unbelievable moments, some best moments in his life and he said he's happy that he's done everything that he's done at this club and he's got no anger towards the club no anger towards the management he's just he's ready to move on now and can I ask about you then Mikel that you spoke earlier that football was often an escape from some of the turmoil that maybe was surrounding you in your life you are 34 you're closer to the end of your career than the beginning what have you put in place that will allow you to move on to the second part of your life in a healthy constructive way so i've always been a person to set myself goals i'm a person to plan ahead so as soon as i turn 30 i set myself a goal that when i retire i want to be able to to walk into something else i've been i've let it know that i want to be a presenter i want to get into presenting so i've already been speaking to broadcasters i've been speaking to been speaking to people trying to set up my own little podcast i've also started doing my ufb coaching right because i don't want to be left in limbo like i said i need to keep myself busy and like i feel that's something that i've always i've always tried to do so i do my podcast with football football podcast and these things i've really started to enjoy it so hopefully when i walk out And when I'm done in a few years, then I will straight into something that I want to do.

58:35How many years? I think I've got three more years and then I'll call it a day. I think my legs will still be going, but I feel like that'll be me going, you know what, I've done enough now. It's time for the next step. And as a man who's scored more Premier League goals than anybody else for West Ham United, as we sit here talking now, what are the odds you'll score more for them next season, do you think? I don't know. I honestly couldn't tell you one thing with football anything can happen are you ready for a new challenge? I'm not ready for a new challenge I'm happy to be fair like I'm happy at West Ham it's just it's all down to whether the club want to try something new or the club get a good enough offer they want to let me go love it right time for some quickfire questions to wrap up the three non-negotiable most important behaviours that you have to buy into oh got some good questions yeah thanks you got some good questions all right punctuality important massively important or should always be on time and if you're on time you're late in my eyes you should be early hard work always ready to do the work i think anyone that's lazy frustrates me and happiness always always always try and be happy brilliant that's that is the most important thing in life i'll say better than money family everything as you're as long as you're happy you make the people around you happy what's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness my biggest strength is being resilient my greatest weakness is being too soft oh i'm not sure that's a weakness is because i fall for so much rubbish i get so many so many sob stories and i'm like all right go on then you're kind yeah but it kills you in the long run that reminds me I remember Alex Ferguson talking about he said Ryan Giggs his greatest quality was he had a highly attuned bullshit detector in his head literally the amount of money I've lost where people have just called me up going oh I need this bro bro and I'm like no no no no go on then so never again I still do it to this day what advice would you give to a teenage Mikhail just starting out I would say don't change your course just do everything you did what you did because I'm not gonna lie I wouldn't change my life now Brilliant and the final question the one thing you want to leave ringing in people's ears your one golden rule for a high performance life Happiness is key and I say happiness is key and try and do whatever you're doing on auto Brilliant Listen, what a great conversation.

1:01:44Thank you ever so much.

1:01:50Damien. Jake. I've watched, loved, listened to football all my life. I've worked in football as a broadcaster for the best part of 15 years. I don't think I've ever heard a footballer open up in the way that McHale just opened up. No, I think that's somebody speaking with the freedom that therapy has given him, is giving him the courage as well just to speak so openly. It was a real privilege to listen. And I think in some ways we can say, you know, life as a professional footballer in the Premier League is unique. But I think the things that he spoke about when it came to his mental health will resonate with so many people, particularly with so many men listening to this, that you have to bottle things up, that you push it down inside, that it's your job to deal with all of these things.

1:02:34And that really emotional moment where he said, you know, the therapist said, what's brought you here? and he just burst into tears and he felt, what did he say, like his heart had opened up. He said it was like stone beforehand. And I know there'll be people listening to this who are in the same place that Mikhail was before he went to therapy. Yeah, and there'll be lots of people living with their head on a swivel, as he said, that constant idea of looking for the threats, looking for somebody that's keen to take you down, somebody that's too quick with an opinion. And that hypervigilant state creates burnout that doesn't allow you to find the joy in life.

1:03:11And it sounds like that moment of the game where we realised, I'm just not enjoying this anymore, is often like a key indicator that somebody, that lack of joy that you have in life, that sense of apathy, that pointlessness of it, is often an indicator of somebody that is experiencing depression or a mental health challenge. And I'm just so glad that he had the courage to go and seek help. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. And I would just say, let's continue having these kinds of conversations. I think that there was no conversation like this with a professional footballer five years ago.

1:03:43There's very few conversations like this with a professional footballer today. But I really hope that this encourages other people who are in the game to go and seek help and to speak out. But more than that, I just hope that it reminds us that empathy is so important because when you see a footballer on a football pitch or a colleague in the workplace, it doesn't matter where it is, there's so much more going on than we think there is. And we shouldn't judge. 100 % that example Mikhail spoke about about when people will shout racist abuse for example and the fact is you're not seeing a human being there you're seeing somebody that you've made in your head different than you so they're just an object where you can pour your anger and your bitterness and I think if we can all just take a moment and go these are people first footballers second that makes the world a better place thanks a lot mate thank you mate and that's it for today's show I just want to say a big thanks to Mikhail for coming on and sharing what he has with us here on High Performance.

1:04:40We pride ourselves on this being a safe space, a place where people can come, share their truth and trust us to tell it in the right way. And we wish Mikhail all the very best with whatever comes next in what has been an impressive and brilliant career so far. What a cool guy he is. Don't forget, if you want even more from High Performance, you can download our app. You can watch the content on YouTube as well. And please continue to spread and share the learnings you're taking from these conversations. Stay humble, curious and empathetic. And I'll see you next time.

1:05:55Thank you. You go more closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.