Mo Gilligan on the Reality of Fame and the Power of Therapy (E313)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp The broadcaster opens up A powerful conversation On success and mental health Stand up makes you very very vulnerable You're so exposed I have about 30 seconds to a minute To get my first big laugh So humbling man 15 people and no one's laughing It is brutal I came on stage and I was like I might just quit this thing When it's going really well Give yourself 10 seconds to enjoy that moment because that's what you do it for you will benefit off that for so long that was the distinctive voice of comedian and triple bafta award winner mo gilligan who joins us today on high performance i'm jay comfrey and alongside damien hughes who you'll hear from in about three seconds we explore the minds and experiences of some of the most incredible people in the world mo is currently in the middle of a world tour and he built himself up by posting his material online as well as performing in small clubs.

1:03He went on to co-host The Big Nasty Show on Channel 4, the latest show with Mo Gilligan, and he has hosted two Netflix stand-up specials as well as being a panellist on The Masked Singer and regularly appearing on Celebrity Gogglebox. So you know Mo Gilligan, right? But I don't really think you know Mo Gilligan. In this conversation, you're going to hear how he's built his career through incredible attention to detail, unstoppable hard work and his unique powers of observation. But you can also expect to hear Mo speak in a way that I believe he rarely does. In fact, he spoke about things I've never heard him talk about before, including discussing the years he spent in therapy and how he seeks to get the balance right between the jokes he tells on stage and the joy that he seeks within.

1:48Honestly, we both loved this one, didn't we? Yeah, absolutely. And we really hope you do as well, as we welcome the incredible Mo Gilligan to High Performance.

2:00Mo, welcome to High Performance. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. So thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Look, out of all of the comedians that started on social media, you're the ones with the Netflix special. You're the one who Jimmy Fallon loves. You're the one who has millions of people watching him on the television. You're the one that's touring not just in the UK, but around the world as well. How do you think it's happened? it's interesting there's a few things I'd say when it all started and everything was going at 100 miles an hour it kicked off because of what we said no to as opposed to what we said yes to because whenever you get that kind of like oh like you're the person we want to do this thing for and a branded campaign and what about you for this show and it's really important what I said well I always look back and I was like that's not for me to one it was like I don't feel comfortable doing that.

2:51I don't see myself as that person just yet. And I'm enjoying doing this thing here, which was like doing some of the stand up and the touring, rather than other things. It just didn't feel like it just felt like crowbarred in. Do you know what I mean? A lot of my sketches were revolving around like the geezer at the time. And, you know, doing like Julie, get a couple of cans. And like, I just had so much fun just doing that. And it was very carefree. But like the minute someone's like, oh, why don't you make a song about it? And, you know, record label wants to sign the song as a single deal. You're like, nah, I got friends who are proper musicians that want to get signed and do real music.

3:31I'm messing around in my mum's balcony. So I always look back at what we said no to as opposed to what we said yes to. Because the things we said yes to were the things that I was like, even if I'd just done that thing, that would be great. You know, having a TV show, I'd be like, wow, that would be it for me. if I got to do a tour, if I got to even do a show and sell it out, that would be amazing. And I could, I always say like, I could die a happy man. Do you know what I mean? Without getting too dark, but they were the thing. So it was almost like checking off your goals and your list of like, yep, we wanted to do that.

4:05I wanted to do that. Did we want to do a record deal? It's just not for me. Do you know what I mean? There's some people out there and that's their thing. But I think for me, it just wasn't the thing that I was going to wake up in the morning and be like, oh, this is what I want to do, you know? and then everything else just starts aligning some ways as well so yeah I think it was just a a nice period of like you know like when a football team goes on a run and you're like they've had the big win the 4-0 win they've had the away win and they've just scored by a corner but the defence was really good you know they've had the win where they won by as a penalty but it didn't play play very well I think that's what a lot of my wins was feeling like at the time but it was just the run was was consistent you know I love that what sort of money at that moment at the very beginning was in your bank account like oh man there was no you know what was mad when I done the videos I was the brokest I've ever been because I've always been a good hustler in a sense of I've always liked trainers for example so like you know when I made a little bit of money in retail that's what I would buy I'm like calling to get a pair of Jordans I knew what was coming out what day I'd camp out for them get the rare ones sell them on eBay but like Once I started doing the videos, I guess it's like perception meets reality because the perception is like, oh, everyone's sharing your stuff and you're going viral and you've got 50 ,000 followers.

5:27And you're like, yeah, but I've got this tour on sale. And at the time, I used to do these small shows called Cracking Up Comedy. And it was like a show that I could put on sale and I would do everything. I was a control freak that I would put the, you know, I'd go on Eventbrite and add the details in and everything. I've got a friend of mine called Emmanuel. He used to help me out. Another friend of mine, she'll help me do the door and then I get some comics. And that was just a way that I was able to leave retail. And I was like, this is my little job. Whatever comes in is all right and stuff.

5:58And still in a bit of debt. I had like a little bit of credit card debt at the time. So I was always just like having my head above water in some ways. And then I was just broke, man. The brokest I've ever been. Minimal income around those times, man. Just getting enough to get by. but online it was popping. And I remember getting my first big check and that was, that was like five figures. I can't remember how much it is because my mum might watch it. She's like, what? Five figures? In some ways it was, it felt amazing because I was like, wow, I can go to the shops and buy anything. And I did.

6:32I went straight to Stone Island. I bought a coat, bought a tracksuit. I went back the next day, bought something else. But at the same time, I didn't have any money management. Do you know what I mean? I didn't have someone to tell me to invest in this or that.

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8:31The reason why I wanted to mention money there is that when you're saying no to adverts, when you're saying no to record deals, when you're saying no to those things, you're already demonstrating like long term thinking right you're thinking jam tomorrow not jam today yes yeah yeah which is easy to do with a million pounds in the bank oh yeah 100 % it's not so easy to do if you're the brokish that you've ever been yeah yeah yeah so it's just where what would be absolutely a high performance mindset like where did that come from where was the trust in yourself that you can say no to this there'll still be more opportunities do you know what I've always looked at whenever like the facts and figures get sent to you it's like I don't know I think because I was lucky enough to be a little bit more mature at that time so even though it didn't come from mine I had a lot of it at that time I also knew it's like I've got bills to pay I've got a clear credit card I've got to put money away for do you know what I mean for business things that you just don't that I just knew this in the back of my mind in some way so saying no to some of those things it's like well it's not in my account yet so it doesn't really matter and also it's like I have to do the job first it doesn't matter how much the thing is until you do the job do you know what I mean so it's all good being like oh, we're going to give you a million pounds, but you've got to wear the chicken suit in Westfield and do the cluck cluck dance.

9:43And you're like, eh. I just think like, I know at that time, I don't wake up in the morning excited. I wake up and I'm like, I don't want to do this. Like, I feel embarrassed. And every part of my soul is like, this isn't, I feel uncomfortable. So then the money doesn't even, it doesn't matter how much the figure is. It's like, I'm all right, you know. Do you know what I mean? You know. So how do you make a decision then? I think for me it's almost like the things that feed my creativity So, you know, the more you do TV You get more offers for stuff And I'm like, wow, that's a creative opportunity But that's also something where I want to be able to do things That are going to challenge me as well So there's the things that you see where you're like Well, that's a check I'm not really inspired to do the check thing but that is pushing me in something that I've never done before.

10:37Like vulnerability within the last two years has always been my decision in making my goals. I'm like, that's going to make me feel more vulnerable. The more vulnerable I am, the more I can get out of myself to essentially perform at a different level as if I would have stayed comfortable. So I think for me, it's really important to find the things that, you know, like there's this opportunity for this thing. It might not be big. it's a few lines in a film but you're going to shoot it in this place and these are the cars you're working with and I think wow, that feels cool alright, I'm not the main person but hey, let me lend my hand to this thing and I do feel uncomfortable but I really enjoy that uncomfortability now more than I think I've ever had in my career so I think that's always how I tend to make my decisions if I feel uncomfortable where I'm like I know I'm going to be on set and not want to do that thing.

11:35I just know I'm like, that's just not me. Give that to someone that's going to want that, enjoy that, and it's going to feed their creativity where I'm like, no, that's just turning up and taking the check. Do you know what I mean? But vulnerability is something that most people would shy away from. And yet you're describing leaning into it. Yeah, yeah, of course. I think that's because of stand-up though. Stand-up makes you very, very vulnerable. You're so exposed. you go on stage you judge the minute you get on but I just what you're wearing how you say hi to people and you pick up the mic and I'm like I have about 30 seconds to a minute to get my first big laugh once I get that laugh I've got them and halfway through that performance every comic knows that I've got them in my palm with my hand it's the nicest place to be as a comic but also you can lose them so you could say something you're like oh I've got to get them back so I feel like that vulnerability for me has always come from stand-up, you know, going on stage.

12:34And I was really conscious of being a stand-up. And my goal as a kid was always like, so I say a kid as a 19-year-old, I was like, I want to make everyone laugh. The goal is everyone must laugh at the show. And if I'd see like everyone laughing and one person at the front, I'm like, oh man, I've got to get this guy to at least smile. It's changed a little bit now because when you perform in front of thousands, you're just like, hey man, if you've got to go to the toilet, it's all right. Do you know what I mean? But that always stuck with me. And I think the vulnerability of just going on stage and no one knows who you are.

13:07And in this five, 10 minutes or 20 minutes, I've got to tell you a bit about myself. I've got to have a bit of charisma. I've got to be confident. Because if you see that, I don't know what I'm talking about. You're like, and then on top of that, I've got to tap into what makes you laugh. So in all of that, I'm like, let me find the thing that's going to get the ha-ha. That's all I need is a ha-ha. It might be high, it might be low, but as long as I get that, that's all I need to get out of you. So I truly believe that's where my vulnerability has always come from, you know. So, yeah. Can we explore your craft?

13:43Because all those things you've just started to break down, the nuances, the subtleties, I've got a minute to get a laugh, I've got to get you back. That's not a natural set of knowledge that you have. You've had to learn that. would you tell us a little bit around some of the best lessons that you think stand-up comedy can provide our audience with i think what i've always loved about comedy is there's always a saying sometimes with comedy when you say you're only as good as your last show i don't believe that because i used to have that mentality and then i'd do a show that was really bad and any comic will tell you once you have a bad show the best thing the quickest thing you can do is to have another show so soon that it's going to be a good show.

14:26So you might go to a small comedy club and then you're like, okay, I'm back again. So do another show as quick as you can. If you've had a bad one, as quick as you can. Like the football analogy, you have a bad loss. They want to play again quick. Yeah, let's get back on the stage. Can you take us to one of those times? I'll tell you, oh yeah, I've done a show once in Nottingham for this competition in Edinburgh Festival. And my manager, she said to me, ah you know like if you win this competition you can go to Edinburgh and um you'll be on basically every night so it's like a about four comics every night so I'm excited you know I've got my laptop and within my comedy I'm always inspired by music so I've got I used to have my I used to take my laptop with me I have an iPad I have a CD and a USB because I say look I've got a bit of music in this bit and you know the sound guy is like look my thing is to make sure the mic works and then there's me turning up and I'm like, so can you connect the iPad?

15:23And they're like, yeah, I ain't got that cable. I'd be like, I've got the cable. And they'd be like, yeah, we've only got a laptop. Okay, got USB. Sorry, Mike, we've only got a CD. I always made sure I was so ready. But like most of the sound guys, this is just like a small open mic. They're like, who's this guy, man? Why have you got all this stuff prepped? Anyway, I get down there and there's probably about, I want to say 15 people in the audience and it's small, it's probably that size of this room but 15 people in the size of this room would feel quite packed and the promoter said, oh we've got to put you on first because the other comedians are running a bit late and I was like, alright cool, I'll go on stage, oof painful, they didn't laugh at nothing but then I was like, it's alright, I've got that music bit and I'm like, oh you know, when you go to the club and they play a song like this I'm looking and I'm like Bro that was your cue to play the song He didn't play it And I'm like And I've got to do the whole Break the fall fall thing I'm like Yeah Can you play the song On track one And the guy's like Oh yeah cool And he didn't play it And I was like Okay don't worry about it I carry on with the material No one's laughing Then he plays the music Like everything that could go wrong Was going wrong Get off stage Camus like come late First guy goes on He smashes It's a room of 15 people by the way Second guy goes Sorry, third guy goes on.

16:43Smashes. Everyone done really well. And then we had to be in a car. We all drove back to London. And I can hear these comics in the car being like, I don't know if my set was quite, you know, I didn't know if I really, and I'm sitting there like, bro, they didn't laugh at nothing, I said. It was such a horrible moment, but it's always the moment that sticks because that was the moment where I remember after I came off stage and I was like, I might just quit this thing, you know. And it's not because I didn't feel I was good at it. I think it was just my ego I think that's what it is And I think since then It's just like I've had shows that I don't feel Are as good as they could have been But then I think that's just my ego Because people will say to you Oh man that was a great show I loved it But it's just my personal Like that could have been better But that day So humbling man 15 people and no one's laughing It is brutal Like so brutal man It was hard for you right?

17:37Yes yeah yeah yeah Was it good for you? It was good because whenever like now I have a bad show that's my reference point in a room of people who didn't know who I was and I made none of them laugh but the beautiful thing is they probably get to watch me do stuff now like oh I've seen him at the show 15 people he was awful like I don't know why there's a bit of joy that comes out of that in some ways but it wasn't I knew it wouldn't be the end of me but I think when I got off stage I was like oh man that was that was uncomfortable that was horrible but I think it's always like I think of that show and I'm like that's the worst but funny at the same time do you know what I mean it's got a story behind it it's a good story for a podcast all these years later right yeah here we are but the level of self-awareness you have yeah and yet sounds like you have to have as a comedian yes is really interesting and yet when John Bishop sat in this chair with us it was fascinating for us that he spoke about having a coach he'd deliberately gone out to get us one to coach him on his stagecraft or reading Kevin Hart's book he speaks around the role of Keith Robinson as a mentor to tell him how do you get better, how do you improve how do you balance your own self-reflection with the external reflection does anyone coach you, anyone give you advice I wouldn't say I've ever been coached or anything I think when you're a young comic the older guys will often give you advice but it's sometimes how you want to take the advice because like I said, comics before have said, oh, you're only as good as your last show.

19:12But it's until you to realize, you're like, well, I don't really believe in that because my last show was great or my last show wasn't as good, but I'm going to have more shows. And I've had shows in the past that I probably learned more from than I did in my last one in some ways. But I didn't have anyone around me. I think that probably benefited me the most because I didn't have anyone giving me the ropes as such. Do you know what I mean? There isn't anyone I could say that was like, that said do this or do that. I've always been really observant. So I would watch comics and how they portray themselves and their craft.

19:49You know, if I go to a comedy show and you're at the side of the stage and you see the comic that's the headliner and how he is that kind of puppeteer of the audience with how he controls the laughter and the whole room. But also I've always been really observant on my audiences. so if I go to a show and I am on second I want to see like, okay cool they're laughing at that stuff they like that stuff they don't like that stuff the room sometimes, the temperature if I get there and I'm like it's too cold and I see a guy with his jacket I'm like he ain't gonna laugh because he's just thinking of how cold it is or if it's summertime and it's hot and you're like, I know it's hot in here there's no air con they're all the things that I use to my ability and I've just been able to soak in so much, I guess, throughout the years of what is my audience experience when they go to a comedy show?

20:42But also, I think as a comic, when you're around comics, it's this, like, you get some comics that are really nervous. So sometimes I'm very self-aware to be like, I can't really be around your energy because I know you're nervous and now you want to start practicing your jokes on me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, man, so I was saying this and you're like, yeah, you're nervous before you go on. so I think self-awareness is so so so important but I do like asking for tips but I also don't at the same time because I just like discovering things uh by myself but I'm always open to you know I get comics now that's still like oh I've got this bit for that joke and not feeling too big because it's a comic that you know that's not on television or hasn't done a Netflix special can you share the most profound idea that someone's offered you that that you still incorporate in your act today?

21:32I think the movement, and that wasn't a comedian, that was an old drama teacher of mine called Miss Simpson, and she always used to say, you've got great physicality. You know, I know you love doing the funny characters in drama, but physicality for your comedy, I didn't know what that was when I started doing stand-up. It's until I started watching myself back, the facial expressions and the way I use my body, I was like, oh, oh, I get it. I see what you're saying. So that's always stuck for me when it comes to stand-up. You know, Miss Simpson, she's, I wrote, I put a piece in my book about her because she was the lady who said, you're really talented.

22:12You should do performing arts. And that just kind of got me to where I am today in some ways. But her telling me about the physicality as I've got older, and when I do write stand-up, and I've got that bit, but if I act out the customer experience of what it's like in retail, when I worked in Jo Malone, but I switched to myself, I know I can do that, if that makes sense. So that's always come from, like, yeah, that came from, like, an old school teacher, you know, being a physical comedian. And, you know, there's some people who are a whole high physical comedian, like a Robin Williams or a Jim Carrey, for example.

22:47Again, comedians, I love watching their stuff. But, yeah, just knowing how I can use my body, how I can stage presence. That's another thing she taught me, like, use the stage. as comics is very easy to you know it looks very cool and you hold the mic and you're sitting on the chair and I've tried that but I'm like it's not me if the stage is this big then I have to but if I get an arena I'm going to use every part of the stage and map out where I see this story within the stage so if I say oh you know we went so we had to walk and we're walking and I will walk and I will go to the end of that stage to give my audience the experience of what it feels like when I'm telling the story.

23:28And that's come from, hasn't come from a comic, it's come from an old drama teacher. So just taking those little tips and just adding it and it heightens it up so much, you know. I really love this conversation about attention to detail. Oh, thanks. So we speak often to high performers and whether they talk about the 1%, whether they talk about world-class basics or we had Maro Itoji only plays for Saracens and they have stitched into their shirts the shit that nobody sees. and that's what makes a difference for them and I think that's what makes a difference for you. I'm hearing like, watching yourself back, there'll be many, many comics that would have never have sat and just watched and improved themselves.

24:05The fact that you were the one working the Eventbrite website, the fact that you were the one there with the CD if it was needed or a cable if it was needed, the fact that you were standing in the corner of the room in the dark watching the audience, is it warm, is it cold, are they laughing, are they not, what do they like, what do they not like? I think there's a brilliant lesson here for people watching this and maybe they're at the very start of their career, comedy or not comedy, that this attention to detail is not something that should be laughed at, frowned upon, shouldn't be embarrassed about it.

24:31Because that is the difference between you sitting in this chair and you not being anyone that anyone knows, right? Yeah, yeah. That's the truth. It's the truth. I think, you know, we see it with athletes a lot. And you see their training and they do the, you know, footballers will do free kicks after training and try and hit the same corner 10 times. And, you know, whether you're an actor or an artist, a musician, a comedian, you can still put that into your work in some ways. Now I'm at a bigger level where I do arenas. But when we do a soundcheck, I want to sit right at the back at the top to understand, can I see Mo?

25:11Or, you know, it will be my tour manager who'll be there doing a soundcheck. I'll go right to the back of the room and I'll say, play the music really loud. Or like, I know I can't see you, but I know if you paid£25 for that ticket, I want it to feel like even though you're at the back you're going to get the same experience for someone right at the front you know making sure as soon as we get in a room we do a sound check you know if I've been to some venues before it's normally okay but if it's a brand new venue I want to go right to the back where it's like it's a bit blocked but play the music nah it needs more bass take out the treble or the lighting like do a blue wash because and then is it a spot those things are so important because if I just said well I'll just go out there do the thing and it's what it is you can get complacent in a way where you're like it's what it is and when it goes left or it doesn't live up to your standards it's very easy to then blame the audience as a performer well they just they're just not not on it are they tonight do you know what I mean but I feel like I have to give every part of myself that I can I know the material I've done this for years but I've not done this room before they might not have seen me they might be someone who's seen me 10 times and on this 11th time I might not live up to the hype or the person that's seen me for the first time and they say wow this is the best thing I've ever seen I was going to make sure that it's an equal experience for the person coming for the first time or the person has come 20 times in a row so it's those lighting changes are so important the way my voice sounds um it's only probably the last two years that now I'm really protecting my voice do you know I mean I'm I'm I'm making sure I'm protecting my voice.

26:53I'm relaxed before the show because I want to make sure when I am on stage and I'm telling material, I'm physical and filming myself, watching it back, not even to post online, but just like, that was good, but I could have done that better. You still watch your stuff back? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If I can't watch it back without the camera, I always record. I've always got to record in. So if I'm on a flight and I'm like, cool, I don't want to watch a film, I listen back to myself and I'm like, oh, that's a bit there. Let's wrap up on that bit. It's just those little small things that can help you fine-tune the joke to getting like a ha-ha-ha to a ha-ha-ha.

27:34And it's the smallest things. The timing is so perfect. Enjoying the timing as well, I think, for a joke. You know, I have some material in the new tour and there's one part where I pause and I'm like, I say the line and it gets a raw laughter. but that's only come because I've been able to watch myself back and be like I was just throwing that line away sorry but I think like yeah fine tuning stuff and attention to detail will take you from good to great I believe personally Are you a control freak? I am in a sense of my creativity I have to be yeah I have to be in control of it in a sense of I've got to go out there and do the work so I work with a good friend of mine called David he helps me write we are like yin and yang I have ideas he'll be like that's good but say it like this and I'm like nah but I've got to do it like this but he's very great at just cutting out the bits that don't make no sense sometimes and he's like I've watched it but do this bit that's good that's good like I would still write the stuff and perform it we have a clipboard and then you go after the shows the warm up shows he goes alright so I've got some notes that bit scrap that and because when I do you know like work in progress shows I'll be on stage for like two hours doing material I use it as a way to almost burn material that's how I like to kind of do warm up shows before tours I have like pages of stuff and I'm like cool we're just going to do it all in two hours and then we do it again in two hours and then we start cutting down, cutting down, cutting down until we get to an hour but I have to be a control freak for my creativity I don't think in any other aspects of life I am.

29:20Holidays, I'm very chill. I'm not like, come on, let's wake up. Got to go breakfast. I'm really laid back. But I think for my ideas and my creativity, stand up especially I am. I think once I started doing TV, I'm collaborating with other ideas and other people. And, you know, you've got execs and commissioners and their thing. You're like, okay, cool. But I also have to make sure I speak up for my ideas. the reason why I ask is because I see a lot of parallels with the way that my career was from being on kids TV I was I think the only kids TV presenter that would religiously watch back every show I did and then when I got the job on Formula 1 I employed a guy who would sit with me, David and Eddie who were the two pundits I worked with and every month we'd watch back the stuff and go through it all then when I ended up at BT I'd watch it back and I would want to know every tiny thing could be exploited so if there's a graphic that comes up with a game that's happening the next day most presenters go tomorrow Millwall against Everton I'm like where are Millwall in the league where are Everton in the league what's the news there like every tiny percent of a three or four hour football show or Formula 1 or kids I wanted it to be the whole thing at the absolute best it could be because I think it makes a genuine difference but the biggest thing it gave me and I'm interested if it gave you this as well it gave me a calmness that I could then relax on air like if I went on air 100 % prepared then there was freedom then there was exploration and when there's exploration you can find an edge I wonder if it's the same on stage I think on stage for me having that creativity of knowing how you know like I have music cues sometimes I have sometimes lighting cues and knowing where things are and how they are like when the lighting changes I might be at that side of the stage but when I'm about to tell this material I know I need to be here because I've got this cool lighting bit and I click the fingers and the lights will go off and I am a big showman in a way that as much as I want to do stand-up, I want to be a showman as well.

31:19I want to put on a show where you're like, wow, the warm-up guy was good and then the DJ played music in the break and Mo came out and it looked like, wow, the light's coming on. And I want to really put on a show. I think I'm able to do the subtle stuff in the clubs and that's where you're writing. You're in training. But on match day, I want to make sure when you go to this show, you're like, oh wow I got a full experience from that but yeah it feels so nice when it's especially when it's executed we had something new in the show my team hate me when we do tours because when we do soundcheck I'm like sorry guys new idea so what about this and we had this bit where I talk about going to a club and the DJ stopped the music and he's like oh I got my man Mo Gilligan in here tonight I said to the sound guy he's like can you add an echo on the mic the sound guy was like oh, we can try.

32:15And doors were about to open in 10 minutes. We added it. And it was so funny. Because when we'd done it in the show, the audience were really laughing. I started to laugh on stage. But now it's like, I know once we now do the shows, we start recording it, that bit is done now. We've set it. And that's because we was able to try the thing and do it. You know, I always say like, you know, there's no harm in trying the thing. And I think that's the same, going back to what you said with TV is if you see something that you're like we could do that better it's like well let's just try it like that you know instead of having a camera do this why don't we just have like a guy have a jib just to follow just try it it might not work you know you guys get to cut it up afterwards I'm a big believer in just you know trial and error you know if you want to call it that yeah can we talk about goal setting because none of this stuff seems like it's an accident whether it's from Miss Simpson and giving you the feedback about using your physicality.

33:14You make Dave making suggestions in the writing process to you worrying about the lighting and your stage presence and the echo. Do you set goals? I set goals within career goals. So things I want to do, things I want to achieve. Sometimes people in a field that I want to work with just so I can pick their brains sometimes. Goals are important. I think they're so, so, so important. But I don't really give myself a time frame for the goal. you know there's things that I've done in the last year that I wanted to do three years ago and I'm like oh wow that's only happened now um so I'm a big believer in writing down your goals your lists you know I have my my goals in my list for personal life stuff how I want to become a better person and things that I want to try and change in my life be better at waking up and going to the gym I'm going to set that goal to do it three times this week as soon as the alarm clock hits, we get up, set my alarm that I need to stop being late.

34:13So let me just get my clothes ready. It's a small things that just, I've written down now. So let's try and execute it. And then the career goals are always things that I just want to try and achieve in a way that doesn't make me feel like if I don't get it, or I haven't done it, it's the end of the world. It's like, it's okay. we can add it to next year or do you know what I want to do this now as a goal but yeah big believer in setting goals and as well as goals as tasks I think and what I say with the difference of a goal a goal is like that's the end goal sometimes the task is to okay I'm not great at this part of my stand up so the task is now to go to some smaller comedy clubs do some new material and the task is to try this, crowd work.

35:08It's not my goal to be a good comedian that does crowd work, but let's try that, Mo. And if it works, it works. If it's not, it's not. But the task is this week we go to the creek, we go to Top Secret and the task is we're just going to do a bit more crowd work stuff. Just try it. Don't make it forced, but that's just the task in hand. It's not the goal, but I think just doing tasks and setting tasks each week is important. We had a message from one of your friends. Oh, cool. Eddie Caddy yes good guy man that's my guy yeah yeah tell people about Eddie Eddie is one of the loveliest down to earth comics I swear to you like he sometimes I do shows and as a comic sometimes comics can be very like yeah yeah it was great and that's it like but Eddie will sit down and be like bro when you done that bit there we did I said nah you are on a dip you're and I'm like I find it really hard to take compliments sometimes as well so I'm like oh thank you he's like bro you've got something special man but he's the nicest and also one of the funniest comics I think as a comic you can watch other comics and you know you want to critique in a way like well I would have said that different or I would have changed that he's a nice comic just to watch and just I can laugh and sit down and it's one of my mates but yeah good guy Eddie Caddy well the message he sent us is about what you just explained which is going to clubs to do a specific thing not about putting on a great show necessarily but for you to learn and a little bit of your craft or something.

36:34This is what he told us about how relentless and busy and professional you are. Even when Mo was going to Australia and come back, going to the States, and he's got like a day's break, Mo would go to the comedy club just to brush up on his comedy set. Or to just burn some material because he just loves it. And sometimes I'm like, bro, was he just not in Australia yesterday fighting kangaroos? And then, for me... What I like about that is that Other people notice right when you work hard. You're like that fighting kangaroos. No, Eddie's a good guy. I think work-wise, if I don't, I'm not like, I know how to rest.

37:14Yeah. But it will annoy me if I haven't tried that bit. And I'm like, I've got to try it somehow. If I can get to a comedy company, just ask and pop down. And I don't want to be paid. I'll just do a 10 minutes. I don't want to take anyone else's time. Because I think that's important as well. You know, you've got these comics that haven't reached, you know, the heights that I have yet in their career, you know, they might be starting out and then to have me be like, well, yeah, so I'm going to go first and I'm going to smash it and then you got, that's just, yeah, like I've been that comic. Do you know what I mean?

37:44Where you're like, oh man, well, you're going up. So, yeah, like it's a hard act to follow sometimes. So I'm always conscious of like, you know, I just want to do 10. I don't want to take the piss, but I just want to try this little quick two minute bit if I could try that. And I think it's really important just to be around those comics as well. You know what I mean? Because they always want to pick your brains of like, oh, how's things? How's touring? And you need to have a presence in this world of comedy and feel like you're part of it and not like, well, we're here and you're over there. You know, because that's how it can sometimes feel as a comic as well.

38:21Who you hang around with is so important. I mean, you've got a long history with Ed Sheeran, right? You've done a lot of things together over the years. Oh, yeah, we've done the Brits. He done Sunday Show back in the day when he first started. Yeah, man. And he's always said, I want to be the biggest male artist in the world. And I love when someone makes a statement like that. Yeah. So I wonder what you've learned about who you hang around with and how hanging around with people who have either similar aspirations or even greater aspirations or who've already been there and done the things that you want to do.

38:49Yeah. How that serves you? I think my close circle of friends, I've known a lot of them for a long time. And I think the one thing my friends give me is a humbleness in a sense of no one's bigger than each other. Like when we take the piss out of each other, anyone can get it. Do you know what I mean? And that's so important for me because when you get to this world and you get someone that's going to go to the shop and get you a sandwich and you'd be like, I'll get something at the canteen, you know. It's raining outside. It's cool. because if I was around my friends, my friends would be like, bro, I ain't got no shot, bro.

39:30Like, this is good to the canteen. And that's what my friends have always given me. So I think having, you know, people around you that don't treat you special because of the job that you do is so important. And it's always been important for me of, you know, my tour manager is one of my best friends. You know, my stylist is one of my best friends. And once I got into this world, I wanted to bring my friends in and give them these opportunities and these jobs and say, look, man, you're good at styling. Why don't you just style me? And we're kind of both learning on the job in some ways. But they'll also be the same people that will say, bro, I'm not going to lie, that suit ain't rocking, you know?

40:10I'll be like, are you serious? He's like, yeah, bro, it's like the trousers all look crazy, man. And I need those people around me because they're not going to be like yes men. Because I believe once you get to a level, you know, in certain fields, people want to make sure you're happy. So you're going to get a lot of people just saying yes to make sure you're pleased, you're okay. You're not tired. Yes, well, we'll get that. Can we drive you from there? We can't, but we're going to do it for you. And I think having the people around you that aren't yes men are some of your biggest assets in how far you can go.

40:42And they've always said to me when it comes to my comedy, they'll say that. I'll be like, yeah, bro, that new stuff is really good. or, you know, some of my friends will say like, oh, like you should speak about this, you know. You have never touched it and it's funny. And that's not them being like, well, yeah, you're the funniest in the group. Yeah, you do whatever. You need friends to say like, yeah, man, push yourself, you should say that. And I think that's always been the key to some aspects of my success. I don't have much like close, close friends that are like also within the industry as such, if that makes sense.

41:17You know, I'd always say there's people that I know very well. But I'd be lying if I was just like, yeah, this is like my best friend and me hang out. You know, people that I can talk to, but my day one friends are the ones who keep me grounded. Along with my family as well, but they're, yeah, they come to the awards stuff, you know. And like when they're there, they will still be like me. They're like, bro, this is crazy. I can't even pretend that this is normal. This is absolutely insane. I'd be like, hey, bro, there's Andy Cole over there. And now, because I know Andy, I'm like, Andy what's up man these are my friends just wanted to say hello and like I've seen my friends shrink like hey bro it's Andy or like you know Rio Fandom done my pod and I was like oh bro is it possible one of the guys could get a picture and that's how you want to be able to you know like share those experiences with your friends because there was a time where like I was excited like that even though you get to have someone's number you can ask for a favour but my friends are like I ain't got his number but I know him through you, essentially.

42:20Do you still shrink when you're... Have you had a moment where you've been around your comedy heroes? Yeah, I went to this... I got invited to this Netflix brunch this year in LA. It was at the CEO's house and it was... You've made it. Yeah, that's it, man. Life is complete. We're still paying a Netflix subscription. He's at the CEO's house for a party. I don't get it for free, though. Yeah, I don't get it for free. I'm on a platform and it's not free. You still pay your 12 quid a month. Yeah, man. But I got invited to this brunch. And you get there and, you know, it's literally security everywhere.

42:57You drive, and it's weird. When you drive in, the gate's open and the garden, the party is there. Like this house is like somewhere in LA. You get in and you can just see it. So you're like, oh, you turned up, someone gets your door, valet. Me and my tour manager, Javan, we were just a bit like, whoa, look at the house. First of all, we're like, whoa, look at this house. This is crazy. And then, yeah, we're in the brunch, and I'm just, like, walking around, and I'm like, bro, there's Dave Chappelle over there. There's Kevin Hart over there. There's Mike Epps. And you're like, all these comedians, we're like, bro, I'm, like, really around some, like, some top comics right now.

43:34And people that have watched their work, and I've loved their films. Jimmy Carr actually was there as well. So I know, I say, you know, I know Jimmy through stand-up and doing TV and stuff. So it always feels You're like Oh that's someone I can say hello to If I get uncomfortable Where I can Hey how's it going And Jimmy's so like You know that Jimmy He's a really like Like he's so smart In a sense Or like He always gives me Great advice But just short I see him on a train Actually weirdly enough In Manchester Come back from Manchester And I was like How you been He's like Yeah I'm good I'm good I'm just going to Show my family Yeah how are you I said yeah good Bit tiny He's like What you want to do Is get some IVs man Just chill out get your IV drips in I'm like oh thanks bye see you later bro like but we get this brunch and me and my friend are a bit like cool we got you know food there like and drink and stuff and it's not so much I shriveled but I was like I've never been someone to just go up to someone and be like hey how you doing I'm oh nice to meet you especially in this setting as well so I was just kind of observing and then Dave goes to my friend Chavan who he knows because Jovan, he's his tour manager.

44:44And he's here, like for last night, for example, Dave was here, Jovan worked on the show. And Dave was like, hey, what's up, Jovan? How's it going? And Jovan was like, oh, you remember me? Yeah, nice to meet you. He's like, yeah. And then Jovan was like, oh, this is Mo. Hey, what's up, Dave? How you doing? You all right? He's like, yeah, what's up, man? Cool. And started talking. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, bro, this is Dave Chappelle here. But then, you know, I've always admired is sometimes when you get around these people who have seen their films and seen their music, you've watched them play sport and you then get a moment where you're like oh I'm in your company there's like four of us having a random conversation and you're just like bro you're a normal person like in a way that you're like the way you carry yourself so cool so down to earth so humble and it just gives you you're just like if you're like that then and you just got time for my friend who's a tour manager and myself then there's no excuse for being a diva in any way because, again, him being there, everyone wants to talk to him, but he's giving his time and he's just humble and we're just having a chat.

45:49But yeah, I did kind of shrivel a little bit, you know. And I was at the brunch and we left. I drove back to the house we were staying in LA and I think I sat in the car for about an hour because adrenaline-wise, I was like, wow that was I don't and it's weird I've never really done that before like I've gone to things that is like you know big profile names there before but I was like wow that was that was mad but also it gave me this I need to work hard and I need to work harder because do you think it was being around them? part of it was being around them but there was also a part where we took this big picture together and I had comics that would come up to me.

46:37And I'll be honest, I had massive imposter syndrome being there. But I had comments come up to me and be like, oh, Mo, how's it going, man? Love your work. And I'm like, right, you know who I am. And that was a moment where I was like, no, Mo, you was meant to be there. You didn't get invited because, you know, it was like, just add loads of names. It was very invite only. And I'm like, no, I'm meant to be there. Like, I'm meant to be here in LA too. And I'm meant to go to this thing. And I was meant to meet Dave Chappelle. and I was like, yeah, like I need to work harder. Like if I settle for like the things I've settled for before, I know I could sell out those shows in London.

47:13But do I know I could sell out another O2? I don't know, but I know I can do this thing. So I text my manager and then two weeks later, we had booked the O2 and then, yeah. There's echoes in what you're saying, Mo, around an interview we did with Catherine Ryan. And she spoke about how she credited her success to an emotional intelligence. And what she meant by that was that when she would see a comedian, say, with a Saturday night show, she used to say, I'm really jealous of them. And then when she explored it, she went, actually, I'm not jealous, I'm envious, because I think I could do a good Saturday night show.

47:48And it gave her a far more productive approach rather than thinking, how do I get them? How do I get that reward? So what would you say has been the role of emotional intelligence in your life where you find yourself surrounded by bigger and bigger names in your industry. What does that do for you? I think it inspires me in ways to, you know, people that I've grown up watching, I've been around, and you hear the way that they apply themselves in their craft. You sit there and you're like, oh, wow. Like, you know, you wake up at this time to do that or, you know, you're willing to do that extra hour.

48:28so when you get around these people I'm always a sponge in the sense of okay cool I've got that little nugget from you I didn't even ask for it I've just met you in the capacity of what I met you in but you know the nuggets that they drop and you're like oh yeah that is that's important what you've said you know that is inspiring that is challenging and just seeing them wanting more as well I think you know you can be around people and like yeah I'm doing this but I want to do this and I want to do that and you're like oh wow if you're setting them goals for yourself then what's stopping me setting myself those goals it's free to set a goal, it doesn't cost nothing write it down on a bit of paper but it's executing it, it's the hard part I think my emotional intelligence is really trying to, I think for me it's always been understanding my audience more than ever because they're the ones who I always say change my life so I have to really understand my audience for the show I'm able to deliver and how I can connect with them.

49:30So what I mean by understanding my audience is when we're putting tour tickets on sale, doing it at a price that is affordable, what time the show starts, what time it finishes, what they want to hear from me in my life. Do they want to hear the stuff that I've done on TV? Are they just here for a laugh? So I think I've always really viewed my audience... You know, sometimes the things that I do that they're like, yeah, you weren't really feeling that. And not taking it as a personal jab because when you start to kind of get a bit of notoriety, you can take things personally as well. But also I also try to disconnect in some ways.

50:11It's beautiful telling people you're great. You know what I mean? Like if we all woke up and we had 10 people to say, good morning, you are the best. Like it is a beautiful feeling, but I have to also disconnect from that. Because I don't think that's also a good thing. Because you're going to get negativity of what your job is. You're rubbish. You're not good at doing this. And that's okay. But also I feel like the way that you can disconnect from the negativity is disconnect from the praise for me. So I think where, going back to my emotional intelligence in that, is kind of listening to what people have as advice and understanding people.

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53:04Talking of disconnecting from negativity, I want to talk to you about a moment where I really felt sorry for you. As a TV presenter, I know that it's a higher wire act. Yeah, yeah. Without a safety net. You know what I'm going to say? What am I going to talk about? You're going to talk about the Brits? Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was all... Do you know what was really funny? I felt like it was the one moment, I think, in my career where, like... You know what I'm saying? It's just like the winds. Everything's booming. And I think on the day, the first time I'd done the Brits, I was so nervous. Oh, I was nervous, man.

53:38Like a bag of nerves. Like, because everything was like, you know, the suit was on point. Oswald Boateng's suit, Favour watch on, custom cufflinks, I'm at the O2, Adele's there, still acid. Everything just went to plan. Second time, it was like, okay, cool, I've done this before. You know what it's like in TV, sometimes when it's live, but for me, I'm always like, get the first link right, we're cool. First link goes right, says what, say what, And boom, it goes right. I said, yeah, I'm vibing now. And then there was like, cool, you're going to be on the floor. You're going to interview this person.

54:16I'm on the floor interviewing people. Shania Twain. I said, Shania Twain, you're all right? Yeah, yeah, cool, cool. Stormzy, what are you saying? You're not eating that. Let me eat that. Like, I'm really in my element. And it was so funny because this one guy was just like, oh, mate, you're not going to pick on me, are you? I said, nah, bro, you're cool, man. You're cool, cool. I said, I'm going to introduce the next act. He was like, okay, cool, cool, cool. and he goes, oh yeah, you're doing a great job, mate. I said, oh, thanks, man. And I have an exec producer I work with called Rianne. She worked on the latest show.

54:46She's always been one of my point of contact. Whenever I do TV, she's like my anchor. I need Rianne this in some capacity. And I said, cool. Yeah, he's like, ah, Rianne, five, four. And I'm like, so this next act. And we had this joke that we was going to do and then I think we decided to scrap it. but I was like alright cool I'm vibing in it so then I'm like and our next actor Sam Capaldi and it was so funny because this one guy goes who? and I'm like what? I was like you didn't want me to pick on you so I was like and then he performed and then I was like something feels weird I don't know what it is and I had them in my ear they was like Mo you've got to apologise and I'm like I was like what did I say?

55:31I didn't get what I said and then I was like oh because previously before that guy I said hello to Sam what's he oh no not Sam Smith it is Sam oh with the long hair Sam Ryder Sam Ryder so me and Sam was talking and was having like he's like yeah I want to do your show blah blah and then I was like you've got to apologise I was like yeah of course you know it's his moment I'll definitely apologise you know and then just like oh yeah cool like just got his name wrong but hey this is a Brit anything can happen and then I seen Sam I'm sorry I seen Lewis he comes up to me and I said bro I'm so sorry and he was like mate don't worry about it man I was on stage and I was like who the hell is Sam?

56:19I didn't know who that was and it was just a vibe and we started laughing carried on with the show and then I went to the next day I flew to LA jet lagged and then it was really if I'm honest like like a full because I'm there now on their Monday morning. So I'm like, oh, I'm not really heard anything, seen anything go online. It's like, viewers are outraged. And I was like, what? I just called him Simon said to Lewis. But then weirdly, it's like, the Brits is all over the place. You know, it's one of those shows you do when it's like, you know, and I've done it the first year. One of the performers didn't perform.

56:57I had to change it. So I think it goes with the kind of craziness of what the Brits is in some ways. And I do have a nice little laugh about it. I get on taxi driving. It's like, Oi, what's happening? It's only Sam Capoli in the back. And I'm like, ha ha ha ha ha. But it's a nice fun moment where I think I'm always lucky because I'm a comic and I'm a comedian. I can tell the story one day. I think it's harder if you're an actual presenter because you're judged more in your craft. And I think as a comic, you're like, well, you know, he's a comic. Like maybe he planned it. But it was fun. It was, I can't lie.

57:32There's a part of me that was like because I'm so safe so sometimes when you do something you're like oh I didn't go to plan you're like oh well I'm human do you know what I mean like no no more Spider-Man alright fair enough so yeah yeah man and I love the fact you can sit and laugh about it and it's absolutely the right thing because I think when you do that job or this job you can get you can actually think it's way more serious than it is but it literally doesn't matter 100 % man yeah yeah but then I don't know whether you're the same I very much have been in a place where you're really hard on yourself for those little mistakes.

58:04Yeah. So how were you with yourself after that? Oh, I was fine. You know, I had to kind of, I paused for a minute and I was like, sorry, look where I am. It's Monday morning. I'm in LA. I've got some work stuff I'm going to do here. I've just done the Brits. Had an amazing after party. And the person whose name I got wrong was absolutely fine by it. So in all, I can't, I couldn't be hard on myself. I was just like, there's a time that I used to watch that show in my house chilling in my tracksuit bottoms and tweeting about it. Do you know what I mean? And I've just hosted it. So, yeah, I knew it wasn't one of those things in my career.

58:43I was like, oh, God, that's... For all they're going to play that on Channel 5 on the bloopers reel. Do you know what I mean? I was just like, it's part of the job. I'll tell you what, actually, the real problem is for a comedian is when you said, you went on the internet and you said viewers are outraged, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. An issue for a comedian is fake outrage, right? Yeah. And then people can be outraged about the fact they weren't initially outraged when everyone else is outraged, and therefore they become outraged, and suddenly everyone's outraged about something they were never outraged about in the first place.

59:09But the fact they were all outraged can cause a real issue for the person that outraged everyone, even though they weren't outraged. It's like this eco thing of like, I'm mad, you be mad too, let's all be mad. Now you're going to be mad at the madness. I'm just like, it's... Yeah, I try my best to really disconnect with... You know, I do the thing on the camera, and I do it as long as everyone's comfortable, and then I've got to kind of go home and lead my own life a little bit. How can you be a comedian, push the boundaries, find out where the line is? Yeah. I mean, we've spoken about Jimmy Carr, he's been there and done it, right?

59:40Ricky Gervais has made a career out of it, particularly in recent years. Yeah. How do you find that line with that awareness that actually if you overstep it in the modern world, it can be serious? I think, you know, it's always tailored to the comic because if you're a comic and that's your brand and what people know you as, then that's your goal in terms of in my craft and in my art this is how I push myself whereas I think for me I've never been even when I was in the clubs I've never been someone who feels like I need to talk on this subject and share it with the world I need to make comedy like this I know when people come to my show they want to disconnect you know my audience are very much like we want escapism the minute I start talking about what's happening in the world they're like oh this ain't our reference point for you you know maybe this person it is but we don't expect this from you and you know some people can say yeah but give them something that they don't want but I'm like yeah but as a shop if I go in there for soap I want to make sure I'm selling soap I'm not offering shower gel do you know what I mean so I think for me it's important to give people what they want and what they're paying for and what their brand is and I think how I push myself as a comic is making the shows bigger in terms of, like for me, as I said, I go for the showmanship.

1:01:02So I want to make sure your experience from getting into leaving is whole. Not just the segment for an hour, it's what the DJ plays. And I'm like, bro, we're not in them. They want to hit the Oldsville Garage, bro. Bump it up. That's where I really, really start to kind of enjoy. And I think every comic's different. You know, it's interesting as a comic because I get asked that question a lot. You know, it's just like, oh, oh, are you going to be a bit more risque? And I'm like, you either are or you're not. And there's comics out there that they have their brand and that's their thing. And I'm now in a place where what I give to people is the stuff I sit there for a year and I work on.

1:01:42And if I'm like, okay, cool. So this is happening politically, but my show's next year, September. The landscape's going to change. And now I'm sitting there stressed and I can't perform at a high level that I want to. You know, so I think for every comic is really unique to what their art and creativity is, you know. So can I ask you about that then? Because you don't like, you hear lots of pop stars say that the first album's always easiest to write because you've got a lifetime to write it and then you've got a year to write the second one. Yeah, yeah. And often when you write that second one, your life has changed irrevocably.

1:02:16Oh yeah, of course. You play in bigger arenas, you're doing the breaks, you're going to LA brunches and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. how do you still keep it relatable when your world is becoming increasingly glamorous yeah it's the hardest thing because the first one the first album and same with my first tour it was like my first special I'd had 10 well however long I started I started when I was 19 and I think I brought that out when I was first special Momentum on Netflix was I think I was about 30 29, 30 so I had like 10 years 10, 11 years of stuff ready to go and I'm like cool I'm ready.

1:02:53Let me out. Here we go. And it's that feeling where people are like, oh, wow, because people have kind of gravitated to me through the videos I've done on social media. So by the time we were coming to shows, they were like, oh, can you do comedy? I've not seen any of your stuff. And I'm like, perfect. Blank canvas. You have nothing to judge me on. But then it's like you're saying, you get a little bit of money, get success. You get, you know, let's say a bit of a sprinkle of fame in there. And you mix it all up. and then you're like, all right, now how can you then inspire us for the next thing?

1:03:26and I think for the next special I kind of looked at what my special was in the first one and what I was speaking about and I kind of went to the mold of what musicians do a little bit for their albums my first one and what I'm talking about in my tour is a coming of age special I would say talk about asking your mum for money and can I get an ice pole and you're grounded but this was me as a teenager to a grown man and then it is hard it's very very hard to write that second one because you have you need that you don't have the hunger you know what I mean I think you write and perform at your best is when you're skint you know and you're like oh man I need to make things work I need to get to the drawing board and but when you don't it becomes something where you're like okay how can I I need that hunger because I don't have that and now I'm getting opportunities I never thought was even possible so I think for the second one I really had to tune in to where I was now in life and understand what people liked and they it's not so much they didn't like but like I was like yeah you guys like this thing like you know you like that piece of comedy and really tune into that and expand it but yeah I think with for me as a comic I need a year to write like and just find myself different experiences go to different places it brings out my material.

1:04:56I think when I had a year of just doing TV it didn't bring out much of me because you're in the studio you go back home you got summer off you go back in the studio. I think for this tour I've been able to experience life a bit more go on holidays but also go to places I've never been before speak about my vulnerabilities and talk about me going to therapy as a comic which always can be a touchy subject but in a way that it's like Like, I'm going to expose myself with this thing and tell you what therapy is like, but my perspective of it. And I think that's, when we're going back to how you push yourself, that's how you do it.

1:05:33But also finding the writing within yourself, you know, of like, give me a year, I can write the thing, but I've got to experience life to write the thing, you know. Can I ask you about that last topic, talking about going to therapy as a comic? Because they often say that, you know when people are laughing you can pop a real idea in yeah yeah yeah time and yeah i think it's important in this day and age that we're able to talk about going and seeking help where we need it would you tell us a little bit about what prompted you to go on what you learned from therapy i think i think therapy for me was i think for me it was normalizing to not speak of how i felt as as a man who's so used to like boxing it all up and being like well my goal is to make you lot laugh so let me not speak about anything that brings the mood down or how I feel because my my job is always to look for the funny and then make you laugh whether that's on stage whether that's with my friends whether that's with my family um it was always I'm gonna make you laugh I'm gonna make you laugh but then at the same time I never wanted to look at the aspects of my life where I I want to speak about how I felt in that moment.

1:06:49I want to express my discomfort in something. I don't really like confrontation. So you kind of box that up and then you're like, well, I'm not really confronting what I feel like, what are my issues. So for me, when it comes to therapy, it was this way where I was able to work on myself internally. you know what I say internally is the the ways of how you think how sometimes I could see how people might portray me where sometimes it's in your head a little bit and sometimes it is things where you're able to address situations and you say oh I was wrong in that thing but I can I can also see how I can make myself better as well um and I think that's for me and I'm always you know I tell my friends a lot like like try therapy man just try it you know you might go once a month I go at least once a week once every two weeks different aspects sometimes they're career based sometimes they're personal sometimes I am in a place where things are going great so it might be like oh I don't really need to go innit but I'm like no I still need to go because I don't want to go to this thing and always look at therapy as like a negative of like things go bad we go to that place it's like going there at moments where I'm like, wow, everything's going great.

1:08:13But what still can I change or what do I need to get out of myself? But yeah, I think therapy has been so important for me in so many ways in a way that I'm able to make sure I keep challenging myself. I think that's really important. And just speaking out, you know, I think as men, we just learn to kind of box our emotions in sometimes, you know, and that could be big things that happen in our life and it could just be small things and I think therapy has allowed me to understand who I am and also challenge those things on myself instead of avoiding confrontation, you know, meeting it head on, you know, and it's like I go back to the tasks because we travel so much for the tour and I'm like, yeah, I think someone pushes in the queue.

1:09:02I think I'm going to say something this time. That's my task. If someone pushes in or, you know, Because I'm so used to being, you go. And I'm like, no, sorry, there's a queue. And I think that's the task I give myself. But that's mainly paranormal that come from therapy, if I'm completely honest. And just knowing that you go out and you try to make everyone laugh where you're like, I need to just have the me time for myself a little bit. So yeah, big, big advocate of therapy. what's the therapy? because it sounds like so much of what you were doing was giving to other people and there wasn't enough looking after yourself I think it's the MOT you have on yourself we can do a lot of things for ourselves for our health go to the gym, eat right and stuff but mental health is just as important it doesn't matter if you have a lot of money or if you don't have any money therapy is there and is really important I've been going probably now for about, I'd say, close to four or five years now.

1:10:07Again, sometimes I can have a few weeks off, a month off, because I'm like, things are going great and I'm on tour. But just even if I can do it on Zoom and I'm away, I speak about it in my stand-up of understanding the world that I'm in. My discomforts, my joys, I think as well, as a comic, you're very approachable. You know, if I'm on the train, I've had people to sit next to me and be like, oh, mate, how's it going? Oh, where are you going? I'm going to Manchester. Oh, nice, me too. Me and the boys are going, yeah. And like, that's what you get as a comic. We give so much out. We're so friendly.

1:10:41People watch us on a screen and they're like, oh yeah, I feel like I know him, you know. But also realizing that when I go therapy, this is my time to kind of like take a step back and be in the moment as such, as opposed to looking far ahead, looking at you know my plan is tonight to make you laugh you know not singing the song that you've heard 10 000 times is to give you the thing that you've never heard before so i think therapy for me is being in the moment of listening to someone else and me like speaking to them in in the moment you know not like i've got to make this woman laugh as a therapist hey hey it's that i don't need to do that you know it must be quite freeing to sit there thinking i don't have to form in front of this person.

1:11:29Yeah, it is. It really is. But also just learning to do things that when I can't go therapy, go for walks in the park every now and then and just sit on a bench. That's what I do. I just go to, I shouldn't say cold, but I go to a very quiet park. There's a bench I sit on and just listen and just hear. Like, it's nice to hear nothing. You know, I'm not looking, there's no funny there. Do you know what I mean? I'm not like, oh, them squirrels. You could, it's not, you know what I mean? this it's nice to just sometimes like do nothing and i think that's what i've really tried my best in teaching myself of just enjoying the calm you know was there one specific moment because i think this is very powerful for our audience and we talk often about mental health on high performance which we love like high performance if it isn't having stable solid mental health well then what is high performance right this is the foundation of everything was there one moment or one period of your life where you realise actually like you can't deal with it on yourself and bottling it up is not going to be the answer which a lot of people still think is the answer.

1:12:34I'd probably say that the lowest I felt it was probably when so around the time I got offered a show at Channel 4, so that we're talking 2017 so I just got that nice big check going to Channel 4 and I had no idea what I was going in there for you know myself and my manager of Polly, my manager of Polly's been with me from the start as well. It's not just someone who's just like, oh, you're doing well, snap him up. It was like, from the start, so it was always someone where it was, I know I could trust this person, but also, we didn't know what we was going there for. So we go into the building, and it's got a huge four on it.

1:13:16It's like an iron or steel, I'm not too sure. And then you go in there, great to have you here. This lady called Saida and Becky sat me down and they said, oh, we love what you're doing. And I thought, oh, maybe they might want to do like a shorts thing on, maybe on YouTube with, I don't know, if it is a TV thing, it might be something like I've got an E4, you know, comes on at 11 or something. I didn't, that would have been great at that time. He said, listen, we love what you're able to do. We see great things and we would love for you to have your own show on Channel 4. And my mind just went, Like it was a moment That I felt like My life is going to change After I walk out this door My life will never be the same again Not to say that If they didn't offer me that It still would have changed But I just knew in that moment And once I left that door I said Your life is changing But the flip side to that is Is that as happy as I was mentally I was in a horrible mental place because I didn't, you know like I went from not having not a lot of money to then like making myself feel happy was going and buying a Stone Island jacket and all these things and I knew my life was going to change and I didn't know what to do because I was like what do you do innit?

1:14:43Are people going to like the show? Are they not? Am I good enough? I don't know if I'm good enough and I'll never forget I walked from there all the way to Marble Arch and then from Marble Arch I'd went through the back of Bond Street and then through Bond Street, Covent Garden around again to about Soho and I'll never forget the moment because I always remember feeling like I'd walked all this way my legs didn't feel tired but my brain was thinking of all this stuff and it just carried on I was like just keep walking, just keep going and I was so happy but at the same time I was so I couldn't enjoy it because in the place where I was, I was like well I've just been broke and I've been skinned and like I've just paid off this credit card and I've got a bit of money but this money might not last but say they don't like me and so it was all those things that was going through my mind of a joyous moment but also it was this kind of dark bit in the back of your head where you're like, I don't know if you're good enough for this, are we good enough for this And yeah, I always say like, you know, when I won the BAFTA for the TV show, that was the free circle moment.

1:15:55Because in my head, I was like, well, if I win, I'll say this. And I've got this nice Tom Ford jacket on and like, oh, yeah, I'll be all right. And I crumbled, got on that stage and I'm accepting this award. and I felt like I'd beat that demon off of doubt and worry and how are you going to cope with this? And I remember being on stage and I look out and Royal Festival Hall and everyone's there. And I'm like, I remember the moment when I got offered the thing and I didn't know if I could do it. I didn't know if I was funny enough. I didn't know all those doubters. And then picking up, I was like, oh, wow.

1:16:34And I'll be honest, like there was a moment where it felt like it had just disappeared. And then I was like, ah, I've done the thing. Like, we didn't think we could do this. And then we'd done the thing. And it always used to be a goal of mine to win a BAFTA. It was, I don't know why it was a goal, but it was always a goal. So that day I remember winning it. We had a great after party. And the next day I was so shattered. I didn't even drink, but just purely off emotion. and yeah I felt like anything's possible in some ways but that was probably my worst state in terms of like mentally like being present but not there you know the lights are on but there's no one home you know there's food in the kitchen but there's no gas to cook it essentially and that's kind of what I always remember it feeling like a little bit you know thank you so much for sharing that no thank you before we move on to our quickfire questions the final question on this topic that first therapy session is pretty special isn't it I mean some people in my case you just sit and cry for the whole time and think what was that all about other people it all blurts out of them yeah what do you remember from those early days where something was said and you thought wow suddenly things are making sense here I think one thing that always stuck with me was it's alright to not be okay because I think at the time I was so I want to make everyone laugh I want to do this I want to do that but I always remember I remember being ready for therapy and being like oh here we go I'm going to tell you everything man and then you get you do therapy they go you're like I'm ready you start spilling out and they go what what well that's time then and next week and I was like what like there's so much more back in here man like but I always remember just like my therapist saying to me she said it's okay to not be okay and it always stuck with me because when I have those moments now I can take a pause and I say I'm not alright I am a bit sad I am finding this difficult like I did realise it but I think it meant more so much then it sticks more if that makes sense of you know my therapist saying it's okay to not you know to be okay to be sad to be to be vulnerable to cry all of those things felt like when they did happen, I could always go back to that moment and say, I'm feeling like this because I'm upset.

1:19:07I'm feeling like this because I'm under pressure and I don't know how to deal with it. And yeah, that was always the sticking point for me. And I think that's always been the thing that made me want to go back, you know, because I think sometimes you can go therapy and it becomes this, you know, I don't know, I feel like I'm telling too much business and I think having those moments of like it's all right to not be okay to be sad or but also just understanding I think what I've started to realize as I've gone is like take a moment to what it feels like to be happy yeah you know I said to my therapist about a year ago I had this one I said I remember driving I was like I had this five minutes and I felt so happy and I was like wow she was like yes like enjoy those moments like you know it's not it's not a bad thing that you felt happy, you know?

1:19:59And I was like, yeah, but I felt bad because I hadn't done this. And she's like, no, but like in that moment, that was your pure self. And yeah, I always tried to like make a note of like, ah, I remember that time I was happy, happy. And tried to really bask in the glory of that a little bit. Because sometimes you can feel guilty of like sometimes feeling too happy. So yeah, I've always tried to look at that and hold on to that moment as long as possible as well. There's just one final thing I want to talk to you about. I spoke to someone today before you came on just to find out what you were like.

1:20:33And you're pleased to know this person described you as one of the nicest people they've ever worked with. Oh, wicked man. They also said I should say to you, Vabs. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did I get it right? She said you've got to say it in the right way. I obviously didn't because I saw your face. You were like, what is he talking about? Vabs, how do you say it? I say vibes. What does she say? But Aunty Davina is like, Vabs. She also told me quite randomly she goes we send each other lots of pictures of otters holding hands Like Davina right Davina McCall when I first done Mars Singer I was so nervous like and I sat next to Davina and I was sitting next to her you know she's actually very much like oh like I've seen comedy my daughters are big fans and my sons and stuff and you know we sit next to each other on the show and you know and I got to do the Brits I've written my book And I'm like, hey Divina, guess what?

1:21:26I'm doing that She goes, oh my god And it's so genuine But like, she's done so much within TV And she's so grounded But also just, when it comes to advice She's not, do this, do that, do this She's just like, it's as honest, it's pure And then like, I said to her I was just like, once Because we had to do press once And they said, oh, if you could be on The Masked Singer Who would you be? I said, I like otters They're my thing And Divina, oh my god, I love them too I said, hey, look I found his page, otters, look at this so we send each other otter videos in it like but now davina and i remember when i when i had my own podcast and i said oh would you would you be up for doing it she's like yeah i'll do it so supportive but also it's like seeing someone who's done it from you know she started off in the 90s in the early 2000s it's 2010s and up into doing it now and like some of the things i ask her and she'd be like, sometimes I say, Davina, how many liked those fitness DVDs you sell?

1:22:24And she goes, I don't know, but like, probably done about at least 10 million. I said 10. But it's just like, it's not a brag for her in any way, but it's just that work ethic of what she's done in her career, but still so grounded. Like, cool. Like, you know, I remember getting a season ticket for the first time for Arsenal. Her son's a big Arsenal fan. And I was like, I got a season ticket, but I can't go. I said, do you want to go with your son she goes oh my god thank you oh i'll give you some i said no i just yeah you know you're just good people do you know i mean you want to do good things for good people man do you know i mean but yeah yeah like one of the most down-to-earth genuine people like within you know television and i'd call her a friend as well i was saying i don't have a lot of people who are friends within the industry in a way but like top top people man got a lot yeah bigger i call her auntie divina as well in it so if you were like divina mccall i'm like it's actually it's actually auntie Davina so yeah she's one of the rare ones yes we were exchanging messages about you being on here and she said the biggest thing that she's learned is how unbelievably grateful she is yeah with what she's been through and where she is now and I think with the conversation we've just had it's a great reminder for all of us that you don't know what's around the corner oh yeah most definitely man you know the way that she's dealt with it I think is incredible isn't it yeah yeah it's hard like going through those things because you know you spend our lives trying to do this stuff and make it better and bigger and, you know, get to heights we want to get to.

1:23:53But life can change in seconds, minutes, days, do you know what I mean? Where everything just has to go on the back burner and it gets a bit real. So, yeah, you know, I know when she went through that, I sent her a message of, you know, getting well soon and stuff and whatnot. And, yeah, those things are never easy. Do you know what I mean? But, yeah, Davina's a proper warrior, man. but good just like good peoples man got a lot of time for Davina Warrior Warrior is the word yeah man she is a warrior she runs you know sometimes she goes she's like I've got a meeting she'll run in central she goes running for her backpack I'm like sometimes I say you're Davina McCall you just run she goes yeah jump on the tube and then I start running I said who am I to not want to go to the park and run because someone might recognise me come on man like we have no excuses yeah yeah good peoples Davina very good quick fire questions go for it

1:24:50three non-negotiable behaviours that are most important to you non-negotiable I think being rude to others around you as a trait it's just like you can't be rude you know nah that's just not a vibe being rude is definitely one my mind's gone blank but that's definitely the top one we'll take that as all three yes can I come back to it of course you may are there more okay because I know they're gonna I know I'm gonna leave and be like oh that's that's the one yeah politeness and the reason why that one's different is it's very important to say please and thank you it's so important politeness is like hold the door open for someone they might not say thank you but it will leave you with something politeness is so key I tell that to my nephews a lot say please say thank you don't be rude to the other people around you and it's not really a non-negotiable but it's really I would always say you have to be in the present man sometimes I'm around people and they're talking and they're like yeah and what we do next year and I'm like bro enjoy this moment man it will never happen again so enjoy this moment I say it to a lot of comics when they support me on tour and I say this weekend you're performing to 10 ,000 people enjoy that 20 minutes on stage don't worry about whether they liked it they didn't, how many tickets you're going to sell just really enjoy it, like being in the moment is such a rare thing for so many people to do, I can't say it's a non-negotiable because myself sometimes it can be my own habit but I think when you do the thing that you love, it has to be you have to enjoy that moment because it's the best thing ever when it works.

1:26:41Brilliant. You know, so yeah. I don't know if that was quickfire, but... Very much not quickfire. The total opposite of quickfire. What advice would you give a teenage mo? Teenage mo is to be consistent. That's all I would give. Just be consistent in your craft. I could say, hey man, invest in Bitcoin and do all this other stuff. But consistency is key for anyone at a young age. you know don't worry about the fame and the glitz and the glamour consistency yeah what is the best piece of advice you've ever been given? I can't say the last word of this but the best piece of advice someone said is don't be a C word because people will always remember you by it and it will never not stick you can change your life but they'll always say he used to be a this person or they might be like oh I've worked with him he's a real it never goes that word I realised that it will never go people say oh yeah I'm so proud of him but you know when I worked with him he was a C word I never understood it at the time but the more I was able to do what I'd done and what I do now I get it so much more never be that word because it sticks and it never unsticks basically so yeah we have an app where we offer people habits that they can incorporate into their daily life?

1:28:07What's the single most important habit that you use? I would always say have a routine. As small as it is, have a routine. If you, it might be a routine of when you drive, you always take a certain route. Always take that, if you're going that way, always take that route because it's your routine. It's the way, it's the thing that you enjoy doing because routine is so small that, and it doesn't have to be everything in your day. I think there's too much information now. I wake up at 5am and drink water and ice baths. And I think have your routine. If your routine is to have a double espresso every morning, that could just be it.

1:28:44Do you know what I mean? I think routine is so important because it gives you that, okay, I'm going to wake up, double espresso, start the day. I'm going to wake up, take that driving route, drop off the kids, same day. It's your routine and then build on it. But routine is, I think it's really key, man. Yeah. And the final question for people that have listened to this amazing 90 minutes we've been talking for can you believe wow I know absolutely it's been brilliant your golden rule for living a high performance life what would you like to leave ringing in people's ears oh my my golden rule is when it's going really well give yourself 10 seconds to enjoy that moment because that's what you do it for and it might be 5 seconds it might be 10 seconds but and you're smiling you're laughing or you've just done the thing you're celebrating or you've finished the artwork or you've done the song I think just have a moment to just enjoy it.

1:29:36It could be a split second, it could be an hour, it could be a day, but you will benefit off that for so long. You know, just enjoy that moment you're in, just smile in the moment. So, yeah.

1:29:54Damien. Jake. A really fascinating insight into a brilliant comedian, but also a brilliant guy who I think took us to places in that conversation that we weren't necessarily expecting. Yeah, definitely. I think the latter bit around the work on himself, you know, you use that great line about therapies like going for an MOT on yourself. I think that bit was really illuminating. This is a guy that's had incredible success, but then has also been willing to stop and be self-critical, self-aware, whether that's on the stage or off it. And I think it's that self-awareness that is really powerful. I love the talk early on about, I used to watch back the videos, I'd stand in the back of the room and observe people.

1:30:34I would work out what jokes they would or wouldn't like. The fact that he goes and performs in comedy clubs on a night off just for 10 minutes, not to be the most hilarious guy in the room, but to improve an element of his act or learn a bit more about the way that he performs. That is the reason why Mo Gilligan is where he is. And I know some people will go, oh, Mo, he's been lucky. He's done well out of all the... Like, it's not luck, right? It is that attention to detail that moves you ahead of everybody else. And I think that we have to talk about that. Well, it reminded me, I was glad you mentioned it because I remember you telling me about when you first came to work on the BBC and you were sort of going and asking for feedback.

1:31:13You were going and watching your own videos. You were not going out in the evenings. You were studying. Your craft on the far ahead would resonate with you. Absolutely. Was there any one bit that you took away from? I think the really powerful bit, and it's a throwaway line that people who haven't been in, done his job or done my job, wouldn't necessarily think about but when he just went you know i'd sit and watch stuff back hardly anyone does that you know i've almost every presenter i've ever worked with every comedian i've met every singer that i've had a conversation with they'll do a show and put it to bed and move on to the next one yeah you can't unless you watch it back you literally can't know if it was good or not and maybe they're brighter than me but like when we do an interview i always say to you don't i'm like i'm no idea if that was good or bad yeah because i'm so in the in in the interview like the next question and the flow of it so i i think that um i think that really that really spoke to me and i just the fact that his close mates are still his mates from when he was younger like i don't think that was an act i think that was the genuine mo gilligan who's a nice guy you speak to anyone they tell you that he's a nice guy and his final bit of life advice at the end don't be a c-u-n-t like perfect like nothing more needs to be said right that's great lesson for life right there It reminded me of, one of my favourite books is by a guy called Daniel Coyle, wrote a book called The Talent Code, and he talks about there's three things that you need to achieve high performance.

1:32:33Some of it is you need the ignition, that spark, and he describes Miss Simpson being the one that said maybe you should be on the stage. Then you need to put the hard work in or the deep practice, and then the final one is you need master coaching. Now, interestingly, Mo said that he didn't have a coach, and yet everything he kept offering us was people that were offering really great advice that he was like a sponge and open to. And I think it's the same for you as well as for Mo. I think they're things that any of us can incorporate in our own journey to high performance. I've got a newsflash for Mo.

1:33:05He's surrounded by coaches, from his therapist to his mates, to his manager, to his friends. Thank you, mate. Thank you, mate. Loved it.

1:33:15That's it for today's conversation. Of course, a big thanks to Mo, not just for joining us, but for also being so open about his experiences. It's these kinds of conversations that just move things forwards for everyone. If you enjoyed it, please do make sure you hit the follow button. Please share this episode with someone that you think will enjoy it. And don't forget, you can watch the conversations on the High Performance app, which we think is the best place to enjoy our content. From myself, Damien, and the whole team, see you very soon for another episode of High Performance.

1:33:49Thank you.

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