TOP RATED | Nico Rosberg: The F1 Champion Who Disappeared (E414)

0:04Get the hell back into that car. After becoming Formula One world champion Nico Rosberg has stunned motor racing. I've decided to end my Formula One career. But you were great buddies when you were growing up. We were best friends when we were kids, yeah? There's no relationship. It's proper war. It's like war. This guy is like God whenever he walks into a room. Michael Schumer. He lives and breathes, destroying his teammate mentally. Michael, stop these rubbish games. My engineer says to me on the radio, you now have to pass Verstappen, otherwise you risk losing the world championship. What? So scared, the marginal gains pulls my visor open, push into this discomfort.

0:45I'm like a kid. This is probably the one moment where it's best not to go into the exact details. That's mad, isn't it? Nico, welcome to High Performance. Great to be here, and thanks for making your way all the way to Monaco. It's almost 10 years since you were the guy driving a Formula One car around this track. I really want to explore the last 10 years for you. In that time, have you come to the realization that when you left F1, you were running towards something or you were running away from something? Both. I was running towards my dream, which started as a very young child watching my father race.

1:24He was at the time driving in the European Touring Car Championship. And it was incredible. And that's where the dream started for me, that I would also want to be a professional race car driver. My father was managing Mika Hakkinen's career. Mika Hakkinen became a two-time world champion. So I was watching that very closely. And all that together was okay. I wish I could be that one day myself. But it seemed impossible because those guys were like gladiators. It's like impossible to get there myself. but that's where the dream started so I was running towards that dream but then also once once I did get there the further I got along it's also running away from failure and failing so that was like one of the big driving forces was like trying to do everything I could to avoid failure and yeah to win.

2:15But even in that 2016 season where you became the world champion do you still have that feeling that you were running away from failure even when you'd become the best in the world? That's where it's the most pronounced because you're close to the top of Everest and almost anything you do is a step back down which is failure. So that's where it actually gets the most intense and the most scary in a way. that it's proper scary to fail when you're all the way up there. Let's go to the moment in that you cross the line in Abu Dhabi and then you do know you are the world champion. Then all those fears and all those doubts you can finally put to bed.

3:01Is that the reality of what happened in your head? Crossing the line, first of all, there was just relief. There was no joy. There was no happiness or anything. It was just, oh my God, relief. Did you expect that or did it feel different to how you thought it would feel? Relief and me saying, that's it, I'm done. I've done it. How quickly did you decide? Oh, on the line, on the line. No. Yeah, I'm done. This was like when you're watching at home or you're watching the television, it looks like the easiest thing in the world to drive that little race car, drive it in circles from time to time, win the race.

3:41But when you're in it and you're in that life, it's like super super hard it's very intense this thing which all I think everybody who's in a high performance job will know this feeling but it gets exacerbated even more when you're in the public eye and there's hundreds of millions of people following you live, you're measured by tenths of a second everything is on a knife's edge because driving these race cars is so incredibly hard now some people listening might say oh yada yada yada you're earning the top guys now 50 million a year just shut up and drive but you as a human you're in your little bubble and everybody has their own struggles then and even though you're earning 50 million a year or the best are now then the struggles are still real in that moment even a Lewis Hamilton earning tons of money at Ferrari if you ask him about last year how horrible was it from a scale from 1 to 10 he'll give you a 10 him coming to a new team the whole of Italy slowly but surely turning against him because he's not delivering his young teammate beating him although Lewis is earning much more money that's a horrible situation to be in so I'm pretty sure without speaking to him I don't know but just looking from the outside I think it would have been a pretty horrible situation and there would not have been much fun at all.

5:13Fun would have been probably a one out of ten. So it is, you're on the edge, you know, and it's intense. Right, so this is what I'm interested in. In this period where you're sharing the team with Lewis, did you have to stop being the real Nico Rosberg? Oh, totally. Because the real Nico Rosberg is way too nice. So what were you doing? Give us an example. I had to push and be tougher sometimes, even though it didn't come naturally to me. What, face to face? you have the same example with Lando Lando generally people will say he's just too nice in wheel to wheel battle he he he has always lost against Max in the time when they in the last years every wheel to wheel battle against Max he lost out because what Lando needs to do once is just hold his ground cause a crash yeah and that will send a message to Max oh he's changing he's becoming more ferocious maybe I need to calm it down a bit next time against him because otherwise we're going to crash and you just have to do that.

6:11So did you do that? Well, we crashed, right? You did. Barcelona, 2016. Yeah. That's just me consciously saying I have to be more firm. I have to not yield. Are you glad that happened? Naturally, I would yield. Like I did so often before that. And I had to push myself hard and it was part of my visualization, repetitions that I was doing in meditation. I was working very hard on that, visualizing myself not yielding, and being firm in my position. That was a strong part of my visualization. And even I was meditating with posture. You meditate with a posture of strength. And it's all these details that add up.

7:00And then in the heat of the moment, that preparation helps to hold your ground and not yield. and unfortunately then of course it led to quite a few crashes. And unfortunately because Lewis is such a genius, most of the time it was more my fault than his fault. But are you actually glad that you clied it? But it didn't matter. Look, in hindsight it was still for me, I had to do that. But it sent a message to him? I had to do that because it sent a message to him. I think it took him back a little bit. Oh, something's changing here with Nico. He's not the Mr. Nice Guy anymore. and that was a very important ingredient to then having a chance to actually beat him one day.

7:41And I don't know whether you've spoken about this before, but when the big incident happened in Barcelona, did Mercedes come to you both and say, you're fired? First of all, there was the, you know Toto throwing the headset on the table, destroying the headset? There was a that moment without the headset though. there was no there was no headset in his hand what he just smashed his hand no but he came in hard did he he came in he was like what the hell are you guys doing out there because Red Bull we handed the win to Red Bull of course that's the worst thing you can do you know hand the win to to the the fierce enemy Red Bull that's the most horrible thing so Toto was not happy with that and but did he say you two are fired until you come back and apologize it never came to that fired thing no but I know he actually had internal discussions yeah With the big boss, Dita Seche.

8:34About that. About firing you both. About taking that step as a... I don't think it was probably suspending or something. Would it have been a first step for a race? Yeah. Something like that. So there was actually that conversation behind closed doors. It never came to us. That's pretty crazy. And how did you feel when you heard that? I didn't hear it at the time. What Toto did was he put a contract on the table that we had to sign. And it was 50-50 of the damage. I had to pay myself. And it didn't matter whose fault it was. So even if it was 90 % Louis's fault, I had to pay 50-50 of the actual damage we caused.

9:15So one of the crashes, I had to pay$360 ,000 was what I had to pay. So that definitely calmed us down. That was expensive. That was not really a fun exercise. so one crash was$360 ,000. That was expensive. So that was one thing he did, contract on the table. One thing that they could have done better, the most important thing is, again, a lot of communicating. Preparing for every possible scenario as best you can. And the team also could have done, but it's hard to predict all these things. You can't predict that there's going to be such wheel-to-wheel incidents with teammates. But they could have done more effort really laying out exactly whose fault it is in what different situation.

10:04And we did a good job then in doing more and more of that. So it was really like, really all the way to the details. Like if your tire is there, then it's the inside car, his corner. And, but if you're blah, blah, blah. So we really went to the extent of every single detail. He's adding so much more to think about. You have to, you have to, because at least you have guidelines that you can then refer to afterwards. Because if you have a crash and it's a big, big fight behind those doors because no one really knows who's at fault, then it really becomes difficult because then people take sides and you feel unfairly treated.

10:41And that's when it all spirals out of control completely. Still to come, Nico tells us what it was really like sharing teams with Lewis Hamilton. Business is booming, but you know what really helped? Zero. The accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think spreadsheets were just part of it. Ugh. But real-time cash flow? Wow. Invoices that chase themselves? Even better. Books that automate? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No spreadsheet in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply.

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13:09Were you talking to each other? There's no relationship. No, there's no relationship. It's proper war. It's like war. There's no relationship. Don't talk about it. Don't talk. War. Really? but you were great buddies when you were growing up yes but when you fight for a world championship you will always compromise the friendship for getting the world championship unfortunately it's just so it's such a big dream that that you'll just if you choose you will choose the world championship over that friendship it's not like we were best friends at the time anyway we were best friends when we were kids yeah but then we kind of anyways drifted apart during our careers and we got on we got on well but we're not best friends anymore and then between getting on well or winning a world championship you'll choose winning a world championship and to win a world championship you need to exploit the grey areas all the time you need to in wheel to wheel races you cannot just be the nice guy you need to push into the grey area hold your ground because that's the other guy's got to do it too so you've got to go there you're almost living together you have engineering meetings together you're in the garage together you're at media days as you can imagine it's maybe not the most comfortable environment so would you just not talk no talk

14:26Jake Humphrey: but how would you prepare for that because you're not that's not you though yeah that's not you that's not me no so what would you do before you were walking into what could be a contentious meeting how would you prepare to be able to be the battle ready I'm not good at that that's the problem I was not good at that that's and I didn't have anybody to help me because my dad was not there at the track because we agreed that it was better because I put a lot more pressure on my shoulders when my dad was there because it's so important for me to, I want him to be proud and I want to impress him. I want, I need his recognition.

14:59So when he was there, I always got a little bit extra pressure and we kind of realized that. And so that's why he then stayed back and didn't come so much to races anymore, which is great. Yeah, so it's never really a strength of mine to know exactly what the right thing to say, the right version of the truth. You know, remember Lando can say a perfect lap or I messed up turn 10, both is the truth and I was not good at that and Lewis was very very good at that like in meetings saying the right thing and that's a it's a battle off the track it's a huge battle because it's do you have the team on your side or not and if you say the right thing then you got the team on your side Did you feel the team was on his side?

15:39No it was it was divided some people were Camp Lewis and some people were my side which was important and helpful, of course. But it remains tough when you're up against the people who are at Camp Lewis. One of the things that I felt most difficult about was Paddy. Because Paddy won... Paddy Lowe was our team principal, I think it was called at the time. He won the championship with Lewis at McLaren. So they had an existing, very deep relationship. I generally felt that Paddy would, if in doubt, he would be on Lewis's side. And that was one of the... For me personally, subjectively maybe you don't know if it's true or not but subjectively it felt like one of the most difficult things for me to deal with because Paddy was then most of the time the one discussing the first person to discuss any incidents with us was him before any other senior people like Toto or Nicky got involved we would do a lot of the incidents just with him first and that generally was difficult for me it felt difficult by the way I'm fascinated what Nicky Lauda was like in a situation like this Nicky Lauda said said, right, tomorrow morning, Monday, I want both of you at my house in Ibiza.

16:51We are going to make a discussion around this. He was the mediator. He did a great job with mediating. Did you go to Ibiza? Because what he did as a mediator was, he pushed us each to take ownership, at least a little bit, of what happened. So to get to a point where you say, okay, yes, that I actually could have done better. Yes, I understand. that was part of what caused our crash whereas going into the conversation with Nicky it's 100 % the other guy's fault and then at the end of the conversation he's okay yes I understand that part maybe yes I could have done better and that is my fault actually and then Louis the same and so that who went first that's the sorry

17:33Jake Humphrey: who conceded first no you don't go together it's one by one okay so he goes into the house first comes out I go into the house first and you're both outside not talking to each other it's like naughty school kids and then most of the time it would be though not putting us together but just getting us to a point where we are calmed because when we accept that we actually had part of the blame um and then sometimes it's also then sitting us together and and um getting to a point where you kind of make a little bit of progress to just take a bit of the tension out you know the air out of the many people are still intrigued by the relationship with you and luis have you spoken since reconciled had this kind of discussion between we're neutral now the craziest thing was that we were neighbors in the same building you know so um i moved out since i moved out but but we were neighbors so we saw each other quite a lot quite a bit so we're just neutral have you ever spoken about 2016 uh no um we took a moment uh a very personal moment when i made my decision so we had that um but i think we also have very different lives and interest so there's no we wouldn't be best friends anyways the different lives that we have and so so it's just neutral and it's fine it's okay bad things happen so you can't really you can't fix that so easily either and then who's gonna say sorry first yeah I don't know yeah so so that's it so it's neutral and I I'm amazed that that he's still driving it's crazy I'm out since 10 years and it's not like we're young at the time like yeah and he's still going still going and it's incredible how he has managed to build his life with such stability as well to be able to have such longevity in a career no scandals performing at such a high level because it's not only you don't it's not only about being a great race car driver you know you need to build a life around that um and not have scandals not have uh look at there's so many there's infinite examples and lose an incredible job to to build a solid life to be able to perform at such a high level for such a long time and now taking on another huge challenge now at Ferrari and a huge struggle.

19:42It's getting better now because with his new regs he's performing much better than he was last year but still he's up against Charles Leclerc who's like at the peak of his ability and he's one of the greatest drivers of this generation. So it's going to be difficult but it's great to see him taking on the challenge. Would you like to see him become an eight-time world champion? Yeah, of course. I would. And he would deserve it. I deserve it and it would be great to see him keep progressing as he has into this year. And I think he'll win a race at least this year. But to get a championship, I think the car is not good enough and his level is not quite there yet.

20:20Hopefully he can still improve through the season. It would be inspiring for all us men in our 40s to see a world champion. How old is he? He's been 41. 41, wow, amazing. And what was hardest for you? was it season one where you first come into F1 as the son of a Formula One world champion? Was it when you get put into a Mercedes as a German driver alongside the great Michael Schumacher? Was it when you finally had the opportunity to win the world title up against Lewis Hamilton in 2016 and that got really, really pretty contentious? Or was it all as hard? No, no. So the hardest is very easy. It's season one.

21:00When you come in as a 20-year-old And as I said before, I'm not the super confident person. So I come in more worried. Am I good enough to be in this sport with the gladiators? You know, on the grid next to Michael Schumacher. My God, like felt completely like a fish out of water, like completely out of place. Like, what am I doing here? This guy's like the greatest, you know, and I'm on the grid next to him. Doesn't add up. So that is... And then I also got into a situation where I had a really bad car. So I had a team full of, feeling-wise, army generals who had no idea what empathy meant. So it was just like, so the team being full of army generals, the car being a disaster and breaking down all the time, plus me, personality-wise, being on the younger side, less confident side than some others maybe.

21:51And so it's a really difficult situation to get into because you also know, as a young driver, look at Kimi Antonelli last year, you only really have one shot. If you fail in the first year and you get kicked out it's 95 % that your career in F1 is done. And that's what Kimi Antonelli was going through last year. He was really so close to being 50-50 whether the team retains him or kicks him out. It was literally, I mean it was very close. Without knowing it, just looking from the outside it was really touch and go because it was just so hard to see is he really going to be able to turn this around and actually perform in a good enough way to be worthy of staying in F1 and with Mercedes.

22:34Because at times in the season, it was so bad what he was doing. Mistakes and being slow and this and that. It was really struggles. And so as a young driver, you have that, that you know that your chance is now and that's maybe it. So when I was then with Williams and car was breaking down and I was crashing, making mistakes and last and whatever. That's a tough situation to be in. And so there was that. And let me give you an example of the army general. So two examples. One is Patrick Head. So it was Melbourne qualifying. And Q1, I was 16th. So just about, or 15th, just made the cut, but almost last.

23:17He comes to the car. From the side, pulls my visor open and says to me, and he's shouting, an army general like, because it's quite loud. So it's a really powerful shout. If you keep driving like that, you're going to put us out of business. What? I'm like a kid just starting. Hold on. Was it Melbourne? Not the first. Yeah. So this was 2007. First race of 2007. So it's not quite the right fit, but more or less it fits the story. So 2007, the first race of my second year. Yeah. If you keep driving like that, you're going to put us out of business. Shouting. into my eyes I'm studying the data like I'm in my most high focused moment of studying the data to try and make progress he interrupts me comes to the car and this guy is the legend he was my dad's boss so they won the world championship with my dad 24 years before that this guy is a legend and he says in the middle of qualifying that's not a lot that's not very empathetic but to think that he thought that was the most helpful thing that he could do in that situation Well, I was sixth right after that.

24:25So maybe it was horrible, but maybe he was right. I don't know. But it didn't seem like the right thing to do. Anyways, and then the other story. This was year one then, Hockenheim, maybe ninth race of the season. I, after the start, messed up the start. I was last and running last in turn 10 of the first lap. I spun out on my own and crashed. So that's pretty bad. And so then at six o 'clock in the evening, I'm in my car on my way home, get a phone call from Sam Michael, who is the deputy boss. And he says to me, Nico, was it Frank Williams? I think it was Sam Michael. Sam Michael, you were useless to us this weekend.

25:05So he called me to tell me that you were useless to us this weekend. That's the words. Oh shit, come on guys. Instead of like, hey what can we do to you know, don't worry, first year these things happen and hey let's important just to learn from every mistake and and make and grow you know it's through mistakes that we grow so you gotta it's normal you gotta get through this and and look you've done this and this so well so let's just build on that and you were useless to us this week that's like that's hard so that's why i'm saying there's a team full of army generals we can smile in some ways about that now no i still can't smile about that okay you can no i can smile about anything that happened in my career because the ending was so beautiful I can smile about anything whatever was thrown at me I don't care in that moment horrible I'm like destroyed and he calls me on purpose to tell me this that's mad isn't it like you're useless because because a Patrick Head they had their greatest success with drivers like my dad or drivers like Alan Jones who my dad had a fire in his race car in Brazil jumped out of the car and Patrick Head runs towards him and screams at him, get the hell back into that car.

26:23And my dad, my mustache is on fire. And they have a shouting match like that. And then my dad gets back in the car and finishes second. So that's how they kind of grew up in the sport with these macho drivers. Alan Jones was the same. You had to shout at him and probably threaten to punch him to get him fired up and actually perform well. So I think that's how they got into the sport and that was just the way they were. So when you look back to joining Williams and being led by army generals... I hope they listen to this. Hopefully they do. Actually, Michael apologized. He wrote me a WhatsApp three years ago.

27:03He's been reflecting. He said, I'm so sorry. I think I was a bit tough on you. But I think also that was the team led by Frank Williams and he came as well from that era. Oh, it's the same. That was the culture. Oh, same thing. Army general culture. Empathy did not exist. Did empathy exist from Michael Schumacher when you raced alongside him? Because I think that's... No, he's the opposite also. He's a mental warrior, that guy. I mean, he lives and breathes destroying his teammate mentally. But not in a mean way. In a casual, using the gray areas, daily force. He wakes up, it's just natural to him.

27:45It's not like he doesn't have to push himself to destroy his teammate naturally, immensely. It's his way of life. It's his competitive, super casual. And all day long. So whether it's we arrive at the track and there's only one parking, there's 20 parking spots at the track. Everybody else has to park a kilometer away. So one for each driver. Now there's the team bosses also. And Michael would park his car just slightly across into my parking spot. So two wheels just across the white line in a way that I cannot fit anymore. Like literally I would scratch the cars if I would try. So it stresses me out, obviously, because I'm late for the meeting.

28:25You always arrive one minute to go, engineering meeting. It's the most horrible thing to come a minute late when everybody, even the factory, 50 people at the factory, everybody's online and it's, sorry, we're just waiting on Nico to arrive. Horrible. so he parks the car across so I'm stuck because I cannot leave it in the middle of the road and it's just all day long, Monaco qualifying he locks himself in the only toilet that we had in the garage there's only one and the last thing you do as a driver is you always go to the bathroom before getting in the car and he locks himself in looking at his watch the time is ticking and he knows that the most horrible thing is jumping in a race car when you're stressed because you need to adjust your seatbelts and there's these crutch straps at the bottom that are high risk.

29:13You need to take your time to position them very carefully and nicely because the worst that can happen is if something shifts out of place whilst you're out on the racetrack. Yeah. There's nothing you can do about it. Every driver has experienced this. It's so painful and because when you're braking, you slide down into the crutch and if something's not right in position, you have an hour to go and you're out on the racetrack and you know you can't do anything about it, that's horrible. So you don't want to jump in the car stressed. And he's in the bathroom, lock the door, I'm knocking on the door and I don't know who's in there because there's no one talking.

29:47Come out, come out, come out, please, I need to go. And he just, he knows, okay, three minutes to go, two minutes to go. And by then I had to find a bucket in the back of the garage to pee. So I'm there where the mechanics are working around me and I'm peeing in a bucket, shaking, you know, stressed. And this is like all day long. That's like, he loved it. Would you ever go to Michael and say, stop with the games, come on? Today, yes. But at the time I was too young. But now knowing everything, I would stand right in front of him. I would look him in the eye. I would say, Michael, stop these rubbish games.

30:22Like this is useless, you know, like. And it's not right, you know, to cause me a stress just before I get in the car. Stop, you know. I would now today I would do that because it's showing vulnerability in the moment, but actually it's a great strength. And I bet you no one ever did that. So he sees that it's causing me suffering, but actually showing vulnerability is a superpower. So it feels scary in the moment, but it has such a big impact. And so today I would be super brave and I would do it. But remember, this guy is like God, huh? Like he walked into a room and the engineers stopped working whenever he walked into a room.

31:03Everybody, the mouths went open. Michael Schumacher. It's like, it's literally, this guy's gone. I mean, the greatest race car driver we've ever seen. Put his arm around you and... No, no, no, no. He, in three years of being teammates, he did not mention my name once in three years of sitting across the table in engineering meetings. I did not exist. What would he call you? No, I did not exist. Like it was not, I did not exist because mentioning my name would be showing respect. But not me not existing was pushing me, the little guy there, we don't even know his name, you know. That was his mental worship.

31:46He never once asked like, what did Nico do there? Or not once, like not a single time.

31:54Jake Humphrey: So what did you do to protect yourself? So that was the learning, which I just also covered, from my work with my psychologist, where he said, when you feel that someone's not treating you right or something, the best is, with respect, but firmly, tell the person, this is causing me great discomfort, I don't think it's fair, please treat me appropriately. And one of the examples was now the team boss of Williams, James Valls, who was our genius strategist. And he too was consumed by this genius sitting or this God sitting in the room with us at the beginning of Michael joining Mercedes. So one of the first races, we were small, intimate circle, you know, just pre-race, high pressure moment discussing the strategy, which James Valls is responsible for.

32:54So for him, it's like very intense moment. And he faces the God, which is Michael Schumacher to explain the strategy to Michael. And then comes my strategy. And 90 % of the time when he spoke about my strategy, he was speaking about my strategy to Michael. Like I was not there. Like I was like hot air in the room. I was not there. So he's discussing my or explaining my strategy. also focusing most of the time on Michael. But he didn't even realize it's just because you have God in the room. And so you're like, you're just consumed by that. And it was really hurtful for me though because plus I was the guy getting more points for the team.

33:35I was in front of the championship. I was in front of the grid as well. This is the interesting point. I beat Michael most of the time, which was very important to my career. Yes, he wasn't at the peak of his powers anymore because he had retired and come back. Nevertheless, it was important for me to stay ahead. Anyway, so then after that, I went to James Valls and I said, James, please, I deserve that you give me at least 50 % of your attention in such strategy meetings, especially then when you're discussing my strategy also. I'm not sure if I was brave enough to say that that hurt me. Probably not, I don't know.

34:10But I did say, you know, or I must have said it didn't feel nice to me that, you know, you're just... and then James, very kindly, did pay attention next time and did address me appropriately, you know, so that was a very nice example, an important example of progress in that sense. Can I ask you about that period where you saw Michael doing things that were uncharacteristic? There was that moment where he braked and he hit someone in Barcelona, he got hit. Yeah, I know exactly what that was. So his peak was probably pretty similar still to his greatest, just that he struggled. You know, a race driver's skill is the speed of adapting.

34:51We are super fast to adapt to new situations, new grip levels, because every lap is different in our world. The fuel is coming down, the grip is coming up. Every lap is different. And you have to have an incredible ability to be present and adapt from corner to corner, lap to lap all the time. It's never the same. And that was the area where Michael, that was the only area where you could see a little bit that he was not at his best anymore. His ability to adapt to some things. And the best example was this DRS. He had never in his career had DRS, where you drop the rear wing and you suddenly go, it's like a turbo boost on the straights.

35:31You suddenly go 15 kilometers per hour quicker, which means that you get to that next corner in a way that you've never usually get there because you're suddenly 15 kilometers quicker in a race, only when you're overtaking someone. so he's doing the race getting to that corner always the same and then suddenly he comes up to Bruno Senna this is in Barcelona and hits the DRS and so his brain failed to remind him that this is a new situation he's going to get to the same braking zone that he's come to the last 20 laps with 15 kilometers more speed so you have to brake in a much earlier spot because if you brake in the same spot you're off and he brakes in the same spot so he took out Bruno Senna in front of him and had a massive crash because that was the only little thing that he was worse at, I think, than in his peak career.

36:19And did you see that he was accepting that or that he maybe… He was generally someone… I mean, he's very self-confident. And also, he's built so strongly on just passion for the sport. He just loved racing and loved the sport. So I'm sure it caused him mental struggles to be behind me and to be crashing. But I think he dealt with them very strongly and in general still was enjoying the moment and the time largely and much more than most others would be able to in that situation because the media was bashing him pretty hard because the media was expecting he's going to come to Mercedes and win the world championship.

37:04And yet he came to Mercedes, was driving in 12th place, crashing and getting beaten by his no-name teammates. so well I was obviously working at that time you bashed him the most I remember the headlines you were creating I mean it was just disrespectful it was horrible it was a disgrace I'll tell you what was a challenge for the media was that he at no time said yeah I think I need to I think I'm struggling in areas every time something happened he would go well it wasn't my fault and I think that was part that's the weakness I told you before the confident the very most confident drivers like a Verstappen will question themselves less than someone like Lando Norris or myself because they always think it's not my fault, I'm perfect, I'm exaggerating but I'm perfect, it's the other guy it must be the other guy's fault this is exaggerating and whilst we are like oh damn, I must not be good enough, it must be me I need to improve, where can I improve?

37:59So it's like one of our superpowers as being more sensitive is pushing more and improving ourselves always

38:05Jake Humphrey: As somebody that is empathetic and somebody that is willing to look at what you could do better. But empathetic is when you're empathetic is, you can be empathetic towards yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can still be kind towards yourself and feel emotions. That's also empathy towards yourself? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. But I'm interested in how did you learn to trust people where you could share your fallibilities or where you could improve? Because it sounds like you're working in a world where people don't necessarily respect that. No, sure. you work with a brain doctor, you're a loser.

38:40Jake Humphrey: Yeah. That's the credo in F1, or at least at my time. So you couldn't tell, I couldn't tell anybody. Did you not tell anyone that you were working with a psychologist? No. I probably told my, I mean, my wife knew because she saw how much time I was spending there. She didn't come to check if it was maybe a girl instead of a psychologist. Are you having an affair or are you seeing a psychologist? I spent a lot of time. I spent a lot of time in that house. but we have a lovely relationship, so there's none of that. What was the scariest moment, do you think? The very scariest moment in my whole business life, which includes racing, would be the middle of the race in Abu Dhabi when I was 2016, where I was fighting for the championship in that race.

39:36and Lewis had been backing me up and that resulted in me dropping behind Verstappen who didn't pit stop yet. So I was behind him and he was driving a fantastic race as he does so often. And so I was behind him, stuck. And the other guys were catching up from behind and Lewis was disappearing. And then my engineer says to me on the radio, this is Tony Ross, Nico, you now have to pass Verstappen otherwise you risk losing the world championship it was like 20 years in the making my childhood dream and it was there for me to take it and now these totally unexpected extreme circumstances of me dropping behind Verstappen which normally was never going to happen because we were so much faster than them than being stuck there and at the time he was still completely crazy he's changed a lot now he's become much more measured much more driving for the championship.

40:35At the time, Verstappen had nothing to lose. He was, I don't know, 18 or 19 years old. And one knew that it was a 50-50 % chance. If you try and battle with him, it's 50 % crash, you're out. Or 25 % you get passed, or 25 % you don't get passed. So the odds were not really in my favor. And the engineer, Tony, says to me, you have to pass now within the next two laps. My goodness, that is like horrible. and so I went for this massive lunge and then I'll be forever grateful for Stappen and left some space and we didn't collide but he did hold on and he was still in front of me by the time we got to the next corner so I had to go for a second move and by the time I got past my foot so I was so scared of losing my dream and of messing up and crashing that my foot started shaking but so violently that it wasn't like a little vibration it was a bouncing which I'll never have again in my life the accelerator foot because the accelerator you're being precise with it so when you try and be precise with your hands you also see a shake coming so I'm trying to be precise but it was shaking so violently I'll never again have that in my whole life no way then I couldn't accelerate properly anymore because the foot was bouncing and so then it obviously is a mental spiral because then your head says, okay, my foot is bouncing so much that I can't drive anymore.

42:03So then the foot just bounces double as much. So, and just luckily, I got through this sequence of corners with a bouncing foot, Verstappen still staying behind me somehow. And then I got to the straight, the next part was a straight. And so I could push the whole leg through. So normally you accelerate with your foot. And here I used my whole leg to push it through into the throttle pedal. And somehow it then did full throttle. Like a reset moment. Driving down the straight like that. And that was enough that by the time I got to the next corner, my foot slightly calmed again, which then your head says, okay, maybe it's not as bad as it looked.

42:44And so I just managed to somehow get my foot into a state where I could drive the car again. So that was my worst ever.

42:51Jake Humphrey: What would you take us to that moment when you get that call over the radio from Tony that says, you have to do this? And what was going through your head at that moment? I'm going to lose this again like I always did in my career. So that was the... That was my mind telling me that. Can it be possible that I lose this? Because most of the time against Lewis, I always finished second in F1 in the three years before that. I finished one spot behind him or whatever. And then second in the championship. and against him it was the same in go-karting I finished second he finished first so my mind was telling me no this is not possible I'm going to lose this again and that's horrible I had a psychologist I was working with and all the work I did but it's hard to completely transform your instinctive thoughts and in that moment in the heat of the moment my brain was telling me no way I'm losing this again and that's horrible so you were aware that these automatic negative thoughts were kicking in, what did you do to try and override it?

43:53Jake Humphrey: Or did you just surrender to it? So I worked because I'm someone, in today's world, it's a bit like Lando Norris. Lando Norris, it's always glass half empty. When he does pole position with an amazing lap, he will talk about not how great the lap was, but about the one corner where he could have done better. Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, just that one corner, I could have done better. you're in pole position like talk about how amazing you just did no that one corner I felt that I messed that one up and I could have done better and because Landon Norris is someone he has a lot of self-doubt and so he's not the super confident Verstappen type and I am like that as well and there's benefits there's pros and cons to being like that But on the one hand, it makes the struggle a bit more real because you have more of a mental battle going on there.

44:52I'm not good enough. I'm going to lose or whatever. But the strength is that you question yourself a lot more because you're not arrogant. You think, how can I do better? I need to do better. So you question yourself a lot more. And you're generally also very sensitive to all little details. So there's a pro and con to being this kind of character.

45:15Jake Humphrey: So where did that come from? because I'm quite taken when you were describing your dad when he was managing drivers, you said you looked at these guys like gladiators, superhumans. So it sounds to me like you identified them as being different than you and yet you entered that world. So where did that conditioning come from to believe that you weren't quite good enough or to believe that? There's a lot of genetic in that, I think, because it's as long as I can remember that I'm a little bit that kind of profile of person. in school, yeah? Like the most shy person the world has ever seen in my point of view, I was, yeah?

45:53I couldn't even speak to girls. Like it was impossible. Or speak out in front of class. My whole body was shaking, you know? It was like really like great, less than average self-confidence, certainly. And I think another thing that probably adds to it is that my father is very different to me. he is many of the older people listening to this will remember him you know he's like macho you know cigarette in the race car flicking it out putting the visor down pedal to the metal and real like you know a man's man so he's very different to me I'm more like my I'm more like my mom in that sense and like for me that was kind of the stereotype of how a race driver had to be when I was growing up.

46:48That's all I knew how a race driver had to be. And then also me realizing that I'm so different probably added to this, yeah, what we're talking about. So I wonder whether, now that you can... So I wanted to be, like I told my dad recently, you know, I always wanted to be more like you. And did you ever try to be? Well, you can't, it's genetic. yeah but did you try you know what the funniest answer that he gave me it was like one of our really personal conversations where we sat down for an hour and really went deep and just spoke openly which you don't you rarely do but it's like such a powerful thing to do with your dearest friends or family to take the time sit down one hour and be brave because it's scary be brave to open up and to discuss deeply things that are worrying us or things that we're struggling with or whatever in our relationship.

47:46So hard to do. So I did that with my dad just as a nice thing. What was the catalyst to do that? I think just me being brave and wanting to make sure that I get that covered with my father and not miss out on having such a deep conversation. And it was right after I retired just to go through it all again. So I said to him, I wish I was more like you. And my dad's answer was, well, I always wished I was more like you. Because he's very impulsive, which creates a lot of problems because he doesn't take the time to think about it. He's like, boom, react. Feel angry, react. And I'm super different.

48:25I feel, take time, think, rational, act.

48:30Jake Humphrey: And how did you feel when you heard that? I wish I was more like you. And then we came to the conclusion that, okay, yeah, I mean, middle ground would probably be the ideal place to be in, which for me was an eye-opener. I was like, wow, okay, so he wants to be more like me. But how did that make you feel? You've obviously spent a life aspiring to be in. It was a good moment for me as well to realize that he too wanted to be, it's not just me, and he too wants to be. Because each of us has our struggles in our different ways, and probably middle ground would be the best way to be as a personality.

49:07Jake Humphrey: Have you had that conversation with your mum as well? With my mum, it's generally just more easy. She's just a happy-go-lucky person. So I do sometimes, but she... So yeah, we do a little bit, yeah, sometimes, but not in a profound way like that, but from time to time, yeah. In a moment, we're going to talk to Nico about why he worked with not just a psychologist, but also a philosopher during his Formula One career. Lately, I've been thinking more about how AI can actually help us all go deeper on the challenges in our life rather than just using it for quick fixes. And that's why I've started using Claude in my work and I've also recommended it to so many people.

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52:41Jake Humphrey: Because you've used a few quite strong words there, like it destroyed me, and some of those examples as an empathetic person sound pretty horrendous. But what did you learn about yourself? Because it didn't destroy you. Oh, yeah, difficult one. I mean, I learned that I'm training my body five hours a day and I'm not training my mind. I'm training my mind zero hours a day. I'm feeling that there's room for a lot of progress. So why am I not training my mind? So that's what pushed me to look for a psychologist and a sports mental coach, mental coach, psychologist, and even philosophy, philosophist.

53:21Is it a philosopher? So I covered the whole thing. And I went all in on this. And this was one of the greatest discoveries of my life. Like, my goodness, this is huge.

53:31Jake Humphrey: Go on, tell us more. So I was very lucky. I found this quite elder man who used to coach the French national team for skiing. And he lived here in the area. He lives right next door. Found him through good fortune. And he accepted me and then we went through the motions. And I worked two hours every two days with him. So two hours every two days. It's harder than any physical training was to be there, be present, be focused mentally onto everything we're discussing, practicing meditation, practicing visualization, repetitions, breathing, studying philosophy. Why am I scared? Why am I jealous? Why are we humans?

54:19All of our basic needs. So I learned that to be happy and content, we need progress. We need to grow as humans. You need to learn something. You need to push yourself. That's our way to being happy and content. You need to do something significant where you get appreciation from others also around you. So you need to be doing something significant. And so really understanding all of that, it just helps so much. Then also understanding that you can't necessarily switch off these instinctive emotions. That's really hard. That's like Dalai Lama level. So you'll always feel fear. You'll always fear.

54:58But what you can really powerfully do is adapt your reactions to it. If you don't, like my father, feel fear, boom, react, boom, knock him out or whatever. No, that's not what my dad did, but kind of. but actually take a moment think about what you're feeling and react much more appropriately that will have a snowball effect you can adapt your your reactions to things by by learning by understanding that's huge for life so can you tell us an example there where you took

55:26Jake Humphrey: that learning of just practicing a pause and it actually manifested itself in your career In racing, where I took a step back and thought about it before reacting impulsively, do you know what the big problem is? That most of the difficult things happen on track and you come out the car and you do not have that moment to think about things because they, you guys, shoved a microphone in my face right after I got out of the car. I didn't have time to speak to anybody that I trusted about anything. microphone straight in my face and I cannot say to you no comment. I need to think about it. You can't say that.

56:08You need to engage. And that made it very hard. And that's where Lewis was so amazingly good in those instinctive, immediate, reactive answers. He was so spot on every time. And I was lost. I was always saying the wrong thing. Because you can, the truth, you can talk about it like that or like that. You can talk about it Lando did a great lap. He can say I did the best lap of my life or I messed up turn 10. Both is the same truth. Very different ways of talking about it. And Lewis was just amazing at when you get that microphone in your face saying exactly the right thing. And I was really bad at that.

56:47I was not good. So I made a lot of mistakes and that caused difficulty. So I didn't have too much of the opportunity to really take a moment when things happened in the racetrack, which was one of my... That was a weakness of mine.

56:59Jake Humphrey: In 400 interviews, we've met lots of incredible performers like yourself that have spoken about the mental game and using psychologists and some of the techniques that you've just described. I don't think we've ever heard anyone talk about using a philosopher though. Would you describe a little bit about what that entailed and the benefits of it? It's about understanding us humans and understanding what are our needs, why are we scared? Why are we jealous? Why do we need recognition from others? So it's really about understanding and then specifically myself as a personality. Because so much of our struggles are a lack of understanding.

57:46So much of our struggles in relationships are we do not understand the other person. What is his needs? What is his goals? And if you don't understand, And it's very difficult then to find an agreement or come to middle ground. And it's the same with myself. It really is so powerful to understand myself better. And that's where philosophy just comes in a lot to really understand us as humans. How are we made? What are our needs and thoughts and all that? because there's geniuses in the past who have already gone through anything that we ever will experience. There's geniuses in the past who've already had that.

58:36And they have written it down in a very profound, thoughtful way, in a way that allows us to understand. So it's all there, you know? And there's nothing new that we will experience that a genius in the past hasn't already. All these great thought leaders of the past, you know? So it's all there. So it's all there for us to just read through it and understand and it's super insightful.

58:56Jake Humphrey: And was there any one philosopher that resonated with you? It was a mix because my philosopher was actually the guy I was with and he was a philosopher himself. There's these German guys like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche and all these people and he or even Freud and all these guys. So he kind of consolidated thoughts from all of these and he also liked the Greeks a lot. So he brought everything together in his own way. He created his own mixture and he was teaching me essentially. And is there a line or like a particular mantra from that that still resonates with you today? Oh man, now I need to think of that, a line or mantra.

59:38I mean, something for me today is, but it's not really philosophy, it's more psychology now again. It's like, I love to, I'm now super brave. whenever there's a situation where I feel like this is going to be difficult mentally I could not care less because I know that it's so valuable for my life to just go right into it whatever it is going up to a person I look up to in a conference and there's thousands of people who want to speak to him and who are around And I... I politely push my way through and just stand right in front and say, hey, do you have 10 seconds for me or whatever? You know, I would never have been able to do that 30 years ago, ever, ever, ever.

1:00:24And it's still then scary in that moment because you have a fear of being rejected. And I just had that. Two weeks ago, a conference, the person looked at my, you know, you all have your badges. Looked at my badge. It said Nico Rosberg, Rosberg Ventures. So the person that was really important to me to speak to this person, stared at my badge. looked up at me and said, sorry, I have to go. Oh no. Full on, like the biggest rejection. But I could not care less. Yeah. Like, could not care less. So I'm just super brave now because I know how valuable it is to be brave and push into this discomfort and just keep going and who cares.

1:01:00And so that's a big learning and change that's happened in my life as a result of all these insights and as a result of my support and understanding, understanding that that's so important to do that. And that's what I'm trying to teach my kids. I'm trying to teach my kids because they're scared of every new situation they're scared of going to a new ballet class they're scared of taking on guitar lessons they're scared of performing with a band even though they would love to do that and I know they love to do that it's their dream to perform in a band and they're scared to do day one so I'm always trying to repeat to them how important it is to be brave because it's actually what you want to do and if you do it on the 10th day it's going to be easy it's just the first day that's hard second day gets easier, third day easier repetition makes anything easier and I'm trying to teach that to them and also show them in a way that I do it, although there's not many great examples now anymore, oh no, I use my F1 examples actually so I show them the videos and I talk them through it and how tough it was and how brave I was and then I got better and better and easier and easier and at the end I won so I do use those examples and I try to try to teach them that, the importance of being brave, pushing yourself into discomfort, you know, because that's where you grow, it's where you find joy, you become proud of yourself, super important.

1:02:22Jake Humphrey: But tell us about how you learned to trust people, to be able to share, because you have to unburden yourself in such a stressful world. I learned to trust, I didn't share, I didn't share with anybody, I shared with my wife and the coach, and that was kind of it, no? But I mean, when you're working for Williams, when you're going into the team, how did you learn to be able to talk about getting better? How did you learn to talk about your failures in a race without worrying it was going to expose you? But I only talked about that to my coach, not to Williams. So you never spoke within the team about the challenges you had or your doubts and fears?

1:03:03Jake Humphrey: See, that must have felt lonely though. Yeah, that is not nice. You know, that's why also it's so important for us to be brave and actually try to be as authentic as possible and talk about those difficulties, learning struggles. Yeah, because it helps us. It helps so much, I think. But I failed to do that at the time because I wasn't brave enough and I didn't understand. Was it lonely? Of course, then yeah. When the gladiators are circling around you, no, not the gladiators, the army generals. The army generals are circling around you and you're alone in the middle. that's not easy yeah that's tough when it's just me alone because you know I was and the army generals three of them it was three of them Patrick Frank Frank and Sam Michael and Sam because I was at an event recently and Lando Norris was there yeah and we had a two minute chat I said how's life and he went lonely that's typical yeah because he just of course he has amazing moments also in his life but he will focus on the turn 10 where he messed up or the last week where he had one lonely day or whatever but he says that he has a lot of mental health is a big thing for Lando because he generally has some challenges there Did it ever affect your mental health do you think?

1:04:28So that's funny because all the struggles it does somehow looking back in general which is interesting it still stays somehow quite superficial and doesn't have a profound traumatic because like now i look back and i'm not traumatized from all the struggles which were i mean the foot shaking with first that's like deeply that's a deep fear and struggle at that moment like to get your body to do that well you got to be pretty scared you got to be pretty deeply scared now looking back didn't traumatize me. So somehow, strangely enough, it seems that all that stayed quite superficial, which is good.

1:05:11Are you grateful for the fact that... But I also won at the end, which if I wouldn't have won, I would be sitting here probably very, very different because then I would consider myself the forever loser. And that probably would have a more profound traumatic impact on my mental well-being for the rest of my life, I'm pretty sure. Really? Yeah. Because, you know, your identity becomes what you're doing. Your identity is this amazing host for the various topics you're taking on and the show and everything. And your identity is being one of the greatest book authors in the world on human performance and micro habit experts and all that.

1:05:52And you become that person. And if you suddenly write four books and each of them fail completely and literally only 50 people buy them, you will start to think about yourself as a loser. Because even though it's just something you do, but because everybody else is judging you by that and it has a strong impact on your thinking. Do you agree with that?

1:06:18Jake Humphrey: Well, yeah. But I'm intrigued in terms of that because I'm thinking that as a guy that overcame so many of these obstacles to even be in this paddock when you said that you're looking at these supermen, these gods around you, and you're then finding yourself beating them. You've already won. So I'm intrigued as to why that fixation of becoming a world champion suddenly changed the idea that you weren't a loser. Because you obviously weren't a loser even if you hadn't won the title, if that makes sense. Yeah, but it's always glass half empty, which I am as a personality. so even if I win the Monaco Grand Prix three times in a row but I still am behind Lewis once again in the championship then I'll pick that out it's like when I have a hundred people cheering for me on the grandstand two people booing ferociously I will only notice the two people booing and focus on that but I think that's your superpower I think that's the reason why but it's also a superpower as I mentioned correct because it But then you told that lovely story when you came here this morning that you brought your kids to school, you're walking on the beach, and you had that appreciation and that gratitude for where you were.

1:07:36Yeah, so gratitude is one of the most powerful things you can do for happiness in life. It's being grateful, being present and grateful. And it's actually something I'm so bad at doing. So this was surprising that I mentioned this now because the situation we're in here in Monaco, I do then take time to realize and appreciate and that's really important. But did you do that when you were racist? No, no, no, not enough. That's something that I failed. I would now going back, I would do that a lot more. Although I did cover that. You know what? I even was grateful for fear. So in my meditation, so I was doing that.

1:08:14In my meditation from my psychologist, I learned the importance that to keep repeating, to be grateful even for fear and failure. So to be grateful for failure, because failure is your greatest opportunity to grow as a human being and to get faster and better. It's in failure. If you don't fail, you will not get faster. You will not get better. You will not become a greater race car driver if you don't fail. It's in mistakes where you make the most progress. And so I even spent a lot of time repeating to myself, being grateful for mistakes or possible mistakes to come. And that helps to reduce also the fear around them and the suffering from them.

1:09:08So I remember losing the second world championship to Louis 2015. And then I was sitting in my hotel room, kind of locked myself in my hotel room. horrible suffering, losing again, you know, and I lost it by making a mistake. So I was leading the race. I made a mistake. Which race? Austin. And that handed him on a silver platter the world championship. I don't remember. I made a mistake, went off the track on my own. And I said in the media, it was a gust of wind, which it was actually, but you just cannot say that. No one believes you. So again, my spontaneous answer was just rubbish. Should not say that.

1:09:42Just say, made a mistake and then move on. anyways and so sitting in the hotel room again repeating to myself this is your chance it's horrible it feels horrible but this is your chance to grow even more and to use this failure as your driving force as your motivation to be even more dedicated and i won seven races in a row after that one of the greatest winning streaks in the history of formula one against lewis and so seven races in a row and that launched that went into my world championship season where i won the first four races so the last three first four and that was the launch pad to my world championship year so from that moment seven races in a row because i was so damn crazy motivated in the details like never before in my life i really want to talk then about the 2016 season the greatest but maybe also So the toughest season of your career?

1:10:40With the first. So first and last. First and last. So you talked about you became crazy. And not even the beginning of the last. It's the moment where you become the favorite to win the world championship. That's where it becomes tough. Okay, take us to that moment. When was the moment that you became the favorite and what was the impact on you? So the moment I became the favorite was after Su... There was Malaysia where I had quite a big points gap and then there was, but it was still four races, five races to go. And so then came Suzuka and it was only like 20 something points at that point, which is not much when it's five races to go.

1:11:18And then came Suzuka and I don't know how I was even able to perform under that fear because qualifying lap, my hands are shaking. Why? Because I'm scared of messing up and losing my dream. Because you know it's now so close. You're now the favorite. Yeah, because I'm at 20 points ahead in the championship and there's only five races to go. And so it's mine to lose kind of already at that point. So it's so scary, my goodness. Because if I don't make a mistake, I'm world champion. So you're just so scared to mess up and make a mistake. It must have been exhausting. And let's remember, it's hard to drive these race cars on the limit and do well.

1:11:55It's super hard to be on the edge with these race cars and not make a mistake. As you can see on television, all these guys are making mistakes all the time. It's just super hard. and qualifying Suzuka last and it's the last lap you're only one lap that decides it it's one lap and it's so hard to do a perfect lap it's incredibly hard Suzuka high speed corners you know to nail that it's a super crazy hard hardest thing I'll probably do in my life I think in business wise yeah is to drive this race car well and and then hands shaking and thoughts messing with your mind don't mess up don't mess up i'm gonna mess up i'm gonna mess up during the during the qualifying lab yeah where you have to be 100 focused so the mind is going in and out from being super intensely focused to try to drift you out take you out of that all the time with the fear yeah so it's like a bouncing in and out and i don't know how i mean fortunately i'm gifted with a great natural talent but somehow even in those in that mental state and let's remember i worked so hard mentally.

1:13:03So if I wouldn't have done that, I would have been much worse. So I've done all this preparation so that in the craziest high pressure moments, my mind was 10 % calmer, 10 % more focused, 10 % better performing than if I wouldn't have done all that crazy work for 10 years. Would you have won the world championship? No, no way. Without that? 0%. 0%, 0%, 0%. Because it all came down to the last lap of the last corner. and my mind definitely gave me at least 1 % better performance and it all came down to the last lap. It was one second that decided everything because it was one second between the four cars.

1:13:42We finished Abu Dhabi, one second, four cars. Four cars within one second. And if I would have finished last of the four cars, championship was for Lewis. If I finished in front of, not last of the four cars, championship was mine and it was one second. So tiny lock up and you're already, that's already finished. It's just one little lock up and it's done because you lose half a second. You're then last. I was there on pole position because of five little improvements that I had put together during that season. First one, or actually the first one happened three years ago already in 2014. My helmet, you'll see it's carbon, pure carbon black because I figured out that the paint was 80 grams.

1:14:24so I chopped out the paint because one kilogram of our body weight including helmet over whatever was three hundredths of a second per lap slower crazy huh? so just one kilogram I mean take a kilogram and this car weighs 700 kilos one kilogram resulted in every lap three hundredths of a second slower calculated from the simulation from the computer is that nuts? and it is factually true because we also know that 10 kilograms of fuel is always three-tenths of a second per lap. So we know that. 10 kilograms fuel is three-tenths, which is a lot. One kilogram, three-hundreds. That's two seconds of race time.

1:15:05Very often the difference between winning and losing because Lewis and I were always stacked up in our gearboxes, crossing the finish line most of the time. So it's the difference, winning and losing. One kilogram. So what did I do? Helmet paint. Then I did, what else did I do? Oh, I chopped Swiss holes in my seat in the non-structural areas, which was another tens of grams, whatever. But now I'm already past 100 grams. And then finally, it was also, I was doing, I was like really great cyclists and I stopped cycling because the cycling, the leg muscles are one of the heaviest parts of our body.

1:15:41So I stopped cycling because I spoke to my doctors and they said, you'll probably drop at least 500 grams if you stop cycling. And if you do running and walking instead. So I stopped cycling. And in fact, I was on the scales and I did drop more than 500 grams by the time I got to Suzuka. Because it was during the season that I stopped cycling. So Suzuka, by the time I got to Suzuka, commutatively I had dropped one kilo and I was on pole by 200. Oh man. That was the one kilo. Brilliant. And that's what got me the world championship. So that was also something that I was just very good at, at understanding how to get from A to B, where to put my focus and energy.

1:16:20and even sometimes into the details. When you know that five details make a big improvement, then you got to focus also on those details. You cannot let them, you cannot neglect them because then you're missing out on a big improvement against your competitor. Then I won the race, even though I was shaking and qualifying and I finished that qualifying two hundredths of a second in front of Lewis on pole position, two hundredths, whilst shaking hands. Everybody has the shaking hands, by the way. every driver will because it's adrenaline it's everything but maybe I had a little bit more than most others in that moment so shaking hands and then finished qualifying two hundredths of a second in front which I don't know how even looking back now I don't know how I'm able to perform that well in such a situation so got pole position even there my third pole position in a row on Suzuka track which is also pretty cool because it's one of the greatest tracks in the world and yeah And the next day, great start under the pressure and won the race.

1:17:22And then I was far ahead in the points because I was 30 plus points ahead. Four races to go. All I had to do was finish second, second, second, third. See, I still remember all these details. Because it was big at the time for me personally. So that was now solidly, I am the big favorite. Because I don't have to win any races anymore. Just second, second, second, third is enough. So that's like big favorite. Then the world pressure feeling-wise comes onto the shoulders. because now it's only mine to lose. Don't even have to win a race anymore. It's just mine to lose. All I have to do is bring it home.

1:17:56That's a nutcase intensity on the shoulders. And that's why in sports, you have so many comeback stories. Because when the guy in tennis has won the first two sets, he's the big favorite. It's his to lose. That's when the shakes start. Look at last season in Formula One. Lando Norris, Oscar Piastri, Max was miles behind. That is when the shakes start. The hand in tennis starts to shake. You can't play anymore as well as you were in the first two sets where there was like, you're not favored yet. And that's when the comeback comes. And then the other guy totally relaxed because actually the match is lost.

1:18:35He has nothing to lose anymore. The match is already lost anyways. He's two sets behind. Nothing to lose. So relax. Let's just go for it. And then Max Verstappen drives the second season of his life. I mean, he did a performance that maybe we've never ever seen in the history of the sport with the car that he did against the McLaren's, who definitely had a much better car. Because he had freedom and they had fear. The guy was completely relaxed, enjoying himself, having fun, nothing to lose. He's already won four world championships against Lando, who is now, or Oscar, who's like the favorite, then Lando, who's the favorite, who were up, like their dream maybe winning the first championship, maybe their only championship because the regs are changing.

1:19:15you never know if you have another car that will be up for winning a championship and then of course you get this insane comeback story that's why in sports you have so many comeback stories

1:19:25Jake Humphrey: So what you've described though is the difference between a challenge and a threat state so when you see it as a challenge you've got the adrenaline that works in your favour when it's a threat it starts making the handshake Did you make a deliberate change in your mental strategy then to be able to cope with that changing status from it being a challenge to not being seen. But in the moment, I never managed to help myself to do something for in the moment. When I'm in the race car and I suddenly feel a surge of threat or fear, I didn't manage to. There is techniques, you know, it's called stop thinking, that was the one that I, which is a short movement that you do.

1:20:06It's like a flick of a finger, which brings you back into this state of presence. It's kind of a micro meditation. So there is that technique, but I never managed to implement that. Because essentially where you need to get to in meditation is also these micro meditations throughout your whole day. Great presence to what you're feeling. Whenever you feel difficult feelings coming up or emotions, you can flick and it's like present again. Be aware of your emotions, even appreciate your emotions. and that just helps them, that helps calm them down and you're present again, taking in, you know, and you're not, because when you get these strong emotions, you kind of like go into this rabbit hole and you spiral into these emotions and you block out suddenly everything else in life and you're like, you know, and you need to flick and come back out of there and be aware.

1:20:57But I didn't manage to do that in the race car. I mean, it's when we've now sat and spoken for the last hour, it now almost makes perfect sense at the moment Nico crossed the line in that last race in Abu Dhabi. You can actually fully understand why he went, great, I'm done.

1:21:13Jake Humphrey: Well, I can, but there's a few intriguing bits that you've told us earlier. So you've spoken about your dad was the kind of man that would feel an emotion and then act, whereas you were somebody that had learned to create that buffer between the emotion and the decision. And yet you said when the moment you crossed, you decided, I'm finished. I knew I decided that was the instinctive decision, but I still then took two days to think about it. So tell us about those two days. It's extreme. I mean, for everybody listening, it would be comparable to you tomorrow without planning for it. You walk out the door from your job and you never go back.

1:21:52Jake Humphrey: Yeah. That's hard. Because what's coming next in life? And of course, I have to say that I have the huge advantage that I had financial security, which is very different, I understand. than many people. And that's just because I'm lucky. I chose something where there's a lot of money involved. But so that struggle I did not have because I didn't need to worry, how do I pay my mortgage next month? Which is usually the biggest worry. No, but that does work both ways because you're also walking away from such a huge job, such a privileged position. So there's also that as well. No, sure, but anyways, but still people will, or you guys will be able to relate and everybody can relate that if you, without planning, walk out from your job tomorrow, it's scary because you have no clue what to do with the rest of your life.

1:22:42I mean, what are you going to do? Sit at home and lawn the lawn? No, what is it called? Mow the lawn. Mow the lawn. Mow the lawn. So, that's really scary. Wow. So take us into those two days. It's the non-obvious choice because the obvious choice, I mean, I had a contract for more years, could have earned a hundred million more easily, very quickly, continue to be in the best race car win more races so it's not the obvious choice but for me again the rational side came in there as well I believe that for me I achieved my goal so that's clear that's a tick and I believe that for me it would be critical to leave at the peak of the Mount Everest for the rest of my life I think I really did not want to end up in a situation where my career spirals downward.

1:23:37And I'm going from worse to worse. I get fired from one team. The young guy destroys me in another. And then finally end up getting sent home. Like some other drivers have experienced. Some other amazing drivers. Some of the greatest drivers in the world have experienced in the last years. That is not something that I wanted to ever experience. Because that's horrible. because you go from king to getting fired and sent home and not wanted anymore because you're just not good enough anymore. That's like, wow, no, that's not good for mental health for the rest of your life, I felt. So I definitely want to avoid that.

1:24:12And then, yeah, achieve the dream. I threw more than 100 % into it. So I felt I couldn't do another year like that. That was like, it's so damn extreme. Every minute of breathing, you know, was around being the 110 best that I could be in every sense of the word to win the world championship. And that's not sustainable to live life like that. That was pretty extreme. So I didn't really want to keep going like that either. And of course, it added in also that the environment within the team was, it's very hard. And it's unusual when you have your enemy within your own family, you know. It's like Prost and Senna.

1:24:48Sorry, let me make sure not to compare to them, but because it's very different and I don't want to compare us to them because they are the greatest rivalry in the sport ever. But in a way, it is comparable in the sense that they had two number one drivers. How long did they last? I mean, they lasted two years and then they were done. Because it's just not an enjoyable situation internally. Because even the team, when you win, they can never really celebrate with you because they need to stay neutral because the other guy lost. When you win, the other guy lost. So it's super hard. But the importance of the team to stay neutral at all times, they can never show favoritism.

1:25:29It's a whole different dynamic. And if you have a Verstappen dynamic where there's a number two driver, the whole team is just for you, rooting for you, cheering with you. You're one. You're one. You're one family. I think it's probably a very different experience and much more wonderful experience and enjoyable experience than when your enemy is in your same garage, in your same engineering room all day long, all day. The team can never be on your side. They have to stay neutral. Even when you win, they got to stay reserved. Toto, when Lewis wins, he could not scream and go crazy when I lost the race, when I'm second.

1:26:13He needs to, yes, celebrate. Great, we got the win. But the other guy lost and finished second. So let's keep it a bit mellow. I don't want to show that I'm happier or cheering more when Lewis wins compared to when he wins because otherwise when I win and Toto would scream Lewis' fan base would go berserk on social media the next day oh look at the Austrian cheering for the German I'm sure he's sabotaging Lewis' car all that is horrible so he has to also stay neutral, measured and it's painful.

1:26:50Jake Humphrey: So I get those emotions and I get a lot of the logic that you've described. I'm interested if you'd take us into that two-day period between having the emotion and then making the biggest decision of your life. How did you come to it? Who did you speak to? Nobody actually. I just told my wife Vivian. She didn't really believe me at first. I didn't believe myself. Told her. She was pretty neutral. she just said do whatever you feel like which was really nice she was really neutral she was like do what you feel like doing which was cool super neutral that was it didn't talk to anybody not even my dear mental coach psychologist didn't consult him either just made the decision and went with it and pretty scary had a few moments of crying I'm built a bit near the water so I have a I sometimes cry so I had a few moments of crying About what?

1:27:48It's just too much. Like, the load. And then this decision stopping your career. I don't know anything else in my life. My whole life I've been the race car driver. Since I'm nine years old, I've been the race car driver. Don't know anything else. So it's huge. Huge. And then coming off the intensity of the season, the body kind of like caves in. It's like going from thousand to zero. and then with such a big decision. So there was some moments of, yeah. And yeah, so just took the two days just to be sure and then I started telling people about it and then went with it. And the feeling when it was public that the decision was made?

1:28:32Yeah, it was... Relief? No, it was good. I was also happy that the public didn't completely, like it was like 50-50 there was a lot of some people who actually were like okay I understand some people even celebrated it like because it's so rare that someone leaves at the top and it's something that people do respect when leaders or whatever do have their greatest achievement and then call it a day so there was a lot of support also and that was very important to me and nice to see of course a load of people also criticizing but it was quite balanced so that also helped me a lot it was not just everybody bashing me like what an idiot were you crazy that was cool and of course my dad was disappointed a lot because he was my number one fan so he would have loved to have seen me continue driving did he try and talk you out of it?

1:29:27yeah yeah he was quite strong in saying you're crazy or what the hell are you doing so he was quite firm in his view so I was very much lost because you stop you have no idea what's next in life you're just lost so my my my approach was speak to as many inspirational people as possible try and get insights ideas and just go for it and try things so I tried I had an electric racing team we were two time world champion with that actually in Xtreme so that was cool beat Lewis beat Lewis's team beat Lewis's team and then one year he beat us so we had two he had one championship that was funny going racing again as team owners against Lewis that was quite funny so that was called Xtreme then after After that, I built a sustainability festival.

1:30:11We're 15 ,000 participants. So that went well. That was Berlin. But it was not really my end result somehow. And then I got into startup investing. And I went deeper and deeper into that. And this has become my north star in business now. I've stopped everything else. So I'm just a startup investor now. And I've built my own fund. So it's really several different approaches and products, essentially, that we're building. and the company is Rosberg Ventures. And within three years, we've already raised$210 million now. So it's really going fast and we're really getting access to the greatest opportunities in the world of startups.

1:30:54And there's the obvious cases also, which is the SpaceX, the Anthropic. We have significant exposure also to those. So we're investing indirectly or directly in all those examples. So it's become a super success and I'm really energized. I'm loving it. We're a great team. I have a team of six. We're a team of six doing nothing else. Constantly in the US as well, because unfortunately that's one of the places where it happens most.

1:31:20Jake Humphrey: As somebody that is curious and has sort of gone and explored different avenues since you finished, what is it about the world of startups that attracted you? I can really relate with the founders because they are living the lives of a high-performance athlete. It's the same. They are relentlessly committed. I mean, their desire to win is off the charts. It's unbelievable how powerfully they are pushing towards winning. It's completely the same as a high-performance athlete. Really identical. Then their struggles also. because they are failing all the time on the way to winning. They have to transform their company because the first idea completely fails.

1:32:13They have to start from scratch, rebuild, reposition the whole team into a new direction. And they're constantly failing and sometimes in big ways. And they need to just not accept and relentlessly fight through these failures on their way to victory. So it's like one-to-one, it's exactly the same. It's so comparable. So I love seeing these founders create their success. And also, very often I can give my input on the human performance front, not on which person to hire so much or how to pivot the business or whatever. But very much on the human performance front, they of course respect me a lot.

1:32:55And we have wonderful conversations and really helpful conversations.

1:32:59Jake Humphrey: Because I was going to ask about the dynamic of the relationship. because of both an investor and a mentor. Which one do you find most comfortable? Well, the one where I'm at home is speaking about how I overcame my failures and my struggles towards victory and how I worked on these details, marginal gains and the psychology behind it and the discipline and all that. And that really resonates with them. And we have wonderful conversations around that where they can always take something away and I take things away from it as well. And so that's really valuable. And I love how these guys, they have an idea.

1:33:37They're sitting in their living room with an idea. And 10 years later, they've changed the world and impacted our lives. It's incredible. Whether it's Uber or Airbnb, everything started with an idea. Airbnb, they rented out a mattress in their living room to a friend who paid for staying on the mattress in the living room. Because there was a conference in town where the friend didn't have a place to stay because the hotels were booked out. That was the birth of Airbnb. And it's just an idea. And these guys are just geniuses. They're generational founders, leaders, and it's just amazing. And what captured me from a second direction then is that you can make the best performing asset class for wealth also from the startup world.

1:34:23If you invest across hundreds of startups in a very smart way into the best founders, the best opportunities, it really de-risks the whole asset class and it generates an incredible performance. So there's an opportunity if you build the right access with time and very few people, it's a little club, it's a very small club, very few people are let into this club. If you manage to work your way into this club because you're adding value, you're helping, you're building your value add and you become respected, if you get into that club, you can build an incredibly performing asset class for your wealth as well.

1:35:01Not only your wealth, that of your friends, other families, or wealth, let's say savings. And that's the trajectory that I'm on now. And performances are now amazing the way we are performing. So we can't even welcome people that want to invest with us anymore because we're like full since a long time now. So many people are wanting to and asking, and this is amazing, it's amazing to be in that position, even though sometimes it's difficult to decline. so it's going super well super performances and very exciting right some quickfire questions Nico what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you think are most important in life behaviors is discipline a behavior yeah discipline something in terms of relationships is it caring vulnerability care for your dearest so it's friends, family because it has a big impact on your own life as well if you're able to build great relationships those are fundamental importance for well-being, for our own lives is to have great relationships and friends and family and wonderful moments with them and the third one so caring and the third one go for the take on challenges, compete go for the wins Very good.

1:36:25Jake Humphrey: What advice would you give a teenage, Nico? A teenager? What advice would you give a teenage you? Oh, teenage me? Be more brave. Be more brave and push harder into discomfort because I'll progress faster as a human being. I'll grow much faster. I'll get better much faster. I'll get quicker much faster. If I'm braver, to push into all the discomfort in the directions where I want to grow. So whether it's being stronger with the army generals and telling them, stop, now is enough. It's not fair for you to talk to me in that way. You need to show me more empathy. You need to care more for my feelings.

1:37:04I need to help me grow rather than pushing me down and destroying me. Trying to. So I'd be more brave, more honest, more authentic and push much harder with care. And that would be a big one. and I could be so much better than, oh my goodness. Because I was so, yeah, I was not brave.

1:37:28Jake Humphrey: What would you say is your greatest weakness? Well, the weakness was also my strength, which is that sensitivity that I have. Because it's both and it depends. It generally causes a lot of struggles mentally. Just thinking I'm not good enough, never going to win, I'm a loser. it's like this it's this demon inside your brain that keeps trying to tell you these things has it gone? it's always going to be there I just care less now because for the rest of my life anything I do in business is going to be the easiest thing in the world whatever you can throw anything at me it's just going to be so easy it's going to be the easiest thing in the world so I'm kind of lucky because I've done the hardest thing everything is just so easy oh my goodness piece of cake but which results also in a bit of a lack of so I don't meditate anymore because it's just so easy so I don't meditate anymore because I'm not I don't have that motivation anymore which is a pity but it's okay you've earned the right I've done it I really have I'm good final question for people that listen to this amazing conversation what would you like to leave them thinking about in terms of finding their own version of high performance I would just leave in saying that each of us has enormous potential within us.

1:38:51And certainly it doesn't matter how much effort you've done or have not done, you're nowhere near your potential. So it's really about making that effort to explore what is possible to improve our own performance. That means going out, reading. That means finding greater discipline. Beautiful also is creating a vision board, something I've learned last year from a very close friend of mine that I just got to know in recent years. And he is incredible how he goes into great detail and maps out his vision board, writes out his vision board, but great detail. And every morning he listens to it himself when he's anyways walking back from dropping the kids off.

1:39:38He has the audio book of his own vision board. So by now, you know, you have text to speech, these AI bots who can read out text. So he's got it in his ear, this bot reading out his vision board every morning. Another, what is it? Five minutes on a 1.5x, you know, fast. Because it's just a reminder and it just helps to keep that discipline and to be a better version of yourself, you know. And this is one of the best learnings for me. And it's really powerful. So on my vision board now is train every single day. and I had a period where I was only playing tennis not doing any training and it was like ad hoc and it's not good, we need to keep moving so now I'm in the gym every second day and I'm running every other day and it's on the vision board and the more I look at the vision board the easier it is to follow those guidelines and so that's super powerful but it's just another example of all the things we can do to grow into our potential and it leads to more happiness also which is wonderful It leads to more happiness for us, for our relationships, for our family, if we ourselves grow into our potential more.

1:40:46So that's the one takeaway that I would really recommend to everybody to push into that. And some of it is going to be uncomfortable. You need to be brave as well, but push, make progress, changes, adapt. Don't stand still. Do you know I see it with my father also? It's really wonderful. My father has never in his life been in a gym, not even when he was a Formula One driver. Never. he hates the gym passionately but as you get old mentally it doesn't really get easier because you know certain you have less projects you have less passions things start to get a bit lesser I think when you're older mentally is my impression and all the more important to keep pushing and my father now has managed to find the motivation to actually go to the gym which is amazing and he found so clearly more happiness also as a result because he's proud of himself you know he's proud he's taking the discomfort comes out of the gym hormones are pumping and he's super proud of himself that he again went to the gym you know so it's really nice to see that he managed to to improve his life he's nearly 80 now you know he's 78 or I don't know so a beautiful example of progress you know and the importance amazing Nico what a fascinating conversation thank you so much thank you very much I hope it was okay for everybody listening hope it was worthy of the show Honestly, you are a different person to the one that I knew when I was around Formula 1.

1:42:17Because there was just Hollywood. I couldn't show who I was.

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