Nottingham Forest Captain Ryan Yates on How Their Europa League Dream Came True (E362)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now, Roman Kemp The broadcaster opens up A powerful conversation On success and mental health That was good but Forrest is my Mid-table championship is my ceiling And then every time I broke through that barrier I'm just like, there's no ceiling So Martin O 'Neill and Roy King Gave me my debut at Forrest He just had a ruthless streak in him Where you just didn't want to cross him I almost want it to hurt I almost want to feel hurt I find it really difficult but I definitely probably play better when I've got that little bit of like you doubted me Imagine standing in front of your Premier League teammates voice shaking, palm sweating knowing your words might just change the direction of a football club forever Well that's where Nottingham Forest captain Ryan Yates found himself and today he reveals the truth behind his career and reveals the secrets of Forest's return to European football for the first time in three decades.

1:01Welcome to the story of a player who's built his career at the top by focusing on the smallest details, the daily habits that he now knows separate success from failure. Ryan shares his mindset, his obsession, and why he simply refuses to be ordinary. This is one of the most powerful conversations we've ever had on this podcast, Damien. It is, Jake. I mean, I'd encourage people to listen to the simple question that his mum asked him that transformed his early career. why Forrest lost her identity and how the manager Nuno helped them rediscover it and just what a psychologist has had to say that's helped him transform both his confidence and his leadership abilities.

1:40Ryan also shares his thoughts on Forrest's passionate owner tells us an incredible story about working with Roy Keane and reveals the daily behaviours that he believes have taken him to the top. At one point he even asks us why we think he holds himself to such high standards. Honestly this guy is a really deep thinker And finally, he also tells us why he believes one day he will pull on an England jersey. This is High Performance, the podcast that turns the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. And this is a classic episode that we got so much from. Before we dive in though, can I ask that you hit follow on Apple or Spotify so you never miss an episode and help us bring you even more stories like this.

2:22as we bring you the story of Nottingham Forest captain Ryan Yates on High Performance.

2:33Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. First of all, congratulations. What a season. How do you feel when you reflect on it? I think when I've taken a few weeks to look back, it's an incredible achievement. for over 30 years outside of Europe, fighting relegation for the past two seasons. It's an incredible achievement, but if I'm totally honest, one with a slight bit of, I wouldn't say regret, but not having that chance to go even further. I think there'll always be that sense of wanting more, but that's just part and parcel. But I think overall it's an incredible achievement.

3:10And when was that feeling of frustration at its peak for you? probably say the next morning after I woke up after the Chelsea game I think just because yeah it was a bit of a shootout that that final game of the season whether it be you know Europa League Champions League or Conference League we knew we achieved something special but if anything I just think it shows how far the clubs come in such a short space of time to be disappointed with European football I think just shows the the culture of where the clubs got to and it comes right from the top from the owner and stems all the way down to his players.

3:47So can we explore then when Nuno came in because it was very much before and after you know when he joined he'd got one win in 13 games what do you feel he's brought to the club? I think the biggest thing he's brought is stability he walked through the door and he didn't want to make massive changes he wanted to understand us as individuals and what would make because firstly, surviving the Premier League, and then ultimately thrive. It's backroom staff and all the staff, the amazing people at the club that have all, through time, just improved. And he knew what this group needed more than anyone.

4:23And he was the right person, because he just bought that stable base, win, lose, draw. He's been exactly the same. From the moment he walked through the door to the time we had a chance to create history and potentially win an FA Cup, or get Champions League football and that is just what the club needed at the time. Let's talk then about the moment he walked through the door. Before we talk about what happened on that day, I'd love to know where you were at as a group of players. What does one win in 13 in the Premier League feel like? Tough. Yeah, I haven't really thought back to be fair, but when I do, I feel like it was a changing room lacking self-belief individually.

5:05collectively we we sort of lost our identity um and sometimes through no fault of your own you know you just need to change obviously cooper did absolutely incredible for me individually and us as a club to to get us promoted but you know you just need to change sometimes and and nuna was was perfect with his experience and and know-how i think and could you explain how that happens this idea of sort of a team losing its identity because you know I used to spend my time hosting football matches and my pundits would often go I think they've lost their identity or I watch the telly now and I see Roy Keane going oh what's the identity and I think it's confusing for football fans so you're on the inside you're not just a player at Forest you're the captain so when you talk about a team losing its identity like what actually happens and also like how does it feel?

5:54Yeah it's not good I feel like you're only an individual in the team but I think when when you lose your identity you can you can clearly see this season what we're all about we're all about being together nothing through the lines being extremely hard to play against you look at other teams say a Liverpool under Klopp they're high press high energy from minute one to 90 they're gonna run you into the ground that sort of culture and and things like that is is what made us this season so so so strong and when you lose that little bit of belief in each other I think more than anything when you're out on the pitch you sort of go into self protection mode and sort of like oh as long as I'm playing well and I'm starting the next game that's all that matters whereas I think when you really thrive in football is when you know you can do your bit but you can also help your mate.

6:45So what did Nuno do then when on day one he walked through the door and you know things were a little bit broken right it wasn't terrible but it wasn't great what was the first thing that he'd said can you remember i think he said just be yourselves and let and let me work it out um and he also said this this season he said i'm gonna have to make some tough decisions by the team if we want to achieve something great i need to have a clear mind let me work it out for myself um and it sort of gave us that that freedom to just try and be the best you can and impress him. And it took him a bit of time, but I think after a solid pre-season with us, it's turned out to be obviously fantastic.

7:29Did he do, I mean, I was interested in the point that you said that both individually and collectively, that loss of confidence had happened. What did he do on an individual basis to make a difference, Ryan? He just knew what the club needed. He's very private and he's a real deep thinker. and I just feel like he was able to work out exactly what we needed at the time. I don't think he made too many massive changes but he's a very complex man and trying to figure out what he's done is very difficult but it seemed to have worked. Did he do any individual meetings with you to understand who you are when you were being yourself?

8:09Looking back, I feel like we probably had too much information at that time and I feel like he just wanted us to play with freedom, we had quite a young dressing room a lot of new players yeah, I think he stripped it back and there wasn't so many meetings but then when he spoke everybody was dialed in and hung on every single word he said and that's something I've never had before, I've had managers who would speak a lot, speak a lot, give us so much detail, I want to improve and he just said just show me, show me what you can do and I'll make the decision

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10:27Again, that goes against the narrative, doesn't it? We think that because we've got the information, we've got the stats, the data, we need to give it here. But for you on the receiving end of that, what did that do? Yeah, it was a shock for me, to be honest, because I'm a person who seeks data, seeks the self-improvement constantly. And to be honest, it was probably exactly what I needed at the time. You know, you're playing for the love of the game. You started because of that. And I think that's probably what he saw in the dressing room, players that had so many thoughts going through their head and they just needed to clear that out and do what you do best.

11:03And did he have any special words for you as a captain, anything he wanted you to be or to do? I think he wanted me to be more of a voice, being the captain since he's been there. I can give one example. His first game at home to Bournemouth, he didn't give us any heads up or anything. We were about to go out at the city ground. I remember it really clearly. And he just came up to me, patted me on the chest and said, give a team talk to the team. And I remember, you've got a couple of minutes. And I remember thinking, I was someone who struggled with sort of public speaking. that wasn't a real strength of mine and um sort of took myself off to the cubicle and I thought wow what am I going to say here and uh I said a few things and it worked really well I'm quite passionate about you know I think I went on about saying the city ground and this is the start of a new era sort of thing and from that day on I remember thinking I need to really be a voice that's the captain he wants to be a voice to be a leader to motivate and yeah with work from my psychologist and everything.

12:08I continue to do these team talks every time we play and yeah, it's something that's sort of gone from a weakness in my game to I'd like to think a strength now. And can I ask about the mental hurdle? Because when I sometimes speak to players on this, it's the idea that they go, but I'm just one of the lads or who am I to speak out or I'm not playing well and I don't feel I can tell others. So they create lots of barriers to almost make it difficult to speak out. Did you have to overcome anything like that? Absolutely. For some people, it might sound ridiculous, but I'd say that the team talk and the speaking has probably been one of the toughest challenges in my career because I knew Nuno was fantastic and I knew if I wanted to thrive as a captain under him, this was a non-negotiable for him.

12:53And I've spent hours and hours with the psychologist who was at Forest. I was actually playing golf with him yesterday, just talking through a few things about the team talks and how things have progressed and how confident I am with them. And now I still, the lads laugh because they see me because I write notes on my phone of like three or four bullet points. I really want to get in for this team talk. And a few of the lads are like, what are you looking at on your phone? And they're seeing, oh, it's your team talk, so they're not off the cuff sort of thing. So yeah, it's something I've massively worked on, but now I feel like I'm, I genuinely feel like I'm inspiring the lads to play better.

13:29So how early do you start planning for the team talk that you'll deliver? sometimes it really comes naturally to me now and i'm like yeah i can i just know what i'm going to say here at the city ground it's under the lights it's it's just a really natural one but other games where maybe i'm not as motivated to play for for whatever reason um i might you know speak with emma my partner and rehearse it like sometimes i'll get her in a huddle in the living room and be like you know so something i'm working at all the time and and practicing And it's Emma there going, yes, I'm ready to run through brick walls for you, Ryan.

14:04Do you know what? Sometimes she's like, no, that's not going to work that. And that's just what I need. Isn't that brilliant though? Yeah. Because I think sometimes having a voice so far detached from what's going on in the dressing room is the most valuable person to give you feedback on your team talks. I couldn't agree more, yeah. She wouldn't mind me saying she's pretty clueless with football. She's not into it. Family's not into it. And coming up, being brought up in a football-obsessed family, my dad and brother like football fanatics I absolutely love it it's my dad's dream for me to be a footballer and to have Emma's side of the family who are just not interested they're happy for me they're Ryan Yates fans but they're just yeah not interested is perfect and I hope you've kept all the notes you've made over the season yeah with me and the guy we've got them from I think maybe the first one was Man United at home 22 it was like on Christmas time wasn't it yeah it was when we won so I thought From this season?

14:59No, from last season. Last season, yeah. And I thought, oh, we won. That must have been from the team talk. But if I look back now, it was probably rubbish. And have you had feedback off your teammates about your effectiveness of them? Not particularly, but I feel like you just know when you've done a good one. And, you know, I think before the Chelsea game, I did a really passionate one. I almost started tearing up, which probably went almost too far, but I couldn't hold my emotions in about what the game meant to everybody in the club. What did you say? I just said, we've just got an opportunity to change everybody's lives.

15:38And before the money, the contracts, everything, we've just got a moment that we might be able to remember for the rest of our lives, and that's more than anything. And then I started tearing up. I think Nuno was like, right, lads, yeah, let's go. Yeah, come on. Yeah, so. And I wonder how you felt then, personally, on the final, a whistle of that Chelsea game because it's so clear already how much you love Nottingham Forest, how much you love the football club and how sort of plugged in you are to what this football club means for that city and for those fans. I was gutted because I think in football it's, you know, you get opportunities and you just want to take them with both hands and you just never know what's around the corner.

16:17The Premier League is, it's just ruthless. You look at Crystal Palace winning the Premier League and the FA Cup and finishing mid-table and just every team has got quality and quality players throughout. And I feel like when you get that opportunity, you want to take it because you never know when that's going to come around again. And did you do any work with your psychologist after that to kind of get to a point where you're able to realise all the things you have achieved this season rather than the things that you've missed? I haven't yet, to be honest. I went straight away on holiday. didn't want to think about it because I'm so I feel like in the season I'm just so obsessed with myself improving doing the best I can and then it's really difficult because you you know loads of times on this podcast you guys speak about reflecting like oh look at look at but when you're in it you're desperate to achieve more you want you just want more and more and you're right I do need to find the time to reflect and be like wow what a season that was but I don't feel like I'm ready yet I feel like I'm still feel like it still could still happen but yeah it's something i need to work on for sure you know what i think's really nice right is for you to sit on here and be really vulnerable like this to talk about the fact that you do have self-doubt when it comes to talking to the players and that you did feel gutted at the end of a season where you still made it to weberley and you still qualified for europe and took forest there for the first time in 30 years and so many of the people that listen to this podcast right they don't listen to it because they're full of confidence and they believe they're high performers they actually listen to it probably for the same reasons you do that they still have self-doubt, they still have imposter syndrome, they still sort of walk what feels like quite a lonely road at times.

17:56But that's the very reason why they listen to high performance. Do all those things resonate? Absolutely. I've listened to the podcast and you listen to people, the likes of Gordon Ramsay, all the footballers who've been on, listening to the Calvert-Lewin and Ollie Watkins one when I was away on holiday. And you just see that, you know, everyone's just regular people with their own challenges. and yeah seeking that that self-improvement constantly is is my biggest thing and you know things like this obviously help massively and for those people listening to this who feel like you do but don't have the opportunity to work with a psychologist in the way that you do what's your psychologist's name chris marshall what's chris done for you that you think is such great advice or has been so valuable for you that you'd like to share it with with people listening I think the biggest thing is he has probably taught me to own myself, sort of own what I do best.

18:55I'd say everybody's so different. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and I feel like it's honing in on them strengths and making them super strengths, making them amazing, making them stand out. and don't worry about your weaknesses you can work on them you know just nail the strengths and one thing he said to me yesterday was if I was to speak to someone close to me and ask them about you and give them some you know some sort of insight into me he would have said that through adversity it sort of gave me strength so every time I've had a setback or I've not been good at team talks or any sort of adversity, I've always chased trying to get better and use that as motivation.

19:42Like when I get through this, I'm going to be an even better person instead of using that as an obstacle, just using that as a challenge to get through. And I feel like that's always sort of been the way my career has gone with the loans and everything. And how do you, in a world though, where people are quick with opinions, especially for something like football, where it's not always reasoned, where they want to tell you what you can't do, they want to focus on what you don't have. How do you drown out that noise to then just keep tuned into your super strengths? Yeah, it is tough. And something I struggled with when I was younger, sort of when I broke into Forrest's first team, you know, the first game I got mad at the match, second game I scored.

20:27You're on Twitter, Ryan Yates, NFFC, you're like, I am, I'm the dog's bollocks sort of thing. what a player I am and then soon comes the negativity and you're trapped into that cycle of looking and it is so difficult with social media and stuff something I'm in a really good place with now my thing to help with that is my circle is so tight my family unit I don't have a big circle and my family are just so grounded if I ever got a bit big time or started being not me, they would quickly tell me. And especially my dad, he's really, really grounded. Has he ever had reasons to tell you? Maybe a little bit growing up, yeah, or when I was 13, 14, 15, just got my scholarship at Forest.

21:19I might have been giving it big beans to the lads and stuff and he said, all right, mate, you've not achieved anything now. So he has definitely done that when I was younger. and I think yeah the key for me is keeping my circle extremely tight and like I learned from this this show you are a product of your environment the the people you hang around with the most is what you ultimately become so I'm not sure if you're going to like this question because you are self-deprecating you are humble but with all the work that you've done if I said to you okay then be proud of your super strengths what are Ryan Yates's super strengths that you're happy just to sit here and tell us?

21:56I would probably say I'm the hardest part working in the room. I feel like nobody in Forrest and nobody works as hard as me or if someone is working harder than me it makes me motivated to work harder. Once I've got my eye on something I'll achieve it. Like I'll do everything I can. I'll seek different avenues of how I could achieve that goal and I'm really focused with that. Well I think they're two very powerful ones. I'd love to talk about the goal setting and the goal achieving again it's something that it's so valuable for other people take us to a moment in time where you've set yourself a goal and tell us about the work that you did to make that goal a reality okay the one that sprang straight to mind was i want to play in the premier league so i would say i think we were doing i must have been 15 16 during my scholarship and uh they came around like what do you want to achieve you know like that sort of stuff and I was like I want to play in the Premier League and everyone was like oh that's funny they were sort of like I want to play for Forest and and who were the people asking these questions?

23:03I think it was just our tutor who was doing our BTEC course so this is when you're a football apprentice but you still have to do school you have to do your lessons yes and they've asked what's your biggest ambition you said playing in the Premier League and who's laughed? the other players in the room? yes is that right? yeah but I don't know where maybe I do know where I got it from but I just had this drive that I didn't really, from a young age, I didn't really care what people thought, as in my teammates. You know, I was always the busy one. God, he's so busy, he is. And I just thrived off that.

23:35Every time people said that, I was like, yeah, that's me. And for those that don't know the football vernacular of busy, explain that. Just like always wanting to do more, be the best, sort of teacher's pet, that sort of thing is busy. Isn't it funny that that is seen as a negative among young footballers, wanting to do extra? It's like, there's a reason why you're now in the Premier League. But can I just stop you there? You said, I don't know where I got it, and then you went, actually, I do know where I got it from. Where? I'm pretty sure it's my mum in the family. So when I went on loan, I was on loan at Notts County in League Two, and I was playing really well.

24:15We were top of the league. Kevin Oldham was the manager, ex-Premier League midfielder, loved me. It was amazing. I lived in my apartment, so I was on loan from Forest. Training ground was 10 minutes. It was perfect. It was doing amazing. And then Christmas came. Scunthorpe in League One, they were fighting for a promotion and League One came in for me. And all the family basically were like, you can't go there. We're loving it. Notts County, it's so low. It's great, it's perfect. You're the best player. Their manager was calling me. I was in Asda's and I was like, I can't pick this up yet, I can't pick this up yet.

24:49Rang my mum and explained because she's not really into football too much. She understands. And I said, oh, Scunthorpe want me. She was like, well, you've got to go. She said, that's an awful mentality. You have to go. Do you want to play in the Premier League? you told me you want to play for England. And at that moment was sort of a massive crossroads in my life, really, to do I want to be comfortable? Because you go to League One, you might be sat on the bench, you might not play. And I was for a while and I was thinking, I don't know, what have I done? But ultimately that decision has sort of took me on a path of just go for it.

25:32And I think my mum is, even now, she just understands me. she obviously brought me up and she's just the one that in a game if my body language is not me she's like she doesn't know what happened with the game but she said you just weren't you weren't there today and that that hits deeper than anything she just understands me and gives me that drive and if I'm ever if I ring up she's like you're in a bad mood because she just understands I'm really bubbly all the time and she's like come on liven up you know bring your best and yeah nothing to do with football just totally body language and yeah Now I interrupted you you were telling us about that thank you for sharing that about where it comes from but go back and tell us about the the tutor asking what do you want to do you answer Oh the Premier League everyone's sort of laughing but I just remember the feeling of no I'll do it then you hold yourself accountable of I've got to do it now and it's sort of that inner inner pressure that extra little bit of you know If you are whatever you tell yourself you are, and I really believe in that, if you tell yourself every day, I'm going to play in the Premier League, you'll end up doing behaviours that are going to take you that direction.

26:45And this has also come from my mum's sister. She, when I was really young, she got like a pin board and she said, get right, go print off Cristiano Ronaldo's body and put your passport photo, like your little head on the top of it. Go get a big house, print it, put it on the board, big stack of money printed put it on the board and it's just that from a young young age I've just had this like backing I don't know what the word is but like just that feeling like everyone's behind me you can do it you've got some brilliant powerful women in your life yeah it's isn't that incredible I've never really thought but it has been the women that have really given me that I think that's just self-belief if you can do it why not like I'm interested there that you said that I'm telling myself every day I'm going to be a Premier League footballer what were the behaviours that you were doing then that was different from the guys that said I just want to be a footballer?

27:38I would just say trying to be better especially younger it's very dog eat dog in academies and you know it's all about that next contract and holding myself accountable has just made me really want it and never lose sight of what it takes and I feel like I would just go into detail of what it takes so I need to get the sleep but what goes into getting good sleep? do I need to speak to a nutritionist it's all well and good but I want to be the best I want to eat the best like I like I went for a stage of growing up that I wanted to make it so bad like I wouldn't eat anything bad now looking back I'm like that's that wasn't healthy that that's not good long term you know and I got like so obsessed on my first loan to Barrow um driving sort of two hours to training and and stuff I'd sort of take some couscous and a bag of spinach and I'd boil all the kettle in the hotel room because I just didn't want to eat out.

28:34All the lads were eating out and I was like, that's not going to make me play in the Premier League. Even if I didn't think it, that was my subconscious at the time. I'm not going to play for Nottingham Forest if the lads would go to an Italian on a Friday, the lads in Barrow, and they might have a Peroni with it or whatever and I'm just like, what's going on here? I might have a slice of garlic bread, but I can't. You're talking about being obsessive, right? I mean, that's really what that is. If you don't eat a single... How long did you go for not eating anything? I might have had a little bit, but I'd regret it.

29:07I'd think, oh, that's going to stop. It's not good, it's not healthy, but I just was that obsessed at the time of making it that I just couldn't... Say if I'd have some chocolate or I'll have too much chocolate, I think, oh, I'm not going to train well Monday morning. Whereas now I'm like, I've got that confidence, I'll have chocolate, I'll be fine. and have you stopped to take a moment to tell yourself not only have you made it as a Premier League player you've captained a Premier League team to the greatest season they've had in decades no at the minute I feel like I've got more to achieve so I don't really want to think about it and football is so cutthroat you've seen the signings the club have made over the years hundreds of players and yeah I feel like if you take your eye off off the ball then you know there's only one way and that's down in football and I want to I want to be going up I feel like I've got so much to achieve So this is an interesting phase then in your career because from what I know about you and of you and we've only met for the first time today and exchanged a few messages I would imagine that there's a part of your brain not happy with the amount of games you played last season or started last season Absolutely yeah how did you process that?

30:22it's just another challenge it's just one thing I've spoke with Chris psychologist about as well is when I was younger I'd always look to blame other people I remember my youth team coach Jack Lester who had a massive influence on my career and my mentality I think we lost 3-0 to Charlton or something an academy game and everything and I didn't play well and he just brought up in front of the whole group he says you're always blaming other people and I just remember going back to the digs sulking a little bit and thinking but knowing he's right and I feel like that's something something I've learned and if I'm not starting enough games that's my problem something you know for other people to take away is if you can look at yourself in the mirror first before anything else that is so important And did you go and speak to the manager and ask him?

31:17Yeah I did I had some really good conversations with him. Ultimately, it's down to you to work it out exactly because footballs, you have to play with freedom. You can't be too rigid. And I've done that before where I've tried to do exactly what the manager wants. And it totally takes away from what you bring, your personality on the pitch. And that is a massive thing for me is bringing personality. How many games did you not start when you thought, right, I'm going to go and have a chat with the manager? I don't think it was a certain amount of games I just think it was just the right time I think with Nuno you have to pick and choose when you go and speak to him and luckily we had a good chat so hopefully it was the right time and everything was good So what did you say?

32:00What do I need to do to play? I'm desperate to play I'm desperate to succeed for the club obviously a few things I can't go into but just this is what I bring what more do you want from me? and totally like, what can I do to improve? And his answer was? More. Really? No, it wasn't. It was loads of different things. I fully appreciate, obviously, some of those are out of your control and also not the sort of things you necessarily want to discuss in a public forum. I'm interested in the things, though, where he actually did say, well, you could try this and this, and what they were and whether you did and whether you felt they made a difference.

32:39I wouldn't say anything stands out, to be honest, but I think you just and I should do it more I always I always regret there's some regrets I had earlier in my career where I haven't gone and seen a manager you know earlier I was like why don't I just go see him you know but when you're in there day to day you're like oh he's the manager you can't you can't speak to him but I think you just come away from it with a clearer head I don't think there's been many times I've gone and seen a manager and thought oh that that didn't go down well you'd like to be a manager one day I reckon yeah potentially it seems quite stressful it's very stressful but would you want players to come to you and say what can I do for you yeah I would to be fair yeah and honestly and you'll feel this as well having spent years around former Premier League footballers and some of the best players that played in the league and I would say to them Alvin would you go and see the manager they'd go I wouldn't go and see the manager if he's not playing me that's up to him but surely this is the right approach right yeah it has to be I feel like just talking in general is good I feel like you've got to be and not a very nice person to, if you go about it in the right way and be like anyone at any job with a boss, especially if you're someone who really wants to achieve.

33:48I feel like if I've gone home and sat and thought about it and then I've gone home again and thought about it and I keep going home and thinking, you've just got to get it off your chest. Yeah, it always seems to end up all right. But there's a skill going as well about learning to go and ask for feedback. You spoke about the Sarva Davis episode, resonated with you. how do you go about creating an environment where people can give you feedback that you can take on board i think you need the right people and we certainly have that at forest like the culture's changed massively especially this season this disability and i'd probably say good people and just people who are themselves i feel like if if people aren't putting on a front and they're just being totally themselves and they're really friendly which like like today walking in everyone was so friendly.

34:37It just made me feel so settled. I felt like I could just totally be myself. And I've definitely had dress rooms that haven't been like that. And I would say, yeah, everyone, you know, new players, even if it's the smallest of things, it might be a big thing to somebody. And yeah, just having that. If you're just yourself, then I feel like you then become quite approachable. So what are the behaviours that we would see if we walked into the training ground at Forest now? now I feel like you walk in the dressing room and there's so many different characters I could go through the dressing room go on give us some just one that springs to mind is like an Oleriner incredible player always on his Snapchat always on Instagram but he never goes over that that edge of it becoming unprofessional and it if that makes him thrive which it clearly does because he's had an incredible season then that's absolutely fine but when it's time to work I feel like the group at Forest now is extremely driven, not only to improve as an individual and make their own careers excel, but for the team.

35:45And I feel like until this season, that hasn't quite happened. And that comes from the investment from the owner, the correct recruitment, and ultimately having staff who are all driven to one common goal, and that's to improve the club. I want to talk then about this winning mentality I'd like to talk about the Liverpool game early on in the season fourth game of the season it was my first start and yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure three or four games in I think it might have been as soon as I mention that game there's a big smile creeps across your face where does your brain take you to? it just takes me to when the whistle went and just that feeling back in the dressing room where we thought we're pretty good lads like we've got a right chance hope like I don't think we're going to be near the bottom of the league this year because really after coming from two years of being near the bottom of the league just just surviving I remember the anxiety of when we got the points deduction and it's just looking over your shoulder it's it's really tough more mentally than anything and just after that win we just thought we've we've got a good chance lads to have a really good season how significant was it to beat that team who obviously went on to win the premier league so early on it was massive yeah it was really big obviously it was just such a nice day Callum scored a fantastic goal his trademark and Nuno actually made a tactical tweak for that game he he thought we're gonna overload the midfield because they are fantastic Liverpool in the middle of the pitch and we played five midfielders and I think Callum, Otan Odoi and Anthony Alanga were probably a bit disappointed not to play two standout players in our season.

37:26But I feel like they came on, Anthony assisted Callum, who scored an incredible goal. Yeah, it just grew that sense of belief in the manager. The supporters believed in us more. We just believed in ourselves as players and staff. And yeah, it was a significant game for sure. And when you talk about that sense of belief in the manager, he made a big tactical change and you ended up beating Liverpool. So what does that then do for you as players when it comes to him making decisions going forwards? You just have more trust. You know, if you get put to the bench or you think, no, this is right for the team.

38:03And I can honestly say, as a footballer being on the bench many times, you know, sometimes you're sat on the bench thinking, this is awful for me, this is. But when you know it's for the greater good and when you've got that amazing team environment, you'll always want to look after number one. That's why I am where I am today and why footballers are where they are because they just want themselves to do well ultimately. But when there is that amazing dressing room and that feeling that you're going to be used for the greater good of the team and you could achieve something, it really does take the edge off that.

38:39And one of the phrases that we sometimes use on here, Ryan, is that confidence is built on evidence. For you to have the confidence that you're going to have a good season, you need the evidence that the Liverpool win gives you. did you do anything after that game to remind yourself of what you'd done well the trademarks, the identity of a team that you were going to take through the rest of the year? We didn't debrief, we don't really debrief games under Nuno which we've always done, I've always done with managers Why do you think that is? I think he does it through the training, through the week he will put practices on and he will get us all round before or our first training session back, he'll speak to us all, maybe a couple of things, but them couple of things really stay with you, instead of giving too much information, and he obviously sees that works with the team.

39:32So did he come and say anything after that Liverpool win? No, he's very, he's never too high, never too low, I've never known anyone like that, he will show passion at the right times, and be disappointed, but ultimately day to day, he's very, very consistent, and that is just what we need with so many big characters in the club and yeah, that's what is needed. Because I think one of the standout stories of your season is the teams that you took points off. You took points off Liverpool, you took points off Chelsea, you took points off Man United, you took points off Villa, you took points off Man City, you took points off Arsenal.

40:08Would you take us into what happens in the build-up to those biggest games to prepare you all mentally? Or again, are you saying that Nuno treats that game like you're playing Southampton at home? When I went to speak to Nuno, I said to him, I think we might have had a really big game in my head. I think we might have been playing Liverpool at home, maybe. And I said, I went to him, I said, look, this is a game for me. This is where I thrive. It's at home. I can bring the energy to the crowd. And he said, Ryan, every game is massive. He said, we've got Brentford, somebody else coming up after.

40:47He said, they are just as important to me. And I remember thinking, yeah, you're right. It is just three points. And he has had that mentality and has never come away from that mentality since he's been here. And I feel like that has kept us very, on just a level which is really good. So would that prevent you from being overawed by Man City at the City round? Yeah, probably. Probably, just like the Chelsea game. He said, it is a huge game, but we have a process you know how we play this is how we're going to do it and he would then go into detail about before the game how we're going to play how we're going to attack them and through the week but this is just another game that we stick to our processes So when you see a manager being so consistent like that and then you see the scenes occasionally where he's dancing or the moments where he said he'll raise the emotion can you give us any examples of where he does that and the impact it has?

41:46pre-season we went away to Spain pre-season tour we'd been away for five or six days we went for a team meal the new lads would do their initiations and stuff which is what just singing so they'd sing on the stuff and it got a bit lively there was a few glasses of wine and um we were training every single day so you drinking i had a glass of wine i'll be honest and um yeah it was it was a really good night all the staff were there and it was great and we just wanted to stay for another hour or two and we were going to go back at I don't say 11 o 'clock and you know the lads were enjoying themselves and we went up to Nuno and a few of us and we're like oh Gaffer can we can we stay for another hour and he said yeah go for it we're off but just make sure you're back I can't remember exactly what he said but I just remember that feeling of like oh he is he does have that personal side he understands what we need and I feel like that night and other nights we've had similar was sort of the making of us, you need that you know where lads have had a drink or starting to really get to know each other and open up to each other about things.

43:00Do you feel you know the manager because I think he's very very closed off when he does his media work isn't he? Yeah very yeah but but no, I don't. I'll be honest, I don't. I think he really keeps his cards close to his chest and if that's the way he wants to do it, then I fully respect that and he's obviously done fantastic for us so far. But again, it's a great learning for people listening to this that they think, oh, to be a great leader, you have to tell everyone everything, you have to expose yourself, you have to be vulnerable and open all the time. But actually, that's not necessarily always the case, right?

43:34I agree and I've learned that, you know, sometimes it's not about you, it's about the people around you he probably understands that his strengths there is other people, his staff have strengths that are better for his assistant manager is fantastic, he really speaks to a lot of us, Rui he's been brilliant, if I have a question about something I'll probably go to him which may lead back to the manager he has his own psychologist who's totally helped me in a different way, seen me think make me see things differently. So Nuno has his own psychologist that works with him and his coaching team? Yeah, and it's totally different to the way, for example, Chris worked when he was at the club, but just to make you look differently.

44:22Can you explain how they've helped you see things differently? I think it was towards the back end of last season when we were sort of fighting relegation. I was on the bench against, I think, Aston Villa, and I just said to Julio, his English is not the best, so he'd sort of do the Google Translate on the phone and stuff. I said like, you know, what do I need to do? You know, what do I need to do? And he just was talking to me about how I got too emotional about things. So he thought when I made a mistake, I'd think about it. And that was something I hadn't really picked up. And he was saying I need to stay.

45:00If I go out of the sort of the flow state, you know, it's how quickly you go back into it. and yeah after you know speaking to him a couple of times he really helped me and then i ended up having a game so he said to me you'll have a game where or you'll have a few moments in games where you just won't know the time you'll just float through the game you'll just be flowing things will be going well you won't be thinking about your your actions you just do it he always says action after action all the time the lad sort of take the mick of it he just says action after action after action action don't worry about anything else do your action and then there's another action straight away you haven't got there's no time between the two have you had a game like that um yeah i can't remember who it's against but the game was just done and i remember thinking wow like i wasn't thinking about anything else other than every every pass every where i need to be there was no like oh look at the glock of the atmosphere or the singing the song and mother king tyra at city i was just totally i can't remember it's against but i'm just thinking thinking, wow, and I've never actually had another game like that.

46:03Maybe I need to speak with him again. Do you remember what you were doing that created the environment for you to get into that state? I was just so focused on the task at hand. I'd love to actually find which game it was and just to see if I played well or not. Maybe if you watch it back and you play shit. No, no, but the amount of time, When we were lucky enough to sit down with Dan Carter, the rugby union player, he spoke about how he'd worked with a guy called Kerry Evans that got him in the same state, didn't he? And he had little triggers, like if he made a mistake, he'd hit his leg so his mind wasn't going into the future of, oh, it's not my day, or replaying the mistake.

46:48He was like, no, we're hitting that leg. I'm in the moment, just action after action. I love our conversation with Dan Carter, if you haven't listened to that. I might have done. He's a mentality monster. he breaks his day down into like the exact minute and what's involved in that day every day of the week throughout his entire career I mean it's incredible and that leads me actually onto the question like you had talented players at Forest last season there are teams that have had a really awful season this year you know Man Utd and Spurs are two great examples they have got some brilliant players in their squads right but they've struggled you've had an amazing season so what percentage or what amount of the Forest success this season do you think is down to getting things right mentally rather than physically?

47:30A percentage, I'd say 90%. I remember Thomas Frank coming on air and speaking about the culture and saying culture wins over everything. And I remember listening and thinking, yeah, maybe, yeah. And then this season, I agree. I feel like if you get the right people, it's worth more than the talent and everything. If you've got the talent, you need the talent, but you're not at Nottingham Forest if you're not a great player. and if you've got people behind you ready to fight for you ready to do everything then I feel like the mental side is massive. Can I ask you about the owner? Yeah. Because we've spoken about Nuno being quite emotionally stable.

48:11Yeah. And the owner, there are instances where you've seen his emotion whether it's on the field after the injury or whether it's some of the pronouncements on Twitter about refereeing decisions. What's your experience of him been like? So ever since he bought the club, he just bought a passion and a drive. We were mid-table championship. We could have potentially got into the playoffs. I think I might have just made my championship debut. So I was just buzzing to have made my debut. And he got us all on a Zoom call, the team at the time. and he was saying, come on guys, he was motivating us, this was the owner, because he thought, come on, we can get to the Premier League, and he was really trying to motivate us, and I just remember as a young lad coming away thinking, like, wow, that's the owner of the football club, and I didn't really, I thought that might have been quite normal, I was really inexperienced, and then year on year, he's obviously invested so much that the level of the training ground now from if you'd have came five or six years ago is like a totally different place, so going to the Premier League has allowed that to happen but just on the owner he's just so so passionate and you know when you wear your heart on your sleeve like that you know you are going to go over the edge sometimes but for me personally I love that he brings that passion and I feel like that's potentially a strong reason why we're doing so well If you're still overpaying for wireless it's time to say yes to saying no At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no.

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51:52I suppose the biggest moment with him this season was when he came on the pitch after Taiyo Wonyi got bad injured in that game. Did you see what was going on and wonder what was happening at that point? No, not a clue. Honestly, I try and stay off my phone. I might just see if my family are where they are and stuff, but I really try and detach. because you're quite emotional, win, lose or draw after a game. Yeah, nothing. I was just like, how's Tywo? At the time, we didn't honestly think he was too bad. We were just disappointed with the outcome of the game and then you go home and then you realise the next day from people talking and stuff that it was obviously really bad and just buzzing that he was able to come through and I'm sure he's going to make a strong recovery and come back better than ever.

52:37So when did you first hear that it was more serious than just going off with a bit of a knock? I think the next day. Because he actually, he went home and he was in some discomfort, but he went home and then he was rushed to hospital. And then it was a little bit scary. And obviously it came out that he was in a coma and stuff and then everyone gets really scared. But we obviously had the information that, you know, he's going for an operation, everything, touch wood should be fine. And have you seen him since? Yeah, he actually came to the dressing room before Chelsea. And everyone was like, oh my God, that's incredible.

53:12Everyone was absolutely buzzing for him. He came out onto the pitch to the city ground, got an ovation. And yeah, someone who, again, wears the heart on their sleeve. And he's been there since, I think he was the first signing, one of the first signings from when we got promoted to the Premier League. So yeah, I've got a special attachment with Taiwo. And as someone who has such a broad perspective of life, not just football, what did that moment do in terms of putting things into perspective for you you know what that was probably one of the few moments i have where you think you know what football isn't everything this is this is taiwo's life on on the line you know we want to achieve european football and etc but you know he is an incredible guy around the dressing room loved by everybody and you know i actually saw as i was walking to my car after the game i saw his brother and he said how's taiwo he didn't know and I remember the the look on his face he just looked so you know like worried and upset and I just remember thinking wow that's you know this is more than this is more than football and that was all we were really thinking about and until his his operation was successful.

54:22And what did you feel was the job of the captain in that situation when there was rumor conversation fear doubt about the the fate of Tyre? Listen to the facts and let the let the professionals do their job the medical team at Forrester are incredible they've got such a tight-knit unit there now and I feel like there hasn't been massive chop and change again with that part of the club and that is so important our injury record this year has been amazing we've had so many injuries the past few seasons and credit to them for that So look, we sit here now, it's the summer all the Premier League teams will invest I guess around this time how do you feel about the fact that Forrest will go again and will spend more money how does that sit mentally for you because there's constant pressure to perform are you looking at your phone are you watching the news are you wondering who's coming in are you listening to the rumours so when I was younger I would be I'd be like what's going on I'd even say first year in the Premier League the players we were signing I'm thinking another midfielder another midfielder and now I'm like go for it I'm like go for it it's going to make me better I've sort of tried to change that that mindset of if they're coming in and they're a top player well I'm going to play that means I'm a top player and sort of change the you know that sort of see it as a challenge as I spoke with Chris and I always bring up it's like see that adversity if you like as you can overcome that and when you do overcome that that's going to be amazing and when I'm excited about something like anything when I'm excited and buzzing I feel like I can change that anxiety.

56:04As you said, it's quite closely linked, the anxiety and the excitement. And if I can go more excitement and be excited to play or excited about the outcome of something, then I'll bring my best. Do you get anxiety? Absolutely, yeah. Not on a big scale, but definitely with certain things. I had to prep for this and what you might ask me and different things. and for me it's sort of channeling that anxiety and what works for me. So like planning is a huge one for me. Making sure I'm planned and like I might, it could be anything, random, like making sure I know what I'm going to wear tomorrow just reduces that anxiety just a little bit and I write notes all the time.

56:50What do I want? Just anything. Like if I need to do the gas meter, I need to check it and submit it. It's like I try to clear my brain of things so I can actually focus on what's really important to me. Because we've spoken a lot in this conversation and it's been fascinating about the mental side of football. And for you to talk in this way I think is so powerful. But I'd love to get a bit more about the physical demands of a life that you live. What are the daily behaviours from the minute you wake up to the minute you go to bed that actually are also the reason why you're sitting here as the captain of a Premier League team that's just qualified for European football?

57:27most levels of football, especially the higher end, physically you need to be maximising what you've got. Everyone's different. I'm not the fastest sprinter. If anything, I'd probably say I'm towards the bottom end of that. But I know my strength is I can run all day. I can run box to box forever and I try and make that my super strength. And then I guess it's sort of channeling, well, what do I need to be physically at my best? and one thing I always say to my family and everybody is make sleep your number one. I think you had a sleep guy on here, a woman on here and they spoke about it. And after that, I got an air conditioning unit in my room.

58:08I moved rooms so we sleep, me and Emma, in a small room towards the back of the house because we're kind of near a road so it needs to be quiet so we're away as far as we can. So yeah, we track the temperature. there's barely anything in it in this room it's just plain phones, TV? no TV phones at the other side of the room because then when the alarm goes off you get up it's not like snooze blackout curtains I used to wear the glasses and I think that was too much the caffeine and I always say make sleep the foundation of your life so if sleep is number one in this sort of, this physical period of being a Premier League footballer sleeps at the top.

58:56What's next? Nutrition. So I go sleep, nutrition. Take us into nutrition. What does a day look like for you? And what are the, how deeply focused are you on getting your nutrition right? Very, but not probably, you know, we've got a nutritionist at Forest and I'm in such a fortunate position that everything's on a plate for you at Forest. They tell you what to eat, when to eat. you can take dinner home you can I could go through my diet but you could probably guess what it is well this morning eggs and avocado on toast with a few berries lunch could just be chicken, rice and broccoli I do like a few coffees spread throughout that but sort of two o 'clock it's done because of the sleep so no coffee after two no coffee after two and are you meal prepping?

59:45are you ever just grabbing sandwiches from news agents? you know what during this period I would to be fair just because I'm on holiday and I want to switch off and I don't want to be relentless. But it makes you feel good, doesn't it? You know, and you eat well and you sleep well. But for me, when I sleep well, I'll make the right decision. But I'd even say if it was sleep, then something below it. It's sort of my mindset with it all. But you can't have the mindset without sleep. So that's why I'm like, guys, move your phones. Don't be scrolling. What time are you getting to bed and getting up?

1:00:15Oh, yeah, so that's really consistent. so that's sort of like in bed 10 sleep for half 10 wake up 8 8 30 that's like pretty routine 10 hours a night but when you dream of you know when i had the whoop so i i usually wear a whoop and stuff i wear a whoop every night to sleep um this is like the obsession you know i'm like whoop i need to and i'd look to the sleep and then i'd be waking up in the night and it's obviously from the caffeine and just having that relentless self-improvement of why am I waking up so much and like really getting into the detail. And what about your relationship with Emma?

1:00:55You said you've been with her for 13 years. She's been on this adventure with you. Tell us a little bit about that relationship. What does she offer you that you feel is so special? I think it's just so strong and it's helped me with my career so much with Emma because as I said I'm so so intense and when I come home it's sort of like I could be thinking off you know Nuno saying I'm not playing tomorrow but as soon as I walk through that door there's no questions with football it's it's like if you need to take the bins out and it's like oh right okay yeah take the bins out or uh if you got your mama mother's day card and it's been like that forever and will continue to be like that and it sort of makes me think oh yeah I need to it makes me stop thinking in that in that process of so she kind of ground you yeah totally yeah completely and has there been a moment or a piece of advice she's offered you that has been invaluable she does actually say some things where I think that's so true.

1:02:01it's probably just to I sometimes ask her questions might be about team talks or might be about something and sometimes she'll just say well just be yourself don't try and be this probably coming on this podcast she's like Ryan you love talking about football don't overthink it just go with it you're a great talker or I'd be planning too much and then you come a bit robotic and just like the little like yeah you're right and I was like yeah yeah wow I think it's brilliant is there anything else you'd like to call out apart from those amazing women in your life that have been great for you I mean there was a period where you had Roy Keane as an assistant at Forest wasn't there yeah how was that so Martin O 'Neill and Roy Keane gave me my debut at Forest they as a young lad wasn't sure whether I was going to go out on loan I was desperate to go out on loan because I sort of had the first six months of that season not doing anything under Aitor Karenka and almost went to Portsmouth, went down and watched Portsmouth.

1:03:04I thought, yeah, this looks amazing, passionate fan base. And then they had me training with the first team and stuff and they put me right back, left back, centre back, just wherever I'd fit in. And I remember Martin and Roy were just like, yeah, I love your attitude. And I think they saw that and we weren't doing so well at the time. We were doing okay and he just stuck me in at Brentford at home and got mad at the match and yeah, it just took off from there. What did you learn from Roy? You know what? He was very quiet at Forest but he just had a ruthless streak in him where you just didn't want to cross him.

1:03:45There's a couple of occasions where so we do like mini games and stuff and the losing team would have to do press-ups and I was luckily on the winning team so I didn't have to do the press-ups. so like right 20 press-ups fine came in the next day we all walked out of a train and roy just had a look on his face and just looked super pissed off basically right and we were all one talking to anybody everyone everyone came around and um he started reading out names he was like you lot you didn't do the press-ups you only did so he's like pelle you did uh and we were all like oh my God, he's looked back at the footage and seen how many press-ups people were doing.

1:04:29And I can't remember. So he said he's wearing press-ups. Brilliant. After training, watch the footage and counted how many press-ups each player's done. And I was just buzzing. And what was the punishment? I don't know. But he was so ruthless. Him and Martin were just super, super ruthless, which suited me because I was just... So was he about tiny details? I don't know, like turning up on time and eating. Oh, yeah, that stuff was an absolute non-negotiable. I remember, actually, they'd just signed, and I used to go for naps every afternoon, and I must have not set my alarm or something, and I've woke up, and the fear that...

1:05:12Yeah, because I obviously not even made an appearance for them, and I was thinking, and luckily I had time to get in, and I just remember thinking, that was my forest career right there in that moment. yeah so could I speak to you about like the experiences of going to Barrow and teams like that on loan because it's often felt that when you go from a club like Forest to a team like Barrow that you'll get the move because of your reputation but it's and then it's on you your attitude to go into maybe like some of these footballing backwaters how did you process that to get the most out of the experience?

1:05:49yeah you know what I was so they were looking for a loan move for me I'd just become a first year pro but I'd played 23's games and stuff and my agent was upstairs in my apartment in Nottingham and he said we've got a loan move for you we've got Barrow in the National League and I was quite humble and I genuinely was like I'll be honest I haven't actually heard of them are they a local team and he's like no they're about four hours away but don't worry you're training in Manchester which is only two hours away and I was like I was sort of like, well, is that sort of my only option? And he said, yeah, that's all you've got.

1:06:27So I was like, all right, yeah, let's go for it. And I went up with one of the lads who commuted from Nottingham, which was really helpful. And I was in my full, we had this like fluorescent purple training kit, you know, forest training kit, tracksuit bottoms and all sorts. And I turned up at the training ground, which was basically a college with a gym. and Paul Cox, the manager who was amazing for me at the time, just the perfect guy who I needed at the time, was in the car park, said, Ryan, nice to meet you. He was like, you won't be training in that, mate. The lads will hammer you if you're training in that.

1:07:05I've got a spare kit in the back of my car. So he gets out his XXL Giacomo T-shirt and shorts and I'm sort of like walking into the gym and it's right down there. and just humbled me straight away. Why was he the right man for you? He just opened my eyes to what it's like, what most of football is really like. It's playing for your mortgages. You know, the lads, and I thought I'd boss it, and the lads were really good players. I was thinking, wow, you're really good players. You could play at a higher level. And I was thinking, wow, if I've got to get in the team here, how good do I have to be to play in the Premier League?

1:07:46and it just gave me that, wow, how much do I want it really? And have you had a moment, like I'll give you a few examples, like Dan Byrne told us that he felt he had to play 100 games as a professional before he could call himself a professional footballer. Holly Watkins described that it took him two seasons before he felt he was a Premier League footballer. Have you had a moment where you finally felt you belonged to be a captain of a Premier League club? I don't think there was a moment it happened I just feel like I've built like you said about the confidence the experience builds the confidence I haven't really thought about it like that and it's so true I've just built that confidence and I've got to a point where I'm like what can't I achieve I've got no ceiling now what can I do whereas I'd always ceiling myself and yeah I feel like that's I don't really want to ever think about that because I just want to keep going and when I'm a bit older and I finish then I'll reflect of where I've got to.

1:08:53And what about playing for England? Because that's obviously the next level for you. Yeah, that's my ultimate. So if I could go back and change what the tutor told me it would be play for England. And yeah, I feel like I've got that, I've just got that drive and I'll just work out a way of doing it, what I need to do. And I've got a plan, I've just got to go and execute it, really. Do you believe you will play for England? Yeah. And how important is it to believe that? Yeah, like I've said so many times, if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe it. That's the first thing.

1:09:30And I feel like at every single level, I've always been, that's my ceiling. I went to League Two and it's just not quite good enough. you know League One and then started for Forest had some good games and then I had maybe 50 games where I just I was good but Forest is my you know mid-table championship is my ceiling and then every time I broke through that barrier I'm just like there's no ceiling it's just the ceiling you put in your head and that's for anybody as well So what do you need to do to play for your country? I need to be the best player for Forest and that's all I'm thinking about be the best player for Forest.

1:10:10I need to start 38 games next season. And if I do that, I give myself a chance. But there's no point thinking about anything. You know, you can strip that back. I need to start the first game of the season. And that's my process. But I sort of need to know that I need to be the best player for Nottingham Forest before anything else. And have you had any conversations with Thomas Tuchel? No, I haven't, no. One day? One day. have you thought though about that first pre-match team talk under the lights at the city ground in european competition you know what i haven't yet to be fair have you not no i haven't dreamed i haven't no probably because i'm a tad disappointed it's not for the champions league um but because it hurts i almost want it to hurt i almost want to feel hurt like i almost I find it really difficult but I definitely probably play better when I've got that little bit of like you doubted me I'm going to prove you wrong and I can't always find it before games but you know I feel like sometimes you've got to have things that fire you up and that reminds me of like the stories of Michael Jordan where he'd invent grudges he'd make up that somebody liked him just so he could then give himself a narrative and Michael Schumacher and Max Verstappen it's an old trick to light a fire on yourself if it isn't lit there already I felt that against Chelsea last game of the season I had this fire so when I came on I was like this is going to happen and obviously it didn't but I just remember thinking if I could find that every game At what moment in that game against Chelsea did you start to think this isn't going to happen?

1:11:54I didn't to be fair I've got this like I think it's slightly like deluded that you know it's always going to be perfect maybe because it helps with my anxiety before the game I don't really know but you know I always say to the lads like for example before promotion there's a good period of time after the semi-final of the playoffs to the final there's like maybe 10-12 days and I was just absolutely sure we were going to win and I don't know if it was my brain protecting itself because it didn't even want to think about losing or I sort of subconsciously knew if I could tell everybody all my family all the teammates constantly now we're going to win imagine how good it's going to be in the Premier League it's going to be amazing you know I picked up a new car for Emma and the guy was a Leicester fan he said oh you're looking forward to the game and I just remember saying like oh yeah we're going to win though like we're going to be in the Premier League next year for sure and looking back now I'm thinking bloody hell the amount of people I was saying yeah we're definitely going to do it I feel like you are like I said at the start you are what you tell yourself yeah but again there's parallels here we recently sat down with John Legend you know this is a man that changed his name to Legend you know what I mean he was like if I say that I've now got to live up to it I've got to be he won a competition at 15 where he said he was going to become a spokesman for young black boys in America and it's like no no if I speak it I have to honour it I then have to be true and it sounds like there's a pattern for you of sat in that tutor's classroom telling them you're going to play in the Premier League you're now telling us that you're going to play for England I think there's something really powerful about what you're doing Ryan why though why am I why why why am I is it accountability am I making myself accountable I think there's something about that but there's also something about psychological priming.

1:13:51You're priming yourself. You're identifying where you're going to go and now you're living up to it. You said it yourself that the behaviours that you demonstrated to be a Premier League footballer were different from the guys that were maybe taking shortcuts. You also know, because you've been around the game though for long enough, there are many players playing football with more talent than you, leagues below you. You know it's about those small, those almost insignificant details. If you can focus on those, then you can make a difference in your career. And one of those is believing good things are going to happen.

1:14:24It comes back to the age old quote, if you think you can't, you won't. If you think you can, you still might not. But you know what I mean? A damn sight closer to making it happen. Yeah, I totally agree. It's focusing on them details and trying to, you know, everyone's different, aren't they? And that's probably one of my weaknesses is I speak to people and I'm like, why are you not as motivated as me? Why do you not think like me? And probably something I need to improve on is everyone has a different way of thinking. People aren't as quick to, people need more time or whatever. Everyone's different, but it's finding your superpowers, your super strengths, I guess.

1:15:05It can be a hard way to live sometimes. One of my failings is that I see some of the work other people do in various areas that I'm involved in and I almost feel like I'm bubbling inside with frustration and anger that it isn't how I would have done it or the level I would have done it or an oversight or a tiny... And sometimes I have to remind myself not to be so harsh on people who've made a small oversight. Just, okay, these things happen. And also sometimes, I don't know whether you feel the same, whether you look at people that are just chilled out, like it's easy over for them. And you think, man, sometimes I am actually jealous of those people that just flow through their football career and it's easy.

1:15:41And they still play well and they start every week and they're not thinking and overthinking and they're still grabbing a McDonald's on the way home, you know? I totally agree, yeah. I do think that. And my cousin, my oldest cousin, Aaron, is just that. He's the most laid-back guy you'll ever meet. He's like an anomaly in the family. Like, we just went on holiday and he's out fishing. He's totally different, but he's so chilled out. I'm like, Aaron, do you not want to go and achieve? And he's like, no. And he's totally happy with that. He works at my auntie's salon and gets his wage. He's always had the same wage.

1:16:17He doesn't want to push for more clients. He's just so laid back. But it makes me think, what a life. Maybe I should do that. I could never. How happy are you? I'm happy when I'm improving. Okay, so here's the interesting thing. Who's the high performer then? You, where you're only happy when you're improving and you put yourself through the ringer all the time and you hold yourself to the highest possible standards sometimes don't meet them and berate yourself and beat yourself up and you're still sitting here frustrated weeks after not making the Champions League despite all the incredible things that you and your team did this season or Aaron who goes to work helps out his auntie he's chilled he's happy he gets his pay back he hangs up with his friends who's the high performer?

1:17:03Aaron maybe I'd be miserable I would be miserable if I not miserable I would just be lack no motivation. I wouldn't want to do anything if I wasn't seeking more. Yeah, but I think that's the important thing. I don't think it's a binary. It's you or Aaron. It's like, it's on his terms. And that's the point. High performance is subjective to individuals. He is happy, right? So he is in many ways the ultimate high performer. But you are scrapping and fighting and delving deep for every tiny little thing you've got to make yourself better at where you're at. That also, in so many people's books, is absolutely high performance.

1:17:39and also should be lauded and applauded. Right, let's do it then. Quick fire questions. Go on.

1:17:47The three non-negotiable behaviours that mean the most to you. Three non-negotiables. Work. Be the hardest working in the room. I think be polite. Be a good person. Yeah. And to me, be a winner. Brilliant. if you could go back to one moment of your life what would it be and why? another one I thought about but I just cannot get away from the moment the ref blew the whistle to get the club back to the Premier League I remember Bree Samba went off he hurt his quad and I turned to the referee and I said Ethan Horvath came on so change of goalkeeper sort of wasting time I don't know if it was Breeze's antics or what, but I turned to the ref and said, ref, how long left?

1:18:42And he said, it's done. As soon as he kicks his boy, it's done. And I just remember the goosebumps. I remember sort of like just having a quick look at the wall of red at Wembley when he blew that whistle. Just that feeling was just, if I could just bottle that feeling, and like loads of footballers have, would probably speak about just that one feeling, maybe the first euphoric moment in any sportsman. euphoric moment in their career that was that was mine. Why is that the moment you revisit? I think I said to myself obviously a lot of anxiety a lot of nerves going into the final just because how much it meant to so many people obviously they spoke about Nottingham Forest massive club in the championship for so many years and I just said to myself look because I'm a real overthinker like I really I really think about things deeply and I said whatever happens today win lose or draw just be really present so I just was so present the whole day I just remember everything the changing rooms where I sat you know the program the warm-up you know I just remember everything what I had for pre-match and actually the hotel room there I was having a shower maybe 20-30 minutes before the meeting and I went to move the head and the head fell off and the water came sprouting out went all over my tracksuit just i remember every everything and yeah just being so present when i can like retell it exactly how how it happened what's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received and why i'd probably say just be authentically yourself just be you from chris it could have been from chris i don't know that's the sort of thing he'd say to be honest that's what he was saying to me yesterday just be authentically you and if you could go back and have a conversation with a 15 year old ryan what piece of advice would you offer him look at yourself before blaming others what does high performance look like for you how would you describe high performance for me high performance is whatever your goal whatever you're going for just go for it with everything you've got and just leave no stone unturned have you left anything on the table no how does it make you feel when you answer that good fulfilled the final question what do you believe to be the golden rule for living a high performance life that you'd like to leave people thinking about seek self-improvement ryan thank you so much what a brilliant fascinating conversation you know what i was thinking you're such a deep thinker right you're so kind of in the weeds of life and trying to find high performance I think the magic of Nuno for you has been someone coming in and almost going stop overthinking like let it be probably yeah he's not going into incredible detail about stuff he's just saying just be you just play your game do your thing yeah I think it's been valuable for you yeah I agree but also just because people tell you that it's hard work focusing on tiny details look where it's taken you so don't stop yeah pleasure I've thoroughly enjoyed it I've learnt things as we've spoke oh mate thank you it's been one of my favourite conversations we've ever had on air really honestly you've been amazing thank you for doing so much preparation these are the sort of conversations we need to have with top flight footballers 100 % because I just think you're so misrepresented like football commentary and punditry is getting so full of opinion and like the more aggressive the opinion the better because it does better numbers on social yeah exactly Right.

1:22:26I mean, it happened with you and your owner this season, didn't it? It's like, stop and understand. Yeah. If you actually understood him, you'd... But, yeah, that's why I try and go with the phone. But it's hard, yeah. But I love your advice about having a really tight in the circle of... Yeah. If they tell you, you listen. Yeah. So, clearly, as a high-performance superfan, would you mind sharing a few of the episodes you've listened to and why they made such a difference for you? yeah so i can only recall like certain little parts of of each one but the one with the guy with the top restaurant will good era yeah just you know just finding in such a incredibly competitive industry just trying to be the difference and like you know you need that difference in in business in football you know when it's fine fine margins you need that and it just makes me think of how I could do that.

1:23:26The Sarah Davies podcast where she just gave me a different perspective on, maybe she talked about imposter syndrome and stuff and maybe a woman going into business she was speaking about as well and how you just have to be super headstrong. Actually, another thing I remember from that podcast is when she spoke about going into Dragon's Den and she thought she had to be trying to be someone different and yeah I think that's where I got the authentically yourself I think that was probably from her you know you said was it Chris and I was thinking I don't think it was but I think it was from her from Sarah obviously you've got massive massive names on who come on like Gordon Ramsay and probably things that I genuinely can't remember but it's just gone into my subconscious and I try and learn from there all the footballers Mikel Antonio came on maybe a year or two ago and he was at Forest so he was speaking about a few things and I just I remember him thinking oh I'd love to you know go on the podcast and speak and yeah hopefully it's helped a few people and I'm glad that you know really what you're saying is that high performance is the reason Forest made it into you yeah I mean let's just be absolutely clear about that please everybody

1:24:45Damien Jake That was a really fascinating insight into someone who obviously thinks in the deepest and most complex details about every tiny part of his life to try and be the best footballer that he can be. But at the same time as those kind of hard skills and holding himself to account, you also just get this lovely insight into the way that his brain works. and I really love people to understand that as well as coming in and talking in the way that he did, he turned up on his own, he got on the train, didn't need a car, he was humble, he was friendly to all the team. He just is like, in the nicest possible way, I mean this, he's the most normal guy that you could ever meet.

1:25:25You know, if you bumped into him, you wouldn't go, oh, that guy's a Premier League captain, striving to be the very best he can in every area of his life. And I think it's lovely when you meet high performers who truly are high performers, but they have got to that point by not believing they're high performers. And I think that's what keeps them humble. And he is, I loved it. Yeah, there's a term they sometimes use, I've heard coaches use it, talk about glue players. These are players that just connect the dressing room. And he, to me, he didn't acknowledge that as a superpower, but he's a guy that just brings people with you.

1:25:57I like the vulnerability when he said, look, I really struggle with speaking. I mean, how often do we assume a captain of a Premier League club is arrogant, confident, full of their own self-importance, smug, conceited. Those are the kinds of messages we put out about the people that are lucky enough to play Premier League football in this country. This guy's just sat in front of us and said, I'm wrapped with self-doubt when I talk to my teammates. I have to go and see a psychologist to be able to be better at public speaking. Those are the people that are playing football in this country. And I really hope that conversations like this start to change the narrative around our footballers.

1:26:31I think pundits have a huge responsibility to stop just saying things that they know might be damaging to a footballer but they're going to get great numbers you know i think we saw it around the departure of trent alexander arnold from liverpool i think the way that some pundits were talking about that it's almost like they've never played football before it's like there's it's like there's not a human being behind that decision so i think for ryan to come in here to sit down with us and show the human being behind a footballer i think he's powerful and really valuable and i also love the fact that he loves the podcast it's never a bad thing right well it's not and but i think let's tell people genuinely that's really humbling for us that you know we do this and the fact that people like ryan that are operating at the very tip of high performance are listening and finding value in it how humbling's that then hopefully that that's a good indication that this is for everybody this podcast we wanted everybody to take it and apply it in their own life wherever you are whatever you're doing good man thanks way of course huge thanks to ryan for sharing so much with us on today's show if you want to get even more from high performance you can download the high performance app where you can get exclusive episodes before anybody else and so much more please let me remind you one more time if you can just hit follow it transforms the reach that this show has and helps us bring you even more incredible guests like ryan ryan honestly on behalf of myself damien and the whole team we love meeting you thank you so much for listening to the show thanks for coming on here and sharing so much with us and i hope that you at home were inspired by the messages that ryan had to share we've spoken to so many footballers on this show so check out the back catalogue and find an episode that you love thanks for joining us

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