Owen Hargreaves: England's Forgotten Legend Reveals What It Took to Silence Critics and Survive Sir Alex (E347)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. the England dog said it off. And I remember he said to me, he said, I'm not sure you're ever going to play again. I just felt like life had left my body. That is the distinctive voice of Owen Hargreaves, the Canadian-born midfielder who conquered Europe with Bayern Munich and Manchester United, changed opinions when he was England's player of the tournament at the World Cup in 2006, and of course then had his career cruelly robbed from him due to injury. You know, most football fans know all of those things, but I think what they don't really know is that Owen walked into a dressing room full of megastars as a teenager at Bayern Munich learning from the best despite not speaking a word of German thousands of miles from home they don't know that despite years of sacrifice and struggle and success including winning the Champions League he was booed by the press when England announced he was in their World Cup squad I mean there were some breathtaking moments in this conversation actually Damien.

1:25Definitely jake but owen's eloquent is inspiring and he's incredibly open i mean the way he was treated took my breath away yet he used that to his advantage by employing tools that he shares freely with us here about how to keep his focus and in his case how he became england's best player that summer in a team of megastars themselves and talking of superstars his stories about diego maradona ronaldo and luis figo are absolutely brilliant listen out for them Yeah, I love those. We also touch, of course, on how it did all fall apart so fast and so painfully as injuries ended his career. Yet that too holds lessons for all of us, how we can all learn to rebuild after setbacks.

2:08This is a really rare insight into the mental and physical toll of elite sports, far beyond the trophies and the headlines, and I honestly think you're going to love this. Before we start, though, please remember to hit the follow button to keep up to date with the latest episodes from High Performance. Honestly, it makes such a difference. Following us grows our show and helps us attract the biggest names to High Performance. Right, let's do it, and welcome my mate, Owen Hargreaves.

2:38Well, Owen, welcome to High Performance. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming on the show. There's so many young people grow up dreaming of being a professional soccer player. Why did you manage to turn that dream into a reality, do you think? Do you know what? I never thought that would be a reality, not even for a second. I played more basketball than I did football as a kid. But because my dad was English, we played football. And I was the youngest of three boys, so we didn't have a choice. You just did what your dad and your older brothers did. So my dad was quite good. You know, he was like a played semi-fessional in Canada.

3:11And then, yeah, I was just always kind of pitch side, you know. And I think I was very lucky that I came from a football family. My dad could play. My older brother probably could have been a permanent player from talent-wise, but maybe lacked a few of the other attributes necessary. And I think I got to see that play against my older brothers. and as your older brothers do, they kind of kick the life out of you, don't they? And you have to learn to be tough and fight and I just think that helped me being in a football family, being the youngest and also watching my brother maybe not do everything as he could have at best.

3:51So I think I was really lucky with kind of all those variables. It's interesting the lessons from your brother. What did he not do that you saw and thought my story needs to look different? Well, as you have two other brothers, say it's normal, they have house parties, don't they? Parents are leaving and they have a house party and all their mates will be there. They're just doing normal kids stuff. But I remember I was quite young in and around it and obviously I would just have to be there because my parents were out. And I remember thinking, I didn't really understand it, why everybody was drinking and all that.

4:25And I think my brother probably should have made it. He bolted off him on a contract when he went over on trial and they wanted to stay. My dad made him go back home, finish his last year of school and then he ended up tearing his ACL. But I think at that time, he was kind of going up and his friends were really good players too. But because he was going up, it's like almost, they didn't want him to succeed. So they would start to go out and do stuff and he didn't say no. He kind of still did that. And then it's a very, it's a very fine line, I think. And I kind of slow that and thought, right, I remember my dad, when I was a young kid, I came home from school one day and he put an article on my bed, printed it out.

5:03And it was about Dennis Beckham kind of, you know, coming into Arsenal and kind of that whole culture. It was still kind of the English one with, you know, drinking and stuff. And about discipline and kind of living the right way and training and standards. And he said he used to, I remember he used to smell kind of alcohol on people's best still. And he would take it out of them in training, Dennis. And I just remember like reading that and thinking, right, if you're going to do it, do it properly. So I was probably fortunate that I had, like my dad was kind of, he wouldn't do anything other than just leave it there, whether you read it or not.

5:40But you did. Yeah, I did, yeah. And I think that, again, I had never dreamed I'd be a football player ever. I went on trial at Bayern. I didn't know who Bayern Munich was. And I remember thinking I'm way out of my depth probably here. Canadian kid, they were all asking me if I lived in an igloo when I got there. That day? Yeah, yeah. They didn't know anything about a Canadian kid, did they? And they were all German national players. And I remember thinking, I'm probably in trouble here. And I remember the ball dropped. And if there were like two or three minutes, I thought, hmm, I think I'll be all right here.

6:13And I think I had probably had four or five of those moments in my whole career where I always thought, yeah, it's probably going to be too much for me this. And once you overcome it, it's like, hmm, I wonder what else I could do. So I never really, I stopped making plans. I started making goals because I would kind of beat them quite quickly. And then I just thought, right, I tried to make it as hard as myself as I could to see if I could fail in a way. Because I started to learn that you can achieve a lot more than you probably ever imagined and you've got to back yourself. So what do you mean when you say you made it harder for yourself?

6:54Well, not in a... So when I came through at Bind, I was very fortunate. my first year we won the league in the Champions League. And being Canadian-born, I probably always thought I'd play for Canada. But my mom was Welsh, my dad was English, and I lived in Germany. So I had all these national teams call me to play for them because all of a sudden you just appear. And so Wales wanted me to play. Mark Hughes called me when I was a member in the Bayern Munich dressing because he was an ex-Biom Munich player. And I had to make a choice. And the hardest one was England, obviously, because I had the best group of players.

7:27and everybody said, you're crazy, you're never going to play. And I just thought, well, let's just see where the chips fall. And obviously, as a young boy, the one thing you want to do is make your dad proud. And my dad is a super proud Englishman, even though he worked in Canada from 20-odd years old. He was, you know, his name's on your shirt, and he's English, so I just thought, right, let's go with England, you know, because it was the hardest. But again, after making the jump from Canada to Germany, I thought, right, What could go wrong? Even if I play once, you know, it would be more than I would have ever dreamed.

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9:46You've made that jump from Canada to Germany sound really effortless. and doubtlessly it wasn't. Like, how did it come about even, a boy from Calgary getting offered a child to go to Munich? Well, I think, again, I had a team in Canada. There's a lot of talented kids in Canada because all the families are from all around the world. You know, there's the British and there's the South Americans, the Spanish, Italian, and all the kids play football because they love it. You know, Canada's one of the best countries in the world at ice hockey. But basically, participation-wise, I think more kids play football or soccer at a young age.

10:23The problem is when they get to teenager age, there's more stuff for them to do. So I think at that age, they kind of maybe tell them to get lost. But I had this coach. He came from Germany. His name is Thomas Niendorf. And he was from East Germany. When the wall went down, he came over to Canada. I think he stumbled upon my team, who was probably one of the better ones in the city. Calgary is quite a big city, you know, over a million plus people. and he saw me I think I was 12 or 13 he said oh you're to my daddy he's talented if he continues to grow because I was tiny I'll call some friends in Germany and sure enough that's exactly what happened he called one of his best mates Hal Popper who was a youth coach at Bayern Munich I mean he probably wouldn't be able to do it now with kind of the lulls and stuff but I remember staying with him when I went on trial at Bayern and then they had never taken somebody from that far I remember I was 15, I think.

11:20And they watched me and said, yeah, and we'll take you. And then, but there was no guarantees. I mean, I think they paid me for, I have a flight home at Christmas, flight home in the summer. And I think at the time I was on 700 DMARCs, which was probably like 250 euros. Right. A month. A month. So yeah. And then you had to, you know, find like a meal cooked for yourself and stuff. I lived on the training ground. so it was you know growing up in Canada I didn't really play football that much you know because there's so much other stuff to do again I played more basketball but to have the opportunity to do that every day after watching my dad and my brother I just thought yeah let's you know let's give this a go So can we go back to the fact that you didn't play football that much like in his book David Epstein he wrote a book called Range which is about how people achieve high performance he speaks about the benefits of doing lots of other different sports rather than just focusing singularly on one activity at a young age what do you feel those other sports you did whether it was basketball or ice hockey or some of the other things that were open to you in Canada give you that actually benefited you when you did decide to focus that's a good question I mean I think Canada's very seasonal so I mean we had winters it's minus 20 minus 30 so we'd come home drop a backpack off and go straight to the ice ring just play hockey you know We only came home to eat, really.

12:46We were just outside all the time. So in the summer, you're playing tennis at school. I was on the volleyball team, basketball team, badminton team, literally everything. And I think they all helped. Basketball was the one I loved the most. That's why I wore 23 at Bayern Munich. Because growing up in Canada, the time difference to here is, what, seven, eight hours. So I couldn't watch the Premier League because it was on at five, six in the morning. My dad would get up and watch it, but I didn't. So my hero was Michael Jordan because that was on at the time. and he was the number one athlete. So I just loved basketball.

13:19And I used to just play all the time. And I played more, literally more than football. And I probably wanted to be an NBA player. But obviously I was vertically challenged and not very good. But actually playing point guard for my high school team was one of my favorite things because I wasn't a great shooter, but I was a very good athlete and I was very explosive. So I had to compete really hard, even more so than I did in football. because football was, I think, because of my dad and my brother, it was in the genes. My son has it. You know, it's in there somehow. And having to fight in basketball against guys who are much bigger than me really brought out like a more competitiveness in me.

13:57So when I could translate that to football, especially when I went to Bayern and it got a lot harder and all the guys were better, I was very lucky probably genetically, you know, from being quick and explosive and all that stuff. But actually when I got into a super competitive environment, I didn't realize that was probably my best attribute. So I could outperform my ability or outperform people more talented than me in a game. And once I learned that, then I think I became a better player, if that makes sense. Because I think everybody can play at our level. But the best ones, I think they have it here, head and heart.

14:38And it's about competition in the end. and once I got into a competitive environment, I kind of, I really enjoyed the harder it got. So was there any opportunity for you to be fearful, nervous, have imposter syndrome, have doubt when as a 15-year-old you leave like the safe nest of life in Canada to go to Germany on your own? Well, the beautiful thing, you know, for anybody that has kids, you know that kids think they know everything and ignorance is bliss, right? So you think, oh, I'll go over there and play and you don't have any doubt. If you would ask any academy players now in any team around the world, you go in at 14, 15, you ask, you know, percentage-wise, what, 1 % are going to make it?

15:18If you ask them all the same question, are you going to be proud? I say, yeah, everyone. So, I, you know, I made the jump, but I didn't really know what was going to happen. So did you have that? If I'd have said to you at 15, would you be a professional footballer? What would you have said? It was a 0 % chance. I mean, I worked at McDonald's when I was 15. you know after school I'd go with my pants and I'd be a lot of money so I would you know I wouldn't call myself a chef but I was making the burgers but most people would say well if you don't believe it will never happen yeah but you can't believe it if it's that far away once I got once I got put in the environment and I thought hmm you know I could probably do this and then and then basically you just start to it starts to filter out the ones that can and can't that's it it's that simple and I think everybody in that environment was super talented came from all over Germany but a lot of people couldn't manage not being the best player because they were always the best player from their neighborhood from their city from their county and then you put them all in a pool but there's only one ball and everybody's got to compete and everybody's got to be unselfish and it filters it out very quickly that's why I think sometimes being the best player is actually not a blessing because it makes them and the parents a little bit entitled like I'm the best player give me the ball But actually, you've got to learn to still compete and fight and chip away.

16:41Slowly just chip away. And I quite enjoyed the fact that, you know, the competitive side of it. And you were the outsider, I imagine. Like you say, they've never done this before. They've never brought somebody from so far away. You don't speak German, I assume, when you first arrive. No. So how do you go from being the outsider to finding a place where you can fit in and eventually, hopefully, belong? But I think growing up in Canada was probably beneficial to that because everybody's a foreigner in a way. Everyone's from somewhere. If you grew up there, you don't see race, religion, or color because all your friends are from somewhere.

17:19And I think kind of, I remember going in at first, because in Germany, I like the discipline of it. You'd have to go over to the manager every morning, boss, and shake hands and make eye contact. And so the German lads, you say to me, say this to the boss. And I obviously didn't know. I thought I was saying something polite and I was literally saying the worst thing you could ever say to somebody. And I'd look over and they would all just be laying on the floor. So after a week I clocked, maybe not listen to the lads. So learning the language became quite important because they all wanted me to speak English for them so they could learn.

17:52But after about a year, I kind of learned the language and you just kind of slowly immerse yourself in it. But yeah, it was a big jump. But I think back then we didn't have much. It sounds ridiculous. I'm really old. there wasn't much internet and there was no like mobile phones or FaceTime so I couldn't remember I used to go to the phone booth you know in the corner with my calling card or it was and I did that like once once every two weeks maybe so you had to really you know find your way which I think was good because I think I do everything with my kids you know you don't even leave them anywhere whereas they know a lot more and they're a lot more stable than you think and I thought give them a bit of freedom to find their way I think is quite important too.

18:34I had a lot of scope too that I'm very fortunate that I stayed on track because it probably could have gotten the other way. Yeah but it sounds to me like you had like a highly attuned social antennae to be able to to read other people to judge a room understand how you do eventually fit in. So what are the sort of top tips that you picked up Owen about assimilating into a culture or an environment where you come in as the outsider? But that, see, you're right. I'll probably, I mean, listen to my accent. I don't know what even my mates in Canada say, what is wrong with your accent? In German, they say, what's your accent?

19:11In England, they say, what's your accent? I don't know. It's because I lived in different environments. And when you speak a different language, I think it changes things. So I never really, I've probably never fit in anywhere because actually growing up in Canada, my mom was Welsh, my dad was English. And then I moved to Germany. I was you know the Canadian kid playing in Germany and then I move over to play for England even though I'm playing in Germany and I have this accent so everyone's thinking who's this guy you know but so I think that was often used against me that I was Canadian born and your accent and all that but I think in the end if you break all that down and you just I think football's good at that if you just treat everybody the same you know whether it's your coaches whether it's CEO or whether it's somebody that's just cleaning the dressing rooms, I think is a good way of doing it.

20:05Just be yourself. If people are going to like you, cool. If they don't, that's also fine. But I'm only really worried about the people that were really close to me because I remember when I first broke into the first team, I remember we used to have like 10 ,000 people watch training because when there were school holidays, they would just all come. I remember when I got into the first team, I had this journalist who sat in the front of my car. He's like, oh, now you're in first team. You know, you got to give me your number so we can stay in touch and stuff if anything comes up. And I remember I said to him, I said, look, you know, my phone number's only for my friends and family.

20:40But I'm here every day. So if you want to chat to me or through the press office, you're more welcome to. Remember he said to me, that's a big mistake, you know. You know, because I have everybody's number and you're just going to get bad scores in the papers. And I said, well, I said, that's up to you. You know, I'm going to treat you guys all the same. I don't want to give you something and you something. I don't think that's fair. I think just being consistent with everybody is probably the easiest way. Then you don't have to put a face on or try and get something. I think we've all become very transactional.

21:11Can you do something for me? Can you do something for me? I think leaving home on my own, I didn't need anything from anyone because I had to do it on my own. And I think that was probably quite helpful. I think not trying to... I didn't plan on achieving anything. so I would just try and do it for the kind of organically so how long did it take you to go from joining Bayern as a kid to getting asked to go and train with the first team I was 16 so I played two years in the under 18s I was a year younger and then I went into the reserve team which played in league one which was amazing so you played against older pros so we didn't again so the contract I had was I think I was on 5 ,000 D-marks at the time.

21:58So it would have been like 2 ,000 euros maybe. Right. There's a bit of a play around from what you started. Oh, massive. And I thought, I'm flying here. But the, so you played every Sunday. The first team played on Saturday, you played every Sunday. It's League One. So, you know, it's a good standard. But it was a lot of kind of Eastern Europeans and tough guys, you know. And you're coming through, you're like 18 playing with these guys. And we had always had one older pro in the team. Or two maybe to kind of mentor. And I remember the guys were like, the bonus was more. So if you won four games, the match bonus was massive.

22:33So these guys, it was super competitive. And you had all these older guys kicking the life out of you because they wanted more money. And I just think it was such a cool environment because you had all these talented kids from the academy come up. And then you had all these older guys and kick the life out of you. And literally, they wanted the bonuses. So again, it filters it out. because you got to really enjoy that. Otherwise, it's not really fun if you don't appreciate the competitive side. So I did two years in the academy, one year in the reserve team, underaged. And then I went over to the first team and then I think they can just see.

23:15I remember I was at an event for Bayern last week, 100 years, 125 years for Bayern. And everybody was there, bosses and stuff. And there was two guys there, Marcus Wanzel and Hugo Saitz. They were kind of the two older guys, the mentors. And they run the academy now, which I didn't know. And they said to me, God, I never forget when you came into the team. And I said, why? He said, you wouldn't take no for an answer. And he said, if you didn't make it, nobody was going to make it. And there's a Michael Vizinger, his name is now, he runs the academy at Nuremberg. He said, when you came into the first team, I always say to the young boys now, don't take no for an answer.

23:51Don't let them send you back. and I think when I made that transition into the first team you don't think you're going to make it because nobody's done that jump probably for I think before me seven or eight years and again the older guys you know they're just kicking lumps out of you and very much so in Germany there was a hierarchy of you know cones, balls, open doors do everything for the older guys which I think is great but I remember I was just coming through and I was training really well and the older guys were getting annoyed they kick me and pick me back up kick me, pick me back up and I remember all my hits probably gave me the best piece of advice I ever got from my coach he said all the older guys had gone in I was getting the cones and he said he said oh and you're trying to get it he said I can't help you anymore because I've got to be loyal to the older guys but he said when you come on the pitch you chase everyone and you know you get after them but when it finishes you'll be a gentleman you open doors and cables you keep doing what you're doing you'll be just fine he said I can't help you anymore and from that day on every time I went on the pitch I hunted down everyone and eventually they accept you if you don't you know you don't give any back toll and you you know you again stay consistent every day compete compete compete I remember Effenberg who was our leader at the time our best player and we were about to get on the plane it was about 8 months into my first year and he said to me and I said oh no you go first and he went no no you go first you're going to be my successor but basically it said to me you're cool now you know but again you got to earn that you know if I you see I think a lot of young guys now they want it quickly or everybody wants it quick and again it's very transactional but you got to earn it if you earn it the guys everybody will I think will will be happily facilitated but I remember Omar saying to me if I take you somebody's losing their job which is true right you don't think of that but so obviously the other guys are going to put up a fight but I think as long as you do it respectfully, I think you earn the trust of the team, which is the most important thing.

25:54So you were coming into a club, though, that had sort of been haunted by this nickname of FC Hollywood, where it was like big egos, big stars, and they'd gone through the trauma of losing the Champions League to Manchester United in 99. Yeah. So you were coming into a club with scars, egos, things like that. Who was it who did take you under the wing eventually and sort of show you how to behave like a professional, how to conduct yourself. I know, I already had that. Right. I already had that. But I watched everyone. I watched the way they sat on the bus. I watched the way we prepared. I watched going to the game.

26:29Some guys had music. The boys in the back, the lively ones playing cards, like the naughty kids on the bus. You had the foreign boys listening to music. And I think if you just watch and absorb, you can learn a lot. And then eventually you think, wow, he's doing really well. He has success. maybe him not as much but eventually you've got to find your way and so for me I was more of a music person I used to like just even on the coach and then before the game I'd like to have music I just think even though I'm pretty relaxed I would like music something with a beat it would get me focused I think but again all that stuff is trial and error you're finding your way so many athletes are really superstitious you know you think you see you watch the Premier League you'll see people walk out and then jump over the line.

27:19I think Rio used to do it. Lots of guys do it. And they're superstitions and there's no right or wrong but I remember watching everyone's superstitions thinking I'm going to try and not give myself any. Because I just think that's not going to help me play better. Really. It can't really. So I kind of played with stuff and then I just learned to just find my own path. And when you were calling home were you still asking your dad for advice and help? No, no. He'd tell me stuff. He'd write stuff down for me. But again, I left home quite young. I had to find my own way. And if you pay attention enough to people, your coaches and teammates, they'll tell you what path you're on or not.

28:02So for me, I paid attention to myself enough. I would critique myself. The only regret I probably have from my career, maybe I don't think I enjoyed it enough because I was so focused on the process and trophies and all that come with being on a good team. But actually, and when you're in the process, I don't think you can enjoy it as much because you're just so focused on everything. And I think if I would have enjoyed it more, I wouldn't have been as successful because I wouldn't have stayed focused on the process. apart from Effenberg who were the other leaders and what did you learn from them everyone we had everyone I remember my first game for the first team wasn't actually an official game it was Lothar Mateus' testimonial and Diego Maradona played yeah and I remember and it was like Olympic Stadium remember Olympic Stadium from 70 Olympics in Mason Stadium and Germany against Bayern and Lothar knew Diego so he was going to come play and it was like five minutes before a kickoff 70 ,000 74 ,000 Lothar's one of the greatest ever German players and I ended up I ended up being in the game and I remember so we're all waiting for Diego and he's not there it's like five minutes before a kickoff so Obmar Hidford says well somebody else is going to play and bear in mind the Germans are really punctual punctual right so he's like mad late anyway anyway he strolls in and puts his kit on doesn't even tie his boots somebody gets him an espresso and he's juggling this ball out up the steps onto the pitch and I remember just looking at him thinking wow like he just didn't not that he didn't care but he was just so at ease and then you had the Germans who were like can't believe he's late do you know what I mean but it was Diego Maradona and the South Americans were like wow I can't believe Diego's here and he played he just played amazing it was just it was such a cool that was literally my first experience so then kind of going into the first could you believe it but going into the first team, everybody was, we had the best left back in Robichenta Lizorazu.

30:11He was an incredible pro. He used to do stretch for like an hour after. And so I watched him and then he used to teach me. So I used to stretch then for an hour every day, every evening. When I finished dinner, I used to stretch for an hour, do sit-ups and push-ups. And there's so many cool guys that taught me so much. You know, I think we're all very lucky, you know, whether parents-wise or coaches, but having a mentor, I think is priceless. you know for whatever you're going to do in your life find somebody you want to learn from and in a football team there's so many you just got to pick one you want to so it wasn't really one guy you didn't ask Diego I don't think he would have helped me but again he was just this like messy like Yamal you know they have this gift this talent I remember just staring at him a lot looking at him thinking no yeah I probably did but again I was so focused on the game Jake I was coming through I wasn't like this wasn't friendly for me you know what I mean like if I was playing I was all in and what was Mateus like?

31:17amazing amazing again he's probably one of the most talented players I think ever you know played multiple positions could do everything but he was literally just leaving as I came in right so you hear the stories from the guys but it was Effenberg, Oliver Kahn. I mean, you didn't mess about with Oli. At the time, he was probably the best goalkeeper in the world. Well, he was. He got second in the Ballon d 'Or to Ronaldo, didn't he, in 2002 when they lost in the final. And even in training, everybody does stuff like casual and shooting stuff. You didn't do that with Oli. Because if you say you try and chip him, he would come out and go mad.

31:57And he'd say, you're not going to do that in the game, are you? You don't have the coaching in the game, do you? So do it properly in training. So you had that every day, whether it's Effenberg. You didn't really take the piss. What was Otmar like as a manager? Best. See, if I coach, I'd coach like him. No shouting, no yelling, just facts. And I think that's way more powerful than somebody shouting at me, telling me how useless you are. I think people, especially young kids, nobody wants to hear that anymore. But I think that's how it was, right? with teachers or authority or parents. And I think it's evolved now, whereas even with your kids, you don't really can.

32:39You don't shout at your kids. You'd say, why don't you try this? Or why don't you try that? And I think it's so much more powerful. And I think Omar, because he used to be an ex-teacher, he was so calm in amongst, and you're right, we were called FC Hollywood because we did fistfights in training because it was so competitive. And I think deep down, he probably really enjoyed that because it showed how much we cared. But he kind of stayed out of it. And again, he was very level with us, treated us with respect. And he didn't shout or yell because in the end, we're handpicked by him. So he knew who he picked and they were good lads.

33:19Okay, they were competitive and probably brutal at times. But we also had to figure it out ourselves. And I like the fact that we had a leader that wasn't, Sven was the same, didn't shout and yell. I think that's better than somebody you know shouting at me. It doesn't work. After four or five times you're like oh he's shouting again. Leave him. I know you weren't there for that Champions League final in 99. I was. I was in the stadium. But you weren't in the team No, no, no. I was with the under 18s. We were going to a tournament in Rotterdam. I remember I was up in the nosebleeds with the tracksuit on and Bayern dominated.

33:56Should have won. and I remember we all lost our voice because we were just shouting so much and I remember we all sat there after the game the ending was just one of the craziest endings ever and Teddy Shanger and Ole Gunnar were two amazing goals and I remember we all just sat there stunned just like shock and never ever dreaming I'd be playing in the same final two years later and that was what I wanted to ask you that what, like, was that reference? Because obviously that was a big scar in the club and the dynamic. And then to be there two years later facing Valencia, was that, was it referenced?

34:36Or how did they handle it to be able to go and end up delivering that European Cup? I think because we treated every day like that, that's why we got to those places. See, I think people always think about, oh, trophies and, you know, want to get to the end destination. Focus on today, you know, Focus on the process. Do that right. Train well. Prepare well. Finish. Can you do anything in the gym after? Can you stretch? What are you going to do? Are you going to meditate? Are you going to eat right? Are you going to go to bed on time? You do that accumulative over 365 days with some of the best athletes in the world that are competitive, I promise you you're going to get good results.

35:13So I don't think we thought kind of, oh, we're scarred from that. The only reason we're professional athletes is because we took it really serious. And we were good players, but we were all competitive. When you get a lot of guys like that together, that's why you get teams that are successful because they care about the outcome and the process. And I think winning is just a product of having a lot of those guys together in one room because I think it kind of pushes you on. What's your memory of that final? I remember playing against Pablo Aymar. I think he was Messi's idol as a kid. Amazing little player, number 10 Argentinian.

35:51He was only young like me. and I literally just burst on the scene like just that year before they'd know you were what 19? I think I was probably 19 and I played because I played the semi-final against Real Madrid I was still on a reserve team contract at the time never forget it so one of the we had a suspension at Effenberg and I played with the Amis and I remember standing in the tunnel next to Figo and he literally looked like God he was like glowing in the his hair slicked back with the white kit and then I was standing in the tunnel thinking I'm in trouble yeah obviously I said it to myself I didn't think anything you know I didn't say it to anybody else because you don't want you go back to the imposter syndrome everybody has that because you just don't want to get found out but again you don't know what your level is until you put yourself in the environment and I remember it was probably about five minutes into the game and Luis probably there's no way he knew who I was right not ever never would have looked at Team Sheen and thought he's going to get it and I remember like five minutes into the game he obviously didn't know I was always the quickest man on every team I played on and that's probably why I had the career that I did so he like left the ball there thinking like five yards away from me and he just left it there normally that was probably fine but I remember thinking can't do that Luis and I remember I just nicked it off him and I remember as I nicked it off I remember him looking at me like and then I sprinted by him and then I sprinted by Roberto Carlos and I'll never forget this light switch which went off in my head.

37:22And I thought, like when I went on trial at Bayern and I went over that hurdle, I thought, I can do this. And we won and we got to the final. I remember I came in, I was still on my reserve team contract and the ex-president, or vice-president, so it was Beckenbauer, then Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, newly earners, they were all world-class players in the time. You know, I think Karl-Heinz Rummenigge won the Ballon d 'Or. And I came in and that, I remember a person at the time said, You know, we just sent a Canadian kid outplay the best, most expensive player in the world, which was Figo. And I remember just getting a drink and Rumanigas said, oh, well done.

38:02You outplayed your contract. We'll do a new one tomorrow. And that was that. And so from that point on, I became, you know, that game probably solidified me kind of to become a pro. And then we had the final a couple of weeks later. and because I hadn't failed yet you know you're young and you're kind of fearless but you have a lot of doubt and I remember walking onto the pitch I'll never forget it in San Siro and as I came out the tunnel there was the whole Bayern section there was a big banner that said now's like a great time to make history in German and as I walked out I was holding this young little kid's hand that you walk out with and he was shaking I'll never forget it I remember his dad wrote me a letter years later saying thanks for comforting him as we walked out.

38:50I remember saying to him, as I looked up at his banner and I was holding his hand, I said, and he was nervous. I said, don't worry about it, I'm nervous too. But I said, just enjoy it. And that's how I played. So I went into the game and like Hitswood said to me, you get after everybody. It's exactly what I did. And yeah, it was just, I remember sitting with my mom and dad after and And I didn't even celebrate because I didn't want the guys to think. I was already planning for next season. And I didn't even say I didn't want to think I was a one hit wonder. So I just sat there with my dad real quiet.

39:25I had a cup of tea. My dad probably knew what I meant. I didn't. But I was already focused on planning for next season. I didn't want them to think I was, you know, that was a lot for me. Wow. Love that. eventually there was the change of manager at Ryabine and Felix Magat came in. Yeah. How much did that change life for you there? A lot, probably. But again, I was more senior and I was more comfortable with my own skin. And I think being a young kid, my dad always told me, don't complain. Do you know what I mean? And don't be bad. So I would never go up to the manager and say, why am I not playing?

40:05Yeah. And you just get your head down. and Obma was a super respectful gentleman a teacher didn't shout didn't yell and I think we had this amazing team but because we had a lot of success and I think you see that with City probably this year it gets to a point where it's hard to let people go because you've had success with them so you don't want to let them down so you keep them on maybe longer than you probably should but father time is a real thing you know and in athletes it's not everybody gets old no matter how good you are and we had a team where we you know, we weren't playing at the level, but our minds all thought, or the guys thought they were.

40:42So they thought, let's get Magadin, because he makes everybody run in medicine balls and all that, which is, you know, going from one extreme, you know, calm and quiet to that. And yeah, that was something. I think everybody was quite shocked because we had only international players, you know, mostly world-class players. And the environment was tense, that really tense and again I learned a lot from that because I remember thinking I don't have to lead like this right what was this guy doing that was so unusual well bear in mind Felix Meyer was an amazing player in his time one of the best but I think his probably coaching methods were again you know filtered out let's push everybody as hard as they can and because they're great players if they're fitter they'll play better but also you gotta have kind of the enjoyment side of it too and I remember we there were so many stories but I remember like we we I remember we played a game once so you so the training was about an hour from the airport so we used to drive to the airport so kickoff was always at three o 'clock and there was only two or three games we'd get a coach because it was close most of them were quite far so we'd get like a a little private jet to the game land so we played the game so five o 'clock and then we get back to the airport.

42:05Say it's probably like 8 p.m. and then everyone's in the car home training the next day. So when we get to the, so we land, we'd lost the game and we get back. He said, everybody go to the training ground. So we get to the training ground, he said, and he made us train and he basically made us just stand in our positions and said, you know, just do that for 90 minutes because that's what you did in the game. And that, we used to have loads of stuff like that. Bear in mind, you just played 90 minutes, you traveled in. Everyone's like, you probably have a Champions League game three days later. So I think he was always just trying to, you know, play mind games.

42:39But again, I didn't think it was really that necessary. But all the guys were so strong that they just took it in stride. I mean, that team was really successful. We won two doubles, you know. But I think it's not sustainable over a long period because it's just too stressful. But I love that advice that your dad gave you about don't don't complain how did that serve you well well it probably i think it did in a lot of ways but it probably it probably didn't like when i got my injury with my tendon like so my first year united i had this tendon injury but because i was such a um you know in all the testing sprints and in Derns I was probably always the best.

43:29So what I didn't realize was my mind was a lot stronger than my body. And because I was coming into a new team, I didn't want to miss time. And I didn't want to think I was cutting corners. So I just kind of played through it. And so I think to answer your question, it's a really good thing to have that. But actually when I had the issue that I had, I probably should have said something. but I didn't go to him and say boss I got this really this thing that's bugging me or this injury and I can't play or I'm taking penkers to be available for you only when it got to the point that it was so extremely they said look you know you might not ever play again even then I don't think I went to him and so it probably would have benefited me in that moment to maybe say something but I think in general I think it's a nice thing to say just get your head done just chip away just work every day I think it's a really powerful thing because I think you benefit from that I think making excuses we can all make excuses but I'm not a fan of that you know you're in charge of your destiny obviously we need a bit of luck too but just work and see where the chips fall do you know what I mean because I don't nobody really knows like every football game is different you know the opposition the referee your teammates the weather nobody knows and all the managers with these tactics nobody knows but in the end just compete and see what happens and see where the chips fall.

44:55And I think when you have enough guys that can help you win, say seven or eight, that think like that, you'll win. And so I think it was, I learned a lot from that statement, but I probably could have used it differently in others. See, I think your mental strength is absolutely a calling card for you. What was the nickname the German players gave you at Bayern? What did they call you? I'm sure you told me once, was it the machine or something? Yeah, no, the guy in the gym at United, because I was always just chipping away every day. Again, I remember coming into the gym, like, well, you got to mind, everyone's a good athlete, right?

45:32Because they've been playing the whole life. And I remember coming into the gym the first day. His name is Mike Clay, great guy. This amazing energy. And everybody being there, training. I remember Krishana was like, well, you are on a mat. And he wasn't Krishana, that Krishana yet. And he was doing these crazy shit-ups with this medicine ball and coming up and then throwing it. and I was watching him and he said I'm going to win the Ballon d 'Or this year and he did at the end of the season but that was that was pre-season in the gym nobody could see like everyone looks at him finish now and how he looks and how he plays and the goals he's scoring but again you're doing that every day take a guy that's 6 '1 with that talent that work ethic you're going to create gold and so when I saw him like putting the work in I always thought I was a good pro like I do you know before bed I used to do push ups and sit ups and stretch for an hour and I just thought that kind of helped me a little I didn't do much else and then I met Mike and we were in the gym a lot which I love and then I saw Christiano you put the work in so then you add another layer you know so then you start to do more and I just think I think culture is such a powerful thing and we just had an amazing culture of everybody was talented but everybody wants to get better yeah I want to get deep into the United thing.

46:52Before that, I do want to just talk about England because I think that your story is, like, it's one of success, right? You know, you get spotted by Bayern, you go into the youth team, you do well, you go into the first team, you start a Champions League final, you win it, you win the double-double, like, great. And then England come calling and you start to play for England. I've got a snippet here from the Guardian newspaper that this was written by a journalist in 2006, right? She said, the sun has gone so far as to liken the mild-mannered midfielder to a mass murderer. Mark Lawrenton would rather take Phil Neville for England and the Daily Mail is perpetrating the recent conspiracy theory that Hargreeves has some kind of dirt on Sven, hence his 30 caps for England.

47:34Following Hargreeves' performance against Hungary last Tuesday, the match of the day team, Alan Hansen in right and Lee Dixon were slated in. It was so relentless, Gary Lineker had to intervene. The following morning, David Pleat labelled him clearly not up to the job. Why does everyone have it in for Hargreaves? And this is before the 2006 World Cup. Yeah. What was going on? Laziness. But, you know, that's fine. You know, I knew if you watched me play properly, you wouldn't say that. Because otherwise I wouldn't have done what I did. You know, come from Canada and stuff. So I think that's why when I do this job now, I'm very careful not to be lazy.

48:12I always do my research. I knew who said that about me. and I work with some of those guys still. Which is fine, but I think it reflects more on you than it does on me. So I remember when I got into the, Sven picked me for the squad 2006 and Adrian Bevington is the press officer in England. He was a great guy. And he was like, how are we going to deal with this? Because when they did the squad, I got booed by the journalists in the room. You got booed by the journalists? I think so, yeah. So Adrian facilitated this. We were staying in the Lowry. and so we had to sit down with them all the Sunday papers there was like the 8 or 10 biggest guys me and Adrian so they all basically in front of me going like what are you doing here basically what are you in this world for so I said to them I mean bear in mind this is before the tournament and I remember thinking I couldn't say anything right because you know I didn't again my dad told me not to complain but I thought am I going to sort this out so I remember saying to them guys look with the utmost respect to you and your job if you guys would have watched me play the other day in the cup final I'm pretty sure you wouldn't come to the conclusion you did but the problem is you watch the Premier League and you don't watch what I play and I think if you guys just took a little bit of time to watch me play you wouldn't so as we walked out so basically I just didn't call them out very respectfully but I said I don't agree with anything I knew you guys got to say.

49:43And so I ended up working my way into the start in 11 because Sven, I think he knew, basically all it comes down to in football and management is, are you going to be there for me when I need you? That's all it is. And Sven knew I'll be there for him when he needs me. That's what management is. And he had this plan, I think, to get me in. I didn't think I was going to play that much. But I think he knew deep down I could give the team something that maybe others couldn't. And I knew I was getting criticism. but I didn't turn on my telly no laptop for a month I used to go I'd train in the morning I'd eat I'd go into my room and I'd listen to you and I'd just focus nothing no outside distraction didn't watch any telly no news I'd do sit-ups push-ups stretch play and by the end of the tournament Was no one telling you though these things are being said were the lads not talking about it in the dressing room or you must have been aware Yeah but you take on what you want to take on Yeah and again I didn't realize my probably best skill was to compete.

50:43So that was as hard as I was going to get it. So I remember I would just go into a room, focus on control what you can control. You know, I control what I did in my room when I train. And I knew because I was a good athlete and, you know, fitness-wise, I was probably better than even them. Because I remember when I first came into Lincoln's squad, I remember Sven pulled me into one of the hotel rooms after training. Back in the day, it was only those polar belts. You remember the heart rate was that most basic thing ever. and I remember we'd hand it in, and he said to me, Owen, come here. He went, Owen, look at this.

51:14And I said, well, what is it? And it was just connected to this laptop. And he said, look how fit you are. And I said, yeah, I'm a world fit, Sven. He said, yeah, but Owen, you're fitter than everybody else. These are the best of the best. He said, look how quick, when your heart rate goes, look how quick it comes back down. And I didn't know that. I just played on instinct, right? So once people started to tell me, oh, you're the quickest, we do the sprint test, I win. And endurance-wise, So when I went into a game, even though I was tired, I knew I could push myself more than anybody else. So that's why by the end of that tournament, I remember when we lost to Portugal and I walked through the mix zone and all those guys that asked me why I was there gave me a clap as I walked through.

51:58And again, I didn't say anything like I told you. But they knew they were wrong. And again, that's fine. I'm not out here to make people look bad, but I just think you should be, if you're going to have a strong opinion on something, make sure you're researched. And when you went into that England squad, you just said culture was really important. We've spoken to Rio Ferdinand, Peter Crouch, Joe Cole, that were all members of that squad at the time that spoke about the cliques, the divisions, the club rivalries from the Premier League that had manifested themselves. how did you find a way of fitting in there?

52:37I didn't try and fit in you know I was just myself I was like Switzerland I was just independent you know so I could drift in and out of everyone's because I wasn't affiliated with anyone so and I think everybody probably quite saw that as well like I'd be with the young guys initially and I think that's probably how it came about that Mania had signed me I think it was the United boys said Sir Alex go get him because I saw how you trained every day you know you had to be pro you had to be resilient um but i knew i was an outsider within the group but i was cool with that because you know i'd not been an outsider as such but i'd had leaving home and moving to munich and you know and all that i had to adapt and again not make it hard on myself but i do think you learn a lot when you leave your comfort zone i could have easily said it by me for my whole career i loved it there but i just felt i've been there 10 years and i i wanted to test myself so I think being in that group I mean we had the most amazing team like David Beckham Stephen Jarre Michael Owen Wayne Rooney Rio Fernand John we had everything training sometimes was so good I used to think we should win we gotta win the World Cup everything but it made me realize also that it's not just about talent it's about how you put it together and I do think we were closer than people made out I think that's people use that now that other was clicky yeah but I didn't feel that when we played we just back then you played 4-4-2 you know that's just kind of how it was and we had Wayne Rooney and Mike Lowen you know Amil Heskey did an amazing job being a partner as well so essentially you're not gonna you're gonna miss out on one midfield player and I think that was just how it was at the time but we could have should have achieved a lot more without question but we didn't I always people always say to me oh you know I could have been a or my dad or my uncle, somebody could have made it.

54:33I know after being in this myself and watching my brother, being an athlete is like a recipe. You need lots of ingredients that go into it. If you don't have them all, you're not going to make it. And I think that team was as good as it was, talent-wise on paper. We were just missing a couple of ingredients that were really necessary to bring it together. Well, even the formation thing was just how it was. And we probably had too many great players. we probably should have dropped one because in the end you know I always say a game of football is 22 players but there's only one ball there's no point in having you know eight all class number 10s out there you know you gotta you gotta get the ball back from the other team when they got it so because we had all these amazing guys and Sven was such he was a great guy and a wicked manager but he wanted to accommodate all the talent and put it all together to the point that Scaldi even just retired which if anything he should have been front and center of it and I think we probably just needed to which would have been hard would have been drop one or two and get a couple more that kind of were there to help them get the ball back and then they could play the decisive pass but you got to remember Beckham was the guy at his team, Gerrard was, Lampard was, Michael so they were always used to getting it and being decisive but the problem is in international football when you do that and you turn it over they're pretty good at football too and then you got to get it back and all those guys aren't the best in the world at getting it back you know and we played teams and we couldn't get it back and then you think and then you start to lose a bit of confidence you think and it just it just wasn't the right length it was close really really close but we just didn't we didn't have it as you needed and how much do you think they were held back by the weight of the England shirt and is that something that you felt probably I think there's a lot of but if you're used to playing on that level there is a lot of weight but again you have the expectations you can't control Jake so I'm sure everybody felt it especially when it came to penalties and stuff but I think

56:38I mean yeah that's a real thing and the thing was the guys had so much success with their clubs so you would have thought it would naturally just happen with the national team but we I don't to this day I couldn't really I don't think anybody knows exactly what would have been what would have been the perfect fix and have the lads ever got together and spoken about it from their generation no I mean no it's a waste of time it's a pass Jay you know you know we I mean my first tournament 2002 we played against one of the best teams I've ever seen Ronaldo, Rivaldo you know Ronaldinho all them yeah and we got knocked we lost in the quarterfinal there's nothing wrong with that 0-4 we lost on penalty to Portugal, no six-year loss on penalties to Portugal.

57:28You're close, give or take a penalty here or there. You know, you could be in a semifinal. So, and again, the margins are really fine at that level. And I think, you know, expectation and pressure is a significant thing. And maybe we overanalyze it when it came to penalties because of, you know, what had happened in the past. But I think Gareth Southgate and the boys did an amazing job of, again, focus on the process. control where you can control. If I'm, my whole career was decided on penalties, pretty much. You know, I won two Champions League on penalties. I won out in two major tournaments on penalties.

58:04So I've been on both sides. So for me, I understand sometimes why you win and why you lose. And a lot of it's just, it's just mental and kind of on that process. If I walk up and I'm thinking of missing, I'll miss. Or if I'm thinking of the expectation or the pressure, or I'll be in the front of the paper if I miss. How this is going to affect my family. I've already got negative thought. If I walk up as I'm putting the ball down, I think, I'm going to smash this top left. And after we win, I'm going to go have a beer with my family. That's so much more positive. And I think that's probably what Gareth and this generation did.

58:43They focused on, right, make your mind up where you're going to go. Be clear and be decisive and be positive. You can see on people's body language when they walk up, who's going to miss? because they don't want to be there and your shoulders are down and the run-ups are a bit strange. Being in that environment and seeing that, our penalty shootouts, that was pressure. That, you know, when the guys play football and the games, the ball's rolling, you don't have time to think. It's all instinct and the guys are amazing instinct-wise. But penalties is the only time the ball's stopped. So what are you going to do?

59:18Think, right? And you've got a lot of time to think because you're watching that you go before me, you miss, you put a lot of pressure on me. Then I'm walking up thinking, if you just miss, if I miss, we're out. You miss two, you're over, right? So there's a lot of time to think. And I think if that thought process, you know how long that walk is from your team to the penalty spot? It's long. Because you can't run because you look nervous. Can't go too slow, you look nervous. Do you know what I mean? So you got a lot of time to like process and think. And that's why it's really important that you think positively, instructively.

59:51And then I think if you do that, you give yourself belief or in confidence. You can still miss, but I think the process is much different, it's much better if you think positively rather than think of the consequences or the pressure. And on a personal level, you went from being booed by journalists when your name was called out at the press conferences to clapped by them as you left the stadium in the final game. you went from being booed by the England fans when you came on against Paraguay to being voted player of the tournament at the end of the tournament. Did you take a moment then to stop and think, okay, it might not have been what it could have been for England, but for me personally, that was a great tournament?

1:00:33No, I was already on to the next one. I didn't realize to that extent, because I used to switch it off. I didn't take no notice. That's why it amazes me that all these athletes listen to all social media and what everybody says. Why would you listen to what? They're not there with you guys in the dressing room. Focus on what you can control. Block out all the noise, all the opinions. They don't matter. It doesn't matter your teammates or your coaches. So my brother and my family used to sit up in the crowd and imagine your brother sitting next to people booing you. My brother's thinking, I'm going to have loads of people close to me saying they almost had fights.

1:01:05I was going to ask, how did they cope? They found it really hard. But again, we didn't really talk about it either, but they probably knew I was the little butt they probably knew don't make him mad you know because you know I was competitive you know and I as I got older I realized I was good in those moments as hard as it was probably you know for me to learn that I could fight against it but I think it probably was really hard for them you know I remember Frank Lampard I never said this to him I should have actually because Frank got it from the England fans and I remember families are really close you know all the players are locked away but all the families are together all the time for a month and Frank's mom came over to my mouth so I got booed I think and said don't worry Frank got it too you know well they're kind of there for you you know and what an amazing thing to say from a mother to a mother so I think those things are you know quite comforting I think for families because you're I think everybody means well but there is a lot of pressure on everybody to like jostling maybe for position.

1:02:14Do you know what I mean? Within the camp, we're all locked away. But it's also difficult for the families being away for a month and watching the family through the ups and downs because there's so many. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and the coverage on the nation's largest 5G network.

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1:04:30For your parents as well, I'm wondering about what it must have been like for them. that they're from Wales and England, but then they've emigrated to Canada and then their son comes back to do it and he's being disrespected or abused for it. Like, I suppose I'm interested in just how they perceived it. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure it was probably really hard. I can only imagine now as far how refreshing I would find that. But you know what? I think they probably knew I wasn't going to go down quietly. I could have failed easily. It's fine. You know, I still would have achieved far more than I would have ever dreamed.

1:05:08But if I was going to go down, I was going to go down swinging. And that, they probably knew that about me because, again, I was the youngest. I had to learn to fight for everything, which, and I think is really good. So, you know, we never really spoke about it, but I'm sure it was really hard for your kid. You don't want to go through that. But in the end, I think as much as I had talent to play sport, I had a talent to kind of hang in there when it was hard and actually not do less, do more and push. And it's such a powerful feeling when you go beyond of what you think you can do and actually outperform people that are, I know you're more talented than me and I outplay you.

1:05:49Do you know how powerful that is within a game? And when you know you're better than me and I outplay you, that's like that's competition and I think when people know that about you then you become a problem because you're it's not just about talent and again sports I don't care what sport you play it's not just about talent can you hang in there when it's hard can you push yourself beyond what you can because I promise you everybody's tired but just just do more just see what if you're tired you know we'll take you off if you don't play well we'll take you off but do as much as you can let's see where the chips fall and I think for me I always just my dad used to say to me I don't care how you play I don't care if you win just give me what you got and that's how I played all the time I just give it what I got and I was so lucky that it took me as far as it did because I didn't think I'd ever get there You know you said a few times in your career you had these moments where you thought I don't actually belong here loads of them just take us into that England dressing room around the time of 2006 under Sven whether you had that sense of, I need to prove myself all over again here with the greatest players in England.

1:06:57No, I did. Yeah, of course I had to. But I wasn't going to do that by talking. You know, I was a Canadian kid who played in Germany. What am I going to say? Everyone's probably looking at her and thinking, you know, what's he doing? But you know what? I had to just, again, chip away. And again, the guys are all, we're all the same guy wherever we're from, wherever color, race, religion you are. We all left home on our own to go play football. and make a job of it. And then if you play for a Bayern Munich or Man United, Arsenal and Chelsea or Liverpool, and then you end up playing for England, we're all pretty much the same guy in a lot of ways.

1:07:33And you can see that in each other. So I think if you just chip away and you hang in there when it's hard, the other guys see that, you know, they might not at the beginning think, he could be an imposter. And everybody probably has that feeling because you don't really know what the level is. I mean we had guys brilliant Premier League players used to come up to the England team and you could tell you know after the first training they didn't want to be there Who was the leader in that England squad? They all were I mean everybody was the best player in this position in the world almost at the time so you wouldn't have said he was front and center Bex was probably was captain because he was like you know in another stratosphere and he was probably a little bit older but And was he vocal?

1:08:19No Not really. He led by example. They all did. Stevie wasn't really vocal. He was just Stephen Jai. He was this amazing player. Frank was just, again, another one, just chipping away every day. Training, finish. He'd do shooting. Then he'd sit down, do sit-ups. You know, everybody was chipping away. So the vocal ones are, I think from my experience, I don't think being vocal is really that beneficial sometimes because I think proof is in the pudding when you play. and you can talk all you like, but the exam, you got a final exam every weekend or every Wednesday. And if you fail that, the other guys know, you talked a lot, but you were crap.

1:09:00So I think sometimes less is more. Prove it when you play. Man United, when did you first hear that Sir Alex Ferguson wanted to sign you? Gary never called me. And he said, boss wants to sign you. And I was so happy about it. I've been there for 10 years, moved there at 16. When I was a young boy, became like a man, really. Learned a new language, new culture. But again, I just felt like I was getting, like we were the best team in Germany. We had the best players. I don't know how many leagues we won, but we won quite a few in the leagues and in the Cups and the Champions League. And I just felt like after 10 years, I needed, I wanted a different test.

1:09:40I wouldn't have left unless they called me and called me and I don't think Bayern wanted me to go after that World Cup. so it took another year and in that time I'd broken my leg I'd broken my fibula so when I came back because I had a cast on like toe tip and I remember and Maggot was under a bit of pressure at the time so they wanted me to play and I wasn't probably through my rehab yet but his job was literally on the line so I came back and I probably didn't have the quad strength that I had because I was in this cast and that probably contributed to me starting with getting the injury they had, which was a tendonitis, which I didn't know what it was because I always thought of myself as just this machine, you know?

1:10:24They just push through everything. And that injury is weird because it's painful, but you can take pain and you can play through it. So you arrived at Man United with an issue, right? Yeah, yeah, they knew. Man United knew, yeah. They saw it on the scan. But again, I probably should have just rested, but I wasn't wired like that, you know? I just wanted to play. So there'd be moments where it was, depending on the pitch, tendons are really delicate and I didn't know that. And so depending on the pitch and stuff and the surface, sometimes it would just like, I remember standing on pitch in a warm-up and literally it'd just be like a post, could move.

1:11:03And then others, it wouldn't be too bad. So even that season, I wasn't fully fit, but I didn't miss many games. In your first season at United. Yeah. So we were obviously very successful. We won the league in the Premier League. And I remember that's what Saralek said to me. He said, you can help us win the Champions League. And that's what I went there for. First of all, to represent Man United. You think about the history of the football club and the greats that have played there. To even think you've been a part of that is crazy. But again, I made the jump from Canada to Bayern and then to England.

1:11:43And I thought, well, come on, let's see how hard we can make it. And so that was such amazing. And the cool thing is when you go to a team like that, like I imagine, you know everybody because they're all really famous. So you don't got to, it's not like going to a new school, you don't know anybody, you got to find your way. I knew all the England boys and I knew all the other guys because they were all, you know, Ronaldo and Van der Sar and Vidic and Tebbes, you know, brilliant players. So that kind of made it a little bit easier. And I think I was 26. It was just a good age, you know, 16 to 26 in Munich.

1:12:18You know, let's see, let's see, you know, how far we can push this thing. And what was the big difference from Munich to Manchester? Nothing. Same mentality. If anything, it was probably a little bit more relaxed, I'd say. Because in training every day, we were getting after each other in Munich. It's just how the mentality was back then. It's probably not like that anymore with, you know, HR and all that. You probably can't be like that, you know. But it was like that. I remember we were training one of the first days. I knew Scolzi from England. He's the best Scolzi. He's so dry. And I remember I was chasing somebody.

1:12:55And I was fair, but I was, you know, I wasn't awful, but I was competitive. Obviously, I'm new, right? So I'm thinking, right, got to let people know. and then I was going oh and it's not like that yeah you know like Gaffer just picks a team if you've been off your play you don't gotta like show anyone but he did it in such a brilliant way and I thought it was really cool how we the way he said it because he could tell like I wanted to make an impression not in a bad way but I cared and it was really it was really important I learned a lot from kind of that moment like you know don't get after your teammates in a way do you know what I mean but that was the culture in Munich it was like we were after each other you know we played like Germans against foreigners or young v old and it'd be starting 11 against the suburbs and everything was just like you know So Scholes was looking out for you rather than Yeah oh definitely he meant it in a good way but I think he could tell the culture I had before was maybe slightly different and that's probably why we were successful because we had that but at United we probably had maybe a little bit more I don't know I don't know he just he could see he was trying to help me which was good I remember saying to Rio Ferdinand early on when I worked with him back at BT I said what did Tralek say to create the culture at Man United and he said the boss said nothing because the players created the culture but again he handpicked everybody so he knew again goes back to the guys only play I think because are you going to be there for me when I need you right and if if you're the boss and you pick me you've handpicked me you know I'll be there for you and Sir Alex only had guys I think that were there for him yeah and that's why whether even it was like you know a John O'Shea or a Danford Wes Brown um Ji Sung Park even the guys that didn't play all the games when they played they were there for him and so we ended but then you have Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez Giggs I mean every we had probably 10 guys that were captain of the country so we had this culture obviously Sir Alex was at the top and David Gill but all those guys in there you could count on and the more of those you get the more chance you can win it's not a coincidence that many of them have struggled since it's because they lost 10 captains in the country and they bought loads of players spent a lot of money but football is only are you going to be there when I need you when the chips are down because when you're winning and it's easy it's easy for everyone but football is about can you be there when it's hard can you compete when it's at its most difficult and we had guys that were good when it was difficult because Alex handpicked everyone and I think that was and when we got into difficult moments we'd be there for each other as different as we were Can you give us an example of a difficult moment where that manifested itself?

1:15:51You had them all the time I mean but I think again I think because the culture was so good and we weren't always like critiquing, analyze everything. Okay, once in a while, you'd have a little blip and you'd lose, but you'd probably only lose, what, four or five games back then with those teams. But there was no panic, really. There was none of this cheerleader speech, like, do your job better, all that nonsense. That's just noise. Do you know, and especially with guys that are that talented. So I remember he sat us down. We were in Asia somewhere, beginning of the season, preseason tour. And I remember he sat us front.

1:16:27People probably heard this story, but he kind of went through all the team a lot of the guys you know, Nemanja's from Serbia and Jisung's from Korea and all these guys he said, I've had to fight to get here and I've handpicked all you guys because I believe in you and we have the team to win everything and he held up an envelope they said a couple of names in here who I think could let us down don't let it be one of yours and he walked out And I remember we all thought, whose name's in the envelope? Do you know what I mean? I don't know if there was or there wasn't. But to do that to those guys with that mindset and that culture, you just let them match.

1:17:12And that's why we played not to let him down. You know, we obviously played to win. But you don't want to let him down because of the standards that we had. And that's how we played. People always say, oh, you play to win and all that. But again, like my dad said, no regrets. No regrets, leave it all out there. And that's how he was. So I think because he kind of instilled that environment and everybody was hand-picked, the team almost couldn't... Okay, you could lose if you play a Barca. Pep's team, you can lose. But ultimately, the team was won because I think the culture that he instilled and the mentality of the players.

1:17:53So did we make too much of the Sir Alex Ferguson hair dryer treatment? I think again that was a time in its place you know you think back to parenting did you ever get it? I didn't actually I got he took me off once at Tottenham I was probably the best player in the first I don't know why he took me off I remember why he took me off somebody squared it to me again I think at the top level all the guys are processing everything so quickly and most of it's about decision making so So I can hit, go back to the England thing, I can hit a Hollywood pass, but it's probably not the right thing for the team.

1:18:33That would be more about my ego. Can I hit a home run? And I think at the top, I think, okay, that's option A. That's the pass I want to hit, but I could get picked off and that's a counterattack. At the top level, the games are decided by that transition. So I got to think, okay, that's not a good one. I'll take B, you know, and then we go. If you can and it's worth the risk, go for it. So I think all the top players play like that. They think, you know, hope for the best but plan for the worst, I think. And I remember we played something away and I think Scalzi squared it to me. And it wasn't a great ball and it wasn't one of them.

1:19:13If I dribbled, it was a bad idea. But it came to me beautifully. So I hit it, right? Edge of the box. Shoot. If it goes over, goal kick, right? No big deal. takes a mad ricochet bounces off somebody end up getting the counter almost score didn't score but I think he thought I don't like that and probably in a way sending me a message and I remember being interested and thinking and I had never because when he signed me he was calling me all the time messaging me I felt like we were mates you know what I mean and not mates but you know he was very close because I was trying to get you to come and I remember thinking I should have a chat to him about it you know like why did you take me off but I realized quite quickly that's you know that wasn't my place because I remember the first time I ever did I knocked on his door I wasn't playing and I forget the look he gave me and I thought probably shouldn't have knocked on the door but you don't know that right because you know you got this communication everything's cool and again he created this he was the boss everybody called him the boss I remember my first game for Man United it was such a powerful thing playing City away when they weren't the City and we didn't start the season great I didn't because of my 10 deniers I didn't start the first few games and I played in in the Memphis Scolese and Carrick and Giovanni scored against the run of play but we played really well anyway halftime and I'm walking off and said we're going to the tunnel over there and Reel's behind me he's the centre-back and I'm walking off and Reel's at Owen Bear in mind, Rio's like 27 years old at the time.

1:20:51You know, London boy, quite lively. And he's like, Owen, I'm walking, I'm like, Owen, get in the dressing room quick. Gaffer's going to go mad. And I'm thinking, what, it's half time. I'll just run around. I'm walking into the dressing room. He's like, get in the dressing room quick. So even Rio, you know, as he was and the experience that he had and how he grew up, he was respectful of the boss's reaction because he didn't know. and I thought that was very telling of kind of the culture was like it was demanding and rightly so and I remember we got So Alex didn't want to see you walking basically No, no Rio was just fearful of what he was going to say because we're probably going to get it, right?

1:21:30And he wanted to be in there quick because if you last he'd like you know that probably would So you don't run You don't walk, you run I don't know I never asked him he was just Rio was respectful of the boss's reaction whatever it was going to be so we get in we sit down half time and the boss said I don't know how we're losing. You're by far the best team. Keep playing Japan, you'll win the game. But the fact that Rio even thought that, I thought was very powerful. And again, it goes back to the culture. You just didn't want to let the boss down. And I think when you add that with all the players that you put together and the personalities and the talent, it created this environment which was just so successful because everybody cared about the outcome all the time.

1:22:16what set Ronaldo apart that's led him to be arguably the greatest player of all time do you think? First of all it's genetics you know what is he 6 '1"? probably I'd say what 85 kilos probably 4-5 % body fat ridiculous talent with a ball but again like so he can play everybody can a lot of guys can play probably I bet he wasn't always the best player as a kid there was one kid I think he said was more talented than him and he ended up not making it so i think he had he had all the ingredients in the recipe jake and how did you find playing with him oh brilliant he was such a good lad you know he was so funny and i think he was he was probably quite fortunate coming into that environment lads didn't take it easy on him he used to get it you know like be critical of him and of his hair or his clothes and um but he took that on the chin again like i like i did come through at barn quietly chip away and then eventually become you that season he won the ballon door we won the champs league and he played a level which was just elite and a lot of that was a byproduct of obviously the team we were in but the work that he put in and he you know training would finish so he'd do something in the gym before trying and then he'd go into the gym with mike you know and he'd do his sit-ups and he'd do whatever he did and then he'd go in the ice bath then he'd go and And he'd say, you know, so he was doing everything right.

1:23:45So you combine that with being 6 '1", having probably a 40-inch vertical, being, you know, you add all those variables up. And then once you give a guy success, a taste of that, that young, and wins the Ballon d 'Or and the Champions League, are you going to want to do this one more? If you're of the elite, say the Michael Jones or the LeBron James. And I think he got a taste of that and thought, right, how far can I push myself? how many more can I win you know because I think winning a trophy and over celebrating all you're doing is letting people know you don't think you're going to do it again so don't don't over celebrate enjoy it with the people you love that's my only regret maybe but don't do it so much that it looks like you never you don't think you're ever going to get back here and I think Cristiano he just had this ability to work sacrifice push himself and he just never looked content I remember seeing him pitch side when he was at Madrid at the game.

1:24:44And bear in mind, he won the Ballon d 'Or thus. He was the best player. And I said to him, wow, you know, I'm so proud of you. But you've been able to just, you know, to keep pushing and just see where the chips fall. And he just kept going, look where he is. You know, he's in the category of the… What did he say to you when you said that? Like that, you know, but he knows the work he puts in, right? So he knows that. That's not luck. if you did that it's like playing tennis and you hit an ace you can get lucky sometimes you can't get lucky for 10 months over a season over 20 years and score 60 goals a season what did you think of the criticism when he came back to United I don't think he was a problem I think the culture wasn't the one that he had so he came into a dressing room of Van der Sar from Barguer Besserden World Gary Neville Emmanuel Vidic Paul Scholes Riel Ferdinand Patrice Evra Geek Skulls Rooney Tevis and all of a sudden you come back in and we were demanding by the way like we were you know we had a lot of laughs but when it came to do the job we did you know that was 1A because of Sir Alex and I think he came back and said environment so what is this this is not and you got to remember he's like how old was he at the time like 36 37 he didn't have time to people figure their lives out and their training habits and their diet.

1:26:10You know, he's got like one or two years left. And I'm sure he came back because he wanted to, you know, to win and be successful. But the culture wasn't there. You know, and he was probably, he had his standards, but he still does. But I don't think the standards were around him, were at his level. And that's probably why, I don't know the kind of how he left, but he probably thought, this is not for me. Yeah. Did you mind he nicked a few free kicks off you though? Because you were a good free kick taker. you ended up in a team with him no he's Christian come on it's Christian what are you going to say I mean I remember and like with Ingram we had Bex you know at Bayern Munich I had Memer Scholl amazing free kick taker I didn't really get many as a kid but I remember once I scored one against Arsenal and when we won the league my first year it kind of knocked them out of the title race but bear in mind we train every day right so you know who takes them you can just know again it filters it out real quick and I remember so we played the Champions we found against Chelsea and he came over into the dressing room.

1:27:08So we had practiced the week before, Edwin in goal, I was on the right, hitting it over the wall and he was doing this knuckleball thing, you know? And I remember I hit nine out of 10 into the top corner with Ed in goal and I was walking off, didn't say anything and Ed came over to me and he said, oh, and if we get a free kick in the final, you got to take it. It's to win a Tama Z. I said, come on, it's Christiana, what am I going to say? I'm not going to take it off him. And anyway, so a week later, we get into the dressing room in Moscow for the warm-on-up, Mutych's playing. And Krishnana comes over to me and he says, hey, if we get a free kick today, it's yours.

1:27:44And that's how he was, you know, like he had watched it, didn't say anything to me. Week later, but in the right time, he cared about the outcome. You know, he wanted to win. He thought, maybe if we got one, I give him a better chance of scoring and I want you to take it. Okay, we didn't get one. But again, people always criticize him and say, oh, he's selfish and all that. I never saw him be like that. Of course he's selfish. He left home on his own to achieve what he has. But he still had to fit in a group and be a team player when he had to. And that, I thought, was a really powerful message from the best player in the world at the time.

1:28:19You described after winning your first Champions League that you didn't celebrate because you wanted to go back and plan for the year after. How did you respond to winning the Champions League in 2008 then? I enjoyed it a little bit more, but I... I think being a professional athlete, you don't get too up and too down, really. Because I think you protect yourself from the highs and lows. So, and again, I think I was always fearful of looking like, you know, you're enjoying it too much. So, and it was my first year. And I, you know, I expected us to do that a few more times. So, I remember sitting with my parents at a table and just kind of, you watch it all, you take it all in.

1:29:02Because, you know, so many people work so hard throughout a season. everybody just sees the players and the coaches but you don't so many other people to sit and share it with the kit man and all the staff and have a beer with and you've achieved the ultimate you can achieve more it's such a beautiful feeling to share it with everyone I think just that alone was and you know the season's over so we've done our job but I remember we had a friendly with England three days later at Wembley against the US and I had that in my mind too you know Fabio Cabello just taking over you want to be right you know so you enjoy it but I think the guys that win multiple times I don't think they because I remember the first time I won the Champions League I never thought I grew up in Canada I never thought I'd win a Champions League you know when you're a kid and you win a tournament and you're just like it's the best feeling ever I had the same feeling but you won the Champions League and I thought I would feel better or different but I had there was no different it was just wow we won it was a sense of achievement so I realized it's such an amazing feeling to win but actually there's no different feeling if you're in under 10s or under 12s or winning a Premier League it's the same sensation and again when you wake up you think you're going to feel different you don't you still got to wake up you still got to eat breakfast and train and do everything so I think I realized quite quickly get ready for the next day So you were looking forward as you always did planning what's next thinking you're going to win a few more Champions Leagues, a few more Premier Leagues.

1:30:36What you didn't see around the corner was the injury situation with your knee. For people that don't know the story, how did you come to have such a catastrophic physical collapse at this point in your career? You know, I didn't even know what a tendon was really. And then I played the Champions League final against Chelsea. We won. Played for the US three days later against the US Cup man in the match. went away for a holiday. I think I'm meant to be off for four weeks or three weeks. But I had to come back and get some injections for my tendon to make it stronger. And I've virtually never really, I was never the same again after that.

1:31:18I was 27 probably. And bear in mind, I was probably, I was quickest. Probably had the best endurance. That's why I played at that level. Because I didn't realize that until they did all the testing. but that's what probably that was part of my skill set that I was so explosive and probably a lot of that contributed to the injury you know being so explosive but only once did I realize how how big the problem was and I always thought I'd come back because I was a lot stronger and that's when that's how I know mine's a lot stronger than the body because I could push myself there but my body was like made like so you had this injection that summer right the summer after winning the Champions League Like, I was meant to be fit for the start of preseason.

1:32:02What happened then? I don't know. I just had a scar on the knee and it just, I literally couldn't bend my knee. I mean, I couldn't really straighten it. My quad had switched off. And by the time I figured it all out, I remember I saw this specialist in Sweden. He was in Sweden, this university town. And I was really struggling. And again, I was trying quietly to figure it out myself and get back, obviously. because you you'd gone so far with your body and taking you so far you know from Canada Germany and all these obstacles and you know I'm going to overcome this fine I remember I was I knew I was in trouble because I just dated that I couldn't even go down all my stairs in my house I'd sleep on the couch because I could go up but I couldn't get down because you know anybody that's had a tendon problem they'll know like steps steps down is like quite a just sore and so I went I said to the other I got to go see this guy because they thought I was around the corner to play and I wasn't obviously.

1:33:00So I said to the doc, I'm going to go see this guy. The England doc said it up, I'm going to go see this guy. And I got there, I remember he had this grainy machine and he looked at me, I remember the way he looked at me like, and I remember he said to me, he said, I'm not sure you're ever going to play again. And I remember I just felt like life had left my body. And I was like, and I was 27. We just won the Champions League not long ago. Fabio was really keen on me playing for England.

1:33:34And then from that moment on, it was like, I had to, you know, trying to find a way to fight back. I didn't realize how big an injury a tendon was. I always thought I'd get back. And I did in a way, but I was never the same. You know, it was just, so I had to have bilateral tendon surgery. it was a big bigger obstacle I would have been better off you know breaking my leg or anything like that but tendons are just really delicate and then once you're at the game for a long time then you're trying to readjust and then as I always say it's like a train not on the tracks and then I started because you're loading different in your pain and you're taking penkers because you want to play then you start to get muscle injuries because your body's like out of bounds so you you know and it's a really slippery slope that you get on there, which it's very humbling because your body takes you so far, like, further than you could ever dream.

1:34:28And then out of nowhere, it's like, you know, you can't. And I remember, I think I found that probably the hardest part that I didn't really get to dictate my own finish. Do you know what I mean? Like, because I was so, I used to, I remember when I was at Bayern, I used to have a yoga mat. Guys must have thought I was insane, but I used to do sun salutations, like this, like a thousand-year-old exercise, like a yoga thing. It was my warm-up before I warmed up. And I used to carry the mat into the stadium before games and the guys would laugh. But I started to have so much success. I said, mate, can you show me that exercise?

1:35:06And so for me, going from that to then, you know, and winning all the tests and saying, you know, you're fitting everybody else and the sprint test and all that, then to not be able to like just train every day was so humbling. I found it really, I found that probably the hardest part because my mind wanted to get back out there and I kept pushing when I really, I should have just taken a step back. Did you get depressed? I must have been. If I wasn't depressed, then I'd done it. Of course you must have been. But again, I wasn't, I think everybody's depressed at some point in their life. Must be.

1:35:43Because real life is hard sometimes when you get ups and you get downs. But, you know, again, goes back to when you put you got to find a way to hang in there you know when it's hard and then chip away so even for me i realized okay my my level was high and then all of a sudden you get brought back down and then you're just like can i can i stand out can i squat can i tense my core can i and then you got to find a way to like just make marginal small gains and then try and get back to that point i got i was really um i wouldn't say proud but for hanging in there when it was really hard because I had moments where I thought I'm torturing myself because I just want to play so much and and I my body was like mate like come on do you know like really but I did I got back but again I wasn't the same and again that's hard when you're when you know like I was good at competing in football but when it gets to a point I think a lot of athletes probably get this towards the end, you end up competing against yourself because you think, I want to play or I want to win, especially when you've had success.

1:36:52And you can anymore. And then it's like, come on, let's call it a day. It's probably, I think every athlete gets that at some point. And that's why in a way you almost have to respect that Tony Kroos, the way he did it. You know, he didn't, you know, just like burn out. He's like, finish on the high, one of the best players in the world, win a Champions League because to this day that experience affects me to this day I can't run anymore you know it's not you know even playing football with my son's not the same probably so I learned a lot from that but yeah I didn't have the finish that would have been vision that's that's for sure.

1:37:30Can you explain how you learned to hang in there because I imagine there's a lot of our audience that maybe they're not competing for Champions Leagues but they're going through tough moments and you're somebody that survived and still managed to thrive in spite of it what did you learn about doing that you're a lot stronger than you think you know and if you don't believe in yourself who's good who else can you know so you know believe in yourself and wake up and and do your best you know it's whatever that looks like you know being a professional athlete is is you're very fortunate to do that i never dreamed of that but once i got in the environment.

1:38:10I thought, right, let's make the best of this when I can. And we all have the capacity to do that every day. You know, that's why I don't plan anything anymore and all the guys used to joke and get mad at me and stuff. But the biggest moments of my life were all decided by not me. So I realized, you know, the chips are going to fall where they fall. And I got to be ready to strike when it's there. And I also got to be there to say no as well. But I think for me, just do your best just chip away whatever you're good at it's not about being a professional athlete you can apply that to everything every day you know go to bed at a decent time wake up have a routine have a bit of structure try and eat well you know get to the gym if you can now I realize I'm at 40 I mean I used to be this professional athlete I could do anything and now I wake up and I feel like I feel like I'm 70 which is crazy humbling but you know what I think now I gotta do resistance training I gotta do weights I gotta get stronger because you lose muscle mass so I think just try and find a way to just chip away and do your best get in a good routine and you're a lot stronger than you think so so back yourself you know don't be so hard on yourself you know every single person I play with at the top level I can promise you they have doubts and everybody said they don't have any fears a liar because I had that when I played games but you know what I thought I gotta push through this and I'm sure the guy I'm playing against, he's got a bit of doubt too.

1:39:42But let's see how far you can take it. So yeah, don't be hard on yourself and you're a lot stronger than you think, I think. Well, I hope that you might not have had the finish that you dreamed of or that you planned for, but you can now look back on your career. 12 major trophies, winning the Champions League in your teens, playing for some of the biggest clubs in the world, representing your country, proving a lot of people wrong and more importantly than that, being, in my opinion, one of the nicest guys I worked with in my time in football, a brilliant dad, a great friend. And what you say about people who live this transactional life, you were actually the only person on the day that I said I was leaving BT Sports to send me a lovely message and keep in touch.

1:40:21That's like, it's just a reminder that you're useful to people when you're useful to them. And it's actually true friends that are the ones that hang around before and after. But Jake, that's when you see the real people. I think for me, I remember when I got released at United, So bear in mind, they bought me. And I remember a Srax called me up to his office. He said, we're not going to give you another contract. Imagine how humbling that is. And I wouldn't have given me one either because I wasn't fit, right? And I said, boss, I'm going to play. And I probably shouldn't have. But my mindset was...

1:40:54And I said, and I'll probably play. I would have played for free. But I remember saying to him... So he had basically released me. My contract finished. And so I remember on the last day, I went around to every staff member and said thank you and shook their hand. You know, because it's not their fault, but we had a relationship for four years. And I think it's really important that you, you know, you kind of respect people or you kind of honor people that you're on a journey with together and not want anything. You know, I'm not trying to make this big Instagram. I don't have Instagram anyway, but make a big post and say, look, you know, what I'm doing, I'm sharing and all that.

1:41:32Like, you know, do it quietly. And I still see some of those people and they come over and give you a hug because they realize, you know, you are yourself all the time and you're consistent. So whether with you or, you know, I think just be yourself, you know, and if people like it cool and if they don't, that's also fun. They can go find who they want to hang out with. But you learn a lot, I think, being in sports and then coming into the media side. And it's very critical. But I think in the end, it's all still about relationships, I think.

1:42:10Damien. Jake. You know what? Hearing Owen explain his story about being brave enough to leave home at 16, travel to Germany to walk into that dressing room with the likes of, you know, Oliver Kahn and other huge German legends and then taking on the likes of Roberto Carlos and Figo and playing alongside Maradona and taking all of that in his stride and then finally earning the chance to play for his country and being booed by fans and being booed by journalists when his name gets called out is a great reminder that sometimes life feels so unfair and so ridiculous and people base their decisions on other people in this world with so little information about what those people have actually gone through and what they've actually done.

1:42:56You wonder why we chase other people's approval so much. Like, we don't need to chase the approval of others. We just need to focus on what we are doing with our lives and Owen is a really important reminder of that, I think. Well, that story he's told that the journalist sat on the bonnet of his car saying, give me your number or you'll get a bad rating in the newspaper. And him saying, well, do what you need to do and I'll do what I do. The people that have got my phone number are the ones that have earned the right to have my number. He's a really good example of somebody that, whether he's learnt it or whether somebody's taught him it, just somebody that's learnt how to control the controllables.

1:43:30You know, that was a really powerful example of it. There's a concept that it reminded me of. It's by a psychologist called Daniel Gilbert, and it's called prevalence-induced concept change. And what it says is that what happens is your brain will find things to worry about, whether you step out of your comfort zone or not. So stepping out of your comfort zone, your brain will still find things to worry about, but you're still stepping out of your comfort zone while you're doing it, if that makes sense. Yes. And he's a guy that's somebody that, rather than worry about what he's facing, just give it a go and then worry about whether he can cope with it and what he often found is that once he was stepping out of his comfort zone very quickly he was working out no I'm okay here that description of the first five minutes of playing Ian's Lewis V going when no I'll be alright here is a great lesson for any of us Brilliant I really enjoyed it what a guy Well you've known him a long time haven't you from your work on TV Oh mate he's one of my favourite people like I said at the end there he's a proper but you know he keeps in touch and he's true to what he says in the interview he doesn't have any social media I mean it always amazed us he was the only person I've ever worked with that doesn't have WhatsApp because he doesn't really want to be contacted he doesn't really want to be on groups he doesn't really want to be getting messages and he would just be so like chilled going if people want me people will find me I'm not I don't want to be going on Instagram and doing all that sort of stuff he said I'm not interested he's a proper just a proper family man and I remember actually one of my early games with him were at Old Trafford and I just got to know him when I was talking to him about the trauma of the knee injury and we didn't talk too much in that conversation about it but And, you know, he tried to come back for two years and lasted just a few minutes.

1:45:04I know you were at the game. You know, he saw his career slipping away from him. He definitely felt let down by certain people that weren't there to make the right decisions to protect him and protect his career. And I remember a United fan leaning over, like the railings at the front, Old Trafford going, Owen, Owen, Owen, till he turned around and the guy went, you're a disgrace. You're a disgrace. You just took a salary from this club and gave us nothing. You're a disgrace. You should be embarrassed. Give the money back. And no one just looked at me like, and I sort of feel like people have had him wrong for so long.

1:45:42You know, he didn't want to not be involved at United. He didn't want to end his career in the way he did. You could see the emotion in his eyes. He still wells up about it. And let's just all live with a bit more empathy and understanding, you know, that people are doing their best. Sometimes things don't work out, but I hope that this conversation is a reminder of the talents and the mindset and the mentality that Owen Hargree's brought to the game. Yeah, definitely. I loved it. Cheers, mate. Thanks, mate. Thank you so much to Owen for his time on the show. If you enjoyed that conversation, we're full of great footballers in the High Performance Archives.

1:46:15John Obi Mikel, Olly Watkins, Andy Cole, Phil Jones, Scott McTominay, Jill Scott, Rio Ferdinand, Stephen Gerrard, Robin Van... I mean, what a list. This is a hell of a team. Stephen Gerrard, Robin Van Persie, Kieran Trippier, Edwin Van der Sar, Just before we wrap up, Damien, when you read that list, it's like a reminder of the ridiculous number of amazing footballers that we've spoken to over the last few years on this show, don't you think? Yeah, definitely. And just the depth of insight. If you calculate how many years of experience these people have had, there's hundreds of years worth of wisdom that's shared freely that anyone can access whenever they wish to.

1:46:50And if you want to access it, the best way to do that is downloading the High Performance app. You can then just search for those episodes in the app and you will also get early access to the latest episodes from Damien and myself. Don't forget, hit the follow button, keep on listening, and we'll see you soon for another episode of High Performance.

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1:48:24Performance to start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org. Hey, what's up, subscribers? Welcome back to the channel. So which variety of Dunkin' at-home coffee is your fave? Original blend, French vanilla, or hazelnut? Drop a comment. What are you... Oh, uh, this is what I do when I'm home alone. Drink Dunkin' Original Blend or pretend you're an influencer? Eh, both. Want a cup? Hey, let's do a taste test for the audience. Okay, how's this? The rich, smooth taste of Dunkin' at home is unmatched. Nice. You're a natural. The home with Duncan is where you want to be.