Paul Smith: Do things which are right, not that are easy (E247)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. living from this room, we'd have to change the product that's in it because people didn't really like what we got in it. There's so many reference points about what you think you should do. Oh, he's got a Porsche. Oh, he's got two houses. Oh, blimey, he's just floated on the stock market. Don't worry about it. You're alive. He just came in the shop one day in Covent Garden, and I was upstairs, and then I heard all this racket outside, and then I looked down, there was all these girls, you know, like on the street, you know. And they said, oh, David Bowie's in the shop.

1:05So I said, oh, that's fantastic. Because I loved, you know, I loved his work. I went down and said hello. And then we just slowly built up a relationship, you know, a friendship. That is fashion designer and businessman Sir Paul Smith. And this is High Performance, the show that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside our high-performance expert, Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, struggles, and successes of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged, and to grow. And I'm really excited to bring you this conversation today because we live in a world where everybody wants everything immediately.

1:43We live in a world of fast fashion. We live in a world of short social media content. We live in a world of your food delivery arriving 15 minutes after you've placed an order on your phone. we live in a world where we have no patience particularly when it comes to success and that's why you need to listen to this conversation with a man who has been a business leader for decades he is a man who played the long game he's a man who prioritized patience he's a man who went gently he's a man who went steadily he's a man who just made the right decisions at the right times And it wasn't just about doing things right.

2:22It was also and remains about doing the right thing. I think every young business leader, young entrepreneur, young artist should be listening to what Sir Paul Smith has to say. So let's get straight to it and welcome the fascinating Paul Smith to High Performance. And before we get going, here's a really quick message from our invaluable supporters who allow us to give you this content for free.

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4:37Thank you very much for joining us. It's lovely. It's great to be here. It's very posh. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I saw you got bananas upstairs. I mean, no expense spared. Bananas are going to go up in price, apparently. We can't call it high performance and not provide bananas for guests. That's true. And on that theme, what do you think of when I say high performance? It's something that I don't identify with at all because I've never really thought about high performance apart from when I was a bike rider from the age of 12 to 18. I was a racing cyclist. So it wouldn't be high performance, but it was obviously aware of doing well.

5:15I don't really tend to use words like that. I don't know why. And work-wise, I've never ever thought about anything other than just having a nice day, really, and hoping to still be in business, which luckily I am 54 years later. So maybe high performance for you is remaining humble after everything that's happened. Yeah, I think so. But again, completely naturally, yeah. I work in the shop on a Saturday, in one of my shops, because I love working in shops. And a lady came in last week and she said, oh, you work in your shop? She said, is that to check up on people? And I said, you've got it absolutely wrong, absolutely wrong.

5:56It's completely the opposite. It's not about that at all. It's about meeting you and having a chat. and somebody from Oslo or somebody from Nottingham or wherever, you know. So I'm just a funny old sausage, really, you know. I'm a bit odd, you know, because I just like every day, you know. I'm a big everyday man. We've got a lovely sentence that says, every day is a new beginning. And I think that's helped us a lot, you know. I love that phrase, every day is a new beginning. Yeah. Like, where did that originate from? It just came from my head one day. And I just thought, you know, I meet lots and lots of, We're very close to students and young people from schools.

6:39I'd like to invite you both around to look at the building. We've got so much creativity in the building, and we get lots of students come. I see that they get really down, and they get really fed up, and they get frustrated. So I just sort of coined this phrase, every day is a new beginning. You say, you've had a not very good day, but tomorrow, come on. It's going to be all right. Let's get on with it. And you can turn it around all the time. Well, should we go back to the beginning? What is left sitting in front of us today of the Paul Smith that grew up in? Survival. I mean, keeping going in this bonkers world that we live in, because it has changed so enormously.

7:24I mean, I'm old enough to have witnessed so many sort of downturns in trade, but now it's just wars and mood and fast fashion and Instagram and so-called celebrity. And I really mean so-called. What do you mean? Yeah, so many people that are celebrities, but for a year or two years, and a real celebrity with somebody who was a famous person for the Stones or famous actors that just stood the test of time. So it's just very different, that's all. So it's just an ever-moving target. But there was something there about that example you offered, Paul, around your admiration for people that are consistently good, people that are consistently able to just show up and deliver.

8:18Well, it's your feet on the ground. I think it was Andy Warhol, wasn't it, who said, you know, everybody can be famous for 15 minutes, you know. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you get your time, but, you know, what I love and I'm impressed by is continuity. And I think, you know, feet on the ground, still relevant, still doing nice things, good manners, polite, get on with it, respect, learn to listen, learn when to talk, learn when to listen, to be interested, interesting, all those sort of cliche things. And as you're describing that, that sounds to me like there's a lot of hallmarks there of your own dad.

8:54We were speaking off camera, but when we were researching this, he's a pretty significant figure in your life. Would you be interested in telling us about him? Yeah, my dad and Pauline, really, and my wife, now my wife, they were the two reasons why I'm here today, really. I mean, one was when my father was, you know, when you go to an auntie's house on a Sunday and, you know, you're eight and you walk in the front room and you're like going like this around your dad's thigh, you know, because you're like, you know, all these cousins or whatever they're called, you know, and like in four minutes, my dad's got more laughing, you know, because he'll like pick up, oh, you've seen this, took this picture when I was in Bournemouth and, you know, look at that funny bird and then in two minutes, everybody was chilled, you know.

9:36So hopefully I've learned that. And certainly my business in Japan, which is quite substantial. I mean, I went there in 82 and there was almost no people from a different country there. So communicating through gesture or humor or body language or learning to have very short sentences rather than complicated sentences definitely helped me grow my business. That all came from my dad, all of it. And he was a photographer, is that right? He was an amateur photographer. And he was the founder member of the Beaston Camera Club, which is just outside of my hometown in Nottingham. And he built this mad darkroom in the attic, which was made from any wood.

10:22He was brilliant. He had a workshop outside in the garage. He never employed anybody to do anything, not because he was mean, but just because I couldn't do it myself. You know, electrics, painting, clean out the gutters, you know, whatever. Just diverse. I mean, when he was 92, I went to see him. And he died when he was 92 later in the year. But when I was leaving, I saw this thing on the wall by the front door. I said, oh, Dad, what's that? And he said, oh, don't look at that. I made myself a shoehorn because I couldn't get my shoes on. How many people would make themselves a shoehorn? They would buy a shoehorn from Woolworths for like 50 pence, but he'd made one out of aluminium and bent it and cut it.

11:11And would he have invited you into his workshop to come and see the process of what he was doing? Yeah, I learnt to solder when I was very young and woodwork. I love woodwork. I think a lot of that was to do with my hands, but the joy was going up the ladder into the attic, which was, you know, my mum was like, be careful up that ladder, you know, and you had to hook it down with a mop or something or other. It was all very odd. And then working with film and negatives. Am I allowed to lean over a minute? Of course. Sorry, I've got my blue bag. This is my camera. This is my first camera, Kodak Retinet.

11:52Kodak Retinet. I was 11 when I got that. Does this still work? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Is this a gift of your dad? This was from my dad when I was 11. And the most important thing which helped me enormously was this, which is the viewfinder, which when you look through a viewfinder, if I look at you there, I've got you in full face. If I look at there, I've just got half. So it teaches you to look and see. So this taught me as a designer later on in life. I realised I looked and saw. See, because that's a key phrase, isn't it? It's that Leonardo da Vinci quote that most people look without seeing.

12:34Yeah, they don't see. Most people eat without tasting. Yeah, people go to France and they go, yeah, oh, there's great pubs there. What about the fact that the Huffle Tower is made out of amazing girders or this is soft and this is smooth and this is hard and mixing rough and smooth and big and small. So, I mean, this was great. and also it's film. So now you go, you get the camera like that, take 40 pictures of your dinner for some reason and then there you, pocket money, 12 shots, you have to really get it close, really get it right and then wait for the film to come out, you know, before you knew whether they'd worked or not.

13:24One of the first things we mentioned was that you remain really humble. And it sounds like your parents were the same. I wonder how they computed your incredible success. I don't think my mum really ever knew what I did, really. I mean, and then my dad was really thrilled when I got the freedom of the city of Nottingham because I could take sheep across Trent Bridge. So can you tell us then, like one of your top tips for anyone listening to this about how do you learn to not just look at something but really see something? Remind yourself to look and see for a start. I mean, in this room, there's so many things that could inspire a piece of knitwear or anything, you know, the blue and the silver and, you know, tons of stuff.

14:07And the main thing is don't just go around with your eyes on the phone all the time. And, you know, that's one of the biggest problems now is that we're so addicted to the phone that we just don't really see anything anymore. We only see these 8 to 15 seconds snaps of something that's cost half a million quid to create. You know, an ad campaign that costs a million quid. And then what? So we don't look and see anymore. And how have you retained this? Because I've got young kids and it's magic that they can stand and look at a leaf or a stone for 10 minutes. And we don't ever do that because life drums that out of you.

14:53yet you still have got that almost childlike quality of seeing the magic in the mundane. That's the key word, childlike. If you come to my room, which I would like you to do, and bring the cameras because it's bonkers, but it's just full of toys and objects and racing jerseys, bicycles. People walk in and say, first of all, it's not childish. It's a childlike. This room is childlike because why did somebody do that? do that why is that got that shape because it fits in your hand better and that's how you that's how you balance that's how you balance the mug with that finger and that's how you hold it with that finger so why is a drink a water bottle got dimples in it because if you didn't it should just slip through your hands and fall on the floor so it's all about just looking and seeing and understanding and asking questions.

15:48Why have they done that? Kids' toys, I mean, if you've got children, kids' toys, you know, that's the hardest thing to entertain them, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, obviously you can do it with an iPad at the dinner table, but, you know, you can also entertain kids with a shoebox, you know, and some crayons, you know. I'd like to talk about a crucial moment in your life. when you were a cyclist and you had a crash. A true sliding doors moment for you. Yeah, it was, yeah. Well, I tried to stand up and the bone came through my thigh. So I thought, this is a problem. Why was that such a significant moment?

16:31I mean, why it was so significant was because I grew up, really. I was in hospital for many months. It was a hospital in Nottingham where you had a lot of people dying from coal mining accidents, motorbike accidents and car accidents, which is normal in every hospital. But then it was, you know, 16 people died while I was in, you know, you'd see the curtain go round and you were like, you know. Luckily, humour came out during that period because the left leg was bound in some sort of contraption, but the right leg was still. and I taught myself to pick up a spoon and eat my sherry trifle with my right foot.

17:19And I was nicknamed the praying mantis by all the nurses. So even humour came out there. But obviously I miss bike riding like crazy and my dad was so sweet because a lot of my mates were going there, coming to the hospital and they'd be saying what they'd done. I didn't realise, but it was really making me feel sad because I couldn't do it. And he must have had a word with them because they kept coming and suddenly they didn't mention bike riders. My sweet dad had mentioned that. But the key point was there were two other people in the hospital. One had had a motorbike accident, one a car accident.

18:01We all got let out at the same time. And one of them said, come on, let's keep in touch. We all, because we used to shout to each other. and the key point was the fact that one of them chose the Bell Inn in Nottingham, which is where all the art students went. And so architecture students, photography, fashion, whatever. And suddenly this world opened up. I remember meeting somebody and the guy said, I'm really into Wazli Kandinsky. Oh, good.

18:37And then I just went home and eventually threw a dictionary or something, or asked my dad, and it was a Russian artist and contemporary and amazing colours and expression through art. And then slowly, and they used to talk about the Bauhaus, which is a famous German art school, and I thought it was a local council estate. Something like, you know, the bare house or something. And so you learn, you know, suddenly this world opened up to me. I thought, I wonder if you can earn a living by doing something, you know, to do with design. One of the kids was, her dad was backing her with a little boutique.

19:17And so I said I'd help her. And then I started working in the shop. Well, I found the premises, decorated it, did the window dressing. I had to do something called a lease. So I helped her out and then I worked for us for six years. But halfway through that, I met Pauline, who was studying couture fashion in the Royal College of London, along with a lot of people that are now very famous, David Hockney, Peter Blake, who did the Sergeant Pepper album cover and lots of famous people. So it was a really good time at the Royal College. She was very connected to London, a Londoner. She got two children, which I didn't know at the time, I met her, I think, when it was my 21st birthday.

20:01And eventually, you know, we fell in love and she came to live with me. And instead of living with my mum and dad, I was living with two dogs, two cats and two kids and a lady from London who was very elegant and beautiful and special and still is. And so that was a big turning point. But the main thing as well, apart from the love, was she taught me about how to make clothes properly, not in a low-cost way, but how to construct clothes because she was doing couture fashion, which means making by hand, making to fit the body, understanding proportion, like in car racing and everything. You know, getting the flow right, getting the proportion of the pockets, the opening, how to put a pad in, when you stitch it inside, why it creates a roll on the jacket.

20:50So I got real proper first class training around the kitchen table, you know, which was brilliant. So she had an intense focus on the small things that made the big difference. Yeah, mother of pearl buttons in those days, which now you don't use because of climate change. and the way what pad stitching does and the pad stitching is where you stitch it inside and every time you pull the stitch you pull it a bit tighter and it creates the roll it creates the roll if you look at the low-cost one they press in the roll there's no pad stitching so you know all sorts of genius things that just meant that when we started our you know well first of all she said you know you've got so much energy and why don't you try and do your own little shop you know and of course i didn't realize that shops cost the money and we didn't have any money all her my main income was coming from pauline and i was earning a little bit but then i started working on my day off and getting earned 600 quid eventually over about three year period and then started um i i found a i found a room which i called a shop yeah because i couldn't afford a shop and it was a room with no windows and it was 12 foot square.

22:03Can I take you back to one of the early comments you made? What is intriguing to me is that you said that you grew up, that bike accident, you were almost like quite childlike and then the accident forced you to grow up and then I'm hearing about you very quickly had to assume lots of different identities. You become interested in fashion, you then become a father to two young children, you become a partner, then you become an entrepreneur. There's lots of different identities that you were having to adopt. And I'm interested in how did you let go of being Paul's racing cyclist to then start to assume all these other identities?

22:40I think it was just this curiosity I've got even to this day about how things are done, why things are done, how you can do. I suppose I had a competitive spirit. I've never thought about that, really. I mean, maybe there is high performance. I just don't use those words. It just means you're keen on doing okay. I mean, when Pauline and I first started our business, which is, you know, we'd be here for days to explain the intricacies of doing it. But, you know, it was just like, I wonder if you can earn a living doing this. Right. Yeah. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to earn a living doing design?

23:19But what was it about the world of fashion that appealed to you? I think it was having an idea from a blank sheet of paper and it turning into reality. It's really exciting. It's still exciting today, that is. You know, just having an idea. You know, I've never been impressed by conceptual art because conceptual art is about ideas. But I'm always more interested in ideas. Yes, fantastic. Okay, well, what about turning them into reality? As you know, with the job you do, I mean, the studio, the organisation, it's you know so the ideas are one thing but turning into reality it's so exciting you know if you have an idea you know in with my assistant designers now and then you see them on somebody like a year and a half later two years later and it's very nice but then there's really interesting research on this Paul that and it stems from the psychologist the Sixth Cent Mihaly I don't know if you've read about his stuff of slow and the science of creativity no I don't know and Well, he talks about three stages, and you've really eloquently described them.

24:28He talks about, first of all, having the energy. Yeah. Then it's the inspiration to get the idea. But then the pragmatism to then actually have the discipline to take that idea into concept. Yeah, and not being snobby about it, because in the early days, I wanted a shop. I couldn't afford a shop, it turned out. But every lunchtime, I used to go down to a tailor down the road and have my sandwich and watch him do the cutting and everything. and I learnt a lot from him as well as Pauline. And I kept saying, oh, Mr Hill, I'm so desperate for a shop. And, you know, they're like, there's the rent and then the lease.

25:05I don't really get it. And he said, there's a room at the back. Call it a shop. Have it. So I went down. There was this 12-foot square shop, a room, with a door down an alleyway. So it wasn't even onto the street. He let me have it free for like three months. Then it was 50 pence. Then it was a quid, I think. And that was it. But the key thing was that Pauline and I were making most of the clothes. Then I soon realised that actually this isn't going to work in Nottingham because in a way it was a bit too fashion or a bit ahead of its time or something or other. But Pauline had been to a lecture by Edward de Bono, the lateral thinker, and he said lots of interesting things.

25:52But one of the things he said was the job always changes you and you never change the job. So we were both thinking, well, how does that relate to us? And then we realised that if we were to earn a living from this room,

26:08we'd have to change the product that's in it because people didn't really like what we got in it. So then I decided that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I'd do anything that came along to earn money and have purity on the Friday and Saturday. And I've taught that to so many students. But if you only do no compromise, you go bust. But if you do it balanced with some other income through photography, through being a stylist, through designing fabric and learning. And then also the joy of that was learning by doing it. But then there's something there that you're saying about it's like that really sweet balance of having an ego to not compromise, but having no ego to be willing to do whatever it takes to do it.

26:55Yeah, I did really basic jobs. I mean, you know, selling fabric and, you know, driving the van and, you know, doing all sorts of things like that. Very, very down-to-earth things. But I was just keen. Everything was a joy for me. I mean, I must be a bit odd or something because, you know, I'd drive like for hours, you know, to Scotland to see if this place would make some shirts for me and they'd say, no. and you drive four hours back because there's no mobile phone and no sat-nav or anything. And you're just like, oh, well. Can we talk about the balance between you and Pauline? I'm interested.

27:31We know that you obviously bring hyper-energy and big ideas. She's completely opposite. So tell us about that balance. She's very shy. She's very at ease with her own being. You know, she's very at ease with silence. I'm useless with silence. And she's read Isaiah Berlin. She's read Sartre. She's read Proust, you know. She's just completely different to me. That's probably why it works, you know, because it's a balance of all the things I'd like to be, but I'm useless at. And she's, you know, so she can tell me a little snippet of Proust and that'll do me, you know, rather than six books, you know.

28:17In a business sense, how was that relationship? Because she set a very high standard of what, that you do things which are right, not which are easy. Right. Yeah. Do things which are correct. Did you need someone to remind you? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, if I could earn a few, Bob, you know, then I probably would have done it because it was just in my spirit, you know. And you did very well to maintain a loving relationship. I mean, from what we can see, you seem to be in love with Pauline the day you met, maybe even more so. Yeah. We met in 67. Wow. What's the secret? That's a long time. Give and take, you know, understanding both people's point of view, knowing when to listen, knowing when to talk, you know, to be interested and interesting, watch the parts.

29:06And is she okay with the fact that it's called Paul Smith, not Pauline Smith? Yeah, very much so. Yeah, she never wanted that. It was never an issue. No, no. And also halfway in the 80s, she suddenly said, I don't want to be involved in business at all. I want to just go and study history of art. And then as a mature student, she managed to get into the Slade School of Art as a painter. So she's dead special, you know, really special. And if she just happens to be listening to this when she's painting one day, what would you most want to thank her for? Keeping my feet on the ground, really. and, you know, just continuity of love and, you know, no ups and downs, you know, just calm, you know, the whole time.

29:50But you've got to work at it all the time, you know. So Pauline sounds like sometimes the advice she gives is sparing but on point. Is there one piece of advice she's ever given you that you can still remember now? I think the thing she's always reminded me is that just remember what you really love in your business. And it's not money and it's not expansion or that's why the two words at the beginning were more problem for me because it's always been having a nice day really, you know. So I mean, so working in my shop on a Saturday, designing the clothes, of course, working with my foundation, helping young people that are coming up.

30:35And so she's always been a real backer of all those things, you know. I really want to talk about how you went from that shop to where you are today. And I'm especially interested in how you focus on having a nice day every day and then you manage to build a global business. Because I think most people think, well, you've either got to be a ruthless business person and expand at a rate of knots, or you can be a nice person and have a nice day. Yeah. You've managed to do both. I'd love to know how. Well, the thing is, it's never been like a rocket. People in interviews often say, when was the turning point?

31:10When did you suddenly realise you've made it? And I said, never. It's always been very gentle, very within our means, never borrowed money, always just worked very gently because the goal was just to be together, and enjoy, enjoy life. So now, unfortunately, you guys, especially your age group, not you personally, but you know, now there's so much, there's so many reference points about what you think you should do. Oh, he's got a Porsche. Oh, he's got two houses. Oh, blimey. He's, he's just floated on the stock market. Don't worry about it. You're alive. Was this ever about getting rich and having a global business?

31:58absolutely not at all. Never, never, never. Never. I mean, never. I mean, you know, I could flog it today and get some money, but why would I want a yacht? I hate yachts. I don't want to go fishing. Was there a big plan? I wish there was I mean I've got I've got let's say 10 I mean I've got lots of staff but I've got 10 sort of key staff and right now it is to be frank it's tough right now so now over the next 2 or 3 years I will have to make decisions on you know management or money or whatever but that's you know I've been in business for 54 years so it's not bad to be in you know having to think that now.

32:47You did describe earlier that you do have that competitive instinct, whether that's... Yeah, I think that's survival. I don't think it's really winning and losing. I think it's just that you're aware that you've got a lot of staff that have got school fees and mortgages. And, you know, so your competitive spirit is staying relevant in a world called fashion where there's so much utter nonsense all the time and so many fake moments which is all to do with throwing masses of money at something and promoting it.

33:24Back to the longevity thing. A lot of people are completely turned on by the fact that they start a business, it's cool, they get some cash in, make it bigger and still cool, sell it on. That's what they want. and absolutely no problem with that at all. But it's not what works for me, that's all. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data.

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35:57So if we came into your studios or your offices, what are the kind of behaviors? Come in. Yes, we'd love to, but I'm interested if you would describe to us what are the kind of behaviours that we'd experienced that almost captures the culture? Please and thank you. Opening doors. If somebody's got a tray of drinks, you open the door. If there's rubbish on the floor, you pick it up. You learn to listen. You say you get people's point of view. You remember birthdays, if you can, or like this morning, the girl on reception, who's a sweetheart, she writes a little log. I said, oh, look, is that your pencil case?

36:37It was like brimming with, so I said, I'll get you a new one, I've got one upstairs. I went up, found the pencil case, went down and gave it to her and she was so thrilled and it took four minutes, you know. Don't worry about it, it's so easy. So you lead with example, not with rules? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And how do you hire the right people to fit into the company? That's hard, obviously, because you get a lot of people who want to come and it's hard in three minutes, isn't it? Or five minutes, ten minutes. It's hard, but we've got a good HR department and now they've been with us a long time, so they sort of get what sort of personality you want.

37:20My first member of staff in 1850, when I started, was a zoologist. So I thought, perfect, perfect qualifications for a boutique owner. He was with me for like 30 years. Really? Yeah. So why did you go with that? Because most people would say... He was a nice bloke. Brilliant. And he talked to me about counting nudibranchs in the North Sea, and I have no idea to this day what the heck he was talking about. But I thought, he's all right.

37:54So we're talking about your internal culture there, but as you've scaled the business, you've had to go into business with lots of other stakeholders. And when we interviewed James Timpson, the retailer, he... He's a very good man. Yeah, and he spoke to us how one of the lessons he's learned is not to do business with people he doesn't feel he could trust. Correct, absolutely correct. I get offered lots of collaborations with big brands and mostly go back to Pauline saying, do things which are right, not which are easy. they say well you can make three million quid out of this and I say yeah but I don't want to you know make a whatever it is a phone or that's you know made in somewhere or you know I don't you know that's not true no no of course but what is your criteria for trusting somebody well you just first of all whether you like that you get on with them you know just whether you you like their body language the way they talk and you know and if it's too aggressive then And it worries me straight away.

38:58I just don't feel comfortable with it. If it's to do with, we really like your stuff, what you've done, so what sort of things? And you realise if you don't watch it, they don't really like your stuff at all. They've never, yeah. Oh, did you remember that shop I had then? Wish I didn't have a shop there anyway. Has instinct been important then? Yeah, gut reaction, instinct, body language. How did you learn to listen to that? Yeah, I don't really know. That's probably my father, isn't it? The world is so aggressive and so fast-moving and I think you don't need to, you know, you can enjoy the sunshine.

39:40Do you see, I don't know if you've seen my latest Instagram picture, but there's a suit I've done with all these diagonal lines across it and that was sitting in bed one morning and there's sun coming through the Venetian blind. So I just got a snap of it and it became, yeah, so it's not, it doesn't have to be rocket science, you know, and that's just enjoying the sun. I love this idea that, you know, you are, and I feel it now, I feel the energy sitting here with you, the humour, the, you know, going off in all sort of manner of different directions. I suppose what's interesting is that's exciting and fun to be in that head, I imagine.

40:16At times maybe it's tiring as well. But then there also has to be the things that you listen to and the things that you ignore, right? I'm wondering how you work out, that's a great idea, it's going to turn into something, or actually that's just my brain keeping busy and I'll ignore that. Yeah, that's, I suppose, back down to instinct, I should imagine, yeah. And also knowing what you can cope with and what you can't cope with and whether it fits into what your overall theory is, really. I mean, generally speaking, we make clothes and we're interested in art and furniture. and my shop in Mayfair has art and furniture in it and all our shops have big, what we call art walls.

40:57So you've got these sorts of perimeters that you work around all the time and that's just a natural thing of things you've enjoyed over the years, I think. But how do you slow down to be able to process the busy ideas that your brain's constantly throwing at you to discern what's valuable and what's not? Yeah. I suppose good stuff around me. You know, I've got my personal assistant. She's been with me for a long, long time. She's fantastic at, you know, filtering things that I should do and shouldn't do and my diary and everything. What's the criteria she uses to help you do that? I suppose experience of being with me for so long that she's just, you know, worked out what I like, what works for me, and probably some of the more financial guys say, well, he don't need to be in that meeting.

41:52He don't do sums. Is that right? Probably. I don't know, I just made that up, but yeah, probably. We've got these lovely mugs. Oh, yeah. With the signature Paul Smith stripe. Let's talk then about inspiration. Can you pinpoint the day that the stripes became your signature? I think it was, I'm going to get my bag out now, boys, if that's all right, the rattle. Go for it. Oh, God, I've got apple in here. Is that lunch? Yeah, cheese sandwich. This is how we do the stripes, which is quite interesting, which is I've got a piece of white card, I get a piece of white card, and then I've got drawers full of yarn, and then we get the yarn and wind it around the white card.

42:45and build up the stripes. And the reason why we do it like this is because yarn is three-dimensional, whereas if you did it on the computer, everything's flat. And obviously, if things are three-dimensional, it means that they reflect, the colours reflect on each other. So you can get a more accurate stripe, a combination of stripes by doing it in this very old-fashioned, traditional way, which is called windings. And I started, I did, for many years, I had to use stock fabrics because we're a small business. And they were always very traditional colours. And then in the early 90s, to answer your question, the business was big enough to be able to do special fabrics.

43:30So by doing it with this, I came up with one combination with 28 colours in it. And I thought, it looks absolutely fabulous. sent it to the printers in Como in Italy and they said you're absolutely out of your mind we can't do 28 colours redo it again with 14 colours so we did it in 14 colours and we showed it it was a spring collection because we do spring collections and winter collections spring summer autumn winter and it was a spring collection and it sold very well it was a shirt just a shirt then the next season i think it was harrods came along and said where's that stripe and i said i just did it for spring and they said no we want it again and so we made it again for them and then the rest as they say is history because it was so popular it just kept being asked for every time first of all it was a shirt and then it was you know other things in knitwear or whatever.

44:29Now we use it a lot more carefully. We just do it all over, but we use it as a trim, really. So it came by chance, really. Was there pressure then to recreate the magic? Like, it's only your eyes, isn't it? Yeah, it was just my love of colour, because colour is very optimistic. I mean, it seems a very odd thing to say when I'm sitting here in the navy blue suit. But, you know, I love colour, not necessarily for me, but I love contradiction, you know, like the wrong socks with a posh suit or colour for an actor who's on the red carpet, which we've done a lot recently for all the awards. So you just, you know, it's just using things carefully.

45:13So the stripe has been very popular, luckily, yeah, and that's how it came about, you know. I've probably got more magical things in here, you know. Go on, what else is in your bag? I don't know. Let's see what else. Oh, I've got some socks for you two boys. Oh, that's very kind. Thank you. Because we sell a few socks. That's smart. We've got my mate David with this little naughty man poking his nose out. That's me. Is that you? Yeah. While this photo's out then, let's talk about your relationship with David. That's fantastic. When did it all begin? I suppose I always get a bit muddled with dates.

45:52Was it late 70s, early 80s, wasn't it, I think, Bowie? Right, yeah, yeah. He just came in the shop one day in Covent Garden. And I was upstairs and then I heard all this racket outside and then I looked down and there was all these girls, you know, like on the street, you know. And I rang down and said, what's going on? They said, yeah, they said, oh, David Bowie's in the shop. So I said, oh, that's fantastic. Because I loved, you know, I loved his work. I went downstairs and said hello, and then we just slowly built up a relationship, you know, a friendship. One of the lovely things that particular time was downstairs in our shop in Covent Garden, there's three changing rooms in a row and a mirror.

46:35And my friend's son was 18, and he wanted his first suit for university. So he was in the shop, and he was in this first changing room like that, and he came out with a suit on to show me and his dad. And this guy came out of this changing room and looked and said, you look great, and it was David. So it was David Bowie coming out of this changing room, looking at my friend's 18-year-old, who was standing there, and the boy went... He couldn't get his breath, you know. So it was a lovely story. And then David, then we just built up a friendship from there, and that was a photo shoot, and he's wearing all Paul Smith and I, of course, tried to get in on the act.

47:20It's a great photo. What did you learn from him? Curiosity. He used to love to come into my room. He used to call me Smithy and he'd say, Smithy, why have you got that book? Why have you got those things? Where's that from? He was always asking questions about things. Very curious, which is why he was a chameleon and why he had so many different lives, I suppose, and why his words were so interesting, yeah, because he was just a curious guy. He liked a cup of tea. Yeah, I mean, I've had, you know, I've been blessed over the years to meet lots of interesting, well-known people. Paul McCartney made me a cheese sandwich once and Paul Weller made me a cup of tea.

48:06You know what I say? And have you seen a common thread with all these people that you've met? Cheese and... Well, I've got to say that. There's something very pragmatic. Is there anything that you think, like, that you can give us a window into their world of, actually, this is what I found made them special or unique? I mean, there's a lot of, in all of that world, there's a lot of unnecessary ego. But the people I tend to be drawn to, or they tend to be drawn to me, seem to be a bit more, you know, normal people. I mean, obviously, they can never be that normal. because they get inundated with people wherever they go and whatever.

48:51I mean, and some of them have just ended up just retiring and getting out of the limelight because it doesn't really suit them. You know, like Daniel Day-Lewis, who's a good mate of mine, and he's just retired. He didn't like all the stuff that came with having to promote movies and be out. I suppose it's back to what Pauline doesn't like, which is inane conversation. There's really interesting concepts I wanted to explore with you, which is called enroved cognition. When I was researching this, it was the first time I'd ever come across the phrase. Psychologists say that how you dress can enhance how you feel and therefore how you perform.

49:32And I'm interested in what tips you'd give for us, but also for our listeners, on how do you dress smartly to enhance? I think, obviously, one of the things that you get older for a start is that you shouldn't try to dress like a young person. You should dress appropriately to your age and to your size as well. Because there's a northern expression, mutton dressed as lamb, which means you're dressing inappropriately for your either job, your character or age. And you should always dress for comfort and practicality, I think. you know, don't worry too much about fashion. I mean, the bulk of what I sell around the world is very nice, easy-to-wear clothes that are just simple, you know.

50:22Because you have fashion shows twice a year, you have to have clothes in the show that are more attention-seeking. Right. Because if you just showed what really sold, everybody goes, it's a white shirt, you know. was so just to dress appropriately i mean ideally know your character know your job you know you guys presumably don't have to ever think you need to wear suits because you know job is more relaxed which is absolutely fine you know i personally like suits because i find them very practical yeah i mean it was mad in covid i actually was in my building on my own for 16 weeks and I wore a suit every day and it never occurred to me that I was wearing a suit every day.

51:08I was just wearing what I always wear, you know. So, you know, you've got somewhere for your specs, somewhere for your keys, somewhere for your notebook and pen, which I love, notebooks and pens and, you know, and our suits are very comfortable. They work, you know. And you were still going to work throughout COVID. Yeah, every day. You still go to work now. Yeah, every day. Every day. Yeah. You've been going for so many years. Yeah. Why? Why keep going? Because the alternative for me is not an alternative. You know, I don't, the only thing I could see me doing if I didn't go to work every day would be working with my foundation, which will be, you know, for the next generation.

51:47And that will be more to do with, you know, just getting energy from youth and giving experience to youth. But, you know, you have to come with your crew to the studio and then you'll know why I come every day. Because it's not, you should do another one that is just odd. That's not your typical podcast issue. And the energy, you still have the energy. I mean, you were telling me this morning you're out of bed at five o 'clock. Yeah. I was swimming at five o 'clock. What does a day look like for you then? I swim at five, between five and 5.30 every day. Getting to work around six every day, which is normally just a few of the cleaners in.

52:30My first staff, if they want to, can come in at 7.30. A couple of the designers like doing that because they've got kids and they leave early. Then the first thing I do, normally put a bit of vinyl on. Thedonious Monk, I think it was, today. And I've got this mad new one I'm listening to. It's a leaf blower called Dilson de Silva. He plays the eucalyptus leaf. Sound finlessly to that. Yeah, it's incredible, absolutely incredible. When you come, you'll hear it. Do you ever fear that you will run out of inspiration? Never. I could keep going. It's making the inspiration turn into reality that's the hard thing in today's, you know, very, very, in a world that is dominated by big brands, you know.

53:26Tell us then how you see the world and the things you're excited about. But I think also we should cover the things that you're in pain about. Well, I think what's so interesting, I think, and I don't know whether you guys agree with this, but there's so many big corporations now that there's such a monopoly in certain categories around the world, in fashion, for sure, but in other industries. And it's really tough for a young creator or young studio or young director to just get the foot in the door because there's such a lot of power that the big brands have. I think if I was 18 again, I definitely would be disturbed more about that, you know, the fact that the world is run by 40 companies or something, probably, probably more.

54:21So I think that's the thing that is disappointing, the fact that being... When Paulie and I started our business, the idea was that you had an idea in your head and your heart and you hoped somebody liked it. That was it. It was not like we're going to build a business and it's going to... Now that's not... It's all about you get some money, you roll it out. Every business seems to immediately do a fundraising round within two minutes. And yet you're sitting here with this incredible legacy, never having had to do that. No, I know. I don't know how. And there's a lot of fakery around as well, I think, these days.

55:02It's hard to know what to trust now. Oh, so much so. I mean, so much so. Because so many people get paid to do things. I mean, the whole world of influencers never used to exist, did it, before? What's the risk in your world with this domination of influencers and paid opportunities? Well, it's just disappointing, isn't it? You used to wear a designer because you like the designer. Now, do you wear it because you think you ought to wear it or do you wear it because you're picking up between£5 ,000 and half a million quid to wear it? And, you know, fashion shows have become like these massive events where people have flown in from around the world and paid for sit on the front row.

55:49And, you know, it's just a very different world to what I appreciate and what I enjoy. I mean, some of the students you get in are just so great. You know, you get so much energy from them. And I think one of the joys of my foundation is that it's such a normal, we're so normal that they can ask questions that they're scared to ask other people. Is that your legacy, the foundation, do you think? I think so, yeah. Yeah, I think so. So what are the key messages you teach these young people that either are in your foundation or that will listen to this about how they can go and thrive and have a rich life?

56:28Well, you've got to know your stuff. I mean, I've started this. my first big thing is this residency in Smithfield where I've managed to get six studios free of charge through the Greater London Authority and a development company where six students, there'll be lots of students that apply and then six of them will get a studio free of charge for a year. So that's good, but that's not the point. The point is I'm getting mentorship for them. So I've managed to get lawyers, lawyers, designers, creative people, press people to give their time, an hour, two hours, 40 hours of mentoring in one year to these students.

57:27because the design bit is almost the, it's not the easy bit, but it's just only such a part of, it's not you guys doing this. I mean, this is just such a fraction of it. Why does it matter to you to reach down and lift up the next generation? I mean, because when I was 21, I met Pauline and I left school at 15, wanted to be a bike rider and was a bit thick. You know, so, you know, like, nobody taught me. I thought VAT meant vodka and tonic. So, you know, so, you know, like, I wouldn't mind a bit of a helping hand, you know. Yeah. It would be cool. How do you feel when you meet these young people that think they have all the time in the world and you're here having seen 77 years go by?

58:16Yeah. Well, yeah, just keep your feet on the ground and enjoy every day and remember every day is a new beginning, and just enjoy every day. Look and see, absorb, camaraderie, friendship, observation, normal things, normal things. Keep yourself fit, healthy, eat good grub. Would you ever retire? Sorry, what's that word?

58:46Amazing. Before we finish, we've got some quick fire questions. Yes, sure. Oh, I've got one more thing to show you. Oh, yeah, great. the famous pink wall oh yeah is this the LA studio yeah the LA shop the reason why I'm interested in this right is because I know you're extremely modest we've established that but I think where you're also fantastically smart is that you understand not only the power of collaboration but the power of staying connected to what's relevant now whether that is people who are well known people who are on the up or a store that is the most Instagrammed spot in the whole of California even more than the Hollywood sign.

59:23Yeah. This doesn't happen by accident, does it? I mean, as it happens, it did happen by accident. I mean, I was sitting around my table in Covent Garden with my, because we design our own shops. We've got in-house architects, which you'll see if you come. And it's lovely. And I remember going to Los Angeles and it's 40 miles across and every road is straight, and this is 8 ,660 Melrose Avenue or something. So I thought you've got to build a sore thumb, really. You need something that, you know, because hardly anybody walks, they all drive. So you've got to build something that's really eye-catching.

1:00:01The bit I was, I suppose, clever on is the fact I love this architect called Luis Baragon from Mexico, who I was aware of designed buildings that were in bright colours. So I went to Mexico with Pauline to look at his work and then we built this sort of pink shoebox, which, as you quite rightly said, now is the most Instagram building in California. I noticed somebody's told me that on Google, which I've now adjusted, when you go look on Google Map, it just says the pink wall. It didn't say bloody Paul Smith. So now it says Paul Smith as well. Paul Smith, pink wall. What I love about this, though, is actually everything about it is wrong.

1:00:42The Paul Smith name is so small. There's no great big windows, and everyone would say you need windows in your store. It hasn't got a great big glass door with a revolving entranceway, which is what everyone has these days. It's the antithesis of every modern store. And I would love to know, where does the bravery come from to write the cheque to do something like this? Less is more. Sometimes less is more. People try too hard. Too many adjectives in a sentence. It's amazing. Thank you very much. Right, quick fire questions. Yeah. The first one. The three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you should really buy into.

1:01:27The things that you want in your world. Bad manners, greed, power. Yeah, is that three? Those are the three things that you detest the most. I hate, yeah. Well, there's so much of all those things at the moment. What advice would you give to a teenage Paul growing up in Nottingham, just starting out? Any teenage person, just get as much experience as you can, work on your Saturday, doing anything, don't matter, work in a pub. You know, if you haven't got the ice and the first person wants gin and tonic with ice, then you've failed. Just learn about organisation, learn about body language. One of the problems I worry about is looking at a screen all day and that you'll probably have a problem with eye contact in body language, you know, that's a worry.

1:02:18Your number one piece of advice to someone who wants to dress well? Well, don't try too hard is the main thing. You know, keep it simple and know yourself. You know, if you've got a strong sense of humour, yes, or a strong character, yes, you could wear a colourful tie or a bright coloured sweater or something like that. But if you're more junior, then navy blue works. Very good. What's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why? Give yourself time to answer a question. So take a breath. So somebody says, I've had this idea. And it's blah, blah, blah. And you say, that's really good.

1:03:00Can I think about it? And I'll come back to you tomorrow. And most of the time you say no to the idea. What's your biggest strength? What's your greatest weakness? Biggest strength? Weakness is I'm not very confrontational. I'm too much of a wimp. And strength is, I suppose, communication, really, which I got from my dad. And your final message, Paul, what's your one golden rule for living a high-performance life? Keep your feet on the ground. Nobody cares how good you used to be. Wonderful. look to sit here and hear the amazing story, the wonderful pulse of wisdom, but the biggest thing that shines through is your humility and so many people are fighting to tell the world that they've got the answers to everything and actually, what you said to us is just be a good person, enjoy the journey and look at what can happen.

1:03:54That's too short, you know. It's easy, it's so much easier to be nice, isn't it?

1:04:03Damien. Jake. Incredible energy. total honesty and just like it's hard to describe what I mean by this but I mean like what an artistic conversation do you know what I mean like what a creative conversation that was yeah he was a textbook example of I referenced it when we spoke to him around Sikszentmihalyi the psychologist that most people know around flow actually flow was a study of creativity how do creative people do it and what he described was the balance that's always there you need energy but you also need that quiet time to reflect You need that balance of being almost very creative, but then very pragmatic.

1:04:41And I think that was what we got from Paul there, just a very creative soul, but somebody who's constantly with his eye, how do I make this a reality? Also someone who I think is totally plugged into the modern world. And you know sometimes when you have the older generation talking, it feels a little bit like they're rallying against the way the modern world has gone. And you just think, oh, you haven't kept up to date with things. Whereas he's not only fully up to date with things, but I think his message that you don't have to do things the way that it's now trendy, should we call it, to do it is really important.

1:05:15You don't have to grab investment for your business immediately. You don't have to grow globally within the first two years. You don't have to raise funds. You don't have to be greedy. You don't have to be in a rush. You can trust your instincts. You can just enjoy every single day and still have a successful business. and so much of his advice rallies against all of the modern perceived wisdom that's out there. I think it's refreshing. Yeah, definitely. But it's not sexy. You know what I mean? Being kind isn't as sexy as sometimes being seen as aggressive or strident. You know, being greedy or ambitious isn't seen as more sexy than just actually being patient and building slowly.

1:05:54And I think there was a lot of what you might term old school values there, but that are consistent in so many of our guests about do the right thing, not the thing that looks right to the public. Just do the right thing that's for you. I think there's something really powerful about hearing those values. And if you could enjoy every day, like that line he said about, I just enjoyed every day. Every day is a fresh start. What a brilliant way to live. Every day is a fresh start. Enjoy that day and see where it takes you. This not looking at life with a five-year plan or a 10-year plan or a 20-year plan.

1:06:25Absolutely brilliant. and I could have spoken to him for hours. And I loved, by the way, his little bag of stuff that he brought with him with all of his little things in there. It's magic, man. Well, when we wrote about that in the book How to Change, where we spoke about that first example was around those art students that 6th and Mihaly went and studied and it was the ones that actually looked at things of how can I solve a problem with this rather than the ones that how can I just make something that looks good were the ones that sustained a long career in the world of art. And I think that's a good example of a really creative soul that's still looking to create rather than just looking to do things that look nice on Instagram.

1:07:06And he's never heard of the word retirement, and I'm not surprised. Thanks a lot, mate. I loved it. Thank you. So that brings us to the end of this conversation with Sir Paul Smith. Don't forget that you can get plenty more from High Performance on our app with loads of exclusive content to get you even closer to your own version of High Performance. You can also watch these conversations on YouTube as well. But the most important thing I just want to say is thank you. We have had an incredible last few weeks with more subscribers, more listeners, more viewers, more interest in this show than ever before.

1:07:38And we know that it's down to you for sharing the lessons you're learning from these shows. So please pass this conversation to someone who you think needs to hear it. And as for you, remain humble, curious, empathetic. And I'll see you again soon.

1:08:20The Sausage McMuffin with Egg

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