Phil Jones: Overcoming Abuse Online & My Man Utd Story (E292)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. gives me shivers now like he looked into my eyes and he said Phil are you a winner son that was the voice of footballer Phil Jones who joins us on this episode of High Performance the show that explores the stories and ideas of some of the most extraordinary people in the world I'm Jay Comfrey and like a lot of you I'm just someone who's fascinated by becoming a better version of me and I'm Damien Hughes I'm an expert in high performance I've worked with teams like the England football team, Scotland rugby and loads of other professional sports teams right across the world, as well as with leading business people to help them understand how to get the very best out of themselves and others.

1:09In this podcast, we discuss both how people achieve great things and the why that drives them. So our guest today played over 200 times for Manchester United. He represented his country and you're about to hear the truth from him. The truth from a man that so many people have an opinion about and I'll be really honest this is a painful and difficult conversation at times but it's also a really important one as Phil reveals the true toll of the injuries that defined the latter part of his career. We hear the truth about what criticism does to someone and how Phil really felt let down and embarrassed by one particular manager at Manchester United but crucially he'll also describe how he's now in a place where he feels real pride and contentment when he looks back on his career.

1:55You know what? We can't thank Phil enough for choosing High Performance to share for the first time his story in his words. And I think it's going to be a really important listen for an awful lot of people as we welcome Phil Jones to High Performance.

2:15Phil, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm so pleased to welcome you to High Performance. You're someone who so many people have an opinion about, but I want to hear from you. This is your platform really to share your own story. I'd love to start by finding out where you're at today. Tell us about the Phil Jones that sits in front of us right now. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind of a career. It didn't end the way I want it to end. It was difficult for me towards the latter stages of my career especially. But you know, I'm fine. I'm doing fine. I'm mentally good. I'm physically good. And I'm looking forward to the future.

2:51I'm positive about it. We speak so often on this show about the fact that the one thing we do control right is our reaction to the world. So I'd love to know your reaction to your career. Is it one where you think, I'm unfortunate because without injuries it could have been so much more? Or do you reflect on your boyhood club, 12 years at Man United, over 200 appearances for one of the greatest clubs in the world, so you actually feel fortunate for the career you had? It's a good question to be fair. I think I fluctuate between the two quite regularly. There's certain times I'll walk down the street or I'll wake up in the morning and think, if only, if only I'd have been a bit more fortunate or if only I'd have been a bit more stronger up here than I was towards the latter end of my career.

3:35If I'd have had that towards the latter end of my career, throughout my career, I think, I'm not saying I would have been an unbelievable player, but I think I'd have been a top player. And it's unfortunate I didn't have those tools back then to deal with certain aspects around the game. But then on the flip side, I do look at the moments that I've shared on the pitch with some of the great players, the managers I've played under, the trophies that I've won along the way, and to think back as a kid thinking, I never even dreamt, you know, being on your wildest dreams of playing for my boyhood called Blackburn was the best thing that could have ever happened to me.

4:11My dad used to carry me over the turnstiles and you'd sit there at half-time with your cup of tea and a biscuit and watch all the players that you grew up watching. And then to think that I would make my debut for Blackburn was incredible. And then to obviously go on to play for United and have a career at United, maybe didn't play as many games that I would have liked and everyone is aware of that. But then I do look back and think, yeah, I'm proud of myself. I'm proud of where I come from and proud of who I am today. So why do you go to a place of mental health, not physical health, when it comes to reflecting on your career.

4:48Like, I put down the issues in your career to physical injuries. So why do you question whether you are mentally strong enough? Well, I think the physical injuries made me mentally weak at times. It made me question myself. Obviously, people will ask, you know, he's always injured and he's always out with this and that. And it's just as though that they think that I wake up one morning and think, oh, yeah, I fancy being injured today. Fancy going in and just saying I'm injured. Like, I'm not that guy. I'm professional, I'm honest, I'm humble. I don't take myself too seriously. And I tried everything I could.

5:25I left no stone unturned. Whichever shirt I wore, whether it was Blackburn, United, England, I can sit here now and say I gave absolutely everything I could. So what did you not know that you wish you had done about mental strength? I think the middle point of my career, after Sir Alex left, United went through a really tough patch that transition period that everyone talks about we're going through a transition period now the older lads are you know your likes of your Giggsies and your Scolesies and your Waynes and your Rios and Vidas and Patrice Evras there sort of coming towards the end of the career at United and it was a transition period for us and it was up to us then to step up and be those guys and I think it was when social media started to form and you start hearing things.

6:13And as a kid, I think you come into the team, whether it was at Blackburn or United, and you just didn't care. You just went and played. You just went and played football like it was in the park. For the first two years at United especially, it was just like, you know, I didn't... Any of the noise, external noise, you didn't even notice. You wasn't aware of it, even if it was made aware. You wasn't bothered. It didn't affect you. And I think gradually that started to affect me a little bit more mentally. and I think anybody who tells you that it doesn't is lying because it does. I think any footballer at any stage or level of the career or whatever level they're at will tell you the same thing and as footballers you have to put this mask on, right?

6:54You're footballers, you get paid a lot of money so you're not allowed to have feelings or emotions or whatnot so it's difficult, it was a difficult time but I slowly started to work on that and my performances began to improve and get better and I was aware of that and I started to find myself again and understand who I was and the values I had to the team and what my importance was within the dressing room. It's been a rollercoaster, it really has, but I look back now and honestly, I wouldn't change it for the world because that was my career, that was my journey and I'm proud of it. Hey, I'm sorry to interrupt, but you know the very best place to enjoy high performance is on our app.

7:35You can see loads of exclusive content there, you can build your own playlists, You can get daily boosts. And right now, you can hear our conversation with Richard Osman on the app before it's available anywhere else. Download it from the App Store.

7:52You open the fridge. There's nothing there. So what's it going to be? Greasy pizza? Sad drive-thru burgers? Dish by Blue Apron is for nights like that. These are the pre-made meals of your dreams. At least 20 grams of protein, no artificial flavors or colors, no chopping, no cleanup, no guilt. Keep the flavor. Ditch the subscription. Get 20 % off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com slash terms for more. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tight and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

8:35No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert, right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

8:55This episode is brought to you by Opera Air, the first browser with mindfulness at its core. Now, most of us spend hours every day online, but how often do we pause to take care of ourselves whilst we're doing it? And that's where Opera Air comes in. It's a lightweight, fast, secure browser built not just for productivity, but for your well-being. With Opera Air, mindfulness is built right in. You'll find free breathing exercises, guided meditations, and soundscapes with ambient sounds, lo-fi music, and binaural beats, all designed to help you focus, relax, and even spark creativity while you browse.

9:31There's an incident Phil that I remember that it was a really innocuous performance but I remember thinking what you're saying there fits into it. You were playing Spurs at home against United and it was when Van Gaal was in charge. I remember one incident where you went to pass it back to the keeper and you hit it really hard and it nearly resulted in an own goal. To me it was somebody that was lacking confidence, the very evidence of a simple task. you'd almost over elaborated on it and I remember thinking then at the time that there was something going on for you that you're describing as some of these challenges what did you learn that allowed you to be able to rediscover your own talent?

10:16I think for me it was controlling the things that I can control anything that I can't control is out of my control I can't change the pathology of people's reasonings or people's opinions or it was just me adapting to the environment I was in and being able to be more aware of that this is it, this is the situation I find myself in, deal with it. If people want to criticise you, deal with it. If people want to say nice things about you, no problem. But when I was really good in games and I come off the pitch, I was so level, I didn't want to take myself to that level because I knew that the next day you could be lower than a snake's belly.

10:55In football or in any sport, it can change like that when you're in the flick of a switch. And you've got to be able to adapt to that and deal with that. And as footballers, you get paid a lot of money, of course, for something that we love to do. And you're expected to deal with that. And I did. Everyone finds different coping mechanisms. Everyone has different rituals before the games, headphones, or people sat in the dressing room just not even making eye contact. Everyone has their own way of dealing with pressures and dealing with external pressures. What was yours? I liked to stay really silent.

11:29And that was probably my downfall. I didn't open up to anyone. I'm not saying I was struggling towards ridiculous amounts. I had problems just like anybody else has problems. And I always say that my problems are no bigger than somebody who works in an office or just on a different level or a different platform. But my coping mechanism was to be silent, Put my guard up, my shield up around with my really close family, even my friends I wouldn't really communicate with that well. And people would know there'd be something wrong because I just wouldn't get back to them or I wouldn't talk or it'd just be literally my wife and my kids.

12:08And that was it. That was just my way of dealing with it. Tried to stay off social media, but you're always getting your friends who are going to fill you in on what's happening or he said that or you can't allow him to say that. That's disrespectful. And what are we supposed to do? We're supposed to just, if we bite back, we get involved in a spot. Or if we say something negative, then you're on the back page of the paper. So, you know, I like to think throughout my career, I say I went under the radar in terms of the media. And I tried to stay really like, swerve my way around it. I didn't want to do anything that would promote myself even more.

12:47You know, as a footballer, your life is very open. Everybody knows everything about you, everything to do with you. So for me, behind closed doors, that was my sort of safe space. And that was a space that I didn't allow anybody to come in. It's really interesting, isn't it? That, you know, when we talk about a young footballer, we talk about have they got the ability to pass the ball and find space and have they got good lungs, have they got a good engine, right? And actually, when you get to the top of the football tree, suddenly all the skills you're telling us that you need to be a footballer at the top level and none of those things, It's like the ability to almost deal with the madness of being a Premier League player, right?

13:24Yeah. So people will listen to this and go, what's he talking about? It was hard. What's he talking about? It was hard. He was, as people do, he was earning good money. He was doing what he loves for a living. So would you just put this kind of conversation to bed for us once and for all? When people talk about the mental challenges of being a footballer, what was going on in here with the self-doubt and the fear and whatever else you were feeling? Well, I think I go back to when I said I was young and you play without fear and, you know, having the courage to go and get the ball and, you know, you make a mistake.

13:57I think I heard Pep saying it the other day. He was saying the best players in the world have the ability to lose the ball a continuous amount of times, but they don't care. What they do is they go and find it again and they'll do it until something comes off. And when I was a young kid coming through at Blackburn and at United especially, I'd make mistakes, but it didn't matter. It didn't affect me in my head. It didn't affect anything to do with me. But as you grow older and you're more mature and you're more wiser to what's going on around you, yeah, listen, it's difficult, but I'm not here to get the violin out and everyone feels sorry for footballers.

14:32No, that's not what I'm trying to say. But it's understanding that just because these players are getting paid so much money and they're playing football, they're in the public eye, they have feelings, they have emotions. They have problems. just like we all have problems, so we can't discredit theirs. But it's unfortunate they're not allowed to give their voice and their opinion because they've got a team behind them saying, don't say this, don't say that, don't do this, don't do that. That must sort of be hard, not having the voice, almost feeling a bit helpless, like what do I do then? As a footballer, I always say you don't have a voice.

15:07When you hear interviews at the weekend or you hear stories in the paper and you think, do people read it and actually honestly think that they're telling the truth or telling their story, what they really feel? Because they're absolutely not. And there's so many times throughout your career where you have to bite your lip in certain situations and just ride it out, just go with the flow. Things will, you know, be tomorrow's chip paper, as they say. Can we take you back to signing for United, though? Because I always think it's significant that you're talking about this freedom of playing. and Ferguson allegedly spotted you in that 7-1 defeat when you were playing for Blackburn and went, I need this kid.

15:47So can you tell us about how the process of leaving Blackburn and joining Manchester United came about? So I think it was towards the back end of 2009, 2010, I think it was. I'd played really well for Blackburn. I was playing midfield at the time. Just a young kid, loving playing football for his boyhood club, enjoying every minute of it. no fear no pressure just putting on the shirt and going I remember just playing for Blackburn and then coming home and going playing five a side that was the sort of feeling I had I knew my time was coming to end at Blackburn and I knew there was a lot of clubs sniffing sniffing around I knew obviously I signed for Man United but there was Chelsea Arsenal I met with Arsene Wenger I met with David Moyes I met with City a few of the representatives from City who else?

16:36Harry Redknapp rang me Kenny Daglish I met with Kenny in his house in Liverpool I was fortunate I had a whole host of clubs I could have chosen anyone and then the only club that didn't ring me or speak to me was Man United I'm in Dubai with my wife well my girlfriend at the time now my wife we're in the morning this was before we had kids and an unknown number rings me you were on holiday at this point yeah on holiday I never answer unknown numbers I mean that's one thing I've changed now because you have to network now You answer every call now. And then it rings me again to my wife. Like, you're going to have to answer it.

17:12So I answered it, half asleep in bed. It must have been eight o 'clock in the morning. And this voice comes on and says, Phil, Sir Alex here. I'm not going to try and do that again. I've literally shot out of bed to my girlfriend and my wife's going, what's going on? And then he just said, he basically, along the lines of, we'd love to have you at the club. Like, I love, I've loved watching you. I know everything about you. And I'd love you to come out to Nice to come and see me and have a chat with me. So that was it. Put the phone down. What was he doing in Nice? He was on his holiday at the time.

17:41So they just got beat. It was the season they got beat to Barcelona in the Champions League, 3-1, where Messi's, you know, I think they were the absolute bastard United that game as well. So I went out to meet him in Nice with my agent, David Gill. Went on a little private plane, which again for me, being on a private plane, I'm an 18-year-old, going out to see Sir Alex on a private plane. and I remember being so nervous. I've never felt nerves like it. So my agent's gone upstairs with David Gill and I'm sat having a conversation with Sir Alex like this. I'm absolutely bricking it. And he didn't ask me for half an hour, 40 minutes, I promise you.

18:18He didn't ask me one question on football. It was, how's your family? How's your mum? How's your dad? What were your grades like at school? I was just like, is he going to ask me a football? How'd that make you feel? relaxed made me feel so relaxed and it really it wasn't intimidating as you thought it would be now I've met with other managers and it's been quite intimidating I'm only a young kid at the time obviously but it made me feel so relaxed even though I'm still on edge a little bit so he asked me all these questions about my grades and my scores and all these other things and then my agent came down then he started to talk about football a little bit and I watch you in this game and I love your passion for the 7-1 you made reference to and then at the end I remember the last thing he said to me and it still gives me shivers now like he said to me he looked into my eyes and he said Phil are you a winner son and I was like I was like yeah I said in my head I'm thinking where do I sign where do I sign and I was meeting Arsenal literally three hours later in London I was flying to London to go and meet Arsene Wenger and I remember I came out and I just said to my agent like I don't want to go like I'm done I've made my decision the aura of him like the presence of him And the way he carried himself and the way he explained and sold the club to me was just like no other.

19:37I always say it's like walking into a house. You know, as soon as you walk into a house, you get that feel straight. You don't have to see the rooms. You know straight away that that's the house for us. And it was just that feeling. And I just came back and that was it. I went to meet Arsene Wenger and I had to make the decision because I was flying out to under-21 championships the next day. and funny enough at the same time Jordan Henderson was actually signing for Liverpool so me and him were having a conversation and he was saying oh I signed for Liverpool and I was like oh no come over to United but obviously nothing ever happened in terms of signing for the same team and yeah the rest was history So those questions Ferguson was asking you about like your parents and your school grades and things like that what do you think he was trying to find out about you?

20:23My mentality how I was as a person how I carried myself because I don't think he was the reason why I was there because he never had any doubt about my attributes towards football but he wanted to know what I was like as a person and I think today I have ambitions of going down the coaching route and going into management myself and I think that's such a huge and critical part about football these days like time's moved on and I think you have to understand every single player and every single player has got their own goals and ambitions and been on their own journeys and it's about understanding every individual and for me, Sir Alex was the best at that.

21:05He knew exactly every individual person in that group. He knew where they were, he knew what they were getting up to, he knew everything about the family and that is so important and I think that's sort of been lost in translation in the last few years and not just at United but I think just in football as a whole. and it's one thing getting to understand a player it's another entirely different thing and probably the most most difficult thing creating a winning culture so I'm so interested to know what happened after the summer you've gone to the championships you come back you're a Manchester United player when did you realise the standard that was expected at that place and how was it relayed to you that this is the Manchester United way at that time I think I arrived from the under 21 championships I flew with it was me, Chris Small and Tom Cleverley, Danny Welbeck we flew out to Chicago I think it was and I remember landing at 3 in the morning and the amount of fans outside the hotel was ridiculous absolutely ridiculous, just waiting all night just to get a glimpse of somebody and I was like wow is that every time you travelled get used to that sort of thing and then I remember having my first training session and I remember being again just so nervous but wanting to just itching to do so well and just impress these lads like I've grown up watching these players like all these players I mentioned before like idolized I've idolized them do you know what I mean like watching them grow up and playing the biggest games and biggest competitions and I remember I gave a few balls away in in the start we're doing like a little possession drill and I remember Sir Alex pulling me during the the the four minute drills we're doing he just said don't worry soon he said you'll get used to the pace of it soon he said just keep doing what you're doing and it was just the tempo was just like like no other like I'd never experienced that the level the intensity they trained at the tempo of the session and the demands that those senior lads expected and demanded of you was just so high so high and so what were the senior players like with you then in terms of in integrating you into that culture So there were some who I would say who was really engaging and took me under the wing and then there were some who would do the same but test you in other ways, but they wanted to test you on the pitch.

23:24They wanted to know if you was good enough. Give us then a few specifics about how the standard was set because I remember talking to Owen Hargreaves, who I worked with for a long time, and I said, your first memory of being a United player, and he said, I remember a game where the whistle blew at half-time and I started walking towards the dressing room and one of the other lads went, don't walk. You don't walk to the dressing room. you run off the pitch at United. And he said that was the first tiny example of creating a winning culture. I'd love to hear some from you. I think the one that sticks out in my mind was playing Stoke away early on in the season.

23:57We were winning 1-0. And I think they equalised in the last minute. But in my mind, I've still got Blackburn mentality. I've not been there long enough. I got back into changing them afterwards. I remember sat next to Rio or someone else and I was like, it's all right, like thinking, point away at Stoke, tough ground to go to. And he was just like, it's not good enough here, mate. That's not good enough here. And it was just that sort of penny just dropped straight away that we win every game at this football club, every game. I know obviously times have changed and so on and so on, but that was just, it was such a winning culture and winning mentality in training.

24:40and then we used to do Old v Young on a Friday before a Saturday game and my God, they were more intense than the actual game on a Saturday. You did not lose. You did not lose that game. They were so intense. The tackles were, some of the tackles, if that happened now, you'd probably scrap the game. You'd probably say, lads, in you go. They were so intense and the more experienced lads always knew how to win the game. It was mad. We'd always get beat, but we'd always push them right to the wire. We had beaten them a couple of times, but they would always find a way of winning. Even when we were 3-1 up, they'd always find a way to win.

25:17But those were some of the moments that you think, yeah, incredible. And did you ever have a moment where you thought, I belong here? And if you did, when was it? I think when, I think I made my debut officially for, take out the pre-season games, when we played the Charity Shield. and was 2-0 down to Man City at half-time. And I came on at half-time and we ended up winning 3-2. But that's not the reason why. It was part of the reason. So we ended up winning 3-2 and I think it was at that moment when we won and the fans on the pitch and you're picking the shield up at the end, I was like, yeah, I'm here now.

25:59Like, I'm here. And then the first game we played, West Brom away. And Vida and Rio both got injured on 60-70 minutes. So I went on for the rest of the game in that game. I don't think Sir Alex had in his mind that I was going to play so many games so early. But because we had both centre-halves, both of our main centre-halves, Rio and Vida, who were out injured, then you're sort of thrusted into the starting XI. So I played against Tottenham the week after, and that was like my debut. And then obviously Gareth Bale, there was a big talk about Gareth Bale and how well he was performing. He broke onto the scene and he was flying.

26:33I remember I made a few block tackles against him and he beat me once and then I got back and made a block and the crowd erupted because it's the first time they'd seen me at Old Trafford and those fans, they just want to see you playing with passion. I know United, they've won a lot of things and they've got a lot of DNA and a lot of history. They just want to see passion. They just want to see someone who's going to give absolutely everything for that badge. If they see that, they will back you all the way. And I'm sure lots of United fans will be listening to this now in the context of United not now being at the level they were at then and the popular question is how do they find the days that they had under Sir Alex Ferguson?

27:16So I'd love to hear from you your abiding memories of the daily things that Sir Alex did that you think created the winning culture there. Buying good players is one part of it. But there's loads of clubs including Man United including Chelsea including many others with good players that aren't winning things. I think you just knew how to get the best out of everyone like how so before the game every game he would go round literally player by player whoever will start and he'd go around and be like for example phil he said phil you're playing against him today look what he's doing look what you're doing like that's why i signed you like forget about him like he's nothing compared to you like look what you've done this season look at the games you play like he would make you go out 10 feet tall and where like people said in the past like you'd already won the game it was like the manager had won the game for you because he'd given you that much confidence so much confidence going out into the pitch I remember like I just never felt like you was going to lose like you always knew you was going to win it was great it was a crazy feeling like it's hard to really to put into words how mad it was like he would give you so much confidence everyone you could see everyone was so engaged in the changing room before the game and he'd lift everybody with so much confidence even the lads who were maybe not played as well in the previous game.

28:34The spirit we had and the energy he brought to the, you know, as soon as he walks into the dressing room, like, everyone's ready. We're ready. Like, you don't have to shout. What's that moment like when he walks in? I always say, like, as a manager, like, you have to command that respect and you have to earn the respect as well. And obviously, he absolutely did that. But he just, when he walked into the canteen or the dressing room or... It wasn't a... It wasn't, like, a school thing where the TED teachers walked in and you sat there like that. You just knew he was in the room. So it wasn't a fear thing?

29:07No, it definitely wasn't a fear thing. Like, just an aura about him and a presence that, like, you knew he was in the room. Like, it's time to talk. It's time to go out and do business. And he just gave you that confidence and that energy and just... Yeah, like, I can't... It's hard to describe. It's hard to explain, like... But walking out on that tunnel at Old Trafford, under Sir Alex, there were very, very few times where I thought, we're in trouble here. We're in trouble. So your first two years there are almost like a lesson in contrast because your first year, we lose the league on the last day to City and you're up there at Sunderland watching their fans celebrate, was getting beat.

29:47And then the year after, we're in the league. 2013. Yeah, with some style. What would you say your experiences was of those two years and what was the real difference between the two years? I mean, the first season was really hard to take. We were 10 points clear at Christmas, 12 points clear at Christmas, and we managed to lose it on the last day. We won't talk about the last day because that... No. I mean, as soon as I hear that comment, and I'm not even going to say it, as soon as I hear the commentator say that, like, I used to switch it off. Telly off. I could not listen to it. For what reason?

30:25Because it hurt. Just pain. Because it hurt that much. like it was that was my first season like we should have won it and we didn't and it was ours to lose and we lost it obviously it should never have got to the last day anyway it should never have got to the last day but that was painful painful what was said in the dressing room when you come back to Sunderland you come in the dressing room you're dealing with the desolation that's a good question because you can judge a culture not by the great moments but by the hard moments can't you I remember coming back in and I remember everyone was flat so flat I'd never felt that experience before it was a weird one because you know you lose games at Blackburn or whatever and of course it means a lot to you I'm not disputing that but to lose in that magnitude for Man United with the DNA and the history behind the club was tough to take it's a real dent in sort of your ego as a club and I remember coming back in and I can't remember the exact words but it was we'll be back we'll be back and we'll make it happen.

31:29And that was it. You went on holiday, you come back and the next season was just so determined to put it right. And every game, all the talk was you can't let that happen, what happened last season. We can't allow that again. This football club, you cannot allow that to happen and repeat itself. And we just grew game by game. and to be fair I think there were times in that season 2013 season where we didn't actually play that well but got the result and there was other teams dropping points and you know again it was ours to lose but you know I remember that game at Old Trafford under the lights 5 o 'clock kick off against Aston Villa to win the league and when Waz has played the ball 40 yard ball to Robin Van Persen he's watched it over his head and volleyed it in the far corner like I can't tell you like it gives me goosebumps now that I can't tell you the feeling.

32:28It's impossible to put it into words how good of a feeling that was. And knowing you had 30 minutes left of the game with 2-0 up and you'd won the league. How old were you? 2013, I would have been 21, maybe. So you're playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world. You've won the Premier League at 21. Your manager has said he could be one of the greatest players to ever play for United. Fabio Capello's compared you to Beresi. Charlton's compared you to the great Duncan Edwards. You must have thought at that point, like, I don't think life gets better than this. Yeah, that was a real highlight of my career for sure.

33:09To win the Premier League for Manchester United was... I never even dreamt of that. Do you know what I mean? To make my debut for Blackburn was the best thing. But to go on and win the Premier League for Man United and to do it with the players I played with and the manager was incredible. But yeah, those comments were... Again, I go back to you're a kid, you're still young, you're still learning, you're still a bit naive and you don't really take those comments on board like you would do now. And yeah, it was great at the time and people are comparing to this player and that player and it's amazing, don't get me wrong, and it only fills you with so much more confidence.

33:47But I don't want to say it was a hindrance because it can't be a hindrance, but it certainly added a lot more pressure on me because people then are listening to those great people, like unbelievable, Sir Alex you just mentioned, Fabio Capello, and listen to those greats and they're listening to what they're saying. Whatever they say, people take note because they've been there, they've done it, they've seen players come through, they know exactly what it takes to be a player. So I think it gave everyone the perception of sort of the level that I was at and should get to. So definitely put more pressure on me, for sure.

34:23And how did that show up, that extra pressure? I think, obviously, when Sir Alex left, that was a big turning point at United, turning point for a lot of players, especially for me. Anybody coming in, it was always going to be such a mammoth of a task. You had players who were raging in that team and the young players coming through and how do you manage it? Do you change anything or do you try and stamp your own philosophy and cultures you want to create? It was so hard to get the right balance. I think I have so much respect for David Moyes for taking the job. What did he get wrong though? Listen, David Moyes is an unbelievable man.

35:07I've got so much respect for him and I went to meet him as well before I signed for United. and what an unbelievable his job had done at West Ham and then he's gone back there and wins the Europa League, Conference League, unbelievable. But it was an incredible task for him to get right and you almost felt sorry for him, you really did. It just didn't work out. When did you know it wasn't going to work out? I think when the lads maybe questioned the signings we made, I think that was sort of the lads basically saying that's not where we're at. It was Fellaini that came in, wasn't it? Felley come in and do you know what?

35:50Felley was brilliant. Felley was brilliant and he played every game under Mourinho and you don't play Mourinho's team unless you're a good player. You just don't. So Felley was a top player, used his abilities well and do you know what? At the time, it's probably what we needed. We needed something different. But obviously, players would question signings and you can start seeing fractious relationships around the dressing room. I've seen it before. It's just a downward spiral from there. It just doesn't happen. Defeat after defeat and losing games to teams we should never be... You've got to remember, we've been so used to winning things and so used to the history of the club I've mentioned and it's a pattern that was forming that shouldn't be forming.

36:43So as an aspiring coach, what would you do when that spiral starts? How would you fix it now? Back to basics. Back to basics. And start understanding and start looking at yourself and understanding why are things going wrong. Don't be blaming the players. Don't be questioning things in the media, like everything stays out of the media, like everything's internal. And question yourself, what can I do to get the best out of these players? not go in the media and start saying, this player, we need this signing, we need that signing. No, how do I as a coach improve this squad? And I stay silent. I'll back the players and I'll never say a bad word about them in the media.

37:24What happens internally stays internally. And we deal with it and we come together as a group. You've mentioned fractious relationships a couple of times and I'm not going to ask you to name names because that isn't right. But what we are interested in on this show is how people can learn from your experiences, right? And many people in their own business lives and even at home at times will have this issue with fractious relationships. Why were they so poisonous to a football culture when some people don't get on? I think it's egos, you know. And again, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way.

37:57Everyone's got their own ego. Everyone's got their own personality of who they've been and the player they've been and the levels that they've got to. So it's more of looking at other people in the dressing room and you're thinking, well, I should be playing. This is what I'm about. Move. It's trying to understand where those relationships are forming in the dressing room and catching them early. Because if you don't catch them early, you're done. You're done. It only needs one person in that dressing room to make things bad. to make the situation a whole lot worse for you than it should be. And that causes relationships to break down.

38:43It causes people sitting, collecting, they might be sitting at the table at the dinner time separately and people might think, what does that have to do with? It has everything to do with it, everything to do with it. And it's about catching those moments early and understanding them and recognising them and how do you deal with it? Can you feel it spreading? Yeah. When you're in a situation as a footballer where things aren't going great, there's fractious relationships with the dressing room, the management, it's a really, really tough place to be. Really tough place to be. And of course, this is all against the backdrop of injuries starting to rear their ugly head for you.

39:28So let's talk about your experience at this point. When did you first have issues with injuries in your career? At Blackburn. It was under 18s at Blackburn. My knee kept clicking and then just kept locking, but then would unlock if I wiggled my knee around a little bit. And I remember the lads used to laugh at me. And it was a bit embarrassing, to be honest. The lads are laughing at you because you're down in a heap and you're thinking, what the hell's that? And then it'd go. And then it was a bit of a bitter moment talking about it. I remember Sam Allardyce got sacked. which was incredible. Should never have got sight.

40:04We're sitting eighth in the league, doing really well for Blackburn, the budget that we had in the Premier League. And then Steve Keane took over, left me out of the squad, easiest one to leave out, youngest player. There you go. You sit on the bench against West Ham. Came on, and I remember trying to block a ball from Carlton Cole, and my knee just locked, just completely locked. I was thinking, oh my God, I can't straighten it. It's just locked like this, like a 90 degree lock. Anyway, got in, I tore my meniscus, went to get the surgery repaired repaired my meniscus there fast forward two years signed for United messing around at the end of training went to try and whip a ball in the top corner done the same thing again I then knew what it was I hopped into the doc's office and I said I'm gonna need gonna have to have surgery again it's done the same thing I went to get it repaired again but the surgeon said that it couldn't be repaired and it had to be taken out so you obviously have your meniscus that sits between the top of your leg and your bottom of your leg and that's sort of your shock absorber and your cushion.

41:03So then I had sort of no lateral meniscus and they always say doing your lateral meniscus is far worse than doing your medial because everything sort of falls on that side and compresses down on that side. I got back and felt great and this was under David Moyes era, Van Gaal era, Jose Mourinho era was started to really affect me every time in training. Under Van Gaal, I would say, in 2015, I would say it really started to, I started to notice it a lot more. I would train, my knee would swell. I'd be on compression boots, I'd be on the ice, I'd be in the pool, recovery, trying to get every inflammation down.

41:45And the pattern would keep forming and forming. I would start getting really really sharp pains every time you passed the ball because it was just the lateral compartment closing down So every time you passed the ball it hurt? Incredible amount of pain Do you know what, when I look back now I think like wow, I give myself a pat on the back for getting through those periods and what I did best was hiding that and players and staff knew that I had a bad knee, but I hit it really well. I would never put the team in jeopardy. I would never do that. If I wasn't fit enough, I wouldn't. It got to the point where I was having washouts.

42:25I got to the point now where I used hardly any meniscus at all, so it's just bone on bone. So every time you went to pass the ball, it would just be bone on bone. Every time you jumped and try and land, I would always try and land on my left foot and always try and take off on my left foot. But if the ball got spun in behind me on my left shoulder, I would be fine. But if it was my right shoulder, I'd have to be prepared for it. So in the end, I actually preferred playing on the left-hand side because the ball whipped down the side is easy to get to. You say be prepared for it. What, be prepared for the pain?

42:55Both. Be prepared for the running behind because you've got to be smart enough now because you might feel a little bit of discomfort. It used to be really bad pain. it got to the point where I was having that many anti-inflammes and that many strong anti-inflammes. I remember I played a game once and then I lived not far from the dock at the time. I remember I got home, wives in bed, and I just sat there and I'm just in the most severe pain. I couldn't stretch my stomach. I couldn't sit up. But the amount of anti-inflammes I used to take before training and games just to get myself through training, I used to dread training and little boxes at the start because any little sharp movement with the ball the amount of pain was just every day was just a battle just to get through training get to the games at the weekend and then it got to the point where literally the doc would inject my knee before the game so that you just couldn't feel it and then you just can't feel anything for a couple of hours and then just deal with the consequences at the end of the game and what were they?

43:57well you can't feel your knee so if you ruptured your crew shirt or you did something like that then you'd find out probably four or five hours after the game. Listen, people will say why are you doing that? Because I loved the game. I loved being on the pit. I loved being with the lads. I loved playing for Man United. I'd do anything and I'd do anything now to go and do it all again because it was my life. If you're still overpaying for wireless it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider.

44:41With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and coverage on the nation's largest 5G network. Honestly, the quality is just as good, if not better than what I had before. And the best part, you don't need a new phone. You can keep your current one, bring your number, and all your contacts. I use Mint Mobile and you should too. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch at mintmobile.com slash HPP. That's mintmobile.com slash HPP. Upfront payment of$45 required, equivalent to$15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only.

45:15Speeds may slow up a 35 gig on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Ah, DSW, birthplace of the humble brag. Here, the shoes are so good, no one would ever know how little you paid if you didn't go telling everyone that is.

46:01And with never-ending options for every style, mood, and occasion, all at really great prices, we'll definitely give you something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands. Or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or DSW.com.

46:30But you hinted at the start, Phil, around some of the mental demons that injuries does. There's research that says that for athletes that have a fear of doing an injury, the likelihood of that injury recurring goes up by something like 12 times. when did the fear and the anxiety and those demons start to emerge in your head? Probably in 2015 like I said when it started to really get gradually worse and worse you're always out for a couple of weeks with your knee and you know I look back at my career and the injuries I had yeah I had a couple of other injuries I had an ankle so when people say like I was injured a lot like granted they were right but it was only my knee and it was something that I couldn't do anything about.

47:15Like, what was I supposed to do? I couldn't change the pathology of money. I couldn't do anything about it. I'd seen surgeons. I'd seen specialists. I'd had injections. I'd had cocktail of injections and steroids. And I just, I did all my work in the gym. Like, I was so professional. I would get in early. I would leave late. I would massage his therapy. I did absolutely everything. But it just got to the point where enough was enough. Like, I'd been through that much rehab and that much trauma mentally that I felt like I'd just had kids and two beautiful girls and I just couldn't sort of put them through that again.

47:53Like, it was unfair on them. Like, I had a life other than football and that's sometimes what people forget as well. Footballers do have a life other than football. Tell us about, you said, the trauma mentally. Yeah, I mean, I think, like, you'd be thinking of something in your head to say. If you're walking down the street and someone, I was walking towards someone or someone was with the group of lads and they're boisterous and you're thinking, oh, he's going to say something. I was always thinking, I was always a step ahead and think, go on, say something now and I'll say something back. And people who know me know that I am not that guy.

48:23I'm a loving guy. I don't hate. So for me to be in that state was hard and, you know, you'd go past people in the street and they'd say something and it'd really, really aggravate you and get to your book. Like what? What were they saying? You just hear people whispering, oh, there he is, fucking injury prone. He never plays for Man United. He's just picking his money up. Right. And you think that's hurtful because if they knew what I was doing behind the scenes to get right and to be available for selection, and then people say, well, you shouldn't take that money then. You should... So then I'd flip that on the head and say, well, I'll tell you what then.

49:04What I'll do is I'll take the money away from you and see if you go back into work. Do you know what I mean? Like everybody's got to earn money just because it's football. Everybody has their own way of living and their own life. But it was tough. I found it really hard to go to restaurants and my wife would say, oh, we're going to go out, leave the kids at home today. We're going to go out to this restaurant. I'd be like, nah, I don't want to go there. I know that area and people might go there. I like to go to places where I knew I could sit in a corner or, you know, for years I used to like, you know, just head down when you're walking through crowds and stuff.

49:40I didn't want people to spot me and, yeah, it's tough. It was tough. How does it feel now? I'm completely, you know, I've worked so hard to get right here as well as physically and I'm in a really good position, really good state. Would you expand on that though? Because I think there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast feel that having their own tough times, maybe not on as grand a scale as what you've just described, but getting yourself better here is something that lots of people want to understand. How do I do it? It's tough because, you know, people don't want to, as we're sort of strong human beings and we puff our chest out and, you know, we go about our daily life and everything's hunky-dory and play football and everything's nice and cosy, when in reality everybody's got their own problems behind closed doors everybody and that's where I just had to accept who I was and where I was at in my life and accept that I needed to change not just for not just for football purposes because I wanted to get back and show people like I'm still the player I was when Sir Alex Ferguson signed me I know I've got it I know I've got it in here but it's about finding that again and how to find that again and how to find that within me and I think when I had both of my girls, that changed my mentality.

51:03I was doing it for them then and they hadn't seen, you know, for two or three years, well, two years especially, they didn't know what Daddy did. They thought Daddy just went to work and came back and had a normal nine-to-five job. So let's go through these moments then. So you've got your injuries, you're having injections, you're trying your best to play. I saw an interview you did once where you said I felt so full of shame that I couldn't even talk to my teammates what did you mean by that? well you're not helping them you're going into training every day, how's your knee? how's it today? it's alright, what do you think?

51:42what do you think it's like? I've been in for the last six months and again, I don't hate on them they're only trying to help and want to know but I was like, I can't help you I can't do anything for you like I felt embarrassed like I felt embarrassed walking into the club knowing I was just going in for treatment every day it's embarrassing like I never wanted to be that guy on the bike waiting for the I'd come in I'd literally wait and I'd instruct the physios that I'm coming in when the lads go out to training so I didn't really have to engage and see them because I didn't want them to say how's your knee how are you getting on I sort of knew then that it was just I was running out of time I was running out of time and that hurt to come in and I remember you know we just moved house and this nice beautiful house we'd walked in and you know my wife when we won the Premier League she got me like a replica trophy and I'd got all my England caps which I was so proud of but I walked into the house and they had this like little trophy cabinet and I didn't want them up I didn't want them up in the house like I felt almost worthless that like I didn't deserve to have them up in the house and it was only three four months later when I came back and they were up and my wife had put them up but you're like you look back and when I was in a better place and I was like you know what I'm proud of that proud of what I've done.

53:02Why were you being so hard on yourself though? Because I'm critical of myself. This is a physical issue that you had though? Because it's just pressure the external pressures and and and the pressure that I put on myself like I am my I am my biggest critic when I play football I don't need Joe Bloggs to tell me whether I played well I don't need Joe Bloggs to tell me whether I should have cleared a ball, headed a ball, tackled the ball, played this pass or I know the game inside and out and I played it for long enough to know and evaluate my own performance and I'm not I don't blow smoke up my own backside when I played well and I don't you know I know and I just I was my own critic and I just I just felt like I didn't at the time I'd been out for so long and it was so drawn out and I put my family through, you know, they have to go on the journey with you through the hospital beds and the rehab and it was just a tough time.

53:53I didn't feel like I warranted being able to put them up at the time and I purposely said you don't put them up. So how did you learn to treat yourself with a bit more kindness and compassion? Time, healing, understanding where I was at as a person, forget as a player I had to understand who I was as a person and the dad I wanted to be and what I wanted to I want my kids to grow up and look at daddy and think like how he was as a guy a man, who he was how he was with other people Sure, but the reason I ask that question is because from a personal point of view my inner voice sounds similar in terms of being quite self-critical and the question that really helped me with that was somebody said how would you feel if somebody spoke to your son in the way that you speak to yourself and it devastated me that anyone would say anything as nasty or as cruel as what I was doing to myself and I'm interested that you talk about the role of your daughters coming along can you give us an example of how that inner voice then changed its tone because I'm acting on behalf of them now like I've got something to like not that I didn't have anything to fight for of course I did but I had something so valuable to fight for and so precious that I was going to do that for them and do that for my family and do it for myself, more importantly.

55:19And I knew I had to find myself. I knew I had to change. I knew I had to become a bigger person. Just deal with it. Stop compressing and suppressing all these moments and all these because all you're doing is just kicking the can down the road. You're not helping yourself. You're not helping your family, your teammates. like deal with it and learn to deal with it and i did learn to deal with it and i'm i'm so much a better player manager coach whatever person for that and you mentioned like your friendship with jordan henderson in the under 21s were when we were lucky enough to sit down with jordan he a lot of it is echoing what you said that he thought being the strong silent type of boss in it or don't pass it on to your family was the way he was and then he realized that actually it was quite selfish to do that because they were still suffering but couldn't reach out to him he spoke about his work with the psychiatrist at liverpool that helped him start to unbottle some of these emotions did you go down that route yeah i worked i worked tirelessly with with with somebody um i had a lot of sessions online we had a lot of sessions together with a therapist or a psychologist Both.

56:32And really, it was about, for me, I think it was the fear of the unknown that really got to me. The fear of not knowing what's going to happen next week. The fear of not knowing whether I'm going to come back and play football. The fear of not knowing whether I'm going to be able to get another job here, there or wherever. or the fear of disappointing my family and my friends was what got me the most. Because they look up to you and they respond to you and you provided for them and that was the fear of not being able to do that for them. And the fear of unknown. I think the fear of unknown gets everybody.

57:14What did your therapist say to you about your... We spoke about the past problems and issues that I faced and why I felt like that and where I went wrong and how to have more self-respect for myself. It was step by step, like I'd go into the club and then, you know, I'd go in with a smile on my face and shake someone's hand and that was the first step. because it was just about dealing with it. You're still Phil Jones, the footballer. You still play for Man United. You're still being paid. Go in and do your job. And that's what I did. And slowly but surely, I built myself up. And it might be a little handshake there or it might be me taking myself out of my comfort zone and going asking someone a question or querying someone where I wouldn't have in the past.

58:08Because I'm also thinking in the back of my mind that, God they're just thinking that I'm just I'm just like I'm not good enough just injured like see you later but that's me consciously thinking what they're thinking and I do that I used to do that a lot thinking about what other players or other people are thinking where they're not even thinking that but it's me my mind taking over thinking that they're saying that hence what I said the other day before when I was on about walking down the street when you're thinking if he says something now like I've got something pre-made in my head so you dare say something I'll say something but where I got out of that stage and I remember someone said to me at the train station once I was on the way to London this was when I was in such a much better place and he said oh it's a shame about your career Phil but like it's lovely to meet I said you are and rather the old me would have been like oh thanks, thank you where I was like what did you say?

59:06He said, oh, the shame about your career. I said, what do you mean, mate? I said, I've been at United for 10 years. I said, I've won the Premier League. I've played over 200 games for United. I've been and played in two World Cups. I've won the Europa League, FA Cup. And you're trying to turn around to me and say, shame about your career. Like, no, mate, it doesn't work like that. And that was me standing up for myself and having respect for myself that, no, this stops now. Like, I'll tell you how my career went, and now I can look back on it with so many fond memories and so many fond relationships I made and managers and players and stuff.

59:48And yes, of course, of course I would have liked to have played more. Of course I would. And of course I would have liked to help my teammates more. But, you know, I've lived the dream. I've lived the dream playing for my boyhood club, Blackburn. I've played for Manchester United, the biggest club in the world, in front of the best fans in the world, like, how have I not been successful? I know a lot of people, 99 % of people would snap the right hand off it now for their young kids coming through to have the career that I've had. And I've got to be respectful of that myself and pass that message on that it's okay to be fearful.

1:00:25It's okay to be fearful of the unknown and what's going to happen and what might happen for people coming through. They might not be good enough for this team, but so what? go and play somewhere else and it's having that ability to go you know what fine deal with it I've dealt with it I've put it in the bin and now I'm moving on to this one and you're just relentless you don't stop and that's one thing about myself now is I'm just relentless I don't I don't give up I don't just throw the towel and if something doesn't work for me I don't just think oh well I'll just leave that one then I'll go on something else no I'll find another way of getting to that it might be a different diversion it might be a different route but I'll get there.

1:01:04But isn't it a brilliant lesson for people listening to this that you can be in the lowest of the low moments in your life and it's only a few years later on reflection that you realise that you will be so much better equipped for your own future because of these tough times that you've been through. Absolutely, absolutely. That's why I love being out on the pitch now. I love being with the kids and helping them through different problems they might face in the career. These lads come through the under-18s and the 21s and all these young players now they're going to go through so much adversity throughout their career, so many peaks and troughs of a footballer.

1:01:37And you've got to be able to deal with that and be adaptable. And I'd like to think that I've got enough knowledge to pass that on and help them, not just on the pitch, because I've got a vast amount of knowledge on that as well, but off the pitch as well. And I think marrying them two up and getting the right balance between the two is so important. So if there was an 18-year-old boy that was listening to you but could only take on board one message, what would your message about dealing with adversity be that you'd pass on? I think to listen to yourself and listen to the people who really trust you and you can really believe in around you.

1:02:11Listen to those people. They're important people. And they might not be a coach. It might be your mum or your dad or your mate. Those people who you trust and trusting people in this industry is hard, it's tough because there's always somebody who wants to be better than you. There's always somebody who wants to be stabbing you in the back because that's just the industry we're in. but listen to those people around you. Seek support when you need it. Don't suppress things in your mind. And just to be yourself and just to be present in every moment. They've got such a great chance of being somebody and they're in a position where they can go on and make a good living and have a great career, but don't throw it away.

1:02:54Don't throw it away by, you know, turning up late to a meeting or coming out with your boots untied. No, like, get the principles right. Get the basics right. And I stand by that. Can I ask you about how the world of football dealt with what you were going through? Because, you know, this is a world of high stakes. It's a world of high performance. It's a world where they know they're judged because of three points on the board. I'm interested in, I guess, in the times that you don't necessarily feel let down by the game, but you feel like you were put in really quite difficult positions by the relentless world of football.

1:03:33It's never ending, never stops. There's always something that, you know, you think you've got out of the woods a little bit and then bang, there's another story about you in the paper or somebody's written an article about you who doesn't even know you from Adam or... I mean, it was that, actually, I'll go back to that point, actually. That was the point where I came off social media when we drew to Stoke away again. And I was picking Crouchy up from the corners. I mean, he's a big guy. So we had about seven corners, eight corners in the last ten minutes. And I dealt with everyone, bar the last one.

1:04:01Bang, goal, Crouchy over the top of my head. Got caught in the wind at Stoke away. And I got onto the bus after the game. And I remember thinking, right, what post am I going to do on social media now? And I was like, I sat there and thought, you're having a laugh. Like, you've just drawn to Stoke away and you're worried about what picture you're posting on social media. I was like, stopped now. And I came off social media, that was it. I was done with it. Like, put it to bed because it wasn't doing me good. Because people assume you came off because of the kind of mocking or the abuse, but it wasn't.

1:04:32No, it was that moment where I thought, I can't keep doing that. I can't do that. Like, I'm playing, I'm representing Man United and I'm getting on the bus after the game thinking about what picture I'm posting. Can't be right. Did you think about Ferguson's Are you a winner son moment? Exactly that. Exactly that. Like that's not a winning mentality. That's a small-minded, weak mentality who's worried about social media and his public perception rather than worrying about winning the game. And that's, for me, was just a line in the sand. That was the penny dropping for me on social media. Let's talk about social media because according to the Pew Research Centre, Social media abuse causes negative emotions, physical signs of stress, sleep problems, difficulty concentrating, PTSD-like symptoms, suicidal thoughts and long-lasting mental health effects like anxiety and depression, a loss of productivity and self-confidence, thoughts of quitting one's job and lower job satisfaction.

1:05:32All of that from abuse on social media. How do you feel when you hear that list? It's correct. It's correct. I'm not going to sit here and lie because we're in 2024 and we're still talking about racism and we're still talking about problems like this on social media. And it's like, you know, we do things to try and eradicate it. And we're still to this day talking about it. And it's sad, but I had to deal with it and I did deal with it. And I'm such a better person for it. and that's where I say that I'm so glad I have gone through that because I can now offer that experience and advice to these young kids coming through.

1:06:15What was that? Because I've had it on, you know, nothing like the scale that you've had it but as a football presenter you just get criticised and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. To me it felt like every single person was doing it and if I walked down the street everyone would be going, that's the guy there. And that's not the truth but my God it feels. It's exactly like that. so all-consuming doesn't it I couldn't even sort of think straight on the days when people were yeah when I was trending or people were coming for me or whatever I don't know whether your experience rings with that exactly what I said about like walking down the street and and going to restaurants and um even like walking with your kids at times I've had like I've been walking with the kids at times and someone has said something and I'm a bit like I get it like if I'm walking down the street on my own like granted like fill me up like give me whatever you want because no problem but not when I got the kids there not like swearing or whatever in front of the kids last season there were 60 ,000 negative tweets aimed at Premier League footballers in one season 60 ,000 so we all love to say everything's getting better in the world do you think social media abuse aimed at footballers is getting better or worse?

1:07:25worse no way is it getting better no way I look on social media now like I'm back on it and I've got to the point where I want to be back on social media and I've made that choice and I look sometimes and I think, wow, like, I think sometimes that I've gone through a lot and I look at some of the comments and I'm thinking, goodness gracious me, like, honestly, like, what do people do? Like, just sit at home and just target footballers and want to send them abuse about the games and stuff like that. I don't know how you stop it. I really don't. I don't know how you... Do you talk about it among the lads?

1:07:59No. No. Is that right? No. You wouldn't want to highlight the fact that people are talking about you negatively. It's never going to happen because you do not want to highlight somebody making fun of you. But you're all getting it though. You can present a united front. But I go to a point, it's like this scenario is like you just signed a contract and I've signed a contract but I don't know what you're on and you don't know what I'm on but we're both thinking the same thing. You just don't speak about it. It's just an unwritten rule. You just don't speak about it. you're trying to guess and I'm trying to guess and I'm trying to gauge where you're at but it's just you don't you don't speak about it but then so although you wouldn't walk in a dressing room and talk about it because that's seems like that's the culture in football yeah there will be current players who will listen to this episode because they're they're on the receiving end of this and they're wondering how they can deal with it what would you say to them try and learn from my experience and try and learn from the things that I've said and and question yourself, like, am I all right?

1:09:08Like, am I doing all right? Is that affecting my football? You need to sort that out before you try and get it right on the pitch. I think understanding who you are as a person is huge. Like, what values do you bring to your family, to the team, to the manager? Like, what is your purpose within that squad? Like, what have you been bought for to come into the team and do? What is your purpose of home? What is your purpose in life? And really stripping it all back and understanding who you are and where you want to get to and the challenges you're going to face. And I think once you can accept who you are and what you've become and where you are as a person, then you can go on to try and achieve those things and navigate yourself through the tough times.

1:09:51Until you accept, it's all an acceptance thing, and until you accept that you are struggling, it's just a revolving door. So what's your purpose now then? To be a good dad. I've loved being there for my kids a lot more now that I've had more time. I've enjoyed that, watching them grow up. It's been great. Spending more time with your wife and your family because you don't get that as a footballer. You're away for Christmases, birthdays. You miss all the great... And again, people go back to the narrative and say you get paid a lot of money. But a lot of money can't get back the time that you missed X or you miss this Christmas with your kids or whatever.

1:10:31So for me now, it's about embracing their moments. I want a challenge. I love a challenge. I'm passionate. I'm driven. I don't take no for an answer now. I'm humble. I don't take myself too seriously. I never will. But I love the pressure now. I love being under pressure. It's taught me to work and live under pressure, and I'm constantly under pressure. and as a footballer you were constantly under pressure, people scrutinising, especially at Man United. It's magnified by, you know, you see it in the media now, as soon as something makes a mistake or United lose, it's bang, everybody's on to United because United have so much history and DNA.

1:11:10But for me now it's about where do I want to get to in my next step. Ultimately I want to go into management. I feel like I've played on too many good managers to not put that into use. I love being involved in the game. I love watching players develop and I want to test myself, I want to test myself. I'm ambitious and I'd like to think that fast forward myself in five, six years time that I'm in a job and being able to put that to use. Let's talk then about the lessons you learned from the people you played with and played under. First of all, from a management perspective, I'm particularly interested in the period where it wasn't great for you, right, because of injuries.

1:11:47Because I think you can judge people a lot in those situations. Which manager do you feel really understood you and dealt properly with the situation you were in? and which manager do you reflect on? I think you really didn't quite get what was going on there. Sir Alex Ferguson, obviously, I spoke about that before, of how he just knew everybody. He knew everybody's family, where they were, where they were eating that night, in so much detail that his man management skills, like I remember being out injured. He came to me in the canteen and he put his arm around him. He said, come on, I want a word with you.

1:12:19And he said to me, in three weeks' time, I said, I'm thinking, three weeks' time? Three weeks' time, you're going to start right back against Wigan. He knew his team. There's five games before that game. So he understood me as a player. I think the other one that sticks out in my mind was Mourinho, Jose. At times, I wasn't starting under him straight away. He needed to see what I was about and who was the player and this person that everybody in player, everybody's talked about. First thing he said to me was, like, you fit? I was like, yeah. And I tell you what, I think other than Sir Alex Ferguson area, I played my best football under Jose Mourinho.

1:13:01I really did. What did he do? He just got me and he understood how to manage me. And he partnered me up with Marcus Rocco. He was an absolute animal, by the way. Like, animal. You would not want to meet him in the back street. Might be give or take. I think we played 21 games together. I think we had like 16 clean sheets. I can't remember the amount of games, but we had so many clean sheets and we were just on such a roll. And Mourinho was that guy that if I had a problem, you'd try even harder to be fit for. And I just played well under him. And I know some people have had different experiences.

1:13:40And listen, everybody doesn't get along with everybody. Everybody's going to have relationships where you're not keen on that person. That's just life. I remember I played one game at home in the Premier League and then it was the cup game at the weekend. He was playing, I can't remember who he was playing, Reading, he was playing Reading and he texted me that night and said, well done today, go out for food tonight, take your wife out for dinner and have a few drinks. I don't need you at the weekend, see you Monday. So I was like, that's brilliant. Jose Marino's texted you and said that. He just knew that maybe two games in a week wasn't right for me.

1:14:18He knew that he needed me. I needed him and it was just sort of that relationship you understood and for that period of time like I always say it's one of the best time best footballing periods I played and then funny enough someone actually pulled out the squad and I'd had three or four pints which I never do because I'm not a drinker at all never have been and then he called me someone texted me that night saying they need you in the squad for the next morning and I'm like you've got to be joking and I've just had three pints, like three or four pints, which was way more than I would ever have.

1:14:53And then, lo and behold, after five minutes, Marcus Rocco came off and I'm on the pitch, played 85 minutes, played unbelievable. There's the lesson secret. But it's that, for me, that scenario is just letting go of everything and you just don't care. You've had three pints, so what? You've got a job to do, go and do it. Go and do what you do best. It takes you back to those Blackburn days. Which takes you back to the Blackman day where you just don't know any different. You play the game, you get back home, you think, you're right, I won a little five-a-side game with my mates. What about Ralph Ranić?

1:15:26Difficult. I was obviously been out injured for a while and I was at the point where I was back fit and training well, trying so hard to get back into the team and perhaps it was that time where I needed to be managed in my training load but wasn't for my own purpose really because I wanted to train and show him that I was good enough to play. so I probably trained too much with what was going on with my knee and then it was the game against Wolves where I came back played really well in and I came off the pitch and I think it was that game as well that I walked off the pitch and even though I'd played really well and I was back I knew I got into the dressing room after the game and I was emotional but obviously didn't let the lads see that in the dressing room you have to be big and brave of course and I remember I put the towel over my head and everyone's like high five and even though we lost 1-0 it was like Jonah brilliant so pleased, so happy for you but I couldn't accept it because I knew in my head that my time was coming to an end and that was hard to process in my head it was hard to take because I love football it's all I've ever known as a kid I just want to play football I want to give as much as I can and I knew that even during the game it was adrenaline that got me through the game more than anything.

1:16:45I was still feeling every pass, I was feeling it. And at that moment, I knew that the operation that I'd had had sort of come into sort of an end. And I just knew, I knew the end was near. And it was, as a footballer, as any footballer will tell you, whether they've gone through my career or different journeys or whatever, it's tough to let go. It's tough to let go. But sometimes, I feel like, again, watching from the stands, you watch decisions of managers that are baffling. on a man management level. And the one that springs to mind in relation to you is that game against Liverpool at Anfield where you get thrown in having not played for a while with the intensity of going to Anfield on a Monday night and then dragged off at half-time.

1:17:30Do you know what? I've never lost my head in a dressing room and I've never been emotional enough to lose myself in a dressing room. and I think that's the only time in my career that I lost it. I was absolutely raging that he humiliated me, humiliated me in front of an Anfield crowd, first and foremost, our fearsome rivals and the fans and my family and the players. Again, it was a game that was, listen, we're 2-0 down at half-time, weren't great. I don't think we had a shot on target in the first half. It was a period where I was going through where nothing was coming off. We was under so much scrutiny and pressure.

1:18:14And I'd actually done all right in the game, considering where I've been and what I've been going through with a knee and injury-wise. I tell you what, I'll look back at the game and I'll highlight anything with any analyst guy and say, well, I didn't give the ball away. I was calm under pressure. You know, I was aggressive when I needed to be. And I did. I'm not saying I was exceptional because I wasn't, but I definitely didn't deserve to come off at half-time. there was far worse players on the pitch than me that day and I didn't deserve to come off. But again, I'm the easiest one to pull off because you've not played in 12 months and you're an easy scapegoat.

1:18:46And the reason why we didn't perform well and we're 2-0 down at half-time was because maybe Phil was coming back from an injury and it was tough for him to deal with. And at half-time, I remember Ralph came in and said, right, I'm going to make a change. Phil's going to come off. And I remember the whole dressing room, I kid you not, the whole dressing room just went, as if to say, is he bringing Phil off here? And I'll never forget that moment in the dressing room. And I know what everyone was thinking. And I just, I took my boots off and I slammed them on the floor and I said, you're taking the, that's not me.

1:19:19And then everyone was saying like, calm down, calm down. And I get irate now because I'm so like, it really got to me. And I remember getting in the shower thinking, right, I'm just going to, I remember ringing my agent, ringing my wife and thinking, I'm in the shower at half time at Anfield. I've been dragged off for an unknown reason. I can understand, by the way. By the way, if I've not been good enough, I'll be the first person to hold my hand up and say, you know what, I deserve that. And I wouldn't say a word. I'd just get on with it and deal with it. But I remember being in the shower, ringing people, and I'm like, what is going on?

1:19:54Has this actually happened? Have I been brought off at half time here? And I just couldn't get my head around it. And I completely lost my head. You know, I apologised afterwards. and I said that it was out of character for me and I shouldn't have done that. At that moment, that's not what was needed in the dressing room. But you can understand from my frustration that I was pretty peeved off. When Eric Tenard came in, were you still at a point there in your career where you would have gone to him and gone, I'm going to get fit, I'm going to be happy? I'll paint the scenario. So I came back from holiday and I remember being on holiday.

1:20:29I remember saying to my wife, it's got to have a good gym. we need to go here no I'm not going there because it's got to have this um whatever cryotherapy I need this for my knee when I get there like the amount of times we change holiday destinations just so I could specifically have the needs that I needed a pitch or whatever ball and we was away at the time uh I came back first day really excited Eric Tanag coming fresh start you're out on the grass you've got your kit on the boots on again I was feeling my knee a little bit but I I thought, again, you just think, well, it's got to go away at some point.

1:21:04It's not just going to stay there forever. And then we're just doing little patterns of drill around like a circuit. So you play the ball, pass it into a net, jog around through the cones and just a little warm-up. And I kid you not, I couldn't pass the ball on my right foot. I couldn't pass the ball. Just a little soft pass. I couldn't pass the ball. And I just, honestly, I wanted the world just to swallow me up because I'm thinking, this manager's coming in. and I can't go in now. I can't go in from training 20 minutes into the session. And I got through the session, right? I'm not joking. I was passing the ball with the outside of my left foot and I actually got quite good with my left foot, believe it or not.

1:21:45I was a really good player with my left foot, especially in training. I used to try and play a lot left-footed in training, but I was actually technically really good with my left foot because I had to be better. And I remember I did this turn or sprint and I just felt it and I was like, oh my god like I can't I can't carry on I can't carry on and I remember I had drinks break I came over to the physio and my words were this is my last training session and he was like yeah yeah okay whatever and to this day it was my last training session done how did that feel saying that I was ready for it it was a relief a relief off my shoulders that I didn't have to put myself through this pain my knee I didn't have to put myself through that anymore and it was a relief off my shoulders a weight off my shoulders knowing that I'd committed to that answer and I'd been putting it off for a while like back home my family and your agent and you're thinking they're like they don't really know what's happening in your head but they're treading on eggshells because they don't really want to ask you the dreaded question is that you done or are you retired and I remember it took me I was doing a radio the other day and I think it's the first time someone said are you retired and I've said yes because I never actually officially came out I always feel like when you say you're retired, it's like, all right, that's it, finished, done, see you later, thanks for coming, where it's not like that for me.

1:23:04I've still got so much to give. When I got in the car, I remember being in tears on the car on the way back, I walked into the door and my wife was like, she just knew. And did it feel like a grieving process then from finishing as a player to now setting off on this new journey? So I think after I finished, well, I knew I finished, even though media and fans probably didn't understand. It took me a while to watch football because I'd be bitter about it. And again, anyone who knows me is like, I'll back my team. I'll back the players who are playing in my position. No problem. Every single day of the week because that's the team that managers chose.

1:23:43But I'd look at games. I'm not just talking about United. I'd look at games and around the world and I'd look and I think, I'm better than that. I'm better than that. People are raving about him. I know I was better than that but I couldn't show it I just couldn't show enough of it and I couldn't watch football for three or four months I didn't watch football like your mates would come round to the house and I'd be like don't switch to football I'm not interested We're about to go to our quickfire questions but I suppose the final question before we do these quickfires is how do you want football fans to remember you?

1:24:17That I was brave and I gave everything to the cause any badge that I wore I respected and war with pride. I love playing football. I was honest. You know, I was tough. And ultimately, I thought I was a good player. And I want fans to think that he was a good professional, a good player. He was unlucky at times, but had a good career. And hopefully he's got a lot to give on the other side of the game. Brilliant. Right, quick fire questions. From your amazing career and all the people you met and the things that you learned, what do you now believe are the three most important non-negotiable behaviours that really make a difference in life?

1:24:56Honest, humble and transparency. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and why? To control the things that you can control. Don't worry about the things that are out of your control because you can't influence them. You know, you could be 1-0 down after two minutes, so what, deal with it, get on with it. What's your biggest strength? What's your greatest weakness? I think my mentality now to deal with aspects of just my life and on the football side, I've got such a great mentality to deal with everything, to deal with whatever's thrown at me now. I know how to cope with it and deal with it.

1:25:37And I think that it just gives me so much drive, knowing I have those tools now to deal with all the things we spoke about, to take that into the next step in my career. If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why? The birth of my children. And then winning the Premier League was incredible. And then I think the other one to add another one to that category would be to make my appearance for England in the World Cup, to represent your country, to sing that national anthem at the World Cup. Yeah, never forget that. And the final message you'd like to leave people with, having listened to this amazing conversation.

1:26:21I suppose your one golden rule, if you like, for living a high-performance life. To trust the process. Everyone says it, but trust the process. Back yourself. Don't ever doubt yourself. You're always good enough for somebody and don't doubt yourself. Move forward. Always move forward. Thanks, Phil. Thanks. Thanks, mate.

1:26:43Damien. Jake. I think that we came across not Phil Jones the footballer but Phil Jones the man who actually, possibly for the first time in a long time, is really comfortable with who he is, what he's done, where he's going and in some ways, I felt like he had found freedom for the first time in a long time. Yeah, that's a great word to use around it, that freedom to speak his mind, freedom to be himself, freedom to be who he always was. You know, he kept going back to that freedom he felt as a young lad at Blackburn and how he almost became constrained and now he's gone back to that original state.

1:27:20You know that great phrase by the American politician Bill Bullard, opinion is the lowest form of knowledge because it requires no understanding of someone. Empathy is what really matters. And I really hope that people, particularly the people that thought it was great to send memes or social media criticism or, you know, people who publicly berated him when he was really struggling emotionally, mentally and physically, understand now that there was a man behind all of that and it does nothing for anyone to spend their time on social media just throwing criticism around. Yeah, and what's really interesting is that I go to Man City City, I never saw anybody that ever looked at him as anything other than a brave, honest lad.

1:28:02doing the best he could. Was he good enough? Well, sometimes by his own admission, he'd say, probably not. But he was always out there putting himself in the arena. And I think that's a man genuinely doing the best he can. And that's all we could ever ask for anybody. Look, I think it's impossible to judge him as a footballer because injuries dominated, basically, his entire career at Manchester United. But I feel after that conversation, we can judge him as a man. How do you feel he measures up to that famous question that Sir Alex Ferguson asked him when they first met? Yeah, I love that I mean, what a brilliant anecdote of are you a winner, son?

1:28:35And I'd definitely say he's somebody that's won the first part of his life and the lessons he's learned and the analysis and the work he's done on himself setting him up to be a winner in the second part I agree He proves on the football field he was a winner as a footballer and I think absolutely a winner as a man and arguably that's the far more important victory Yeah, definitely I love that though Cheers, mate And that's it Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget, if there's one thing that you can do after hearing that conversation with Phil, please just hit the follow button. It means we can grow our channel.

1:29:09It means we can invite even more incredible people to come and share their stories with you. Remember, remain humble, curious and empathetic. And we'll see you again soon.

1:29:31Thank you.

1:30:00Career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.