Pochettino & Perez: Truth About Spurs, How We Handled Kane, Neymar, Mbappé & Messi (E391)

0:28The club wasn't sure about Hurricane's future. You're listening to High Performance. Thanks to everyone who's already subscribed. If you've not, right now is the time because you'll get new episodes the moment they drop and your support helps us bring more world class guests onto the show. Tap subscribe right now and keep growing with High Performance.

0:51gentlemen welcome thank you so much welcome back to high performance and for the first time ever on this show we have a football manager with his assistant alongside him so let me come to you first of all Maurizio why is Jesus so important to your success as a manager why it's so important because I think we share the vision and the same philosophy and the values. In that business that you really need to be very optimized, the time and decisions and everything. I think to have a person with the knowledge of Jesus, with the capacity only to see each other and know exactly what we expect, what we want and to relate not only to the player but to the staff which is our main philosophy and ideas obviously because we have been together for so long and because he brings me or he takes me everywhere you know so I mean we go to the World Cup draw the other coaches they are not with their assistants but I'm there but it's been more than 10 years I brought my wife too yeah well my wife so why do you have Jesus there it's part of my my success my life my work my I don't know it's true that I love my son that works with me I love Sylvia that now is the last ad to to the group I love Mickey I love Tony but I think he's like the like explained before no that connect it's like the person that connects all this group of people when you arrive to the clubs that is very difficult if you need to go directly you know like a coach you spend too much energy and you cannot be focused on what you need to be focused and then because this connection friendship we are not only that work together if not we are friends and that is not always happen in life, to have the possibility to work with some people that after become your friend We want to talk in detail about what's going on in the USA because I think one of the challenges for you is trying to create that universal energy in a group of players that you're not with every day like you were when you were at your football clubs but before that I want to just reverse a few years to talk about some of the key moments in your career where you had to work as a pair and I wanted to talk about when you first arrived at Tottenham together and Harry Kane was on the very fringes of the Tottenham squad so before you arrived he'd scored three Premier League goals by the end of your first season together looking after him and coaching him he'd scored 21 goals do you both remember when was the first time that you saw Harry and thought there's something special here we arrived and it's not through data it's through your eyes and your gut feel.

4:03It's about a small, very small thing. A touch of the ball, how finish in one action, or one answer when you ask something, you know, or how behave when he's in the lunch or in the breakfast, or how he dress when he arrives, how he moves in the gym. There's plenty of details, a small thing that you pay attention. Like it was him, like it was Ryan Mason or different players that we met when we arrived. When we arrived to Tottenham, when we saw Harry Kane, we said, no, he's a player, he's young, he needs to stay with us. But I remember that Adebayor was Soldado and was him. but the club wasn't sure about Hurricane future and they wanted to sign a third striker and we said no we don't need a third striker we have Hurricane to give the space yeah but have no experience okay and we were so lucky because the club made an offer for it was well back in this moment in Manchester United was well back but Giroud got insured I think it was in Arsenal and Arsenal make another offer or bigger offer and Welbeck signed for Arsenal and was lucky because we didn't bring Welbeck and was the space for Harry Kane I don't know if I explained one day or not but that was the truth and when that happened the universe was a confirmation from the universe with us and was lucky Harry Kane, no?

5:53Because that happened because something special that we were special or we are special. That is, okay, Harry Kane is going to be in the first team, is not going to be in long, and is going to be, you know, and he's going to have the career that after, you know, and develop his skill with us. But when we explain to the club, we want him on the squad was difficult to convince because the most difficult thing in football is to anticipate the things. See that the hurricane today is one of the best strikers in the world. It's easy. No? But to anticipate or to project the hurricane in one year is going to be one of the best strikers in England.

6:43No, they say, you are guessing. No, you have no idea. But that thing is one of also our skills that we have. And we have that, you know, complicity with the universe that sometimes this confirmation makes that happen in this moment. And we gave what Harry deserved, the possibility to be one of the best strikers in the world. So beyond the anticipation, what do you both feel you offered Harry that has allowed him to go on and become one of the greatest strikers of all time? No, for me, the determination is one of the things. His mindset, he was determined to succeed. He was so focused, of course, to have the possibility to create a good platform for him to evolve.

7:36but I think what he achieved and how he did was amazing because it was you know it's because his mindset you know he was so determined to be successful and I think for me it's one of the best skills apart of the another but he was so strong in his mind and I think it was key as well in that moment the way Mauricio protected protecting Harry because I do remember a meeting that was tough with the club in terms of communication because it was public like Welbeck could come join the team so therefore maybe Harry himself would like to go but once Welbeck signed for Arsenal the club suggested that Mauricio should give a statement say I'm happy with the three strikers.

8:36And Marisa said, it's not necessary for me to say because if I'm saying that and giving the impression to Harry that I really wanted another one to come and not him. So from day one, I was very comfortable for Harry to stay with us and to take time to succeed. So that statement that never came out, it was super important to protect Harry and also to give the signal that I really trust you. It's not necessary for me to say that. You know? So there are those things on management that no one can see, but define the career of a player in this case. I agree. It's true. What difference would it have made if that statement had gone out?

9:21You think that would have put more pressure on Harry? Yeah, it looks like the statement was to protect ourselves. Like, we are happy with these guys, but while you are taking a statement, you know when you put in a statement it's because probably you were negotiating with another one now we can talk because this is the past I am happy I am happy with this three I am happy the club that was this signal if I need to make a statement it's because we're really worried that what the people think that he was so so tough with Harry at that time because Harry came a game in Belgrade I think yes And then on the way back, he wasn't included on the Premier League game the weekend after.

10:10And Harry, knocking his door, said, why I'm not in the squad now? I said, OK. Because you are not performing and your attitude is not right. And I said, OK, out. And then came with... It wasn't easy for him. No, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy because sometimes the young player becomes confused, no? But that is part of the, you know, to provide, you know, the young player the tools to perform and to become strong. But you both have reputations of developing young players to eventually blossom. Take us into how you decide the right moments to challenge and be demanding and the moments where you need to put your arm around them and care for them.

10:59that is the emotional part of the of this game that you need to have the skills to know when because it's really really key you cannot protect when the player deserves to be you know not protected or when you need to push when you don't need to push you need to give some confidence on some time you need to challenge or some time you need to challenge that is It's about your skills. It's our decision. It's in the way that we work daily, every day. Because every day we arrive to maybe six o 'clock. The last time in Chelsea, we arrive at six o 'clock in the morning. And we start to talk from number one to 25.

11:45And we, in two hours, maybe talking about the necessities, how we saw the day before, how we plan to see the player, in which level, mental, physical, technical, tactical, knowledge about the game, if we need to talk about the game and we need to talk about different things. And I think that is being consistent, talking every day, look after the player, every single player, with the necessity. And then it was so easy because one of the things that we made this first day is to spend time with every single player. first, second day, third day and spend some players five minutes with another player one hour when it depends on the connection with the player and the necessity of how they are open or not, but that is about the knowledge, not the external, you know how they are in the aesthetic way, but only how they feel, how they think, the mindset how sensitive you know, these type of things that are really important after in the way that you are going to communicate with because it's not the same to speak with Harry Kane that Dele Alli or Sean Bertoggen or Hume-Inson or Christian Eriksen you know, one came from Denmark, another from France different, you know background, everything and that is for me the skill that like a coaching staff is the principal thing, is the most important thing And then it's data, it's another, it's this, it's tactic, it's okay.

13:24But if you don't have this skill in your group of people that is going to manage person, people, and I think you can win games, you can win some trophy, but you are not going to be successful. Those strategies are natural now, but I learned so much from him, especially on the readiness for a young player, probably because he made the debut in a big team in Argentina when he was so young and he has this capacity to project part of his career on the young player. And always he says, the player starts to play when he's ready, when the group accepts the young player and it's a good KPI. There are no reports that say that, but when the group says, hey coach, the young guy, it's doing well, you know, it's a signal, you know, it's a key.

14:19keep your eye that says, okay, this guy is ready. And then there are a lot of things on that journey that you need to face. I mean, as an example, we can use Levi. Cowie wasn't sure to come back to Chelsea. And during the summer, we were talking to him. He was in the Euros, I think. In the Euros, yes. You know? In the Euros. And it was really hard to convince him to come back, you know, for whatever happened in the past. So, but then they had an amazing connection. and I do remember conversations where he says, listen, all the big center backs in the world, you know, when they were young with your technical ability, with your physicality, they all play in different roles.

15:02Center back, left back with more or less, you know, adjustments, you know, because and then when you play, you know, when you start to play regular as a center back, it will be super easy for you, you know. And he was fully convinced that it was the best for him. look what happened we played the first game against Liverpool home Levi has to face Mo Salah you know and for Mauricio Levi did an amazing game and for us we were so happy why? because he projects the performance of a guy in time so this okay now he starts to play I accept those mistakes or those errors are normal you know with several games you know these guys they learn so quick and we'll be fine so what happened he received external report not from the club you know external his company or personal because now today players they have external nutrition fitness coach mental coach they have everything you know and tactical coach which is super risky and the guy the day after training I saw Levi dead and he said what happened I'm dead why no I received the report yesterday you know and I was wrong I did everything wrong I said are you serious Yes.

16:17And he said, no way. We just, I came out from Maurice's office, you know, how good you were yesterday, how pleased we are with what you did, you know. So you were defending the best player in the Premier League. So that's the context, you know. He received like much of the day clips, you know, body shape here, you know, just nothing. But how different the assessment of a player could be with the same performance. So that ability to play with those strategies can make a player to step up or to kill a player, you know. And that's internal analysis or external analysis with no context.

17:01There was a lovely quote from Cole Palmer about his relationship with both of you where he said, they gave me the opportunity and the freedom to do what I do. which sounds really simple but how do you go about giving a player that freedom? In the first few training sessions one day after a few few training sessions I came to my office and who was there and Mickey, I don't know, and Tony I said, coach, Susan, guys because I was seeing what you expect from the players that play in my position I think I need to do a little bit more specific job because I didn't do too much in City. And I said, I need to, what do you think?

17:48I looked to Jesus and said, that is a crack. It's tough. It's tough. Because a guy that arrived after a few training sessions, he said, because of the demand that you expect for a player in that position, I said, I am not ready to do what you expect from a player in that position. In this moment, you say, well, come on. That is going to be tough with equality. And this intelligence about to, you know, to want to do everything, to perform, and then look. And then the freedom is, it's all we said, we love to be an organization cause. No? And players need to feel that it's a cause, but with organization.

18:38and that is the freedom that you can find because you respect the rules, you know what they need to do on the pitch, but at the same time you feel the freedom to express your talent. And a player like Cole Palmer, you cannot say, no, you move from here to there, that is your movement and it's mechanic, you know. No, no. Of course, it's mechanic in some aspect of the game that maybe we don't have the ball. You need to do this, do that. Okay, organization, when we lose the ball, transition, everything, aspect of it. But after, in positional game is this. You need to have your team, but after it's your quality and your capacity to understand the game, what is the demand of the game, or the situation, the intuition, and the capacity to see a space, you know, to arrive, or to do dribbles and shoot.

19:32That after we are not going to cut this potential, you know that is why football is so emotional because our player like him with the capacity to create that emotion that the people become crazy you remember that moment he came in the office and said that yeah we do remember plenty with with him because there are some very good and some ones that are funny as well so but he's super talented what would you share with us about a story about Cole Palmer that you think summed up your relationship or your understanding of him as a player? Because he has emotionally intelligent above the level of average footballers, you know, and makes him special.

20:24What he's capable to do with the ball, it's obvious, you know, but everything else that you don't see, how he assess situations how to behave but also because he's so young sometimes he made a mistake but when he made a mistake and it was challenged he had the capacity to accept it and to say yeah I was wrong, sorry won't happen again and that makes him great because he's above average You were smiling though when we asked you about him? What was the funny story? Yeah, I think it was one cup game, half-time, you know? So Mauricio was a bit tough on the group. You know, sometimes when you play a team that is not in the same division, it could be, you know, a different approach, I would say.

21:24So, and Mauricio gave a talk and then he left. And then when he left, he comes to me and says, A and B. And I said to him, why you didn't say 10 seconds before? He was here. You know? That's not, it's not something to, you know? And, you know, he knew that he made that mistake. So it's fine to say whatever to the assistants, but that question was, next time you go direct to him. Either in public or in private, you know? And those things makes the connection in between a manager and the players. Of course, the day after, we call. I say, Cole, what do you need to tell me? Ah, you are brave. Be brave here.

22:10Coach, okay. It was good. You know? It's so interesting this, isn't it? Because your job really is to get the players absolutely primed for a Saturday for a kickoff. You can't go too much because it kills their confidence. You can't go too little because they relax. It's about trying to get it absolutely perfect. What is the secret to priming them for that moment, do you think? The secret is to read the atmosphere and the emotional signal from the group. And did you ever get it wrong, go too much or go too little? Yes, sometimes you are wrong. You never, you are not perfect. We are not perfect.

22:49Sometimes we over-stress the group, and sometimes we too much relax or too much joy when we need to put more stress. It's very thin, the line, no? But I think after our experience, we feel that that is the most important thing is to be focused. Of course, we have a group of people that measure the data and everything. The players are tired, not tired, things like this. But I think the important thing is to measure the emotional state of the group. And always in the whole group, you have a few players that give the signal how the group is feeling. And that is the moment that you act after. It's not a data that can measure the level of emotional state of the group.

23:56That I think is a key part of our management, is to be right in how we apply our load in training, not to stress too much put too much stress but also not to be short in what we are giving to the players And who was the player at Chelsea that you would look at, Jesus and see whether you'd done the job right in the week who was the player that you could either speak to and find out how the group are feeling maybe away from Maurizio as the manager or just as the coach to go and speak to them We tried to connect with different with different players obviously the distance in between players and coaches are set by players so they are players that they want more distance more you know and then obviously could be experience could be commitment could be different and maybe you don't ask the same to everyone you get the feeling from them obviously if they play more or they play less you have to be you know careful with the feedback and it's not like you just rely on one because I think what we try to show to the players is like, no matter what's your age or your experience, we are going to treat you fairly.

25:15We are here for you. If you play less, we are going to be more intense on you because we want you to have more coaching time because you are not playing in order that you can short our distance with the ones they are playing. Those kind of things. and we used to say that our job is an art because you need to pick. But it's the same as yours. So you have a list of questions. The way you connect with us, making the questions makes you different. Otherwise, you can sit two people here and they read the questions. I'm sure we are not going to give the same answers. So there are no set protocol to get that feedback.

25:59See, that's interesting because it reminds me of another quote from Cole Palma where he said about you, actually, Maurizio, he said, the manager just speaks to me like a normal person. Not about football, but about life. He makes me feel relaxed. He makes me feel confident. And I sometimes think we miss that if you're trying to get someone to perform at an elite level, it's not all about your sprinting and your intensity and your mindset and your desire and your drive. It's like, how's your mum? How's your sister? How are you? These things are just as important, but why? But the players need to feel that it's genuine.

26:31genuine answer question that you are interested because you really care it's not because that is like I am a coach and that is my list of duties today speak with Palmer his mother is okay good ah takes the box that need to be very genuine question it's not to call Palmer to my office say, how is your mom? How is your dad? Okay, good. Thank you. No? Sometimes people become confused. It's the circumstance, it's the moment, it's the timing, it's because something happened, it's not always, it's sometimes we spend time together and not to talk. I don't know, it's like Jesus said, it's an art. That is the real tactic of manager, being coach, being manager, being head coach, or being coaches.

27:39Because after in the pitch, also, I think we are so good doing what we are doing in a tactical preparation and everything, because I think that is the most easy thing in that game, because the knowledge, I think we all today, the coaches, we have the same knowledge, about tactics, preparation of the game, set pieces, everything, everything. But the key is how you, after, provide the player the possibility to evolve with these tactics in an environment or in a place that you really enjoy and you want to be, and you want to belong. that is why sometimes the mistake is oh some coaching staff is not do too much tactics during the week or another coaching staff do more tactics than or more set pieces or less set pieces or like this I think in our in our in the way that we see the things is is the priority it's always to provide the group of the player what they need which is the priority no if the priority is because we already we are in a very good level of fitness mental you know cohesion of the group we are united we really care we don't need to work in this we need to be focused in tactics because it's going to work but if you want to go to the tactics before to fix all this type of problem if I am not connected with Jesus I cannot work with him The coach is going to go, no, but when Jesus moves on the left, you move on the right.

29:29I say, Jesus moves on the left, I go on the left too. I don't care, I stay here, I don't move. Or Jesus speaks with me and I don't answer because I have no good relationship. He says, come on. Or they don't talk in between each other. If you don't fix all this, that is tactic too. It's very difficult to create. We in Chelsea, we arrived in a group that was a new group. It was a new group. was in a very difficult situation because I think in Star From Bridge was after six months, they didn't win one game or one game. They finished 12. Okay, a very difficult situation that became all within the situation was created, you know, because problems, you know, it's easy to remember, but we were from zero.

30:19And we started to provide to the team to analyze which is the priority. We cannot start to build the house from the roof to the... No, we need to settle the principle first. And we were little by little. After six, seven months, six months, the team started to perform. If you watch, because we are watching games like this, and you watch the last few games, I remember one game that we play again, Brighton in Brighton. That was the last game or the second last game that Brighton was doing really well with the serving. And see, the way that we played there, if you analyze the tactical things that Brighton didn't know how to press us, how to play, we were playing unbelievable football.

31:10That is not only because our knowledge about tactics was the freedom in this chaos or in this, you know, environment that we create the possibility to the players press all the talent. And if you go back and see this game, this game like another, you know, again, Everton 6-0 or West Ham at home or Bournemouth at home, like this, how the team finished playing, that is the credit of all these things that we were talking today. not because we are genius in a tactical way it's because we create an environment that the player like Malo Gusto that was really young and came from not to play from Lyon finished playing in his best Badia Schiele Kukurela that didn't play from the beginning and the club wanted to sell become the best fullback on the Premier League Conor Gallagher Enzo Fernandes Cole Palmer, Noni Madueke, Jackson, plenty of players, or Caicedo, that they grow through all this value, this method, this idea to build things in this emotional way that is really, really, really key.

32:35One thing that fascinated us when we were talking earlier about what we would discuss with you is this amazing ability you've got to go in and work with someone like Harry Kane or Cole Palmer or Lévar Colwell, all of these great players. But then the day that you walk through the door at Paris Saint-Germain and suddenly you have Lionel Messi and Mbappe and Neymar. Because everyone talks about imposter syndrome, this fear that you have when you suddenly are faced with something. Does that happen to a coach when you walk in and you've got some of the world's best players sitting in front of you?

33:09Or do you have to go in there and be exactly the same as you are at Espanyol, at Tottenham, at Chelsea? How was that? Okay, Jesús, you start and I finish. I mean, you have to be yourself because if you pretend to be different, but obviously you need to understand their moment, their quality, everyone knows their quality. and obviously that was a very special and unique situation where three world class players that normally they are going to be just one and surrounded by special players in order to provide the best platform for them to perform they were all together and it's not just they were together they had to share the front page of the newspaper the assist, the goal the penalties, which is very rare our job was to try to understand the moment and to create an environment for those three to feel as comfortable as possible and try to make the team to perform in the best way, because it's not Neymar plus Messi plus Mbappé.

34:35You know, maybe the equation is different because they are sharing things that they never, they never, they weren't born to share. They are the main, the main one. So that was super difficult for him as a coach. And we try to provide normality, calmness. They are normal guys that you can speak to, you know, and just to accept that they've been through different experiences. they were in a different moment so one player was completely different to another and our job was to generate normality I would say. What I need to say is we were so lucky to be there, living that experience because I think no coaching staff can say we have the two best goalkeepers, Navas Donnarumma best central backs like you know Sergio Ramos Marquinhos Kimpembe okay full backs Hakimi Messi Mbappé Neymar but on the bench or in the same squad Di Maria Icardi Dressler Wijnaldum Berratti Paredes maybe 15, 16, 17 names already and still a few more.

36:06Herrera, Rafinha, Ganagay, Danilo. Okay. And you only can play 11. Can play 11. And the problem is when people start to not believe that say, come on, you need to win four nil before to score four goals before you start the game from the bus. I said, but it's not like this. It's not like this. Because I explained Jesus before. You receive Messi with no precision after the Copa America. Big stress, trauma after to leave Barcelona. You need time to adapt. Yeah. Neymar, some problems. Mbappé. But these three guys, that they need a team in behind to play for them. they need to share the space before explaining.

37:03Oh, who is the taker of penalty? It's not easy to say because Messi, Neymar, Mbappé, okay, it's so really, really complex situation when you go and go and go and go. And what we did is to try, like Jesus said, is be ourselves, try to do in the way that we feel, but knowing that we are going to suffer. It's going to be difficult. If we were in Tottenham, a team that was so, you know, high line, you know, press high, recover balls in the opposite half, yes, you cannot expect that Messi is going to press people. When in Barcelona, when he was in his peak with Guardiola, he never pressed. And that is the situation that sometimes people become confused and said that was the difficult challenge.

38:07And what were those three guys like, though, to build relationships with, you know, how did you go about doing that? Yes, the approach was completely different with the three. but I think when we go back and see the whole season that we spent together I think it was never one problem never discipline problem never you know disrespectful with us always they were on time they always were you know very respectful with our decision and that is it's only Messi that you remember when I take off when again Leon that he was a little bit disappointed but That was my decision because it was to protect him.

38:53There was a problem with his knee. And he said to me, oh, coach, but you need to ask me. I said, yeah, but I cannot ask because all my feedback through the doctors and the people say that you are in a big risk to be injured in your knee. Yeah, yeah, but Guardiola always asks me before to go out. I said, yeah, but I am no Guardiola. that in this moment, you know, I said, look, that is different because in this moment that I feel the risk, I don't want to put you in risk. That is sometimes, you know, is the disagreement. But always, I think he understood that always it's not to challenge him or to show that I am, you know, I have character.

39:35I have the personality to say, oh, messy out. No, messy out, no. I want to protect you. I care for you. I love you. I don't want that you being sure. and that the good and the bad because the people started to kill me because Messi was out in this game that we were playing against Lyon 1-1 in two weeks I remember we had a a game in Champions League against Manchester City and he was out for two weeks and he started to train Monday and he can play Wednesday and he scored a very nice goal that 2-1 for us that we beat Manchester City and he after come on the dressing room and hugged me. And only hugged me and he said nothing.

40:23And you're one of the few people in the world though when we met you five years ago and had this conversation we spoke about you were a roommate with Diego Maradona. Diego Maradona, yes. And you've obviously managed Lionel Messi. How do they compare? Yeah, both. Genius. To compare both is I not hate to compare but it's so unfair to say something or another because when I I watch clips from Maradona I say the best and then appear a clip from Messi I say the best he was the best and for me both both in different period of football but both genius talented amazing unbelievable unbelievable genius of football.

41:13It's difficult to find, you know, this type of player. It's only few in the history, no? Both nearly as good as you. I am better at coaching. There you go. Can I ask how your role changed at Paris Saint-Germain? Because you work with a coach who thrives on universal energy. So he's used to building and creating and looking at the room, and suddenly there's ego and there's politics and there's power and there's commercial demands and every tiny decision is written about in the newspapers and the pressure on Maurizio greater than any previous time in his career. So how did that change how you worked with him or looked after him?

41:54Well, obviously try to connect more with players because we knew that it wasn't that natural that with 20 plus starters, he could have, you know, close connection, as I said before, players. So not just myself, all the coaching staff, we tried to build those relations with players. And then what we did at Paris Saint-Germain is to simplify the process in terms of the training because there were so much talented players that Mauricio one day said to me, a talented player need to rest their mind during the week so we cannot demand complexity through drills we cannot make these guys overthink during the week because what everyone expects from them on the game is to create to create something different from the previous match and the previous season you know so to manage that mental load was important especially on the super talent players and provide the other ones that they have to sustain the physicality of the group.

43:03So it was more simple. Obviously, we play plenty of games, so there are not much tough sessions, but the ones that we could perform in certain areas, we simplified. So the type of drill, the dynamics, was focused on prevention, right analysis of fatigue, because these guys, they are under huge stress because of the traveling and the possibilities and especially because these guys, they spend a lot of time on commercial. So, I mean, Neymar says, I need to go to Germany for six hours, do something with Puma and come back. So that spending is not out there, you know. Drinking is spending energy and time and, you know.

43:53So those kind of things we were, but especially to bridge. So bridge with the players, to have conversations and then to filter, you know, whatever was important and especially to keep things that were not relevant from him. Not to disturb because he had so much to, you know, to protect. Was it hard? It was easy when we were in the training ground. Yeah. It was so easy because they are very good people. Very good guys. I think we really enjoy the time together, no? when the cameras were off, when no one sees. But that's when you appear outside and you need to go to the media or the media start to talk about the things.

44:39That is when it's difficult because you need to protect your image. You need to project that everything is under control. But you are talking about players that sometimes are bigger than the club that you are. and they have more followers than the club have supported. And every single decision that you take is affecting millions of people. That was easy inside, but outside was difficult because people is, if you don't win games, it's like, ah, the problem is a coach. No, as always. The problem is, and I'm going to explain one, I think Thierry Henry is a good friend and he's not going to be upset about that but I'm going to explain one thing Thierry Henry was a bandit with Amazon I think sorry maybe I'm doing okay in a broadcast in in France and we played again Marseille in Marseille and after 20 minutes we I think was Hakimi in a red car yeah red car and we played with Tenman and that moment we play with Di Maria, Messi, Neymar and Mbappe.

46:03Four on the front. And we keep playing with the same system. We, one midfielder like a central back and then one central back like a full back. We keep four, you know, four, one. In the second half, of course, you know, when Leo is tired, he trying to protect himself going the right side and stay there but we finished nil-nil the game okay it was with one less you know good game but he after in the in the media criticised said oh I don't understand Pochettino why put Messi so isolate you know in the right side because Messi needs to be close to Neymar to connect the game plan was Messi 10, Di Maria 7, Neymar 11, and then be together, go inside to the pocket, to the central channel to stay together with Mbappé, him from, all this.

47:03But after, because of the problem of the... And he said, I don't understand Pochettino. Why put Messi on the right side, no? And isolate him. He cannot be close to Neymar. That is the player that can link with him. And do you know what? was like a universal, you know, energy, the conspiration of the universe. The day after, I go to the train very early, was COVID, you know, remember in the period of COVID, from Paris to London. I go to the first carriage. I saw a guy with a casket. Hey, my friend. how are you? I wanted to see you he's going to remember I said what did you say yesterday? that it's my fault that Messi was there and he didn't connect with you know you play with him no?

48:08do you think that I said to him go there and don't move it's too thin if you believe that was my my indication to him is because I am so powerful if Messi do what I want in this moment that to be there and disconnect to the team is because I am the most powerful person in the world and you know very well no sorry but I needed to say something come on but you are creating a bad image about me because you are lying because that is not true. It's not my decision to say, Messi, you don't go. Go there and don't move. That was because the necessity of him to maybe to rest and to say, okay, now I am a little bit here, resting, recovering, recharging my battery to after to start again.

49:03And say, no, no, no, you're right. Sorry, sorry. He said, yeah, but all these type of things create a bad, you know, image. The coach have no idea how to manage this guy or how to tactical way or like this. and it's so opposite it's so unfair that is why sometimes it's difficult when you have the responsibility to talk about what you are seeing and sometimes you can explain what is happening on the pitch it's not to guess what the coach was telling before or not telling and that is an example that was tough to manage all this around because after Messi is not going to think about that but they said player listen to that they say yes the coach is bad because look at the coach but that's why I think platforms like this are important where there's time to sit and actually talk properly about what happens because otherwise it's quick headlines it's quick soundbites from pundits and you're left really without a voice you can't say what you're thinking because you know there's politics there's players being taken off to go and do media things there's all sorts of stuff happening that you can't talk about how do you protect your mental health when you know the truth and the world thinks something different has that ever been a problem?

50:24yeah that is a big I think that relationship keeps us held in between us, in between the coaching staff this good relationship the possibility to talk about very open talks seems that they are very sometimes difficult to talk with some people is to have the trust to talk in between us. Very, very, being very honest. It's not to keep nothing inside. Of course, I appreciate a lot psychologists, coaches, and ladies that can help in this way. And that is a serious thing that is not to banalize or to not to talk very, you know, in a cheap way. I think it's important to be very respectful, but in that case for us, we create a group of people, or I have lucky, that we protect ourselves together.

51:22At the moment, I think we are dealing well with this situation. It's true that it's tough. some example some people from the club when that moment happened when Messi was out some people came and said oh, why you put off Messi, no off the pitch? I said no, because it was a problem yeah, but the player said that it was good I said no, no, no I have all my information through the doctor that was a problem in his knee yeah but he said that he can stay in the beach and you know why the people that came to the Parc des Princes paid the ticket to see 90 minutes Messi, Neymar, Mbappé I said yes but I want to win and we won the game no I am the coach I work for the club for the fans, for the players and in this moment we were talking because it was a tough situation that not the player because Messi didn't say nothing to me but around it's creating that you know energy negative and look that my wife is going to kill now what they're going to say because after I start to appear people know what is doing Pochettino have no clue why Messi out boom boom boom social media killing you because all the Argentine people, the Barcelona fans, the this, blah, blah, blah, blah.

53:04Okay. That coach have no clue. I remember I arrived because I was living in the hotel. My girl was in the bed. I go to the toilet, came, I go to bed and she was watching me, seeing me like this. I said, what happened? I said, my love. I said, why? Why what? Why you took off Messi of the picture he said look now what you created big big mess we cannot be relaxed I thought you were going to say my wife my wife said it's okay I'm here for you I love you she went why are you taking Messi out why are you not keeping the inside but it's true it's true that is it's unreal I can't explain today I can't explain today, no?

53:59But a few years ago, I can't explain. But this type of situation, you know, is so nice. I think it's fun because we don't criticize no one, but it's in the way that the people see in a different way, you know, the things, you know? And this is important because this isn't being critical of anyone, but it gives people who never see the opportunity to understand the pressure, to understand that there are a million things happening and you're at the center of a storm often, yeah? Well, you know, this environment. Sometimes you need to protect your company. You need to protect, you know, it's not just your image.

54:34Just to protect the situation because tomorrow is another day and in two days you have a game and you cannot create and stick in the past with a situation. So move on, it's crucial, but move on in a nice way. But also we have to protect ourselves. Sometimes we have to challenge ourselves, but most of the times we need to remind ourselves how good we are on what we do, on the good things that we do. You know, it's not to be arrogant, but when you do some things in a nice way and you have to remind how good to protect yourself because if you pay attention to headlines, comments, or, you know, or what our environment, you know, tried to tell us, oh, have you seen this newspaper?

55:22Have you seen Sky Sports? Have you seen, you know, and say, hey, be careful. We need to protect ourselves We do read, we do listen, we do watch. There are people who say, I don't read, I don't watch. No, it's not. We do, but we need to give the same consideration to a bad headline as the same as a good headline. Because if you pay attention to a tweet with 10 likes that is negative and you get mad, you have to say, if there are a good tweets with six likes, it's really good, and six likes or ten likes, it's nothing. because you don't know, you know. Even if it's a million likes, it means, I wouldn't say nothing, but that's not the reality.

56:01So sometimes we need to project ourselves, you know, reminding, okay, we do right things. We win, we lose, that's a sport. But it's not everything instantly negative. I love your belief in universal energy, that things happen for a reason, right? Because actually, if you look at your career from even just meeting each other at Espanol and having that great success at Tottenham, getting all the way to the final, but actually ultimately feeling heartbreak. Going to Chelsea where the team was struggling, transforming the team. Going to Paris Saint-Germain where that is an experience that you will never get and very few people will ever have.

56:37All of those things are almost necessary to go to the United States and coach the team in the run-up to a World Cup being hosted in the United States. so it's almost essential that you've had these experiences because you have the hope of a nation now resting on your shoulders and I've heard reports that there is a belief within you and a belief within that squad that you can win the World Cup like is that real? Do you really believe that that is a possibility? I'm going to say one thing and I start from the end and then we go to the beginning in the draw of the World Cup I was, you know, with the opportunity to meet for a few minutes to Donald Trump, Mr.

57:23President. He asked me, what do you think, coach, you can win the World Cup? And I said, of course, Mr. President. Because it's USA. You know, always the American dream is there. And always the American culture is about to be first and be the number one. and when we accept the challenge to go there it's because we really believe that we can win and then we don't know if we will win or not because that depends on different things but I think we are in a place that after one year and a half that we are working there people start to feel that we can win I think the last few camps in October and November we compete with very good again very good team and we were capable to start to show that possibility you know to perform well I think that is is like you say it's a massive pressure to be the coach because the expectation is massive but I think we need to transform that pressure in energy to really ensure you know about that we are going to have you know the support of a massive country massive fans in behind eyes to try to to push us to run, to perform, to score goals, you know, to make tackles.

58:48It's about to, we are already working in this, in trying, you know, to transform. We have some meetings now with all the staff, you know, in America, implement some, you know, mindset. We already did in the past, but trying to arrive in the World Cup with the idea of enjoy and absorb the energy that the people is going to translate in a positive way, knowing being a massive pressure and, you know, because I think the pressure is going to, you know, to make you very cautious about to do things and not to take risks. But if you are capable, we are capable to transform this energy and to come on, go and perform and be freedom.

59:41I think it's going to be a massive, you know, boost for us to perform.

59:51There was a sign from one of your meeting rooms that you had, the quote from the management writer, Peter Drucker, that culture eats strategy for breakfast and it went viral. I'm interested in how you're finding the challenge of creating a culture that you've successfully done within clubs and translating that into an international environment where your time with players is so much more limited. Yeah, but it's really similar. Maybe with less time and maybe you spend more time, but it's similar. Because the culture is about your habits, your small thing that you create and you settle like principles, you know?

1:00:28In the way that after you are going to behave like a group, it's in the way that you are going to behave off first of the field and then on the field. This type of thing, maybe you spend a little bit more time and it's more long way to achieve. But I think we already, I think we achieved this and that we create a very good culture about in the way that we expect to behave and to perform too because it's about to create good habits to put our standard really high to after to, you know, to have the possibility to have a very strong platform to, you know, to go and to show our quality. But I think it's in the way that we, it's true that we spend maybe a little bit more time because it's not easy, because sometimes you don't have time.

1:01:25But I think now we are in a point that I think Jesus can confirm or not. That is true. I think we are in a very good moment. And I think we arrived, I think, on time to prepare now March and then to go to the World Cup in our best condition. When organization makes a change, it's because something has to be different. I'm not saying improve it. And what we found there is like off basics, I will say, for whatever reason, because they were in a transition or whatever. What we did is just to assess under our vision. We didn't go there to teach anyone, to show how to do things. It's just to try to convince a group of players and a group of staff that we can be competitive.

1:02:20Because if we go to the FIFA ranks and we try to do the same that Spain, England or Germany, they do, we are different because we have a unique situation where half of the squad plays in different leagues in Europe, first and second division. The other guys, they play in MLS, whereas 98 % or 99 % of the English players, they play Premier League or Germany or Spain. Spanish guys, 96 % play in Spain. So it's different situations. And as Mauricio said, since the Gold Cup, I think something grew inside of the group, that belief, that commitment, the message from them. And it makes us believe that we can be in a short competition, very competitive in the way that we can be a tough team.

1:03:15And let's see, he said that the standard is very high and that's the aim. Well, look, we wish you all the very best. We will be cheering you on after England, obviously. But look, today's been a real pleasure because it's so nice to get, you know, someone who I know is so important to you, but also someone who's so important to you to be next to each other. And I think it's been a really fascinating insight into your relationship. I think the final question really is, among all the pressure and the need to win and the media scrutiny and the players you're dealing with, have you both managed to take time to stop and realize that you have not lived ordinary lives?

1:03:53Like, what a pleasure to have experienced the things that you've both experienced for the last 20 or 30 years? When we came from now from a restaurant that we were to here, we were talking about that. That was a really good question. Because we were talking about when we were a child, when we, our dreams, how we see each other when we were, I don't know, 10, 12 years old. And we were, you know, we said, we are here in London, in one of the best cities in the world. going to do an amazing podcast with you guys. And I said, we were talking, and we need to congratulate. And I said, well done, Jesus, because, no, we are living in a dream, in a dream, because I came also for a very humble, you know, family, and I was in the middle of nowhere where I was born in Argentina.

1:04:49I never think that I'm going to be here, no? But now I represent the most powerful country, one of the most powerful countries, that is America. We are the coaches of America. And we had the opportunity to meet people like, no, it's the president of America. And you say, oh my goodness. I think we need to enjoy also. It's not to be under stress, under stress and sinking and trying to change the rabbit and not to enjoy in between us or in between with our family. We try. We are very people that we are with the feet in the grass. And we also, I think we take time to enjoy. Amazing. Well, look, before we finish, we've just got one last thing to do.

1:05:32Oh, by the way, we've had some lemons in here for the universal energy. I knew that you were going to. Why are they so important? It's so important because a friend that really cared about me, one day said to me, Mauricio, you need to protect your space where you work. I said, but how? You put a bowl of lemon because the lemon protects you from the energy of the people that have no good energy. And if it came someone to your office, the lemon is going to attract the bad energy. Rather, to go to you, go to the lemon, and then you throw the lemon to the bin and it's not going to affect you. That is why.

1:06:21And you believe that? I believe. but look how healthy that lemon looks that's because the energy of the room is so good ok right that's yours and that's yours now you're not allowed to show each other yeah this is a prior you've got to give us some answers to the following questions and we'll see how similar your answers are don't show my wife is with you your wife is so the first question is the player that you believe you've enjoyed the closest tightest relationship with So you do Jesus and he does yours. Ah. I'm taking a risk now.

1:07:01Ooh, it's difficult. Because it's fuel. Jesus, which player has he had the best relationship with, do you think, or the closest? I mean, he is very good with, but I would say Hugo Lloris. Hugo Lloris. Is that true? It's true. is one of the closer yes yes yes okay Jesus what do you think he's written down I think Harry he's still writing on there hi Mbappé you say yeah because he was he's your coach specialist coach come on in finishing yeah he was my coach he was my coach yeah yeah yeah he was a special relationship in Paris with him. He's very close. Intense with Harry longer. Okay, the next one then is, so for each of you, who is the player that has surprised you most in your career?

1:08:05Nay. Okay, for me, Mason. Mason. Ryan Mason. Ryan Mason, yeah. Surprised us, I think, because when we arrived to Tottenham and we need to give the credit to Sean McDermott, when we arrived to Tottenham, he was was devastated Ryan Mason and our first meeting was in in the in the gym and he was a guy that was I said what happened with you no I came from five no different loan in the last few years and I was anxious oh relax you be be positive you are going to be with us during six months I really trust in Sean McDermott what he said to me that was one of the best, because Sean McDermott said to us, Ryan Mason was the most quality player that was in my hands in the academy of Tottenham.

1:09:00I trust in Sean, and we are going to give the opportunity, don't worry. And then we bring, for different reasons, to the preseason, and the first game that we played in Seattle with Tottenham in 2014, starting in 2011, and he understood perfectly all that we explained and how we wanted to play and wow what a brain and I said to Jesus after the game he played 45 minutes he said that is my player that is my he's my coaching side to the to the to the pitch amazing that surprised me you know in this way of course Neymar too because amazing so yours was Neymar no I thought I had to say his ah ok ok that's what you got No, I said, nay.

1:09:50Because when we signed, so Neymar was so warm with him, with us, you know. And I think, I don't know, it was the first week, one day arrives in the office and he said, Mauricio, it's not necessary for you to ask me for shares. I give you a certain amount of shares for everyone that you need to give. This is one day with shares. Another day with perfumes of his, you know, brands. So he has a heart that is so big. Despite his moment in his football career, as a human, he was someone that was ahead. Never lie. Things that are unique as a player. And then gifted, you know, like everyone else. But he's being judged by other things.

1:10:43but that's why you know in terms of surprise you know so we were surprised with a kind of justice from him you know because the way he is it's amazing isn't it how you have one opinion of someone and then you realise your opinion is totally wrong I want you to write down what is the trophy Maurizio would most like to win in his career and you must write down what do you think is the trophy that Jesus would most like to win in his career it's so easy now I think these might be the same. So let's turn them around at the same time. In three, two, one. He has two dreams. He's at the same level. His dream, Champignon.

1:11:27Champignon in Spain. Champion League. Champion League. But his is at the same level. For me, Champion League and Premier League. Premier League at the same level. Of course, the World Cup. But Champion League and Premier League for me is a thing that I don't know how but I'm going to achieve for sure I don't know in which club but do you believe really believe that one day you will win the Premier League as a manager yes how important is it to believe that it's really important if you don't believe in things if you have belief you have you know that you know hunger and passion and fire it's difficult to to achieve but I think it's always we were talking about that I think Champion League is it's amazing because it's a dream too like a World Cup but the Premier League because we really love you know the English football and because football born here and we we had the possibility we were so lucky to spend a lot of time in in Wembley that is the it's icon for us it's a It's an amazing, you know, stadium.

1:12:45I think we deserve, Jesus. I think we deserve. And we are going to try. And for sure, we are going to get. In which club? I don't know. I cannot tell you because I don't have a club. I don't own a club. But the thing is we are now in our best moment like our coaching staff. Because we're still young. we have energy we have are you the best manager you've ever been I think so I think so I think so I think I can be better because I think I think you can improve but I think today I think we have the capacity and the the knowledge the balance to provide to the you know to the every single or any any club or any company good good things I think What is the club that holds the most special place in Mauricio's heart?

1:13:45Mauricio, if you can answer it for Jesus, which club holds the most special place? For him, the most special, like a coach.

1:14:00And turn the boards around. It's clear. This is very simple.

1:14:08It's very simple. we will agree and this the final final question why Spurs? okay the connection always was was amazing with Daniel when we arrived to feel the trust of the owner of the club like Daniel Levy was make us to feel like I said before we asked for to create a laboratory there and he spent money to provide us what we wanted he trust from the beginning and And he supports us to arrive where we arrive.

1:14:46And our success in Tottenham, not winning a game, sorry, not winning a trophy, is complete unfair, no? Because when we arrive, I think in the way that we have the possibility to create something special in Tottenham with the project that we had ahead to build a new stadium, to finish the training ground and to create the facilities that today Tottenham is one of the best clubs in the world in terms of facilities. That was because you need the trust of the owner, the trust of the guy and the vision that have Daniel to create this and then support and have the patient with us because from the beginning it wasn't easy.

1:15:36and then people really appreciate our job and I think the connection was was really really strong and then of course we with all the effort I think in the way that we built all this history together that we were so close to win the champion league or the premier league because it's not true that we didn't want to win titles like Carabao Cup or FAA. The problem was that we were focusing too many places. It's to build the stadium. It's to move to Wembley. We played in Milton Keynes some games. I remember that all the fans moving around and it was really difficult for everyone. At the same time, you know very well when that is unsettled, that situation is difficult to keep performing with the team.

1:16:34Not too much money to invest in players. If not, we were very creative in all these type of situations. I think we were very successful and that I think we create very good emotions with the fans. And that keeps in the memories of the way that we play, in the way that we approach the games, in the way that we... I was watching last day in Sky the Battle of the Bridge in between Chelsea and Tottenham and what a game amazing in the way that we play and the way that we you know care about the club I think all this has emotional keep and today I think it's unbelievable because still the people on the on the street the fans of the Tottenham really show the the love and the appreciation and I think that is why it's so special no Spurs because we live a moment that when you I was a very young coach from Southampton where we came and Daniel really trust in us and give the confidence and the patience for us to provide, you know, to show our quality like our coaches.

1:17:42And that is not too many clubs that can do. And then the fans that really appreciate. It's a little bit, you know, it's a little bit unfair to compare this period with another period because it's true that now Tottenham is a club that needs to think to win the Premier League and the Champions League because facilities are Champions League. And in the past, we didn't have that. But now it's about to win the Premier League or the Champions League. I think it's true that the fans today appreciate because we were challenging for Premier League and for Champions League. To win an Europa League that the team won is good.

1:18:27Because when you celebrate a trophy, that is good. But it's not enough. It's not enough for a club like Tottenham. It's not enough to challenge for the Carabao Cup or the FA Cup or the Europa League or the conference. It's a club that should be or need to be because the fans, the test of football or what they expect is to be in the Champions League, fighting for the Champions League, trying to believe that you can win the Champions League and also fighting for the Premier League and believing that you can win the Premier League. Well, you love Tottenham. You want to win the Premier League. And Tottenham now have the facilities to win the Premier League.

1:19:08Let's see what the universal energy does. Now we are focusing USA. Exactly. And we are going for the World Cup. Return to the Premier League as World Cup winners. And we'd be excited for you. Listen, good luck in the summer. I think the United States national men's team and so lucky to have you both and the team around you and it's great to see our old friends again. So thank you very much for coming on. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be with you.

1:19:36Damien. Jake. I mean, what a fascinating conversation with two remarkable men. The first time that we've ever had a manager and a coach together and I actually think the fact they were here together just provided a little bit of almost like emotional security for both of them to maybe talk more openly than maybe they would have done it if they were just on their own with the glare of the lights and the camera on them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what a brilliant description Hazus offered us when we said, what role do you play in it? Connector. Yeah. First word out of his mouth, Connector. I build relationships.

1:20:08I'm the bridge from Mauricio to the rest of the world. And that's exactly what he did here, wasn't it? And I just love the fact that this gives us a chance to meet the people. Not the coach, not the manager, but the people. Actually understand Mauricio, understand Hazus. I mean, even these lemons being in here, you know, this is an easy thing to laugh at, right? That someone believes that lemons can change the energy in a room. But actually, it's not about the fact that these can change the energy in a room. This gives you an insight into how emotionally connected Maurizio is with his staff, with his players, with himself, how these tiny things make a big difference to him and how he manages, I think, from what he spoke today, more with his heart than his head, you know, or certainly equally heart and head.

1:20:49Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, even the lemons, like you say, what it does is, It's almost like it's a prompt to get you to think about negative energy because he tells you the story that this absorbs negative energy. So then immediately you start thinking, am I giving off negative energy? You start thinking about how you conduct yourself. So he's getting you to start to become more self-aware of how you conduct yourself. And then you listen to his levels of self-awareness that he has in himself. But what was the thing that stood out when he spoke about these elite players, Cole Palmer, Harry Kane, Lionel Messi?

1:21:21it was the self-awareness that they had. You know that Cole Palmer anecdote of coming in after three training sessions at Chelsea and going, I'm not at the level you need, I need to work harder. That's an amazing level of just being able to look at yourself in a dispassionate way and not make excuses, but to be responsible. And also a reminder that they're human beings. He goes home after a big night as the manager of PSG and his own wife asks him why he's taken Messi off. but I thought the boards that they messed around with at the end here I've got Maurizio, you've got Jesus there I mean the fact that he's written down he wants to win they love Spurs and Jesus believes that Maurizio wants to win the Champions League and the Premier League I mean I think if that's not predicting the future what is because I believe what he says that Tottenham are ready to win a major trophy they're a club ready for it and I just have this feeling that that's really where he sees his future Yeah definitely but what I took out of it was the absolute sense of certainty that I'm going to achieve this.

1:22:24Yeah, I will win the Premier League. Yeah, yeah, there was no seed of doubt that's a man on a mission with the confidence to believe he's got the skills and the resources to be able to achieve it. Amazing. Well, look, your lemon went rotten while we were talking so improve your energy. That says more about me, yeah. And what a great conversation. Thank you, mate. Oh, mate, I loved it. What a privilege. Absolutely. And don't forget, if you want more conversations with football managers or people in elite sport, then just check them all out here on our YouTube channel. And please make sure that you hit subscribe.

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1:23:21you