Reflections on the Rugby World Cup | with Clive Woodward, Dan Carter, Siya Kolisi, Eddie Jones, Sam Burgess, Danny Cipriani and Eddie Jones

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1:23Hi there, you're listening to High Performance with Jake Humphrey and Professor Damien Hughes. And this is us looking ahead to the Rugby World Cup, which starts today in France. And we both feel really lucky, right, to be involved in high performance, Damien. I think one of the things that makes us feel like that the most is that we see and hear things from elite people in sport that you just normally would never get access to. And actually in the rugby world, that rings true, doesn't it? We've had some unreal conversations the last few years. yeah we've had a real privilege to be able to go into the training grounds to be able to have access to the dressing rooms and to hear the innermost thoughts of some of the greatest people that have ever been involved in the sport and to understand a little bit about not just what they did but why and how they went about doing it it's been a real privilege and you might love this podcast because you like hearing from actors or comedians or entrepreneurs or megastars in the world of entertainment right so don't immediately think oh rugby episode I'm going to switch off because the truth is we're about to play a few clips from some of the greatest names who've had some of the most fascinating insights to offer us and none of it actually is about rugby all of it is about life and culture and human beings and connection yeah there's a great example of it when we interviewed Rob Baxter the Exeter Chiefs head coach when he spoke around that question that has defined his coaching career of would I be happy for my son to be coached by me and in his first few years he said well the answer is no and that forced him to do some serious self-reflection and decide what he could do better to create an environment where people can thrive and that's essentially what the conversations that we've had with some of these great names has been about how do you create a culture and an environment where everybody can act to their own potential and if we're talking about building a culture we have to start with a man who built the culture at England Rugby that delivered the Rugby World Cup in 2003 one of the most popular episodes we've ever brought you because this man talks about something called teamship and the nut I mean I still get daily people sending me messages about what Sir Clive Woodward had to say to us so we'll talk about him in a moment but first this is what was said when Sir Clive Woodward joined us on High Performance.

3:38the way i basically did it was i have this saying that you know great teams met great individuals i mean i'll never underscore the importance of teamwork and working together as a team of people but i think if there's a secret to teamwork if you get every individual work at his or her optimum level and becoming world class the team still becomes a lot easier to do and i've always had this vision of sort of and it happened to me being in charge of a team you're looking around the room and you got half the team would be in any any team in the world they're the best in the world so the individual has got to take responsibility for the individual training and this is what i've got across the players that if we want to be successful yes you've got to be this individual you've got to become the best in the world better than any other prop forward second row fly half in the world but also you've got to contribute to the team if you're not we're not going to win you know i still like bringing players here every single player would come to a house and you know just to sit down one-on-one meet jane meet the kids and get across to them this is a once in a lifetime opportunity here but i need it from you as well as me you're going to get from buckets for me and the coaching team but to be really successful it's going to be a two two-way thing and and i think that's what we did and i you know i can't praise that team high enough hugely talented players but the the real secret was led by johnson led by delaglio you know they got this they did contribute they they weren't yes men they did question me the other coaches in a real positive way.

4:56And that's the way you can develop a team of people. But you've got to do it one by one. You've got to persuade every individual that I need you to be part of this. Or if you're not, I would question you being in this team. Yeah, that phrase that you spoke about there, that great teams are made up of great individuals, is just such a powerful insight that we sometimes think that we have to sort of fuse ourselves to be part of a greater collective, that we have to dilute the person that we are and our own characteristics that make us unique. And what Clive offered us was the idea that actually you embrace people where they are on their terms, and then you get them to somehow understand how they can contribute to the wider picture.

5:38And I think that's really important that over the next six weeks as we watch the World Cup, we're going to see some great individual talents. But it reminds me of that great quote that a great player is only somebody that makes the team better. and I think that's what Clive was really successful at doing in his seven years when he was the England head coach. We've also spoken to lots of players on High Performance. One of the greatest rugby players of all time and for you listening to this in New Zealand, as soon as I say Dan Carter, I'm sure you have a big smile across your face and actually it relates to this point because sometimes you meet people and they're disappointing.

6:14When Dan Carter came on High Performance and we've spoken to him twice, he is the epitome of a team player. I mean, I will never forget after we interviewed him on stage in London, sitting around, having a beer afterwards. He was just one of the team. He was cracking a few jokes, telling a few stories. He didn't want to rush off and disappear with his entourage. He didn't turn up with an entourage. It was him on his own. He left backstage and went into the auditorium and he met people that wanted an autograph or a signed picture. And I think you can look at them as little things or you can see that actually those are things he's learned throughout his rugby career because you don't get his success by being an individual.

6:50Yeah, he used that great phrase, didn't he, where he said about hot-dogging, the idea of getting high on your own supply or thinking that you're better than what you really are, how in the culture at the All Blacks, they'd quickly bring people back down to earth and make them, remind them that this is a team sport. And Dan was a great example of when we did the event in Hackney, he was a team player. He wanted us all to walk away feeling that would enjoy success. And if we listen to this clip of him talking about how no team had ever done two back-to-back World Cup victories, so post-2011, when they won it for the first time in 20-odd years, it took us into that team meeting where they decided how they were going to become the world's most dominant team.

7:36For us, we had an incredible vision in 2011 where we'd just won the World Cup and we wanted to be the most dominant team in the history of World Rugby. Okay, so you've got a clear vision that the team's working towards. It's not actually a vision that you'll reach one day, something you'll strive towards, you'll walk towards, but you'll never actually put the flag in the ground and go, yeah, we're the most dominant team in the history of World Rugby. That's for other people to determine. And if you're in that conversation, you're doing something well. But then within the team purpose and vision, it's really important that every person has a personal purpose.

8:12What's their purpose? Why are they there? And how does that fit into the team purpose? So we used to spend a lot of time on sharing our personal purpose with our coaches, our management, so they knew exactly where you would fit in. And if someone wasn't fitting in, then it's one of the most difficult conversations you can have. But if you've got a culture of just beating around the bush and not able to confront your teammates. so we had a really strong leadership group and we would always be challenging the players we're always challenging the coaches and vice versa so you're in an environment where you can stand up and have those really difficult conversations and you're not doing it because it's a personal attack you're doing it for the better of the team so going back to your team vision these conversations are happening because you care so much about the team okay so i'm having this conversation with you because what's best for the team so all your decision making needs to to be around that and you know we had an environment where if guys were we used to call a hot dogging you know if they were hot dogging a little bit too much um you know and and it was it was actually something really light-hearted you know it's you know someone's hot dogging on social media you know you'd kind of put it up and you know before your team meetings and okay look he's doing a shirtless photo and even though that's fun and humorous and guys would laugh and you're taking the mickey out of each other there was an underlying fact it was like come on let's go team first so there was there's a real um you know a real thing in about making sure that you know the team comes first I know that that's not an example of someone being a dicky that's actually just a light-hearted way of saying hey come on let's put the team first so that's Dan Carter sharing with us what the all blacks did to win back-to-back rugby world cups and very best of luck to all of our listeners in New Zealand over the next few weeks but what about South Africa what about the South Africa captain what about the first black springbok captain to lift the rugby world cup Sia Khaleesi also joined us on high performance and the reason why I think this is really great after hearing from Dan Carter is that rugby and all sports requires a team effort but it requires a team effort where you need cultural architects you need people who are going to drive the culture you need followers and you need leaders you can't all be leaders and Seel Kualisi was the epitome of a leader because he's the epitome of an empathetic human being you know what did someone say to you before we met him he gives the best hugs of anyone I know and actually I think that that quote sums up my feelings about Sia Kulisi we recorded this remotely and that's why the audio isn't as good as we would like but you know what I felt like I'd had a hug from Sia Kulisi despite the fact that he was in South Africa and we were in the UK yeah I remember coming off that call and saying to my wife that I feel I've just met a man that's playing a different game than the rest of us this is a man that's going to go on and influence lives and generations and communities long beyond his rugby playing career because he's a man that just embodies decency, integrity and humility.

11:31And they were the cornerstones of the Springbok success back in 2019. Let's listen to him talk about representing all of South Africa. This is what the country that we come from. But all of these struggles and problems make us so much stronger and we are not under pressure. We are actually privileged because we are playing. what we produce on that field can put a smile on someone for it can change the whole country's mood if you think you're under pressure now think about where you come from how you didn't have food it's only 80 minutes you can change the narrative for the next kid who is in the same situation as you but by you winning this you can get all this like people working with you and you can go back and change the narrative for the next couple of kids so when he started speaking like that in that final game, it became personal because for me personally, for what I was playing for, and then for us as a team who were playing for South Africa, it wasn't about us anymore.

12:31It was about the country itself, the whole mood of the country. What could this win do for us? And when he was finished talking, I wasn't even thinking about losing then. To me, it was game over. Now, you can argue that it's a bit twee, right? Because there will be people who are listening to this, some of whom are elite sports people some of whom want to be some of whom maybe once were and a lot of them will think no no I did that for myself I loved winning I loved being successful I loved the trappings of success but there is a real truth to that isn't there that that togetherness is what can allow you to have your individual success and we've spoken to players who never felt that togetherness they never felt that they were part of something special and the truth is that they didn't achieve what they wanted to in their national team's jersey and they will be living now with a regret of of those times yeah when I'm lucky enough to work with teams one of the simple exercises I often get them to do is I divide it up into hard versus soft skills so if we class hard skills as how fast you can run how heavy the weights you can lift are the speed of um you'll get into the gain line and back they're the hard stuff the soft stuff is confidence communication cohesion as a team unit and I asked them to tell me the best teams have been part of what's the proportionality and I've yet to meet a successful team that doesn't tell me about 30 % of the success is the hard stuff but 70 % is the softer skills the ability to feel that you connect that you belong that you're part of a wider group and I think the next two interviews we're going to listen to both the brilliant Danny Cipriani and Sam Burgess that came in from Rugby League to play for England Rugby Union they told us really powerfully how when those softer skills are not taken care of effectively, the toxic impact it can have on both the individual and on the wider culture.

14:27You look at that England Rugby Union squad, the coaching staff especially, Stuart Lancaster, after the World Cup, he got sacked or wherever he stood down. He's gone on to Leinster. He's been the Leinster head coach for six years. The last four years have been the most dominant team in the whole of Europe. So it's not like he wasn't a great coach. Andy Farrell, who was the assistant coach, he's now head coach of Ireland. They're currently number one in the world. Graham Roundtree, he's at Munster, and they've improved outside in the last four years since he's been there. And Mike Catt is off being...

15:05That was our coaching staff. They're accomplished coaches. They've gone on into the next phase of their careers and gone on to be ultra-successful, not just won a few games over here and there, number one national team in the world at the moment. Leinster, number one team in Europe. Graham Roundtree's taken Munster to a different place, and Mike Katz has been successful where he's been. It's like, so you had accomplished people in leadership roles, but I just don't think the players are willing to pay the price to be successful. And that's the line. I can sit here and say that now, and if players from that environment had the courage and the honesty to come out and say it, then I think you'd hear it from a few more people.

15:48But I think a lot of them don't like to be honest with it because it was a failed year and it was easy for them to point a finger at a few different things throughout the year. But from that campaign, there's not one bit of regret for what I gave to my country, to the team in those. Of course, I made mistakes. I was new to the game. but someone sent me a funny stat the other day of when whilst playing for England Rugby Union, we were never behind on the scoreboard whilst I was on the field. Right. Never once, except we played against Australia at Twickenham. I was on the bench, they brought me on with 15 minutes to go and we were losing.

16:33That's the only time I was ever behind on the scoreboard. I feel as a culture English culture I feel as a sporting country I believe we're behind the eight ball I believe we're behind it we don't the way we speak about each other in the media and so on as I mentioned I don't think it allows us to fully get into our authentic selves because we're all trying to be a type of way because we don't want people to know the truth because the truth is terrible No, it's not. Everyone goes through the same things. It's just a different spotlight. It's a different version. You know, everyone's got something you can learn from everyone.

17:14Everyone can be relatable. Everyone has those emotions. And, you know, I hope that that's something that can get changed and it can do. and I see somewhere like America where I feel their athletes get to own their own narrative and they get to be more authentic. And you see the levels of performance and the genius and the talent, the consistency. But also they have a lot of fun off the field and they make changes and they go to communities and they build and they create massive, you know, better environments for people that they were like when they were younger and so on and so on. And I believe we miss a huge disconnect or a potential or an opportunity in this country to do so because we have this stiff upper lip mentality, this English culture, which has got so many positives to it, you know, so many.

18:07But just relaxing and being vulnerable and being truthful, why is that seen as such an outrageous thing to do in this country? So there you go. That was first of all, Sam Burgess, followed by Danny Cipriani on culture and environment and the struggles that both of them faced in their careers. And I think that this is so relevant you know let's take um danny cipriani and johnny wilkinson as two great examples both have delivered amazing podcasts on high performance what's johnny wilkinson's podcast called i am what's danny cipriani's new book called who am i the truth is that even in these elite sports teams in every single environment in every business of every person listening to this we understand that we're there to take the team in a certain direction but finding who we are and what we are and what we represent in that team is the secret source we talk about getting to players hearts not players heads don't we well do you remember when danny spoke to us in in in that brilliant interview that he gave us and he said that a lot of his what people described as dysfunctional behaviors like sleeping with lots of different women now going out in night clubs or behaving sometimes erratically was all just his desire to belong and he said all he wanted was a coach to tell him that I cared about the person not the player to see him for who he was and I think when that isn't there when we don't feel that sense of belonging we try and find it in lots of different ways that can often undermine the culture and the team and the ethos so I think the criticality of this is going to be important I I've no doubt that whoever stands on the podium at the World Cup final, hosting that trophy aloft.

19:48He's going to be the team where the strength of the relationships are stronger than anybody else's. And one man who would love to be holding the World Cup aloft in a few weeks time is Eddie Jones, former England coach. He's now leading Australia. Shout out to all our Aussie listeners as well. And Eddie, Eddie's a very interesting character, isn't he? You know, we can talk about the soft skills. We can talk about building culture. We can talk about finding your place in a team. The truth is elite sport is brutal the truth is that finding success is difficult the truth is that you can't carry passengers and the truth is you have to fit into the culture that that coach decides to employ and I have to say I got a feeling from Eddie Jones that it is his way or the highway when he joined us on high performance yeah I agree I think one of the things he did when he first came in that he told us when he came into English rugby was he tried to work out what makes you special and unique let's not try and be a hybrid version of the all blacks let's look at what makes us unique and it was about being hard-nosed and belligerent and difficult to beat and I think he built on those blocks the culture of his first England team some people might argue that he lost sight of that or maybe got a little bit confused but I think this is a man that's gone into lots of different rugby cultures whether it was with Australia first time round and again now when he went into the South African rugby team to support Jake White in 2007.

21:12This is a man that's been able to adapt his style accordingly. And I think your point is right, that he's a man, though, that never loses sight of the fact that this is about victory, this is about winning. I think the conversation where he told us that sometimes that's not for everybody is a really important reminder. Well, I think you have to have focus. I think focus is a big thing. I don't think the number of hours or the time or the volume of work is the important thing. I think it's the focus. And, you know, again, one of the books I've read and I've spoken to this guy is that Cal Newport who's written deep work and just your ability to work out when you're the most productive and make sure you set that time to do the best.

21:57The challenge for people in the modern world with social media and constant, this era of information. and to do the most difficult work when you're at your best and then when are you at your best uh either early in the morning or late at night so how do you cut through all of the shit at that time of day to just focus well i usually go in about 5 a.m and 5 a.m to 6 a.m is usually my most productive time but then after that i i train where i usually get some good thoughts where i'm not even thinking but i usually get a couple of good thoughts for the day and then i'll go back to the office so generally from five to about eight is my best time and the rest of the day I don't try to do anything serious apart from just work with the players and then I'll do a little bit at night again if I'm in the right mood.

22:43Look the truth is Damien you've worked you know with many sports teams we've both gone into lots of businesses and spent time with them exacting standards matter and it's your calling card by which you live by in business or in sport And I think that, you know, Eddie Jones has exacting standards and it will be fascinating to see what he can achieve with this Australia team. Because what did he say to us? He said, oh, I'm not as intense as I used to be. I get to work at 5am now. And you and me are thinking, hold on, what time did he used to get to work? And I think he, after what happened and the way it ended with England, he will have a new fire in his belly for going and delivering that World Cup for Australia.

23:19Yeah, I think he's the perennial outsider. He told us this, that he was born to an Australian father, a Japanese mother. he never quite fitted in and I think being the underdog being the person that gets written off is almost in his DNA that's when he's at his strongest and his most belligerent and I think this tournament people are writing off the wallabies and I think that's where you'll see Eddie at his very best. Whatever walk of life you as a listener to High Performance live and exist in I hope that some of those lessons in leadership and building a culture and creating a community and a sense of belonging are really helpful to you.

23:55You can, if you wish, look in the description to this podcast. The link to each of those individual episodes are there. We've only picked out a few examples, but those episodes are full of amazing lessons. And our next episode on high performance goes even deeper into the world of elite rugby. We are joined by Steve Hansen. If I gave you 20 seconds to explain to the audience what they can expect from Steve Hansen, what would you say? Blunt, honest wisdom. them it was an iron fist and a velvet glove it was really exacting standards but done by a man that cares deeply and i think you'll the listeners will hear that when they tune in okay if you would like to hear it now then you can do all you need to do is download the high performance app just go to the app store download the app and use the code hp app for exclusive early access to that conversation with steve hanson and so much more only on the high performance app thanks a lot Damien?

24:50Thanks Jake, loved it and I'm looking forward to this tournament. Who wins it? I'm going to go with South Africa. I am as well.

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