René Meulensteen: Ronaldo's Man Utd Coach Reveals the Secrets Behind the Sir Alex Era (E337)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. see the ball going and I thought to myself nah and he hits it perfectly on the volley banging it back in the net basically that sums up everything that I felt with United at the time That is the voice of René Moulinstein first team coach at Manchester United during their greatest era under Sir Alex Ferguson a time when the club won five Premier League titles and the Champions League René has also worked with football icons like Wayne Rooney, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs and so much more including a key role in the emergence of Cristiano Ronaldo. Now Damien, you're a red, I know you would have enjoyed this conversation, but it was deeper than football, wasn't it?

1:05It was about culture and creating that culture at United. Yeah, and René was a key figure of it, Jake, and he shares with us the insights on Alex Ferguson's golden principles of how he set up the club. He takes us into the mindset of Cristiano Ronaldo and understanding his journey from the very beginning to being one of the world's greatest footballers and he explains why you should never use the word change when you're dealing with elite athletes and finally he doesn't hold back on the current state of Manchester United. Is it also true that he gave you something like unbelievable about how Fergie time was created?

1:41Absolutely I mean it's fascinating this those late winners that became synonymous with the club weren't an accident they were a design just wait till you hear him explain it. I can't wait to listen to this one anytime someone can uncover what it takes to unlock potential develop that winning mindset and handle pressure at the highest level i am listening so i'm looking forward to it and make sure you stick around to the end of today's show we've got a short but really helpful conversation for anyone listening keen to grow their business overseas because here at high performance we've teamed up with the uk government department for business and trade and their free training program the uk export academy stick around for that but right now please welcome to High Performance, Sir Alex Ferguson's former right-hand man at Manchester United, René Moulinstein.

2:29René, welcome to High Performance. It's a real privilege to have you here. Now, you were the first team coach at Manchester United during the golden era of Sir Alex Ferguson's reign. How do you feel looking at United now when they're in this position 12 years later? Well, straight away, start with a difficult question, Damien. How do I feel? to put it in one word, disappointed really, if you think how it all has evolved after Sir Alex Ferguson and I left in 2013 and what has happened over the last, you know, so almost 12 years. Because I don't, at that particular time, if I would walk into Carrington or the club, I would probably not recognise anything that we've had when we were there.

3:17and that's the same when I see Man United play it goes for two on and off the pitch unfortunately yeah and what do you mean when you say there's nothing you recognise I have an opinion on a little bit from outside looking in now and obviously still to some of the people that are still there that I sometimes speak to but what we had on the Sir Alex Ferguson and what Sir Alex Ferguson was so keen on and building over so many years at Manchester United was that that culture and that culture of one togetherness you know everybody felt respected everybody felt valued no matter what role you played everybody had to contribute to the success and secondly your culture of winning everything was based around winning and and that was clear you know from the set go and so from the get go so if you if you look at it now like I said that warmth that that kind of being a family like atmosphere is completely disappeared you know and I always say, you know, a lot of people, a lot of business people that go into football to buy clubs and for whatever reasons, and they run it like businesses, which obviously you have to do to some extent.

4:28But what they do forget is that they buy the heart and souls of fans in particular, which is massive. And you need to make sure that you look after that and you manage that well. And I don't think that is the case at the moment. So, like Jim Ratcliffe recently was talking about the 150th anniversary of Manchester United in 2018 and they have something called Project 21 to win the 21st title. When you look at it from the outside, how far away do you think they are from that? Is that the 150th thing that relates to the 2028 thing? Yeah, 2028. So 2028 is 150th year of Manchester United's existence.

5:13They're miles away. They're miles away because if you look at Manchester United what they've lost is a kind of an authority a kind of a fear factor a kind of an identity so to speak when Man United came to town they rolled up this is what you're going to get at this moment in time you don't know what you're going to get you know and that is I think testament for a lot of things a lot of changes that haven't taken place so many managers have come and go you know which changes constantly about you know playing styles we got Amarim in at this moment was very keen on persisting to that 3-4-3 system where everybody is debating and questioning, is that the right way forward?

5:53That constant winning culture that Manchester United had over the years has been diluted. And they look being further away than ever before. So look at the position in the Premier League, the 14th, 13th, the 14th, no chance to getting into the top four or very little chance to get into Europe as well. so you know the Ropa League is a massive competition for them to make sure that they stay in that and that might be the back door for them to get into the Champions League Amorim is particularly wedded to his system he's famously come out and said that if he's asked to change his plan A he will walk rather than adapt what advice would you give him from the outside looking in?

6:37I find it well I find it my personal opinion is a bit short-sighted you know in that respect and I think he's I think if he's worded it different from the start, he would have not get hunted by it every single day because constantly the media will come back to him. You know, you're losing again today. Is it because of the system? I think he should have said, listen, I prefer the 3-4-3 system. I had a lot of success with it. I know it can work. I'm going to try to make it work at Manchester United. However, I need to have a look at the squad first. I need to look at how I can best use the players and utilize their strengths because that's what you want to do.

7:15And I need to get to know, obviously, the Premier League and the opponents and everything. There's so many variables that have an effect on whether that system is going to work or not. So if he would have done that, he would have been far more flexible in getting to grips with the size of the task anyway, never mind losing or winning games. Now, when you win games, things become easier, you know, because you can get your message across easier. So it is hard to say, listen, what kind of advice would you give him? because if he diverts from that, he might see it as, you know, like a kind of a weakness.

7:48So that's why he's being maybe that stubborn and stick to it. And I'm going to make it work no matter what. I don't think it would be a sign of a weakness. I would think he comes across a lot of times very, very honest. And why could you not say in that respect to say, listen, I know I've said this. However, the experiences that I've had over the last few months make me rethink and review. And I really think that it is in the best interest of all of us the team, the squad, whatever to maybe that I have to tweak a few things he has tweaked a few things when he's played Gennaccio in that number 8 role on the left hand side he give him the leeway to go on the wide areas on the line because that's where Gennaccio's strength is you know and then run at people and come inside so he has given little tweakers I also do think that you never should stuck yourself to one particular system because a system is nothing else than a framework how you're going to start the game.

8:41The moment the whistle goes, the moment the ball goes and rolls around the pitch, you know, a 4-4-2 system flows into a 4-3-3, you know, a 2-4-4, whatever the game pans out. So, that is, I think, not the most important thing.

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10:42so do you think we get too fixated with these idea of systems i do think so yeah i think the only thing is is that it's nothing else than framework i mean we always used to use with sir alex ferguson and you know in terms of you know playing the game it was mostly like you know a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 depending on whether we played with one holding six or two holding six or depending what kind of wingers that we played and all that. So you had so many flexibility in it. There was far more structure when we were defending, you know, in that respect, because there needs to be structure, there needs to be discipline.

11:16Everybody needs to know the job and do your job. However, in possession, you know, there were a certain, you know, golden rules, so to speak. But when we were coming to the attacking side, it was all based around creativity and inventivity because that creates unpredictability. We didn't want to stifle that. so yes we showed the players this opposition have conceded a lot of goals in this way so the best way to do it blah blah blah blah but then it was the players to find the solutions you know what I mean yeah yeah because if you start to try to dictate the decision making too much on the players players overthink slows down the thinking process because I tried to do the right thing for the manager instead of what is right for that moment in time in the game you know and that is what we wanted to play we wanted to empower the players give them responsibilities you know and be accountable for their own actions you know when they had the ball so I mean just as you made that comment there about allowing the players to find their own solutions and not overthink reminds me of Wayne Rooney talking about when Van Gaal was in charge at United and he describes the process of almost overthinking that he wasn't allowed to take a shot instinctively the instruction was he had to take a touch and then shoot how do you get that balance then between giving them structure and giving them that freedom to solve a problem as they see fit.

12:35Yeah, because there's a distinctive difference between, like I said, there's no leeway, no points of discussion when it comes to your tactical plan regarding defending. If you say, we're going to defend right from the front, you know what I mean? Are we going to press really high? Players need to be key on their starter positions and the cues when to press. It's not like, if you don't do that, then people start running off on their own thing, which never works. that has to be really fine-tuned. So I'll give you an example. For instance, we did a lot where we had the right wingers tugging in or the left wingers coming in, and we wanted the ball go to the left back, for instance.

13:11The cue to press was when the right winger was pressing him down when he played it back. That was the cue. A clear cue. Everybody can see it. Back pass means now we go. And then everybody squeezed up. Everybody had to press, whether the ball or the goalkeeper or an area, and people had to squeeze up. Everybody knew that. and you're almost certain about the outcome which is the ball will be played, you know, long, you know, so the defenders had to be ready to pick up and then the midfielders again turning around to pick up the second ball and you go from there or they just kicked it out of the park.

13:44But those were certain things. If you defend from a deep block, everybody knew the positions, like I said. That's clear. There's no coming away from that. On the ball, it was always about that. We always used it on tactical meetings like, tactical meetings and helping players to prepare for the game is all about trends and identifying trends. Weaknesses in opponents, you know what I mean? And we were so strong in our own beliefs in what we did as Man United. So we always used to call that meeting how we will win the game, which was basically always based around 80 to 20%, 75 to 25 % depending on opponents that we played.

14:27What I mean by that is is that 20 to 25 % I would highlight the opposition. Okay. You know, this is where they are current league form, this is the system, these are the key players, this is the current trend, da da da da. But 75 to 80 % was all about us. This is how we will win the game. That's a statement. That's what players want to hear. Yeah. You know, and throughout the season you can back it up with really strong material. If we, for instance, wanted to press really high and aggressively, I would make sure that we had clips of our own to show, listen, this is what we did in this particular game, and look what it is, you know?

15:04And you highlight the cues, the pressing, the aggressiveness, how you win the ball back, and what you did after when you win the ball back, because then it all becomes about regain, attack, or regain, retain. You keep the ball. That's what players need to know. And like I said, those are just a constant on-rolling themes. You know what I mean? Those players are clear on that. It's fine. You write a really good story in your book about ones where you talk about this 75-25 ratio and it was Patrice Evra who responded to a presentation you gave. Would you tell us about that? It was in Europe. I think a European game, Champions League game.

15:41And we had, because it was a bit of an unknown opponent and they had a really good season, you know, and the season before. That's why they were in the Champions League and we didn't want to, or I didn't want to sort of leave ourselves short by those players coming off the pitch and telling us, like, why didn't we know this? Why didn't you tell us? And so I had to show some of the good patterns of play and some of the attacking play and that was really impressive and they scored some really impressive games of goals and Patrice came to me and he said, hey, are they really that good? and it honed into me because in a three minute video or certain clips you can make almost every team really look really really strong and really good and I thought to myself alright okay I need to I might need to tweak this here because it dilutes what we want to say how we will win the game because if players go with the mindset into an opposition you know in a game like you know what I mean they're a little bit apprehensive You know what I mean?

16:46And we don't want that. But for me, it was a case of I didn't want to get caught, called by saying, you know, well, players come to me. Well, you never, you know, so that's why we highlighted that a little bit more to an extent. But I always remember Patrice saying that and I took it to heart. And eventually, you know, it was good that we did it because they did cause us some problems, but eventually we came out on top, which was good. And that's why I said to Patrice afterwards, that's why I did it. how did you temper this instinct to focus on what you could do rather than worry so much about the opposition?

17:20You gave the example there about having that balance of 75%, 85%. Were there ever occasions where you probably succumbed to that David Moyes idea of worrying too much about what other people did? No, like I said, we were in a... And especially in that particular time when I sort of was promoted to first team coach, we had a fantastic squad you know in terms and the squad was in great balance we had a lot of senior players in there that brought a lot of experience with them but we had a lot of good you know young players you know really talented players who brought so much energy and that was basically the two mantras you know energy energy and intensity and we knew that if we if we hit the right boxes and we get going we can beat anybody on the day you know that that was that was the force you know we let them worry about us you know and yes like I said sometimes we had to be really really clever like we did against when we played against a big team like AC Milan had so many fantastic players with Seidov and Beckham and Ronaldinho and Pilo and we came up with the tactical master plan to put Jisung Park on Pilo wherever he went because he wants to get in the ball we identified it he was 75 % of the guy that started everything off so we wanted to stop that that passing sort of these passing lines into other great players and he got annoyed you could clearly see that and we we brought that 75 % down to possibly around 30 % so his impact in the game was almost nothing you know and obviously we because it was it was a game of two squads with really a lot of talented players the game ended up us winning 3-2 but that's the sort of scoreline you expect of two teams with so much quality Even these answers you're giving us here, René, are fascinating.

19:12And they give us a clue as to when Dave Mackay, the great Dave Mackay, phoned up Sir Alex Ferguson and told him, I've got a coach for you here. Yeah. When he first recommended you to Manchester United. Yeah. As to what made you so good. What do you think makes a good coach? An expertise. There's a lot of things go with it, but a certain expertise, a speciality, because that is, I think, was one of the main reasons why Sir Alex Ferguson brought me in into Manchester United I brought something to the club that wasn't there I always remember Alex Ferguson saying to me you know good coaches have great imagination and I totally agree with him What do you mean by that?

19:53Or what did he mean do you think? I think one of my biggest strengths was putting the right training sessions on you know in terms of like I said my training sessions always revolved around the purpose that players understood this is why we're doing it, you know. So they also feel like whatever you come up with, I mean, I have to say this as well, Damien, because coaching at various levels requires a kind of a different approach. Working with the highest elite players requires a different kind of approach. It's not like the nationality, you know, traditional stand, you know, stop stand still coaching thing.

20:30With those players that I felt with Manchester United was, I had to inform them, you know, listen, this is our upcoming opponent, X, Y, Z. Then I had to facilitate certain aspects, which I think is important in the game, whether it was defensive aspects of the game or, again, these are the aspects that will win us the game, you know? And then more than anything, you need to give the players to take responsibility and empower them. It's their game. So I did not a lot of in-game coaching, like stopping games and all that. I knew that those players, they wanted energy, intensity, in it. You know, they wanted to flow.

21:07So there was a purpose, always making sure there was a challenge there, whatever the challenge would be. You know, it could be a tactical problem to solve or it could be a condition I put on the game. And then all the sessions revolve around quality and intensity. Those were interlinked. So if the intensity is too high, too rushed, people make mistakes. If it's too slow, it's not getting realistic. So those are the sort of things that we always put. And I was always capable in the elements that the manager showed me that he wanted me to coach in that team came back in all different kind and shape and forms so every time I challenged the players tried to basically improve the same things but in a different way so give us an example I have to basically explain a little bit to the meeting that I had with Sir Alex for the listeners to understand because when he appointed me as first team coach he brought me into his office he had his flip chart there and he said Renny you know congratulations you know you're appointed the first team coach.

22:04I don't have to tell you how to run the sessions and that's all brilliantly. But what I want is is to make sure that we're all aligned how we want Manchester United, how we want the best United to play. So I had this flip chart and he's written things down defensively. From a defensive point of view, he said, I want us to be able to press high, aggressively, talking about the cues. Sometimes we need to defend from a block. Sometimes we have to, you know, defend really deep to making sure that we don't concede too many crosses or shots at goal. but with the aim really to regain the ball and counter-attack.

22:37Obviously, we need to look after the defensive set pieces. Then he went the next thing, and he went in possession, which is important, is where we want to take the initiative of the game. All the big teams, the most important word in possession is rhythm. All great teams have players, midfielders, all the players that can create rhythm. Building up rhythm is slightly different when you get into a highly condensed area where we want to be able to switch the rhythm into one-touch pass and then movement. And then I come to the golden rules that he said we're in possession is that I want all the players to think forward, look forward, play forward.

23:12So before you even get the ball, the first solution is forward. With the aim to break lines, to play around them or play through them. That's what we want. And the next golden rule is if centre-backs, midfielders or anybody plays around the midfield line, I've got time with the ball, face forward, I want forward runs on the opposite side of the midline and what I mean by the midline is we had an invisible line right through the vertical through the pitch so we always used to sort of build up on the right hand side so the other the solutions were on the other side of the midline was on the left hand side that sort of thing so those were all golden rules and then the last flip chart was all about attack and he said when I see Manchester United attack I want to see his attack with pace, power, penetration, and unpredictability.

24:03And I want you to instill all those things in that team every single day. That was my whole navigation system. Pace, power, penetration, and unpredictability. And then the best thing, what I found after that is he picked a marker and he put a line underneath that and he said, if that doesn't work, we gamble. and I absolutely love that and that was a lot of times when we got into the last 10 minutes of the game you know people talk about Fergie time and people say oh well how's this possible but we did a lot of training sessions on that I called it I called it game scenario play which basically one team you have to hold on yeah you're one a lot we as an opposition team we've got 10 minutes on the clock plus extra time probably 14 so what do we what do we change tactically what are we going to do so So we might go with four up front, whatever.

24:58You know, what does it mean for the back line? You know what I mean? You're going to go one-to-one or whatever, or maybe only two center backs. We push the full backs on, the wing is inside. Like all that stuff. And then it's all about having a positive mindset. How many balls can we get in the box? So within 14 minutes or 15 minutes, you would say at least half, seven. And of that seven, at least we need to score one or two goals because we need to score two goals. They're leading 1-0. We need to win this game. so that sort of stuff and that time was running on an actual clock it's only 8 minutes left 6 minutes left still it's 1-0 how many balls can we get in the box?

25:363? 4? and that is all about making sure that the players understood that the time pressure wasn't a situation where they sort of thought we're running out of time no no no we still got 6 minutes how can we maximize it? yeah you know and what we then need is to making sure that they kept the right patience and clear head to provide the quality needed. Because that was the bit that, as you were describing it there, this is fascinating, is that you're teaching them to be able to go after the wind. That famous phrase, Manchester United never get beat, we occasionally run out of time, but we never get beat, is one of the Steve McLaren, I think, coined it.

26:18How do you also teach them, though, the ability to stay calm, to stay focused, to be able not to panic in those moments because that's what, that's effectively what you are coaching. Just to make, just to explain in them as well is that a lot of times you've got more time than you think. But the fact that we had players of the likes of the ilk of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes, they would never panic. You know, I don't know if you remember the goal that Michael Owen scored against Man City. Yeah, yeah, the 4-3 game. That was, that was in, you know, the dying minutes of the game. We were chasing it, we were pressing, we were putting pressure.

26:55That ball got put in the box, it got cleared. It could only fall for two players, whether Paul Scholes or Ryan Giggs. Anybody else would have taken it down and probably have a shot or whatever. Nobody would have done what Giggs did. And he passed it rightly sideways into Michael Owen's feet. He took a touch and he finished it. The only way that Michael Owen could do it. You know what I mean? And it's a matter of, you know, obviously having the players of that kind of quality as well. but also, again, generally to all the players, making sure that, yes, there's a time pressure, but let's make that time work for us.

27:32So it's not a negative thing. Not a negative thing. We still got, you know what I mean? Even with one minute on the clock, one minute is 60 seconds. How long does it take to get a ball in the box? You know, to maybe hit one, you know, on a drop down on the second ball or something. So that was the sort of kind of thing. so when we did that regularly you know when I felt this could really go to the wire I always used to sort of think okay let's do eight minutes of this scenario or let's do six minutes of this scenario and that's the same with penalties go on you know yesterday again I hear with obviously Liverpool got knocked out against Parisian's men and all the pundits go yeah but it's a lottery it's not it's not a lottery you make it a lottery if you don't prepare every good penalty taker now has got a routine no problem you know they have got a little bit of a run up and all that and I've been fortunate to have you know a few penalty shootouts whilst I was managing in Qatar we had the one with obviously Chelsea in Champions League we had the famous one with the Australian national team where we beat Peru and that was all down to preparation all down to preparation where people think ah it's miles away you know penalties you don't have to practice penalties but you need to phase you have to phase that in you know with the players the way that you do it and and to making sure that on the day because the emotions are so high there's so much stress you don't want to run around with a piece of paper Damien knew you want to take a penalty because you just might have missed the big chance you might not feel too great but if you know already before the game if I'm still on the pitch I'll be taking penalty four or three you know what I mean you know see your head you know because you practice it and all this then the key is to remain calm to don't let you know whatever emotion that goes in with the penalty whether you score or not score stay calm and just do your thing and if you're well prepared and the players feel well prepared there is a calmness around them when the moment comes you know to them but then on the counter then those people that say it's a lottery the cynics will go well it's because you can't replicate that pressure in the moment of walking No, no, no, you can't, but the key is that that's why you need to have the players focusing on the execution.

29:52You are still kicking the ball from 11 yards towards goal. And like I said, every player that's got a routine and most of those penalty takers, they take it very confidently. They don't care about the pressure. But let me take you back to the office when Alex Ferguson's pulling out his flip chart and he's telling you, this is what I want you to do. What was the reaction for you as a coach at that moment in time? Great. That's great. And I know exactly sort of, you know, obviously, you know, what was sort of the, what was the threat throughout, you know, the defensive strategies, you know, what do you expect from transition?

30:30You know, what do you expect from possession? And what do you expect from your attacking side of things? And we were confident that we were overall, you know, if there's one thing that's gone out in Man United's play over the last so many years is Man United can't dictate possession anymore. Most of the time, the opposition's got more possession than Manchester United. We were always having more possession than the opposition. Rarely, rarely we would surrender that. Most of the time, not at that, we dictate possession. We know when to, and we had a great balance, I think, between, if you look, for instance, the style that was developed on the club with Liverpool, high dynamic, high energy, direct, great, straight, and compared to Pep's, Man City was a little bit more, let's say, almost knee surgery.

31:14you know like you weave yourself up the pitch and find the extra man we had a bit of both when we had teams that were dropping behind the ball 11 men behind the ball so you know basically you were 21 you know 21 players on one half of the pitch that was all about playing them in playing them out playing them in so you basically suck them in suck them out to try to find a spare man and then to get them into one of your ones and constantly keep changing the ball over the midline that sort of thing when we had space to hit like we did against Arsenal and the famous, you know, semi-finales of the Champions League or the league-up games.

31:46We were like the Red Eros. It was that quick when we regained in our own half because we knew Arsenal wasn't in the right position to defend. So we had to play vertically very quickly, up, back, through, and then run us. So it was a bit of both. So I thought it was great. And like I said, in that respect, he made it very clear to what he expected. He never, ever taught me or never told me in all the six years that I was the first team coach, I want you to do this exercise. I want you to do this. I want you to do that. Never. Ferguson said about you that wherever you've gone, you've helped improve players to be better.

32:22So I'm interested in the experience that you had of stepping up to become a first team coach with some of the names you've mentioned, the likes of Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, you know, experienced players that have been there and seen it. How did you go about winning their confidence to help them keep improving and be better? Although I haven't had that career as a footballer, I was luckily technically a very gifted player. That's why I got that interest in knowing everything about the curve and method and all the skills and all that. And I was very good still in doing it myself. So whilst I was sort of working at the Academy of Manchester United, I started doing some individual work with Jager Forlan, who was at the club at a particular time.

33:07and Jäger was a bit of a player that sort of, I thought, was at Manchester United, you know, at the wrong club at the wrong time. Because if you look at the squad that we had, the players that we had, Ruud Vinistro was scoring one or two goals every game, so, you know, he was not coming out. And Jäger was versatile. He could basically play every position on the front. But we had great players there as well. And Jäger was, potential, a really, really good player, very, very quick, two great feet, left and right, but he didn't really have a trick when he got into 1v1s. So I started chatting with him and started talking to him and I started working with him.

33:45You know, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes. I discussed it with Sir Alec Virgian. I said, yeah, fine, no problem. Just get on with it as long as it doesn't interfere with anything else. And bit by bit, more players sort of came in to some extent that the medical department thought it's actually a great idea instead of us doing the training sessions before the players go back to the group, give him to Rene. before they go into the group. So that gave me the opportunity to basically analyze any player I work with in particular positions. And then I started to look at the technical contributions in the game.

34:19So what kind of one-for-one situation are they getting in? And I always, and talking your question, Damien, about how do you win the confidence in two ways. First of all, I never use the word change. So I was working to Jago or working with Owen Hargreaves or Wes Brown or anybody. I would never say, Wes, we need to change this in your game. Because the first reaction from Wes would be, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what am I doing wrong? And what I used to do with those players is, this is great, that's your main position that you're playing in. You know, we've got these and these sessions ahead of us.

34:53Now, I've looked at your game, I've looked at the sort of kind of ones you're getting into. If we can add this to your game, you're going to be more a complete player, therefore be capable in solving those situations better which is better for the team. So add is more. So all the players then go oh yeah, what is it? Then for me it was a matter of breaking down the different kind of skills. So listen, in this situation you can do this, this, this, this or this. Let's say six particular moves. I would show them and I would say pick the one that you feel most comfortable with. One or two. You need one or two.

35:28And then we start fine-tuning them. And then we start to put them in game realistic positions. So you do remove what's the end product is it a pass is it a cross is it a shot whatever and that is how I build it up but when the players first of all understood the value of ad and secondly that they could see that I could do it that is a massive thing because if I say listen this is how you do a step over and I fall over the ball they're going to go like hmm not sure about that Rene so what was your story about Berbertov then when you you won him over well but Berber when Berber came to the club and it was one of the obviously the first sessions.

36:06The team was away. It was on a Saturday morning. They played and Birba was not involved. So basically we walked out on a pitch and Birba said to me, I'm looking forward to this. I've heard a lot about you, about these 1v1 sessions. And if there's anything I hate, it's 1v1 sessions. Because what can you do? What can you do in 1v1 sessions? He said, well, you'll answer me that after we finished. Normally these sessions lasted for about 45, 50 minutes. Yeah. And I had a sort of build up a routine how to sort of work it. But again, it's all, it was all based on, again, purpose, challenge, quality, intensity.

36:45So I've always worked around four repetitions. So whenever I wanted a burr to do and the challenges you increased with every exercise you do. Okay. You know, so when you do four repetitions, the concentration stays high and the quality stays high. As soon as you go over that, people get tired, quality goes down, you're missing the point. And eventually, you know, I had Berbatov exactly what he wanted to do was basically finishing in all kinds of situations with different services and you know what I mean. But he tremendously enjoyed the session because, like I said, every time there's a kind of different subject, you know.

37:24A lot of times what they were used to in individual training is that they get to the pitch with a strength and conditioning guy or a medical physio to take him. And most of the time, it's a lot of running. You know, it's nothing to do with football. And the football parts of it are not really realistic to what they do in the game. Whereas I think if you wrap it up in a game realistic situation, you can get so, so many benefits from it because the repetition is, you know, it's constant. And again, you wrote a letter to Alex Ferguson at one stage where in that letter, you told him that working with you could improve a player, even at the elite level, by between 1 % and 5%.

38:03Yeah, the letter was referring to the reserve team job that became vacant because Ricky Sobracia went to Bolton. The 1 % and 2 % was about a meeting I had after I joined Manchester United in 2001. I invited Swalik Furson a few times to come down to Little to Road or the Cliff to look at what we were doing. It says, if you can come in October, so we've just started, so you can see the beginning. If you then come again in April, I can show you the progress. And then we had a meeting. He said, I'd like for you to have a meeting with me. At the end of the season, it was in May somewhere, and we had about a three and a half hour meeting.

38:43And basically what I described to him was, okay, what has happened from 86 till now? And what are the successes and what are the things that you create? Where are we now, 2002? two. So what do we need to do in terms of Academy Youth Development to maintain or to develop the players for the future in 10 to 15 years time? That was that job there. But what can we affect with the current squad to maintain that success? And I basically convinced the manager that that individual training that I started doing with first team players, you can still develop first team players 1 to 5%. Some are better equipped than others depending also in the position that you play.

39:25But if you develop every player, every starting player or whatever with 1%, that's 10%. 10 % makes a hell of a difference in winning, you know, more games and therefore probably more trophies. So it's worthwhile investing in that individual format, so to speak. And he embraced that massively. So when that reserve team thing came around, I sort of slipped a ladder under the door by saying, listen, you know, I know this job has come up and, you know, why look outside, you know, Carrington and Old Trafford if maybe the solution is indoors. And really, basically, the reason why I'm saying it is that this will give me an opportunity to basically show you how you can implement all that technical development in a team setting.

40:10Yeah. And that was possibly famous. So therefore, now I started working with the reserve team with players like Jarrod Piquet, Johnny Evans, you know, Giuseppe Rossi, Fraser Campbell, Evans Blake, all of them. And a lot of part of my training sessions, that technical part was included all the time. The key for me now was that getting in that pace, power, penetration, unpredictability. Get it into the way that we played. And that was great. And then the manager could see firsthand, you know, how that was working. So therefore, it was for him not really a big decision when it came around to push me into the first team.

40:48Plus, I've already worked with most of the players individually. So if I was talking about skill development, not one player would go like, what are you talking about? I was just saying, right, let's glue everything together now. You're talking marginal gains long before it was ever coined as a phrase. What do you think is the 1 % that most players could learn from? What was the area that you think you had the biggest impact? I think that ability for them to give them the tools and the equipment to dominate the 1v1 so don't don't get stuck in only one solution by passing it to somebody else because if there's no passing option on and you put me under pressure what do I do?

41:28I can just kick it away and probably lose the ball or can I with a little bit of disguise and a little bit of turn you know get away from you and then create a passing option that is I think the biggest thing and therefore you know obviously the confidence increases because they know you know it doesn't matter what comes I know what I'm going to do. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That type of thing. And a lot of times, in certain areas of the pitch, you want them to get into a 1v1 because you know how you're going to beat them, on the inside, the outside, whatever. That is, I felt, what was the biggest gain that the players got from it.

42:06Which is what you're bringing to it. I would like to move, if you don't mind, into how players have to be able to respond to it. And I want to talk in particularly about your relationship with Cristiano Ronaldo because you were central to his early development of his success. Would you tell us what was it you saw in him that gave you a clue as to the greatness he was going to eventually achieve? I wouldn't say central. I've obviously played my part, but I think Sir Alex Ferguson was central and obviously all the other ones that got involved with Cristiano played an important part. But, you know, Christiane was also so aware of the fact that, you know, how important strength and conditioning the side of the game was.

42:50So, Mike Klack and Tony Straddick later did fantastic jobs with him. The mental side of the game, you know, when you're young, you're naive, you're inexperienced and all this. I'm 100 % sure that the manager and Mick Fielder and Carlos Kiroz had loads of conversations. I got connected with Christiane in that respect because I was doing these individual sessions. And at one particular point when I was doing stuff with Diego, or he came across straight away and said, can I join in? Yeah, no problem. Join in. What was your reaction to that of somebody actively seeking you out and asking for you to help them?

43:21Embrace. Yeah. 100%. First and foremost, embrace. Was that rare? No, no, no, no. Because I always felt that at Manchester United and especially when I got, you know, became first team coach, we always encouraged players doing stuff in their own time. Like we did, everybody did extra things after training finished. you know a lot of times now that's been cut short because of whatever strength and conditioning rules and medical you know this and that the other but we always give the sort of freedom whether it was Rio and Viddy practicing you know switching of play or long passing they said we did finishing every day every single day you know and and and within that finishing there was again always a purpose always a challenge you know and very game realistic thing so we always did that so when people when they do extra things, great.

44:10So this was obviously the tactical side of the game where Cristiano came in. But the biggest thing, the biggest time that I spent with Cristiano was when he got suspended for a number of games in the early parts of the season. I can't remember. I think it was the 2007-8 season. Sent off against Portsmouth, wasn't it? Yeah. And suspended. Yeah, that particular season. So the team was still playing, let's say, at the beginning of the season, was still Saturday, Sunday, Sunday, Saturday. So it was a lot of times. And when the team was playing away, they would go away. So we always had two or three days to then work sometimes with other players that stayed behind.

44:46But in this case, there was quite a few number of sessions that basically I did sort of with him on a one-to-one. And it gave me an opportunity to get to know him better, but also to get, you know, like I said, again, it's all about, you know, maximizing those one-to-one moments on and off the pitch. So I first wanted to bring him from an awareness point to an understanding point, you know, in terms of, do you know actually where you are? You know what I mean? Conversations like, and I basically told him or said to him, I says, at one point, I think that I know exactly what you want. And he looked at me like, how can you know?

45:27I mean, we never had a guy. He says, yeah, I know. And he said, what is it? I said, you want to be the best player in the world. not once not twice but many many times to come he says am I wrong he says no you're right he says right he says my question to you is will you be the best player in the world tomorrow no probably not next week no next month no end of the season probably not okay so you know where you are you know where you want to go so now what we need what do we need to do to bring you closer to what you want to achieve. Now, one of the aspects is that you need to understand and be aware of what kind of player you are, your position that you play, but more than anything, you need to understand how to utilize your strengths, you know, for the team and for yourself.

46:16And one of the things is scoring goals. I said, how many goals did you score last season? He said, 23. I said, okay. But I assume you want to get better, don't you? He said, yeah. So what is your target for this season? Because if you're the same, you don't really improve. He thought about it. He says, 30? And I went, okay. And he looked like, it's like you don't agree. He says, well, he said, what do you think? I said, I think, 40? He said, 40. It's nearly double. I said, yes. He says, but we haven't worked on the certain aspects of the game that I think will get you closer to 40 than 30. then I took him inside and I showed him a video of United's top strikers including York, Cole, Sheringham, Solskjaer and Estroy three minute video goals after goal bang, bang, bang, bang, bang I said what did you see?

47:11oh a lot of goals beautiful goals a lot of goals I said yeah but what did you see? yeah goals I said no no no you're going to watch it again and then tell me what you see and we looked at it again and then I said, what did you see? And I said, I know what you mean. It says, most goals are scored from in the box. Most goals are scored one and two touch. And there's a variety of goals. Tappings, shots, headers and all that. It says, correct. These are exactly the three things you're going to work on on the pitch. And that will improve you. It says, what you are at the moment, you are somebody that can score goals, but you're not a goal scorer.

47:51The problem is that you want to score the winning goal all the time, and the most beautiful goal. What you need to go, you need to become a goal scorer. Score as many goals as you can, and those two goals will be in it anyway. That's what we're going to work on. So outside on the pitch, I then divided the goal, the 18-yard box with the goals in zones. So there's two lines from the goal post all the way to the 18-yard. That was zone number one. And I said, this is your most important goal scoring area. Because the goalkeeper will be in the middle of the goal, and you can score bottom left, bottom right, top right, top left.

48:27You know what I mean? And then I drew a line from the post to the corners of the box on each side. So you get a right zone and a left zone. This is actually the zones where most goals are scored from because the defenders will try to protect zone one. Always remember the goal will never move. The goalkeeper does. So if you're in zone two on the left-hand side, you need to adapt your finishing way how you're going to finish. Because the goalkeeper will probably come across. so it might be a bended shot or whatever it is. All depending on where's the ball coming from, do you can finish one touch, two touches and all that.

49:01So subconsciously, I created constant scenarios in those different zones where he had to finish from. And over time, so like I said, we were working in a particular time, you know, we had so many sessions. And then we reviewed and then we looked at it and reviewed and all that. And it says, the most important thing for you is your attitude towards it. it says you have to imagine that you're carrying an imaginary rucksack on your back so every goal you score every time you hit the net even if it's a ball after training you just kick it in a goal there's a click it clicks it clicks and that clicker never stops it just keeps going and then that goal scoring becomes such a normal thing for you you know and it's all about again you know what I mean that thing and that is I think the biggest transition he's made which he started at Manchester United with us because he was so important, but he carried it on straight after that when he went to Real Madrid.

49:58Juventus, even now, you know, he's 39-40 and he's still living off goals. So it's chasing a thousand goals, I believe. Is it? I think so, yeah. It's 900-something. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Minmobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and the coverage on the nation's largest 5G network.

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52:15So what was the moment though when you were working with him when you thought this guy's got it? Very early because like I said when we had this conversation about what he wanted to achieve his determination and his conviction and the way that he looked and the way he spoke there was nothing I basically said to him he says Cristiano you need to just embrace everything and everybody that can get you there never stop learning never stop learning never stop seeking you know and advice from other people never use other people that can help you because that will accelerate your journey you get there much quicker but was there a goal of a game that is a perfect encapsulation of those hours that you and him spent on the training ground together yeah I mean there was one that springs to my mind straight away which was when he was running towards goal a lot of time let's say, you know, on the zone two area, which is the goal is sort of on, you know, in the middle and the zone two is on the left-hand side of the pitch.

53:20I always said to him, if you enter that zone and you have to, let's say, you beat the guy, let's say the defender come and you beat him on the outside, you enter in zone three, close to the byline, which makes it more difficult to score a goal. But if you can chop the ball with the opposite leg behind your kicking leg, your inside, you then come closer to zone one, which he did against, I think it was in a Champions League game against Denama Moscow, and he just passed it in in the bottom corner. But yeah, there's so many other little, you know, little... What I think, the biggest thing, this transition was that he started to value simple goals.

53:58You know, like I said, where he could only enjoy himself, what a great shot, or what a great goal, you understand? But then, after that, he started to enjoy, you know, little tap-ins. You know what I mean? it didn't matter what kind of goal it was as long as the ball went in. Tell us about Federer moments. Yeah, that's an interesting time. I'm a keen tennis fan, you know, and always have been, and Federer is absolutely my favourite. I've always been a big advocate in terms of how people perform, also in daily life, but especially in sports, because the mind is such a strong tool, You know, your mind is your strongest ally or your biggest enemy.

54:44So one of the lines that I've read always stuck with me. You know, where the mind goes, the rest will follow. Or where the mind goes, energy flows. You know, that type of thing. So I read this article about Federer because Federer, when he was young, as a young kid, he couldn't handle emotions, got angry very quickly. He got suspended and all this and that. So at some point, he got to grips with that, with his coaches and all that. And if you don't, the Federer at his best, he was just calm. You know what I mean? Always calm. And I used it with the reserve team at one point where I had five clips of Federer in games on five different tournaments.

55:31And I asked the players, you need to tell me which tournament it is, what point it is, what game it is and what's set and they started all laughing the only thing you could figure out was this you know what tournament so you could say oh it's Roland-Garros or this is Wimbledon the other three they couldn't and basically what I wanted to show with them was is that that Federer was always focused on the execution and the performance rather than whatever what's around them what happened before or what was going to happen so United was in a season where they came back from Barcelona they came back from Barcelona and they Ronaldo missed the penalty, they drew 0-0.

56:07In the semi-final of the Champions League. Exactly. So they went straight to Portsmouth in the league and they lost. So when they came back to Carindor, because I didn't travel with the team at the time, I stayed behind and worked with players. So I still remember all coming in and the players and they're all a little bit like disappointed, deluded, and the manager comes up to me and you know, and he said, you know, I should have won in Barcelona, Portsmouth. So they had the game against West Ham Barcelona return and then Wigan in front of them and I said to the manager he said you like tennis he said yeah I love tennis he said who's your favourite player I said Federer he says great I've got a great story for you because I love Federer and he says Federer was playing in an ATP tournament and he's won the first set comfortably no problem won the second one comfortably lost the third lost the fourth set 7-6 in the tie break he's now playing the fifth set it's 5-4 to Federer it is 40-30 to Federer this is the Federer moment and this is where you are with Man United he says what do you mean he says everything that got Federer to that point all those sets he played whether it was two sets or three or four doesn't matter if he wins that point he wins the game he wins the set he wins the match and he wins the tournament that's the Federer moment so you need to be able to reset so where you are now is with Man United you drew 0-0 against Barcelona you lost the penalty you lost against Portsmouth but look at your position if you beat West Ham on Sunday yeah next week against Wigan you win you win the league if you beat Barcelona on Wednesday you go to the Champions League final so you are just on a in a federal moment to reset whatever happens before you're still in the same position yeah you just need to push the reset button and make sure that the players look ahead rather than you know what's behind that's where the mind goes the rest will follow so you don't think when he takes the serve Ferguson or Federer doesn't think well I've just lost you know you know that last point you know on 40-15 no he just thinks if I serve this well or hit an ace or whatever it is I've got it in the back if we win against West Ham great position for us winging next week set us nicely up against Barcelona if we win that and the rest will take care of itself.

58:34And that was the whole Federalist story. And that's how he used with the reserves because we were in a position to win the treble that year. And what did Ferguson do with that story when he told him? He used it. Yeah, he used it. He used it in some mistake. I don't know exactly. I wasn't in that meeting but I remember Ole Gunnar Solskjaer came to me afterwards a few days later on training. He says, because I told him I spoke to him the same thing. And he said, yeah, he says the man has used it to some extent. I don't know in what depth but yeah but that was the bottom line you know sometimes you just need to especially if you are an individualist like Federer on the pitch you can reset yourself yeah yeah as a manager you need to reset the button for everybody else yeah because all the minds need to be in the same in the same way you can't have half the team thinking oh if we lose to West Ham you know no no no everybody needs to go like alright let's do this job let's beat West Ham take it game by game you know half by half and then obviously we go to the next game Well, that's a testament to Ferguson as well of being coachable and being open to new ideas So Alex Ferguson was, people talk about obviously, you know, the question that I get asked, you know, so many times why was Ferguson so good but one of the things was his man management skills were second to none his communication qualities was excellent but part of that quality is communication, is listening he was such a good listener really good listener and he would extract what he thought was valuable and he would use it from anybody.

1:00:06So describe what that's like then to be really listened to by him. I mean a lot of times when we were watching a game we were sitting on the bench together the game revolves and I knew what we've done in training and we were watching a game whether good and bad and everything. I knew over time that always about 15, 10 minutes before half time he would always sort of throw a question at me, you know, you know, what do you think or is there anything we need to change or adapt or whatever and I would, I would always, you know, look back to obviously what we did in training, are we doing what we set out to do, if not, you know, what's the problem, whatever.

1:00:44So we had these sort of really short, sharp, two minute discussions where I sort of aired my views and he would just listen and whatever he thought was valuable to take in a dressing room, he would, You know, use it in the dressing room. Like I said, he was such a... His experience shone through so many occasions in that. You know, like... You know, I remember the game against Tottenham at home. And I thought that was absolutely a masterstroke. And we weren't playing well. That was Modric was still playing for Tottenham. They had a really good game against us. I think they were 2-0 up at half-time.

1:01:27and we weren't playing badly at all. We just conceded. You know, they took the chance to concede it and that's also what I said to the managers. He says, it's not that we're playing bad. It's not like that the work rate is on the par. It's just that, yes, we can have a look at it, you know, with a magnifying glass, should he have done better in that position? But I think if we maybe been able to, Tottenham will try to hold on to that too. They won't go for a third. So we, I assume we're going to really push them back in our own half. It's just, but we really need to unsettle them. So we need to give them something else to throw about.

1:02:02So we go in the dressing room and he didn't make much of those two goals behind. He didn't go into it two nil down or none. See, so let me just jump in there because the public perception is that, you know, like the hairdryer is going in there, he's kicking off. That's not what happened. I mean, in the six years that I've been in Manchester United with him and in the rest of the room I might maybe once or twice that I felt he raised his voice in another way than he normally would but in that case he didn't he sort of basically settled everybody down and said calm down I think we're playing great 2-0 down boss yeah but of course we can talk about the goals I don't want to talk about that he says listen we're going to throw something at them they can't deal with we made a few changes we brought Carlos Tevez on hunting them down and all this and that I think we made another one I can't remember but the biggest thing was this he said listen I know we're going to score but when we score one we're going to score three now just think about that mentally what it does to the players and on the pitch so when they scored one goal they didn't settle down oh no no we have to score another two that was just a masterstroke for me and we ended up winning that game 5-2 5-2 there was no there was no nobody that went on that pitch worried about we were 2-0 down we're going to score three goals and probably more but we're going to score three goals just brilliant brilliant and can you recall any other incidents where you thought that's what made him one of the all-time greats.

1:03:36Yeah, the other one that springs to mind, West Ham away.

1:03:41He was upstairs in the first half for whatever reason, I don't know, but he was upstairs. And again, it didn't go that well and we didn't exploit really what was sort of happening on the left-hand side and he felt that Patrice didn't particularly have a good game so he took him off at half-time. And they did in particular used that right inside. It had no right winger. So he put Ryan Giggs there. Nani in the left and Ryan Giggs is left back. And he said, Giggs, I'm going to play you there. You're not going to be left back. You're going to be left wing. I stick Nani. Nani will come inside and you'll be left wing or if Nani is right, you can penetrate on the inside.

1:04:23But nobody will, you know, cause you any problems. No problem whatsoever. And I thought at the time, I thought, oh, that's, that's going to be a bit, that's going to be interesting to watch, you know what I mean? This is his gamble instruction. Yeah, well, sort of, but it was still a full half to play. And we, again, I think we were 1-0 down. And again, it turned out to be a master struggle because Giggs, you know, scored himself. He created two assists and comfortably walked away 3-4-1 winners. But again, you know, just the experience and the tactical, you know, cleverness to say, now, this is what we need.

1:05:00Giggs, you can do the whole left wing, no problem. gives Narnie the freedom to come inside and cause all sorts of problems for the right back because the right back doesn't know where to follow you know to stay you know what I mean and if he goes with you Giggs Narnie is free so it worked out a treat That's fantastic so when we think about Ferguson though there's very much a before and after in terms of Manchester United the days before it when you were there but this transition period that we spoke about at the start has been hugely painful for anyone associated with the club and yet you saw it coming your job was to anticipate what could happen in a match and you recount that you sat down with David Gill the chief exec and anticipated some of what yeah well again it was just out of nothing really when we were sitting and having a chat and it was in pre-season we were in in Malaysia in the in the Mandarin Oriental Hotel I just sat there having a cappuccino and David walked in he probably had a morning stroll he said can I join you yeah no problem so he thought that's chatting away and yeah, we all know that Sir Alex Ferguson was getting on a bit, you know, with his age.

1:06:08We never knew what the future held and I said to David, I said, your biggest challenge is to manage Man United beyond the departure of Sir Alex Ferguson. You know, you look at where the clubbers are, we're very successful, the brand is growing and a lot of things have changed and taken place. It's not a copy and paste scenario, if you ask me. You know, there's only two ways basically to do it. It's whether you have obviously a good and honest conversation with him to say, listen, what is your plans? What are you thinking? One year, two year, three year? You know, at least you can start building around it.

1:06:40And then you have to basically think and say, okay, how do you see that transition? You know, I think that's the question I would ask Sir Alex. How do you see it? Because in my ways, there's only two tracks to do it. It's whether you're making part of the transition. So basically, you work from within, you know, because at the end of the day, what's Sir Alex Ferguson? build, you know, like I said, it rolls around the culture, you know, the identity on and off the pitch. And the most important part of that culture is stability and continuity. And stability has to do with the people that you bring in and you work with.

1:07:13And if you look at the staff that Alex Ferguson grew over the years, obviously there were so many that came in because I remember him saying when he came at Man United, he had eight staff and now he had more than Marks and Spencers. You know, but that stability, so people were with him for a long time, you know, already. that creates stability and the continuity has to do with the vision that you hold to sort of make sure that you maintain your success but how do you build on it you know how are you going to make sure that you're going to be successful in five years time so making part of that transition you know and so that means that stability is still there continuity is still there and try to find the right person that fits in that mould and the other way is is that he does leave the club with no involvement in that transition rather than maybe a recommendation.

1:08:04And then secondly, other people will come in. And then you have to look at, is this person that is going to come in and follow in the footsteps to Alex's version? Has he got, one, the personality and the charisma to follow in such a position? Has he got the pedigree to manage a club with the size of Manchester United? Has he got the experience to manage a club with the size of Manchester United in all the different tournaments? So those are the questions you need to ask. plus the fact that if somebody else will come in, he will probably bring in his own people, which will affect the stability.

1:08:35And he'll probably have different ideas to be successful, which affects the continuity. So what did David Gill say when you present these two options to him, though? Yeah, well, he sort of agreed and said, yeah, it's going to be an interesting and challenging time for all of us. I didn't have a magic ball to look into because obviously David made the decision to leave the club before. you know Sir Alex made his decision clear so he never really had any involvement within that transition so you know but that for me was nothing else than sort of you know common sense you know you look you know if any big company who's very very successful and you look at the history to you know where they are and they say okay we need to have to make some big big changes here how are we going to do it you know what I mean I'm sure they will think about those those aspects.

1:09:29But again, you look at it now, and I know hindsight is always perfect, but it couldn't have been done more clumsily, more badly the way that this transition period has taken place since you, Mike Phelan, and Alex Ferguson all left on that day in 2013. What were your emotions like when you were seeing this second option of somebody new coming in and deciding to bingo their new staff? Obviously, not too much, to be fairly honest, because I now remember we got called in by the manager on a Wednesday, I think it was, because on a Tuesday night, when I went to bed, my phone suddenly started beeping, and normally I never had a look, but for whatever reason I did.

1:10:16And somebody texted me, is it true? And I thought, it's true. And I texted what? And then SA, Sir Alex. I thought, what's that? And then my neighbor, beep, yeah. So Alex leaving May United, I thought, what's going on here? Yeah. So I give myself a bit of time just to thought, well, let's have a look to see, because if there's anything, there will be something in the mainstream. And I opened my laptop and, you know what I mean? So, well, there must be some truth in it. When there's smoke, there's fire. So the next day when it came to Carrington, we got invited into Sir Alex's office with Mick Feely and Eric Steele.

1:10:51And basically, you know, he apologized for the fact that it has, you know, leaked somewhere and whatever it was. And he said, you know, he explained the reasons why, which obviously were very honest and valid, no problem at all. And, you know, he basically said, you know, obviously the club has decided to appoint David Moyes as my successor. And, you know, other than that, that was it, you know. you know everybody knows how important you know you guys have been and the staff and everything and it was in April so we still had games to play and prepare for and basically I walked out of the office and went on to do my normal things and I just thought I'll deal with it when you know if and when which was all the way at the end coming you know the end of the season in May and then obviously things became a bit clearer and you know the picture that was painted you know it looked a little bit different than we imagined and And, you know, obviously David came in and the rest is history, basically.

1:11:52But you spoke about two characteristics of the club and one of them was this idea of belonging. How did it feel that this club that you'd sort of assimilated yourself to, where you'd felt this family atmosphere of being a part of the furniture, no longer wanted you around? Yeah, there's the famous line there from Barcelona, un masso un club, much more than a club. but it's exactly what I felt with Manchester United. It was part of my life, my DNA. I remember a friend of mine saying, listen, Rene, he said, it'll take you years. It'll take you years for you to get that out of your system. And he was right.

1:12:32He was right. And it's probably still not entirely out of my system and I think it will never will be because it was such a unique period of my life, you know, as a person. but also as a coach, you know. When you're there, when you're in it, and you're coaching those, that's caught those elite players, and you look at them week in, week out, producing what they've produced, so much enjoyment, you know, and so much success, you know. But you are living 100 miles an hour, you know. Your hard disk is spinning 24-7, just to make sure, you know, you get it right every time and et cetera, et cetera.

1:13:15But when it's gone, it's gone. And then, you know, as time subsides and years go by, you more and more start to realise what a unique time it was. Sure. And when you look back now, when your head hits a pillow at night and you sometimes reflect on your legacy as a coach, is there a moment that comes to mind that you think symbolises just how unique and how special it was? The biggest moment that typifies it was and obviously Robert Van Persie came to the club and that was a story in itself in that respect because I rated Robin highly and through my sources I knew that he was keen in coming and eventually we managed to bring him in and Robin was such a great player, respected player in the Premier League by other Man United players as well and he gave us that extra, you know, in that 12-13 season.

1:14:14And I knew that he was so motivated to, you know, to win his first title, but it would be Man United's 20th. And I remember Sir Alex Ferguson asking Robin, Robin, we've got only two shirts available with two numbers. It's 21 and 20. And I happened to stand next to him and I said, well, it's only going to be 20, is it? Because that's the title we're going to win and you carry it on your back for the whole of the season. but when everything came together was in that game against Aston Villa where we won the league because on a Thursday we did a training session and I grabbed a few players to highlight one particular pattern of play which was all about you know when Aston Villa tended to play with a bit of a high line and Hon Vla was Dutch was one of the centre-backs and Robben knew him really well and I knew what Robben's kind of movements were And again, talking about the midline, on the other side, diagonal runs over the top on the shoulder of the blind side of the centre-back.

1:15:15So I had this session with Rafael and Fabio De Silva. I just put them on the left and right back. I had Scolzi and Rooney in midfield. They were picking up the ball. And then eventually when they changed, two strikers with Chicharito and Robin, and they just had to spin over. So when the ball is on the right-hand side, ball over the top. Now, if you look at that clip where Rooney gets it, takes a touch Robin makes the run ball over the top and he hits it on the volley I mean I could have written it down to Robin and says Robin if you want to win the league this is what's going to happen you know what I mean like the ideal scenario which will never ever happen but it did happen then and when I sat there and I still see the ball going and I thought to myself nah nah and he hits it perfectly on the volley banging it back in the net win the league everything fell into place I think that is basically that sums up everything and everything that I felt with United at the time What a goal and what an epitaph for you to take into your own coaching to symbolise the impact that you have That's part of that's what coaching is all about Damien coaching for me is all about you know again informing facilitating preparing the players for you know that they recognise scenarios that's going to happen in the game I said to Cristiano as well when you start filling up your rucksack any goal you're going to score in the future is already in your rucksack you've already scored it on the training pitch that means that when the moment somebody is about to cross the ball you already know what's going to happen because you know what run to make you know what kind of finish to do so everything is speed up and that means that whilst you come to the point of execution because that's the most important thing you are relaxed because you know what you're going to do because you've done it before and that is what in my opinion coaching is about making sure that the players and the team and everybody in their position that they know that this is the format that we we're going to win the game Now as somebody that's been there then Rene my last question for you is that you write around there was an enormous winning mentality at the club and you determined there are 10 elements to success when we think of Manchester United today can I just run through the 10 elements and you tell me very quickly whether we feel we have them at Manchester United.

1:17:39Yeah, the moment. Yeah, go on. Good ownership. Well, that's debatable. Absolutely. Because I think that is one of the problems that have basically been haunted Manchester United after the departure of Sir Alex Ferguson. Not before, because basically Sir Alex was very, very clear on what he wanted and how success looked like for him. but after that I think there's been so many developments that haven't been necessarily been good for Manchester United and we still have to see how the future will look Organisation and management so you define this as the manager, the head coach and his support staff Yeah I mean obviously you need good people in good positions in every position at the club you know everything that has to do with from the technical side of view May United many many years have worked without a director of football or a technical director or whatever now they've got people in place, but they need to be good people and they need to be aligned.

1:18:36You know, you need to have a really good, a good strong manager, you know, that has got the right personality, charisma, pedigree and everything that goes with it to manage the size. And do you think Cameron has that? He can't have that because he's too young to some extent. I'm not saying that he will and can grow towards that because at the end of the day, all the managers start young, but over time they create their own kind of strong, what do you call it, identity, like Klopp did with Liverpool, like Pep did with Man City. And maybe, you know, what Amarim can do with Manchester United, has he got the ingredients at this moment in time, which is probably your next question.

1:19:17No, he hasn't. Which brings us on to the quality players. Yeah, I don't think at this moment in time Man United has got a squad that will compete for Premier League and Champions League, which I think they should. I mean, when I was working with Sir Alex, we had a very simple format and thing. I always used to say to the manager, listen, look at our squad. Three goalkeepers, three in every position. And you look at them and say, all right, the top 11 and you have the top 18 because like for like, yeah? If your nearest competitors in the Premier League would want to have four or five players of your team, you've got a good team.

1:19:58if your Champions League competitors would nick two or three players you got a good team that's the question now so when you look at the squad now how many of that squad and which ones would have got into the squads that you were coaching it would be difficult I think for anybody to go in I think the nearest one would probably be Bruno Bruno Fernandes because he's got Paul-esque Scolge-esque qualities in terms of, you know, the killer passes and, you know, resisting the goals. But other than that, I find it hard to see that anybody else could replace any of that squad that we had that was so successful in that particular period.

1:20:41Strategies and tactics. Well, you need to always make sure that you've got a certain, like I said, like I described before, so Alex Furs was very clear on how he wanted to play from a defensive point of view. So that's your identity, you know what I mean? on the pitch and the basic thing like that what really typified Man United was those four things pace, power, penetration unpredictability that's you know what I mean because so Alex Furson also felt winning is the most important thing yeah 1-0 are the most important wins 1-0 games but obviously he wanted to win more games with more goals because he felt he had an obligation to entertain and you can do that if you start scoring two and three and four goals you know what I mean so but that has all to do with making sure you've got the right packs in the right holes play the players to your strength always with the outlook to dominate and you know play in attacking an attractive kind of football So can we go through some quickfire questions?

1:21:39Absolutely

1:21:43If you were going to pick a Manchester United five-a-side team from the players you coached you've got a goalkeeper two defenders two midfielders and a forward give me your team I would still put Van der Sar in net. He's obviously Birkenhügel, but he was very good with his feet. He was very good with his feet. That's one, yeah? Yeah. I put Rio as a defender. I put Scolzi as three. And I would put Cristiano for sure because he will score your goals left, right and centre. and I'll put Rooney in there. So, Fannassa, Rio, Scolzi, Rooney, and Cristiano. That would be my five, because Rooney can drop a bit in midfield to help Scolzi out.

1:22:40You know, Rio can cover at the back. Yeah, that would be a nice five-a-side. I'm fairly confident that's winning. So, what would you say are your three non-negotiable behaviours that you and people around you have to buy into? I think I've got strong values and principles and tend to adhere to that. You know, I think respect. Within that respect, you know, in terms of, you know, who you're dealing with, you know, around you and all those things. And that in relation to, like I say, you know, keep high standards in terms of values and principles. Stick to them, you know. So what's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness?

1:23:26You know, as a person or as a coach, as a person I'm always positive in terms of my approach to things, open-minded. Like I said, I don't see problems most of the time. I just see challenges and think in solutions. Always think what's next around the corner. As a coach, I felt my biggest strength was, you know, pulling those training sessions together player development making them better add something to them you know as well as the tactical I think the tactical insights of the game you know to see things and to say to do something outside you know the sort of traditional thing stick to what you know but like I said that's why I like the thing that what about Ferguson like when he put Giggs he has a left back position oh we put Jishun Park on pillow.

1:24:23You know, something different. You know what I mean? And your greatest weakness? I think sometimes aiming for perfection all the time. Expecting perfection all the time. Maybe a bit impatient. What's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received and why? Possibly be clear in what you want. In what you want to, you know, your ambition. What is your bigger goal? If you can define that, then you've got a clear purpose. The next thing is then to find strategies to achieve it, which is then put purpose to what you're doing and direction. So if you've got a higher goal, like I said myself, I wanted to obviously become a faster coach, make my money in football.

1:25:08Where I was, I said, okay, so what do we need to do next? What are my next targets? You know, gain knowledge, gain experience, you know, blah, blah, blah, etc. and then you work towards. So when you've got a higher goal, clear purpose, and you know, you understand your strategies, you get directions towards it. And finally, what's your one golden rule for living a high-performance life? Live, love, learn, and legacy. Live the life to your full, you know, love, obviously, your family, the people around you, love the work that you do, love, there's so many things in life to love. Keep learning every day because when you learn, you grow.

1:25:51And when you have an opportunity to leave a legacy, do so because then other generations will take the benefits from it. What a privilege it's been. Thanks, René. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with René Mullenstein. If you loved that chat about football, Eddie Howe, Thomas Frank, Gareth Southgate, Maurizio Pochettino and so many more people have been on this show. Don't forget, as well as these kinds of conversations, we also have the High Performance app, which exists to get you closer to high performance. Right now, on there, you can find exclusive masterclass content as Jess Ennis-Hill helps you perform under pressure and physiologist Ollie Patrick on how to have more energy.

1:26:30Right, stay exactly where you are, because over the next few weeks, High Performance is proudly sponsored by the UK Government Department for Business and Trade.

1:26:42As you may have heard over the last few weeks, Our podcast is in partnership with the UK Government's Department for Business and Trade and their brilliant free training program, the UK Export Academy. And I'm about to speak to James and Saul about their business, The Good Side. And really what I'm after here is an insight into what life is like for them as two husbands that run a business together. And also what does their business look like today? Are they global? Are they going to go global? and what kind of a role could the UK Export Academy play in their story. So hello, James and Saul. How are you both?

1:27:18Very good, thanks. So how does it work when you're married and you run a business together? That seems sort of super close on every level. Yeah, it is definitely a bit of a journey. And there has been times where it hasn't been that easy. But we made it work really well, actually, haven't we? We are quite different people with very different strengths, doing quite different things. So the business really brings together different skill sets. You know, we come from different worlds professionally. So I think if we were doing the same thing together day in and day out, it would probably be much more tricky.

1:27:48But I think we actually kind of are a sum of our parts in a way. Now, I've got a line here that sums up your business, okay, the good side. It says, an insight and strategy studio that helps organisations understand how to show up and respond to changes in culture. So in layman's terms, what does the good side do? We combine some fresh research that we conduct with strategic guidance and filmmaking to really help organizations understand what's going on in culture in various parts of the world new markets new audiences new problems and we sort of unpack those problems and provide guidance on on change and how to act um in these kind of changing times you know we're living in times of increasing complexity where the rates of change uh of culture and and society are kind of rapid and i think often what we're doing is helping people stay up with those change stay on top of those changes and understand how to kind of react to them and how to sort of show up in those spaces.

1:28:44Can we talk about global expansion? Yeah. Where are you guys on that journey? Some of our longest standing relationships are with big US tech and media clients. And really, that's a huge kind of core part of our business. And we work with those clients all over the world. So we've kind of been international from the outset. And I think that it's something that we really see as being kind of integral to our growth is really kind of expanding. I think we're at the point in time where that next generation of clients we see as coming almost entirely from overseas. So it's like, it's just, you know, it's sort of integral to who we are.

1:29:20Why is international trade such an exciting thing? It's just the world is a fascinating place. There are always new cultures, new problems, new opportunities to look at. And, you know, for us, it's all about just kind of remaining fresh and really kind of exploring all these different avenues. Yeah, and we've both had really exciting careers before, even the good side, haven't we, of travelling a lot. So we just love being with people from all over the world. What is the biggest challenge when trading abroad? The number one challenge in, I think, probably all businesses is developing new relationships, those new leads.

1:29:52It's just such a lot of work and it's so hard. You know, the world is super competitive. So I think relationships and cultivating those relationships is kind of number one. What do you see as your next big business challenge? And that can be an exciting challenge as well, not just a daunting one. I think we are currently like the world's best kept secret in strategic insight. And I think for us, the challenge is profile and kind of becoming known for what we do. Great. And I suppose the final question would be for someone who's heard you talk about the exciting business that you run and the thrill you get from the fact that you're global and you operate on an international level.

1:30:27What advice would you give to them if they're thinking of taking the leap? Just do it. The one thing that I've learned, I think we've both learned, is that it is going to be quite difficult, but you're going to feel so good about yourself when you achieve it. And it's going to be a lot of effort. What I've found out in the last few years, especially, is that you can have ideas and make them happen. Even if maybe you've not been told that all your life, you definitely can. I'm assuming that because you were going international right at the start of your journey, you haven't had to use the UK Export Academy, right?

1:31:00No, we haven't. And we've been so lucky in terms of we've developed some really kind of key relationships that have paid huge dividends for us. But I think now we're in this point where we've really kind of maximized that network to an extent and we're really looking for the next phase, which is why we're really interested in connecting with the Export Academy to think about what does that next chapter look like? See, I think that's a really good point because I think a lot of people will think that the UK Export Academy is there for everyone at the beginning of their journey, right? But there's no reason just because you have done everything that you can as a duo and as a business internationally, it doesn't mean that you just stop.

1:31:36It means that you look somewhere else for the information, right? And I think that knowing what you don't know is so important. And there will be so many people with so much knowledge at the UK Export Academy that you can learn from, but also that you can then help mentor other people, you know? starting a business and growing a business the thing we've learned is when to realize that you there's a ceiling to your skill set and when you need to bring somebody in to help you and that's okay in fact that's really great because what it means is that it's going to free up your time to do the things that you really love and are really good at listen thank you both so much for taking the time to chat to me i really enjoyed that no problem thank you very much and if you the listener are keen to get a head start then please do check out the free training and resources available at the UK Export Academy by heading to great.gov.uk slash global or just click the link in the description to this podcast.

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