Richard Branson: Why I’m Not Interested in Money (E258)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. positive and everything. I'm not really interested in making money. I'm interested in creating things. And that's always been my reason for being. That is Sir Richard Branson. And this is High Performance. I'm Jake Humphrey. And welcome to the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet. Today, we welcome one of my heroes. Sir Richard has spent almost 60 years in business, a serial entrepreneur. He's a master of creating culture, discovering talent, facing challenges and keeping family central to his life. You're about to hear us discuss his new book, Losing and Finding My Virginity, the full story.

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3:05Well Richard, welcome to the show, welcome to our lovely home here at Fora overlooking London. Thank you very much for having us. I'd like to start by asking you, what do you believe high performance to be? Doing one's best. I mean I think I can't expect anything more than that from people. Some people are capable of doing more than others. But as long as I think you've done your best, you've performed as best you can. So to me, that's what high performance is. I'd love to play a few clips from your new audio book, if that's okay. I just want to talk about some of the key moments in your life from those.

3:42So I want to start with one of my favorite stories from the book. Let's have a listen to this. When we landed, I was standing beside the plane, trying to think of how to overcome this problem, when a press photographer came up to me, smiling broadly. I'm sorry I apologised. I'm not up to it right now. I'm sorry too, he said. I saw the flame smoke pouring out of your engine. I actually got a great shot of it. He looked at my dumbstruck face and then said, Don't worry, Richard. I'm from the Financial Times. We're not that kind of paper. and he opened up his camera, pulled out the film and gave it to me.

4:19I couldn't find words to thank him. If that photograph had appeared in the press, it would have been the end of Virgin Atlantic before we'd even begun. Yeah, so we'd got one plane. This was 40 years ago this year, one secondhand jumbo jet. We'd had a test flight with the Civil Aviation Authority inspectors sitting next to me the day before the inaugural flight to fly to Newark. And as we took off, a bunch of birds went into our engine, and there was this mighty bang, and the plume of red flame went right along the side of the plane. The plane just carried on flying because it's got three more engines, and I went a bit white.

5:07And the CAA inspector just put him around me and said, don't worry, Richard, these things happen, which was very reassuring. And all our staff were on board. And then when we landed, this incredible photographer from the FT was good enough to destroy that bit of footage, which I will forever remember. And overnight, we managed to borrow the money to get another engine. The next day, Virgin Atlantic took off. And, you know, We've had lots of struggles over the last 40 years, but we're still going strong thanks to the wonderful people at Virgin. But we may never have taken off if that picture had appeared all over the newspapers.

5:52And the reason I wanted to start with that clip and the reason why I enjoyed it so much when listening to the book is I think it speaks to something that people just don't talk about often enough, which is luck. Everybody wants to tell you they're a great strategist or a wonderful leader or a hiler of amazing people. Would you be sitting here having this conversation with me if luck hadn't been a big part of your life? I just couldn't agree with you more. I often think that I've been born under a lucky star. When I was reading the Losing and Finding My Virginity book, my life story, there were moments I just said out loud, this guy is certifiably mad.

6:28What on earth made him, having nearly died on the Atlantic, get into a hot air balloon and do the Pacific or then go around the world in a balloon. It made for gripping stories, but every single time something dramatically went wrong and somehow somebody was kind enough to guide us home by hook or by crook. So luck, I think there are lots of people who work just as hard as I've worked or just as hard as you've worked who haven't had those lucky breaks. And, you know, if you keep trying and keep trying, keep trying, you may get those lucky breaks, but it's not guaranteed. And so, yeah, definitely luck plays a big part in survival and becoming an entrepreneur.

7:19There's a lady called Dr. Susan Albers who's done a lot of research into luck. And her findings are that optimistic people are luckier. Optimistic leaders get more luck. What do you think of that? I think that's almost definitely true. I mean, I'm a born optimist. I always look at the positive side of anything and everybody. I always look for the best in people. If there's somebody who works for Virgin, I will never criticize, always praise, always look for what they've done in a positive way. If they've done something which I'm not happy with, they don't need to be told. they'll know that they've messed up or something and they'll make sure they don't do it again.

8:04So I think just general optimism is a really positive trade and I think you're much more likely to fulfil your dreams if you look for the positive in everything. Where do you think it came from in you, the optimism? I suspect my mum. I mean, she tried everything in a really positive way. If she wasn't allowed to become a gliding pilot in the war, she would dress up as a man to become a gliding pilot. She would try everything and we would run to keep up with her. And she always looked in the positive side of us. I remember if we ever said ill about anybody, myself or my sisters, we were sent to the mirror and we had to look at the mirror for 10 minutes because she said it reflected so badly on us they just taught us you know to to we didn't like looking at ourselves for 10 minutes and taught us to to look for the best in everybody and interestingly when you do look for the best in everybody you'll find that most people you know there's there's very few negatives about most people.

9:14I mean, I was playing tennis in Morocco with this gentleman who was a very good tennis player. And afterwards I said, come and have lunch. And he said, I don't think you'll want to have lunch with me, Richard. So I said, what do you mean? He said, well, I'm the son of the Koch brothers. Now that the Koch brother, and I responded to him and said, well, look, I know your uncle and father are more right wing than Genghis Khan. And I know my politics are more on left or center, but don't be stupid. Let's sit down and have lunch. So we sat down and had lunch and we got out a piece of paper and we wrote down the 25 issues of the world.

9:54And we found that on 22 of the 25, we agreed. And there were three that we disagreed on. And yet our politics are completely opposite. And then we agreed that let's work together with our foundations on the ones we agreed on. The point of the story is that most people, when you actually really get to know people. The difference between people is much less than people think, which is, and I wish with all the extreme politics that are going on, people could realise that. Tell me what you think of the discourse that's around at the moment, this idea that you have to be on one side of the fence or the other, this kind of black or white lack of nuance.

10:34Well, I think it's very sad. And I mean, I would say that 80 % of most people are in the middle and people are just saying extreme things in order to get the headlines. But most people want sensible policies with people running them who make sensible decisions. and they don't want the extremes on the left or the extremes on the right. And so it's been a pity the way the world has pivoted. And I think a lot of that may be just down to TV and newspapers needing good extreme stories. And it isn't even just politics, is it? When I was listening to the book, one of the biggest challenges for you and for all of us was the coronavirus pandemic, and you listen to your book and you're there, you're selling large swathes of your Virgin Galactic business to save people's jobs so that they can carry on feeding their kids and pay their mortgage, yet at the same time facing huge sort of criticism personally.

11:49And I just wonder how that felt actually, because it feels to me unfair, and you were in the eye of the storm. I don't know how you felt. Yeah, it was a really tough period for everybody. But obviously, running Virgin, we were in the airline business. We just launched two cruise ships, fitness clubs, hotels. Everything was closed. And British Airways, I think, thought they could get rid of us finally. And they came very, very close because every other airline in the world went as a group to their governments. and they got loans from the government, or at least they got backup loans from the government's guarantees.

12:31And Richard's Airways said they didn't need it. And so we had to get very expensive money to keep Virgin going. And then the second we got it, they then got massive loans from the government and somehow managed to pull a blinder on us, basically. But anyway, we survived. That's the main thing. I flew in on Virgin Atlantic yesterday and it was as delightful as it was 40 years ago. The staff were as delightful as ever. And it's a great airline and it was definitely, definitely, I'm so, so, so pleased that we got through, you know, and the cruise company's going strong and everything's, you know, building back up again.

13:13Have you kind of, have you built your armour over the years? Because I've read this great quote that reminded me of you the other day when I was preparing for this interview and it said you can always spot the pioneer because they're the ones with arrows in their back. Has it felt like that at times over the years, do you feel? You know, generally speaking, I would say that I've had a kind press over the years. I mean, there was, you know, British Airways have always been a thorn and an arrow in our back and any time they feel they can push us, get rid of us, they'll do everything they can to do that.

13:52The few times we've had negative press is quite often been inspired by them to get rid of us. And I mean, there's a feature film called, I think, Hot Air or Dirty Tricks coming out, being made at the moment about the Dirty Tricks campaign that British Airways launched to try to rid themselves of Virgin. And what was extraordinary about that dirty tricks campaign was we only had four planes and yet the lengths they went to get rid of us um uh from you know going through my rubbish bins going through you know having setting up a unit to illegally access our computer information um uh you know to you know spreading malicious stories in the press and and so on and so on it was it was it you know, trying to bring up our passengers and pretending to be from Virgin when they were actually British Airways staff, telling them that Virgin's flights were cancelled and then saying, but don't worry, we can switch you to British Airways.

14:58And so it was definitely the British. They were definitely not British as one knows. And so those punches below the belt hurt. And on that occasion, we won the biggest libel damages in history from British Airways. And we managed to get it out into the open. And we got through that one. And with COVID, we just ended up saying, right, we will survive somehow. And Virgin Atlantic has survived. We've obviously got very expensive debt, which we've got to pay off, which they don't have. So the playing field has changed. but we'll get there. So let's talk about the importance of resilience then. We have a lot of entrepreneurs, business owners, self-starters that listen to high performance.

15:50What would you tell them about the importance of resilience after the life you've lived and the challenges you've faced and overcome? So I think when you're setting up a new company, protecting the downside is very important. And so, you know, like with your first company, it's not always easy to protect the downside. So I must admit, you know, I would mortgage everything with my first venture. So at the houseboat, you know, I would say to Joan, my girlfriend at the time, can you just sign here? You know, don't worry about it. So when you're building up your first business, in those days, there was no such thing as venture capitalists or people you could go and get money.

16:37So everything, you somehow had to generate your own way of creating your business. But once we'd gone from building a record company and it was now the most successful independent record label in the world, we just signed the Rolling Stones and Janet Jackson and so on and I decided the airline business is shite and I'm sure that we can do it better. But I couldn't be sure that it would succeed and I couldn't be sure that other people would agree with me. So the key was in the negotiation with Boeing for the plane was the right to hand it back to them at the end of the first 12 months if it didn't work out.

17:16And Boeing agreed to that. So I could then say to the team, the other teams at the record company, look, we're not going to put you out of business if the airline doesn't work. We can hand the plane back. it gives me 12 months to prove that we can create a great airline. And as it turned out, at the end of the first 12 months, everybody loved Virgin Atlantic, and we got another couple of planes from Boeing. But the downside of being protected, and ever since then, any new business I do, I look at ways of protecting against absolute disaster. So Virgin, the group, we still own 100 % of. And then we have subsidiary companies.

18:02And so when we're going into space, it's a standalone subsidiary company separate from the group. And Virgin Trains was a separate company. And so we can then bring other shareholders into those companies. and if God forbid anything went really wrong with any one individual company, it's not going to bring the rest of the group crashing down. Well, let's talk about that then because I want to play this clip from your book. You're a megalomaniac, Richard, Simon said. We've been friends since we were teenagers, but if you do this, I'm not sure that we can carry on working together. What I'm telling you is that you go ahead with this over my dead body.

18:45So that actually is the reaction, isn't it, to you saying you wanted to set up an airline? Yeah, I mean, it was universal within Virgin and outside. And Lord King, who headed British Airways, said, too old to rock and roll, too young to fly. You'll never succeed, basically. And I owned 100 % of the company. I'm not really interested in making money. I'm interested in creating things. And that's always been my reason for being. So the idea of creating the best airline in the world was something that excited me. I felt it was needed. I mean, in those days, if you flew on British Airways or TWA or Pan Am, you were lucky to have a lump of chicken dumped in your lap.

19:33There was no entertainment. There was old planes. The crew, obviously, were thoroughly unhappy working there. and there was no redeeming good factors about them whatsoever. So that was perfect for us to come in with something fresh and exciting. And that's what we've tried to do throughout my life is create things we can be really proud of and not get the accountants in, because if you get the accountants in, you know they're going to tell you why you shouldn't do it. But my feeling is that if you create something that is exceptional, that more money will come in in the year than go out. And then the accountants can add up the money at the end of the year.

20:18And hopefully, they'll tell you that more money's come in than gone out. And then you can go on to the next year. And I'm a great believer in just saying, screw it, let's try it. I mean, as I was walking in, somebody was telling me that a friend of theirs called Rowan Gormley, many, many, many years ago, was in a meeting with me. And they were talking about, he said, well, why don't we do financial services? And everybody in the room looked at him and went, why on earth would Virgin be in financial services? And Rowan said, because it's a dreadful industry, they try to rip you off. it would be ripe for Virgin to go in and shake it up.

21:03And I went, yeah, let's do it. And Rowan went, what do you mean, let's do it? I said, yeah, let's start it. You're now managing director of Virgin Financial Services. Go ahead and do it. And that's what he did. And many years later, Virgin Money grew and has been very successful. So I think, you know, just that screw it, let's do it mentality is very important. And it plays into the idea of exploration. Let's listen to this. I've always lived my life by thriving on opportunity and adventure. And some of the best ideas come out of the blue. And you have to keep an open mind to see their virtue.

21:45Just as an American lawyer called me to say, Jess, setting up an airline in 1984, a Swedish ballooning fanatic asked me to fly across the Atlantic with him in 1987. The proposals come in thick and fast, and I have no idea what the next one will be. I do, however, know that if I listen carefully enough, the good ideas somehow all fit into the framework that Virgin has become. So if I listen carefully enough, a good idea will fit into the framework that Virgin has become. So what are you listening for? Well, on that occasion, you know, we didn't have the internet. We were building what we hoped would become the most respected brand in the world.

22:19And I had to use myself to put the Virgin brand on the map. So if somebody came to me and said, no one's crossed the Atlantic in a hot air balloon before, you know, my brain would have said, we could have quite a big Virgin sign on the side of that balloon. It'll be fun to go and learn to become a ballooning pilot. Maybe I should give it a go. And then I remember saying to him, are you married? Do you have children? And he said, yes. So I thought, well, he obviously doesn't want to commit suicide. Let's take it the next step. And then a couple of weeks later, I find myself in Spain getting my ballooning license and the start of extraordinary adventures that had many, many, many ups and many downs.

23:10Indeed, including bouncing across the ocean, which was one of the ups and downs. What really intrigued me when I listened to that, because just being involved in high performance, Richard, just uses up all my spare time, all my mental capacity. I feel kind of at the edge all the time. Yet you were running all these businesses, involved in all these companies, doing all these amazing things, and still found the time to get your pilot's license for ballooning, go and do these amazing challenges with Pear, hop on a speedboat and race across the world. How did you find the time to do the things you were doing, aside from just sitting in an office and running the businesses?

23:46Being dyslexic, I learned very early on the art of delegation. Now, I would say to anybody who's doing anything in life, and particularly running businesses or building businesses, whether you're dyslexic or not, you must learn the art of delegation. You must realize that you can't do everything yourself. You must really run your companies as if you've been run over the next day and that you've got a fantastic team of people to run the day-to-day running of it. I'm a great believer in getting a company set up and then two or three months later, you leave the building, you put somebody else in charge.

24:29I used to go back to my houseboat. if there's somebody else in charge in the building um then a lot of their time is going to be spent people always want to see the top person in the company uh just you know being polite to people um you know doing a lot of time time is wasted um being the top person whereas you now are out of the building and and you can start thinking about the bigger pictures and and you know move into the next venture or jumping in when there's firefighting that really needs you to fix it or jumping in to put the company on the map. Unfortunately, I think I've managed to surround myself with great people over the years.

25:13How do you find great people? Generally, the best people that one finds are from within the company. And bringing in the so-called experts from outside, people often make big mistakes. And if you're not careful, you can actually ruin a company by bringing somebody in at the top who's not imbued with the philosophy of your company and the general atmosphere of the company. Did you learn that by making that mistake? We certainly made that mistake on occasions. But on Necker Island, before I lived there full time, there was a management change. And they brought a couple in from outside. And they said to the staff that you can't drink with a guest.

26:04I mean, I don't know. They started putting rules in, which was just so antiquated. and we had to do something quickly about it. And we actually changed that couple. But so by and large, within a company, there are quite often people that you don't actually realize are capable of more than they are because they are the receptionist or because they are doing something. Your brain pictures them doing that. But if you give them that chance to do something more, and they'll often be so grateful that they will actually surprise you and will excel at a bigger appointment.

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28:59so what would you advise for our audience who might always go outside to find the next appointment what would you advise they they ask of the people in the business how do they go about working out if someone that's doing a certain role in the business is capable of of more responsibility of a greater role so i think i think the people who are running a company should know uh know all their people well and they should go out to the pub together. They should let their hair down with the people who work with them. And especially when the company is relatively small, they should know which people have got capabilities that are more than they currently have.

29:45And as a leader, You know, I think it's very important that, you know, if you have a staff party, you know, you're the first into the swimming pool fully dressed so that everybody else can come in and have a good time. You're the first to be dancing on the table. Make sure that it's a strong table. On NECA, all our tables are built for dancing so it doesn't collapse under you and you look a real fool. And what does that do for people? It gives them the permission to let their hair down and have a great night. There are parties where you see the directors sitting with their ties and their suits in the corner of the room sipping champagne.

30:25And everybody else feels that they must stand around sipping sherry or champagne. And everybody has a pretty dull night. I'm just trying to illustrate that people are human beings. And, you know, you should, the people you work with should be, you know, could think of them as your nephews, your nieces, your children, you know, and your friends. Yeah. And just make them feel completely at home in the company that they're working for. You know, I mean, with Virgin Atlantic, when we took off on that flight 40 years ago, I remember looking around at the staff and thinking, they're so vibrant they're so fantastic you know can we keep that you know in three years five years six years let alone did i ever think 40 years um but on a virgin atlantic flight today it's it's they've still got that same spirit that they had um 40 years ago and um and that's by us never having you know somebody managing the company that suddenly brings in archaic rules that destroys that joie de vie.

31:41So how do you then get out of their way to allow them to thrive? Because you're Richard Branson, you're the face of Virgin, everyone would imagine that you're involved in every possible decision. So we've got a lot of companies, and I'm obviously not involved in every decision. And as the ultimate leader, you've got to let people make mistakes, and you've got to let people make good things, and you mustn't second-guess every move they make. and if they do make a mistake, you mustn't criticize them for it. I mean, you've just got to accept that mistakes get made and if you were running it, you'd make mistakes too and just hope that they make more positive things than negative things.

32:24And then ultimately, obviously, if it's a whole series of negative things, then you do need to get somebody different to run the company. But by and large, that should happen very, very seldomly, I think, especially if you promote it from within, you know their capabilities before you've promoted them. How quickly do you make your mind up about someone? Are you decisive? So if you'd asked me this 40 years ago, I would have said, I'll make up my mind about somebody within the first two minutes of meeting them. I've learned over the years how wrong I was and how people I might have first thought thought slightly negatively about can turn out to be the most wonderful people.

33:08And it just took getting to know them to realize that. So I think one's got to be careful. I mean, obviously, if you're busy, busy, busy, you're having to make quick decisions, but you've got to be careful about judging people too quickly. And it's important to really get to know people. Which plays nicely into this clip from your new book. You should be great listeners, for there is a lot to learn. You should roll up your sleeves, have fun, and try out everything, and in time hopefully become capable of being leaders of people too. The way to become a great leader is to look for the best in people.

33:45Seldom criticise, always praise. So that's advice you were leaving to your children? Yeah. Yeah, and I think, and grandchildren now. Yes. I think it's important. and it's a much happier life to run your life like that, both for yourself and for the people concerned. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to repeat what I said earlier, but there's just no point in criticizing somebody who knows they've made a mistake. What's the point in them hearing it from their boss? And the worst still is if you as the leader criticize somebody that it it's emphasized in it you know times 10 because you know you're you're you're the leader so it's it's much more much more painful um and would you were you like this right from day one when you set up virgin records or have you learned over the years i think i i think i was like that from a very young age um and i do think that my dyslexia helped because um you know when I was young, I was the youngest.

34:58So I was 15, 16. I had people working with me who were 17, 18, 19. I was learning myself. And most likely, they were more capable than me anyway. So that taught me to be kind. Because you talk about dyslexia really being a superpower. Could you explain that for us? Well, I think it can be painful. at school but in in when i was at school they didn't know what dyslexia was i was just thought of as thick the good thing about being dyslexic if you can be encouraged to excel at the things you you you enjoy and you're good at um and not worry too much about the things you're not good at but because there are some things you're not good at you're going to excel really potentially really well at the things that you're good at and and so concentrate on those and then you know delegate or find other people to help you with the things that you're not you're not good at and that's that's exactly what I did if I hadn't been dyslexic I would have stayed in stayed in school till I was and then gone to university and not done this sort of slightly more taken the more unconventional path that I took one of the other things you talk about often is the importance of writing things down using your notebooks.

36:17Let's listen to this. Our most essential possession is a standard size school notebook, which can be bought at any stationary shop on any high street. I carry this everywhere, and I write down all the comments that are made to me by Virgin staff and anyone else I meet. I make notes of all telephone conversations and all meetings, and I draft out letters and lists of telephone calls to make. Over the years, I've worked my way through a bookcase of them, and the discipline of writing everything down ensures that I have to listen to people carefully. It feels like a very simple superpower of yours, this idea of constantly making notes, making lists, ticking them off, reminding yourself of things.

36:53Yeah, I think that I've seen leaders walk around their companies and talk to their staff and talk to their customers and not write things down. And I suspect one day they most likely will have had 20 or 30 different little ideas, some big ideas, they'll only remember maybe one or two by the end of the day. You almost wonder whether they feel it's demeaning for them to be writing things down, slightly unhip. By writing things down, you can make sure that you get back, you deal if a staff member has an issue with something. You don't have to do it yourself, but you can send a note, delegate it, get it dealt with.

37:44And they will forever be grateful. But more importantly, most likely that issue is an issue that all your staff members have. So that's sorted it out for everybody. And in time, you end up with, let's say with Virgin Atlantic. I mean, every single time I've taken a flight and, you know, from 40 years back to now, I've always had the notebook with me. And, you know, like on one of the very, very first flights, I met somebody who'd come from Israel who was flying to New York. And he said, you know, Richard, if you had the best kosher food on board, there are a whole group of us who fly regularly to and from New York.

38:35and we would only fly Virgin Atlantic because nobody else has good kosher food. And when I got back, I made absolutely certain that we had the best kosher food on board. And 40 years on, we have, I don't know, 50, 100 people on board who are always flying us because they know that we've got good kosher food. I mean, that's just one of thousands of little things that you just tick the box. And it can make the difference between a company surviving or not. But it also makes for an exceptional airline or an exceptional train company or exceptional cruise company rather than just an average company.

39:21And so I think leaders should be doing this all the time. I think a lot of people believe that leaders are the ones that have to answer questions. but it sounds like you're saying the most important thing as a leader you can do is ask questions. Oh, yes. I mean, I think asking questions and just listening is important. I mean, I know what I think. So hearing my voice is not going to improve anything at Virgin. But listening to what other people think can make a massive difference. And, you know, the people who really know what's going on, I mean, again, going back to say Virgin Atlantic, the people who, you know, who know what's going on are the people in the front lines, you know, our cabin crew, our pilots, our engineers.

40:14I remember one of our engineers once said to me, if all the planes had names like Scarlet Lady or Maiden Voyager, I don't think we'd maintain them any better than just having 0085 on the side of the plane. But I think we would sort of treat them... And yeah, I think we might even find we engineer them better because people can say, you know, Maiden Voyager, oh my God, it's had that same problem again. And Scarlet Lady, you know, she's been playing up with such and such. And you start thinking of the planes as humans rather than just nebulous numbers. and yeah, so we introduced names for all the planes and all our ships and all our trains and they became more human as a result.

41:17Let's move from planes to helicopters because this had me laughing out loud when I listened. The next thing I knew, the imposing structure of Sydney Harbour Bridge was approaching fast in front of me. I tried dropping my arms as I just taught myself but it wasn't going to be enough. I tried shouting to the helicopter pilot to climb higher but that was just as futile. There was no way he could hear me. Higher, higher, I shouted. I'm going to hit the bridge. I was sure of it. What a way to go, I thought, zooming across the sky in a harness before, splat, a face-first collision with one of Australia's most iconic constructions.

41:58I almost lost count of the times listening to the book that you nearly ended things for good and that feels like one of them. Yeah, I'd arrived in Australia to launch Virgin Mobile and instead of going into Australia, they took me out to a field outside Sydney and they hadn't briefed me. They told me to lie on the grass. They attached a harness to me, a bungee jump about 200 feet above me and then the helicopter took off And I took off heading into Sydney, 200 foot dangling below this helicopter. And initially, I started spinning around, and then I managed to get into a skydive position. And then it was just wonderful.

42:48I just felt like a bird flying. I mean, if I drop my arm slightly to the left, I go to the left. I drop my arm slightly to the right, I go to the right. And it was something I would highly recommend anybody dangle 200 foot below a helicopter. and feel like a bird. But then, as I said in the book, the bridge started looming up. Well, fortunately, they did actually pull up the helicopter. Did you honestly think that was going to be it? I hopefully assumed that they would pull up. But I definitely, I could see the faces of the people walking across the bridge. I think there were more hairy moments in my life than that.

43:30But we then landed the other side and on these cages were all these people who had contracts signed to Orange and other mobile phone companies. And I gallantly released them all. And then we launched Virgin Mobile. But I think almost everything, every new venture we've done in my life, people just assume that I'm going to do some massive stunt to put it on the map and assume that I won't say no. And I've generally speaking enjoyed all of them. Why didn't you ever say no? the one i should have said no to was in vegas when we uh flew in uh we started a service from la to vegas and they they took me to the palm hotel it was about a 50 mile an hour wind was blowing uh they still hadn't told me what i was doing um then as we went into the hotel they said And I could see all these people gathered outside the hotel for a party.

44:38They said, Richard, we're going to pop up to the top floor to the roof and you're going to jump into this crowd at the bottom and you're going to make your grand entrance that way. And as we were going up the lift, I thought something doesn't feel right. The wind is very strong. wrong i don't i had a stump man that used to um or used to come and help me with these things he hadn't been you know he hadn't checked it and i tried to delay it and then they said well no no just come up to the roof and um you know we just do the photographs with the press on the roof um we'll completely understand if you don't want to do it and i knew that when i got to the roof I wouldn't be able to say no.

45:28So we get to the roof. They said, well, look, there's no wind. There wasn't any wind because there was a six foot wall around the roof. And then I screw it, let's do it mentality took over. And the next moment I'm jumping and I'm going down a hundred miles an hour down the side of the building. And I hit the side of the building with my ass halfway down and I end up at the bottom like a rag doll with blood just pouring down my legs from a very naked, naked bruised butt. But at least I didn't spin around. So that was one that I definitely should have said no to. You should have done. But on the flip side, these stunts worked miraculously well for setting the tone of Virgin, for sharing the brand.

46:16I'd love to know where the idea came from and why they were so powerful, but also I was intrigued by the fact that these stunts seem to rattle your competitors so often. Yeah, I think British Airways, we were very much the David versus the Goliath, but the way they treated us, it was as if they were taking on a Goliath and they were definitely worried that we would grow to the extent that we have actually, I think, grown. And so they were trying to snuff us out early on. We didn't have a big advertising budget. So if British Airways stumbled, we would have a bit of fun at their expense. So there was an occasion that they were sponsoring the London Wheel opposite the House of Commons, and the wheel was lying on the ground, and they invited all the press there to see the wheel being pulled up.

47:16And I got a call at six in the morning, and I was told they had a technical problem. And we happened to have a little airship company. And so I rang up the head of the airship company and scrambled the airship. and the airship flew over all the TV and all the press and this wheel that was lying flat on the ground. And the side of the airship simply said, BA can't get it up. And we got the headlines. And even although they did get it up later that day, their story was a non-story. So, yeah, so we did pull their tail on occasions. and uh uh but but um uh but i think you know it made people smile and i think i think i think a lot of with anything like stunts or anything it's really important to make people smile people have got to you know enjoy what you're doing mustn't feel like a stunt it's got it's got to be uh it's you know the more humor you can have the better um i mean on another occasion you know i love April Fool's Day and every April Fool's I will do something fairly major and we took off at 4am in the morning in a UFO and we flew over London and it was a real UFO so there was like anybody who looked up it was there's no question it was a UFO and panic broke out and And all the radio stations took up.

48:57The police were called. The army were called out. Everybody stopped down the motorway and came out and were looking up. And then we landed in this foggy field outside Gatwick, and they surrounded the field. And just like an ET, we had this door that very slowly came down, and then we had this little ET figure that was on board who walked down the steps. And this policeman who'd come with his truncheon just ran in the opposite direction. And when I came out, we got arrested for wasting the army and the police time. But by the end of the day, they saw the funny side of it and they let us go. It plays into this.

49:43All human beings are born as entrepreneurs. But unfortunately, many of us never had the opportunity to unwrap that part of our life. So it remains hidden. Now, as you do have the opportunity, don't waste it. I think entrepreneurship is our natural state, a big adult word that probably boils down to something much more obvious like playfulness. And we've spoken a lot in this conversation when we're nearly out of time about the importance of playfulness, the fun that you've had along the way. I'm really interested in what you say at the start there, that entrepreneurship is in all of us. What would you like to leave people thinking about regarding entrepreneurship and the opportunities that are in front of them?

50:20when i when i started out um in britain there was anita roddick who was a female entrepreneur and there was myself and there were no other entrepreneurs i mean it was um the word entrepreneur i don't even think existed i mean bizarrely it existed in france where there weren't any at all but um in in those days but you know you had british airways british gas british steel British coal, British rail, et cetera, et cetera, British telecom, all owned by government. And they were all abysmally run and miserable to work for. And then entrepreneurism got born. And entrepreneurs are, you know, I'm biased, but entrepreneurs are what is fixing the world.

51:05I mean, entrepreneurs are improving other people's lives in every single different area. You know, if climate change is going to be fixed, it'll be through entrepreneurism. I mean, with government setting the right boundaries, etc., entrepreneurs will fix cancer, they'll fix health, they'll fix pretty well everything you can think of. And, you know, what is a business? A business is simply somebody coming up with an idea to make other people's lives better. That's all it is. And if you can come up with an idea to make other people's lives better, possibly through frustration, your own frustration with them, something you think, you know, I'm frustrated by, why do they do it that way?

51:46And then you should say, okay, I should do it myself. I can do it better than they're doing it. And if you can have that screw it, let's do it mentality, just, you know, just try things. Keep trying things. And then ultimately, something will stick, something will work. And then once you've been able to build one entrepreneurial company, you can build any numbers of entrepreneurial companies. You also need to remember that companies are just all about people. I mean, if you find really good people who believe in your idea and give them the freedom to go and excel, and you hopefully will have a really successful company and be proud of what you're doing.

52:30Brilliant. We're going to finish with some quickfire questions, if you don't mind. What do you believe are the three most important behaviors for any business person? Surrounding themselves with great people, believing 100 % in what they're doing and because they believe in what they're doing, they will work day and night to put the company or the project on the map and make it succeed. What advice would you give to a teenage Richard just starting out on this journey? Screw it, just do it. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? I think I mentioned it earlier, but just look for the best in everybody.

53:12AI. Positive about the future with AI or worried about it? if I have to choose one or the other positive. What lights you up at the moment? The ability to use my ability to be able to ring anybody in the world and get through to make positive change. There's three things that I want to share that Holly, your daughter, put onto social media and I get an answer from you on. The first thing she said is you've taught her the importance of being present. Why does that matter so much? I think we only have one life and we owe it to everybody in the room to be present and to give our all to whoever you're with at any one time and not to be within oneself.

54:07She said that you've taught her that the only thing to be scared of regarding dreams is if they're too small. Yeah, I think it's a waste of life to not dream big. And the other point she made is you've taught her the importance of childlike wonder. I think we should always be dreaming and trying to make our dreams come true. Brilliant. And the final question after this really interesting hour that we've spoken for, what would you leave or like to leave ringing in the eyes and ears of our audience for them to live their own high-performance life? I think just to spend your life doing something that you can be proud of and surrounding yourself with people who can be proud of you and proud of what they're doing.

54:55Brilliant. Sounds like you've enjoyed the journey. So far, so good. And it's a long way from over here. Thank you very much.

55:06Well, that's it for today's show. Look, we want to give you even more amazing guests and the best way you can help make that dream a reality is by just clicking the follow button. Remember, chase world-class basics, stay empathetic and follow your own version of high performance.

56:10We'll be right back. now at Amazon and Walmart. Ready? Your skin looks amazing. So smooth and beach ready. Let's go. At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

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