Richard Osman: The Introvert Behind The TV Star & Bestselling Author (E294)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. television video games just let them do it okay so instead of sending them to cello lessons let them play call of duty that's my message to parents that was the voice of best-selling author broadcaster and tv producer richard osman who joins us on this episode of high performance the show that explores the stories and ideas of some of the most extraordinary people in the world i'm jay comfrey and like so many of you i'm someone just fascinated by becoming a better version of myself. And I'm Damien Hughes, an expert in high performance. I've worked with the England national football team, Scotland rugby team, and a range of other professional sports teams right across the world, as well as with leading business people to help them understand how to get the best out of themselves and others.

1:16In this podcast, we discuss both how people achieve great things and the why that drives them. And today's guest is the multi-talented Richard Osman. Look, I guess he's best known as the co-creator and host of the BBC quiz show Pointless here in the UK, but more recently has transformed himself into a global best-selling author with the Thursday Murder Club mystery novels and new book series We Solve Murders. And mate, we loved this, didn't we? I loved meeting Richard. I thought he was such a smart, funny and heartwarming conversation that we had with him where he opened up about the anxiety of learning to start something new, as well as his philosophy on how he pushed through fear to achieve success.

1:58The bit that resonated most with me was when he spoke about his introverted nature and how it shaped his career, as well as learning to embrace feeling a little bit different from other people. Also, I had no idea his brother Matt is in the rock band Suede. So actually we spoke about that and it was really interesting to hear just how his brother's creative journey inspired Richard. As well as this conversation, I just want to let you know, you can hear an exclusive 30-minute excerpt of Richard's brand new audiobook, We Solve Murders. It's available right now on the High Performance app. Just click the link in the description.

2:32Let's do it then, as we welcome the incredible and fascinating Richard Osman to High Performance.

2:42Well, Richard, thank you for joining us. Pleasure. Thank you for asking me. Don't ever feel like your best days are behind you. reinvention is the purest form of hope is a quote that I read ahead of this conversation which just made me think of you and I see you as a master of reinvention so does that quote reinvention is the purest form of hope does that speak to you uh it doesn't really and I'll tell you why often people um overestimate me because they say wow you've been a you've been a tv producer you created those shows and then then you're a tv presenter uh and now you know you're writing for a living it's I I mean, you can do everything.

3:18But the truth is, those jobs are all the same. It's all the same gig. And it's just saying the right things in the right order, essentially, but in different formats. So for me, I've never reinvented myself. I have continued doing exactly what I've always done, but in new formats, essentially. So writing is understanding what an audience wants and doing that, though it takes a year to do. TV presenting is very, very easy, Jake, as you'll know. Simple. It's just talking to camera, understanding what people want to hear. and TV producing is sort of somewhere in between the two of those, which is, again, it's all about what do the audience want, how do they want to hear it, how do you put that together?

3:53And, yeah, the jobs, I would say, are very, very similar. So I don't think I've ever reinvented myself. See, I think you're too modest because my wife worked behind the scenes in television and if someone had said to her, why don't you have a go in front of the camera, I mean, that would be the end of her world. Me too. I never, ever, ever wanted to be in front of the camera. So there must have been an element. Oh, my God, never. I've never done stand-up, never done anything, never done any performing i'm not an extrovert in that regard uh completely accidentally that i became a tv presenter uh and entirely on my own terms if that makes sense i could be a tv presenter if i could be me but i could never do the thing i could never do the thing that you can do which is you take on different gigs you go out you have to sort of understand slightly different things about who you need to be i can i can only be me on television in books i can be lots of different people but on tv i can i can't go out there and say hey and welcome to saturday night and this is the show where i just can't it's it's not in me but you still have to do the thing really well uh yeah well it's i try i've always done stuff that i love and so you know you you hope that you'd be able to do it well so you know i make tv shows that i would watch i presented tv shows i would watch i write books that i would read and if you do that then well is not really the question it's it's you know are you being entertaining and i never think about um you know what's the craft here when i'm presenting tv when i write books i do but when i'm presenting tv just let the cameras roll and talk to your mate so what do you tell us about that first opportunity you got in front of the camera um well as jake will tell you quite often if you if you um pitch game shows quiz shows things like that if you tell people what the rules are they you can't understand them they they're completely uh uh you know they're so complicated so you play them through instead so you go to the channel and you say look here's four contestants i always had the producers playing presenters uh so here's our show and we did that for for pointless uh and a guy called tom blakeson played the host who's one of our producers i played the co-host and they loved the show and at the end they said well look we need someone who's a bit like richard to be the co-host someone you know knows a few facts but can be funny do a bit of banter and somebody at the BBC, I don't know who it was to this day, said, well, why don't we ask Richard?

6:10And so they asked me. And genuinely, I had zero interest in it. It's not something that, you know, being in front of camera is not something that ever interested me. But I thought, I mean, what was I, 40 years old? And, you know, that's the reinvention thing, I suppose, is occasionally saying yes to things that you probably shouldn't say yes to. And I just said, yeah, because why not? It's a story to tell the grandkids in, you know, 30 years' time. And, yeah, I mean, 15 years later, I'm still on telly. So I'm glad I said yes in a way. But I could have continued very happily not saying yes. But I'm glad I did.

6:45That's the reinvention thing is not closing off avenues, I guess. So were there fears of saying yes, though? It's a really good question. In a way, no, because I've worked on telly so long that I know almost all shows fail. and this was a show that was launched on BBC 2 at like kind of 4.30 in the afternoon so it's not a big kind of slot, it's not high profile and I've made enough shows that only went for one series so I just thought would it be an interesting experience because I've not done it before and it's a story, it's a story you know for a party in 10 years time so I didn't have fear in that way, the first time I really had fear was sitting in the makeup chair and hearing my first live audience I could hear the audience out in the studio and that's the first time I just thought because, you know, I've sat in studios and heard a live audience a thousand times.

7:33I hadn't heard it when I had to go on and talk to them. I just said that's not something that I had. So I definitely feared that. I feared being in front of the audience. I didn't fear being in front of the cameras because I've worked in the industry for so long. You know, I sat in front of cameras in rehearsals and all sorts of things. I know when I'm sitting in a gallery, I'm looking at people who are just in front of cameras. I see how they act. So that didn't frighten me particularly. But being in front of a studio audience, that frightened me. Even to this day, I'd rather do a show that didn't have a studio audience than did have a studio audience.

8:07So what did you do to get through that fear? I shat myself. No. I mean, yeah, well, I mean, essentially, that is what I didn't physically do. But you have to live with it. You have to go, well, I mean, there's two choices here. Either feel that fear or go home. And you're not going to go home because look where you are. um so i just uh i sat with it i went out there i felt slightly uncomfortable uh and then the next time i felt a bit more comfortable and then a bit more comfortable and then i worked at what i was doing and then i didn't fear it quite so much i've always if i'm in front of an audience i always feel i always have an insecurity but you know i definitely felt that um you know it was the best thing about saying yes was facing that and doing that and something that i hadn't done before and I think that was probably very good for me.

8:56And looking at your story both from when you were a young guy looking for an opportunity as a writer and now as a TV host and a podcaster and an author, I think all of it does come down to you feeling the fear but doing it anyway. I think a lot of it comes down to everything I've ever done really has been you start out with a blank piece of paper, you know, that's the thing that I'm comfortable with, you know, I'm not somebody to put myself out there and say, look at me or commission this or get me to write this article. What I like to do is write something down and show that to someone and then say, we like that, we'll give you money for that.

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11:35So one of the things that we're fascinated by on the podcast, Richard, is what Sigmund Freud called the golden seed moment, that he suggested that anybody that goes to create anything, there's always a moment where somebody encourages them or nurtures that seed long before the seeds of it are ever evident. Can you think of a moment when your ability to be comfortable with that blank piece of paper started to manifest? Genuinely, I can't, because I'm not from a family that has worked in the industries I've worked in. Not from a background where anyone worked in that sort of world. but I've never, ever, ever been without a bit of paper and a pen.

12:16I mean, don't forget, I'm 53, so I grew up when there was no TV on. You know, you'd have children's TV for like an hour, so the rest of the time you're going to have to do something. I would sit down with a pen and a bit of paper and dice and play little games and things like that, so I've always had it. And again, it's not something that's come to my family. I've always wanted to be in the conversation. I always watched TV. When I watched TV, I was seeing who was on the credits. You know, if I looked at books, most books in this world, people would say, oh, I love that book. I couldn't tell you who wrote it.

12:41I've never, ever looked at a book and not known who wrote it. I'm fascinated with who is creating, what are they doing, how does that work? But there was something in the DNA. And my brother had it as well. He's a musician. Something in the DNA that I've watched things on television. And I thought, oh, my God. I mean, that's amazing. That's so exciting that people are doing that. And I never thought I could do it as well. But when it happened, when I started working in telly, I thought, well, of course. That's what you've been thinking about for all of these years. and my brother, you know, just sitting and listening to records and, you know, listening to this stuff and just reading music magazines and, of course, that's what he ended up doing.

13:18Was he older than you? He's, yeah, almost four years older than me, three, four years older than me. So we were both absolute self-starters in that regard. But that's interesting, I think, the fact that you had the opportunity to see your brother do something that not very many brothers do, which is, you know, perform in a band and have some success. Yeah. I wonder whether that made you think, oh I so anyone can do anything if they yeah a little bit a little bit that because you know I always as I say you know I was writing for magazines and I was doing bits and bobs and there was like an open access program on Radio Sussex which you could go and do and I went down and did that so I loved being in the world um yeah when when when Suede first got massive and they're on top of the pops a bit of me did think well that's interesting because he's from exactly of the same house.

14:06He's not just from the same background. He has literally the same background. Literally, you know, he's got the bedroom next to mine, so there's no excuse now for me not to do it. But he was an entirely different world to me, and he's a very different human being to me. He's very much more get out there and get stuff done, and very proactive, very front foot, you know, really attacks the world. But, yeah, there was definitely something there where you think, oh, that's interesting, because I'm very proud of my brother, and I like the way he goes about things. I feel I go about things in a similar way creatively and I thought well he's done it but I never thought now I've got to do it or now I just carried on doing it but you know the moment someone started paying me was the moment things really come off because otherwise unless someone's paying you it's not a lot you can do if you come from no money and when was the first time somebody paid that was I was I'd left university we'd all moved to London because you got housing benefit back then so you could all move to London which kids these days can't do and I had a job interview in the afternoon like in like media sales you know like on the telephones all day but there was a an advert in the newspaper for a computer games television show and I'd just written an article about computer games for a golf magazine I mean this is how random careers are right I mean that's the point of it you never know what leads to what I'd written a thing about computer simulation games for this golf magazine i saw this thing about computer games i'm not a big gamer but i thought i've just written something why don't i apply to that went in there uh and i'll tell you the reason genuinely the reason i got the job which again is that thing of sometimes it's you never know the thing that gets you is the woman who's running that company it was very reverse snobbish and she looked at my cv and i went to cambridge and she went um uh how could a guy goes to Cambridge, how can you speak to someone on a council estate in Basildon?

15:56And I said, well, I mean, I grew up on a council estate in Bitterrookie. It was about 10 miles down the road. So I think I'd be okay. And from that moment, that was it. I got the job and never, I never, I never had a day off since really. Brilliant. But again, when I got in it, I just watched TV all my life. And Jake will tell you, there's plenty of people in TV who don't watch TV. And so if you, if you love it, actually it shows through. It's not like you have to kind of do something special. It's just... So what do you think it did for you, the fact you'd watched, and not just watched, but really observed TV?

16:27Well, because the whole job of TV back then, when there was a bit of money around, was selling shows and selling new shows and selling versions of old shows and working out what it is that people want, you know, what's just been a hit, and you could do a similar version of what's just failed, and so a channel needs something filled. And those are things I just understood absolutely implicitly. People would sort of pitch things in pitch meetings. I'd go, but that's that show that's already on, and they wouldn't have watched it. so I had all this extra information and I had like you know so I knew when you go into sell to somebody you have to really really really know their business so you have to know your business of course you have to know what it is you're selling but you have to really know their business because they know what they're doing all day they're you know if you run channel four that's all you do for a living so you're running channel four at the time so you're obsessed with channel four you're obsessed with the ratings you know exactly what's worked what hasn't worked so I have to know what they need and why they need it and I have to respect they understand what they need and how they need it and and you know so I go in understanding them understanding me and somewhere in the middle you sell something every time you've mentioned selling your face lights up a bit I love it yeah isn't that terrible well no it's great because I think we're all sales people you know people are either selling themselves or selling their goods or selling their expertise or selling their love to each other so what have you learned about the art of selling that you think would be valuable for our audience?

17:47I think you can't sell what you don't believe in. That's for sure. And sometimes you're put in a position in life where you have to. You know, if you're working for somebody and you're working in a business where the product is not the thing that you would choose to sell. And in that situation, there's one job for you, which is work out in your head why it's not the right thing and come up with a thing that is right and start your own business in that regard. But if you believe in the thing you sell, understand that almost everyone won't want to buy it. And that's absolutely OK. Why is that important?

18:16Because you can get obsessed with an idea and you can get obsessed with being right. You can get obsessed with, I've got this script and it's brilliant. I've got this game show and everyone's going to love it. And most people will not because on any given day, they do not need the thing that you are selling. They just don't. And that's fine. But you only need one person. That's the truth. And if it's a TV, you just need the BBC to buy it or ITV. If you've got a product, you just need Wix to buy it or you just need Sainsbury's to buy it. And everything follows from that. so most people won't want to buy it but if you just get that feel sometimes where you know you've got something and if you don't know you've got something don't go and set it because it's not it's even if they buy it it's going to be an absolute nightmare but i've sold things that weren't any good before and it's not not a fun year afterwards so believe in the thing you've got um and work out who will need it and then go and talk to that person and don't be pushy because they want it.

19:09You've got it. Sit back a little bit. Occasionally sit forward. I would always pitch with one other person. We would always do a dual pitch. Because? Well, just because a double act is easier. Listen, doing this podcast is easier, right? Because you can come from an angle. You can come from an angle. You can talk to each other. It's just, you know, you've got different, slightly different things that interest you. So there's a triangle between the three of us. And presenting TV shows, it's always easier if there's two of you. There's a reason, you know, that Ant and Dec are so huge, and, you know, that Bake Off and everything that's presented by two people.

19:42And if you're selling, it is one of you's got to lean forward, one of you's got to lean back. That's the way I always think about it. If not physically, then mentally. So one of you's always got to be going, oh, it's so lovely to be here, and oh, my God, we love Sainsbury's, and my whole family shopped here forever, and it's a tough job. What's selling for you at the moment? That's interesting. And you're just gearing up for Christmas, and the other one is going, oh my god i just think we've got i think this might work for you this thing we've got and you know the other person goes yeah don't worry about that for the moment yeah to tell us you know what what else is going on it's just that you're should we just open a new shop right in the in eggham and that's interesting it's a slightly different demographic how's that working chat chat chat and you go anyway listen this thing we've got and you just do you play different roles sit forward sit back why is the sitting forward sitting back thing why is that effective when it comes to selling because it's a selling as a relationship selling is understanding what somebody needs, which is what this person's doing.

20:34That's empathy. And the other bit is delivery, which is what you're doing. I would always pitch with a guy called Tim. And Tim was, he was so good at this. So I would do the actual selling, here's the show, and here's why it might work for your team. Tim Hinks, is it? Tim Hinks, yeah. He's still in the business now and is the very best in the business. He's so good at it that I remember one time coming back from Channel 4 in the cab, and we'd done this pitch for a show, and I'd been doing the pitching, and Tim had been doing his normal, you know. I go, OK, Rich, that sounds interesting. OK. And he was so good at it that the Channel 4 commissioner rang him in the cab and said, what do you think, Tim, should we do it?

21:14Like, wow. He was like, yeah, I think maybe we should. Maybe we should. His genius thing was to almost join the side of the commissioner whenever he had a pitch. But it's a bit of theatre-selling. and what and what like you mentioned the term failure a couple of times which is whether that's you said uh all all shows fail you've spoken about in sales you're going to get knocked back far more frequently than you'll get a yes what's your relationship with failure like i find it incredibly useful failure and it's funny because i came from a the world of tv where you can have a failure and then you can pitch something the next day so actually it's quite a fast turnover industry and lots of industries are like that some industries aren't books it's harder so my relationship to failure with a book would be different because if the Thursday Murder Club had failed I spent three years doing it a failure that you've really invested in that way is is much harder than a tv failure but you know failures are useful if you can work out why it's a failure if you can work out what went wrong if you could work out how to do it differently next time you have to get that resilience because you know with all the will in the world most stuff doesn't sell and most stuff that does sell fails so it's you know you're not working in an industry that is 80 hits you know you're working in an industry that is 95 flops uh and you just have to make sure that of those five percent you've got some of them and so i've always it's always annoying yeah but you have to and you have to embrace it and sometimes failure is unfair sometimes you'd have a great show that doesn't go and should have done but sometimes success is unfair you're something will come off and you just go well it's not for me but i'm glad that i'm glad people like it so you have to be how do you embrace it because it's a very common message from our audience is failure derails me yeah failure is this this is it so if you do if you write a book this is the fascinating thing i was thinking about this the other day i try and give lots of advice to people who think of writing because it's a dream for so many people but the barrier to entry is so high because it's really really really hard to write a book so it's a really interesting test case about confidence and about following your dreams and all of those things so with books and any writer will tell you this and i'm thinking you know you're halfway through a book right so i think i was um when i was halfway through this one um i really remember i finished writing one day i thought oh god this writing is so lightweight this is just lightweight I could just blow this plot away.

23:42There's no ballast. So two ways of dealing with that if you're a writer. The first way, which is the way almost everyone does, is going, oh God, I'm so lightweight. How come everyone else is so good and I'm terrible, but my writing is just fly away and I can't do it. So tomorrow I'm not going to write. Or what you should actually do, because it's what all writers have to do, is go, okay, so that's my note to myself for tomorrow. Add some ballast to this book. make it less lightweight or that voice usually uh when you're writing a book and it goes for all sorts of things as well that voice where he goes oh but the thing about you is you're hopeless at this or your idea doesn't have that or why is anyone going to like this or this is not funny or this is you know not serious enough whatever it is that's just you giving yourself a note for tomorrow because life is not short of notes you know when you hand something in there'll be a million people give you notes but you're giving yourself the first note uh and if you can work that out if you're writing if you've got a book and you just go oh god it's hopeless it's just too complicated and you know i can't write this characters i can't write characters because this character's terrible think great well that's your job for tomorrow go back in and that's the thing to do which is the hard thing you know there's lots of fun things but go back in tomorrow take it as a note rather than a criticism and go okay i'll work on that can i ask you how you know um Um, yes.

25:03Every time you hand in a book, you think, oh, this is the one that's going to scuff on my career. Because of course, of course you think it's bad because every, every project, every, everything you ever do when you first have the idea is like perfect. Yeah. Right. You're like, oh my God, this is going to be amazing. And then, you know, such as the way of ideas, there are compromises on the way and there are production compromises and there are cost compromises and there are what the customer wants compromises. So all the way through you have to just chip off a bit here or chip off a bit there.

25:31that by the time you're ready for market, you're like, this isn't the beautiful, shiny thing that I had in my head. But it goes to market and then everyone buys it. You think, oh, because they don't see the shiny thing. And it's like a first draft of a book. Well, the first idea for a book, which is perfect. The first draft of a book, which is terrible. And then somewhere in the middle, you come up with a book. And whatever you think about it, readers will immediately tell you if it's good or not. But yeah, everything is compromise. And have you learned to ask yourself certain questions to work out if things are good or bad?

26:08Or is it an intuition? Yeah, it's an intuition. I'm very vibes-based in everything I do, really. I just think about what would people... My taste is very mainstream, so I just think, would I like it? I have my American editor. You get notes from UK and American editors. Mine come at the same time, which are always super, super useful. and my American editor will usually only write two words through the whole manuscript and they're so incredibly useful just twice just at various points so you write brackets bored you know and that's the greatest note you can have she's not saying how to fix it or anything like that and I'll look at the bit she's bored and I'll look I'll go oh yeah because that scene beforehand doesn't need to be doesn't need to be there or actually that character there the motivation changes because I cut out the bit that she did earlier and you think yeah so you're bored and that's all you need to know in a book is are you are you bored listen the right if you can either write or you can't write but the one thing you should never do is bore people so a simple note like that is incredibly useful which is so anytime she just brackets bored I sort of rub my hands with glee because I think oh great she's got this is going to make the book so much better so if you shout bored in the middle of our interview we know there's a problem yeah exactly we get the message but that's the you know the whole thing with TV and with most industries and you guys will know it is find people who are more talented than you find people who can do something you can't do and just hold on to them for dear life and hope that you do something that means they'll keep you around you know but that's the thing every time you find someone who's incredibly talented who's happy to work with you it's free money so my career advice to anyone is anytime you find someone brilliant just god hang on to them and uh and hope they want you around and when you think back to your brother in a band in the 90s you're fresh out of uni yeah being around it what what kind of lessons did you learn from him because he was at the at the point of brit pop and yeah yeah he really was i mean it was it was exciting i learned we're very different human beings because i'm very introvert uh and he is not i learned some cautionary tales from him but we are very different human beings my brother is an artist and i'm a i'm i'm a entertainer you know that's what and both of those are perfectly valid i just love as many people as possible to like something and i like them to like it as much as possible and if they're watching it to keep watching and if they're reading it to keep turning the pages that's the thing that i like and my brother likes to create something that's never been seen before and to do something and introduce something to the world that is unusual and uh you know that no one else would have been able to do that's what he loves it's what he loves in his music what he loves in his writing as well so we're very very different human beings in that regard um but i do you know i genuinely and i know it sounds stupid that thing of what's the golden seed what did you learn from your brother every single bit of it was in me from the first moment every single bit of it which is oh my god i'd love to just be somewhere in this conversation i don't want to put my face forward i don't want to sort of be exposed i don't want to be on stage but i just want to be in the middle of culture because I grew up with it and you grew up with the television and the music charts and books and all this stuff that's incredible world and there's something about it that for me I just it was so seductive and and and I just wanted to be involved and I didn't know that I could be and I ended up being involved but you know the key is I'm involved by doing stuff that I love and making stuff that I would consume myself and that that it seems thus far it seems to have worked but i think there's a fascinating bit of it around that that that you so whether you were deliberately immunized from it whether it was your mom's influence or you just didn't spot it that nobody told you you couldn't do it nobody was trying to shoot down those dreams and ambitions yeah i i think that's true because you know at school you know i i wasn't very good i can't play musical instrument i can't do languages you know all that kind of stuff you know i never I did like an after school piano class or French class.

30:13They just didn't exist when I was growing up. So I was never made to do anything. And I think my mum understood that if I was watching TV, so long as I was watching it actively, which I clearly was, and that was okay. You get parents now with kids when they say, oh my God, they spend all their time playing video games or something. You think, well, how do you mean? Do you mean like slack-jawed? Or do you mean they're excited by what's happening and the next one is coming out and they know who makes it and they understand why it's different to the previous game and they understand who's selling what to who.

30:44If they get all of that stuff, then let them play because they're going to know something that's going to be incredibly commercially useful in 10 years' time. And my mum got that, that's for sure. She understood, because she was a primary school teacher, she understood that by and large, if a kid is not interested in something, it's not going to end up being their career. There's a reason why Tiger Woods and Venus and Serena were prodigies and went on to do what they did, which is from the second they started being trained, they enjoyed it. So, you know, you've got to, if your kid likes something, whether it's science, languages, you know, musicianship, television, video games, just let them do it.

31:25We spend our lives kind of, people pay for education for their kids and all this kind of stuff to try and get the, you know, 12 GCSEs instead of 10. That one gives a toss if you've got 12 GCSEs. Whereas if they're playing video games and they understand what it is, that's the career they're going to do. They're not going to do what, you know, Italian. It's not just not they're not going to be a professional cellist. OK, so instead of sending them to cello lessons, let them play Call of Duty. That's my message to parents. But it's also about living with intention, isn't it? I just went on holiday to Crete, and I actually was deeply depressed by the amount of parents at dinner with both kids on screens, but not just that, headphones on as well, but just like a blank expression.

32:10No communication with the siblings or the parents or anything. And on the beach, our kids were desperate to play Roblox, and we let them have an hour a day playing Roblox under an umbrella, but they were talking, laughing, chasing each other, coming up with plans, hiding from each other. And Harriet was like, I hate them being on screens. And I made exactly this point to her, but look at how they're being on a screen. Exactly that. Is it adding to their understanding of the world? Is it adding to their happiness? Is it adding to their sociability? Because we didn't grow up with it. We're obsessed with this thing of screens.

32:45And you want to go, yeah, we didn't grow up with every single bit of information in the world on a screen and incredible entertainment on the screen all the time. I mean, this is extraordinary. How is this not going to be different to how we grew up when we're running through the woods? You think, I mean, come on. As an introverted kid, if I'd had an iPad, I'd have been so happy. I'd have absolutely loved it. And loads of kids don't want to talk. They're not great at talking. Obviously, those kids make sure they do a bit. But sometimes just let them be who they are and let them do the thing that they want to do.

33:14And, yeah, that endless thing of there's a character in this called Gary Goff who's a criminal. and his, as a cop goes around and says, your daughter's been bullying, you know, this girl at your school. And he goes, you know what? I'd rather she was bullying someone than on her bloody screen all day. And it's that, they're like kind of the great bogeyman, this incredible bit of entertainment and knowledge thing that's in our hands. And if you use them well, I mean, why would you not use that for an hour a day to do something interesting and entertaining and sociable? It's crazy. Can you talk to us about the power of being an introvert?

33:56Yeah. Honestly, when I say I'm an introvert, I do see the irony of it because I'm on a podcast talking about being an introvert. So I get it. I do get it. And I'm on television talking about being an introvert. But I definitively am. I'm happier at home. That's the thing that I like. I like being in the small groups of people, but the second I'm in a new place, I'm very, very uncomfortable. If you asked me if I wanted to go somewhere new, I would say no. So the first thing I would ever ask if you're going to go anywhere is how do we get home? That's the first thing I want to know. I just, I'm very happy in my own company or in the company of the people that I love the most and just sitting there.

34:33So I am an introvert. I, you know, for me, it's that blank piece of paper thing, which is I'm very, very, very, very happy if it's just me and a blank piece of paper and a pen. Because I've got the worlds are inside my head. and I can create things I want to create. And for me, my creativity comes from my introversion, I think. So it's fine being an extrovert. Again, we start to say that extroverts are weird. You think that's fine as well. It's fine to be both. We used to kind of slag off introverts and now we're slagging off extroverts. You think that we're all something. So it's fine. I like it.

35:12I like spending time on my own head. I like spectating rather than participating. that's the thing I like which I think is very very useful for my creativity for some people's creativity being in the in the you know thicker things is important but for me creativity always comes from observing everything just having those all those bubbles of thought around your head something you just heard something you just watched someone you just met all these different things just the turn of phrase you heard just looking through a window and seeing something you didn't expect to see they're all in little bubbles and then suddenly two of those bubbles will burst into each other and that's an idea and that's creativity and that's just two things that you had noticed come together in a way that someone hadn't put them together before and that's it you start writing you start thinking of the idea you start going oh yeah what would happen if but to do that which is why i think introversion is useful you know the more bubbles you've got the better the more things that you have noticed the more things that just you picked up on or spotted somewhere that you've got going around your head the more likely you are that two of them bump into each other sometimes three of them bump into each other and then you've got a hit well i mean as you're saying it there is i i said to you off air that i've loved your thursday murder club series and i think one of the things i've enjoyed is the lovely turn of phrases that you have the way you describe a certain conversation that the characters might have yeah and so i can see that that's your ability to observe how do we all become better at observing and listening huh that's um that's hard because i'm very visually impaired so i don't really see the things very well and i'm an introvert honestly the key is being interested that's the real key and if you're not interested in the world that's also okay because you're just going to do stuff and that's fine but if you want to create things if you want to create something new something unusual you you'd better be interested in a lot of things because things you create usually it's because you've seen something that's similar that didn't quite work or you've seen something you loved and you want to emulate it.

37:12So it's just finding those new things and then linking a couple of them together. People are really good at hating the things about them that are different. So it'd be easy for you to, and maybe you do, to hate the fact that you're tall, to hate the fact that you're visually impaired, to hate the fact that you're an introvert. But actually when we sit and have a conversation like this, it's pretty easy to connect the dots and think that the reason why you're sitting here in part and you're a great author, a TV presenter, TV producer, had the creative head, there will be a large amount of that, down to the fact that you're visually impaired and you're an introvert and you're not happy with certain elements of your physique.

37:51Yeah, I think so. I think there's truth in that. I think, well, listen, we're all capable of creativity. We're all capable of creating things. I think that the stuff about you that is wrong, I think, is the thing that gives you empathy. And that's the stuff where the things that you create have a kindness hopefully you know that comes from understanding the differences in people and understanding that other people feel the way you feel but about their um differences so you know i think i think it's i think that's good i think i think being different gives you empathy but by the way and you know the longer you live you everyone feels different everyone no one for just everybody does whatever it is you walk down the street you see someone who to all intents and purposes culturally would be perfect and you know they go home and something's up and they think why am i weird why am i not like anybody else right everyone has it in a way mine's easier i'm six foot seven and i can't see at least mine is kind of right out there you know it's it's it's easy to spot but everybody feels it you know everybody and there's almost more pressure on people who sort of look like they have the perfect life but then go home and just go yeah but people don't know but every you know we're all flawed we all none of us live up to the thing that we think we should be and the things that we're naturally good at we dismiss because we think well yeah but of course i can do that and the things that we're bad at are the things that we obsess about because you think whatever people can do it and i can't do it and you think you know you need you need you need to get that balance i always like that quote that we judge other people's highlights real and we judge our blooper real you know we're looking at what other people are good and we're looking at what we're bad at.

39:26And you just, you don't need to. Find the thing that you're good at and cling on to somebody else who's good at something else. What would you say though to people who really struggle to embrace their flaws or the things that they feel are flaws? Yeah, I would say that join the club. I would say that. I would say, you know, it's funny. So I feel uncomfortable being tall, right? Or being very tall, being six foot seven. And there's no hiding away from it. You're always on display. you know i always describe myself as a reluctant lighthouse and my son is very tall he's not not as tall as me but at one point he looked like he was going to be uh and i said to him and it's advice i don't take i said you've got two choices when you walk in a room right it's either who's that tall guy or it's who's that tall guy who looks really uncomfortable about being tall i said you do not have a third option which is who's that short guy or who's that normal height guy it's it it doesn't exist and that goes for any floors that you have the things you do to cover them up actually are the things if you think you're weird it's not the floor that makes you weird it's the things you do to cover up that floor because actually people are very accepting of whatever it is about you and no one minds i'm tall you know that's my issue you know some idiots do but idiots mind if you're different in any way and you know you can't be ruled by them but by and large it's the things that you do when you go i wish i was like this or i need to hide the fact that this is wrong with me i need to hide the fact that this is what i think and then you start behaving in ways that people go you know when you meet somebody that's a bit off what's up with that person and always always always it's because they're hiding the thing that either they're embarrassed about or that causes them pain and once you understand that about human beings first you see human beings in the other way but also you have to apply it to your self which is listen we're all weirdos and probably better that we just you know admit to it And it's amazing how accepting people are the second you become your true self, right?

41:21And has this sense of acceptance always been with you, Rob? Is it something that you've learned in your later years? Incredibly hard one. But that's the problem. You can't take, you know, and this is, you can give advice all you like, but until you live it, you don't really. That's the same with any therapy, isn't it? But, you know, you can read a self-help book and go, oh, yeah, that's me. And you can remember it for a couple of days. And actually, it runs out and the sounds kind of run away. the second that you're sort of led towards a realization or led towards an understanding of who you are and you go on a really long journey and you are the one who makes that final leap because oh do you mean that x that stays with you forever and ever and ever and that's what good therapy is and i'm glad there are sites now where you can find therapy you know in a cheaper way and in a sort of more user-friendly way because that's the only way you ever change is always when you learn something yourself rather than you are told something we know that with kids we know that with everything you know you have to learn yourself and once you learn yourself you still mess up and you know you've still got that shame and that pain but at least every time in your head two things that happen when you feel that pain and you feel that shame one you can go into that defensive behavior you've always done which is why people think you're weird or two you can go uh i'm about to go into that defensive behavior i always do i won't do that today and you know so the the feelings are exactly the same but your actions are different which is you accept you're conscious of what it is that's up with you and you do something about it would you be able to share with us the moment you had the realization i mean after like a like years of expensive therapy yeah that's the problem yeah but what was the moment like what was the thought um well here's my very very very first and listen it's it's a well-worn phrase but it's but it's absolutely true my very very first um thing of therapy and i went into therapy thinking what everyone thinks is uh you won't crack this mate you won't come across anything like this you'll find i have problems you have not heard before or i have them in a shape you haven't quite seen before and the truth is we're all roughly the same you know we are and they you know therapists have seen all of it before and you know i was justifying why i was how i was and you know the things that made me unhappy but you know this is how i am and blah blah blah and i'd explain away you know why i behaved in the way i behaved and the therapist just said right at the end again we've heard it before how's that working out for you and you go oh what oh since you asked working it was working out really badly which is why i'm here and then you go okay i got it and like a therapist like a personal trainer which is okay i'm in your hands i will do whatever you need to do i will do the reps you tell me to do i'll do the exercises you tell me to do and then one day you start going to the gym without the personal trainer and you do the things that they said and then you think oh i'm actually going to try that machine as well and because you built up your core from the exercises they told you suddenly you can do something else then you get back to the personal training they introduce a few more things then next time you're in the gym you think oh i'm gonna i'm gonna have go at that one and it's that's what therapy is it's building up those muscles which atrophy because when we hide away which people do we we're not exercising our real muscles are we we're just we're just doing this this hiding mechanism

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46:47and can you share with us any any tips or techniques that your therapists work with you on that our listeners or viewers can maybe consider adopting yeah honestly i think the key thing is is being conscious of um when you are hiding away so shame i think is is the biggest thing so however you experience it, whatever that means to you, the thing where you go, I don't want people to know this about me, or when this comes up, I get embarrassed, I want to run, I'm going to hide this part of who I am, okay, which is shame. And there's no way through shame other than you have to become conscious of it.

47:26That's the first thing. So every time it happens, you go, ah, that's interesting. Yeah, that is a pattern. Actually, you said that I do that. And yeah, I buy that. You still do it at that point. But it happens enough times that you kind of go, oh, okay, I could actually probably not do that this time. So what I think it is, answer the question, am I weird? Yes, you're weird. Definitively, you definitely are weird. No getting away from that. Why am I weird? And you think, oh, it's because I've got this thing about me that no one could ever know. No, that's not why you're weird. That's who you are.

48:03why you're weird is because you're doing everything you can do to hide it which means you avoid certain situations you avoid certain conversations you avoid certain behaviors that's why you're weird and that's the thing that people are picking up on is you hiding it and the second you can just get inside that relationship between why you think you're weird and the fact that you covering up that means you're weird the second you can kind of start to unpick that that's a that's a journey that's well worth going on, I would say. And it's still, whatever it is about you, it's still embarrassing. You're going to live with this stuff forever, whatever it is that you have.

48:41But I mean, we're not here for long. Living through shame just doesn't, it's just, it's not worth, honestly, the other side of it, the other side of shame, even if it feels exposing or embarrassing, it is much more fun and your life will be much happier and much more successful, I think. what was causing your shame lots of things the height uh i you know i would overeat so i'd have you know like a like like food addiction issues which is like sort of mortifying especially for a man and you know stuff like that that's kind of mortifying um and of course it comes from somewhere it comes from childhood pain and this that doesn't really matter where it comes from you know the behavior you use to cover up your pain is the the thing where you suddenly go oh my god you know just no one's like me i'm so weird it's absolutely mental and you think of course you're not all we're trying to do all the time is protect ourselves right it's quite hard to live it's quite painful to live as a human being isn't it when you think about it waking up every morning there's billions of people there's a lot going on you've got people to look after someone stuff people want stuff from you there's not money for something um 10 different people need you to be 10 different things it's our brains are quite small you know we're not amazingly great at kind of working out what's going on around us.

49:57So it's hard to be a human being, you know, and we all have protective measures that we put in place. And if we've gone through pain, we have further protective measures. And, you know, whatever that behaviour is, and you see it in famous, you know, see it in politicians all the time. You know, we had a prime minister recently that has every addiction going. You can see he had every addiction going. You see he was running from pain and he chooses to act out by sort of going, actually, I don't care about anything in the world and I'm going to be, you know, I'm a joker and, you know, I'm going to cause trouble because he needed chaos, whoever this Prime Minister was.

50:35He needed chaos to hide his unhappiness. And, you know, so some people, when there's unhappiness, they hide, certainly what I did and I think most people do. Some people, if there's unhappiness, cause absolute chaos. And people will know this from relationships they've had. If somebody's causing chaos, right, It's not because there is chaos. It's because you can hide in chaos. If you are having a row where someone is causing chaos, then you're not having a row. You're literally, they're avoiding every bit of it. If they're just ramping up, ramping up, ramping up, causing drama, drama, drama, it's because they don't want to play on the real playing field.

51:14You look at some of the people running the world at the moment, they constantly need chaos. They constantly need argument. they constantly need things to be shifting because it means they can't sit still and if they can't sit still they can't ever be caught and if they can't ever be caught they can't ever have to look at themselves and so that's that's my take on the ways that you can hide from what causes you pain can i ask you about your coping strategies though because it sounds like the eating disorder was a coping strategy in some way yeah what did you learn about managing that and have you replaced stick with anything else yeah i think i think food is is is particularly tricky i mean it's alcohol and drugs we know what the solution is which is complete abstinence there's not i mean there's you know it's incredibly painful process and very very difficult process but that's that's the rule you know that's what you have to do and food you know you need food in the same way you need love and so those are harder things to um to deal with you know it's just it's it's sort of having rules but anyone who's an addict in any way again that's when i talk about chaos and i talk about how difficult it is to be a human being i know that those behaviors are ridiculous right so i i know that it doesn't make any sense that you would overeat or you would you know eat dull pain what you know whatever it is whatever sets you off and you think well well i do that and i'm a reasonably intelligent you know together human being and so everyone's doing stuff like that all the time and that's because everyone's just trying to get through the day and so i think if you have any sort of addictive behaviors you do start to understand that everybody's struggling and everyone's battling and your behavior is so stupid you can't really judge other people for behaving in ways that are unusual or you know seem counterintuitive because we're all doing something you look at lots of the anger in this country at the moment you look at i look at a lot of the online stuff and people get very angry with trolls and stuff like that and you think again these people aren't evil they're just this is the thing that they have to do because the alternative is there isn't an alternative the alternative is peace and quiet the alternative is sitting with themselves and they're not capable of doing it they constantly have to be trying to get a reaction trying to provoke because then they don't have to just sit by themselves you know and never underestimate how much happens because people don't want to just sit with their own thoughts and if you're a troll you can you can easily spend the whole day getting a reaction from people you know writing to 50 different people 50 different times and somebody will pick that pick up the bait and that's it that's another day done where you haven't had to sit and look in the mirror and so i kind of see where these behaviors come from and i never think it comes from evil i think it comes from unhappiness yeah because the reason i ask like jake and i were both talking before we sat down with you and i was looking at your prodigious output and thinking this guy's a workaholic and but from a selfish point we were like we think we are so we were actually coming to you for some kind of advice no i'm really not i i work very very i work smart that's for sure i like to get absolute maximum output from from from the input that i put in but no I'm I'm I have a lot of downtime I can't the greatest compliment anyone can pay me again you get it online is well you've got too much time on your hands you think oh my god yes please to have too much time you're a procrastinator uh yeah I mean certainly if I can if I can do anything other than write I definitely do that so I try and write two hours a day but I'll leave it as long as I possibly can if there's anything else I can do I definitely do that but when I'm working and this is the the good thing it is non-stop there's no then i'm not progressing i'm not looking at the internet i'm i'm also not spending hours researching and stuff i'm literally writing writing writing and that's my brain works in very very short bursts and these are a very very long break in between so i don't think i'm a workaholic i love work and i love the things that you know that that i've been able to do i love that but i don't need to be doing it a day where I'm not working, I'm much happier.

55:19So you guys are workaholics. Well, I thought I was... I am. Oh, yeah. Yeah, my wife uses that. But why? Yeah, well, again, that's what exploring, yeah. But you like it. The inability to sit in a room quietly. Yeah. I like it when... So if I'm writing, I like the purpose of writing. I like preparing for this. I like reading your book. So the ability of not doing something without a purpose. Is it a bad thing to constantly be thinking and on the go and planning? I don't know. I think it slightly is. Well, listen, it depends. There are addictions which are healthier. Like exercise is a good addiction, right?

55:55Working in a job that is meaningful is a good addiction. If you're going to have an addiction, it kind of makes sense. But, you know, there's sometimes you've got to give yourself an hour. And people say, I'm not going to meditate and completely clear my brain. The thing that people never do is say, no, I'm going to really focusfully think about myself for an hour. That's the thing I'm actually going to do i'm actually going to think about who i am do you do that and no but therapy does that so therapy that's that's the point of it you could just say oh great in the same way that you know going to personal training you think great i can do that for an hour going to therapy forces you to talk to somebody who you know doesn't have any particular you know stake in in who you are forces you to talk talk about yourself uh and that idea that i just need to clear my mind completely is by the way healthy and i do think that's good but the one thing we never do talk about is no i need an hour no one else is around and they're just gonna think about who i am and think about try and think about it in a non-critical way because lots of us can sit around and think for half an hour the thing we said at the party last night and oh my god what are they gonna say about that and that was so awful i did that and you know that we find very easy but just that thing of who am i what is it that i want how am i working towards those things how am i looking after the people who love me how am i looking after myself and that's a you know that kind of focused thought about yourself.

57:14Isn't it interesting that we talk so much now about therapy? It's easy to kid ourselves that we have a better relationship with therapy and counsellors and therapists than ever before, right? But I'm not sure actually that we do. I think we talk about it more. But we're all doing Baja salts and ice baths and saunas and LED face masks and kefir and gut health. How many people are actually doing all that and having just one hour a week where they go and speak to someone? well again it's it's it's very easy to you know read books and do you know have massages and think i'm looking after my mental health and you think yeah i mean i guess you are but you know there's a there's a better way of doing it listen it's better than not doing it if it makes you happy that's absolutely great but yeah you're right again some of that is evasive behavior as well which i'm getting as close as i can to therapy without actually doing therapy which by the way that's what happens in therapy all the time you get as close as you can to a particular revelation about yourself or confronting yourself about a particular behaviour, you think I'm going to go right up close to the fence but I'm definitely not going to jump it and then sort of four weeks later you realise that oh you jumped it two weeks ago because your therapist knows what they're doing but we all just absolutely go as close as we can but I'm not actually going to change my behaviour How often do you see a therapist?

58:34Now not at all but I did for like 15 years Is that a good thing? Yeah, I think it's, you know, I feel armed by the things that he gave me. And certainly if there were a crisis, I would go back immediately. Can we talk about your writing? Yeah. Yeah. You say you work two hours a day. I mean, that sounds like a dream for a start. Yes. So how do you make sure that the two hours that you put into your writing every day is a really elite, high performance two hours? It's, I mean, some people can write eight hours a day. I couldn't do it. After two hours, I'm done. My brain is absolutely out. And we all have different brains.

59:14I'm very goal-oriented. I'm word count-oriented. The way I write, I try and write a chapter a day. I have shortish chapters, 1 ,500 words, something like that, which I find fun to read as well. If I'm reading books, I like short chapters. And so I'm super goal-oriented, which is I'll go upstairs and I will write a chapter, and then that will be done. And I find that easy. and I know that the book is 90 ,000 words. My book's around 90 ,000. So I know I can obsessively keep up with the word count and know where I am and all of that kind of stuff. But it is, I'm not coming downstairs until I finished a chapter, but the chapter's not going to be 10 ,000 words.

59:52So it's not going to, you know, it's, I know that that's, I never thought I'm going to spend two hours. I go upstairs, I write a chapter and it turns out that that roughly takes me around two hours. Sometimes it's a little bit less. Sometimes it's a little bit more, but I won't come downstairs until that chapter is done. So that's how I get through that. And writing, you have to have something psychological to get you through it, otherwise it would drive you insane. And what's the hardest part? The hardest part is that it takes a really, really long time. It's like, you know, I've spent my life on panel shows and things like that and talking where it's the first thing that comes in your head is always the thing.

1:00:28It's essentially like the fast twitch muscle fibres of intellect of intellect to the thing that, you know, I can, I can go on the B of bang if you, if you need a gag, right? So I've got speed of thought. I don't have depth of thought. Uh, and suddenly you do, suddenly I'm a sprinter who's doing a marathon. Uh, and it's, and I love it and I love the discipline of it and I love, you know, what, what it means, but it's just, it's, it can be a real slog. It's a year of work, uh, for someone who's used to, you know, being able to do something in five seconds and you know it exists on day forever uh so it's a year of work um i find some writers plan out everything they plan their whole story they plan their whole plot and that i can't do because again it doesn't suit my mindset i need to be constantly surprised and constantly entertained and so i tend to let the story kind of develop as it goes on do you have an do you have an ending though before you begin i mean sometimes i mean this i've just started writing the fifth Thursday Murder Club book, which would be out 2025.

1:01:30And no, I definitely don't have an ending. I have a world that I want to be in. That's for sure. I have a beginning, but I've read enough books and I've written enough books now that I know it will come. You know, I always, my books always, always, always start with character. Always, always, always. Who are the characters? Bring them in, get them to talk to each other, start to care about the world. And then there's a million plots out there. If anyone is sitting at home writing people worry all the time about plot but what's my plot and your plots out there there's a million crime plots you worry about your characters that's the thing to worry about because that's why people read people don't read because that because they you know because of the intricacies of the plot they read because they're enjoying spending time in the company of the characters who are on the page and then they really care what happens to them so yeah i i you can only write the way your brain works and my brain i have very very low attention span so i write short chapters I'm fascinated with people and so I write from different perspectives all the time and I need constant novelty and so I don't plan ahead too much, you know, because I want to be constantly surprised and so that's how I write but you write how your brain Is it a cool feeling when your brain just comes up with something and you're like, oh I can't believe you just did that Yeah, it's really great, I love it It's silly things I was, funny enough I was doing an interview the other day with Lee Child who writes all the Jack Reacher novels.

1:02:53I love Jack Reacher and I love his novels. And I was saying, because you feed a fraud as a writer if you don't plan, but Lee Child doesn't plan either and Ian Rankin doesn't plan. So lots of my favourite novels. And I was saying, I was writing a chapter and I said, I thought, is this all right to say to Lee Child? And I said, I got to the end of this chapter today, Lee, and I wrote this last line of the chapter. I was like, oh my god but what's going to happen now and of course i didn't know what's going to happen now but as a as a writer i'm like oh and he goes oh my god yeah i do that all the time he said that's the dream and then you just leave it and then think about what might happen now because if you're thinking that the reader's thinking that yeah and so that's what that's the thing i love about writing is just i've set myself a little challenge there of you just go i mean how is that gonna pay off wow that's crazy so can i say though because like the bit that strikes me in your books is like in each of the books i've read there's at least two there's two lines that you'll use where i'll go fucking hell that's profound like like i'll give you the example where you write in the second thursday murder club where you talk about some people are the weather some people are the weather forecasters yeah and i was like i love that i love that concept yeah where does that come from is that just intuitive or are you looking to weave that kind of it's all it's it's all i think of it as i go along and then if but if i got a line like that which which i find very interesting because it's true and that's that chaos and and and hiding away things some people are the weather some people are constantly thinking about what's gonna happen i think i write it in context of two people are going on a city break uh and one person's like no let's just turn up and you know go we'll just do whatever we want and the other person's like no i'm literally going to plan every single bit of Sounds like most marriages, doesn't it?

1:04:43But also, but their marriage works because the person who's planning doesn't tell the other person that they planned it, but they know exactly the walk they're going to do just to make sure their husband does see this and does see that and the things that she knows she wants him to see. But yeah, that idea of people being weather and weather forecasts, that's just if you write interesting characters, then that stuff just comes out naturally because there are oppositions in those characters and that makes you think about yourself and different relationships. And so, yeah, I love being able to write.

1:05:09I mean, I've got a psychiatrist as one of my characters in the Thursday Murder Club, which is cheating, really. But it's because he's allowed to say profound things. But no, I love it when, you know, wisdom comes from different areas. But there's some really interesting research by a psychologist called Keith Oakley. I don't know if you're familiar with this, Richard, about that he's researched it and said that when you read fiction, it increases our empathy skills, our range of thinking, and just our ability to be creative. And I think for people that are not aware of it, you're writing about four pensioners in a retirement home, aren't you?

1:05:42And I'm interested in where does your ability to be able to write for four very disparate different characters like that come from? Yeah, I think, A, interested in people. B, I come from a big working-class family, and I now find myself very, very firmly in the middle class. So you come across a lot of different people, and you see the things that are similar, and you see the things that are different. And most people are the same, but most people's circumstances are definitely not the same. So I think a lot about people and about the world, and I think about how I love unlikely friendships, and I love friendships across divides and all of that stuff.

1:06:17And in terms of writing older characters, that's just, for me, there's instant, you know, you get that instant thing of we're aware of the lives that they've lived and the extraordinary things that have happened, and we're aware now they're being overlooked and they're made to be slightly invisible. so they're underdogs from the beginning and I love an underdog and so you know I just try and find as many disparate places for people to come from and then I throw them together and have them talk to each other and that's stuff just comes up but there's all yeah bits of my head I suppose able to you know the childhood me and how I was brought up talking to the me now you know where people go down the groucho and stuff like that and showbiz me talking to me sitting at home and watch the snooker me and you just you just all of those conversations are going on i guess but they're they're through characters and you know so i don't even think i try and you've got to i try and keep myself out of the way of those characters as much as i can but i i have to accept at some point that yeah they are all me somewhere and have you i'll tell you a funny effect reading those books i've had on me that i didn't tell my wife about it last week was that Because you're reading about people coming towards the end of their life and work that, like, you talk about Elizabeth, who at one stage was working for the spy services.

1:07:34No spoiler alerts. No. But at that time, her role was critical, and now she's almost redundant. And it made me feel a little bit funny about, oh, this really matters. Because in 20 years' time, nobody will give a shit anyway. And that's been the effect on me. I don't know if you've had a... Yeah, I like that because it's perspective, isn't it? And you have to understand what does matter, which is friendship and it's kindness and it's so trite to say and it's so kind of, you know, phrase on a tea towel, but it just happens to be true, which is that we're not here to do anything particular. so we might as well look after each other and you know some people some people are incapable of empathy right that's absolutely fine that's that's that's how they're built but those people who are capable of empathy um you know just try and use it as much as you can i think and yeah it's it's i like the fact that it's about friendship i like the fact that it's about understanding that you know you must talk a lot on this podcast about um you talk a lot on this podcast about Ambition, of course you do, and what drives you and all of that kind of stuff.

1:08:40And what drives you in your 20s and 30s and 40s is real. Of course it's real, but it's also not real. Because actually you reach the end of your life and you go, oh, actually that wasn't the thing that I was looking for. You know, your 20s, 30s, 40s are proving yourself, right? You're proving yourself to people who doubted you. You are dealing with whatever chip you've got on your shoulder. you are trying to show your younger self that you were capable of something you didn't think you were capable of that's your rocket fuel uh and when you're older of course it's it's waking up in the morning wanting to be happy and it's waking up and is there somebody who cares that i'm here uh and it's waking up and thinking is the world a better place today than it was yesterday it's those things and that's fun to write because the other stuff is fine and everyone has everyone's day-to-day things especially when you just have you know kids or you've got parents who are ill or anything like that, there's a lot going on.

1:09:35There's a lot of things that kind of, you know, take up your time and take up your energies. And, yeah, there comes a point in life where I think you can just slightly be a bit more serene about what the world is and about what human beings are. And so writing about both of those worlds is a real gift for me. Are you the happiest you've ever been? Yeah, I think so. I've always been. I'm quite a content human being, again, which I think comes from introversion because I don't, you know, there's certain members of my family who always need to be out doing things, seeing people, which is that extrovert thing.

1:10:09And again, that's not running from anything. That's just they need constant stimulation. And I'm happy at home with my wife and the cats and the snooker. And yeah, so I find contentment very easy. Time for some quickfire questions to wrap up. Okay, great. I'm not great on quickfire questions because I tend to wrap it on, but let's see let's do it the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you really should buy into yeah um don't listen to your phone out loud on public transport yeah that's good one that's my absolute number one where's that come from becoming ever more popular but what has that come from i mean it's weird that that's i think so i genuinely don't get it anyway that uh i would say um make sure other people are happy before you're happy and that makes you happy i think because that's a selfish one really but it sounds like it's not a selfish one so you sound like a really decent human being uh if you do that uh and always tip always tip as much as you possibly can not don't tip more than you can afford but if you've got more money than the person serving you make sure you tip and tip well i like that but why because we're all struggling through life and if you've got money you have to accept that a lot of it was luck you know everyone worked everyone who's got money worked hard but you know what everyone who didn't have money worked hard as well and there's a bit of luck involved if you have a bit of luck then pass some of it along what's your greatest strength and your biggest weakness greatest strength i would say is um i'm fairly level-headed about about the world i don't panic too much about stuff however bad stuff gets or however good stuff gets i'm quite good at um you know uh it's the kipling thing of you know treating triumph and disaster as as imposters i think i'm i think i'm quite good at that um my biggest weakness would be because of the way my brain works i get so impatient if like a computer program won't load or if suddenly you know sky tv goes off or something like that i just i just i can't that i'm so deeply impatient with anything technical anything that involves process anything that has you know is more complicated than me just saying something to somebody i absolutely can't handle anything like that what advice would you give to a teenage Richard just starting out?

1:12:23I would say just listen you've got the right idea I would say career-wise you've got the right idea life-wise oh my god you've got the wrong idea but listen there's only one way of finding that out and that's living through it. What's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why? My grandfather who's a police officer who I loved very very dearly gave me a piece of advice and it's incredibly useful for business I think and Anyone who's in business will be able to say whether they think it's right or not. My grandfather said, if you're ever called to a fight in a pub, make sure you're second through the door.

1:12:59And that is creatively, if you know that the first mover in pretty much any industry loses their shirt and the second mover, everyone goes, oh, my God, you're a genius. What, electric cars? That's amazing. But, you know, the first person to do it lost billions and billions and billions. So being second through the door is often you're the hero. The first person through the door gets the absolute crap kicked out of them. And then, you know, you wade in and you can be the hero. And the final question, the thing you'd like to leave ringing in the ears of our audience, your one golden rule for a high-performance life.

1:13:32I would say, yeah, listen, just try and find your true north, is what I'd say. Try and live in good faith. And you know, you know the difference already. Brilliant. Thank you so much.

1:13:49Damien. Jake. So what did we think of that conversation? I mean, I actually really loved watching you loving having a conversation with a fellow author about his process of writing. I'm always intrigued about how people write, especially creative fiction writers like Richard. So I loved it. I loved understanding the discipline of being comfortable with the empty page at the start of it, just letting it flow, knowing when to stop, understanding that doubt you get, the times where you think I'm a fraud, I can't do this, I'm useless and knowing that you just have to see it as your first note to yourself.

1:14:25I thought that was invaluable, not just for writing the book, just for life in general for when we all have that in a doubt. What did you like about it? I like the fact that he embraces his flaws and encourages us to embrace our flaws. I think that sometimes, you know how we get lumped in with some of those other shows that are all about optimisation and having to constantly find hacks or be the best you can and actually that's not really what this show is about often what this show is about is people doing well in spite of not having all the answers not doing well because they've got all the answers and actually if you put Richard Osman down on paper and said works two hours a day huge procrastinator gets easily distracted has a short attention span he says he's not sort of naturally overly industrious yet despite all of those things he still has a great TV career a presenting career, a book writing career.

1:15:19And I love that. And I think that sometimes for him to sit on this show and say, we're all flawed, we all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, we've all got issues, we're all weird, was his phrase, I think it's really important, actually. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and the stuff around shame, I think shame is probably one of the most toxic emotions people can feel, whatever it is, whether it's shame of how we look or something we've done or said in the past. And I think being willing to lean into that and explore what it means because the only way you can get through it is to go through it.

1:15:49As he said, I think that's really valuable. And I think my final thing is I would encourage anyone who's not a leader but an observer to realise that's exactly what he is. Like, he openly says he's an introvert. He's kind of stood on the sidelines. He's observed the world, but through a lens of empathy, understanding, care and compassion. And that's really what he's built his career on. So you don't have to be a tub-thumping, you know, macho leader that doesn't care for people's feelings to be successful in life. You can be like Richard and you can be incredibly successful. And the greatest thing I felt was that he does seem really happy.

1:16:27He seems in a good place. Yeah, definitely. I think I'd leave people with the idea of, to quote one of his own characters from the Thursday Murder Club, which is, be a weather forecaster rather than just be the weather. Thanks, mate. Thank you, mate.

1:16:43and that's it for today's conversation please if you can just hit the follow button honestly for you to subscribe to high performance wherever and however you enjoy it allows us to grow the channel and we can invite even more incredible people like richard to come in and share his story and i want to give you something back so therefore we've agreed with richard to offer you an exclusive 30 minute clip of his brand new audiobook we solve murders if you want to hear it right now then it's available on the High Performance app. You can either head to the App Store or just click the link in the description.

1:17:14But from myself, Damien, and the whole team, thank you so much for continuing to support High Performance. Remain humble, curious, and empathetic, and we'll see you very soon. And before we go, here's a little teaser of Richard's brand new book, We Solve Murders. You can hear 30 minutes of it on the High Performance app.

1:17:35It had finally happened. Andrew Fairbanks had always known he would be famous one day, and that day, a quiet, sunny Tuesday in early August, had at last arrived. The years of Instagram fitness videos had given him a following, sure, but nothing like this. This was insane. There had been an on-off relationship with a minor pop singer, which had seen his picture in the papers from time to time, but not on the front pages like today. The notoriety Andrew Fairbanks had chased for so long was finally his. His name on lips around the world, trending on social media. That selfie on the yacht was everywhere.

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