Rob Edwards (Luton Manager): Premier League Promotion, Gaining Perspective and Bouncing Back (E276)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. It just looked so much more serious. He's brave. He's the bravest person I know. He's a fighter. And I wanted us to embody what he is. It just fuels the fire to want to get back there. That is Luton manager Rob Edwards. This is High Performance, the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside our expert Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, the struggles, and successes of our guests, allowing us all to find our own version of high performance. And as you're about to hear, sometimes something happens in life that really puts things in perspective.

1:07Our guest Rob was managing Luton Town in the Premier League when their captain, Tom Lockyer, collapsed on the pitch with a cardiac arrest. It's a moving conversation about the power of teamship, sport and optimism. Rob Edwards comes next.

1:28Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I think you know how these conversations normally begin. What do you believe high performance to be, Rob? I think maximising potential. Trying to drag every ounce of whatever it is out of every person and along the way having fun with it. I think that's really important to enjoy what we're doing. We're really lucky and privileged to be working in the sport that we are. Just giving people the opportunity and the platform to go and be the best they can be. love that and I think what's really interesting is that your job is to get the best out of people we talk so often about the physical demands on a football player I'm really interested to explore with you the mental demands on a on a manager you need good people around you because you we don't do it on our own I've got great people that that work with me that I'm allowed that I can dump stuff on talk to ask questions and and allow them to go and crack on with their jobs as well that hopefully frees me up to try and be the best I can be in what I need to do.

2:30We're certainly not on our own with this. It's just not possible in a day with the demands and the questions you get in and the scrutiny and all that other stuff on the outside. Well, I do. I need people around me to help. It's interesting, isn't it? We've asked Rob two questions. What is high performance? And he immediately talks about the players and the people around him. Then we ask him about the emotional challenges of a manager and immediately Rob talks about the people around him rather than himself, which is an interesting trait with high performance. Yeah, it is. But I do want to go back to it, Rob.

2:58I know Guy Whittingham on the FA Pro licence brings in a heart surgeon to talk to aspiring head coaches about the pressures that they're under. And the heart surgeon has said that you guys are under more pressure than what he is. And I am interested in not just how you offload it to the team around you, but how do you cope with those real intense acute moments of pressure? I think I'm learning to really enjoy them I would never have thought that and I was just laughing there with Jake before this now talking that no course can prepare for half-time an extra time of the playoff final the championship playoff final you know it's the richest game in football you know when you've got three players that are injured they're hanging off but you've only got two subs left what do you do?

3:39and that half-time team tour I was like who's fucked? and then there's about two or three of them putting their hands up who's less fucked? do you know what I mean? and in the end it was that excuse my language I'm sorry I don't swear loads but that was what it was and then we were having to go, right, well, he's more done than him. So, right, come on, you're off now. And then we had to do two more in, you know, in the, one more in the, you know, during the half, that second half of extra time. You live in the moment. And then those moments now you realise, we did all right. We coped well in that.

4:09Actually, I quite enjoyed it in a perverse way and living through it. And then we look back and it's great to be able to look back because I don't think we do that very often either in football. And that was good. but you made that comment Rob that we very rarely look back in football to then assess that was good why was it good and how do we take what's good and replicate it in the future so I'm interested in how you do that with your team around you even after the success of getting promotion with Luton anyway in that playoff final and stuff we were almost then on to the next thing what's next and having to then prepare for Premier League football the season of Premier League football I suppose it was hard for us all to be able to sit down because so much is happening and so much is going on it's hard for us to sit down down go right let's digest this what have we done well let's look and we did and we found time and then in the pre-season as well to sort of right this is good this is how we expect to be and this is what we think the season's going to go like this is how we want to evolve but then you're living in the moment you're living on the next it just moves on to the next thing and and you don't really allow yourself to go that was that was great everyone did so well we really overachieved there what did we do you get on to the next thing i feel weird sitting here as well talking about high performance and we've just been relegated you know ultimately i feel and I genuinely feel like we failed.

5:21I've spoken to so many people in football and out of football, I say, oh, you did so well, you did this and that. And I know it's nice and it's nice to hear that, but it's hard, you know, and it still hurts now because I feel we were close and around January, February time, I thought we're going to do this. We're going to achieve something unbelievable here and we're going to do this and we weren't quite able to. We just came up short. What's interesting, Rob, is there's a really interesting management study from two management scientists, Madsen and Desai, that they call the triple impact questions.

5:53So one of my pet hates is, you know, when people in sport go, we'll take the learnings from it. And the actual study of how you take the learnings is what they say is, what did you believe before? What was the moment that changed your mind? And what do you now believe instead? And I'm interested in, when you look back then in that Premier League season, what did you believe about your own capabilities as a coach beforehand? When did you realise there was anything different? And what do you believe now then? Yeah, I believed it was going to be really difficult going into the Premier League season.

6:25I knew that. I probably didn't believe that we could evolve and change as much as we did and grow as much as we did. And I feel we had to go through this journey and we had to go through the early stages of pain to almost become the team that was really, really brave and the team that maybe one or two people really started to like watching that weren't Luton fans but I wish I knew then what I know now and I think what I believe coming out of it and then reflecting and then during the season as well that there was nothing there that really surprised us tactically you know you're coming up against the best but there was nothing there that we thought what is that I don't want anyone to feel like I was bigging up the Premier League too much and didn't have enough belief or confidence in us as a team or as a group, but I think we had to go through those early stages of 10, 12 or so games to really learn about it.

7:19We had so little Premier League experience really going into it. A lot was made of that. You know, I had a couple of handfuls of Premier League appearances 20 odd years ago or whatever it was. So it's changed so much since then. We obviously brought in Ross Barkley, who Ross was brilliant for us, a lot of Premier League experience and Ross Townsend, Tim Krul. But then other than that, there was a lot of, some of the lads had played a little bit here or there. Paul Trott, one of my assistants, had had Premier League experience working with Chris Hewton at Brighton, for instance, quite recently.

7:49But it wasn't loads in the building and I feel like we had to just go through this. So we started off the season sort of being us from the Championship the year before. Quite clearly then, we had to adjust quickly. The Brighton game was like, oof. I remember saying wow to myself on a touchline on the opening day about three times. Like, wow. You know, You can watch match today, you can watch Premier League games as much as you want, but then when you're stood on the touchline and the lads are feeling it, then you realise, okay, we've got to up our game. We have. We've got to improve quickly. Hey, sorry to jump into this chat, but I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about some of the fantastic partners we're working with.

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10:09What did you say to the players after that match? It was a case of still supporting them, but realising, right, there's the level. There is the level. It was okay, we need to adjust. We need to adjust things, how we're going to train, intensity, loads of things here, really, really quickly. And we did, and we got helped a little bit by having to do work on the stand as well. So our first home game was called off. So we had a bit of a gap between Brighton and then Chelsea away. Chelsea away, we improved, but we still got ultimately well beaten. And then we thought, okay, we need to tighten things up a little bit.

10:39So we had a couple of games against West Ham and Fulham where we tightened things up, but then we weren't the team I wanted us to be. We were far from it at that stage, but like I said, we were having to go through this process. Wolves was the first time at home where we felt like we can go and be us, turn the heat up, let's go, let's take risks and be brave and be aggressive. We played really well. How did you know that was the time to take those risks? So the plan always was to be against probably the bottom 12, 14 teams at home to go and be as aggressive as we can and be what we want to be, man-to-man pressing, be aggressive, trying.

11:15And it was more around out of possession at that stage because that's kind of what we'd been as a team. Again, not really what I want us to be, but that's where we were in our stage of this journey I'm talking about, our evolution. So that was always the plan. And it showed that we can do this. We can compete. you know we can and Wolves were a really good team and Gary was obviously still working things out at his club at that time but they you know they were good they had really good players so we took some confidence from that and then after that we went up and we actually got our first win against Everton so there was a bit of confidence a bit of belief okay we can compete but we weren't where I wanted where I wanted this to be ultimately and it still took a little bit of time with painful experiences away at Villa where we'd say we'd give teams a plus one in their build up but then quickly they got the quality we're just defending the edge of the box and it's hard then to have any, to lay a glove on the opposition team and the fans were incredible.

12:05There was 3 ,000 coming away from home and travelling but I'm thinking they're with us because of where we're at at the moment and we're experiencing something that we haven't experienced for over 30 years as supporters here but I want to give them something to be proud of as well in terms of performance. So really anyway, fast forward a little bit, it was Arsenal at home that was like Luton 2.0 and that was where I wanted us to be and then from there we could really build on that and be, this is us, it doesn't matter who we're playing against, doesn't matter home or away if we're going to go down we're going to go down swinging and we're going down the way we want to be able to play but i feel like we had to go through those first couple of months to get there there's something there around mindset as well isn't it because there's a study that was done at princeton university where students were all given the same test but given different instructions some were told this is a test to find out whether you deserve to be at princeton university so it was almost like a threat to them whereas some were all this is just a test to find out how clever you are so it was seen as a challenge and what they found is the threat versus the challenge scores were radically different those that were threatened scored 72 percent those that had the challenge scored 90 so i'm interested in when that changing mindset came about from rather than feeling the threat of do we deserve to be here to the challenge of we're going to show who we really are when did that occur it was brentford away and then going into the arsenal home game a few days later and we're in the entertainment business.

13:28Yeah, we want to win. We're in the winning business as well, but we want to try and entertain as well. I want us to be exciting. I want our supporters to enjoy watching their team, be proud to watch their team. I felt that night, it was a freezing cold night at Brentford. The fans were still amazing. They were brilliant. Still stood and applauded us at 90-odd minutes. We'd been beaten 3-1, but really been well beaten and not the way I wanted us to be. We had a long meeting with the staff, you know, say two days later, getting ready for the Arsenal game, so we've just been well beaten there away at Brentford now we've got Arsenal at home and we've got City after that so right how are we going to go and there was a little bit of resistance or a little bit of I'm not sure here Rob but I said I can't stand there and be like that again I can't explain what you mean like that to be passive to be almost allowing the opposition to dominate even if they have got some better players or you know you know more experience or whatever else I just thought that's not how I I want us to be a good reflector.

14:26I want us to be bold. And I want us to be, I want us to take risks. I'm standing here and saying to the boys, by the way, and it's always been the case, take risks. If we make mistakes, I don't care. We're human beings. I'll make more than any of you. So don't worry about it. Let's go. As long as we react the right way. I'm saying all these things about being bold and taking risks, but we're not looking like a team that's doing that. We're competing and we're going to Old Trafford and losing 1-0 and looking valiant and plucky Luton doing all right. But I don't want to be plucky little Luton. and I want us to go for it and try and win.

14:56No, I was convinced this is the way I wanted us to be. We were going to make a couple of changes to the selection because we need energy. We just played. We didn't not work hard against Brentford. We tried, but it was just, it was almost a message and it was that message that I'm giving. It was my fault. When you say the message changed, would you tell us what the message was you were giving your players before? How you tweaked it and then what it was? So tactically, that was it. So now we're going to be man for man. So we're going to go up against one of the best teams in Arsenal, one of the best teams in Europe now, What Mikel's done there is incredible.

15:25We're going to leave big spaces against top players and be 1v1. That is such a bold and exciting approach. Were the players like, this is ridiculous? Or could you see they were like, great, we're going to go for this. Love it. I think they needed it as well and they wanted it. I think when we're at our best, we play with emotion at Luton. And I think that's in general anyway. And I think we play with freedom. You have to have a plan. You have to have an organisation. You have to be able to fall back on something. But if you've got that organisation, that game plan, tactically you're aware, but you've got a team that are willing to run for a brick wall for each other and fight for each other and play with passion and heart and bravery, if you can marry that up, then you're on to something.

16:09And I just felt like we need to pull on the emotion and the heartstrings here a little bit more. And yeah, we've got to have a clear game plan. We'll work on this and we'll be good on the grass, in and out of possession and transitions and set pieces and all of that stuff, of course. We'll nail that. but lads for us to have a foothold in this game for us to be to try and win and beat Arsenal this is the best way for us to go so aside from tactically would you be happy to take us inside the dressing room you know the final message you give those players before the game against Arsenal where you want a change you want front foot you want to take on arguably one of the best teams in Europe apart from the tactics on the emotional side would you mind sharing with us the message that you would have given those players that day it was exactly that it was as much as possible removing the fear I talk a lot about being brave I don't like even mentioning the word fear but there's this inevitable there's going to be so I used to play with fear and I look back and hate that because I was never able to be my best be brave take risks everything that we tried to talk about I tried the message I tried to give was proactive was aggressive was think forward press if there's any kind of mistake do not worry just react instant reactions and yeah ultimately go for it leave it all out there just enjoy it because who who thinks we're going to get anything from this game anyway and ultimately we didn't but it was the beginning of us and be really growing into the league and becoming you know the team that everyone would have seen then for that last half season that i think liked and appreciated so that was it but there was a second part of what you said in terms of the of trying to combine two elements one was the tactical bit of being brave and being on the front foot but you also said about having a group of lads that would run through brick walls for each other that we're going to have each other's back in a tear up how do you create that bit because it's almost like the physics and the chemistry and it's a chemistry bit that that i think is most difficult to understand when we took over when we joined the club we we took over a team and i mean nathan have done incredible work at this football club along with everybody you know and built got into the playoffs the year before when we when we joined the club at the world cup break we were 10th in the league really close to the playoffs and you know in great shape all Nathan's teams will fight and work incredibly hard play very good football but he'll have a realism and pragmatism as well do what's required to win he's done it in different ways you know really really good aggressive football you know maybe in League 2 and then had to do it slightly differently in the championship so a lot of the characteristics of our team were we fight and we run and this is what we do and at Luton Town that's what we need the fans expect that as well by the way and we've got to try and embody that so we weren't going really away when we played Burnley in the championship when Burnley were brilliant weren't they they went away 100 points and it was one of our best performances we lost the game 1-0 but we went really aggressive man for man like that and it was a brilliant performance it was completely almost it was almost completely out of possession performance but off the back of that we did have some good bits of play and good football as well but we pushed Burnley all away and it was a proper tear Vinny loved the game after I mean yeah they won 1-0 so he'll be happy with it but we really challenged them and did something different to most teams against them most teams in the end would have gone a bit mid-low block and waited so we had that to fall back on as well lads you know this was the sort of game to be able to refer to a lot of our players were there in the year before in the championship anyway so we could refer back to past experiences and go this is going to be the best way for us to go and it was a case of them picking a running team a team that then is going to go that's in their DNA it's what they do and they want to do that and the lads ultimately we don't want to wait to be in the Premier League you can wait to be killed if you wait mid low block teams like this are just going to kill you anyway if we're going to lose let's lose by doing it our way and literally use that phrase again having to tear up and going for it I think the lads then actually they were up for it you know it wasn't difficult then to convince them at all There's another bit that I'm interested in in exploring with you we talk about that emotional intelligence of knowing when to give somebody a rocket or when to just stand back but we also know that emotionally we our brains respond six times faster than our logical one so when you're coming into the dressing room and you're hurting what do you do to buy yourself that time so you don't give out mixed messages of you talk about being brave on one hand but then you're annoyed when somebody's made a mistake yeah generally we'll have a few minutes as a group of staff.

20:44We'll go and have a few minutes. We'll talk about it. First half of the game, Paul Trollope will be upstairs watching the game. So from a tactical point of view, he can give us his input. We will have been on the mic as well and stuff throughout that first half. But we'll talk about two or three of the key points that we really want to then try and get across to the players to be able to nail half-time. Every now and again there'll be a you do the tactical, I'm going in now and they're having it. and I just, sometimes you feel it and sometimes I'm just angry or sometimes you go, no, this is what's needed at this moment now.

21:20They need a jolt. They need a, we need a reaction here. Quite rare because more, you know, the lads are really professional and they're really consistent and they normally give absolutely everything and you can see it. As you reflect on the season, this might be a hard question because of your modesty. What, what moment are you most proud of where you think as a leader you really stepped up? Oh, yeah, I mean, the most difficult period and the most challenging period was obviously the time around Locke, around Tom Locke. Yeah, nothing can prepare you for that. That was probably the most challenging time.

21:54And no one can prepare you for that at all, for living through that. And look, I love the guy, but I'm not his fiancée. I'm not his dad who were there in the stadium. He's one of my team members and for what he's done for me and for this football club. I'll always love him and love him for the person that he is, but then it became bigger than football and more important than football and it wasn't long after that Arsenal game so we were beginning to change and evolve as this team but then that happened but then okay our world almost stops and all it's about is Tom and his family but the Premier League doesn't stop and the rest of the world doesn't stop so okay there's all this noise about what's gone on and I know because we're in the Premier League now it goes global and it reaches everywhere but our fixture's not going to be called off on the weekend because of it.

22:47So we had a few days to try and make sense of it, make sure first of all he was all right but then we got to prepare for Newcastle at home the game after and I think the way that we, the team, dealt with it and that whole situation, I'm proud of everybody. I needed help around that time, I had to lean on people around me but the way we sort of dealt with it was from Gary the CEO so at the very very top right the way through to everybody and the medics who were the real heroes incredibly proud of the whole football club What are your memories of the actual game and the moment that it happened? Because from my memory you were very quickly on the pitch weren't you?

23:29Well after what happened at Wembley obviously then there's a just click into gear do you know what I mean? but I could tell and we could all tell very quickly this was different. It just looked so much more serious. So yeah, it was just like I just ran on. Some of the players were incredible. Bournemouth's players as well were incredible and cleared the way and got people on really, really quickly and the medics were allowed to go and do their thing. It was harrowing. It was because it was silent. It was deathly silent. Tom's fiance was then on the touchline and people are trying to comfort her and the medics are working on him and it's, yeah, it was really difficult.

24:21Now the game's gone and once they'd brought him around, once they'd restarted his heart and then he was, it took a while obviously then they got him off and they're looking after him I was, I've got to be honest, I was a wreck inside. I remember speaking to the players and saying, look, I'm supposed to lead you now. I'm supposed to know what to say, but I don't. There's supposed, you know, there's another half an hour of a game to be played. I can't lead you in that. I can't right now. And the lads were incredible. I mean, I then was sort of checking on Tom and then sort of around. And some of the players said to the staff, we can do it now.

25:03We can do it for him right now. it was one or two of the lads that felt like that but then I could to carry on the game yeah but then some of the lads were I could see it spaced out and just not with it and it was it wasn't the right thing in that moment and for their players as well and everybody I needed everyone I needed the staff I needed Gary as well to be able to sort of almost then manage that whole situation because yeah it it affected me right there and right then and I needed a few days to be able to try and make some sense of it. What helped was fairly immediately after I was able to go to the hospital and see him and sit up and talk to him and give him a hug and see that he was okay.

25:45And that helped me that night, you know, within an hour or two. So once I knew he was okay, I was able to start dealing with it, you know. But we are sense-making machines, as you say, that we have to try and put it into some kind of order in our own head. So in that couple of days afterwards, how did you make sense of it? Yeah, it was difficult. Once we knew he was okay and he was on the mend and then he was going to be getting moved and be in great hands, obviously that eased the worry. The plan was always to give everyone a couple of days after that game anyway because the way the schedule worked, we were going to have a couple of days off anyway and get ready for the next game, which was Newcastle.

26:32we ended up sticking to that plan. I needed a day or two. I mean, obviously there'd be, there'd be some calls or text messages and things like that, but I think everyone probably needed a little bit of time. But I remember then speaking to Gary, our CEO after into the second day and saying, look, Rob, he was great and he wanted to help, but he was also saying, Rob, we need you now as well. And the lads will need you as well. Sticks with me. I remember that conversation really well. And I thought, okay, yeah, I know and I'll be okay. And, and, I'll be fine I'll be able to do that we wanted to be able to support the boys so we had sporting chants that came in we had that organised so that we could get professional help if needed we didn't want to force it on anyone but we wanted to say look we're here if needed there's numbers and everything else and I think one or two people leaned on that as well and everyone deals with it differently the way I then dealt with it was once we got everyone back in a couple of days later was I wanted to I wanted to talk about Tom.

27:31I wanted to talk about what he means to me. And now then we were going to move forward. So the first thing was, right, he's okay. And this is where he's at at the moment to reassure one or two people because the lads would have heard from him and texted him and spoke to him. Some of them, some of them was closest mates and some of them wouldn't have as much information on it. So he's okay. He's in good hands. Then I wanted to talk about him and him as a man. and I just thought, what I didn't want to do and I think I said this in the press, I didn't want to be selfish with it I didn't want to see it or try and use it as fuel or motivation to win a game of football I thought that was selfish and I didn't think it was the right way to be, I didn't want to I'd never want to do that but I knew Tom would want us to win and the lads are still competitive beasts and we're going into the game of football we want to try and win a game of football I wanted to talk about him and what he means to me and what he embodies as a person I wanted us to try and try and use that, what he is.

28:29He's not the quickest, he's not the biggest, he's not the best technical player in the world, but he's fought to get himself from the National League to be captain in the Premier League, scoring a goal at Goodison Park. You know, he is someone who makes the absolute most out of what he has got. He's brave, he's the bravest person I know. and he's honest, he's determined, he's a fighter and I wanted us to embody what he is and I spoke about that with the players. You won't be surprised, I got emotional again because my wife hammers me because all I seem to be doing is crying over this last 18 months.

29:10So I opened up a little bit but talked about embodying what Tom is but really being careful not to use it as a selfish motivation tool or something. And I think after that, it was good. I managed to get a few things off my chest, talk about him. We all knew he was right. And then it was, okay, let's focus. Let's get on with what the job is here. He would want us to go and win this game. Let's go and do it. I mean, that reminds me of when we sat down with Chris Voss, the FBI hostage negotiator who had the line that emotion saves time. So being willing to share your emotions. however extreme they are it allows people to move on a lot quicker and build those relationships when you look back on that now do you feel that that was the right approach then to speak about tom in that way it was the right thing for me to do yeah and i'm not i don't know whether everyone's different aren't they and everyone would deal with it in a different way some wouldn't show i suppose some would be able to just go not show any emotion just focus on the next thing.

30:13I'm not a robot and I can't be, I have to try and be me. And I know I'm better when I speak about things and talk about them. If I have to have honest conversations with the lads and if they're difficult, I feel better for having them. So I know I have to have them. I had to do that maybe selfishly for me, but I think it was going to be the right way then to go for us to all move forward as a group. It was a, it was a hell of a thing that happened and that, that we were all around and witnessed. I wonder whether the incident with Tom actually helped remove fear from some of those players because it's like look you know this puts football in perspective actually and winning or losing a game of football on a Saturday matters a lot to you them the Luton fans but from what we've just seen it's not everything you're right and we were able to then use that a few times I didn't want to use it all the time it becomes like white noise doesn't it and then you know you said that you say it all the time Rob but I used it probably three or four times after and I just what's the worst that can happen we were down a number of times last year but then showed a lot of character to fight back and maybe get something from a game or come really close and we could use that what's the worst that could happen here lose a game of football you know in the end it's really important it's our jobs it's football it matters to so many people so I'm not underplaying this I don't want to say and I suppose you won't want to hear me saying that it's not only a game it is more than that to us and it's our jobs it's our livelihoods it matters a lot but there also are more important things.

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34:00and was there a moment where Tom returned and I'm wondering what that was like for you and for all the lads as well yeah I mean one of the best days for us last year was the Brighton game at home so he was there for that game he went out before the game around the stadium and that was the first time all our supporters were able to see him again up on his feet he could get the love and support and the adulation he really deserved and obviously we backed it up with a great performance and a really good win that night. It was a phenomenal night for the club, for him. And it was really, really good.

34:33Well, look, Rob, before we end this conversation about Tom and the incident that happened at Bournemouth, we've got a little video I'd like to share with you. How would I describe Rob Edwards? Wow, how long have you got? Honestly, I love the man. Obviously, what I had to go through, I will ever be thankful for what he's done for me and my family since then. and yeah, I can't thank him enough for that. But that's just the type of bloke he is, honest, humble, hardworking. And, you know, look at his achievements at Forest Green and Luton Town. He's so humble with them. You know, even when he got promoted with Luton, he was giving the credit to other people.

35:13So yeah, and then as a player, when I look at it, all you want is honesty. At least you know where you stand with people and that's exactly what you get. And it's a lot easier to buy into the things he wants to do then. But yeah, honestly, just an incredible human being. And yeah, hopefully I get to run through brick walls for him again in the future. Bless him. Yeah, it means a lot. I think, look, he's really special to me and I do think we have got a special bond, but it's lovely to hear that from someone like him. Because that's ultimately really how I'd like to be remembered by people that I've worked with.

35:49And yeah, it's nice to hear. It means a lot. You and him will have a connection that goes beyond the game, I think, now, won't you? Yeah, forever. And I'd always want him around wherever I am. I genuinely love the guy as a person and will never, ever forget what he has done for, not just the club, for me. For me as well. What would you say he has done for you? He played probably the biggest part in that team that got us promoted to the Premier League. After that Blackpool game, that promotion, I was looking around. I didn't play that day. I was on the bench as part of it. I looked around at the 40 ,000 Orange fans and thought, I'd love this one day.

36:2813 years later, I was literally there, Orange fans, having it, you know, there, wow. And he played, look, he played about eight to 10 minutes that day at Wembley. He played the biggest part for us that year in the promotion. So not just what he did on the pitch, how he led the group off it, standards that he set. Give us an example of how he is a captain. He's honest. When he speaks, he speaks with the authority of a 50-year-old manager who I think has got way more experience than me. Sometimes I think, flipping heck. I'm like, you can come and do what I do now. He's eloquent. He knows the right tone to hit.

37:09And I think for a player, it's fairly rare that, to be able to nail it every single time. He knows when to be quiet. He knows when to listen. but he just had such high standards whether that was in training, match day before the game, I wasn't privy to them all, on a match day the lads will do the warm up and then they'll have their huddle and sometimes Richie or Trolls, my assistants, would come in and go what Locke said today, like wow yeah, yeah he's a leader, yeah So then the day comes when relegation is confirmed, how was that day for you? Yeah, difficult I mean West Ham it wasn't mathematically done but it was done and that was the day yeah again where in the end it made me emotional because I'm stood there and we had this sort of really poignant moment where we stood there for about 10 minutes and our supporters were on their feet and singing and applauding these players and I said this to the lads a few times like you are heroes to these people for what you've done for this football club you are heroes you're going to remember for so long we had the chance the chance then to be really like legendary legendary people Mick Harford's and that kind of level of people, you know, but they're going to be remembered for a long time for what they've done and the highs that they've given these supporters.

38:27So to get that love, even though really we knew we were down that day, was really emotional for me. It made me sad that I felt like I'd failed them and let them down. But I was just incredibly proud to then represent this club as well because in what could be a really dark moment, it didn't feel like that. it just feels like this club is still on the way forward and up even though we've had a setback and that moment almost convinced me like right we have we got to get back here do you honestly think that you failed i mean you had very few players of premier league experience 60 players in the premier league individually earned more than your entire squad and in a season you took the club through to the premier league in a playoff final on a penalty shootout and then you held Girona was for the entire season against all the odds, everything that happened with Tom.

39:20You honestly see it as a failure? Personally, because that's always there now. And I really genuinely believe that we could do it. And I knew the scale of the task, but I don't think I knew it fully until then we really started living it as well, like in those early weeks, as I was explaining earlier on. If you'd have asked me around January, February time, December, January, February, when we really changed and we were playing really well. I thought we're going to do this. And then ultimately there's some things that we've still got to be able to look at and review and things that are really important.

39:50So around, we lost a lot of people, a lot of injuries. And that's an area that I think there's not just one thing there. There's almost 20 things, almost 20 reasons that we've got to look at, but we've got to be better as a group, as a team, me, everybody to try and make sure that our strongest squad is available to be able to pick from. but yeah I felt like we I felt like we could do it I felt that we were good enough to be able to do it but we weren't and yeah I think that will live with me for a long long time but I do recognise that we've done well as well I can tell myself that I do recognise that we've done a good job here but I think our challenge now this is great this is the journey that we're on we're improving and we're getting better our next step now is to try and we know how difficult the championship is but we've proved we can do it is to try and get there again and then next time if we do we're better for it we'll be better for the experience that we've just had in this league now next year and we're starting from a much stronger position because of the way that we've evolved as a team tactically physically everything there's no doubt it takes you to another level that league there's no doubt and like I said before there's nothing that really surprised us and it's I mean myself and Richard work with the England youth team we're working with best players and tactically at a really sort of high level this this is great you come and get like Pep and Unai and people like that these are like you know they're geniuses Which manager did you look at their work and think oh wow okay The City away game was the hardest game that we had all season there's no doubt about it we couldn't get out you know they were incredible that day we were a little bit under strength and you look at the squad you turn around I've got two goalkeepers five teenagers on the bench and it was like we were at that time we had a lot of people missing but they were unbelievable they were brilliant everything that they were fast clinical so so disciplined but they worked incredibly hard their intensity was just another it was another level it was brilliant that was tough and Pep's team was great and the plan that they have against us I mean the FA Cup game was incredible he played all of his dribblers the people that could handle the ball against that man for man press and he'd have John Stones like stepping forward and was playing like a number 10 and taking our number 9 back all the way with him as well and it was a nuts game and it should have been about 8-4 it ended up 6-2 to them but we created big chances we had it was a brilliant performance but we got some things wrong but they were incredible but I think what Unai Emery did at Villa I think and Andoni as well at Bournemouth I think those two were outstanding their sort of coaching what they did as coaches and how they improved their teams I thought there were a couple of really impressive performances from them and their teams last year brilliant I've heard a story about Jurgen Klopp going to some UEFA coaches meeting when he was at Dortmund and he told somebody afterwards he said I only went once because I wanted to come meet these guys understand that they were no different than me and then I had the confidence to go and be myself.

42:39Did you have a moment where you thought, I'm all right here, I'm in the right company? It was funny, it was great because there were some nice moments last year and people like him, really, the people, Jürgen, Mikel, Pep, finished the top three didn't they last year? I had the most time with them after a game and they were brilliant, really respectful and I left the room, especially after leaving Jürgen's office after the game feeling about a 10 foot tall I've got a little bit of a feeling of how his players must feel playing for him give us give us a reason why he was amazing he put his arm around me when we walked in they beat us 4-1 we won at the part of time we were playing really well but ultimately they were too good Anfield was amazing that night it was brilliant and yeah he came in after the game put his arm around me and we were looking at the picture of him with the Champions League trophy and he said how old are you 41 he said when I was your age I was as far away from that trophy as you are now.

43:33But then he started talking about this can be your time now and what you're doing. I love what you're doing and how you're working with the team and stuff. And I was like, wow, you know, this is Jurgen Klopp now. This is one of the guys who is an inspiration for me saying this. So I left feeling really confident that we were on the right track and we're trying to do things the right way. And look, what is the right way? I mean, everyone's different. It's just fine. I don't want people to think there's more than one way so I don't mean that but just Your way? Yeah, our way and being brave and trying to be us and I just love that someone like him could still appreciate and he can because he did seven years at Mainz and took a smaller team up to the Bundesliga and kept them there as well and then ultimately got relegated and tried to go again so I think he would have had a real understanding for where we were with it as well so I did really appreciate that from him And Pep?

44:29Brilliant I had a glass of wine with him and yeah, he was just, again, incredibly generous with his time. Appreciates what we did. Said we got balls, you know, pressing the goalkeeper at Anfield. He said, I don't even do that. So yeah, it was nice to hear some things from him as well. And yeah, I think those guys sort of were pretty, look, ultimately they beat us. And all right, we got a point off Liverpool in the home game, which was, you know, it was an amazing night for us. But you know, they beat us. They've got amazing teams. they're brilliant people and brilliant managers and coaches but we did perform well in those games against the best and we competed as well as we could so it was really really nice to be able to sit down with them have a little bit of time because they I know it's probably different for me but they're incredibly busy and there's a lot of demands on them as well so for them to give that time was yeah it was it was it'll mean a lot to me it means a lot to me.

45:22And I do want to talk about Unai as well because I think that his story I find particularly compelling because of the way he was pilloried and criticised and almost hounded out of the Premier League the first time around. You know, all the memes and the jokes around him. And then he comes back in and now he shows what we failed to see the first time, even though he'd done it for many, many years. You know, taking a team constantly to the Europa League final and batting above their weight. You can argue that he's been the best coach this year in the league. You know, City won the league, incredible again, and that you can never, Pep's just on a whole other level, isn't he, with what he's done, but the job that Unai has done there, they've got brilliant players, of course they have, but then he's, the shift and how quickly he's been able to change them to get them to that level.

46:08It's hard to put that into words, really, how the respect that I've got for him. And I know he puts an unbelievable amount of time and energy into every single day, every single session, every single moment of the job. and it's been repaid with you know getting the team to the Champions League and whatever he's going to go on and do he strikes me and I don't know him very very well at all I mean I've spoke to him a little bit out of a few messages back and forth what did he say? it was a huge congratulations on what you've done and I find it really hard to take anything like that from people because I think at the time we're probably in the bottom three and I'm like thank you you're doing what you're doing what you're doing I said like well done to you too you know what I mean and he's like no no no he's like really seriously and I thought wow thank you it's nice and I know he's sort of appreciated what we've done as well on a different scale and it was a really good game as well the second time around it was 3-2 late on but we played really really well it was a great game so that yeah that was nice again a bit of confirmation from someone like him was good again we're on the right track we're trying to do what's right for us but I think he's a special manager he's won so much you know four European titles and so yeah it's all there I wonder how next season's going to be for you actually because it will be different you know there was you got not an easy ride in the Premier League but there was so much love for you and what you were doing and looting there's now going to be expectation yeah you're right and that's going to be real different for us to be able to handle that you're spot on so we you know got promoted when we weren't expected to you're right we were massive underdogs all of last year and people yeah we did get an easy ride there's no doubt about it we're losing games oh you know Luton have done well, they've competed well.

47:53So I get that and I appreciate it. We have now got to be able to deal with the expectation that we've got to be up there and we've got to win more games than we'd lose. That is going to be interesting in how we deal with that. We'll have to talk about that openly from the first day of pre-season when the lads are back in to get everyone ready to deal with it. And how are you feeling now? It would be easy to be thinking, I'd love to just be back in the Premier League. Is there any element of exhaustion, tiredness, lack of ambition? No, none of that. I feel really, really good and really motivated.

48:23Look, it hurt. Of course it did. And it still does if I really think about that. The Premier League fixtures came out yesterday, didn't they? And I was jealous. Remember receiving those last year and being so excited. But it just fuels the fire to want to get back there. And again, this is like those wins. We can't guarantee that. We know how difficult the championship is. But the challenge ahead, that journey now, I keep imagining it. The two things that we did both at Forest Green and at Luton, we told the lads for day one you're going to get promoted we're going to get promoted I'm looking forward to seeing them and saying this is what we want to try and do again visualising that I keep visualising it in a year's time watching Southampton Russell Martin doing what they did this year and obviously the two teams I mean Kieran and Enzo did incredible but seeing all those people achieve something this year it makes me think that's got to be us we've got to I want to feel that again So you tell the players on the first day back we're going to get promoted that will be the aim and I've got to be careful for managing the expectation stuff of this year but we did it both Forest Green and we did it at Luton first time we met the players and we spoke about that we visualised it and I encouraged it you know what's wrong with that that's what I feel right now and that's what I think I will say and then it's obviously then managing that with our supporters and everything else and the expectancy as well this season because it's inevitable in this league you can have some difficult moments so we've got to be able to deal with that If there's one person that needs to believe it's you Yeah And you genuinely do believe Yeah I do Great Right, time for some quickfire questions.

49:49The three non-negotiable behaviours that people around you and you need to buy into. Respect. And I think that encompasses a lot of things then and can cover a lot. Honesty and humility. What's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness? Empathy. And empathy. Say more on that. I just think it can also be, I can overthink, I can see if, say I've had to leave someone out for instance I could be doing a team meeting I can read the body I can read the body language I can see if they're with me or not at that moment and that could be challenging because I can really pick up and sort of really sensitive on those sorts of things so it can be a strength a lot because I'll know when to put my arm around someone or try and have a chat with them but also it can be very draining them because I'm doing that constantly all the time and you said earlier though that you go and deliver bad news quickly to the individual how do you deliver bad news bullet between the eyes straight away and then try and then justify and give them a reason why um i've learned over time you can't babble on in those situations sometimes if you're leaving someone out all they've heard is you left me out and then sometimes they you might need to pick up on it again later in the day or the next day because sometimes then all they've heard is right i'm not playing and that's it and that's all they want to hear and then you can give them a reason why and then sometimes we end up having the same conversation later on in the day or the next day and I think I've told you this and so I realise now it doesn't always register so normally it's like bosh have that and then we can pick up on it later if we need to if you're back to one moment in your life where would you choose to go and why I mean personal life children being born families always first those were incredible days with three children incredible but professionally I'm not sure if we'll ever beat Wembley and you know what happened there was incredible so proud to be a part of that What advice would you give to a teenage Rob just beginning his journey?

51:51Believe in yourself, don't worry about what people think of you that's the biggest thing I think I've had a lot of doubt and still do but I'm getting better at dealing with that and believing that I can do it And finally your one golden rule for living a high performance life be kind but believe in yourself and I think if you're a good person you work hard and you're good at what you do you're going to get to where you want to be I really believe in that I really really believe that with everything so yeah I think be a good person so you've got to be good at what you do and give it go for it make it happen Rob thank you so much for joining us that was fascinating my pleasure thank you

52:35Damien Jake Jake. We talk so much about hard skills in life, particularly in football. What's the formation? What are the tactics? What's the approach? Who's he picking? Who's he dropping? But that was a conversation where emotion was at the heart of it. And I think it's a great reminder that brilliant leaders are leaders that put their emotional intelligence, those soft skills that's so important, almost at the top of the page. Yeah, definitely. And they're the things that don't show up on spreadsheets when you do the data analysis of great sporting events. That's of stuff that makes a difference that we can't see and I think Rob gave us a real masterclass there in understanding it and how you harness it you know just that willingness to admit that he broke down after Tom's collapse on the pitch at Bournemouth you know that's a leader there showing vulnerability, leader going in after that losing the 3-0 lead at Bournemouth later on in the season and telling people that he wants to see them happy and upbeat, that's a leader again perfectly in tune with his emotions and that's incredible.

53:37I also love how he talks about instincts. You know, there are times when he decides just to go straight into the dressing room and to give them a rocket and just to make it clear that it's not acceptable. You know, when he talks about dropping players and delivering hard news and he says there's a bullet between the eyes and then make it short and sweet because they don't want to hear anything else. I think there's that instinct as well, which is the reason why he, without doubt, was one of the most successful managers in the Premier League last season, despite relegation. And he will, he'll hate hearing that because actually, yes, he was emotional talking about the things that happened last season, but you can also see the emotion when he talks about the fact that he believes he failed and let people down.

54:16Yeah, and from Rob's point of view, our opinion isn't really important for him, but the opinion of people like Jurgen Klopp, Unai Emery, Pep Guardiola, they're people that are doing that job, they're in the arena, and when they're stopping to acknowledge and recognise just how exceptional he is, that's where his confidence and his belief of just what an exceptional person, as well as an exceptional coach, he is. And I love the fact that the likes of Pep and Unai and Jürgen take time they don't need to take to spend time with a young manager on his first journey. That story of Jürgen putting his arm around Rob and saying, when I was your age, I was as far from the Champions League as you are.

54:55That is like, that's just showing him the path. Yeah, and that's a great example, isn't it? That you can be competitors in one domain, but actually you can be sporting in the way that you can duck yourself off it. and they're all great examples that again we never see as a public we never see Jurgen Klopp doing that and showing that generosity and that humility and Rob's got all those same characteristics and I've no doubt he'll go on and achieve a stellar career what a great guy yeah it was a privilege and that's it what a conversation and for more impressive football leaders you can check out episodes with the likes of Gareth Southgate Eddie Howe and so many more listen please do one thing for me just hit follow if you do that we grow the show we attract more incredible names and we can keep delivering great guests who impact your life for good thank you so much for listening

56:07you