Ross Clark: Meet the Real Rylan

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. need help getting back up and everyone waited for me everyone helped me get back up the stairs again because i always tell them that's important to me that was the voice of ross clark known to you and most of the world as rylan i'm jay comfrey and alongside damian hughes we speak to the world's most fascinating people on this show to find out how we can all explore more on our own journey towards high performance rylan first emerged on our screens on the x factor before becoming one of the UK's most loved and versatile presenters. He's hosted Big Brothers, Bit on the Side, to Strictly It Takes Two.

1:07Now he recently sat down for an extended interview with the legendary singer Mariah Carey and he's also the author of the hugely popular memoir, 10, The Decade That Changed My Future, where he opens up about his extraordinary career and his personal challenges. And actually personal challenges is something you'll hear plenty about in this conversation, you will hear us talk to Ross rather than Ryland, who he usually shows to the public, as he opens up about his battles with depression and how on some days just boiling the kettle felt like a mountain to climb. We think this conversation is a reminder that although on the surface people might be smiling, you never actually know what's going on inside.

1:47Expect to hear how Ryland's worked through his issues to come out the other side in a really inspiring conversation, and that's Whether he's being serious or having a laugh about the peacock who lives in his back garden, there's no doubt about it, Rylan is great company. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as myself and Damien did, as we welcome Rylan to High Performance. Before we start, please be advised that there is some bad language and there are themes of trauma and suicide in this conversation.

2:17Look, thank you very much for doing this. It's a pleasure. It's much appreciated. What is High Performance? It's a difficult question, isn't it? I think it depends on what mood I wake up in. High performance can be actually getting out of bed, or high performance can be getting up and proper taking on the day. What is it today? I'll let you know in a minute. Okay. Let's talk about where it all started for you, because I've read your book. We both have. It's absolutely fascinating. and you've got chapters where you say Ross meet Ryland and Ryland meet Ross. Yeah. So the first thing is I guess who are we talking to today?

2:53Who do you want? I think we'd like to talk to Ross. All right, you've got Ross then. And is it that easy for you to switch between the two? So who is Ross then? Just a normal boy, literally. Normal little stepney green kid, managed to do all right for himself. Ryland's obviously all the teeth the tan the tight skinny jeans that's Ryland Ross's tracksuit beer in hand hand down his trousers watching telly Who of the two is the happiest? That's a really different Ryland Ryland's the happiest 100 % because he's got to be he's paid to be happy There's something in that though isn't there because Ryland is the happy one he's the one paid to be happy Ryland I guess is the one earning all the money right?

3:36Yeah Ryland's doing well alright for himself Ryland's doing very well yet Ross is there all the time. Ross is the truth. You know, when all of this, we both do the same job, let's be totally frank, that eventually this stops, okay? Yeah. Fades away. It ends at one point. And that's when actually the only thing that is left then is Ross. Yeah. So what work have you done to make Ross happier? Because that's the most important part. I think majorly over the past year, I've tried to merge my work and professional life and my personal life more. for Ross I mean I sound absolutely crazy talking about myself in a third person with four people but I think for Ross I don't think I will ever be happy until I feel comfortable and I think Ryland's very very comfortable with where he is I think when it comes down to my work life I'm lucky to do the jobs that I do I work hard at the stuff that I do and I earn amazing money for it which I'm grateful for and that spills over to the real me.

4:39Ross means I can live in a nice house. It means I haven't got to worry about my heating bill this year. I haven't got to worry about this. But in a very ungrateful term, it's not just about that for Ross. Like, absolutely not. You know, I'd like to be with someone. I'd like to share. I'm quite a sharer. I like giving to people. I like looking after people. And for the past sort of year and a half, I've been not doing that. And for the first time, Ross has had to be on his own. I've never been on my own. I've never lived on my own in my life. I'm 34. Coming to terms with living on my own and getting to know me, I think has actually been the best thing that could have happened.

5:19I went to Barcelona this year. It's the first time I'd ever been anywhere on my own just for three days because I knew I had to do it. I knew that was my time to disappear on my own and throw myself in at the deep end. A lot of people do that daily. I've never done that and it was the best thing I ever did it was the best thing I ever did So tell us the moment you get into your hotel room in Barcelona you close the door and it's just it's just you and you I actually remember this almost like a film I try and remember like scenes and I put my suitcase on the bed and the first thing I do whenever I'm in a hotel I am that bloke I hang everything up put everything away the suitcase goes in the suitcase rack like I like linear I like it like that and I did that and it was just silence and I was like looking around and I was like I've got two options I can either sit here and think I'm by myself I'm panicking I don't know what to do or I look at it as you can do whatever you want to do as quick or as slow or you don't it's entirely up to you I can do what I want and I just thought well I can do what I want I want to go for a walk is something I don't do here.

6:32And I walked from one end of Barcelona to the other. Halfway through, I took my top off. I never do that here. Didn't care. Did not care. It was almost like cementing that I am still a normal person and I can do normal things if I really want to. So let's talk then about where this normal life disappeared for you. I mean, I sometimes wonder whether meteoric success is healthy for anyone. Is it possible to have me direct success and enjoy it, be happy, be healthy in your mind? I think so. Yeah. For me, I became famous overnight, literally within three minutes of one piece of television. That was it.

7:12That's the place I started is documented. Like it's there. And that's not to say before that I wasn't working towards stuff because clearly I was, otherwise I wouldn't have been in that situation. But to go from being able to walk down a street and look like shit after a night out and go and get some milk to doing that and it ending up in Heat magazine, ending up here, people stopping you, asking you for photos. Yeah, it's quite difficult. But my feet weren't touching the ground at that point because I was on the X Factor and that was a complete machine. and by the word machine I mean machine you are a part of that machine that has to keep turning around and there's been a lot over the past couple of years about sort of safeguarding people that come from reality tv and and really sad things that have happened which I completely understand like and it's devastating stuff that's happened to people have taken their own lives because they don't know how to handle it and aftercare and things like that but for me that cog kept turning so I didn't know what it was like for the machine to stop working and have that sort of brick wall moment.

8:26So for nine years, the cogs kept turning and they never stopped. If anything, they started going faster and they started getting bigger and they started becoming more lucrative, I suppose, is the best way to put it. And then a year ago, I had a marriage breakdown which turned into a mental breakdown for me and that was the first time that the machine started to make the noise, slowed down and stopped. And I was the one pressing the emergency stop button. And I knew I was the only one pressing the button, but I couldn't take my finger off the button. So for five months, I just stopped and shut down.

9:02And I think my marriage ending was the catalyst for the machine stopping, but actually nine years of never stopping and never having time to breathe and actually understand what happened to me. How did this happen? Everything I wanted, how did that happen? When you've got time to think, it can be the most frightening place in the world, your own head. And that's what happened to me, and it fucked me up. Yeah, it fucked me up.

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11:11the description in your book around that breakdown is really quite harrowing to read but there's a bit where you precipitated the breakdown in terms of the way so when you went to your partner and told him about an infidelity in the past how much can you now look back at your subconscious was almost looking for to press that emergency stop? My subconscious has always been spot on. And what really messed me up is why I would throw a bomb on something that I didn't need to or have to. There was no worry. There was nothing really that had happened. Like it wasn't a big deal, to be perfectly honest, without going into detail.

11:56But something in me was itching and started scratching. And it was over the course of three days, I got ill. I remember waking up and the bed was soaked wet because I'd be sweating in my sleep and I knew what was coming and I could feel it just bubbling up and I'm going, what the fuck is wrong with you? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? It was almost like self-sabotage. Yeah, yeah. And that's what made that following few months even worse because I couldn't understand why I had blown up my seemingly amazing life and then as I started to get better, my subconscious kicked back in and then I learned stuff that I needed to learn.

12:36Like what? Just knowledge. When someone says that you're crazy and you're mad and that you're making shit up, you start believing that if it's said to you enough. When you realise the day that you're not mad, you wasn't going crazy and your subconscious is right, you wake up. And for the worst point of my life, and I got to the lowest point, that anyone can get. I almost look back now and I'm glad that I got there because now I know I'll never let myself get to that point again. So tell us, what was that lowest point? I tried to take my own life. I tried to do it twice. Looking back now, whenever I even talk about that, which is something I don't really talk about, I'm glad I was unsuccessful now, but at the time I was so angry that I was unsuccessful.

13:27and I just remember I'd be going to sleep and just willing myself not to wake up almost I'm six foot four I went down to nine stone like I wasn't eating I wasn't doing I was trying to do everything I could for my body to just naturally shut down basically because then it wouldn't be my fault I had too much guilt already with fucking up my life I thought that I'd ruined everything so if I thought if if it was a natural thing that I just didn't wake up in the morning then it's not my fault. I think it was responsibility. I didn't need any more responsibility than I'd already took. All I've done throughout my career, my marriage, my everything, I took responsibility for everything.

14:06If the skies broke, I'll go and fix it. If that door don't work, I'll go and fix it. I'm always the fixer, the responsible one. I just didn't want any more responsibility. And then when I made the decision to be responsible for something as awful as that, I fucked that up as well. I was just in no state to get anything done. And how are you doing now? Brilliant. Really good. So what happened? When did the clouds start to part? The clouds started to part when I realised that I hadn't lost something I thought I had. And I turned a situation that I thought was an awful situation into an opportunity.

14:49you know I was 33 34 uh just turned at the time and I realized that when something's not right it's not right and it wasn't right and that's when things started changing and I started looking at different things as opportunities sit there and go maybe this is my time now to find out what I actually want what I need who I am you see like you've had an amazing career and we'll get your success um what did you say in your book you say you know started out as a joke and 10 years later i'm still laughing and we'll go into that in more detail but i think what is really interesting here is effectively you didn't grow up right from the moment you appeared on that reality show ross disappeared at that moment he maybe have you probably started to push him to one side before that but at that moment it was 100 rylan so then there's no growth for ross which is truly you right?

15:45So you standing in that hotel room saying to yourself, well, I can do anything I want. I can go for a walk. I can go for food. I can have a sleep. You know, that's what most people go through at 18, 19 when they go to university and then my dad walk away for the first time. Absolutely. So you've had to exist in this world where you haven't kind of grown because the world hasn't allowed you to. But that in itself is really strange because if you go back to the beginning and you say, look at all these amazing things that you can do, you will be the happiest person in the world with a partner and with an amazing TV career.

16:17And actually, there's a strong lesson here for people that it's not about those external successes, about those TV shows, or about the nice house, or the nice cars, or the nice pay packet. And that's easy to say when you've got it. Don't get me wrong. Because I'd be one of these people at home going, Shut up. But there's no moment where you go, now I can be happy because I've achieved this, is there? No. No, because I think when you're an achiever, if you want to call it that, are you ever happy? Because you're always striving for more. You're always striving for something else. You're always striving for the best or to be the best, I suppose.

16:56And I think for me, I got a lot quick. A lot happened for me. I mean, a friend of mine's Emma Willis. And, you know, I worked with Emma at Big Brother for years. and it took Emma to get bit on the side years of working in MTV, working in this, doing that. And then she got that show, which then led on to her hosting Big Brother. I left X Factor in the November, went into Celebrity Big Brother in January, won it and was hosting Bit on the Side by the June. So it took me six months. So these opportunities just happened. They didn't happen to Ross though, did they? They happened to Ryland. So Ryland was having amazing success, amazing growth, learning all the time brilliant relationships incredible life Ross was just parked away in a cupboard so in this period that you've been through where you've you know you didn't have to say this to your partner but you needed to say it to your partner to get out of that to be where you are now sitting in this chair so finally like Ross can actually grow again now oh yeah he is I am like I'm definitely growing like against stupid things like you say most people go through at the age of 18, 19, 20 I'm going through at the age of 34 now living on my own for the first time.

18:05Up until X Factor, I was living with my mum. Then I was on tour, then I was working, then I built my first house and my ex moved in with me. So I've never lived in a house on my own. I'm doing that at 34 for the first time. And some people it takes until 34, but because of the last 10 years that I've had, it seems the wrong way round. So having that time alone has made me realise that I'm all right with my own company and actually I'm alright. I'm not this fuck up. I'm not this idiot. I'm not this joke. I'm actually normal. And I'm really happy with who I am. And I can look back at my mistakes, if you want to call them that, and actually look at them as turning points of my life.

18:50Are they mistakes? No. I can sleep well at night. So can I take you back then to that moment that you've described where you considered taking your own life, you were willing yourself not to wake up in the morning and you're now in a position where you can look back at it and go, I'm really glad that that didn't happen and I'm stronger for it. For people that are listening to this, that maybe are approaching or are at that rock bottom moment themselves, what tips, advice or techniques can you share then that help them get to where you are now, where you can look back at it with gratitude? So I am not a guru.

19:29I am not someone who can change your life just by saying something. But one thing I've learned since I did the book is the amount of messages I've got from people. And the general consensus is I've tried to explain how I feel. And the way that you've done it on paper is exactly how I fucking feel. That's it. That's how I feel. I know that feeling of people trying to help you and your loved ones like my mum, my family, my friends, trying to help me people's hands snap out of it ain't gonna help you but one thing i have learned i had therapy i was lucky enough that i could afford therapy i had antidepressants they didn't work for me at first that's a very very trial and error thing i don't even take a paracetamol when i've got a headache like i like just getting on with shit i did i was very anti all of that do i think they helped me in the end yeah i think they did i'm not on them now i managed to come off them which I'm really happy about.

20:26But the one thing that I know and I can say hand on heart is the only person who will get you out is you, 100%. And if you're not at that point, that's all right. Sit there and stew. Feel like you can't get out of bed. Don't get ready. Don't have a shower. That's what I did. That's exactly what I was going through. And I understand being in that situation, you might as well be deaf and blind at the same time because you cannot see and you cannot hear. I had two weeks when my speech completely went slurred and my mum thought I was having a stroke. I could not control my speech. Everything happened to me.

21:05But what I look back on is little things and it sounds really embarrassing and it sounds really condescending, but you need to look at yourself like a toddler. Going to the kitchen and pressing the button on the kettle is a step. That sounds really ridiculous because it's something we do a million times a day. It's really not difficult. I couldn't make my mum a cup of tea. I had the fear. I couldn't do it. I couldn't listen to music and I couldn't watch TV. They're my job. So I thought I was over. The day that you go, I'm just going to press the button. I'm not making the tea. Let it boil. Fuck it off.

21:42The day you do that, that's a little step. And the reason I say toddler, because you sit there and applaud yourself for that. You go, well done, babe. Well done. Yeah. You know what? It's really interesting you say this because there's research. sorry to jump in there no go on there's research on this that have said that that when you're going through a tough time talking to yourself exactly what you say literally as if you're talking to a child yeah but talk to yourself in the third person yeah you're well done Rylan you've done really well today actually keeps you going it gives you that resilience and fortitude it majorly helped me and I'll never forget showering which is something we all do twice a day once a day four times a day whatever yeah fingers crossed I remember I didn't want to clean myself I didn't want to shower I just didn't want to move and I remember the first step another step on that ladder I would turn the shower on and then go away and then turn it off that's one step I'd turn the shower on and I might just put my leg in and turn it off go away gone and then later on I turned the shower on and I remember the first it sounds crazy but my mum was obviously on at me like you've got to have a shower come on sort yourself out and i didn't want to make her upset and i just went under the water come out you know like when you're faking it as a kid i'm like yeah i'll brush my teeth like you know one of them and come out in a towel and sort of pretended that i'd had a shower i didn't wash myself i didn't have shower gel i didn't wash my hair but that was a step and then a few days later after keep on doing that i then did put a bit of shampoo in my hair and then I did now I'm in fucking baths watching Kath and Kim like do you know what I mean like it's these little steps and every single person is different and there is no sadly magic wand to make these things happen but your mind is the reason why you're there there's circumstance there's triggers there's everything it could be trauma it could be PTSD it could be this but your mind is the only person doing that and sometimes there There is an issue, a medical issue, an imbalance with your head.

23:52And if that's antidepressants that fix that, great. If that's therapy that fixes that, great. If it's neither, great. But try and make the smallest of steps. You don't need to make the cup of tea. You just need to press the button today. That's what we need to do and walk away. I think that's actually really powerful. And actually, it's a reminder that we still look at mental health issues in a totally different way to physical issues. because if you were a footballer and you broke your leg, it would be totally normal to go, well, first of all, I was in the cast. Then the cast came off. And then I had to sit down.

24:22Then I could finally stand. And when I could stand, I could walk. And when I could walk, I could run. And then eventually I was back in full training. Now, everyone hearing that would go, yeah, I get that. That's exactly the steps that you take. When you're talking about a mental health problem, it's the same. It's exactly the same. And we have to change the conversation about it where we go, do you know what? It's okay for you to have to sit on the sofa for a few days. You know, we're not robots and we treat our bodies and our minds like we're robotic. Yet when our bodies break down, everyone goes, oh, you'll be all right, yeah, it's fine.

24:49When our brains break down, we don't talk about it. We don't work out how to get through it. So thank you so much for sharing that. I wish I could say more, but it literally is the smallest baby step. But isn't it fine that the answer is actually quite simple from your perspective? Yeah, it's incredibly simple. But when you're in that situation and when you're feeling that low, opening your eyes is tough let alone moving your arms, just opening your eyes can be the hardest thing in the world just press the button, that's all you need to do today tomorrow think about pouring the water but I'm particularly struck by the technique that you described of talking just kindly to yourself like your toddler and I'm interested, have you maintained that in your recovery?

25:35I actually have and especially living alone as well I noticed the other day like there's this pheasant that keeps running around my garden and I've named it Patrice clearly I've got a lot of time on my hands and I will get I got up this morning and I went into my kitchen I was making a coffee and I looked out the window and I saw the pheasant like by like the little water fountain and out loud not just the voice in my head, out loud I've gone oh there he is little fucker but I've said it rather than think it and I don't think there's anything wrong with that because I'd say it if someone was there.

26:10No one is there. But actually, I quite like a little chat with myself every now and again. I actually like it. So have you got an example you can share with us, Ryland, where maybe something's gone wrong that before your illness might have seemed catastrophic? Now you can put it in perspective. Oh my God, it's majorly. But more how you've taught yourself through it now that would be different. I think before I went through my episode, if you like, things would really bug me. things would really get to me and it was normally nine times out of ten work sort of me feeling hard done by me feeling there's an injustice here like me feeling like i've worked towards something and then been overlooked for something and coming out the other side of this i used to feel like that was the worst thing in the world but now i hate the term because it's such a cliche term but it's a full-on case of don't sweat the small stuff genuinely because I think when you've been to the brink, whatever you want to call it, you sit there and go, oh, they're looking at someone else for that job.

27:12Yeah. Ourselves. All right. So I can't do this instead. You see, you said something interesting as we were walking in and we were talking about a job that we won't name, but you said, look, I have to accept that I can't control their decisions. I can't control anyone else's decisions. And it feels like maybe before the period you've just been through, you were trying to control everyone's decision. Yeah. I think I would sit there and worry that, oh, okay, well, clearly this is going to happen, yeah? This is going to happen, yeah? Then when I knew it wasn't, I'd be like, well, what can I do? What can I do to change it?

27:43What can I do to change it? I believe we can change stuff, 100%. But ultimately, it genuinely feels like a weight off my shoulders because I sit there and go, well, all right. I just remind myself, listen, that's not going to happen. Not a problem. You're all right. You're all right, babe. You've got your health. You've got your house, you've got your car, you've got some money in the bank, you're alright. That's my comfort, to know that I'm secure. That's all I ever want in life, and I think it's all anyone really wants in life. Just know they're secure, whether that's in a relationship, whether it's financially, whether it's family, whether it's health, anything like that.

28:18You just want to be secure in those aspects. And I am lucky that I am secure in a lot of aspects of my life. The one thing I'm not secure in is a relationship at the moment. but I'm having a relationship with myself at the moment that I've never had and maybe I need to do that for me. So when you leave the house now then, so coming here today, do you have a different approach then to putting on your Ryland mask as opposed to... Do you know what? This is something I've been thinking about lately. So today, for instance, we've done a 10 o 'clock start this morning. So I leave my house with more than enough time that I know, get on the M11, there's traffic.

28:58And I'm like, right. always a bit of traffic on the M11, it's not a problem. But the traffic's getting back up and back up and back up. Now, normally, I would be that person, God's sake, like, why... But again, I can't control it. I can't control that traffic. So if I'm 10 minutes late, if I'm half hour late, if I'm an hour late, it's not great. I don't like being late. It's a pet peeve of mine. And I wasn't late, just to let you know. But before, I would get so frustrated and so wound up. I was at the airport the other day. And a flight was cancelled. And I knew my flight was going to be cancelled.

29:33And the panic started going... But then I just stopped myself. And it's almost like that little cut off before it boils over. How do you do that? Because people listening to this will be struggling with that moment, the cut off moment. So I sit there and go, stop. In my head, in my head, not out loud at the airport, because then people do look. I went, stop a minute. Right. If this flight's cancelled, I'm going to miss that. which is sad, but it's fine. And all I need to do, I've got my credit card on me, I've got my business card on me, I'll just book a hotel. I'll stay in a hotel. I've got clean underwear in my back.

30:11I try and go, what do I do? Or is there another avenue? Is there another airline? Is there another this? What do I do? So I work out the solution to the problem before the problem's really hit. Can you cope with the worst case scenario? If the answer's yes, done. It's that simple. I'm so pleased you're saying this because we have this conversation a lot on this podcast, you know, because I think we're called high performance. And I think some people feel that that means to listen to this, you need to want to be a millionaire or a CEO or an Olympian or something. All we're saying to people is, right, we've actually worked high performance down into three sentences.

30:45Do the best you can where you are with what you've got. Absolutely. It feels something like you've had your eyes opened to doing the best you can where you are with what you've got. What more can anyone ask of you? My God, I feel like I've gone from Stevie Wonder to Specsavers. like that's the best way to describe it I feel like I've lived so long with just not seeing anything in front of me and just grabbing and doing and living but was I really living it I work on Strictly I've done that for four years things can become routine to you I will now go to work and I will sit there and go our jobs we're lucky to do what we do but it is work and everyone has got the right, whether you're getting paid£2 or£2 million, to sit there and go, fuck, I don't want to go to work today.

31:34I can't believe I've got to go to work today, regardless of what it is. And sometimes I think, oh, I've got to go all the way there now. And then I go, do you remember 10 years ago? Do you remember when you would have literally cut your leg off to be in the background of this, let alone in the foreground of this? So it's just remembering what it means to you. and I feel like that is quite a fuel for me. My schedule's all over the shop and I will get to the point where I feel like, I just want a day off, I just want a day off. That's all right to think that. You haven't got to be grateful for everything every single second of the day.

32:12It's all right to sit there and go, well, do you know what? I don't fucking care. Give it to someone else then. It's all right to do that. It is all right to do that because we're all human and we're all normal people. My biggest lesson that I've learned when it comes down to my career and it's took me 10 years to learn is that people can be your colleagues but they're not necessarily your friends and that's no bad thing. And loyalty, when it comes down to this industry, is very few and far between when it comes down to companies, when it comes down to individuals, when it comes down to everything.

32:50But again, that's all right because it's what it is. You might not be able to change what it is, but you can always try and change your approach to how you deal with what it is. And that's what I feel like I'm doing now because I went to a shit place that I look at things and go, I can't control that. What can I do? I can either sit here for the next three days slagging everyone off, calling everyone a bastard and saying, he's a prick, that one's a prick. winding myself up or I can sit there and go to Barcelona for three days and have a walkabout I can't change what other people want to do and I can't change what people want all I can do is try and grab what I want and try and grab it with both hands So your comment there around colleagues and friends is an interesting one because in your book you've got chapters where you've got people that are in the public eye like Claire from Steps or, you know, you talk about Scott Mills and your friendship with him really deeply.

33:55So I'm interested in terms of what's the criteria for you to allow somebody into your friendship group now rather than just being a colleague? I feel that I can hand on heart say that I've got friends in this industry that I can count on one hand. One hand is more than enough for me. If I had two, great. If I had two hands, not a problem. I've got so many people in this industry. you both know what it's like that you'll see sporadically or see at an event or something like that where you go oh yeah no we're mates no we know each other there's that weird thing you also do where you've never met each other before but you know you know you're both on the telly so you're like hey big cuddle how's it going it's so nice to see us as kids and people are like do you know each other you're like never met them before don't know their name but that's fine that's part and parcel of the fun of it all it's a laugh but for me the way that I work out who's a friend and who's a acquaintance or a colleague a friend is someone like last year when you're at your lowest will try and do anything to help you so I remember you know I didn't want to see anyone I hadn't left the house um I became really agoraphobic bit my mum called Ruth and Eamon and they turned up at my house and I mean Eamon got really upset because I was clearly visibly very sick um as did Ruth and I didn't want to see them and I just remember breaking down going just get out I don't want to see anyone I don't want to see anyone they'd driven two hours to get there all of this but they did that they did that not because it's going on Instagram the following morning not because they're going to get kudos from people because they'd put it on Twitter for likes they did that because they cared they did that because they cared about me and they're people that are friends and I would do the same when Ruth lost her sister Ruth's sister passed away and it was very unexpected and really really upsetting I was there for her what did that do for you when they came to your house?

35:54reminded me there's life outside of the front door I didn't want it but it reminded me that fuck I was someone before all of this shit you forget that you're a person when you're going through that you forget that you've got a body you forget that you've got a brain and you forget that you've got a voice and they were obviously really really shocked at how I was speaking Claire did the same as well my mum did it with Claire as well which is why they're both in my book because they are Claire's like my sister Ruth and Eamon are like my mum and dad that's literally what they are but the bit that you've just said there that concerns me in some ways for people listening to this is that in the nine years prior to this where things are going well for you that you've not had that chance to test the friendship group so there must have been lots of people that are hangers-on or people that are just there for the ride or there because they wouldn't, the associated benefits with knowing it.

36:46I couldn't see, I didn't know what a red flag was. So, like, we sometimes use that phrase that people are with you for seasons, reasons, or lifetimes. Yeah. How would you determine then what other people can learn from your experience? It's such a difficult question because, like you said, sometimes I think you know, but you just let it happen anyway. Sometimes I think you really don't know if someone's there for the wrong reasons and it hits you like a baseball bat around the face if you do find out. I can only speak for waking up to actually what's going on around me and now I have no problem with sitting there going this isn't good for me or this situation isn't good for me that person isn't good for me so I don't how do you determine that?

37:35what are the red flags do you look for? well it depends whether you're looking at someone that you're dating it depends whether you're looking at someone that's your friend it depends whether it's someone who's in your family it depends on circumstance there's no formula I don't think to sit there and go right so this person is this, this, this and that oh no they're clearly in it for the wrong reasons let's get rid of them well it's interesting because when we spoke to Vicky Patterson on the podcast she had her her phone test was the way that she determined it So she said she divides some people up into the ones that energise you.

38:08She said the ones that leave you buzzing like an old fridge, was the phrase she used, didn't she? When you see the name on the phone, you go, oh, great, I want to answer it. Then she talks about the middle of the roaders, the ones that go, oh, fair enough, they're there. But then there's the draggers she told about, the ones that you go... You get the text and you go, oh, fuck, thank you. Yeah. And I'm interested in terms of, to follow up on Jake's question, like what do you do now that almost sets that same criteria that Vicky told us about? Again for me it's very much a mental thing and I think I led with my heart for so long which I don't think is a bad thing because my heart has got me into places that I'm grateful I did get to or experiences that I experienced but I always forget to use my head sometimes and I think now I'm finding that perfect balance of head and heart.

38:58Let's say it's dating. That's always an easy one to talk about. You meet someone, you get the heart, you get the little flutters and you're like, oh, I really like him, really like him. And then someone might say something to you where they flag something. Now, I've had this in my life that I've chose to ignore and then I'm in a situation. So this time, I mean, my real friends that are around me, and when I say real friends, I mean a very tight, tight circle, they might say something, and instead of me bat it away, I'll listen. And I'll go, okay, well, look, I'm going to look with fresh eyes on this.

39:37I could sit here and keep talking. I haven't got the answer for you, and I'm really, really sorry. And that's all right to say. I don't know how you work out who's right and who's wrong for you. But do you know what? you just know everyone I meet I think they're going to be the greatest person same they're going to lead to the most amazing opportunities this is the one but then I can't not live like that no because I the reason why I have that feeling is how things like this podcast get created or how you meet someone like Damien or how I end up asking you to come and be on here or how you like as soon as you close yourself down I think to being an open book emotionally and physically with people I'm like come on in come and see my whole life come and meet my family come and have Sunday lunch with us that's fine no one's saying don't do that I am not saying don't do that you live your life like that but when and if something isn't right it's about how you deal with it it's about whether you keep letting it slide and let it be part of your life or whether you take that plunge that jump and go I'm really sorry but this isn't right for me and no hard feelings whatever it is whether it's business whether it's friendship whether it's a relationship whether it's marriage whatever it is, I want to live my life and I do try and live my life.

40:54Anyone and everyone's welcome. Any opportunity, I'll look at. With work, there'll be things that come in that my management know I am never going to do in a million years. I still want to see it. I still want to see it to go, no, you're right. Yeah, yeah. Not because I don't trust them, but because I don't want to be in a situation where someone goes, oh, we asked you to do this and I ain't got a fucking clue what they're going on about but it's the same with people i want to live my life going you're going to be the nicest person i've ever met we're going to be friends forever and you're we're going to be like that until the day we die i'll i'll do that with you until you prove me otherwise until you prove me otherwise and it only takes something little but just know and then it's just how you deal with it i think we interviewed johnny wilkinson the rugby player that told us that that he said he had that idea that rather than talking about something's got to earn your trust why don't you just give it give it and then see what they do with that yeah as long as you're not giving anything that's going to hurt you as in like your heart's one thing trust is another thing yeah i will give you my trust straight away people it's very very strange because when people always go you know who is horrible blah blah blah and i'll go are they i'm the worst person to judge a character because people speak to me different in this industry like they will you too so people someone my wife used to work on strictly right right she was uh she used to look after the training teams she worked on big brother before that before you were on it she worked on i'm a celebrity like you name it she did the reality shows she did dancing on ice and she'd come home and i'll be like you're right she'd be like xyz i i can't believe the way they spoke to me or yeah blah blah blah totally ignored me today and i'm like what yeah they're the nicest people i know yeah and she's like yes because you're on the telly because then a few weeks later we're like at the bbc or whatever when you used to be at tv center and that person would come up to us and be like, hey, nice to see you, Jake.

42:43How's it going? I go, this is my, at the time, girlfriend. They're like, ah. Yeah. Yeah, we were. She's like, exactly. Listen, that goes through whether you work in a supermarket or at the Super Bowl. Like, it doesn't matter. But you look how someone treats the lowest person in the room. My manager was my runner on Big Brother. There you go. And he's been with me for nearly nine years. Eight years, sorry. and he is almost like my eyes and ears because he would sit there and go, that one was so rude to me when I was a runner on Dancing on Ice. That one was so rude to me. This is my industry, so I'm going to meet these people.

43:24I'll have someone on the show, like on my radio show or something like that and he'll go, like made a girl cry, made a bloke. But you know I pick people up on it now. No, I've been in situations where I've seen someone talk to a runner like shit and it wasn't the first time I've seen this happen but I felt before that that I wasn't at maybe a level or a stature or something like that where I could say something you know yeah and then yeah a couple of years back I was in a situation and I saw someone talk it wasn't even my show weren't even my show I was a guest on a on a show and I just heard I could just hear it but almost weirdly see it before it happened because you do don't you you know you see it and i saw someone speak to a runner like shit just because they'd bought the wrong coffee and this runner was about 17 and i just went who the fuck are you talking to and i just saw the face drop like what what what i went are you just are you joking and they were like oh no no i didn't mean it like that with no fucking damage it's done now i said come on babe i literally took the coffee for it on the floor i went go and get your own fucking coffee and i took her outside and i went come let's go and have a fag 10 years ago when i come into this industry there was still this lag and hangover of how people were treated back in the day when you started and stuff like that i'm not saying it was you you're a lovely bloke but like when you must have seen a load of stuff telly has changed this industry has changed how things work how people are treated i think i joined at a time when there's that lag still of people can still talk to people a bit like shit we now live in a day and age where it's like, well, you can't say this, you can't say that.

45:02I'm saving it all for my book. What TV was like in the early 2000s. I tell you. I tell you, it was a different place. But yeah, no, I won't stand for it. You know, when I worked at Big Brother, my exec producer was on the same level as a day runner that didn't even work on the show. Everyone is the same. And that's how I like to work on my shows. I don't care about hierarchy. When people go, you're the host. I go, so? Yeah. I don't care. Oh, you're the exec. I don't care. everyone's got their own their own opinion and it's a team you either work as a team or you don't and yeah I've I lost people along the way in work when I'd be in an office of 30 odd people at Big Brother someone would come in if I see someone talk to someone like shit they won't be there the next day no one's too big to put the bins out it's an important point see but I think that's a really important point because I think there's people listening to this that as you're telling us this anecdote you're remembering stuff well I'm I'm thinking of people that I know that would really behoovering this up because they're in situations where what you described, I didn't feel I had the status or I didn't feel I had enough credit in the bank to call out that behaviour and do it.

46:09The example you use with that guy who the fuck do you think you are with the coffee is one example of being able to do it. But what tips or advice could you give us to do it in maybe a less abrasive or confrontational way that, you know, you're working in an office where you think, I'm going to be working with this person for the next few years so I don't want to I think it's again everything's circumstantial so if your boss is an arsehole your boss is an arsehole like and you going up to him and speaking really politely and saying this I really didn't like the way that you spoke to me then I don't want to make a thing of it but it really made me feel crap that you spoke to me like that for all I know your boss would go fuck off you're sacked I don't know yeah yeah I think it's circumstantial but I'm the sort that if I see something like an injustice or something like that, I'm full steam ahead.

47:00Do you feel that's a learned behaviour you've seen from your mum of that combative, get on the front foot? Yeah, absolutely. I'll never forget. I think I was in year nine or something and some guy was starting on me and whatever. And one morning I just took so much shit from people. I'm never a fighter. I'll floor someone with words. one morning I just had enough and I punched him in the face and knocked him out obviously I was excluded there and then on the spot my mum come and got me, she was so proud she took me up a sandwich I've always just been brought up to treat people right, treat people how you want to be treated but defend yourself if someone's being an arsehole to you being in the position that I'm in defending myself at times sometimes isn't worth it because it causes a media thing or it causes more to pipe up because they feel that they can and stuff like that.

47:58But in a situation where I see a runner being spoken to like shit for no reason, that's when Ryland becomes Ross at work. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and coverage on the nation's largest 5G network. Honestly, the quality is just as good, if not better, than what I had before.

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50:13can i ask you then how you deal with criticism generally and if we go right back to the start of your career i've got the the quotes here gary barlow a joke act talentless and he actually in your instagram bio what does it say she started off as a joke and still laughing i imagine that did hurt at the time oh at the time and again talking about my family my brother who's 14 years older than me my mum are listening to Gary Barlow and they're wanting to knock him out but I would sit there and go let it happen because all of this happening it's working for me this is working for me how quickly did you realize that week two week one of the live shows I was in the bottom two and that killed me that week I wanted to leave I was walking out I was like Me too, something just clicked and I thought, this could be my thing.

51:10And I think where a lot of people go wrong on them shows is that they don't realise they're the joke. I was in on it. So I played up to the joke. So the next week I came out to sing Gangnam Style, as you do. But I started it with Back for Good, take that, just for a laugh. And everyone was like, but I thought, you want to play that game? I'll play the game. And I was in on the joke. I knew what I was doing. And yes, it hurt. I mean, I got actual death threats when I was unexpected to the point where I had to have security. Someone was in the hotel that we were living in. Why is that? What was the logic?

51:44Why would somebody want to do that? Oh, they got my room number, everything, saying they were going to come in and slice my neck open in the night. Like, I don't care if someone calls me talentless. I don't care if someone says big toothpick. I don't care. It's like, I've got money in the bank. I'm fine, but when someone's saying, I can see you currently on your balcony of your room 401. Oh, shit. and I've got a key card because I work here and I'm going to slice your neck in your sleeve. Then you sit there and go, fuck, that's a bit too much information that they know. You know, and so it's things like that.

52:15And that's obviously difficult. But actually, again, I'm glad I had the rocky start. I'm glad I just didn't have a, oh, he's good, lovely. Well, I'm interested how you are with it today because let's be totally frank, right? And I want to be totally clear for people listening to this. The last thing you are is a joke. Thank you. to have any length of a TV career is remarkable, right? You've done 10 years, not just 10 years, over 10 years at the absolute top of the game. Like all the dreams. You want to meet the Spice Girls when you were younger, you've done it. Everybody wants to be on Radio 2, you've done it.

52:45You love Big Brother, you went on it. Not only that, you ended up hosting it. You went on The X Factor and created your career. You love Eurovision, you've ended up hosting Eurovision. Like, you just can't, there's nothing that you wanted to take. Still can't get a fella. What's going on? look where your brain goes straight up but like everything you wanted to do you've done yeah that does not happen by accident no I know I know so how are you now with the criticism because I just don't know whether you get the credit you deserve for what you've achieved and I'd love to know whether you feel you do and whether you care and I'm talking to Ross not Ryland right now I want to sit here and say I can laugh it off if ever I get criticism and nine times out of ten I do there's one times out of ten that sometimes it will get me a bit and I think do you know how hard I've worked on this or something like that I like some criticism because I think it keeps me grounded and I think it reminds me that I'm not invincible we know there's a lot of people in this industry whose feet do leave the floor and they turn into idiots I'm lucky that mine is still on the ground and I think that's weirdly played a part in it I like knowing not everyone likes me because the biggest compliment anyone can give me is and it's the normal thing that I always get and the one compliment I probably get the greatest satisfaction from I used to hate you when you were on The X Factor but I love your Radio 2 show or I used to think you were an idiot I get more satisfaction converting people into oh he's actually alright than getting the love in the first place I love it Brilliant.

54:28Can I talk to you about how you've done it though? Because there'll be people listening to this with a dream and an ambition. I want to know how you end up in a career as cutthroat as TV and you navigate your way through. And please don't say it's by accident. And please don't say you don't know because the truth is that you do know. And it takes careful planning and it takes thought. The sleeping around. I'm joking. Going back to the very beginning.

54:53Quickly navigating and grasping the fact of the stereotype I needed to be was the first step. Realising your role on that show and in TV at that time. The X Factor at its point, it was massive. It was a singing show. But it's also a TV show. Now working in TV, you understand there are boxes. Everyone's got a box. Whether you are just average, you're in the average box. It doesn't matter. You're either the gay one, you're the this one, you're the that one, you're the that one. I knew very quickly when I was looking around, I'm the joke one. Fine. How do I make myself work with this? And obviously I played the game.

55:41I played along. You want to put me in feather boas and a light up jumpsuit? Do it. that's absolutely fine if I earn a couple of grand out of this and get two weeks on the live shows do a couple of gay club appearances I can buy myself a new car because the other one just blew up great that's how I looked at it I didn't have big expectations I knew I had it in me so then coming out of x-factor knowing at this point because I'd already had one dodgy conversation at an x-factor live show that big brother wanted me to go in the house I knew I was going into big brother and I thought that's my chance to show Ross rather than Rylan everyone thinks Rylan is this character on X Factor I might go out first and if I do go out first that means knowing big brother and it being a celebrity version I've got five days to show that if I'm evicted first and I walked into celebrity big brother and I was just being myself I'd sit there with no makeup on hand down me trousers being mates with Razor Ruddock and Frankie Dottori sitting there drinking beer taking the piss out of cafe bill because we found it funny like you know that's what it was and then people just went oh he's not this idiot singing a Spice Girl mega mix flying down from a trellis in the ceiling it's actually quite normal then I won I was like right there's a small bit of validation that I've played this right so I need to keep doing this now then I got offered the job at Big Brother, but I'm not a presenter.

57:08And I was like, how am I going to do this? Because I'm not a presenter. And you know, when you present, you've got 40 people talking in one ear, you've got to listen to this person. Luckily enough, I found it really easy. And I still do. And I love my job. And I prefer live TV to pre-rec because I'm in control of it, a control thing again, but I enjoy it. But the best thing that I ever did, and I still stand by it, was get my teeth done the day before I started hosting Big Brother because they were so fucking big and so white and I was so swollen that for the few weeks I was learning on the job, on live TV, to be a presenter on my apprenticeship.

57:55People were so busy talking about my teeth. No one knew I was a shit presenter. And by the time they got used to my teeth, I could do a fucking good job of my job. And that was it. What a story. And what about the moment where you have to go and say, now take me seriously. You know, like Radio 2 don't employ Ryland from The X Factor. They probably almost certainly don't employ Ryland from Big Brother. They probably would not employ even Ryland from doing a bit of hosting. There has to be a moment where you go and say, right, now take me seriously. This is what I am. And there's some good lessons here for our listeners.

58:30So one thing for me is when you do a radio show, you don't physically DJ. Obviously, it's all system. It's all computer. It's all this. Radio is 10 times harder than TV, 100%, because everything has to be your voice. You have to be happy with your voice, sad with your voice, sincere with your voice, and joking with your voice. You can't do the little eye look to camera four. You can't do that. I said, I'm not going to get taken seriously getting this job because I understand it's the biggest radio station in Europe. People would kill to have a show on radio too, which I completely understand. I've got a good knowledge of music and I really love my music, but I'm not a DJ.

59:10So I went and learned with Pioneer how to be a proper DJ. So I wanted to sort of almost have credibility for something I didn't even need it for. Because at Radio 2, I haven't got decks in front of me. It doesn't work like that. But I wanted to have that credibility. So I started doing DJ gigs and I started going out. And then I started getting booked more because people were going, it's actually really good. and every time I'd go to a place, people would be shocked that I was actually DJing because the last celeb DJ that they booked would literally just press play on a playlist and just look like they're doing something.

59:45I could easily earn a couple of grand going somewhere and pressing a button and just putting my hands up and going, yeah. I want to be taken seriously, but I also still want to have a laugh with it. So how important is hard work for you? so I want to say this and it not come across the wrong way I'm not working down a mine I get that but I do work hard my job starts the second I walk out of my gate because I'm Ryland not because I'm Ross, because I'm Ryland so I'm at work the second I come outside of the gates purely because of the sheer fact of every single move I make if I crash into a car if I do this, that's Ryland it's not Ross that's how it is but I think the genius of what you've described on that journey that you've been on since that X-Factor is almost like you know in judo they talk about the art of judo is use what your opponent does against them and I think the fact that you recognise you know I mean pigeonhole there's a joke here let's use that against them and they'll play it that's the best one with attack as well is when someone sits there and goes, you were such an idiot on X Factor.

1:00:59I go, I know. What do I say to that then? Brilliant. What do you say to that? It's like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, no, I was fannying about in a febboa. You couldn't sing. It was like, I wasn't singing on X Factor. I had 20 battery packs strapped to my back and my nipples came off because I was wearing a gold Chanel chainmail vest. I sliced both my nipples open during a performance of Spandau Ballet Gold. like do you think I was going to stand there and sing whilst I'm being pushed around on a shopping trolley dressed as an Egyptian not happening today and it's like I love it I love it I love it when people go you can't sing oh you were this and I go yeah no no no because that weren't that and I'm like great do it how would you not know if I've had three number ones already under a different name you wouldn't no it could come out one day that I've could I have but have you I'd never tell you until I'm ready you just don't know do you?

1:01:58No. See but the thing that really intrigues me on this is that you've done that, you've leaned into it you've used that sort of resistance as your best form of attack and yet it seems like when that crash happened for you to go back to that that was one of the few times where you've almost not done that. You know what I mean? The only time I've not done that. Yeah and I think there's something significant about that that you've resisted it for so long that eventually you've tripped up used against you. I fell over. Yeah. I fell over and I think a massive lesson that I learnt is sometimes you think why am I so nice to people?

1:02:38Why do I always say yes when someone asks for a photo? Why do I sit there and do the extra hour at work just because of someone else's fuck up? Why do I do this? And actually I've learnt the reason why I do that is because last year when you fall down you're going to need help getting back up and everyone waited for me. I didn't lose one job. They didn't move on to the next. Everyone helped me get back up the stairs again because I always helped them. And that's important to me, is that people think I'm decent. That's important to Ross. Lovely. Before we move on to our quick fire questions, the last thing is about happiness.

1:03:20You finish your book with, there's one thing on my list, be happy. I can't wait for the day I tick this box what is happiness? I'll let you know when I get it I don't know yet I need to work it out and is there a sadness that you've had this amazing career you've done all these things that young Ross would never have believed yet you can't sit here and tell us what happiness is I can look at it two ways I can look at it as it's really sad that you say that or I can look at it as an opportunity again. And I look at it as an opportunity because everything always becomes normal to some extent, whether that's the job you do, the relationship you're in, not having money in the bank or having money in the bank.

1:04:11Everything becomes normal. And I've learned that what I thought would be a pinnacle is just another step. a great one but it's a step so going on X Factor that was like the pinnacle I was like oh my god going into the big brother house oh my god that's the pinnacle hosting it that is the pinnacle and then you realise what's next though there's always something else I'm glad I'm like that that's not me chasing that's me keeping myself ambitious and keeping myself excited to a point always think thinking when will I get there I think in the back of my mind I will never get there because I'll always be waiting or looking and stuff and that's not a bad place to be because I actually quite like the feeling of what's next what's next but I think from a happiness point of view for me I think that's being with someone that I want to share everything with that is the right person that supports what I do that supports me as much as I can support them in all different aspects I think that's when I'll be able to tick a box and go I'm alright and keep doing what I'm doing you know what I think the freedom that you've now found actually allows you to meet that person I don't think that you, two or three or four, five, six, seven years ago, would ever even meet that person.

1:05:46No. Because the freedom wasn't there to look for the right person. No, yeah. I think I had an idea of what I wanted. I wanted a husband and a Range Rover. I've still got the Range Rover. I mean, can I ask you a bit of an intrusive question, Ryland? And you don't have to answer this. You? Intrusive? Yeah, sorry. But when you talk about this journey on this quest for happiness, do you still use therapy or some kind of coaching or support now? I actually don't. Which is strange because a lot of times you would hear people go, yeah, I still see my therapist, or whether it be once a year, once a month, once a day.

1:06:26I don't because actually the therapist I worked with was great. She was a really amazing woman and I didn't want to tell her anything at first. And actually I realised that when I did start being honest with her, it worked and it helped. I just, I have association. So like fragrance for argument's sake, I'll smell a certain fragrance and boom, I'm back in Ibiza, my first ex-boyfriend. Oh, I remember that smell. You know, I'm back somewhere. If I was to go and have therapy now, I think it's just reminding me of a time and a feeling of how I felt. And I just don't need it. I don't want that at the minute.

1:07:08If I felt that I wanted to do it again, I would. No questions about it. But I don't have therapy. I've learnt to try and give myself therapy and remind myself what's important, wake up and go, okay, this is right. Talk to the pheasant. Patrice. Yeah, Patrice loves it. But yeah, I feel like I want to try and do this on my own. and the day that I can't do things on my own, that's when I ask for help. Brilliant. Simple as that. Right, time for our quickfire questions. Oh, God, right. Here we go.

1:07:46What are the three non-negotiable behaviours that you and ideally the people around you as well have to buy into? Lying, not having it, rudeness and just being a dickhead in general. What's your biggest weakness and your greatest strength? biggest weakness is probably anything to do with my appearance my greatest strength is anything to do with my appearance do you think that ever changes because we've all seen the photo that gets passed around of young rylan ginger hair freckles no that's how i see myself still but that's why i say my biggest weakness is my appearance because i'm not i don't love the way that i look but my biggest strength is my appearance because when i paint it all on i I can go out and give it.

1:08:29But that's a lack of confidence that you shouldn't have because you look great. So will you ever be at a point, do you think, where less of Ryland and more of Ross is on show to the general public? I don't know. I'd like to. Yeah. But I don't know yet. Where were you? Where are you? And where are you going? Where was I was somewhere great. Where am I in a period after somewhere not great? where am I going back to where I started what's the thing that people get wrong most that will misunderstand about you that I'm actually a boy at heart and even though there's a full face of makeup on and stuff like that I'm actually quite normal I actually am very run of the mill normal is there one question we should have asked you but we didn't yeah what was it that's your job I'll think long and hard about it it involved long and hard nice should we go there?

1:09:35high performance I mean let's talk about that you could bring your own tablets out true high performance and finally then what's your one final message for listeners about living a high performance life my final message would be what works for me might not work for you what works for you might not work for me but in a very short amount of time I've seen quite a lot and I have dealt with quite a lot and I'm still dealing with quite a lot just be good at doing what you want to do but just don't forget who you are because I did and that's when it all fucks up Brilliant mate thank you so much for doing that thank you

1:10:23Damien Jake what an interesting conversation with someone who is definitely obviously in a much better place than he was at you know a few months ago but I still get the impression that he's on a real a real journey there was times there where I felt like it was Ross we were talking to but there's also moments where you see that the mask of Ryland comes into the fore yeah it must be confusing in some ways that that split identity and I think that's what in Ryland's answers that he almost lost sight of that the you know the little boy that got bullied that sort of kid I think to lose sight of that was obviously caused a lot of the problems that there's a theory called the quiet man in the room theory which is almost like your subconscious is always there talking and it but it speaks quietly and if you don't listen to it eventually it'll start to scream and make enough noise or enough of a scene that you pay attention to it and i couldn't help but think whether that was what had happened with ryland that the idea of he as he said he threw a bomb into his own world and whether that was the quiet man in the room of ross saying i need you to pay attention to me i need you to give me some of the care and love and attention that i deserve and i think that you know in the same way that some people said vicky patterson why is she on high performance only when she came on do people go now I get it I think there'll be a lot of people that have listened to that conversation with Ryland that at the beginning would have said well the guy from X Factor on high performance and it's only when you hear about how he dealt with the criticism on X Factor how he managed to control what happened to him on Big Brother what he did to get himself a great broadcasting career the way that he managed to deal with the breakdown in his relationship what he's done to grow from that the advice he gives people who are going through mental health problems what he said about hard work and being the nicest person in the room.

1:12:15He is the absolute epitome of high performance because high performance is not just a case of kind of making the best of yourself and getting your own version of high performance, which he absolutely has. It's a reminder that it's small, daily, basic things that he knows he can do that has given him the most incredible career, wealth he couldn't have imagined, opportunities that he never would have believed. He's absolutely the epitome of high performance in my mind. Yeah, definitely. I mean, when I was sat there, I was sort of, I always feel privileged when we do this anyway, and I especially feel privileged when guests are so candid and open that it feels like they're letting us into their world and that's not something that I know you or I take lightly.

1:12:57And I was sat there thinking, what a broad church that we've had in terms of our guests when you think of whether it's been people that might be traditionally defined as alpha males, whether it's special elites, force soldiers, or whether it has been Vicky Patterson or in this case here Rylan. They're all high performance in our definition of it. This isn't about what you said to Rylan, striving to become the millionaire, the top of the shop, the CEO. This is just about doing the best you can in your moment. And this is an ordinary man that's gone into an extraordinarily competitive world of broadcasting.

1:13:34And yet, like you say, he's sustained a career far longer than lots of more maybe obviously talented people. That deserves further exploration and I hope people have sort of shifted their opinion and again understood the power of empathy. He's a great guy. Yeah, I loved it. It was a real privilege to listen to him. And that brings us to the end of today's episode with Ryland. Huge thanks to him and big thanks to you as well for listening to this episode. Look, the podcast wouldn't exist without our community. So thank you so much for the support you've shown myself, Damien and the whole team this year and we know you have so much choice when making a decision about which podcast to listen to so we are hugely grateful aren't we Damien?

1:14:15Absolutely Jake anyone that gives us any of their time because we appreciate it's at a premium we're always incredibly appreciative of it so thank you. And we're back very soon with plenty more from High Performance.

1:14:36Thank you.

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