Sarina Wiegman: “I don’t care about making mistakes” (E224)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health.

0:31H-P-A-P-P for access. Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jay Comfrey and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, the successes and the struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up. The fundament of this team was there already. If you make the semi-final three times in a row, then they've done a really good job. So when we came in, I just thought, okay, what's going really well? And what can we add to make the next step?

1:13My sister got diagnosed with cancer right before the Olympics. So before the tournament, we knew she was going to pass away because she went really downhill. But at that moment that you become European champions, it's so emotional. I didn't even know I was doing that. You're not even aware anymore. that I felt so connected with her that it was just a really nice moment. That's one of the most incredible sports moments of my life. So that noise, I will never forget that noise. I probably knew you were there.

1:50So welcome along to our conversation with the head coach of the Lionesses, Serena Wiegman. not only a conversation with Serena, but a conversation in front of 800 people in a packed venue in central London. So for the last couple of years, we have had so many people messaging us, telling us who they'd like to hear on high performance. And Serena is regularly the most requested name. People are fascinated by how she came into English football and turned England from a nation that gets close, but doesn't quite win things to a nation that does win things. and in this conversation we're going to find out how she's done that look we know that she's won two euros with the dutch and with england we know she's made it to two world cup finals those are the things that she's done what we dive into with serena is how she's done it and this is so rare you know serena protects herself she doesn't do a lot of media she isn't especially comfortable putting herself in the limelight but on this occasion she decided to do that and we are so proud that she chose High Performance as the only place to do a live show this year.

2:56And it's time for you to hear that conversation. I think you're going to love this as we welcome the head coach of the Lionesses, Serena Vigman, to High Performance.

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4:52Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for the incredible Serena Biesman!

5:04Hi. I think they're pleased to see you. Yeah, thank you. It's a little overwhelming. Look, there's lots of young ladies in the audience this evening. Damien and myself both have daughters. We've got some inspirational female athletes in the crowd as well tonight. Are you aware when you're doing these incredible things, Serena, that you are breaking down doors for people to walk through in the future? I don't think I'm aware enough. Moments like this, I say, wow, well, we're done. But you just keep going. So you play a tournament. It had been successful twice, four times actually. and then with the Netherlands and then with England and then just within three weeks you have next measures to come up.

5:50So you just try to relax a little bit and then you move on. Okay, well, as you know, we're recording tonight for the High Performance Podcast. So the first question always is, what does high performance represent to you? Yeah, that's quite simple. It's performing at the highest level, at your highest level, at our highest level, under the highest pressure. and there's so much more around that but that's basically what it is and focus is is vital as well um we've read your book excellent book and you talk so often in the book about focus when was the first time that you remember focusing on football and thinking that actually that that could be a real route for you yeah the first time i really thought okay this could something when i played in the netherlands football of course when i started it was not allowed but at the age of 12 12, 13, the Dutch FA started a selection group from under 14, and I got selected for that.

6:48And that was so cool. Like, it was just a regional thing, but I thought, oh, this is what I want. This is really cool. And you tell the story in the book about having to cut your hair at a young age as well, Serena. Would you tell us about that? Yeah, you were not allowed to play football as a girl, and I wanted to play football. So I thought, when I cut my hair, I look like a boy and I can play. and my parents thought it was really nice my twin brother was going to play I think he came with me at that time to play football and I yeah and my parents never made problem we just you just do what you like and that's what I did and one of the themes that keeps coming through again in your book is your openness to feedback the willingness to seek feedback and then to act on it and do something about it would you tell us a little bit more about the importance of that?

7:34Yeah, I think if you want to grow, if you want to develop, you need to be critical. And you also always have to look at the things or review the things that are going really well. And the things that go really well, you want to make even better because those are your strengths. And it's really nice to know your strengths. But also the things that are not going very well, you want to improve. And if no one tells you and you're not aware of that, how are you going to grow so you have to yeah someone has to tell you if you don't um if you're not aware of it yourself and of course in the beginning when you don't have that much confidence and you're still finding your way when someone's critical it's really hard to take but the the more experience you get the the better you become the more confidence you get you think okay i'm already good but if i can do that better that makes me even a better player or a better a coach so have you got any examples of when you were a player yourself of receiving some incredible feedback that that made a significant difference to you yeah i had when i played uh when i played we didn't do video analysis so i never watched myself back and i think this that now is really good because you just you see the facts and you still can discuss about decision making because football's a game where the ball's always open so you can make different decisions but you want to make the best decision in possession, out of possession.

8:53It's very technical. But like I had a coach when I was with the national team. He's actually now the coach of the Dutch national team. He coached me too. And he just, at that time, I was coming from midfield to in defense. And he just taught me a couple of things like passing, the moment of passing. And that helped me a lot. so yeah and like I we had the discussion thought well that passed way too far and I can't get it yeah you can get it so it's a little bit giving feedback but also giving me the trust that I could do it so that really helped me at that point and at some point in your life things changed from you wanting to be a footballer to you wanting to develop footballers and one thing I really loved about the book is your constant references to developing people.

9:46You know, you talk actually far more in the book about people than you do about results and football and tactics. So where did this develop then, this desire to help other people be the very best that they can be? I just really, I want to develop myself all the time too. And this is something part of me. When I was in elementary school, I already knew I was, I wanted to be a PE teacher. I wanted to work with people and I wanted to be in sports and when I was seven eight years old there was no women coaches there were no female footballers or professional footballers so what we always say what you see you can be I could not be a coach so I wanted to be a PE teacher so that has always been part of me and I was always looking and searching for improvement and growth and that's yeah it gives me energy I want to really want to win I really want to win but it brings back to what you have to do to win and if I can have a little contribution to people like even with staff members also with players with developing in their game or as a person that really gives me energy.

10:53So we get a lot of teachers that listen to the podcast Serena so what skills did you learn when you were working in the teaching profession that people would still recognize that you're employed today as the head coach? Yeah, I think the education in the Netherlands takes four years, the PE education. I think that has been really crucial for my development as a coach, like my experience as a player. Having played in the US also, having played in the Netherlands and the PE education, you learn about people. You learn about physiology. You learn about psychology. you learn how to teach. So, organizing, I think PE teachers, a lot of them here, I think, we can really good organize a lesson, I think.

11:39So, that's, you know, you structure methodology also. So, you know, how you structure coaching, like training sessions, that really relates to how you teach, how you do a lesson, a PE lesson. So, that really helped me. but all the things around it about learning about the brains, learning about team dynamics, things like that. I'm really interested in that too. Well, let's talk about that then, because the job really of a head coach or indeed a teacher is to get to people's hearts, not to people's heads, right? So what would you share maybe with the teachers in the room or the business leaders in the room or the parents in the room about how we can get to people's hearts, not just their heads?

12:21Talk and listen. First listen, but when you want people to talk, you have to ask a question. Otherwise people won't talk. I think that's a big learning lesson. Like every human being is unique and how people learn things, they learn in different ways too. So what you're trying to do, if you want, like in my environment, you want to talk to players and first connect because I truly believe when you connect with people you understand better and then you can support them better too you can help them better in their development. How do you connect? To get to know each other and that's you have to share stories with each other and you have to talk to each other and listen to each other and then when you connect you when you do that and you get to know each other better then you understand each other better too and when you do that and you know what your purpose is then you can give constructive feedback too because we all know where we want to go to and then they will accept it i think that's what i believe in how do you balance up that with getting your message across because we've had the amazing jill scott on the high performance podcast and we actually said to her go on what's your first memory of meeting serena and she said uh she said well normally when you meet someone like there's a few jokes for a few minutes and you have a bit of a laugh and soften each other up and then they might say by the way this is what i expect and she said serena came in and went this is what i expect and jill was like where are the jokes um so i think this is an interesting conversation to have where you're like well you need to get to know people but you also obviously need to get your message across and you seem to do it quickly and directly yeah they they tell me i'm really direct And it seems to be Dutch.

14:08Now, look, when I came in in September 21, I met the team. Of course, I knew the team because I had followed them and we played them several times. And we met at Monday and we had our first game on Friday. So I first needed to give some clarity what the week would look like. So I came in and said, well, this is my philosophy of coaching. This is who I am. I showed a picture of my family too. So I shared some private things. And I said, well, this is the structure of the week. So we have meetings there and I tried to keep it really simple, but it had to be very clear what the week looked like, what my philosophy was like.

14:45We're not really going into detail because that came all over across the week, but that had to be clear because we had to play on Friday. And then over that first week, we had individual conversations with players. Arjen and I did that. My assistant coach who came with me is also from the Netherlands. And then we started to ask the questions, you know, what made this team so good? And what do we need to do to make this team even better and get to the next stage? And then we started to work, you know, more personal questions, which they wanted to share or not. That's up to them. There's loads for us to pick up there.

15:20Just one quick one. And I hope you don't mind being personal just for a moment. Like you said, you told them about you. What did you choose to tell the Lionesses the first time you met them about you? And why did you choose to tell them what you told them? I found it important to tell them what my values were. What were they? My values are respect. I always try to treat everyone with respect. Growth, development and clarity. So I gave clarity straight away. This is how we're going to do. And I didn't say this is how we're going to play and things. we tried to figure out how they had, and of course I'd seen that too, so like the fundament of this team was there already, if you make the semi-final three times in a row, then they've done a really good job, so when we came in, I just thought, okay, what's going really well, and what can we add to make the next step, because there was already a big fundament, talking about Jill, so coming back on that it's a nice story so what we did to try to connect like jill is probably like i the linus they're incredible and they're all unique and different personalities and i really i'm so proud of them what they do on the pitch but also how they change the society in a positive way but jill is just the most special person i've ever met like it's just incredible how she does everything now too she's all over the place all over the world and she's always smiling so a couple of camps then we wanted to connect so what we did we paired players and staff and we gave them a task to talk to talk about themselves and get connected and i um i mixed up with jill so we went out for walk atst george's park and she said that that she felt a little uncomfortable i thought jill uncomfortable i've never ever seen her uncomfortable and then we said then it fell apart and we really had very nice conversations and got really connected and talked all about personal stuff Lovely.

17:19And I'm interested in the answer you got back, Serena, to those two questions when you went into the lionesses of what did they regard they were already doing well and what were the key things they felt they could do better? Yeah, I haven't asked them if I can share that with the world. So I'll be a little general. They said... They're not going to tell you off though, are they? No, I know. Right. You're literally the boss. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, they said under the highest pressure, they sometimes didn't stick to the plan because they were trying really hard but start doing their own thing and didn't support them good enough.

17:57So what we really, and we saw that too. So yes, everyone works so hard but you have to stick with the plan because then you become accountable. So that's mainly what they said. And what brought them so far is that we have enough quality. We have so many good players. We just need to take the next step. So they say to you, when it really matters, we don't quite manage to get there. What's your job then with that information? I'm really interested how you process that message and then along with Arjen work out how do we solve the problem. Yeah, and not only with Arjen, with the whole staff, basically technical staff.

18:32So yes, we asked these questions. We made a summary of that and gave it back to the team and said, oh, this is what we got out of the individual conversations. And there were also a couple of things that they wanted some more clarity. about how we're going to play. So then you come to a moment, they say, okay, who are we? Why are we together? Of course, it's the best players of the country to come together and we want to win. Then you have to give clarity how we want to play, how we can win and what behaviors are part of that winning environment. So that's what you're working on all the time, clarity on so many things and how we treat each other, how we want to play, what's expected in training sessions, So that's a big story around that.

19:19So what were the behaviours that the team identified they wanted to embody? Keep doing the things together. Well, then from the feedback we get, we said, okay, when we have a plan, we have to stick to the plan. But within that plan, so style of play, so you also have to feel the freedom to make your own decisions on the pitch. so what we just said football is the ball's always open so it's all about decision making but in our principles of play we know how we want to attack we know how we want to defense and what we want to do in transition moments and then when you do your task really well you become very accountable and that's what we speak about all the time but you're always also allowed to make mistakes because football and life is absolutely making mistakes if you never make a mistake you're not developing because then you don't take action well there's a brilliant bit in your book where One of your players describes almost like that light bulb moment when you came in and said, you can make mistakes here, you're okay to do that.

20:21Would you tell us about that instantly? Yeah, when we came in, I noticed that some players in training, things went well, but then we played the game, and I thought, they don't take action. They just pass the ball to Nani, so you make that decision. I thought, we're so much better than this. So I just encouraged them to take action, and when you take action, you can do something extraordinary and you can make a mistake. But at least you can learn from those things and you show who you are too. So you have to take action. And if you make the same mistake five times in a row, then we have a problem and the player has a problem too.

20:59So you do have to learn from your mistakes. There's the clarity that she talks about. Cheers. But would you do the same, Serena? If you made a mistake, whether it was setting up a team tactically or you picked the wrong personnel, would you go in and admit that mistake to them? I would admit. And accepting mistakes for myself is harder than for mothers. Yeah, I bet. Talking of making mistakes, it's one thing making a mistake on a training pitch. It's another thing entirely making a mistake in a major competition, right? And I'm really interested in the story of when you were with the Dutch squad before you joined the Lionesses.

21:37and you deliberately put them under stress. You deliberately added issues and problems into the training camp. I'd love you to share the story if you would happily do that. Yeah, what we did, that was right before the Euros 2017. And we were doing okay, but you could feel that we weren't, as a team, we weren't honest enough. And how did you feel that? Well, when a mistake was made, you saw body language, but it didn't say anything to each other. And I thought, if that's going to happen in an opening game against Norway, under the highest pressure, then you see the real behaviors, because then it comes out.

22:17So what you want to do is have those moments before you are under the highest pressure. So I thought, we have to do something to get people annoyed so things happen. So what we saw, someone made mistakes and then got annoyed and started doing other things. So not doing her task anymore. But when you have 11 plays on the pitch and one player stops doing her task, I just said a couple of times, then the team doesn't count on her anymore. And that's not what you want. Because then as a team, you don't play good enough. So we tried to organize that. We were always horrible referees when we referee ourselves.

22:54But now we even, on purpose, were even worse than horrible. So they got really annoyed. And what we saw in the training session, we filmed all the training sessions, that they started doing totally different things. Like the center defender was just going into attack and trying to do it all on her own. And I thought, okay, that's good. But they got so pissed off that they started, of course, blaming me being a bad referee. And I got really pissed off too. So it actually had influenced mine too. So I thought, well, this is not what I meant. I should stay calm and they should really get annoyed.

23:28So then after that training camp, everyone went home. and I thought, okay, leave them. And I had some time also to relax. So then in the weekend, I called a couple of players and said, okay, this is what happened. We can make a huge step with the team now. Do you want to contribute to that? And of course, they wanted to contribute to that. So they thought about it. Other players jumped in. So the opening meeting for the next moment we came together, they took the floor and said, okay. And we showed the clip that not doing the task anymore. and not being accountable and what we had to do to make this or to prevent this or to behave better as a team and as a team player.

24:08And that was really, really helpful. I love that. One of the things that you seem to have this ability to do is to work out the moment that you need to have an impact on your squad. You know, there are times where you can allow things just to carry on, but there's moments where you obviously feel, hold on, I need to impact things here. How do you judge when the right time is to step in? I try to prepare as good as possible and together with the staff. So whenever we go into camp, that's for training sessions, but it's also for games, and I think I should relate this to games. So you have your style of play, you have analyzed your opponent, you make your game plan related to the opponent you play against, and then you try to turn every stone so you're prepared as good as possible.

24:53And when you do that, then when the moment comes and you play the game, you just have to observe really well, and then it comes to your intuition. because you have prepared everything. And then what you see... So that's why I think you should stay calm because the calmer you are, the better you can observe, the better decisions you can make. And then it's feeling what you have to do. So, for example, when we played playoffs with the Netherlands, so we became European champions. Then we lost one game against Norway and we had to play playoffs to qualify for the World Cup. And we played Switzerland.

25:30and we won the first game 3-0. And everyone thought, oh, we're there. And then I thought, okay. Then I start thinking, okay, there was a big difference. What can happen? What would prevent us from making the World Cup? What things could happen? The only situation that could trouble us is getting an early red card. And what would I do then? So you're trying to think in scenarios all the time. So in the seventh minute, one of the players got a red card. So, but I had thought about that. We discussed it. So it was like, okay, this needs to be done. We need to take her out. And then you really have to step up.

26:12And, you know, you don't have five minutes to arrange it because then you can see the goal. So that went really quick and then it's done. And those are the moments then you'd have your intuition. But when you have thought about things, it comes quicker. and you can have quicker decision making. Because one of the areas that jumped out to me reading your book that you had with the Netherlands team was one of your values was about staying in the moment. Yeah. Which sounds like that's what you're describing in some ways. Would you expand on it and explain why that was so significant? I think when you stay in a moment, when you're thoughtless in a moment, you're really action thinking.

26:49What do you have to do instead of result thinking? Because when you think in results, you're not thinking what you have to do but the consequences of things going right or wrong and you at the end you can only influence a result by doing the right things so you have to do think in actions and in your task and together with the team that's why we say stay in the moment so what tips are because that's an incredibly useful skill but it doesn't come naturally to many of us so what tips or techniques did you learn with yourself and your players that so that you could share with us yeah yeah I think you can train it I think um in in this we don't talk a lot in football about mental training and I think like football's also brains because you have to make decisions all the time so you have technical ability tactical ability and in the game you have the system so why is we well i think like a football training physical training and technical training you also have to train the brain i think mental training should be always be part of your football program and there you can train those things by staying in the moment learning how to direct your attention and staying in that also but it's also the fitter you are the less you come like when you get fatigued then your decision making can drop because you're fatigued and then your attention goes to other things so of course it's the big the whole picture but I think mental training should absolutely be part of it and you can train like visualization breathing uh meditation you can really learn it so when you've introduced that to the teams that you've coached what what tends to be the reaction when when you direct them into the mental training if it's not so commonly practiced no i well i think when you when you coach a national team you only have them like several weeks and we have the support in that so if a player so we say we empower them or encourage them to do it but the player herself she's responsible for her development so if she doesn't want to do it or doesn't see the value of it then we're not going to push that if you don't see the value of training sessions you have a problem of course but if someone doesn't want to do the mental training and we're going to force and push it it's not going to work so someone has to be ready for it but what we do there's there's two things about the mental trainings like team dynamics and yeah where the sports cycle is going to have influence them too but it's also learning skills individual skills i think that should be part of a program at the club because that's a daily thing but if players want to and they don't they want support from our sports psychologists that's absolutely available too and out of all the mental skills that you maybe practice for you as a head coach which one would you say has been the most valuable to allow you to go on and be so successful yeah i do um i do yoga and i do breathing and meditation and that's really necessary for me to stay calm and say my world has changed yeah like what are you all doing here so 10 years ago you would not be here i would not be here so my world has changed too and it's incredible to to see the development of the game and the visibility we got if we, you know, and it's really incredible to be part of that too, like being six-year-old, cutting your hair, not being allowed to play to where we are now.

30:34And it's really cool now to play football and to be able to become a professional coach or a professional football player. But that also comes, there's so much attention that I'm training myself to stay calm and also stay in the moment. I think if I wouldn't do that, my head would go all over the place. Serena told us a great story when she arrived, her car came around there and she's like, what were those people queuing up for? We were like, they were queuing up for you. Talking about change and adapting to change, I just want to read a quote from your assistant and talk to you about when you first arrived in England because first of all, Ian Vering's quote, he says in your book, in England, it's a whole different ball game and I find it fascinating.

31:21I'm interested in why it's so different here and how we can actually open up more easily about the things that matter. As well as that, Mary Upps, your amazing goalkeeper, said in the book that she had lost her trust in leadership because of a lack of honesty. And you spoke about coming into English football and, you know, when you're in the Netherlands and you say that's interesting, you actually mean, oh, that's interesting. Over here we mean, yeah, that's interesting. and this this need for you to kind of almost relearn the language that you'd learned when you were in Holland because we talk differently over here and this this closed nature with which a lot of us operate in this country I'd love to find out a little bit more about that because you managed to turn things around very fast yeah you know before I came in I took some English lessons and I tried well I played in the US so I know a little bit of English and in the Netherlands everyone speaks English too, but these things, the difference, like if you want to communicate effectively, and I'm talking about interesting, and everyone thinks, well, she thinks we should not do that.

32:23And for us, when you say it's interesting, you want to learn more about it. So it's totally opposite. So you have to know a couple of things. And I made that mistake too. Well, there were two things. One, in the beginning, I said, when we watched, when we reviewed training sessions or we showed clips, I said, well, this is pretty okay. And then I thought, well, we're doing a good job. So after a couple of months, some players said, well, when you say it's really okay, it's actually average. And I said, oh, it's really nice you tell me now, because I was actually giving you a compliment. So that was really nice.

32:54And one time I went with the general manager, Anja, she's Dutch too. And we went to a game, and then Sue Campbell, she said, well, you could come over for dinner. And then we said, well, the English people invite you for dinner. You're not sure if you should go. So we were thinking, okay, if in the Netherlands you say come for dinner, you go for dinner. So we said, talking to each other, I think for half an hour, should we go or shouldn't we? Well, if we go and she doesn't expect us, it's really embarrassing too. So at the end, we didn't go. So the next morning, I asked her, Sue, did you really mean?

33:28Yes, yes, you could have come. I said, oh, well, I'm sorry. Then we felt it was rude. We didn't go. So we learned a lot about that situation. And in the team, you know, they laugh at us sometimes. Some words I just keep mixing up and it's just funny. A little bit of self-humour that brings some joy to you. Don't take everything too seriously. Absolutely. And I'd just like to ask you about Mary Earps. And that's a very honest quote from her in your book to say that she felt people had been dishonest, therefore she'd lost trust in leadership in football. What did you do to rebuild leadership with her to turn her into arguably the greatest goalkeeper in the world?

34:08Yeah, of course, she has experienced something very hard over the years. I didn't know that before she came in. I just knew sometimes she was selected and sometimes she was not. But when I came in, she performed really well for the club. So we said we have to bring her in. And then when we had some training sessions, she did really well in the training sessions. And as I said, the first camp we had individual chats with players. So I did that with Darren Ward, the goalkeeper coach, and myself. And we had the chat and that was later on in the week. So we also decided who was going to play. So we combined that conversation and she said she was really grateful that she was selected.

34:50She didn't expect it. And then it was a little bit emotional. And I said, well, we just said, well, you performed really well. So you deserve to be selected because that's what you did. And you performed so well in this camp that you're going to start tomorrow too. and that became really emotional because she didn't expect that at all. She was a little low in confidence and I said, well, you know, there was some goalkeepers, some goalkeepers weren't there and they had been there at the Olympics and before but they were injured too. So I said, I don't know how the future goes but right now you've performed at the best and we think you should play so you can play on Friday.

35:29And from then she just did so well. So she talks highly about me but basically her performances that made us make the decisions to put her in the starting lineup.

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37:50So can we talk to you about the reference before you came out saying around ending years of national pain here in England for football fans? Can we go to that final? Because, again, to quote Jill Scott in your book, she talks about that you changed the way she thought. She thought you had to win something to build relationships with the fans. And you said you build the relationships with the fans whether you win something or not. Yeah. But I'm interested in your experiences and your memories of that day at Wembley when we did win the Euros. Would you tell us it from your perspective on the touchline?

38:24Well, that's one of the most incredible sports moments of my life. So that noise, I will never forget that noise. I thought you were there.

38:42I think it was also your support because that helped a lot too. You kept us going. So December 1st, you have to be there too, just so you know. But, so what Jill said, what I noticed when I came in, like, I know, when I was an international player, we were happy when there were 5 ,000 people coming to watch us. And now we, the game has changed so much. So lots of people come out there, travel, some travel the whole day to come there. And we went on the pitch and we went like this. And so we have to focus on the game. And I thought, we should be really grateful and happy. And we were happy, but they thought that I was thinking that they weren't focused on football when they would wave to the fans.

39:29So I said, you better go out and wave because they took all the efforts to come and support us. And I know you're such professionals that you go out there, you wave, and then you start your warm-up. And I'm not thinking you're not focused on football, but you're in this stage now. You play at the highest level, and it's an absolute privilege that you're allowed to play for 80 ,000 people. So we better enjoy it. no discussion of that final I'd be complete without also talking about your own personal situation in the build-up to that I mean what I find incredible and again reading your account of it in the book is how you processed the grief of dealing with your sister and her passing away to be able to come and perform would you tell us a little bit about what you learned about dealing with those emotions and still being able to go out there and be in the moment yeah yeah I think you know in life so also in football life things sometimes things go really well and sometimes things don't go well and you don't have control of a lot of things in life my sister got diagnosed cancer right before the olympics the netherlands and it yeah it took about a little more than a year before she passed away and at the moment i started in england she was already ill so and I thought when I sign a contract abroad I hope that everyone stays healthy because otherwise it becomes really hard and then she she got that um but we found a way and it was really nice we played one game in Luxembourg so she could come and drive there and unfortunately she couldn't come to England at all because she just we had bad news but she got bad news all the time so before the tournament we knew she was going to pass away because she went really downhill of course you don't really know the moment but she went really bad and but we had had so many conversations uh together and she was such she's one of my biggest fans and my husband he's over there so she said you better perform there and you better go get that um get that prize and i'll be there i'll sit on the crossbar on or on the on the post for you and we we had some of those moments and it was so close so she she wanted me to do well and of course I wanted the team was so supportive the FA the whole team was so supportive so I could park it at that moment and perform really well I actually really enjoyed it too and afterwards I got hit a little bit yeah as the final whistle blew and you walked onto the pitch and famously kissed the bracelet that was her her bracelet wasn't it yeah yeah when i so when she got really at the end of her life and i had to go she told me you have a training camp you have to go i found that really hard so i said well can i take something from you and so she gave me her bracelet um so that just felt really nice and i just kept it i still have it on and well at that moment that you become european champion it's so emotional i didn't even know i was doing that you don't even you're not even aware anymore that the whole world is watching there's so many cameras around you i was just doing it and later on i noticed okay i had done that and everyone's seeing it now but that's fine too it's part of life and i felt so connected with her that it was just a really nice moment so what can you teach us people here tonight and listening to the podcast about managing emotions even something as extremely intense as that and still be able to go out there and function yeah i think first of all you have to embrace it like you can park things for a certain amount of time but you can't just push it away and thinking it's not there because well part of a book about it the body keeps score so so then it comes back at moments you really don't want it or you you get pain in your body And so you have to find a way to also grieve and mourn and take that time.

43:28But you can't just say, okay, now I'm going to sit down and now I'm going to be really sad. So that doesn't help either. But at the moment to come, you have to embrace it and find those moments. And then there are some moments that you have to park for a while. And I think I can do that pretty well. I've been working in this environment for such a long time. Well, this was the hardest one. but there have been moments that I had to park things too. And then at another moment, you have the time, and it will hit you anyway, but then you have the time to embrace it and really take those moments to process it too.

44:05In many ways, did it actually help to put into perspective that football is just a game? You know, sometimes I think in the role you're in, it can be so all-consuming, and actually, you know, your husband who's here this evening and your friends, they're the ones that pay the price. You know, your family members that you don't spend as much time with and your daughters, they pay the price. Yeah. Maybe this was a moment that actually reminded you that there's an awful lot more to the world than just winning and losing games of football. Yeah, in those moments, absolutely. And then sometimes at that moment, when it's so fresh, you think, oh, it's worth everything, but then things go on and then you get so into football again and you want to win everything, you want to do all your best and you get sucked into it again.

44:45but what what what does uh happen is don't wait do things now when you have the opportunity to do it some things you really want to do so don't wait because you don't know what your life looks like next year things can happen so quickly so that's what I really learned and yeah just family is the most important thing and health family and health is just the most important thing it doesn't mean you you have to make choices when you're in this environment you can't just say okay now now it's family time i'm not coming to training session that's not how it works but you just have to to work on on everything to keep things right yeah well thank you for sharing that with us the other thing that you and your incredible players seem to be experts at is choosing the right moment to make your voices heard and as the father of young daughters who love sport i'd love to just take this moment to applaud you for the letter that came out straight after the success in the euros because the truth is absolutely yeah and that's not me that's really the players the players did that um incredible i'm so proud of them like taking that moment but it starts with performing at the highest level so first we're professional players want to perform at the highest level and when you do then you have the platform to address things and they really took that moment and they absolutely made a positive change for society and hopefully your daughters will benefit from that too.

46:23I certainly hope so and look you know we've seen in recent months there's still big areas where these things need to change and they need to improve and in fact you wrote in your book that you know you learned to change the way you make decisions when you're in front of men yeah i know i'm generalizing a little bit but that's how it works for me and that's what i've heard from a lot of women when they ask you do you want to have this job the first thing you think okay i can't do this and i can't do that and i can do that but your first thing what you can't do i think with a lot of men so you can confirm or not they think yes i'm gonna do it and then they start a job and i think maybe this is not right yeah but the first my wife is nodding at the back of the room right now So I think that's why it's also important that, you know, when you have these pros that you need women in the room, and women most of the time need a little encouragement and a little more time to overthink things and then take the decision.

47:20Oh, yes, you're now looking very different, your face. No, but I think it is like... I talked to Eleanor, like three women that are in different environments also working in men dominate or at the highest level. And we shared those experiences too. So like you have to encourage women a little more in general, I think, and give a little more time and not think, oh, she's insecure of that. No, we just need a little more time and need to be encouraged. So you can't do it. And is your overriding emotion, look how far we've come, Or is your overriding emotion, look how far we've still got to go? Oh no, that's black and white a little bit.

48:03Yeah. No, I'm really like...

48:13I think I'm so happy that I've been part of this whole journey and I could not imagine that we're here now where we are. And that's so positive and really positive because we've taken so many steps forward and I think we're going into the right direction. But I also think we still have a long way to go. So it's a little bit of both. So to move forward then, Serena, and talk around the World Cup, when you reflect on that tournament, what are the big learnings that you would take away from that to allow you to go and retain the European Championships in two years' time? Yeah, I think what we learn about the women's game is developing very quickly.

48:54So what we saw at the World Cup, some unexpected scores. So talking about football development now. I think lots of teams now, they are better in defending. So they're more structured. They also, the players are fitter. So especially like, I'm not talking about the top country, but the country, they're catching up with the top. So that they can defend really well and they can keep doing that the whole game. And they're more dangerous on the counterattack too. but I also think we have some data on that I also think that we as England we want to dominate the game we want to and we have to become even better to that being touched on the ball but the chance of winning is higher then but we also have to be prepared to take out the counterattack we basically saw that against Germany the other day too so that's the change and that will come closer and closer.

49:50Yeah, the learnings from what this team did in the World Cup. We had so many challenges before the tournament and during the tournament, and the team showed so much resilience, and we were so adaptable to new situations, also changing the style of play, injuries, the red card. I think they did incredible under the circumstances we were in. And I hope we can keep building on the resilience and becoming better, keep growing, and hopefully we can stay at the top level. That was what I was going to ask now, because almost for the first time in your tenure, there is a bit of pressure. There's a bit of scrutiny.

50:26You know, the last few results have been challenging for you as we look towards the Olympics. Without giving too much away, I would love to know what you've identified is going on at the moment and what's happening right now with you and the rest of your wider team to make sure that come the Olympic Games, we're there. Yeah, you're never sure. But I think, yes, we had two losses in four games, in the qualification games. I think when you look at those games, I think the Netherlands, the first half, they were back to the second half. I thought we played a good game and we just were struggling scoring goals.

51:05And we were very unlucky to get a late call against Belgium. I think it's almost a miracle that they scored three goals because we had the ball for 75 % and we were in their final third all the time. and we could have scored lots of goals. We just, we have to do a couple of things better there. So I think how we played and how we wanted to show who we are, we didn't even do that bad. Just the final pass, we have to do better. And I think we were a little bit unlucky in that game, but on luck is also we have to, we need to get back that final edge because I don't really believe in luck and unluck.

51:43So yeah, we have to do a couple of things better. I always say when you go really well, when you go really well, stay neutral. And we have an English phrase on that. When you go in a pink cloud, you become a little bit complacent. Now, always stay neutral because only when the results are going really well, you always have things that go really well. But you also have to keep developing to stay at that level. Now, we had some disappointing results. and when you see the data, then actually we didn't play that bad. Yeah, we definitely have to do a couple of things better, but we're not all of a sudden a bad team.

52:20And so we have to stay neutral too and bring back, okay, what do we have to do? How do we stick together? What's our game plan again on December 1st? Yeah, and we know we have to win two matches, but actually we want to win every game. And it's absolutely doable, I think. And we're going to do everything to win those games. And can I ask you about yourself as a coach then? What are you looking to improve? Keep connected with players, keep connected with staff and trying to get better, keep listening to the players from what do we need to do better, but also keep the trends, and that's what we're doing.

52:58So what's developing, what do we have to do then? And that's what I really want, get feedback also from players and staff to say, okay, where can I still improve in things, I think you can always improve in things. So before we move on to our quickfire questions, your feeling is that despite what you've already done, there's still so much to do with the lionesses, right? Yeah. Why are you asking that? We're excited.

53:29Okay, quickfire questions, Serena. The first one is what three non-negotiable behaviors do you and your team around you need to buy into non-negotiables not working hard it's absolute non-negotiable not acting in team first so that you're not supportive to your teammates not taking action is a non-negotiable not taking action that's on and off pitch so you always have to keep communicating in good times and in well bad times sound so bad but in challenging times keep communicating so not not taking any action, what things are happening in the team that need to be taken action on, that's a non-negotiable.

54:12If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why? In my football life? My personal life? It's up to you. Well, that's a very easy answer. That's the birth of my two kids. Very nice.

54:34Well, our two kids. You need two persons. Come on now, it takes two to tango. No talk about the making of. No talk about the making of, no. No, no, no. I thought you were more offended that she hadn't said the wedding day. He's very direct to his Dutch. How important is legacy to you, Serena? I think that's very important. I think over the years, I feel more and more responsible to share things and to have a legacy. And I think with the book, where lots of people contributed, and I'm very, very grateful they did, because I think it's a really good contribution to the book. I think I hope to inspire people.

55:25You know, I see so many different people here, and it's really nice to see so many different people here. but people from everywhere, whether you're in sport or management or education, it doesn't matter, but even more girls and women to inspire them. And hopefully that brings more coaches, more female coaches. And that's what I hope for also with this book even more. Yeah, that would be really great. Lovely. What advice would you give to a teenage, Serena, just starting out? Follow your heart. That's what I basically did always. and don't let anyone tell you you can't do it because you can if you want to

56:13what is your biggest strength what is your greatest weakness my biggest strength i think i'm connecting people connecting with people i think that's one of the biggest strengths but maybe you should ask other people that work with me and your greatest weakness i think i'm doing my best and i'm doing a lot better but not switching off and the final question then serena is what is your one golden rule to live in a high performance life uh commitment yeah i think you well first of all when you're in a high performance you're you have talent but I think commitment and perseverance are very important.

57:00Brilliant well look can I just say on behalf of every football fan in this country thank you so much for answering the phone when the FA called and I know that you know when you came in you you know you wanted to completely rearrange the whole setup of the backroom staff and how everything operated and you went in there and you met a bunch of players that had doubts and fears and weren't sure what was going to happen. But there was one thing that we are in no doubt about at all. What we needed was a direct coach to come in and be direct with our players. And you delivered such joy. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that, you know, I really hope that there is a lot more to come from Serena Wigman as the England manager.

57:43Thank you so much for joining us.

58:04Damien. Jake. This is nothing to do with you and I, by the way, but something special happened in that room, didn't it? Oh, mate, yeah. Like, goosebump moment. There was something, like, we were literally witnesses to something that was warm, that was inclusive, and that was about lifting each other up. And it was almost like everything that we wanted this podcast to be happened. And we were lucky enough to share it with a thousand people. I think what was really lovely as well for Serena, and, you know, she got quite emotional at times in the interview. I think if people watch it on YouTube, they'll see, you know, her welling up a bit.

58:44Maybe they wouldn't hear it if they just listened to the podcast. but I think what I loved about her is the fact that talking about people and the development and the growth and the improvement of people is what moves her. And actually that was her in a room of 800 people who've all been moved and uplifted and helped by her. And I think she really responded to that. It's almost the first time perhaps since the Euros that she's been in an intimate setting where she's realized the power of what she's done. Yeah, definitely. You know, she spoke when Jill Scott shared it with us when she came on about the idea of breaking the glass ceiling for so many females, not just in sport, but just in society and culture in general.

59:26And I think when she goes out there and meets a public that have felt inspired to break through those glass ceilings themselves in their own world, you start to see just the power of purpose. And if people download the High Performance app and listen to the Q &A that we did afterwards, they'll hear Dame Kelly Holmes ask Serena about her ultimate dream. And Serena actually answered by immediately talking about the players. And Kelly had to stop her and go, no, no, what's your dream? And actually Serena's dream is improving other people. And I think that's what leadership is. And we need to reframe leadership from being promoting myself, being successful myself, getting promoted myself, to lifting other people up.

1:00:08That is leadership. Yeah, you know, leaving a situation better than you found it is what leaders should define success by. And if we look at English football, is it a better place for Serena having touched it? Definitely. So therefore, that makes her a successful leader. Absolutely. Thanks a lot, mate. Thank you, mate. That was a privilege. So there we go. Don't forget, if you want to hear even more from Serena, after that conversation, the audience got the chance to ask her some questions. You can hear that only on the High Performance app. Just go to the App Store, download the app and use your exclusive code H-P-A-P-P for that and so much more content on the High Performance app.

1:00:52Look, thank you so much for listening to this. I think Serena is inspiring so many people around the world and there's a chance for you to do exactly the same. I would love it if you could just pass this conversation to one person that you think needs to hear it, one person who's ready to be inspired one person who can be helped by the kinds of messages that serena has shared with us by passing on this podcast it means more to us than i can explain it helps us to grow therefore helps us to attract more incredible names so that we can have impact in your life and before i finish i just want to share a message that i got on instagram this week from a guy called jack he said that um he loves the high performance podcast and he's actually put loads of the notes he's made from the podcast into an AI engine and it has created for him his own golden rule.

1:01:39And I wanted to end today's episode by just sharing the golden rule that he's created and this is it. Commit to constant self-improvement, embrace resilience and adaptability and treat yourself and others with respect all while pursuing your dreams with unwavering dedication and enthusiasm. I really love that golden rule. Thank you Jack for sharing it with me. Thank you Serena for being on this episode and most of all thanks to you for listening see you soon

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