Sergio Pérez: What Red Bull Never Revealed About My Shock Exit (E422)

0:03You say it's the hardest job as a Formula 1 driver sharing a team with Max? The toughest. I was going into a project that was built for Max. First time I met Christian, he told me, we go racing with two cars because we have to, you know. Otherwise we will be super happy just to race with one car. I said, look, I come here and I make the most of it in all regards. Sergio Pérez wins in Azerbaijan to take his sixth career victory, to beat his teammate. I over-deliver in all areas. Even for me, I feel mentally very strong. They were very, very tough and I would say toxic. You know, I didn't want to leave the sport that has given me everything in those terms.

0:42I can show myself that I'm one of the best and I want to do that.

0:51Sergio, welcome to High Performance. Yeah, thanks for having me. So look, this conversation isn't just for Formula 1 fans. this is for anyone who wants to understand why hard work matters, why dreams are not always what they seem. And I honestly think that the conversation we can have over the next hour or so can change the way that people view what life is really like for a Formula One driver at the top of their sport. Definitely. Before we come to the present day and talk about Cadillac and the amazing project that you're involved in there, we want to go right back to the beginning. Teenage Sergio living in Mexico with a dream.

1:28What were you doing at that point in your life to make Formula 1 a reality rather than just a dream? To be honest, when I started it was just a dream. And I knew that it was such a far dream because in Mexico we never had Formula 1 drivers. I never grew up with F1 drivers looking at it. And I knew Formula 1 wasn't that big. It was more about IndyCar in the US nearby. I don't come from family with lots of money to be able to go to Europe. I always wanted to race karts in Europe because I believed I was one of the best in the world because I was doing karting at a very high level. I was like 12 racing drivers of like 25 American drivers that were doing well.

2:12But I never had the opportunity to come to Europe because it was too expensive. But more importantly, in karting, I knew that I had to win the championship I was in, in Shifter 125s, I had a special license. I was 12 and you can only drive that championship, I think, with 16 minimum. So I had a special permit license. How did you get a license to do it for you? Because of my level. I won the championship by ADCC, so the next was 125, but I was too young for it. I was too young for the ADCC, so they gave me a special license. And if I won that championship, I will get the opportunity to drive for, to do a test in a ski bar, which is a series in the US.

2:58So I was leading that championship and I was leading it by a margin and I had a crush with one of the guys that was very influential in the Mexican Federation. And long story short, they removed my license. So I couldn't finish the championship. I didn't want the championship. so I thought like it's all over you know like I quit from karting because I thought like if I don't get that opportunity to go with the Scuderia Telmex there what's gonna be you know how far I will make it so I'm wasting my time here and then Carlos Lim and Jimmy Morales the owners of Scuderia they found out about it, they called my dad and I came back from school and my dad told me hey Carlos called me I had a work with him and with Jimmy and they said don't worry you will be doing the test in Skibar with the championship you too the whole project was very much biased into the US and I knew that I wanted to come to Europe I wanted to race in Europe but I have to convince Carlos because they didn't want to invest too much money in a 14 14 year old boy you know you don't know how good he's going to be so I was always trying to convince him writing him on Messenger you remember MSN and what were you saying like Carlos look I got a new offer from a new team they want they want they want they want me it's like they want you for how much you know like because they want you yes but at the end of the day it comes a story that you say how you attract them you know I knew I had to wake up like at 3am in the morning to fund all the teams in Germany to get proposals all I will say is you know I have a big sponsor big money and I'm very fast you know it's what I would say you know I have a big sponsor big money Carlos Lim Carlos Lim and when I told them Carlos Lim they were like okay so now we're talking but the money wasn't guaranteed you didn't have big money the problem the problem is like I have a lot of money but they don't want to spend it you know like so and they were giving me offers to drive in Formula BMW in Germany but they were all very expensive.

5:21So I kept sending those offers to Carlos. He was like, no, that's too much money, too much. And then all of a sudden I found that less than 50 % of the budget to do the Formula BMW with a team that had one car in their garage, a team that finished, they had one truck, they didn't have mechanics or engineers. He sent me an offer and it was like the cheapest of all. I said, this is it. This is the one that we... So I sent it to Carlos and look what I got. And Carlos said, wow, this is really... You want to do this one? Yes. So we got the deal. And I was like, I remember on the flight home, on the flight from Mexico to Germany, I was freaking myself out because I thought, this could be a fraud.

6:11I got there and a great friend, you know, a great guy, Gunter, Gunter Unterreimer. and was there waiting for me. It was like, it was in December, so cold. And I was like, this is what I signed up for, you know. And I already had the opportunity. I was super happy. Gunther was a great guy. But we didn't have mechanics. We didn't have engineers. So he found an engineer. We found a few mechanics around. We made a great team. And on our debut, we nearly won the race. I was racing with Hülkenberg. he won the race and I finished second and it was like Carlos thought like wow this guy is good you know he's hungry and so on and everything started there Can I ask you from the age of 12 when you first realised this is what you want to do up until you arrive in Germany you put yourself under an awful lot of pressure What did you learn about yourself during that period that you still use today?

7:13I think I developed my character, you know, because I've been through so much at a young age, you know, and the uncertainty of not knowing what comes next, what you're going to do with your future, like race after race, facing that uncertainty, you build a certain character. Even if I didn't make it, if I didn't make it to F1 or if I didn't have a successful career, what, you know, what teach me there, that character that I built, I could do anything, you know, because it's really hard to build that part, you know, with so much on your shoulders at such a young age that I felt like when I came to Formula One, I've had tough, tough periods.

7:54they've been nothing for me you know because I already build that character that moment at the airport where you leave your family in Mexico and you're flying over to Germany what was the strongest emotion was it the regret at leaving your family home the first time the first time it was excitement you know coming here to Europe raise the Europeans meet all the Formula 1 you know you develop this sort of picture in your mind that you will come here to Europe and you will be meeting all the Formula 1 drivers hanging out with them, potentially going to some parties with them, you know, like, you know, you're going to be part of their gang.

8:30But you come here to Europe completely on your own. I was shocked, you know, I was like, what do I do now? In Germany, I didn't speak any English, less German. I was like completely on my own. And they would drop me in the, at that point I was living on a hotel, how do you call it? where the truck is like a truck stop truck stop yeah hotel I was living in one of them you came to Germany and ended up in a truck stop motel yeah yeah motel yeah really yeah yeah I was there with all the truck drivers yeah yeah all the truck drivers all the truckies completely on my own I was like you know I'm only racing on on the weekends you know so it was really really tough and and I couldn't come back to Mexico between races because it was very expensive if I was very tight on budget.

9:24So for me, the toughest periods were when the race finished. I remember like coming back from a race, you know, we had a motorhome and Gunther will drive it. I will be next to it. He will like leave me at home. I was like, you know, when is the next race? In two weeks. What am I going to do the next two weeks? You know, because they're in the middle of nowhere. And those periods were very tough. but then Gunther did a restaurant. He was building a restaurant. So he told me, you want to help me to build it? I was like, please take me wherever. So we started building a restaurant and then once the restaurant was ready, he told me, you want to come?

10:07You can live there with the chef on the top floor. I was like, for sure. You know, like I could live with someone. I can speak to someone. It was the worst nightmare for the chef. Imagine a 14-year-old Mexican with a Mexican time zone, you know, because when I was not racing, I was just speaking to my friends on the computer, but on their time zone, you know. And it was a chaos, but overall it was a fantastic, fantastic experience. And what did you learn about loneliness and how to cope with that during that time then? yeah I you know that's a tough question because for me loneliness is really good I think it's a period where you can analyze deep inside you like what what you want you know what you want out of those moments for me it wasn't a game for me it was my future it was the opportunity of my life I remember I wanted to go back you know like I was about to call Carlos and say look Carlos thank you very much for the opportunity but it's too tough for me to be away from my family.

11:18And I remember my brother, because he was higher up, he tried in Formula 4, and he tried to come to Europe, but then he had to stop because he didn't find the opportunity. He told me, like, the easiest way you can do is to give up and come back. You know, because... And then if you come back and you want to do it later, in two, three years' time, it's over. You know, the opportunity is now, the time is now, and you have to make the most of it. so I was pretty shocked yeah it was tough and I said look so in that loneliness it helps you to really go deep on yourself it for me when I'm alone and on my own I go really deep on myself on what I want you know and I know that when I want something it means you know you have to get it now and to get it is the difficult part of it because we all want a lot of things no but it's how you get them.

12:12And for me, that loneliness helped me to go deep on myself. And it turned out to be the greatest thing you ever did, because the race results were good. You continued to have support from Carlos. It wasn't good in Germany. At the beginning? At the beginning. But then when I went to England, I came to a great team. T-Sport with Russell, Icox with Skelly. It was the best time of my career, you know, in F3. It really switched on my career. You know, I came from a very tough period to a great time. Make sure you stay where you are. In a moment, Sergio is going to tell us what happened when he finally got the opportunity to race in Formula One.

12:53We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. Still waiting in line? Again? That's time you'll never get back. Save time and money with stamps.com. Over 4 million businesses have skipped the line with stamps.com. Join them to save up to 90 % off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now. Print postage for certified mail, registered mail, and packages in seconds. Then schedule a pickup right from your home or office. For a limited time, go to stamps.com and use code podcast for a free welcome gift. Taxes and fees apply. And that period was really when you came to the attention of the Formula One teams when you were racing in the feeder series and eventually the opportunity comes through Sauber.

13:41So taking into account the fact that England was great, but Germany was a challenge on the track, a challenge off the track, it was lonely, but you'd backed yourself as a 14-year-old ringing all of these teams in Germany and in Europe. You'd seen the dream when you were 12 with your brother. This had been such a long journey. The first day that you're at Sauber and you pull on a helmet as a Formula One driver, is that a sense of I've achieved it or is it a sense of now I better deliver no not for me it was it was like I made it but now it's the time that the real challenge comes you know because you are against the best drivers of the world with the best teams people you know here you cannot survive the only thing that can make you survive is your attitude and your your commitment and your results i knew that straight away so it was about like full on it you know like um because how many i've been in the sport and i've seen through my career so many great great drivers they do from one one two five years and then that's it you know so i knew like to have a very successful career it was not just what happens on track it's what you do out of the car, with your team, with your sponsors.

15:02It's a whole package, you know, with the media. All of that, to me, I was very switched on because of the early years. So I knew that it wasn't about, I made it, you know, now I can relax. It was now the real work starts, you know. And yeah, it was great. But at the same time, you know, in hindsight, I always had a lot of pressure on my shoulders. And I regret something in my career, you know, because now I'm towards the end of it. Because I had so much on my shoulders, I felt like, I don't know if all the drivers I have that much, that I forgot a lot to enjoy. You know, through my career, I feel like I didn't enjoy the good times or the bad times as much as I should.

15:50I regret, like, not enjoying them more. And what was the pressure? well you know the support that support that i've that i've got to my family you know my like what's going to happen at a very young age you have the the the need of support your family and and everything is relying like you making it into it so although all those combined and the opportunities that will go by you know you have an opportunity if you don't grab it with both hands is not coming back at you. See, I think this is really interesting because so often we have people that sit in their chair and they talk about the pressure.

16:30And then the natural question is, well, Carlos wanted the best for you and was supporting you. Your family love you regardless of whether you're a Formula One driver or not. Your mom's still going to give you a hug at the end of the day. So actually the pressure was, although you felt it was your family and your backers and your supporters and the nation of Mexico, the truth is the pressure was internal. It was you. It was me. it was me knowing that the you know you are there and you know that the opportunity can slip so quickly you know and there are thousands of people willing to to take to take it away from you so knowing to you've been through all of it and then you know that now the the real thing starts it was interesting your answer there that you said when you got there you you looked at the results are going to be important but the only thing you could influence was your attitude yeah attitude is a small word.

17:24What did it mean in terms of your behavior? What was a good attitude? Well, you know, first of all, respecting everyone, coming with the right attitude in terms of humble. You know, I see some kids coming in. They won't last, you know, they won't last that long. You need to come with the right attitude. You need to work with your teams, with your engineers, but you have to be extremely humble because to be here, first of all, you have to realize no matter how good you are, you are lucky. You are very lucky, you know? You are here because of the right timing, because of the right opportunity. So many factors that you have to realize that you are very lucky to be here and you cannot come here and just be with an arrogant attitude, you know?

18:13And I mean, once you build your career, you can do whatever you want. but I knew that starting at it you have to be extremely intelligent. I think that's it. You have to be very clever. It's not just about what you do on the car. People come in here and think that sometimes it's all about what you do just on a single lap and on your results. It's not about that. Formula One is much more than that, you know. And there are a lot of very, very good drivers, very quick drivers and it's not just, it's how you feed your engineers, your sponsors, the whole package. You are a brand and you have to be able to have a very strong package around you.

18:59So can you give us a distinction? I think it'd be helpful for people watching or listening to this Sergio between confidence and humility because they're two sides of a different coin, aren't they? I think confidence goes in humbleness. The more confident you are, I think the more humble you can be because at the same time when you jump in the car and people see you you will be able to show what your potential is but you don't have to be out of the car an asshole you can be

19:37always remember where you come from and how lucky you are to be in the position you are can we go a bit deeper on the word confidence because you raced i think i'm right 190 grand prix before your first win yeah that's 190 times you have to watch someone else on the podium 190 times where you have to ask yourself the question could i have done a better job today who knows yeah how do you stay confident and most importantly retain the belief that one day you will be a formula one race winner when it's been that long you know because it's it's formula one And the unfortunate thing in Formula 1 that 90 % of your success is down to your car, to your surrounding, being there at the right time, at the right moment, with the right package.

20:27You know, I think there are so many good drivers in Formula 1 that are going to leave the sport without even a win or even a podium. And it's not because they didn't deliver or they didn't deserve that. is because they are fantastic drivers. I mean, it's crazy to think that Hulkenberg has one podium in his career. I've grown up with him. He's one of the best drivers out there, but he hasn't had the opportunity. He hasn't been there at the right time. That's just how Formula One is. We had an interesting conversation with George Russell on this that spoke about he would set different targets than what we as the public would assume.

21:07So if he was 12, he would set himself a target. I want to be 11th in the next race. So the outsider might go, you've come 11th, but he would see it as a victory for himself. How did you go about setting targets then when you know that 90 % of what the public are going to judge success is outside of your control? Well, I think for me it was about, for example, if I was driving for a team that was top five finish, putting the car always top four, like knowing that I deliver. the 120 % out of the car, I could go comfortably home, you know. If not, I always had that regret of, you know, I didn't deliver in qualifying, I didn't deliver in the race.

21:51So I was always thinking how I'm going to be able to overcome that in the next race. See, if I look at your career, I think there's been some amazing moments. I mean, I would say though that Sakhir 2020 sits at the top. Yeah, that was a really, really good moment. Before we talk about it, I think it's important, particularly for people who don't know much about Formula One, just to share a bit of the backstory around what happened. Because if we rewind the clock a little bit, you were a team that were going bust, right? Yeah. So when did you first realize that Force India had some financial issues going on?

22:27It was really late, like at the very latest stage. I had no idea on law, everything to do with law. but I was on some money they didn't pay my salary for like for the entire year so I was like it was quite kind of normal you know like we were having a bit of delays but then there was a my manager told me that there was a winding up petition so from one of the suppliers that hasn't been paid what does that mean yeah basically they can shut down the company you know and and the whole team will lose their job i was like wow and you can save it and so what we gotta do well we we did the whole process to to end up to put the team in in administration before the winding out petition comes in place who did that you did together with with julian my manager your manager yeah so hold on you and your manager made a decision to like effectively sue the team to put them into administration?

23:32Yeah, because if we didn't put them into administration, the team would have gone bankrupt at the time. And all those people would have lost their jobs? And all the people, all the teams. So at the time it was Force India, which is now Aston Martin. Aston Martin wouldn't exist. So we went, we had 90 days to find a buyer, and luckily for the team came Lawrence, and ended up buying while we were in administration. so those days where you were having to make a decision to put the team into administration yourself can you talk us through your decision making process because that is a huge decision that you know is going to reverberate around the world that was crazy you know because all of this was happening during the summer actually during race after race so I remember like before going into the into the car like having a conversation with lawyers not understanding it at all Now it's a lot easier.

24:28Now you can ask Chagipiti and he'll give you the answer. Back then, I had no idea. Chagipiti, tell me how to put a Formula 1 team into administration. Back then, it was not so clear. And then at the end, I remember telling all my people around, because it sounds bad, like the driver is putting the team in administration. So we are a team. So I remember talking to all the staff in one of the races, telling them, look, I'm doing it because it's only right for everyone here. Otherwise, you guys are going to lose everything, all your jobs and so on. So I ended up explaining them how it worked. And so they were a lot more calm.

25:10But at the end of the day, it was a lot of uncertainty during the administration period. Were you not overwhelmed, though, with trying to deal with that and then get in the car and drive the car well? I mean, as a driver, ideally, you want to be in the scenario where you can just focus on performance, on your performance with your team. But sometimes you are not in that luxury position. Wow. So how did you do it then? So I end up, you know, like trying to be the best, let's say, lawyer I can be for the team and the best driver trying to separate when I had to jump in in the car, trying to deliver, you know, as much as possible for the team because we were having some good races, some races we were on the points.

25:53even on the podiums. So yeah, but at that point it was very, very critical, the future of the team. But was it like, how did you go about setting boundaries? Where, like, what was your cut-off point? We're not talking about legal issues now. No, there was no, no, you couldn't separate it. Because it was at a stage that was very, very critical. So I will be having meetings just before qualifying. I remember one of the, I think, in Paul Ricard, it was just before qualifying, like literally with lawyers and so on, and then jump in the car. And then before the race, instead of being with the engineers, I was with some other meetings.

26:32But I was there, I had to do it, and I have to save the team at that point as well. So when you look back on that period, do you think that actually helped you? Because those distractions allowed you to maybe have a greater perspective? far i mean all i can say i think i was there and i had to do it you know ideally i would have like to be in a team where i could just focus on performance but it end up being that at the end of the day you travel the world with your people with your mechanics engineers yeah all this stuff and your family you know you're together you're a family and if you can do something for for them i'm sure that anyone will do it the crucial point here is if you're the master of compartmentalizing, right?

27:20This is an interesting thing for a lot of people to understand. So Sergio saves the team by putting the team into administration, allowing Lawrence Stroll to buy the team. Just before his first ever win in Formula One, Lawrence Stroll told him he wouldn't carry on with the team. So the guy that you had enabled to buy it decided to take you out. So before we talk about Sakhir, the backdrop is that you were told your time with the team was over how difficult was that for you? It was difficult like you say because I had a three year contract with the team obviously with options in it and it was like my future was going to be with that team that I've been pretty much my whole life and I helped to buy it and so on so I really thought that I was going to be part of that project together with Lawrence and Lance but then obviously Sebastian came available you know a four time world champion became available and I understood this is how the sport works you know I knew that it was a great interest it was going to be a great interest for Lawrence so he had an option he didn't renew it and then he went for Sebastian and I was like look there is no loyalty in this sport.

28:43I didn't took it personally. I actually have a great relationship with all the people in Aston. So I said, look, now what can I do? Now I just focus on what I can do, which is perform on track, see what happens. If there is a good opportunity for next year, I'll take it. If not, I sit out for a year and then come back because there was some interest. I had a few alternatives. but not for the year after. And then I ended up winning my race towards the end of the year. And then Red Bull came. The only team I thought that I was never going to drive for was Red Bull, you know, because they always have their academy drivers.

29:28So I ended up driving for Red Bull, you know, a very late stage in the season. Do you think that you would have got the Red Bull drive without the win in Sakhir? No. I think that win was very... very important, you know, because it wasn't easy to get into the Red Bull program. For Red Bull to say, well, we need to look outside of our pool. They did it with whoever, and they didn't really want. It's like our academy is not working. We need to go and find someone else. It's really hard, you know, for them. So there were a lot of things. So I think when I won the race, it was quite obvious for them that they had to do it.

30:14Come on now, let's just not throw this away with when I won the race. I mean, how you won that race was absolutely remarkable. So you got touched, you had to pit, you're basically now at the back of the grid, and you come through the whole pack. Can you take us into the cockpit that day? Talk us through some of the decision-making processes that you went through during that race. because it felt like you really won the race that day. Basically, I knew we had a massive potential because we were in Bahrain and it was COVID. So the weekend before we raced in Bahrain, in the normal circuit, and Bahrain is the toughest circuit on tyres.

30:56It's the roughest, you know, so it's the toughest, it's the most degradation you have in Bahrain. So we came there in Bahrain, but it was a very different Bahrain with a long, very long straights. They changed the circuit so that we don't race in the same one, but it was the same tarmac. So I remember after the first session, the first Friday, I told the engineers, let's take all the downforce out. I mean, how would you do that in Bahrain? I said, because this is not a normal Bahrain. This is a very different Bahrain. So let's take all the downforce. And we were flying that weekend because everyone was running a lot higher downforce and we were flying and not degrading the tires as much.

31:42We really found the balance. I knew we had a very good race car. My strength comes in the races with looking after the tires and so on. And then I had a good start and I was next to Max. I think Bottas was leading. Bottas was leading the race. and I was second Max was was in the inset and then Charles was even more on the inset so at the end Charles took took us both out thing he crashed into me Max tried to avoid me and he ended up crashing I was like I mean how can this happen you know it's my massive opportunity I needed for my for my career you know you knew you were out of a job because the race before I was on the podium in Bahrain I was third I was running third and two, three laps from the end the engine blew up I forgot about that yeah the engine blew up so I was like you know again it's over you know because this was the race that I could make the difference so I turn around I keep going they ask me how is the car well it's okay but I don't know what you never know with the aerodynamics if they touch on the floor or anything like that it can be a big problem everything was feeling fine so we end up changing the tires and we start again one by one I was like overtaking them all the cars at the back so easily so halfway through the race I was back on the race to score points so I keep going towards the later stages I was really onto the podium and we were like, you know.

33:30And then the safety car, George was leading, you know, because he stepped in for Lewis. Lewis got COVID and George stepped in. He was winning. He was leading the race. I think Bottas was second or Bottas retired somehow. And then they had an issue. I ended up in the lead. Eight laps to go. I was matching George's pace and then he had a puncture. He had to come back to the pits and I ended up winning the race from the back. It was really important. And myself, my thinking was like, look, whatever comes next, I've won a race in Fulano One, you know, even if I ever don't, if I don't come back, if I don't do anything, I've won a race and period.

34:20And did you allow yourself to enjoy that moment? Yes, yes. It was very, very enjoyable. I remember calling my family straight after and they were in Dubai. They were coming for my final race in Formula 1. And because they had to quarantine, you remember it was a big issue with COVID. So they were waiting for me in Abu Dhabi. They were quarantining in there and they were super happy. And we were so happy. And look, let's go now to our final race. Let's see what happens. what I find remarkable though is that instinct that you had you know to go to the engineers and suggest that you race in a different way how did you get the confidence to back your instinct when nobody else seems to have done that and the data maybe would challenge you?

35:08You always have to as a racing driver you always have to go with your feeling you know with the there is so much data can say but it's always much more important your feeling, your experience your knowledge if there's something I've learned in the sport always go with your feeling always because regardless of if it's right or wrong you challenge the data well you challenge the data you finally after 190 attempts you won your race in Formula 1 and that little 12 year old kid with a dream is suddenly on the top step of an F1 podium then it gets even more ridiculously amazing for you and you get that phone call from Red Bull which you and no one else was expecting because they have their own young driver program.

35:55And suddenly you're in, at the time, the top, top team in Formula 1 and this is like a big moment for you. How do you now reflect on that period in your career at Red Bull? It was great. I would say that it was fantastic. I knew, you know, that I was going into Red Bull into a project that was built for Max over the years. when they signed me up it was very clear I knew what I signed up for and when did they tell you what you'd signed up for did they make it clear this is built around Max yeah the first time I met Christian he told me we go racing with two cars because we have to otherwise we will be super happy just to race with one car

36:43everything is for Max around Max we want to win the championship he was that yeah yeah yeah so instead of me thinking oh you know why i said look i come here and i make the most of it in all in all regards and it's what i did you know i i went there with the tools available that i had to my to my expense i think i i over deliver in all areas over there you know it worked out perfectly of course it turned out to be there were some very tough times very tough periods towards the end as well, the pressure and everyone internally were we had too much success so people got bored I think and they were fighting each other and you know all the drama around but they were fantastic, fantastic four years I think I overdelivered and only once I left and they brought in the other drivers, I realized the job that I've done for them for four years Well, you know that Otmar has said on record on our other show, High Performance Racing that if they'd have kept you he thinks last season that they would have won the world title.

37:59Well, you never know if you don't know but for me on a personal level I still be big friends with everyone at Red Bull everyone at Aston Martin that's also very important I kept my credibility and my gratitude to all of them. Red Bull transformed my career. A stone at Racing Point gave me a massive opportunity. So at the end of the day, this is a business and you have to play it. Stay where you are. Plenty more still to come from Sergio Perez. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. What if the real question isn't where you're going, but the adventures you experience along the way?

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41:00Print postage for certified mail, registered mail, and packages in seconds. Then schedule a pickup right from your home or office. For a limited time, go to stamps.com and use code podcast for a free welcome gift. Taxes and fees apply. And there aren't very many Formula One drivers that have been around as long as you have. And they still love the teams they raced at. But more importantly, the teams love that driver. Like, it's quite rare. And it says a lot about you as a person. I'm really interested, though, because it gets spoken about so much by other people that have never shared a team with Max Verstappen.

41:34what is it actually like having would you say it's the hardest job as a Formula 1 driver sharing a team with Max? To face Max at Red Bull is the toughest already to face Max in any other team it will be very tough but to face him at Red Bull with his team, his people surrounding I mean basically it's tough and you need the best of the best in all areas and you just don't have it while he has it. All the opportunities in terms of engineering, senior engineering, experience engineering, you know that everything goes to Max. But I knew it before I came, so I thought, look, I can either complain or get on with what I have.

42:26And this is what I did. You know, the four years I was there, I kept my same engineering team, something I feel extremely proud of. What would happen on a weekend where you were faster than Max and you won the race or you dominated? They will be very happy. They will be very happy in the team, but the problems will happen. You cannot perform at your best and it's what happened. Would you be happy to take us into what the psychological impact is of having to deal with all of that? it's very tough I think the only reason I survived there for so long is because first of all of how I built my character so for me it was like peanuts and in that regard being in that position and accepting I think you have to accept in which position you are you know and you cannot over push the system too much because they just break you so being able to and also I was completely on my own at Red Bull.

43:29How do you mean? Yeah, in terms of management, I felt like there was not much we could do with the system. This is what you get given and that's really it. Right, okay. So did you feel supported? I felt supported to a certain point. You know what I mean? like more than that nobody was willing to do it I felt supportive the team was behind me like Christian, Helmut they will get happy if I win a race and so on but at the end of the day they will tell me you know the whole project is done for our driver and our driver is Max so for me it was clear and I accepted that you know I just tried to make the most of it and there were years where I thought you know we are on a par I can really give a fight.

44:24But then as soon as the upgrades they were going in, the difference will just increase quite a bit. And what was that certain point that you felt supported? And when did it run out? Pretty much throughout, I would say. They were really happy because they knew what that second seat was about. And they knew that whoever they bring, they will break him in two, three races. not because they're not weak enough you have to be mentally extremely strong you have to have the character to be able to cope with all of that and when they brought the youngsters Liam lasted I think two races and then Yuki they forgot of how difficult it was but before that there was Gasly there was Albon extremely quick and talented drivers but the system just breaks you and that's it my issue with this and I know that you're Formula 1 drivers right you know the rules of engagement in your sport but you're still talking about young guys with dreams ambitions they're still human beings they still have mental health problems and psychological challenges and families to care about and that's before you even talk about the pressure from the outside world from social media from Twitter and you got all of that all of that on your shoulders did you ever seek outside help?

45:48yeah I seek out outside help because they push me for it you know because in Red Bull it was funny every time you didn't deliver there were some mental issues so I thought look I'm open to try anything okay so the car gets designed for the other team mate and when you're not quick enough exactly so what's going on you are too focused on you know whatever they will think they will really believe you know because all of a sudden you see the driver is fighting the other driver and then you come to another race and it's one second between teammates. It's like they were fighting the last race and now they're second, so you are not focused, you know?

46:27So I was open to anything, so I tried, but I knew that was like what was the main course of it and I took it because I felt like potentially it will show the right attitude for the team. You know that I'm willing to do anything to overcome these issues. And you've spoken about confidence started to disintegrate. What did you do to arrest that spiral? I always kept believing in myself. I always knew that in the situation that I was, I was always conscious of how I was driving. As soon as those upgrades were introduced, instead of being driving on an automatic mode and focusing on performance, you are trying to prevent things like I knew like I have to come off the brake because otherwise the ridges end up rotate and that sort of thing so I end up knowing that I was in that situation so I have to to get the most out of it and you end up developing new skills of of driving differently and understanding things differently Did it weirdly make you a better driver do you think definitely definitely I think and also it's shown me you know being four years next to Max he's a driving force although he has all the support he can you can dream of of a racing driver Max is a a tremendous force a tremendous complete driver in all the areas you know and it really teach me how to to lead that team as well you know how to be explain that yeah Max is a pure leader on how he pushes everyone around him.

48:16In performance, he knows exactly what he needs to go quick and where he's lacking. And he's a tremendous, you know, a hard worker as well. So being able to learn that and seeing that in first hand from Max for four years in very different cars definitely has made me a faster driver. And also, I think not having the right tools on my side made me to raise my level as well. Yeah, and did the psychology ever help when you met the psychologist? How many sessions did you have? To be honest, I didn't feel like... I was quite open to it, but I felt like my issue was not... It made me understood, you know, like, for example, where all this pressure was coming from and so on.

49:10Having that conversation with someone, I think it's very important. If you feel like you need it, seeking that help with someone you feel comfortable on and explaining just your details. All I needed at that time, I think it was, how you say, a club and say like, you are in this situation, just make the most of it. and that's really it, you know. Yeah. Like you said that Max was a pure leader. What's the one aspect that you saw him do that you would take into your own future career? Pushing the team in a certain direction, you know, like giving them that direction. Not many drivers can do that.

49:55So telling them like where exactly we are lacking and how we can get there, that's something very, very unique that I've learned, you know, I had on those meetings. Adrian, Adrian Newey, Christian, Pierre. So knowing from all those guys how they were dealing when we were dominating the sport without a really, I would say, the most competitive package, you know, it was tremendous to see how much the effort was behind the scenes. And now you get to use all of those skills that you learned at Cadillac. and I think this is what's really interesting because Cadillac didn't just hire a driver that is great on the tyres and uses his brain to win a Grand Prix as well as his ability behind the wheel.

50:41They didn't just hire a guy who had had a year out and had a sabbatical to really work out the role of Formula One in his life. They didn't just hire a guy who'd shared a team with Max Verstappen and so saw what leadership looked like from a driver's perspective. They also hired someone who's got all the experience but it's so clear now that the fire is still so strong in you to deliver for Cadillac, but in a different way. It isn't about race wins, is it? But it's about a different kind of performance. Definitely, definitely. I think this project really... So basically, when I left Red Bull, I had to take a year out because mentally it was very tiring.

51:20You know, my last six months at Red Bull were very tough. Even for me that I feel mentally very strong, they were very, very tough and I would say toxic. and I really wanted a break. So the year out came perfectly, in perfect timing. I didn't know at that time if I wanted to come back. When I left F1, I really thought it could be it and I was ready for it. I'm very grateful I wouldn't come back at any cost. But I also felt like I didn't want to leave the sport that has given me everything in those terms. so when the project with Cadillac came it's a project, it's a massive project it's a massive brand and when I met Tan, you know, his commitment I knew this guy is very competitive and he will do whatever it takes to to take it to a very good level and it can be my project as well and I can be part of it and I can show myself, you know that I'm one of the best and I want to do that you know because I always believe that I'm one of the best in the grid but obviously in my period at the Red Bull it takes that confidence of you you know when you are not delivering and your teammate is winning and so on and I always knew what were the issues but it takes confidence away from you and that's why I wanted to come back and I remember one engineer that told me when I finished with Red Bull told me like, wherever you go, you are extremely fast.

52:59And we all know that, you know. I won't say his name, but he would tell me, like, we all know that wherever you go, you are one of the best. And we all know that. I said, he's just telling me that because I'm leaving. But I also knew, you know, deep inside me, the issues, you know, and most of the engineers, they understood all these problems. but when I came back and when I showed to myself you know I did a test with Ferrari in the middle of last year to get up to speed Cadillac organized the test you know because I set a gear out a Formula 1 I didn't drop anything because I wanted I was of course interested in other series and so on but I wanted to keep my muscle memory of Formula 1 so I didn't do anything I did some karting and so on to keep fit but so when I went to to do this test in Imola I was like you know I haven't driven like for 8 months so how how are it gonna be I don't know I went there and within 3 runs I was on the pace like everything was with me safe you know and the Ferrari was much more of a normal car you know like I would come in and then I started to relax and let my my my natural speed carries it carry carry it around and I was like I knew straight away I wasn't the issue and that I was going to be extremely competitive in more of a normal car I love that.

54:30And what did the 8 months give you in addition to what you'd had before you left? Oh, a lot you know it made me disconnect from the sport it made me understand the sport a lot more you know because when you are in this bubble I call it a bubble at the end of the day it's a bubble that it's very important for us and a lot of fans but at the end of the day we as a driver tend to focus on you know you feel the worst driver and you go down really easily if you didn't get 100 % of your potential you know and when you're outside the sport 99 % of the fans don't even understand if you got the 90 or the 30 you know you should worry less I felt like you should worry less and enjoy it and enjoy more the sport because you said when you first came in that you wished that you had have learned to enjoy it yeah I think that's that's the main thing I learned when I stood up when I went out it goes by so quickly your career that when once I realized I was out of it and I thought you know I should have enjoyed it more the good moments we all enjoy them for sure but even even them even then you should enjoy them more you know you should appreciate them more and the bad moment as well you know like enjoy them because at the end of the day, you are here and it's going to finish at some point.

55:51And also, I think, a chance to reconnect with your kids, right? Oh, no, that to me and with my wife, we were able to travel. We went to Africa. We loved it. We went twice in one year. We traveled so much with my kids, you know, the summer. It was great. I really, really enjoyed it. I had great projects as well, you know, with my... I started some other projects out of racing, and I was really busy, really active. I think I was not just sitting back on the beach. I was playing golf. I was in my office, you know, building my family office and everything. It was a great time. I really, really enjoyed it.

56:35But when the project came, when I met the owners, I knew that you know I still have a fight in me to to show myself that I'm I'm one of the best and I really wanted to come back obviously there was that period towards the end at Red Bull that you were pretty broken right? yeah it was very tough those six months and I feel like that sabbatical I know you had a watch and you engraved sabbatical is that right? on the watch I'm a big watch collector I love watches and before I used to buy more but now you know I always like to buy if something nice happens in your life. I want to remind myself. So every time you put that watch on, it's like I have it from my first ever salary or my sabbatical.

57:23And I think you needed that sabbatical to rebuild yourself. Totally, yeah. I think there are times where I've talked to a lot of drivers, you know, like sometimes all they need is a sabbatical. And what does success look like for you now at Cadillac? I think being able to build something together with the team that potentially can end up being one of the best teams in the sport will be a massive thing for me. And you've said previously that Checo is a character and not the real you. So who's driving the car today?

58:03I'm driving the car you know but when I put the suit and the helmet people see you differently and you have to be very careful not to get carried away into that character because at the end of the day one day you will take that helmet off and that suit off and you are Sergio and I'm Checo you know and so I always believed you know when it can get to carried away but at the end of the day Formula 1 it's such a small part once you're done with it I mean hopefully we all have 50 years ahead of us you know there are so much more things and at the end of the day the sport is big it's important but it's just such a small part we're going to wrap up with a few quickfire questions after all your experiences the great highs the race wins the challenges the difficult times what do you believe high performance is?

58:57it's not giving up in difficult circumstances. What are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and everyone around you is expected to buy into? Hunger, number one. The drive force, you know, to don't just... I hate when people just deliver. You know, if you hire someone just to deliver, everyone can deliver, but to deliver to their maximum. For me, it's... And building that culture around you to people deliver at their maximum, not just deliver. It's a big difference. Being able to deliver at your maximum, I want to be with part of that team, you know, and that surrounding. If you're able to get that surrounding around you, you made it.

59:45And then gratitude. I think it's very important, those three. What is your biggest strength? I'll say it's my character, my brain. And your biggest weakness? I might get fed up a bit too quick. Impatience, okay. Impatience. From everything that you've seen inside Cadillac, do you believe that this is a team building something that one day can deliver race wins and potential world championships? Of course, it's very early days. We are only on our sixth race and there's a sort of culture that is building. It's very early to answer you that question. but I can see that the owners will not stop until they do that, you know and you're talking about General Motors and TWG so there are two great forces that are not going to stop until they get there And for people that have listened to this fantastic conversation your golden rule for other people to live a high performance life is to never give up never give up and enjoy the ride And can I ask you one last question?

1:00:54you're a father of four children what would you want them to say about you? That I always look to do the best and to use the most of my capabilities to reach my potential whether that potential is to be a world champion or to be a great entrepreneur whatever is that potential I always deliver to that potential and that I was grateful Well we've got here a little memento and a thank you gift for you coming on the show So those are the commentary notes from the TV coverage of the day that you won your first Grand Prix. So those are all the little bits of information that were being used. This is how it started.

1:01:36Exactly. Oh my God. That's where it started. That's a gift from us to you. And, you know, that is a reminder to you and your kids that you absolutely have found the edge. You have found the limit. And it's a pleasure. Thank you so much. I will save it at home. It will have a nice place at home. Thank you so much, Sergio. Thank you. Damien Jake that was the deepest I've ever heard Sergio go on the mental toll of his time at Red Bull and I know that you want to talk about a lot of the sort of upbringing stuff and the the way that he kind of built himself in those early days when he was living in Germany all on his own but from my perspective he really laid bare there what it feels like when you're told okay you're told a team is backing one driver right but remember Sergio can't publicly come out and say, listen, I've been told this team is backing Max.

1:02:27He has to just accept the criticism because he can't tell the full story. And then he drives well in the car and he feels good. But then the team designed the car to suit Max's driving style more and more and more, which is very different to Sergio's. So then that opportunity to win races and get great results goes away. So then he just gets massively criticized. And even at that moment, he again, can't come out and go, well, the car has changed and this doesn't suit my style. It's all about him and all about his failures and all about his struggles. But I actually think there's a few things that have been really valuable for him.

1:03:01I think the fact that he left Red Bull and the people that replaced him didn't deliver, right? I think the fact that towards the end of his time there, certain people pulled him aside and just said, look, by the way, we know you're fast and this team was not set up for you to succeed. But I think probably the most important thing, you know he he said didn't he towards the end that basically he was broken by that time at red bull he used the word toxic and then we spoke about his sabbatical i think the most important thing was for him to have that time out to gather his thoughts to kind of remind himself of who he was yeah a bit like you know at the very start when he said he learns a lot about who he is in the quiet times when he was in that truck stop all on his own and he was bored i think that was exactly what the process he went through all these years later after leaving red bull um and he is renowned by the way as one of the nicest guys in the paddock and i think that it's i'm really pleased and that he's had this kind of opportunity with cadillac to not leave in the in the way that he had left with red bull yeah definitely i agree with everything you've said jake i really enjoyed him i liked the i liked his energy he was really calm yeah and considered and plight so you can see why he's been such a valuable member of every team that he's been a part of and again I wouldn't underestimate that that point he said that he's left on good terms with every team he's been part of and I think that's something that says something about the character of him the humility but the gratitude and but there was a word that he used there in the interview that kept coming back to me time and time again attitude because I think so much of what Sergio was describing was the concept that the Royal Marines talk about it as dislocated expectations when you think life has got a plan for you and then it keeps changing and I think he's a guy that's learned to cope with dislocated expectations I think I'm in a team and then it goes bust and I've got to negotiate I think I'm in a team that I've got the potential to race really fast and then they tell me that it's not set up for me and I think his attitude is the bit that was consistent through all those different periods of turmoil, change and ambiguity.

1:05:09And I think the fact that he saw, it's not just what I do in the car, it's what I do off the car. It's the way that I respond to setbacks. It's I make the best of every situation. So many lessons there that any of us watching and listening to this can take and ask ourselves at any one moment, what's my attitude like, regardless of the situation that I find myself in. And the thing that I hadn't fully appreciated was what was going on at Force India when the team was facing claps. And he was coming into the paddock, signing affidavits, having serious legal meetings, which he said he didn't understand.

1:05:45So there's the added confusion there. And he has to do all of that moments. And he told us moments before racing, moments before qualifying, and then get in the car and then switch into race driver mode and then hit your braking points and then nail the apex and then find a 10th on track and then try and make it through to the final part of qualifying and then try and score points or get on the podium. And as soon as that was over, out the car and back into another legal meeting because he had principles. And he wanted to protect himself and protect the people that worked at that Formula One team.

1:06:14And I agree with you that whether you love or don't love Formula One, whether you care or don't care about that as a sport, that was a very human conversation. And I'm really pleased that he chose high performance to share it. Yeah, we never take for granted how privileged we are that people trust us to come and share those insights with us. and that's another great example of a great bloke doing a great job and willing to share his great insights. Absolutely. Thank you very much, mate. Cheers, mate. Really enjoyed it and I hope that you enjoyed it too. If you did, please don't just keep this to yourself.

1:06:44Share it with your friends. Tell people that you heard Sergio on High Performance and send them the episode. Please also hit like and hit subscribe. You know, almost everyone that enjoys these conversations, they don't subscribe to the channel and it makes such a big difference for us if we can grow our subscribers, if we can get the likes. it means we can keep on attracting incredible guests and having remarkable conversations with them so please make sure you do that don't forget you can delve into the archive for so many great Formula One conversations but we will see you every Monday every Wednesday, every Friday for new episodes of High Performance I appreciate you being with us remember, stay humble, curious and empathetic and we'll see you next time

1:07:57We'll see you next time. risk free for 60 days.