Southgate’s Legacy and What’s Next For England?

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now, Roman Kemp. The broadcaster opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health.

0:14Hey there, welcome back to another short episode from High Performance, where myself and our high-performing expert, Damian Hughes, just have a chat to explore the secrets behind the world's most high-performing people. We'll hear from you in this episode. We'll also hear from some of our previous guests on High Performance. If you want to feature in one of these conversations, then all you need to do is just head to the High Performance Socials, leave some comments or some questions on our posts, and you might just feature right here. So Damien, how are you? I'm good, mate. How are you? You all right?

0:44Well, it's only a week ago that you and I had a conversation where we were full of optimism, full of hope, talking about England in the final of Euro 2024, and here we are in the blink of an eye later, and it didn't finish the way we would have liked. No, it didn't, but I think that's a really interesting observation for many of us. I was talking to a friend of mine recently that said, imagine going to your children's sports day and watching your kid come second in a race. You wouldn't berate them for being a loser or suggest that they were inadequate or missing anything. You just say that you did your best.

1:18And I think most of us can objectively say Spain were a better team. Spain had a better tournament than we did. And yet we were four minutes away from potentially causing an upset. And while it is disappointing not to come first in the tournament, I think it's also a reflection on the levels of expectations that we have over the last few years with this England team. Now, I think this is interesting because I think expectation is the perfect word to use here, right? This podcast is called High Performance, right? So you would expect us to have a conversation about what it takes to win something, not just be part of something.

1:54but I think actually we can have a conversation that Gareth improved England left England in a better place but also didn't win a Euros right and both things can be true at the same time Gareth can improve England without having to win a trophy and I think part of what's happened here right is that we've forgotten the situation that England were in when Gareth took over eight years ago you know we'd just lost to Iceland at the Euros and it was the end of an awful decade I I was at the World Cup in 2006. It was drab. Yeah, we reached the quarterfinals, but it was poor. We didn't even qualify for Euro 2008.

2:29England were poor at the World Cup in 2010, poor at the Euros in 2012, poor at the World Cup in 2014, where they got eliminated after two games, right? For a whole decade, there hadn't even been this moment of like a dramatic exit. We were beaten on penalties all the time. We also had that psychological issue with penalties. I think what's happened here is when someone's been in a job for eight years, we've lost the ability to remember what life was like before that person had the job. And I do feel that that's a large part of the narrative around Gareth Southgate in England at this tournament.

3:00Absolutely. It reminded me a little bit of when we spoke to Paul McGinley, when he took over as captain of the Ryder Cup team. And he came into a team where they'd won seven of the last nine tournaments. And he'd spoken to Alex Ferguson and Ferguson said, you need to reframe this and make yourself the hunter, not the hunted. because when you've got a target on your back, people will start coming for you and the narrative will start to shift. Now, in Paul's case, he went back through the whole history of the Ryder Cup to show that America was still in the ascendancy on a historical number of wins.

3:34So he allowed people to feel that they were still going after and striving a target. But I think you're right. I think the narrative in this country has been that we've forgotten the years of dismal failure. We talk about it as if we were used and accustomed to lots of golden performances when the reality is we can count the number of exceptional performances and wins from an England team in big tournaments on the fingers of one hand. So I think we've just, the expectation level has shifted and we've almost become the hunted rather than the hunters in this regard. And then people then expect that not only should we be winning tournaments, but we should be dominating games and playing in a free-flowing style.

4:16and therefore we have this image in our head so we can only ever disappoint from there. So there was a time where we couldn't even win games. Gareth's managed to get us to win games all the way up to finals, you know, successive finals in the Euros. But then it becomes about having to play great football as well and then it becomes about having to win the final as well as get there. And I've had a message from someone in the heart of the England camp, right? And I don't want to read out the message or say who it's from, But the feeling in the camp was that the criticism, the negative conversation and criticism around England at this tournament had an effect.

4:54The squad and the management only just managed to get through it. And the fear was that was only going to get worse if Gareth had stayed on. so how have we ended up in a position where the media and the fans are so hugely critical of someone who's achieved more than any England manager apart from Sir Alf Ramsey to the point where the person feels the only way to move forwards with England is to leave but then go back through history and Alf Ramsey had the same issue you know he was our most successful manager and yet he left in ignominy after that Poland defeat in 1973 where we didn't get through to the World Cup final.

5:31You know, his wife, Lady Elsie Ramsey, many years later said that the way that he was treated broke him. You know, he died a man that was quite bitter towards the FA and his treatment as well as to the press. So we've got a history of it in this country. So Bobby Robson criticised, Graham Taylor criticised. Actually, if you look back and go through the list, it's there, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. And I think it's a real shame that these are all decent men, that history remembers them as incredibly decent men that were in there doing the best job that they could. So why, Damien? Like, why does this happen?

6:09We all know that as parents, just telling our kids all the areas where they're failing or struggling or aren't good enough doesn't make them better. We know as leaders and bosses in the workplace, if we just sent emails to our team the whole time, akin to the kind of stuff you see on social media or some of the stuff that was said on other podcasts, some of them hosted by people that, you know, have been in that position themselves. If that stuff was put out in the workplace, it wouldn't make the workforce any better. It feels to me like we're desperate for England to play better, to play with more freedom, to be more relaxed, to find creativity on the football field.

6:41But all of the things being said and done around England are the total antithesis of this. So why can't we see it? Why do we do it? What's going on in the human brain that means, for some reason we we put a greater sway on criticism than praise because negativity works our brain is wired to to respond to criticism and negativity because the very primitive parts of our brain that need that need to be alert for threats to our survival pay attention when somebody describes an england performance as being shit rather than looking at it with a level of nuance I mean I was listening to some of the analysis where in the hours after the defeat against Spain there was like one of the pundits described it as we need to change our mentality and he was allowed to go through unchecked where you go well what mentality are you describing like break that down what do you mean when you talk about mentality because that resilience to get through with the last minute winner was demonstrated the mentality to cope under the pressure of taking penalties in Switzerland that seemed to be okay at that stage so because because the outcome didn't match our expectations suddenly we flail around for excuses and mentality is one of them now don't get me wrong I'm all for looking at maybe our psychological game can be even better and I'm sure the players and the coaching staff are exploring that but to just come in with sort of sweeping generalizations that are either negative or not particularly nuanced I don't think it helps anybody I don't think it informs our analysis to understand where we can improve and where we maybe can change it you know like we use language like we want to get a winner in well what does that mean somebody that's won something previously if that's what you mean explain to us why you think that's going to be a valuable resource because there's been plenty of managers that haven't won on the international level that we would still lord.

8:40You know, Antonio Conte was regarded as a winner with Italy, but he never won a trophy for his national team. I think the public deserves a greater level of awareness rather than just sweeping or negative generalisations about this. Well, let's talk then about Gareth's legacy. If we're talking about wanting a winner, you know, England in the history have won 18 knockout games at major tournaments. Half of those, Nine of those wins came under Gareth Southgate. In the aftermath, I heard one of the experts saying it's going to leave a mental scar that we've got to two Euro's finals and not won them, rather than saying it leaves a positive feeling that we've managed to get to successive Euro finals.

9:19You know, we're very, very good at looking for the negative. So I think we should talk about the positive and talk about the legacy Gareth leaves, because I actually think that for the whole tournament, we've actually been looking at the wrong metric for success anyway. Of course, winning on a football field matters. We made the final, so we won on the football field. We almost, you know, if it wasn't for a tiny knee, the goal would have been offside. If it wasn't for a slightly harder header in the very last minute of the game, it would have gone to extra time. You know, this is the smallest of margins away from us being considered winners.

9:50And by the way, if we'd have just scored one of those headers, if it hadn't just been offside, both of which come down to nothing more than luck or chance, right? We'd be saying England are now winners. You know, everything would have been forgotten and we'd have a totally different view of our national team. So let's talk about legacy, because I think where we should be looking is what's happening behind the scenes. This idea of the England DNA programme, of changing everything that happens behind the scenes. And you've been involved in this. we spoke on last week's episode that you've been part of a working group ahead of the Euros and may well continue, who knows, with the changes going on.

10:23So what is Gareth's legacy, would you say? Well, we were tweaking off there before about that lovely line that Jurgen Klopp said when he retired from Liverpool when he said that it's not important what people say about you when you come into the role. It's what people say about you when you leave. And I think, undoubtedly, he's left England in a better place than he found it. So I think his legacy has been that we are now have high expectations. We go to tournaments with the sense that there's a possibility we can win it even when we're not playing well. I think he's developed a generation of young players that actually want to come and play for England, take real pride in it.

11:05They don't view it as a task to be endured. they see it as a as a as a honor to be enjoyed and then finally i think he's also given the respect to all the way down to all the age grades where people feel that like when you meet gareth you like you know him as well as i do he's a man that really listens to you he's a man that makes you feel that you're at the center of his world when you're having that conversation and there's something really quite powerful about that quiet humility that quiet leadership that was spoken about that maybe gets us away from the typical alpha loud aggressive obnoxious type of leader that that we sometimes think that football has to adopt to be successful so i hope that his legacy will last for a long time about some of these quieter um traits that will allow us to be continue to thrive and be successful.

12:03Yeah, and I think that it's about unity. You know, we've spoken on high performance to the likes of Rhea Ferdinand, Frank Lampard, Peter Crouch, about the fact that the big teams would eat apart, that they wouldn't be together. I think that he has broken down barriers that no other England manager has managed to do. I know that we will never agree on whether his legacy on the football field is one of success or not, but I think there's no doubt about it that to just look at football results, to just look at the fact that we lost successive Euros finals, actually, I think dismisses so much of the hard work that's gone on behind the scenes.

12:38And actually, we will never know whether the next manager that comes in will enjoy success because of the work that's gone on behind the scenes, because of the work in the shadows. And you can't expect people to know what that is because Gareth and England don't talk about it. But the huge strides to unify every age group, every player from every different club, to make them feel inclusive, to make them feel part of the direction of the England team is the thing that I think means that he leaves England in a far better place than he found it and equips them for success in the future. Which leaves us with one question and one question only, Damien.

13:15Who next? Well, I think there's a couple of candidates that are worthy of consideration. I'm going to throw in one from a bit left field, I suppose, is Lee Carsley, the England under-21s manager, because Lee's a really interesting choice. He's a man that's dedicated himself to the craft of coaching and in his tenure as under-21s manager, he won the European Championships last year with a lot of the young players that we're hoping will blossom into senior internationals. A few of them, Cole Palmer, Anthony Gordon, have already done that. So I think if we're looking for a similar type of leader to Gareth that can come and continue to develop through that quiet style of leadership.

14:01I think he's certainly worthy of conversation. Whether the sort of media would get behind him and we would get into this negative sort of narrative again remains to be seen. But I think somebody like Lee is certainly worthy of it. And I think it sends a message to coaches in England that if you're prepared to do the hard yards and learn your craft, there is a route through to the highest position in coaching in this country. I think that would be an interesting choice. I'm not sure. I think that if you were the FA and you saw the criticism, so much of it unwarranted, but so much of it there because Gareth wasn't a perceived winner, right?

14:45You immediately put that to bed by hiring someone who has won trophies, okay? in some ways that's cowering to the baying mob that say they want a winner in there rather than going for someone that you know is the best person for the job but I do feel that I feel that that's where the FA will go I think that they will try and get in a manager who has got a glittering CV my personal choice would be Eddie Howe from Newcastle I think Newcastle fans will hate me for saying it but I sort of think it was a huge project for Eddie Howe I think he's done brilliantly to get Newcastle to where they are And again, maybe the best thing for Newcastle is someone that can come in and switch things up.

15:24Maybe the best thing for Eddie is to come into England and switch things up. And look, there's a clip that I just want to play before we finish this short episode from Eddie Howe, where he talks about his love for coaching. Have a listen. I did football management because I loved it. And I loved helping people. I loved developing footballers and trying to help change their lives. I wasn't doing it necessarily for me or for the money. so when I came out of it I was like let me reset and see what I want to do there might be something else that comes up in my life and a direction that takes me somewhere totally different I then realized very quickly that football is in me and it's not going to leave anytime soon so it took me three or four months to sort of get over that and then go right now I'm going to get going again in football and in football management now I think in so many ways that sums up what England actually need, right?

16:15Rather than a manager who loves to win trophies, I think they need a manager who loves to coach because I think that we've got the ability and the quality to do something special on the global football stage. I'm not going to say we've got the ability and the quality to win tournaments because so have Spain, so have Germany, so have France, so have Portugal, so is almost every other nation. What it will come down to in the end is who the cards fall in favour of because that actually is what happens at major tournaments. and I think Eddie Howard would do a brilliant job for England Yeah I agree and I love I mean his whole story of taking over Bournemouth you know as a young 20 something year old manager and taking them through all four divisions before sort of taking that year away that he described to us on the podcast to go and reassess and tap into his centre purpose what do I love doing I love working with young men that play football and making them better and then going on to Newcastle where in his first season, he certainly left them in a far better place than what he'd inherited.

17:14So I think if we're using the criteria we've just sort of lauded Gareth Southgate for, I certainly think Eddie Howe is a definite candidate that would be worthy of it. I think the main thing is that whatever manager we recruit, there has to be that cultural fit. I think one of the things that nobody, even his harshest critics, will dispute Gareth Southgate has certainly taken culture seriously with England and made it a competitive advantage. So whoever comes in has to recognise that that work needs to be reinforced and built upon, not something that can be disregarded. And again, I think Eddie is a great example of somebody that takes that seriously.

17:55And finally, the power of quitting. I love this quote from Jim Allen. Employ the power of positive quitting. Most of us view quitting as something negative, but it's not. Winners never quit, we're told. when in reality, winners quit all the time, choosing to stop doing things that aren't creating the results they desire. When you quit all the things that aren't working for you, when you quit tolerating all the negative things that are happening, you create a positive change in your life as well as create the space in your life for more positive experiences. And look, you and I have discussed often on this podcast, someone that loves to quit, I think unless you stop doing what you used to do, you can't find space to do what you can do.

18:31And finally, a quick question from the high performance audience and please reach out any questions for myself or Damien. Just send them across our social media. Coralie wants to know, Damien, what is your take on quiet quitting? Well, quiet quitting has been in the mainstream for the last couple of years post-COVID. It's basically where people withdraw their efforts. They do the bare minimum to get by in the workplace. I think it's always been there. You know, silence is feedback that when somebody chooses not to answer you, they are giving you feedback that they either don't trust you or they don't feel safe with the answer that you're giving.

19:04Quiet quitting is feedback on the culture that you've inherited. You don't feel that you're being respected. You don't feel you belong. You don't feel your voice matters. So it's just your way of protesting and therefore withdrawing your efforts. So I think anyone, when you start to see things like absence rates going or patrician rates getting high or people starting to pull back on the level of effort and commitment they show, it's feedback and it's feedback on the culture and the way that the leaders are treating their staff. So it's something to be aware of and take incredibly seriously. Very good.

19:39Next time you don't reply to one of my WhatsApps, I will know why. Damien, thank you so much, mate. Thanks, mate. I love these chats. Me too. And Gareth, thank you. You leave English football in a better place than you found it. Thanks for listening. See you soon.