Sports Psychologist, Dr. Pippa Grange: How to Overcome the Fear of Not Being Good Enough

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1:44I would like people to understand that they have loads more agency over the amount of space that fear takes up in their life than they think they do. What I'm hoping to do is help people see that you can change the story. You have endless possibilities in your own imagination. It's about not being ostracised, not being shamed. Shamed is the central material of that not good enough fear. We have got the capability to turn that down. That is the voice of Dr. Pippa Grange, a world-renowned and highly sought-after sports psychologist who helped reshape the mind of the England men's football team during their run to the 2018 World Cup semi-final.

2:26But her work and her message goes far beyond sports. Because we begin this episode at the point where Pippa introduces a powerful idea for you. That many of us are living with something that she calls not good enough fear. It's not something you can fix with a trick or a tool. It sits beneath so much of how we live, how we perform, how we lead our lives. And most of us don't even realise it. Yet in this chat, Pippa's going to reveal how fear shows up in subtle ways, why so many high performers hide behind perfectionism, what it really takes to change the story you tell yourself, and how you can end your relationship with fear.

3:04So hit follow on Apple or Spotify so you never miss an episode and help us grow the channel as we welcome Dr. Pippa Grange to High Performance.

3:16I would like people to understand that they have loads more agency, loads more power and control over the amount of space that fear takes up in their life than they think they do. But the thing is, most kinds of fear, unless it's a fear you feel when you've driven too quick into a, you know, into a bend and you get that immediate sort of adrenaline rush, that will dissipate when the circumstance goes away. But most other types of fear, particularly not good enough fear does not go away on its own so not only have we got the power to do something about it you know we actually have to intervene to create the kind of psychological space so that we can enjoy life and we can access the performance available in front of us there's a really key distinction here pippa that um really fascinates me but i think people need to understand it about in the moment fear and not good enough fear.

4:10Would you just explain that distinction? It all starts in the brain and in our evolution. And basically, we have two systems, what I call the old circuitry and the new circuitry in our brains. And the old circuitry contains the amygdala and the fear response system. That's been there forever in our human evolution. It's the thing that helps us survive. It's a thing that tells us that there's a threat on the horizon one way or another and that we need to respond to it quickly. Then at some point in our evolution, we got an upgrade and we got a prefrontal cortex that helps us work out the meaning of life and reason and be rational and choose and decide, you know, beyond instinct and reactivity and the survival mechanism.

4:55But basically what happened is that those two things don't operate at the same level. Not only did we not get a full upgrade so we could be reasonable all the time, they don't operate at the same level. And the fear system operates just a half second quicker than the frontal cortex, the reason system. And so it's this constant battle in us for who's in charge, who's in the driving seat, reason or fear, or reason or survival drive. So consequently, you know, what has happened over time, those two sort of the central fears that have come from that amygdala, which are about being abandoned or dying, there are two big fears.

5:34We're going to be killed, we're not going to make it, or we're going to be abandoned. And in contemporary society, maybe that feels more like we're going to be rejected. And so we've got in the moment fear, which I would describe as natural, organic, reasonable, definitely needed. If there is a threat, we have to respond, right? We don't want to live without fear. That's why it's called fearless, not fearless. You don't want to be fearless. We need some, right? But that's in the moment fear. But what's happened in our society and in our cultural response to society is that we've got really, that abandonment fear has sort of turned into something else.

6:15And we've got really worried, really anxious, really fearful about not being good enough. It's like a contemporary manifestation of being abandoned. And so we've got this stuff you need in the moment fear, and without it, you wouldn't respond adequately to protect yourself. You wouldn't predict, you wouldn't see down the road and make a good choice. But then we've got this stuff that's totally man-made. It's triggered naturally, but the way that we recycle it in our own minds and in our cultures is man-made. It's about avoiding failure. It's about never looking bad. It's about not being ostracized, not being shamed.

6:55Shamed is the central material of that not good enough fear. And, you know, for me, it is present in so many of our lives in a way that is just a thief. It takes all the space for other experiences, particularly the positive experiences like joy or contentment. And we don't need so much of it. And we have got the capability to turn that down. I think this is really interesting because I think if you start talking about fear, people do see it in a certain way. I don't think they see fear as, well, what will my friends think when they come round and the house is a mess? What will the teacher think when my son or daughter goes to school with dirty shoes?

7:34What will my parents think when I invite them over for a dinner party and the food's not very good? And it's only now when I start reimagining fear as this kind of daily shame, if you like, like about letting other people down and letting ourselves down, that you get an idea that it is, like, I would have said I'm not a fearful person. I'm now thinking, like, every single day I'm doing things purely so that other people think I've done a good job on that, you know? Right. I remember now I made my daughter's snack today, and I looked at it and thought, well, is the teacher going to think that's healthy?

8:07Or are they going to judge the fact I put hula hoops in there? Like, what use is that? Well, some of it is useful, right? Some of it can orient us towards improvement and achieving a goal in life. But a lot of it is just waste material. It needs to go in the bin. It's not helpful. And you think how often it actually takes up your time. So the organic fear, the in-the-moment fear, it's actually when something is really threatening you now. Whereas when you're talking about what will the teacher think or, you know, how often we predict something that might be a bit shaming or embarrassing even, you know, we're always in the future or we're always in the past.

8:48Neither of those things are real, but they take up most of our time. So when does this start to develop? So if you think of it in relation to children, right the way through to adulthood, when does this fear of not being good enough start to take root and then shape our perceptions of the world? Well, the thing about those fear systems that I was telling you about, they're fully developed in the unborn child. So before some of the physical attributes of a human being are fully functional, the fear system is fully functional, right? So we're primed for fear. We're wired for fear, which is why we have to culturally manage it and personally manage it.

9:30So then you have this infant child who is dependent on other people for longer than most other mammals, right? And in that period of, let's say, nine months or however long after a child's born, they are utterly dependent on signals and relationship and connection to another human being. that's where it starts right so if that child is feeling safe and loved they are going to develop a starting view of the world that is about safety and love right if it's the opposite of that and they feel need and want and fear fear is provoked all the time then that's their starting view but then you you know we go through this sort of cultural journey of life that is a journey of social conditioning and reinforcement on top of our base wiring.

10:23We've always got both going on. It's not an either or proposition. So then, you know, the kind of messages that you get as a child, kind of messages that you get from key people in your life, which is generally parent, guardian, but then teachers, coaches, et cetera, are so important in helping you know how to respond to fear well and helping reduce the burden of shame so can you give us an example of that then pippa about about those kind of messages that either alleviate or or reinforce yeah i mean um you know something i use sometimes when i'm talking about this with coaches or athletes or businesses is um have you seen uh the movie whiplash have either of you seen the movie whiplash it's a must watch does that ruin the story a little bit sorry i compare dead poets society and robin williams is confident encouragement pushing of of these young men in his class to do more to to get a hold of it to be brave to step forward and to find passion um and and you know it's in response to their error or to their apathy right he responds that way.

11:40That's a great example of messaging to lower and diminish fear and to lift possibility. Then in Whiplash, there's a scene where the student is drumming. It's a scene of a music instructor. And the way that the music instructor responds to the student who's drumming is the antithesis of good coaching around making it possible for somebody to win. He's belittling, he's shaming, he's personal, he's aggressive. It's in front of everybody and he diminishes that person. And so the only thing that that person has to hang on to then is fear to get through. And this leads to some of the success myths that we have, that fear is necessary to motivate fear is a lazy way to motivate fear is a short-term way to motivate and the cost is too high you know because then you're walking around with with the terror of doing it next time so can i jump in there then pippa and ask you around that like and this is more in relation to say john cotter the harvard psychologist that talks around uh the burning platform to to inspire people to change or to adopt a new way of doing it which to me I mean the origins of that phrase comes from the Piper Alpha oil rig disaster which always seems quite a crass way of trying to motivate people but how does that fit then because what you're saying makes sense but in sort of academia for example there's still that view that we have to frighten people that if you don't change you staying on that burning platform there's two things I'll say here Damien one is that we are always in a process of evolution.

13:25We do have to change all the time. And there's a burden that goes with that. My point is just that shame's not very useful as a companion to change, right? Motivation doesn't have to come from shame or fear. Motivation is like, I need a new niche. I need to get off this platform because it's burning and onto another one. We don't actually need the weight of fear that we carry around. And we definitely don't need shame alongside it, Right. So that's one point. The other thing is there is enough fear. It's naturally generating. You know, life is not smooth and, you know, always rational. Life's chaotic.

14:06And we're faced with fearful situations all the time. My point is how good are we at turning down what's necessary? How much is enough? And then what is extra that we just really don't need to bring with us? So it's going to happen. We've already got enough, though. Are there people who are addicted to the feeling of being fearful? I think my wife gets annoyed at me because I talk about it on this podcast all the time. She's quite a good case study for lots of our conversations. And she says, are you talking about me again? Someone spoke to me in the supermarket about what you'd said. So I remember her.

14:42I'll explain a bit more in just a second. But we were going on holiday, which often gives her an anxious period before we go. All the fears that could possibly go wrong. And then one year she wasn't worrying much. And she said to me, I'm worried. I haven't worried enough. Almost like the worry is going to be the thing that stops the bad thing from happening. Is that something that people suffer with? Yeah, absolutely. You know, she's not on her own there at all. But it's, you know, there's part of that that's habit and the mental habit of what you do when you're getting ready. So you see this in dressing rooms in every sport in the world.

15:21You look around and there's some people who completely occupy themselves with something. They need to be occupied before a performance. That's part of their getting ready. So sometimes like worrying about the details of a flight and whether your cab's on time and all the rest of it is occupying yourself while you're getting ready for a performance. And others just have their tunes on and they're sitting on their bench and they seem to be really chilled out, right? But that's their way of getting ready. There isn't like a one size fits all. So quite often what we see is the habit of occupying your mind because you're getting ready or you're kind of excited and excited feels a bit, you know, can feel stressful a bit like worry.

16:01So there's that part of it. It's just whether it is your starting view of something. I'm very close to somebody who worries constantly and, you know, that's their first go-to way of assessing a situation. And consequently, it's very hard for them to access a good possibility because they've used all of their attention, which is finite. We've only got one bucket of attention to use. They've used all of their attention on what might go wrong. And therefore, for me, there is nothing left to actually use on good possibility. I can remember working with an athlete for a period of time and what would happen for him was that in the change room, in the dressing room, he would feel, he was really somatic as an athlete, which means that he would feel his fear, his anxiety very much in his body.

16:59So, you know, he wasn't whirring around mentally, but he'd feel really heavy and flat. So, you know, getting him to sort of say, tell me what that feels like in your legs. You know, and him saying it's like they're like stuck, you know, like I'm stuck in clay. I can't move. It's like lead kind of feeling in my legs. I'm like, what would we do about clay legs, clay stuck legs? and taking him into an activity of visualization that was about actually melting away or digging out that clay. And then, you know, what helped the kind of energy that he did want, which was, because that's also important, what do you want to feel like now?

17:39Instead of thinking, I should always be calm. What do you want to feel like now? Because sometimes it's quite up or it's quite elevated and it's quite sort of adrenal and excited for a performer. It's like, what would give you that? And for him, it was music. So it's like, you know, well, there's a couple of tunes that really lift me. It's like, okay, let's do a visualization where we dig out the clay and get you standing on firm ground. What does that ground feel like? What does the energy in your legs feel like now? And there's a theme tune for it. So then when he's starting to feel, you know, in the tunnel or, you know, on the way out, when he's starting to feel like he's heavy, he comes back to that visualization of the energy moving through his legs and he's hips and his spine in the right way, he can access that.

18:25And he's got a theme tune in his head for it too. So do you think people can do this for themselves? Or do you think that it's necessary to have somebody ask these questions of them? Absolutely you can. Absolutely. The thing about imagination is it's vast, it's endless, it's, you know, so rich. I bet you at the end of this conversation, you'll both be thinking about the images for when you feel you've had moments of anxiety or when you felt amazing before performances what was the physical feel temperature texture of those things everybody has that kind of imagination available to them and that example might not be the right example for everyone but you have endless possibilities in your own imagination which is why i just really like this stuff you don't you don't need an expert to come and tell me this you just have to tune into you and what's going on and respond from your own wisdom so for the pervasive fear that floats under the surface not necessarily one way you can just apportion an energy and change it that it's just constantly there yeah it's not good at this i suppose shame you've described it as shame being the deadliest of our emotions haven't you yeah well the really important thing to distinguish here is that techniques will work for in the moment fear and for those anxieties and worries that we've been talking about when we're talking about not good enough fear, it's a perspective change.

19:48It will not be solved by a technique. And this is what annoys me so much in the kind of self-help field sometimes of we were just desperate for a prescription for everything. This is pervasive and real and big in our lives. And what I'm hoping to do is help people see that you can change the story. You can change the underpinning story. You can stay long enough and see where not good enough fear is showing up for you. Then face what is costing you in your life and start to replace it. But you cannot do that in 20 minutes. If you make that decision today that you want to really have a look at where not good enough fear is showing up in your life, that's going to take you a while.

20:32Everybody's journey is different, certainly. And it will keep coming up. But you get better and better and better at managing the volume that's there, managing how much and how you can respond. How do we start? So you start by seeing it. You start by seeing it. So if I say to you, OK, let's have a look at really the places where the not good enough fear is showing up in your life. Where are you most likely to feel that? You know, so I did an exercise with my team this morning. we went for dinner last night and we were talking about human expression and how you know you can be so confident in one area and then another area like you're really anxious about expressing yourself in a just a human way and we're talking about singing and saying you know I'd rather stick pins in my eyes and sing on a stage somewhere in front of people why because I'd be shamed for not being good at it you know that's the narrative in my mind I wouldn't be good at it so we did an exercise this morning of like everybody on our WhatsApp channel had to put a song on.

21:36And, you know, they ranged in quality significantly. It wasn't the point. The point was the expression of, you know, our just common humanity. We're just expressing. But what happened for me physically when I put my song on was that I really felt it in my body. I felt really, you know, I could feel that anxiety all over my you know the weight in my gut and in my chest and my throat I could feel that anxiety because it was I'm definitely not good at that you know see because I was going to ask that Pippa that is that the is there almost like a hidden word there so like when we like there's that famous study where a group of five-year-old children were asked who can draw and everyone put every child puts their hand up and then at 18 the same group were asked and only 5 % put their hand up because they've added the word who can draw well or who can draw good or who is an excellent drawer in and that's the internal and that's almost like the hidden part of the question that we apply.

22:38Yeah and we wouldn't even need to add the word excellent well good but we'd already have interpreted that from the culture that we live in where you know we absolutely hero, elite, excellent, etc. And we feel that there's something wrong if we don't achieve that benchmark in all areas. And what that does is shut down our human expression. So back to your question, Jake, like first see it, first notice I'm like, oh, I've still got some shame about expressing myself in different ways. Okay, what does that cost me? Where don't I raise my voice that I might like to? You know, it's just a metaphor to share with you, but that where does it really show up?

23:22You know, so I'm confident coming onto this medium with you talking in this way, but if we were on TV and there were lots of people looking at me, I would feel less confident, right? I would have more potential for not good enough. Show up, oh, I can see it. So first notice where it actually is for you and what's the story under that. And then start thinking about what does it cost you? Because, you know, in your brilliant human potential, your expansive possibilities of who you are, this will get in the way. And we talk about performance as if it's this kind of narrow channel to good that looks a particular way.

24:02It's so expansive, it's so massive. And then once you've done that, and only then you start thinking about how will I replace that? And the things that I talk about with replacing is you would have read in the book or around, you know, sense of purpose and meaning. Probably the most powerful part of that is relationships and real connection, community, like the kind of relationships and quality that you have that allow you to turn down fear. And there's a number of other sort of options in there, as you know. So when we talk about relationships, then, Pippa, again, you referenced this fear of abandonment early on that is almost hardwired into our thinking.

24:44What would you say is the quickest or the most effective way to build relationships that are right for us? I love that you swapped quickest for most effective there, Damien. Yeah. You know, I think the best option is to show up as you as best as you can. You know, so relationships take us a while to build because we don't actually connect fully as ourselves. You know, there's lots of other reasons, but I'm honing in on that piece of it. You know, mostly we're in some kind of performative mode, some kind of performance when we're in a relationship. It can go on for months. It can go on forever in families where you show only a part of you or in work relationships, you only show a part of you.

25:33And it doesn't mean a full expose of who you are and everything you feel to leave you in a massively vulnerable spot all the time, but it's like, what stops me actually just showing up as me? How can I take off the mask and show up as me and when you do that of course because of the energy of exchange in relationships the other person is so much more inclined to do it as well and that's that you know mysterious erroneous little thing we call trust and that gets built much more quickly and the depth of relationship opens up so when you work say if we talk about a sporting environment but it's equally applicable in business or or in a classroom when you're working with a leader what kind of techniques would you encourage a leader to maybe think about or consider adopting that encourage people to show up as they are rather than to wear that mask i think the first thing is starting with themselves right so you can't you can't ask anybody else to um stand in their authentic self if if you're not willing to do it as well and for leaders coaches captains anybody.

26:45You guys have to do that on the podcast all the time. You're trying to build a quick engagement, not just an engagement, a quick relationship. So the more open and honest and vulnerable and real you are, the more you will get from your guest. And I think that's the same for leaders all over the place too. It's like, can you first see where you're performing a bit and you're worried about not being good enough? And can you let a little bit more of you into the room? And it really doesn't mean expose or you've got to tell them about your kids at the weekend or whatever else. It means engagement.

27:22It means eye contact. It means physical presence. It means if you're going to inquire how somebody is, mean it, ask, listen, respond. You know, it's like a type of intimacy i've made this point before but um we think about intimacy as something that just happens in really close relationships um you know partnerships or families right intimacy for me is a missing ingredient in our social lives our professional lives but you know as we've moved away from community intimacy we we kind of like feel a bit awkward about it but it really just means showing up as you and engaging and relating imagine the power of that this is very interesting because i think when when i knew you were coming on the on the podcast pippa and i was thinking about sort of fear and shame and anxiety and things i saw it as bad because it gives people sweaty palms and it makes them say no to social events or it brings them a stress they don't need but actually just from having this conversation the realization for me is that it basically strips you of your individuality doesn't it because you have a fear to be you to say what you really think and and then when you just hide away and you shrink and you disappear a bit and you just kind of try and act like everyone else and no one notices what's the point because your incredible uniqueness is just gone isn't it and that's actually what fear and anxiety and shame does for people it removes that opportunity to live a life of of real purpose because you've stop being who you really are and joy you know that's it's like it steals joy more than anything i think and and you know there's this weird paradox because it does strip us of our individuality but it also strips us of our commonality you know you've got that extraordinary wonderful potential in you and your what's that what's that quote you know personally i'm a floor stitched together with good intention, something like that.

29:22And so that's the same for all of us. We've got both. We've got extraordinary potential and we're a bunch of mess and flaws. And that's okay. That's what we are. And we can see that in ourselves and own it. And we can see that in the other. And in doing that, fear and hate get turned down. And I think that's just so powerful for performance in any way that you describe performance. There's a question then that really sort of resonates with me, Pippa, because like yourself, I've been lucky enough to say work in sporting environments where you go in and like often it's quite macho in some of these environments.

30:05And one of the terms that I despise is when people excuse behavior as banter. I have a throwaway remark that I often say banter is often the defense of the dickhead. that it's often an excuse for people pretending it's human when actually there's a barbed edge to it. And part of the reason I feel strongly about it is because I think it often strips people of their individuality, people behave in a uniform way so they don't stand out and risk that ridicule. Conforming, yeah. How would you encourage anyone listening to this then to challenge that kind of culture where uniformity or stripping people of their sense of uniqueness is endemic.

30:50It's such a great point to bring up. I agree with you about banter. There's a real difference between wit and fun, but banter is quite often used at somebody else's cost. To exclude rather than to include. To exclude rather than to include, exactly. It's got a barbed edge, as you say. And you describe it as the defence of the dickhead, and I would say it's the defense of the fearful. You know, I think people... That's more charitable than like yours. Yeah. You know, it's powerful too. It's like the people who don't feel that comfortable in their skin need a shield. And sometimes that shield is in making the other person feel more conforming or smaller or sharing the fear, basically.

31:37That creates a shield, but it's really, really damaging. and in terms of performance whether we're talking about that in an office setting or in a team setting all that does is lower people's willingness to take a risk and what does extreme elite performance require risk yeah you have to be vulnerable enough to put yourself out there and every time there is a culture of conformity for me it's impoverishing it really strips away people's ability to take that risk, to stand up. You know, you would have read in the book, the Richmond Tigers AFL, their Triple H exercise, which actually came from Atlanta Falcons NFL, which was like being able to stand up and say, to tell a story of a hero, hardship and highlight in their own life.

32:26And, you know, for all these guys had endured and tolerated and the whole world looks at them as brave doing that where it was personally vulnerable was probably the biggest breakthrough piece that they could have that allowed them to go into a different zone where they dropped fear you know and they raised intimacy and things like that that's like taking a risk that's non-conforming and it's so powerful but i agree with your point on banter would you tell us a little bit more around that hero hardship and highlight exercise because I'm sure there'll be teachers or leaders here that'll be thinking that might be a really good way of starting to create that the culture that they want would you tell us a little bit around how you introduced it and how you got it embedded into Richmond I actually didn't do it in Richmond Shane McCurry did it in Richmond it was after my time there but it's such a clean example of a turning point for them the way that it's introduced is that it's an exercise in vulnerability it's an exercise in getting to know each other so that the force of the bond between the team is stronger so you know how do you really play for another person or support another person if you don't know them you don't know them outside of their number or their role or whatever else and it doesn't have to be Triple H, but the idea is of a group, in that case, 40-something guys, a group each taking a turn over a season to come to the front of the room with everybody sitting and listening and tell a story.

34:07So, that Triple H is really just an anchor for the storytelling of, you know, the hero in your life, the hardship and the highlight. And almost everybody tells a personal story that'll be about a grandma or a person who's meant everything to them or a moment where they felt really small and overcame or and it's it's humbling it really introduces humility and the bond that comes out of doing that like really seeing the person behind the shirt or the human being behind the role or the title is so rich and I tell you what those people who go and do it, are more terrified of doing that because it feels personally exposing outside of the performance of your role than anything.

34:56But the breakthrough in richness of engagement and in willingness to really be there for that human being is huge. And so, you know, it's an exercise that anybody can do. When I go into work with a team, for example, and you'll ask them how much time they spend on hard skills versus what you might characterize as the softer skills, such as creating vulnerability and working on culture. I've yet to meet a high performing team that wouldn't give you a 30 to 70 % split in terms of where they think their performance lies, that 30 % is the technical stuff and 70 % of it is almost those intangibles.

35:35And yet when you go and look at their diary for the month ahead 90 of it is spent doing the hard stuff and and it's not always prioritized the softer things what's been your experiences of that paper and how have you managed to shift the dial so it's a fairer proportion it's a really great point because it takes a massive amount of energy to prioritize it the leader's priority on it is everything But the thing about the soft skills, I hate it when we refer to it that way, but you know what I mean, the less tangible skills, is that it's not necessarily huge pieces of time. Technical tasks, technical skill build takes more physical time or clock time, but it's energy and priority.

36:21you know so the the cultural inputs might take 30 minutes of the day you know and it's never going to look balanced in terms of the diary but it's the leadership prioritization and energy for that like what is the thing that you will measure at the end of the day and and you know do you have an accountable kind of culture where that's the thing you'll allow to slide off the sheet because it's always the hardest stuff as well so we're now going to move on to our quick fire questions

36:54the first one is what are the three non-negotiable behaviors when it comes to fear that you and the people around you have to buy into pausing and resetting resetting ego actually you know um can i can i step can i get back in the moment and actually notice what's going on isn't you know which is an ego reset that's that's number one second is remember the love and care and the third is boundaries so you know is this mind to worry about is this mind to fix is this fear part of today or is it ancient or project projected into tomorrow you know um i think yeah boundaries love and care and reset the ego if you could go back to one period of your life, Pippa, what would that be and why?

37:42I wouldn't go back. You know, I've had a rich mix of human experiences that have been both so much more than I could have ever hoped for and so extraordinary and also a struggle at times. But today's today and I'm very grateful for today and my focus is here. So a lot of people who've suffered personal loss and personal tragedy would choose to maybe go back to a point where you could spend time with your brother who I know you know took his own life how are you able and why are you able to be so accepting of maybe the things that have happened and not want to go back to that time because as painful as that was and you know there's many more people than me with situations of pain that are similar there is no value for me in today in regret and distress from there that's 14 years ago for me now and you know I think that to have him in my heart and keep him close in memory for the good the bad the ugly and as real as I can is a better cherishing of him and a better cherishing of me too so that I'm not lost to regret or what might have been, and especially on something that I just cannot control.

39:07So, you know, I would rather have my love and energy in now. Wow, that's lovely and powerful. And the final question, Pippa, is can you offer us one golden rule for people that you would suggest that people can live a high-performance life? I would say that the results are just an outcome and they're not your worth. Pippa, can I just say a huge thanks on behalf of myself and Damien, but more than that, the entire community of high performance who've just sat and listened to a conversation like this, which is really carefully considered. It comes from a place of obviously really wanting to help other people, you know, great empathy, great understanding of the human mind and the human being and the fact that we are flawed, not flawless, and perhaps that's okay.

39:53So thank you ever so much for your time. thank you it's been a great conversation and i love what you guys are doing so keep up the good work

40:04damien jake that was definitely for me transformational about what fear represents i never had this kind of mindset that it was that fear is an energy and all you need to do is or one of the things you need to do is try and divert the energy somewhere else i always believed it was like calm down relax sit still have a cup of tea and it was quite eye-opening for me when people says well that doesn't necessarily work for people all the time because sometimes you just need to divert the energy somewhere else yeah i think those three-step method that pipa described of see face replace is really effective i think sometimes just to acknowledge that we feel afraid and then face it and work out well what is it that is really uh causing that anxiety here and then have a different story around it is uh is really effective and also what she said about being individuals being ourselves which is creating an environment where people can be themselves where if they have got issues or they feel vulnerable or they feel anxious they can share those but it's a reminder that living in that constant worry about shame or something bad around the corner like we don't even see how much it impacts our lives because we've got no idea how we would be living if we were able to be free and to sense joy as she talked about yeah like something that was quite profound for me that I think Pippa reinforced there was that a couple of years ago, I remember somebody saying to me when I was having a period of real anxiety that they said, you are enough.

41:32And I think those three words of you are enough were really quite powerful of saying, you don't have to be somebody that you're not, you don't have to pretend that you're not afraid. Sometimes just accepting that what Pippa said, we're all in our glorious technicaler just where we stand we are enough and i think for anyone listening to this if they're the three words that they can take away and apply and feel that pip has reinforced that message it then allows them to live a life on their terms not on somebody else's or society's definition what a cool conversation i love having these experts on the show pipa thank you so much and if this conversation resonated with you listening at home please hit follow on apple or Spotify, help us grow the channel, and maybe share this with someone that you think might benefit from it.

42:19Don't forget, you can also get early access to every episode and exclusive extras on the High Performance app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

42:44Thank you.