Stephen Hendry: I Put Snooker Before Everything, Even Family

0:02The reason why there's so few people can win relentlessly is they sacrifice even family to get to, you know, snooker is my life, number one, that came first. Even before my wife, my kids, everything, obviously they ended to detriment of my marriage and everything, you know, it was all about me. It's very cold, but it has to be that. For many people, Stephen Hendry is the greatest snooker player who's ever lived. Seven world titles in nine years. Seven! In nine years. But Stephen didn't just win. He made winning look inevitable and losing look impossible. But you know what? Behind that cold, unreadable face was a story of obsession, of sacrifice, of a man who gave everything.

0:45His social life, his teenage years, even his marriage was given away to be the best. So what does it actually take to dominate a sport so completely? Who do you become in the process? And if you had the chance to live all over again, would you still make so many sacrifices for success? This is a fascinating conversation about what high performance can actually cost you. Welcome, snooker legend, Stephen Hendry.

1:16I sometimes found it difficult to put on a genuine smile after I won the big titles because to me it was the climax of all the work I'd put in and it was my job to go there and win. and sometimes after I won on a Sunday night I'd be back practicing the Monday for the next one because I had that greed which I think individual sportsmen if they're going to be serial winners have to have they can never be satisfied and I was never satisfied So do you think that anyone can learn to have that greed as you call it or do you think that was something that you have it's an innate part of you that meant not only could you get there and be the world champion you could get there relentlessly, consistently I don't think that's something you can teach I think it's why very few in all sports, especially individual sports can keep winning and winning and winning and dominate because I've seen so many players in snooker golf is my other favourite sport, watching a lot of golf they win a tournament then they disappear, you say what happened to that player they haven't kept on winning so I don't know where it came from to be honest but um and when you say it what do you what do you describe as it what is the thing that meant it kept happening that greed that never been satisfied that always wanting to win another one you know as i said before you're winning on a sunday night and being back in the practice table the next day very few people can do that um i mean granted in the beginning i had a manager who cracked a whip and made sure i was i was not going to take a holiday or relax but when i started to get success then it was in me i had i wanted to win the next one i want to win the next one I wanted to win every tournament.

2:56And I think the reason why in snooker over the past 20, 30 years, 40 years, there's only really been Steve Davis, them myself, Ronnie to an extent, John Higgins to an extent, but because they've been in an era with themselves, not one of them has dominated the way Steve and I did.

3:16Jake Humphrey: But if we go back to the origins of it, Stephen, I know that you started playing when you were 13, you described how you got that table at a relatively young age. So you're describing that almost mechanical nature of winning at a world level. When did the seeds of needing to win, needing to dominate start before that? I got this small table two weeks before my 13th birthday and just literally spent every minute that I could on that table. I just loved it. It was just something that clicked. And what was it you loved about it? I don't know. It's very difficult to understand it. At 13, it was just like, I found I could just get down on the table.

3:52And naturally, you see beginners in going clubs after they've searched for a queue that's straight for half an hour. And then they just don't look like they belong there. But I just felt comfortable on the table. I knew my dad didn't have to tell me anything. He basically just put my left hand down the table. I put the queue on and it just felt natural. Within a couple of weeks, I was making 50 breaks just playing. And then I started watching on TV, learning from the players. but I started to get pleasure from being better than people even if it was just family, friends I got this thing I'm actually better than people at something and that sort of I think put something in there.

4:27Jake Humphrey: And had you had that experience of being exceptional or better than people before that or was snooker the first place you found that feeling? Yeah snooker was definitely the first I played football in badminton at primary school being part of teams but never excelled never stood out not the bottom but not the top so snooker was the first thing in my life that you know I was a bit different to everyone else that's interesting isn't it it's almost like it gave you a feeling you'd never had before and so you stuck with snooker because you wanted more of that feeling like a drug I guess yeah and I think all through my teenage years I mean people always say do you regret you missed out on what normal teenage boys do you know parties girlfriends drinking for the first time whatever it is and I never felt missed out I just wanted to play snooker you know as soon as school was finished sometimes before school finished you know i just wanted to play the only thing in my mind was getting on that table wow was it necessary though that sacrifice a little all three of us having this conversation of parents right all three of us want our kids to live an amazing life and basically do what you did fine we'd all love our kids to find their thing wouldn't we and excel at it and we keep watching them do things and go oh that's not quite for them but maybe they'll find something eventually so was it necessary for you to have the sacrifice to go along with finding your thing i think so yeah again as parents you probably wouldn't give the same advice again but i was fortunate that i had parents who didn't really say stop playing snooker you know you've got homework to do you've got exactly that they they you know whether that makes them bad parents i don't i don't know but they i think very early on my dad especially through taking me around clubs and stuff and people talking i think he had he knew there was something there so it didn't stop me playing snooker didn't say no you're only going to play at weekends because you need to study and all that.

6:12So yeah, the sacrifice was probably necessary to keep improving quickly because obviously 33 years later I turned pro. So I did improve very, very quickly through the sort of junior and amateur scene. And if I'd not played as much snooker to study or do other stuff, then possibly the rise wouldn't have been as quick.

7:01www.alilla.com

7:22We'll see you next time.

7:33Jake Humphrey: Feel the sensation of an AI work platform. So flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Now open your eyes, go to monday.com, start for free and finally breathe.

7:49Jake Humphrey: We can focus on the sacrifices you made. What I'm interested in, Stephen, is what did it give you? So this enhanced status of being exceptional at something and being recognized. what do you feel that offered you as an individual different things really it did it does give you a bit of um confidence in yourself um in that in those days in snooker you're you're mixed with people are much older than you um you know i was playing in clubs sometimes in kind of british legion clubs where i wasn't supposed to be in you know playing league matches they basically smuggle me in play my two frames and straight back out again you had to be 18 to be in but i think spending your the whole of my teenage life and young around older people made me sort of a bit more street wise or more you know wise wiser than my age in terms of just life basically not in terms of academical stuff because I left school with no qualifications you know so that's that that went out the window but um spending life with like older people and stuff and then just experiencing things competition winning things it makes you feel like you've got something that's um yeah it gives you that little bit of inner confidence you've gone from being a middle of the road kid at school to finding a place where you're suddenly exceptional you've got adults acknowledging your talent how did you make that transition because i imagine that was more difficult for people around you to to deal with your success than for you personally i mean i didn't i didn't really take it take it in a lot i was just playing snooker and you know there's there's a time obviously in the beginning there's a transition where snooker stops being a hobby and starts becoming a job.

9:25But at that time, through my teenagers, I was just loving what I was doing. I mean, I was just playing snooker. I was getting to leave school on a Friday night to go down to London or wherever to play in pro-ams and not come back on a Monday. I was getting allowed to do this. I mean, I was fortunate, again, my parents, but the school was quite, because they'd seen me in the papers, the local papers, winning things. And I mean, financially, I've supported myself since I was 13, I'm not 14. My parents haven't had to buy me anything, you know, because I was winning monies and just buying my own clothes and stuff.

9:52and so it makes you independent, makes you feel independent and it was quite surreal, I suppose, when you're looking back on it. Did you feel like it almost happened to you rather than you made it happen? Do you know what I mean by that? Like you just were playing snooker and this thing, you just almost stepped onto this rollercoaster ride and you were just, in your mind, I was just playing snooker. It was taking you incredible places. I wasn't thinking at that stage that, wow, this is going to be a career, I'm going to be winning world championships. So there was no strategy at this age? No, not at all.

10:19It was just, basically it was my dad and I traveling around the country playing pro-ams, playing amateur tournaments. I was just loving it because I was playing snooker. I had no thoughts of, I'm not getting any qualifications. What am I going to do in my life? I wasn't thinking ahead to the next tournament the next weekend. That was my only thoughts. Yeah, I was just kind of like going along with it, basically. But that can't happen forever, though, can it? Because the number of people that we speak to who have not done what you've done even once, not been a world champion even once, and they say, I really enjoyed being a young racing driver or a young snooker player or a young footballer.

10:55But I never realised that to carry on that trajectory at one point, the hard work had to kick in as well. So when was the moment that you realised it had to be about more than just playing snooker and enjoying it? I won the Scottish Amateur Senior title at 14 and then again at 15. and in those days the only way getting your professional ticket was to either win your national championship which I did or win the world amateur championship so at 15 I won it the second time I had a choice whether to enter the world amateur championship which I thought I could win but then I might not win I missed a chance to turn pro and then I might not win the next year so this is this guy Ian Doyle who had a snooker club in Stirling who had been to play some junior tournaments was getting to snooker his company sponsored the Scottish amateur senior title So he had a kind of meeting with my dad.

11:43He wanted to get into snooker. He wanted to take over my career, basically, be a manager, take care of sponsorship, all that sort of stuff. So between my dad, Ian, and I, and my mum, I was saying, we had to take a decision whether should we turn pro now or stay as an amateur. We made the decision that I couldn't learn anymore as an amateur. Let's just get in with the big boys. I'd always played my best snooker on the biggest occasions. So we turned pro at 16, but I was still practicing in a place called Miller's and Broxburn where my mates were. So we were kind of like, I was there all day, but we'd go in and maybe have a couple of hours.

12:16It wouldn't be serious. We'd have a few laughs, stop for a couple of hours, maybe play some three-carb brag and play the fruit machines. And just, it wasn't a structured thing. And unbeknownst to me, my manager had come into the club just to see what I was doing. And very quickly, he basically said, if I'm going to back you, you know, you're going to work your bollocks off. I've done it through my career. and the only way you're going to get there is, in his opinion at the time, is to properly work at this game. My dad didn't totally agree. He thought I could do it without this regiment of work.

12:52But basically, Ian took me out of the club where I was to his club in Stirling, which is probably 30 miles away from where I was. So my dad had to take me there every day, drop me off at 10 in the morning, and I'd stay there till 6 at night with an hour for lunch and I'd just practice on my own seven days a week. Wow. I hated it. I just hated it because this was just like, talk about stop being a hobby and becoming a job. This became a job. This wasn't like playing snooker because I wanted to. You had to be there at this time and you had to leave at that time. And it was just so hard to play.

13:27Jake Humphrey: Did you have a coach, Stephen, when you were in this club? No, and I didn't have a coach until later on in my career. In the beginning, I learned everything from watching TV on my small table to try and do the shots. He couldn't because small tables are rubbish. You can't play. But that's how I learned, basically, from watching Jimmy, Steve Davis and stuff. But this sort of relentless work ethic, I mean, his office was connected. He had hardware business connected. Half the building was that, and half the building was a snooker club. And he used to come out every half an hour, check I was practicing.

13:58Just poke his head through the door and check I was still there. But literally within a month or two months, I could feel my game getting sharper. And although it was hard, you know after about you know a few I started to feel that like my game was this this I was getting better and the first tournament I played in was a Scottish professional championship I'd had various sort of exhibitions with the top players and I'd always get beat and this is the Scottish professional was my first tournament after this this job started and I won it comfortably and it was just like wow this is taking my game to another level and we we speak a lot about this you do that one of the most crucial aspects for anyone in life is evidence so it's pretty shitty to spend hours and hours and hours on your own knocking snooker balls around yeah but it's not shitty when you then go and win a tournament because of that and it feels like as soon as steven saw the evidence that's when it made a difference well this is where the research comes

14:52Jake Humphrey: from that has often been sort of misappropriated about the 10 000 hours rule so the guy i don't if you're familiar with it Stephen around there's a guy called um Anders Ericsson that studied violinists and he found that to be world class you needed to invest 10 ,000 hours in it and I think people misappropriate it and think that it's just about hard work but I think for a static sport like where you're learning technique like snooker and dynamic like football there is some some relevance in the 10 ,000 hours and it sounds like that was your first immersion in proper hard work of investing those hours in it that you saw immediate results from it absolutely i mean my manager there's no there's no way he had any scientific reason for behind it he was just a scottish businessman who'd worked his nuts off throughout his life and he thought well that's the way everyone else must do it to get success there was no um as i say i don't think he'd put any research into it basically i think he thought if i'm going to back you and sponsor you you're going to work i'm putting it in so you're going to put it in um you know the practice can only work I think you need the three ingredients.

15:58You need the natural talent to go with it, and you need the ability to play under pressure. You need those three things together.

16:04Jake Humphrey: You need to enjoy the pressure. Yeah, but there was a phrase that you used quite casually in that last bit where you were explaining that journey where you said, I always played my best when I came under pressure. And you said that very matter-of-fact, and yet that isn't a matter-of-fact statement that when you come under pressure, you rise to the occasion. Would you explain where you learned that ability just to be able to turn it on in those big moments? I have no idea, is the honest answer, where that came from because none of my parents were, you know, done anything in front of crowds or anything, excelled or anything.

16:41But yeah, even the Scottish amateur senior title, you know, you play the tournament through clubs and by the time you got to find out they put it in a venue, put a table in, put seating around it. and I just always played bright. I just loved it. I just felt comfortable there. My first tournament, I think, I played a guy called Barry West and obviously you've got to have full evening wear on, the table's perfect, the cloth's perfect, you've got a referee. And I felt a little bit, I thought, this is different. But I loved it. But I was just, I couldn't, it took me, my first season, I lost more matches than I won.

17:18Simplified, they were better players than me at that stage. they were professionals and I was still I'd just turned pro so there was obviously that reason. Jimmy White was my idol when I first started playing when I first got on the weekend I watched it because the way he played the flair, the shots and there was a tournament every year where the Scottish professional champion got a sort of token entry into the Scottish so the seven best players in the world would play and won Scots so the eight man tournament, invitation tournament and I was drawn against Jimmy White in the first round at 16 or 17 and and I got beat 5-0.

17:51And basically I just sat in my chair in awe of Jimmy because he was my hero. And oh my God, when I got off, did I get a bollocking from my dad and my manager for like, you know, if this is what you're going to do, just sit and watch, you may as well finish now. And it was a wake-up call straight away that if I was to be a success, you know, I've got to get out of this like them and me kind of thing. And that was one of the best things I think my manager did that everywhere we went, even in my first season we stayed in the same hotels as the top players so I was around that because a lot of the players at Turn Pro would stay in bed and breakfast and stuff and then they'd come to play Steve Davis and they'd be above them already because he's staying in a better hotel he's got a better everything so that was a very clever thing to do to put them in a sort of level playing field in that respect

18:41Jake Humphrey: I've read that you famously didn't associate with other players once you were dominating the sport so when did you make the decision to do that as opposed to hoovering up as much information around them and understanding their their lifestyle and habits again it was a it was a sort of joint thing with my manager and I you know I said that Jimmy White was my hero but when I started watching snooker more and more Steve Davis was the guy who was winning and I thought that's a guy who I want to be I don't want to be Jimmy plays all the good shots but he's the man that's winning so we we kind of looked at you know Steve and Barry Hearn's approach where Steve you know that the practice the dedicating your whole life you know having no outside interests no you know girls parties whatever um and just keeping yourself apart from everyone else keeping yourself like aloof so when people did come to play they had no connection with you at all they seen you as someone who was above them because you didn't associate with them so you were playing psychological mind games before you ever got on the base yeah i think it's very important i think later on in my career when i start to you know relax a bit and have you know go out for dinner and stuff that there was definitely a part of my downfall was was becoming friends with friends with people um it's difficult sometimes because later on the career there was so much traveling you'd end up being in the same plane you'd be in the same hotels whatever and it's it would get more more difficult but um yeah in the beginning it was a definite thing it was just ian the guy who's my road manager and me would eat together we'd just go back to practice and then go back to the hotel and we wouldn't mixed with anyone else what what i like about this is that it obviously had an effect on the people you were playing because they were looking at you like you're an enigma thinking i don't know who this guy is i don't know where he stayed i don't know what he eats before he plays or how he's going to play it i can't sort of break the facade but it feels like all it was also quite an important thing from your perspective as well it it gave you a bit of armor to know that they knew nothing about you it moved you in your head above them yeah i think so and then there was part of me that thought I'm missing out on stuff because like a little bit more into my professional career, maybe 17, 18, 19, I could see players going out for dinner and having a drink and everything and a little part of me was thinking I'm missing out on it, but then I was winning, you know, Jimmy White, I get it going and going back to him, I do, but like, you know, he didn't win, of course he won events through his career, but he famously lost all the finals that he competed in, didn't he, that was the sort of big thing for him.

21:03Yeah, and you talk about people who don't realise, I mean, he's been in six finals and not converted once there has to be something that's not that's missing there if i've been in six world finals not won one of them i'd want to know why but i've heard people that have worked with jimmy

21:14Jake Humphrey: white in the past talk about this idea that it almost reconciled him with that sense that that's just what he does he like he he blows the big moment that chaos is and people love him for it as well yeah yeah that's part of his charm so what was your identity so how would you have described your identity then pretty cold really i mean yeah i mean miserable is that's a word that was that a conscious decision that cold aloof no that that was just my natural at the table that was just my natural way um i didn't you know i wasn't there to laugh and joke and and i knew i had personality and saying but when i was on the table i wasn't there to do to do that sort of stuff i was there to win and i think if you look at snooker nowadays and and i think most sports actually the competitors getting a lot younger and more like single-minded they're just there to win people always say to me there's no personalities in the game anymore there is but just when they're on the table they're there to they're there to win and i think steve davis was that and i think after steve davis again i kind of learned a bit of of steve and just having this not show any emotion in practice i would show emotion if i missed a shot you know bang my cue and swear whatever but when you go in that that table in the ring you can't show your opponent any weakness.

22:28Jake Humphrey: And you learned that yourself because I remember hearing Andre Agassi talk about his dad had drilled him relentlessly that he wasn't allowed to show emotion and things like that and that was somebody exerting influence on him but you came to that conclusion on your own in those hours in the snooker hall. Yeah again from you know watching TV learning, watching Steve Davis learning, watching the way he was at the table, not if he missed a ball he'd just turn around and walk back to his seat. There was times where I have shown and sometimes you just can't help it. It's human nature. You're not a robot.

23:00You can't just program it and then nothing's going to affect you. But in time, that's something that you can work on, I believe. I don't think you can work on being able to play your best under pressure, but I think you can work on trying to not show as much emotion. You know, even go through junior events and I would see fathers just castigating their sons and that from missing. And my dad never did it. The only thing my dad had ever done was, I was probably not even 14 in a junior event, and I missed a shot, and I went back and I had my head down. And he just went, get your head up. And that's the only thing he ever, he never, he never criticized me ever.

23:39If I played a bad match or in the car going home, he would never say anything. That's the only one thing he ever did, was just keep your head up. It feels to me like control is a real recurring theme in your career, whether it's the hours and hours on the bays, practicing, getting yourself ready, whether it's making sure you're not going out for drinks with your fellow pros the night before a game whether it's not smiling and showing emotion when you play an incredible shot in the final of the World Snooker Championship at all times emotional control was kind of at the centre I think of your success was it?

24:09Yeah definitely So did you enjoy it? Enjoy the process, you enjoyed the winning the moment you lifted the trophy or the moment you potted the winning shot but did you enjoy the process getting to that point? I think the practice was always hard to do I mean, a snooker table never changes. And that's one thing later on in my career where I stopped practicing as much because even in golf practice, it must be boring hitting hundreds and hundreds of balls. But on a given day, the wind could be in a different direction. So it's still different. And the snooker table never changes. So you're doing the same routines for 30, 40 years.

24:41That's one of the reasons why I stopped playing. I just couldn't do that anymore. So I don't think you ever, you know, if someone says to me, oh, I just love playing seven hours a day, seven days a week on my own. I don't think they do. I don't think you do it because you see, I was fortunate. I got a result from it. I was winning. But you see these, I hate the word, journeyman pros, it's to still do that and don't get it. I always admire people who can keep doing it when there's nothing coming at the end of it. I was getting success, and that made me want to practice more. If I didn't get the success, then would I be able to keep doing that?

25:18I don't know. So how hard was it then when you didn't get the success? The first time you were doing exactly what you've always done and you weren't winning games at snooker. If I take it forward to when I started winning, if I had a loss, it would be very difficult to go in the next day. And the odd time, if I played really bad, I wouldn't go in the next day, but I'd go in the day after that. You just had to... Again, this is my job. I'm a professional snooker player. I've got to practice. And again, I had a manager who cracked a whip and say, you've got to keep doing it, keep doing it, keep doing it.

25:53And then I would win the next one. And then so every time you had a disappointment and then you came back from that one, that would give you even more satisfaction. So you became comfortable with failure? No, I was never comfortable with failure. Really, you never saw it as part of a process of learning? No, I thought every time I lost a match, it was the end of the world. And I still, I used to say in press conferences, a disaster and other people say no there's the worst things happen in the world and everything but I always hate that when people say that because I think as a sportsman that is the worst thing that's happening in the world at that precise moment that you've lost a match or you've lost you've lost that isn't I mean it's just it's it's horrific and I've done press conferences where literally one word answers and just get out of there and and and sulk for three or four days not speak to anyone so yeah losing was is the hardest part for me and being a sportsman the

26:46Jake Humphrey: The fact that you can sit here now though, Stephen, and you're so eloquent and you're rounded and you do seem to have a greater perspective on life than just what happened on a snooker table is obviously testimony to the fact that you have learned to process defeat in some way or the end of a career. When did you learn to do that then? I won my last world championship in 99. and I think the following, the rest of my career, I won, I retired in 2012, I think the rest of my career I won maybe half a dozen events from then to the end of my career. And I think my whole process relaxed from the beginning.

27:27The practice was more sporadic. I mean, I would still do, if I felt there was a tournament coming up, I would still do that, but I'd only do it maybe four or five days before, really put the hours where it was my whole life before. it was seven days a week, four weeks every month, you do get used to defeat it doesn't and it's a different kind of hurt really I don't read many books, I read Agassi's book and he says that the pain of defeat is a bigger sensation than the thrill of winning and it is it's far more winning I would take for granted defeat I would suffer for days but there's a difference between it's sort of hurting and you want to do something about it near the end of the career when you get used to it and it's more of a depression gets in where you think, I can't win anymore.

28:11And then you get used to defeats, used to playing badly. And that was when, at the end, I thought, I can't take this anymore. So when did you make the decision to stop referring to yourself

28:22Jake Humphrey: as a snooker player then? I don't know. I mean, I still think I'm a snooker player now. People say, what do you do? I'm a snooker player. Snooker is what I do. It's what I'm best at. I still see myself as a snooker player. The reason I ask that question is my sense is that if we'd had spoken to you during your 20s you would have been singular a snooker player whereas i think it's a both and perspective now you're a snooker player and you're a father you're an amateur golfer there's things like that yeah and i'm wondering when did you start to add on those other aspects of i think um obviously you know normal life things like you know you had a girlfriend who became a wife then you have a family your life changes and i always i always fought against that people say oh you're gonna get mad that's it that's the end of your career and all that's you know you have kids that's it um and i always fought against that i was i i still kept practicing determined to keep practicing the reason why there's so few people can win relentlessly is is they sacrifice even family to get to you know snooker's my life is number one that came first even before my wife my kids everything obviously they ended to detriment of a marriage and everything you know it was all about me it's very cold but it has to be that if I look at all the top sportsmen, individual sportsmen, many of them are still married to the same woman.

29:38Very, very few. Very few, yeah. Very few. Obviously, it ended up the breakdown of your marriage and you probably don't see your children as often as you would have done when you were in a house with them every single day. Would you still have that same approach to life if you did it all over again? Do you think you couldn't have achieved what you did as a snooker player without that? Yeah, definitely. I couldn't have achieved it. I couldn't have been the winner I was and being there as well. So here's an interesting one then. If you had your time again, would you win less games of snooker, be at home more, and be married to your wife still and have a sort of family life?

30:15Or is the winning, which we spoke about right at the beginning, the thing that you feel you were put on this earth to do, to be a winner? Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's going to be a lot of people watching this thinking what an absolute cold son of a bitch. but that's yeah that's what i was putting i was putting this to win snooker match to win world titles and and be as dedicated as i was to be the best and yeah given the same decisions i'd make the same decisions again um whether that makes me a horrible person or not you know other people can decide that but i for me that's i made that you're certain you couldn't have done both who can tell but i don't think so i don't think so only looking at myself looking at the other people that i admired um you know the tiger woods is the faldos steve davis they wanted to be the best and dominate the sport and to everything else not that we didn't care or love these people but that has to come second yeah that has to come second if you want to do what i did yeah i think it's really

31:13Jake Humphrey: refreshing jake to to hear that honesty you know i think we we live in a world where people think you can be everything and the reality is it's a world where you have to prioritize and and you're decisions are pretty clear. I do really want to talk to you about the period where you you you struggled with your snooker because you're so in control all the time you're someone that knows if you can control everything you can keep on winning games of snooker so when you didn't win for a long period and eventually decided to walk away from the game how did you reconcile that in your own brain because the evidence was still there that you have the natural ability you were a multiple world champion how did you cope with that and what strategies did you use to try and recover from from from the issues when playing it's very difficult because i became an also run you know i used i used to enjoy in the 90s being people talking about you being the favorite you were special from the moment you started playing yeah exactly so then i'm not special you know i'm used to people saying who's the favorite for this so steven's gonna win steven's gonna win steven's the best player in the world steven's world champion steven's world number one it's sudden oh Stephen he can't play anymore he's not the same player anymore he's never going to win another tournament he's slipping down the rankings so you're getting all that positive feedback then all of a sudden you're getting all this negative feedback constantly and whenever you lose another match then it's another like is he gone?

32:37He's gone and that's all this positive is feeding you, it's feeding your confidence on the way up and then the negative is feeding you as well but it's keeping you down so for me that was very difficult. Just to not become competitive was the thing for me. People always said, why did you retire? So when you were still, you could play. For me, winning was the enjoyment. Steve kept on playing long after me and I said, what are you doing? I said, you're losing to people who shouldn't be on the same table as you. And he said, I just treat it as a day out. And you couldn't do that. I couldn't do that.

33:17I think when you look at someone like Ronnie O'Sullivan who people say he's had such longevity in the game, he's won world championships in different decades, perhaps almost I don't know whether that's a better way of being that he's not, his whole life hasn't been snooker like me, I mean my world championship all came within 10 years, my domination was that 10 year period where he's been at the top since he came in in 92 I was still the number one player and he's come through and he's still winning now the fact that he's not snooker isn't his be-all end-all but whether i could have done that i don't know um you'd i'd never know that so yeah it's it's i say that they're doing that i did like totally in with that intensity you know that you think it'd be impossible for that to last as long as as up to

34:05Jake Humphrey: now but when do you think you'd be able to watch some of these seven world championship victories and actually just go you know what i was good and i'm happy that i was good i think i think i did i I did my book and I had to watch all that stuff back. I never watched my own stuff. Going through YouTube and stuff, I actually had seen things I'd forgotten about. I said to Tom, who was my ghostwriter, I said, I was pretty good, wasn't I? I was doing things that I was surprised. I'd forgotten myself. I think I used to tend to... If people ask me about a world title, I wouldn't be able to tell them what year.

34:42I wouldn't be able to tell them. But if it's a shot you missed, then all of a sudden I think, yeah, I bet that was that one. kind of thing. But yeah, no, I think that was the first time I sort of watched back and thought, yeah, you know, I was pretty good.

34:54Jake Humphrey: Because it sounds like it's a pretty relentless, unkind place your head at times. Oh, very, yeah. Yeah, I mean, the last World Championship I played in, I lost 13-2, I think it was, to Maguire. And I'd made, bear in mind, I'd made a 1-4-7 in the first round against Stuart Bingham and I beat John Higgins in the second round. Granted, it wasn't Brown, but then the last match I just and all matches sort of like for the years up to that I was just sitting in my chair and I'd just slaughter myself basically basically the Twitter said look how shit you become you can't even play this you can't even beat this guy and that was yeah I was always pretty hard on myself So you're basically an all in kind of person which is very difficult because then when you're winning games and you're 20 and you're coming through and you're winning world titles you are invincible, you are untouchable you are bulletproof no one can tell you you're not great because the evidence is in front of you that you're fine because you're all in and you believe in that you're getting high on your own supply yeah there's one world championship I went before the first round and told my wife to bring a jacket for the party after the final I love that story wow brilliant but the problem is when you're all in like that when you're losing you're all into the losing mentality you've got further to fall listen we're going to finish with our quick fire questions

36:13three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you have to buy into? Selfishness. Can I just say I love the fact that's your first one, by the way. We've done a lot of these. No one's ever mentioned that as their first non-negotiable behavior. I've been told it enough. Determined. Self-criticism. They're good ones. They're not easy ones, by the way. Most people just say, turn up on time.

36:38Jake Humphrey: What advice would you give to a teenage Stephen just starting out on this journey? Work. I think that's, yeah. People talk about talent is enough. Talent is not enough work, I think. Very briefly, how low do you go or did you go with failure, with big defeats? I think the worst I got, I lost to a guy called Robert Milkins in the second last season, I think, of my career in Shanghai. In China, they call me the emperor of snooker, the king of snooker, and I'm fortunate. I have so much support there, even now when I go. But I'd lost 5-0 to this guy, and I went back to the hotel, and I cried, it's the only time I ever cried, win or lose at a snooker match.

37:17And that was the worst I ever felt. I just felt embarrassed, I felt everything I thought.

37:21Jake Humphrey: Can I just jump in on that, Stephen? What drove you then, a love of winning or a fear of losing? Oh, definitely a love of winning. Was it? Yeah, definitely winning, yeah. That's what motivated me to practice, yeah. How important is legacy to you? Yeah, it's important. As I said, in China, I'm still seen as the most successful, because I've won seven world titles. obviously it's debatable whether Ronnie will overtake that or not. We just have to wait and see. But yeah, I think it's important, yeah. I'm still, you know, people, the great debate is who's the greatest, me or Ronnie. And I think, you know, as Ty used to say, as long as you're in that conversation, you know, you've done that.

38:02Jake Humphrey: But how would you like to be remembered when you're dead and gone? How would you like being done? I think I'd like to be remembered as someone who changed snooker, changed the way it was played to be successful. you know it was all about aggressive snooker just go for your shots clear the table that was the way I played go for it obviously you have to temper it a bit when you get older you don't go for everything when you're getting to pro match but yeah I'd like to think I changed the way snooker was played and finally your one golden rule for people listening to this to living a high performance life agreed and on that we shall end it thank you so much for being with us I think it's brilliant to sit here and have a And to have someone talk to us who's so self-reflective and as honest as you are is amazing for us.

38:48And I think that, you know, I look at it and I think that that honesty is the reason why you were so successful, but also that honesty is the reason why you found it so difficult when you weren't winning because you don't lie to yourself, do you? No. You're totally honest with yourself. Thanks very much. You're welcome. Thank you.

39:08Damien, Jake. well that was an absolutely remarkable conversation i felt with steven first of all i want to applaud his honesty but also i i kind of almost feel that like i feel a bit sorry for him that he is so one extreme and then another he admitted he was all in and i think that's fine when you're winning constantly but to be all in and to find that you're not as invincible as you perhaps thought you were at some point in your life when it comes to sport must have been a very difficult

39:38Jake Humphrey: pill for him to swallow absolutely i mean the honesty is uh is stunning and and i really applaud him for that you know the conversation he had about putting snooker above family and relationships i think whether you agree with it or not it still takes real searing honesty to admit it i think you're right though i think the idea of marrying up that being all in nature with almost like the cruel relentless inner voice that he had he said that that's what had stopped him in the end it had worn him down the fact that he kept believing he was shit that he wasn't capable is a real a real insight into what it takes in his world to be successful fascinating thanks to him thanks to you yeah no thank you jake it was brilliant that one well huge thanks to steven for his time and what i take from that classic conversation is that those trophies didn't come for free not in practice not in terms of relationships not in terms of peace of mind either he was all in all of the time completely ruthlessly all in and what makes this one of the most remarkable conversations we've ever had on the show was the moment when we asked him whether he'd do it all over again and did you notice zero hesitation no regrets just total honesty he said yes he was raw he was unflinching and i'm not sure that kind of honesty is shared by people that often even when sitting in a chair talking to us on high performance people always hold a little bit back and I really don't believe that Stephen did that and if this conversation makes you think differently about what greatness really is maybe share it with someone who you think needs to hear it and we'll see you next time on High Performance.

41:58We'll see you next time. code podcast to try stamps.com risk-free for 60 days. Security program on spreadsheets, new regulations piling up, and audit dread? It's time for Vanta. Vanta automates security

42:12Jake Humphrey: and compliance, brings evidence into one place, and cuts audit prep by 82%. Less manual work, clearer visibility, faster deals, zero chaos. Call it compliance or call it compliance. Get it? Join the 15 ,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to Vanta.com slash com. Finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can post your job to some job board, but then all you can do is hope the right person comes along. Which is why you should try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash zip. ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you.

42:54It finds them for you. Its powerful technology identifies people with the right experience and actively invites them to apply to your job. You get qualified candidates fast. So while other companies might deliver a lot of hay, ZipRecruiter finds you what you're looking for. The needle in the haystack. See why four out of five employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. And right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right, free at ZipRecruiter.com slash zip. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash zip. ZipRecruiter.com slash zip.