Steve McClaren: Inside England’s Golden Generation & Sir Alex’s Man United (E412)

0:04First press conference. Steve, how does it feel to be the second choice of the next England manager? Whoa! This is one of the saddest days of my career. Did you think to yourself, this is me done with England? You're letting a nation down. That's what upset me. He just had to look at somebody, give you the look, and you went home in trouble. He knew what he needed to do to play. Yeah? Eric wanted more. And I'm thinking, well, they are in trouble here.

0:40Well, Steve, you're in the chair for your episode of High Performance. Thank you for inviting me. I've got to say I'm delighted to be here because, yeah, you kept me going for two years, that M62 corridor. When you were at United. Yeah, from Boston Spa to Manchester, I used to do it every day, six o 'clock in the morning. Didn't like music at that stage, you just started the podcast. And I thought it was a revelation, I really did. Not just that you guys are here, but constantly listened to every episode, couldn't wait for the next one, because the amount of detail that you got from people has never been released before.

1:23Even I read a lot, read a lot of biographies and books, and it's, yeah, we won 3-1 and we were top of the league and then the next season we did this. But to get really underneath and what is, and I always remember your first question, what is high performance to you every morning? And every morning I had a different answer. So what would you say today then? Yeah, well, obviously, in fact, I've been thinking about it And after seeing quite a few things just recently, I watched the snooker. I watched McElroy with the golf. I watched Formula One. I think high performance is delivering, performing.

2:11The high performance, but under pressure. I think that's the key thing. Justin was in and talking about, So, you know, even if you're a kit man, even if you put the cones out, you know, it's a performance. And I do it most days. So when I come in, everything's a performance. So meeting with the staff is a performance. Meeting with the players is a performance. So, and I want to do it at the highest level. So high performance to me is I must prepare for that meeting. And preparation is key. So I over-prepare. But that over-preparation gives me a belief when I walk in that room that I can deliver that.

2:55I can deliver that. And real high performance is when you've got the actual courage to deliver it in front of 23 players, 8 staff, 90 ,000 people and you're on the side and you've got to deliver a performance in that 95 minutes, which it is. It's all theatre, it's all a show, and you have to deliver that. So preparation, belief and courage lead to high performance. And high performance can be any level, any level. And my three months just recently, I've been watching lower leagues, non-leagues, and there's as much pressure as Mark Hughes at Carlisle against Jork. You see Mark Hughes on the sideline.

3:48There's as much pressure he puts on himself for winning at Carlisle as he did when he was at Stoke in the Premier League. So it doesn't matter what level or what sport. And the key thing for me is that that pressure can lead to mistakes. Yeah. So that's why preparation is key. Ultimately belief in what you are and what you do. and that is small wins that you build up. You get that belief. And then it's actual courage to go out and deliver that. And I've seen so many mistakes recently. If you saw the snooker just, you know, Mark, he has one black to go into the final and it's a straight black. I could have done it with my eyes closed and he missed the black and Wu, who eventually won it, comes back and wins two frames and goes into the final.

4:44So it doesn't matter what level, preparation, belief you can do it, courage equals high performance when you're under real pressure, if that makes sense. Now, there will be some high-performance aficionados like you listening to this now saying, Stephen McLaren's just said the word pressure 20 times in the first three minutes of this podcast. But I think that's a really, really interesting place to start because performing is one thing. Performing under pressure is something totally different. Totally different. So can we go to the moment in your career where you either took on a job or had a moment where you were like, okay, now, I thought that was pressure, but this is pressure?

5:24Of course. Going to England is the biggest. I always remember going in and first press conference. I'd been with Sven. I'd been with Manchester United. I was a manager, so I'd had this. I knew it. but to experience it yourself. And then when you, I always remember going up like this with the microphones, 200 journalists, photographers, TV cameras. And the first question is, Steve, how does it feel to be the second choice of the next England manager? Whoa! Because I think Scalari had pulled out or something and then I thought of it. And I went, wow, welcome to the England job. And I think the noise and the media was a part of it, which I'd seen with Sven, I'd seen with Sir Alex.

6:25And I thought, yeah, but nobody can prepare you for that moment that you actually bang, you're there. And no one had. It took me six months. And I think whatever job I've kind of done, and especially going abroad, to adapt and to change and to whatever culture or environment, it's tough. The first six months are hard, really hard. And the first six months in England were really hard. I mean, they had me on the couch and lip-reading what I was saying, and I remember Andorra and going and the crowds and they were booing. They were booing the bus going to the game. And I'm thinking, oh dear, we're in trouble here.

7:15And the press after. And I always remember the press after that. We won 3-0 and the press and I just delivered. Yeah, we won. Steven Gerrard was great. A couple of goals and led us. And no questions, gentlemen. That's all I've got. walked out and that was the change for me and then I went right ignore the noise it's all you did you just came in gave a statement and walked away yeah when did you do you remember making the conscious decision like I'm not going to answer questions after this I'm just going to speak and go yeah I kind of made that decision I think it was half time coming in it was nil nil oh we got the boos of all boos yeah and I remember saying to the players you know look it's it's my responsibility, you know, and I always think that, it's my responsibility, you know.

8:10You've prepared, you know, you've got to believe because you're damn good players. Now just have the balls and the courage to get out there and do what you do and, to be fair to the players, and I remember that, Stephen, and this is always, someone will always step forward, you know. For England, it was either David Beckham, it was Wayne Rooney, It was Michael Owen. It was someone who'd always stepped forward, Frank Lampard. And this night it was Stephen Gerrard just stepped forward and went boom and won the game. And that was it. And I just made my mind up, I've had enough of this. I am just going to be myself and try and be authentic and just deliver what I can.

8:53And so from that moment on, I decided to ignore the noise, be polite, say what you want, but focus on the job, which was winning football matches. And what do you think the difference was then for you as a manager once you decided to cross that Rubicon and just be authentic regardless of the noise? I'd always thought that I had been. And you always play, you know, and I always say to many managers now, the game is theatre. It's theatre. And if you treat it as a great show and you're part of that show, and you don't get too ahead of yourself and think it's just about you and it's just about your team.

9:35No, it's the game in general. It's the whole sideshow. It's the whole fans, community, media, press. So, you know, I remember someone saying that to me. You're just part of the sideshow, Steve. You're just part of the sideshow. You know, just enjoy it, you know? So I tried to do that a little bit more. and that's when, yeah, just be myself a little bit more in front of the cameras instead of, right, I've got three messages to deliver, right, I'm delivering that, that and that and sometimes you've just got to be yourself and I think once I kind of relaxed into the job and that was from Middlesbrough days, it's great being an assistant, but from the Middlesbrough, as soon as I stepped into the number one, it was completely different.

10:27No one's prepared you for that. And, you know, Middlesbrough, first four games, no goals for, 13 against, no points, pointless, clueless. And I went, I'm not reading any more newspapers after that, and just went focused and got on the job of what's your job? Is there a metaphor to describe the difference? Like, is there a way that, for those of us outside of it, that we could understand the difference from going from a number two to being a number one

10:59the only thing i would say is you are as a number two and you think you contribute and you are contributing because you're questioning all the time and you're asking so you're suggesting But that first day in management, you are actually making decisions. What colour socks gaffer do we wear on the trip? What t-shirt, what colour t-shirt? What jacket do we need to put on? I'm going, what the? It's like an overwhelm of questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a scratching post for a cat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Decisions, decisions, decisions. And I remember Sir Alex when I left, any advice from me? He said, don't seek conflict, you'll get enough of it, it will come to you.

11:54Don't have to go finding it, you'll get it. Sleep, I remember he always said, sleep, make sure you do that. And decisions, you get seven out of ten right, you've done really well. he used to get 9 out of 10 right but he said you get 7 out of 10 right he says you're doing well son I always remember that so I always remember if I do make a decision don't worry you're going to get 3 out of 10 wrong and you're still doing well sticking with the conversation around England you learning to deal with that pressure is one thing you relieving it from the players is another because they would have also been feeling that this is more pressured than Chelsea more pressured than Arsenal more pressured than City or Liverpool so how were you able to also find the mental capacity to remove the pressure from those England players as well I don't think we did otherwise we'd have done better in tournaments and I think that was the the key thing all the way all the way through you know I know you don't think you managed to relieve that pressure for them um we tried yeah we talked a lot about it um but I think it was very difficult because that's very insular that's very personal to each player individually no matter, you've got to give that persona and I think that's why Gareth was so successful he had that persona that calmness and Sven was similar but there seemed to be, there was always a frenzy even with Sven always a frenzy with myself I remember Gareth we talked about the initial there was always a frenzy behind that.

13:38So there's always going to be that and players have to deal with it and players have to, they're England players, they've got to take that pressure on and deliver as they do. And a lot, I've done a national team and Jamaica were the same. We used to come to Jamaica and would you play for Jamaica like you play for your club? And I used to say, will you play for England like you play for your club with that relaxed. And I've spoken to several England players since then and some say, well, within the camp there was, you know, Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool, and there was factions of discontent. There never was.

14:27There never was. We just couldn't find the balance. And people have asked me, well, we've got the World Cup coming up. you know, from my experience of three tournaments, you know, the three key things is you need energy. And that was always a problem. We had three tournaments. The players came, end of a hard season, the Premier League, Champions League, the top players were always in that fatigue. We didn't know whether to go on holiday and give them a breather or to give them an extra boost of fitness to get them ready for the tournament. So fatigue was always a problem. You need energy. That's it.

15:11You need energy. In your dressing room, in the hotel, on the game, you need energy. Second is you've got to keep your players fit. So we've got to keep Kane fit. You've got to keep Rice fit. You've got to keep Saka fit. You know, whoever else you choose. But you've got to keep your big players fit, all right? and three tournaments we had and Beckham injured with a foot once, Rooney injured, went out of the tournament. So for me, we had injuries. And the third and most important, things have to go your way. And a lot of things didn't, sending off penalties, et cetera. So then three things are key to anything.

15:59So England's chances, always going to be top five, always going to be a contender. And you can never say they're going to win it, they're going to win it, they're going to win it. Because you look at Argentina the last time, got beat by Saudi Arabia and still managed to win it. You imagine for Raw, if England had done that, would they have recovered and gone on from that? But I think, you know, they did. And England have to cross that path and be very close. And they have an opportunity because I think, won. The squad is bigger and better and more balanced, but you still need your big players fit.

16:38And who knows about luck and the bounce of the ball? No one knows about that. And it is key in all tournaments. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

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18:18Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch and if you want a hand our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence this is podcast advertising without barriers get started at acast.com slash advertise and those two games that cost you the chance to qualify for 2008 did you feel like it was luck that you were missing in those two games um well that will be the Russia and the Croatia yeah we were fine and we were doing fine and we were we were going to Russia and we were playing on AstroTurf

19:13you can't play on AstroTurf in a World Cup qualifier where we just need a draw and we're going through you can't play on AstroTurf yeah in Russia you can so we had to play an AstroTurf now preparing for AstroTurf is very difficult with the plays with injuries, knees, bland hips so we did train on AstroTurf and it was dry we went to Russia took us ages to land I always remember why are we circling around the airport, we can't land it's the Russians so in fact John Terry actually phoned Abramovich on the plane. Did he? And said, Roman, we can't land. For some reason, we are not landing and we're going round and round in circles.

20:04And five minutes later, all of a sudden, we landed. I thought, that's influence for you. The Chelsea captain delivered for England that day. And we trained on the artificial that we were going to play on the night before, and it was dry, born dry. And we come to play the game, and they soaked it. So whereas we trained on it, it was slow. They soaked it, and in the warm-up, it was rapid and lightning. So we had that to contend with. So that was the first one, and I thought we were a little unlucky in the game and one or two things, but maybe then we come back, got the look and the result. And, yeah, we played Croatia, and I actually thought we were going to win 2-0 down, come back to 2-2, I thought.

21:00Good changes, second half, and we're back 2-2, and about 15, 20 minutes to go. And, you know, someone hit the long shot from 30 yards and unbelievably went in. and, you know, so, yeah, some things happen that you can't control, which is why you have to control the controllables. So when you were standing on the side of the pitch at that point, did you think to yourself, this is me done with England? Oh, we had to win. You knew it cost you your job? Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the job, qualification for your tournament. So I knew we had to win and knew that it was curtains if we didn't.

21:47But you were also following a legacy of fine men like Graham Taylor had gone through that public ridicule afterwards, the turnips and in his biography he talks about how his wife was spat at in supermarkets and that sort of social disgrace that followed it. Did that enter your thinking at that moment in time that we almost put our England football managers in the stocks and love to ridicule them. Yeah, I think it's always difficult. It's always difficult. I remember there is relief, unbelievably. Really? Yeah, there is relief. So you get over the disappointment because you never do, but you take it, you've got to.

22:38I remember after going, you know, and John Terry was great. John Terry said, no, we're going to speak for you, Gaffo. We're going to speak for you as well. You know, we're going to. And I said, no, I don't want the players speaking. It's my responsibility. And I've got to go out and face everything. Oh, we want it. And I said, no, I've got to do it and I'll do it. And why did you want that? Because I almost think if John Terry comes out and says, look, this guy has been brilliant for us. The players were behind him. We didn't deliver. it's good for you, it's good for your legacy, it's a good message for you as a manager, but you didn't want that.

23:13No, I always felt it was just my responsibility to do that and face the media and not them because they had to carry on playing for England. I knew that. And I knew what the job was and I knew the consequences. I'd seen, I'd been at the side with Sven through many, many ups and downs and see how he handled it and I've got to handle it with great dignity. I thought I'd try to do that, press conference the next morning. Then I remember going home and I live in Yarmond and my house is a mile down a long road. And you come off the main road and it's a mile to my house and through it. And coming back on the night with my wife.

23:55And there was cars parked each side of that mile-long road. Wow. All the way down to the house. And I went, wow, you know. and I thought, I hope this isn't going to be it, you know, constant. And I got in, got into my house, got through, and I remember Craigie from Sky Sports, I phoned him, I went, I've got a mile-long queue of cars and they're all outside my gate. I said, what do I do? Are they going to be parked here? Are they going to be here all night or what? He said, oh, Stevie, just make them a cup of tea. Take a tray out, make them a cup of tea. He said, just stand there, answer a few questions, and they'll go away.

24:47And I went, behave, Craigie. And he said, no, no, no, they will, they will, they'll go away. So me and the wife, we made some cups of tea, tray each, went down. He put salt in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fed it through the gate. and I'll answer one or two questions, you know, which I did. Thank you very much. Drank the tea, left them on the floor, walked back in the house. Ten minutes later, everyone's gone. And to be fair, that was kind of it. And then people move on and it is right. You know, people move on and move quickly, but it's a week, two weeks of, you know, constant, constant. Yeah, and I was lucky because I had good family, very good wife, very good community because I was in Yarm, which was, you know, old Middlesbrough.

25:44So the Middlesbrough people were fine. Kids went to the school and said, okay, yeah. So it was an environment in which I could walk down the street and everyone would go, hi, Steve. They knew me as just Steve rather than whatever. So it was fine. And what about your boys though? Because obviously, like, if I try and put myself in your position there, I'd be worried about the impact on my family of this kind of scrutiny. What did you say to prepare them for it? I think it was interesting because after Andorra, and we'd won and we'd came home, and, you know, everyone was, even after that, oh, McLaren go, McLaren's gone, he's got to quit, and he's got to do this, he's got to do that.

26:31so we had a family meeting in the kitchen and I can't remember how old the boys would have been then only young but they all went to the same school and my only worry was that at school they were getting usual kids alike so I got the kids together and I said okay look we're in this situation I said carry on I said oh if you're getting too much stick you can't take whatever's happening, you know, hearing or things like that, then, you know, we'll think about quitting. And the boys went, you what, Dad? You have no chance. He says, you've got a world cup to qualify, or Euros to qualify for. He said, school's fine.

27:18That's so nice, though. He said, everyone's okay. Everyone's all right. And the missus is in the corner going, oh, no. I'm going, there you go, love. Unanimous. Four against one. We carry on. We carry on, yeah. I think it's so interesting, though, that when you say that when you left England, there was a relief, a sense of relief. And in some ways, it's such a shame, isn't it, that the biggest job in English football, I could be one of the biggest management jobs in the world, when you lose the job, you have a sense of relief. I think that's every job. I think, you know, no one will and can't explain the pressure that managers feel.

28:02Could you try? Could you try and take us into standing on the touchline in that final game? Very difficult. I couldn't. Not even that. You know, you are all emotional. You know, I remember when I went to Derby and Darren Wassall was taking a game and he was there and he took the game and then I took over the team in the next game and I was just, he says, all these courses, we go on all this at St. George's Park, just do not prepare you for that. Because I think he played the game and he was 3-0 down, I think, 4-0 down at half time. Right. You know, and, you know, that's pressure. You just think this is going to get bad, this is going to get worse.

28:50And, you know, I've had bad defeats and you internalise it. And you can't, you just can't, you have to be in that position. You can't, I can't say, well, imagine that. Yeah. And that's what it's like. You have to experience it. And only those who have. And I presume that's at every level. I speak to my friend who, you know, was doing Eastley, you know. He says, Steve, I can hear you. He said, it's worse for me than it is for you, you know. He said, you've got 90 ,000 shouting at you. He said, I've got 50 people behind me and I can hear every word and every swear word. And I went, you've got a point there.

29:29And I'm not too sure that would be, I wouldn't like that. That would be too close. At least if there's 90 ,000, there's 90 ,000 and it's far away and you're kind of zeroed in. You are focused in on your job and what you've got to do in that 95 minutes, which is the be all and end all. so managing that 95 minutes is key to everything. I think it's so fascinating and I think we're about to enter another World Cup, right? And I've obviously, as you know, worked with players who've played for England all of whom have told me the fear when you put the England shirt on what are the papers going to write about this performance?

30:07You know, that idea that they're restricted because the pressure is so great you've just told us about the pressure we've spoken to Sam Allardyce on this show about the pressure I remember talking to Sven years ago about it I just wonder what purpose it serves I wonder if we were a nation that was encouraging and embracing of our England team managers and players I wonder what a difference it would make I speak to two other nations and other national team managers it's just as bad it's not an England thing and I tell you something I've just come back from Jamaica you play games in Jamaica oh wow wow, wow are they emotional.

30:50Right. And I remember going to the island and watching the local teams and there's not many of them. Wow. The emotion that the supporters have, over-emotional, over-emotional. Well, maybe this is what's magic then about football. It is, absolutely. And I remember the last game, vitriolic. at times, much worse at some stages than with England or any other. And I'm thinking, wow, you know, and it's just the show, it's theatre, and these are such, you know, everyone's passionate, and that's why, you know, and you do create a sense of, you know, you're letting, you know, that was my thing, you're letting a nation down.

31:46That's what upset me. I'm letting the team down and I'm letting the nation down. And that's not 90 ,000 people. That's 50, 60, 70 million people who support England when there's a tournament on or there's a game on. That weight, that's what you realise. But I sense in the answer there, when you're describing the Jamaica experience, where you were able to detach yourself a little bit and go, wow, this is incredible, this display of emotion, compared to when you were on the touchline at Wembley. What have you learned about being able to disassociate yourself from those emotions to be able to do your job and protect your own dignity?

32:30Yeah, I think you just go along the lines and you learn from different managers. You learn from Seller Alex. You learn from, you know, Sven was perfect. You know, calmness personified, wasn't he? He just never bothered him at all. Was that accurate or was that just the public perception? Was that behind the scenes as well? Pure calmness. And I think that calmness, he made better decisions. Can you remember a time in England where you made an emotional decision and it wasn't the right one in hindsight? I think the key, and I've talked a lot to coaches and tried feedback, and I say, look, game management is the most important thing, that 95 minutes.

33:16We can all go Monday to Friday. And I just read the other day, Pep, talking about, you know, do you get nervous, do you get anxious? He says, oh, Monday to Friday, I love. I'm not even nervous a little bit. An hour and a half before the game, yeah, I'm nervous. And I think that is exactly right. And even during the game, sometimes you can be. So dealing with that emotion, you have to have certain processes. You have to know yourself very well. You have to know your triggers. You have to know how to stay calm, come back. And you have to have good people around you who keep you. And you see it now with, I see Arteta, and you see his two assistants who are trying to bump and calm him down and you can only make good decisions under calmness.

34:14And that 95 minutes is important. So, you know, there's been noticeable games where, no, I should have done that then, I should have done that then, changed too late, changed too early. Can you give us an example? Yeah, it was that last England game and we were 2-2 and we were on the ascendancy. and we're going on to win this game. And then you just, I think it was a little spell of two or three, five minutes where we kind of ran out of that energy and that initial steam just after halftime. And I always remember I had Terry Venables, Steve Round, and it's that last 20 minutes and you're looking for changes.

35:05yeah I think we should you know what do you think yeah well you know maybe we should change him maybe one of us maybe we should change Stevie G bring him off get some energy in that midfield he's run his he's run his and I was thinking he's our best player you know do you take your best player off and you think gosh if he goes wrong I'd take my best player off and all of a sudden you're thinking of the consequences bad Bad, you know, bad. I went, consequences of that, not too sure. Not, yeah, but he's our best player and I think he's okay. It's the consequences of it. I'm thinking too far ahead.

35:49And that's why high performances, dealing with that pressure and dealing with that and staying in the moment and going what's best for the moment, and you get advice from people and players, You have to make the decision on that on the game. So, and I think I waited about a minute or two, only a minute or two to make that decision instead of being, okay, okay, and just as I went, yeah, let's make the change, bump, they scored. And I went, damn, should have done it a minute ago. Just that minute, yeah. And I thought, damn, it's a big lesson for me. You've got to stay in the moment. And obviously then we kept him on and we put subs on to try and get the equaliser to qualify through and it didn't work out.

36:46And that's why I always say to people, and not just that, you know, I can recollect the times that I've done it. Then I also recollect, you know, Sir Alex, get seven out of ten decisions right, you're okay. yeah but you gotta get the important ones right you know and that was when I worked with him that was his strength he just went boom boom boom and he had courage in his convictions to do that and to you know it doesn't matter and do you know how Sir Alex was able to have those courage of his convictions I think because I think because he was a risk taker right I think It might have been Rene when he was interviewed by you guys.

37:32I think he was talking about his decision-making and if this doesn't work, if that doesn't work, if that doesn't work, if that doesn't work, we'll just gamble. We'll just gamble. And that's what he did. And I've seen him do it many times, many times, and sometimes he got it wrong, but not many. But he didn't mind. so what and this is he had great belief and this is what talk about you know his preparation was immaculate he had such belief he never blamed he never blamed himself for any defeat any defeat explain what you mean by that because you came in and said this is on me when with that England game yeah that's right and I would come in on a Monday and go I thought you know defence and that and you know and him he didn't play very well and he you know and everything I said shut up Steve it was the referee it was the ref it didn't add on enough time it was this it was that and I was thinking maybe we need to work a little bit more on defence or we maybe need a word with him or we should have you know nah nah nah nah nah and you know I've been fortunate to work with top managers and top players they're all the same they're all the same never their fault They've got such belief in themselves that they are right all the time.

39:00And it's a strength, also a weakness, yin and yang. And I really admired that. And maybe I was thinking I should be more like that instead of going, you know what, let's analyse Saturday why we're lost. And the gaffer used to just go, it's a referee. It's a referee. It's that linesman's decision. It was that, it was that. Right, we move on and we're quick. And was that the key, that it just allowed him to be able to process it a lot quicker and move on? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think it just belief, you know, it starts with confidence but ends up with great belief over preparation. And I saw, you know, I've seen that many, many times, you know, and United was the finishing school for me.

39:50Yeah. It was, this is what it's all about. You know, you do podcasts, you listen to everything that comes. I used to read anything on American sports because they were dealing with millionaires way before we were. How do they deal with them? You know, how do they handle that pressure and everything like that? And that was the finishing school. So can I go back then to the recruitment of you? because were you aware that Sir Alex had phoned around his managerial peer group asking for the most innovative young coach in British football? We'd all seen it. I was happy working with Jim Smith at Derby.

40:37We were doing really well. Great brand of football. Jim's crazy, but magnificent to work for. Good team. We were doing okay. I was enjoying it. And I was a coach and assistant. I wanted to be the best coach in the UK. I wanted to be the best coach. And that was always my goal. So you didn't want to be a head coach? It was just being? Well, I knew the progression. Right. So initially, to start with, I got the bug, as you do. And once you get the bug, you're a sponge for knowledge. So I got that and progressed. And I wanted to progress and progress. and get as far as I possibly could. So, you know, climb Everest, shall we say.

41:22That was my goal in football. I worked with Morris Evans and I always say, get yourself a good mentor. And you know Bill Bezik. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was 30 years with Bill. What a mentor, you know. Phenomenal one, yeah. And a truth teller. So I was happy going along, but all of a sudden was at a dinner and this one journalist who I knew was close to Sir Alex said, you might get a phone call in a couple of weeks. Where are you from? The man. Yeah, he's looking. You know he's looking. He says, yeah, shut up. No. And I've read all about David Moyes and things like that. No. And I never heard anything and never thought anything of it.

42:08Got a phone call Saturday night. It's him. He's got his voice. I'm thinking, it's a joke. Anyway, we were playing them Tuesday. I'll have a word with Jim Smith. You want to come to Man U, son? Yeah. He said, right, I'll sort it Tuesday. So we played them. Man U won, 1-0, we played well. And I get back, Jim Smith pulls me about 2 in the morning at Pride Park. Says, you'll be up early in the morning, then, eh? I said, what, Jim? You'll be up early in the morning. Oh, what do you mean? He says, you know what I mean. You've been talking to him, haven't you? And I went, yeah, he went, I know. He pulled me tonight after the game.

42:57And he said, do you want me to drive you? Are you all right driving yourself? Oh, amazing. Brilliant, eh? I went, oh, big hug. And I went, oh, fantastic, great. And he said, get yourself there, son, you know, tomorrow. Wow. So that's kind of how it happened. So I drove next day and met him. But tell us about that Saturday night phone call because we've had people like Phil Jones on here that told us about when he was recruited. He goes to see Sir Alex at his holiday home and the question he's asking him is, I want winners. Are you a winner? What's he asking you in that phone call? I think the key thing to that was it was just real short, sharp, abrupt.

43:40You want to join Man United? I'm looking for an assistant. We've identified you. And he kind of knew, don't say no. And I went, yeah. And he just said, right, this is it. I'll sort it. So I sorted it. Met him on Thursday. I thought I'd have the weekend off. He said, come to the hotel Friday. We're playing Forest on Saturday. Sit on the bench. And then your first session's on Monday. and that was it that was my itinerary I went oh fine so I met the players and they were like who's this I got introduced Steve McClaridge by the by the German he gave you he used the wrong name when he introduced you to the players sorry just like welcome Steve McClaridge as our new assistant I went oh what chance have I got you know the players must be going who is he and I met them on Friday who is he sat on the bench on Saturday played Knots Forest It's 181.

44:40And I come in on Monday and see the gaffer and say, well, what do you want me to do? He looked at me. What do I want you to do, son? What do I want you to do? I thought, I'm in for a bollocking even before I'd started. I said, yeah, well, you know, do you want me to coach this, coach this? How do you... What did you do at Derby? And before I could answer, I went, That's why you're here, son, because of what you did at Derby. Now, get out there and coach like you did at Derby. How good for you, though, to empower you in that moment, to be like, Steve, it's yours. That was it, clean sheet of paper.

45:22And I think there was once in three years we were together, he went, Steve, I really want you to focus on this for this game. Runs in behind. Anyway, and I went, and people say, so what is it? about him what is it about him he's just a people's person but you just you work for him he trusts you and that was the biggest thing he trusts him he trusts me first day with that yeah and I always remember and he always used to come out first 20 minutes how's it going Steve how's it going yeah yeah yeah he said yeah they look sharp they look alright yeah yeah yeah and do you mind if I go back in the office I go, just a couple of things I need to sort out.

46:10Yeah, no problem, yeah. So he just left me completely to it. I couldn't believe it. You know, we had experience. And I thought, and he chose people. He recruited well. Recruit the best people. That's the key. It's all about people. Yeah, yeah. And he recruited the best people, you know. He told them what the job was, or they expected to know what the job was. That wasn't why. And he let him get on with it. And that was it. and I thought, wow. He did that with all his staff, all his players. He trusted them to do the job. And the second thing, he set such high standards. And how would he set those high standards if you're doing the training and the staff are looking after other areas and he's kind of a little bit hands-off in the week?

47:00How are those standards set and maintained? I think I was lucky because I hadn't seen the days when he was fighting everyone. Yeah. He gained that power, but he gained that power. And it's like Ryan Giggs once said in an interview, you know, we used to hear that cough coming down the stairs at the cliff and everyone scarpered. It's like the headmaster's coming, scarper. So he just had to look at somebody, give you the look, give you the whatever and you went, oh, I'm in trouble to a player or whatever. And so people say you haven't seen the hairdryer. He'd never used the hairdryer. Didn't need to.

47:42What were his team talks like? Because I imagine this is a period where you're absorbing so much. Everything was emotion. Everything was to the heart. You know, everything was. What sort of things would he be saying then? He knew individual players like Gary. He knew your grandparents. And you say one of the players' parents, grandparents had passed away. Grandad would be looking. They'd be looking today. They'd be looking, all right. And everything was about, every team talk was about, you know, the 99 Cup. European Cup. Got a chance, boys. Got a chance to fly to the moon. Fly to the moon. Who's done that?

48:40You've got a chance. That's what tonight is. A chance to do that. And then we were all like, wow, yeah, the moon. And that was, it used to just, every time, even at me, was up and going. I think you can feel it even now, can't you? I see it in your eyes. Yeah, you get the goose because you were there with it. I always remember, oh, it was, we did a Legends game. So it was Bayern Munich against Manchester United a few years ago. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I went to it, yeah, 25 years. And we got all the players and we was in the dressing room. And Beckham come back, didn't he, for it? Yeah, they came back for it.

49:22And he gave a team talk in the dressing room. oh my god it was I went it's unbelievable you guys back in that day you were magnificent you were superb you were this you were that and it was and I went at the after I went I cannot believe nobody has got the phone out or none of the social media in the club had filmed it because it was one of the best team talks I'm not saying we went out there and beat Bayern Munich 7-0 this time but it was and that's what he had it was just a hook for the game and he knew the hook there wasn't many tactics really it was the hook of and you know why you're playing for this shirt We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners I don't know about you but I really love keeping my money where I can actually see it Unfortunately, traditional big wireless companies seem to like hanging on to my money for me.

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53:42Roy was always a balancing act. Right.

53:48What I admired first and foremost about him, I used to think, wow, what a leader, what a captain, what a man. Didn't realise what a good footballer he was. Never gave the ball away in training. We played in a little area. I obviously got out of that. Never gave it away. And he was, I loved him. standards, you know. So you were saying, how would you set standards? How did the gaffer set standards like that? Why? Because he had a captain who was exactly like him and set the same standards and demanded the same standards that he did. So he just went, he gets on with it. And he did it. And I remember going in and after one game and we won 1-0 and I was going, oh, well done, boys.

54:37It was great. That was great. that. It was good, yeah, you were good. And I went, Steve, shut down. He says, we were crap. He says, do never come into this dressing room, Steve, and say we were good when we were crap, even though we weren't. Honesty is what we want in this dressing room. Give his honesty. And I went, fair enough, right? Lesson learned. And I went back and sat down and big half went, little lesson for you there, little lesson. And he said, do you know, he said, I'll tell you something. These players, he said, they only need two words. They only need two words well done that's it don't flower it up don't give them any more just go around and just go well done well done and that stuck with me all the time brilliant so i just said even anyway if anyone gets a well done from me then no oh that is a well done and the same was for him so when we spoke to Rio he told us a story about how Keane was very good at testing you quite early on and he tells a story about whacking the ball at him in his first training session and saying Steve's laughing already how did how did he test you because you're coming in mid-season and so they've seen the manager trusting you did he choose to put you through the crucible they all did that's that's what they all did they were ruthless it was it was like going into the jungle every day i was my first five months i didn't sleep uh my sessions i planned till about two three four in the morning right whether that's a little box or whatever i planned it and tried to vision it and tried to make it perfect so over preparation give me a belief that it will be all right and then the actual courage to go Roy do this or Teddy do that or Bex do that or whatever and I think it was you just had to gain the respect didn't you of the players from day one and that was so with Roy as long as you were like him and you wanted them standards he'd have you you know he'd have you and And I was one of them that just, I thought this was always my standard.

57:26I always wanted training intense. I always wanted competitive. It was always winners and losers. And that's what they wanted. That's what they loved. They went, we'll have this. And the way we kind of delivered it, it was very, and I always, as a training session, you always get players, I wanted them in that band. If I over-arouse them, if you over-arouse, so there's that band. And my job was from the start to get them in that band so we'd have boxes, which were quite competitive but also humorous, that you could get the energy, well I talked about at the beginning, energy. I wanted energy. So we got that up.

58:18So a few bad decisions or you go in or whatever. I got them in that sweet spot. And sometimes I make a decision and they got them over aroused. That was the worst because you couldn't control them after that. So that was my sweet spot. so on every and Roy was kind of my gauge to getting in that sweet spot if that makes sense so as long as I got Roy in that sweet spot generally the team would follow and be in that as well and I remember a couple of times if you give a decision against Roy you know for Roy you were last in the race you were last it's 10 pressures for last no I'm not doing them but you can't so we'd have a face-off for that.

59:07And how important is it for you not to lose that face-off in front of your legs? Yeah, yeah. It was, but there again, I've seen boxes and the gaffer used to join in and write a zipper ball and someone would go under the gaffer's foot and everyone would go, gaffer, you're in. And he'd go, well, it's a bad ball. not his fault never his fault it's a bad ball I think it was Roy who passed it who went it's a bad ball and Roy went it's the best ball I've played all season it's you you can't control it I can't control it oh that was it and you know and that was the ferocity of the group that you could it could explode like that and that was, everybody, you know, that was, sometimes you lose it yourself.

1:00:05But they wanted that competition. They wanted that edge. They wanted that intensity. And they did it every day. If my cones weren't straight, you'd been drinking last night. One of the cones out of place. Oh, that was a bad day. Everything had to be spot on. Perfect. But I've often thought about you during that period, and it sounds just so, like, you must have been on hyper alert. You've come in, you've been given this trust. You're working till two or three in the morning to get your sessions right. What did that take out of you? Because that must have been exhausting. Oh, I was gone. On an emotional and a physical level.

1:00:48Gone. Every, you know, which is a lucky period, five months. And I was, as soon as I finished, boom, back to my hotel room, flat out. thinking of the next one. So after that five-month period, I was gone. Right. Totally. And I always remember then I was getting in the car park. We just had the big parade. I'm waiting, dying for a holiday. Please. Just about to get in the car, big shout. Where are you going, son? Holiday. He says, you're not. He says, you're in tomorrow. I went, no. He says, yeah. You're in tomorrow. Want all the staff in at the cliff, nine o 'clock. All right? So you've just done the treble.

1:01:33We've just done the treble. Unprecedented. It's his football. And we're off. And he said, no, meeting. All the staff, next morning, nine o 'clock. Big box, put your medals in there. He said, that was good. Got to do it again next year. Are we going to do it? And I went, oh, my God, wow. and then and it was that was a third big thing I learned I think that's what made him different most people myself included win the treble have a week off have a week off we'll discuss it you know and talk about it you know and no next day what we're gonna do and so we came in the next day and are we gonna do it are we going to do it again he just hated and could could smell complacency amongst the players so although setting the standards he knew when the standard was dropping so he would watch observe a lot listen a lot and and read body language well right something wrong with him steve something what wrong with him, deal with him, have a look at him.

1:02:46And he hated anybody getting complacent. And if they got too complacent, and, you know, you'd say, well, he let people go early, you know, before probably the sell-by date, but he knew that that would affect the group. And, you know, there's been many stories of that. so complacency wouldn't allow it but I've often reflected on this because I we've grown up in that generation and loving that relentlessness of Sir Alex of like you know the bus keeps moving and we and we all get onto it but there is a shadow side to it isn't there that like it like it's great when you run it but that does come at a cost not to take you like your week off you know you've gone through that intense period, surely a week off there would have been exactly what you'd have needed.

1:03:41What is the shadow side of that inability to ever take your foot off the pedal?

1:03:50Yeah, it's a great question. He never did. Didn't allow you to, yeah. And I think... I think... And, you know, one of the key, you talk about high performance, and one of the key things is to outwork people. And I had evidence of that, you know, from the very beginning, first with Jim and then, you know, just football, football all day, and overwork and work people and seeing him in at 6 o 'clock before everybody else and the last to go away and all this and thinking, I won't work. You know, this is how we're being brought up. We've got to work. So it takes its toll. And I think many times over my career I've had burnout, and really didn't realise it, but that's the intensity that you work at.

1:04:44So after them five months and doing it, there's always a yin and a yang to everything. It's a real strength, but it also can be a curse to your staff. Has the job ever affected your mental health?

1:05:01My family would say definitely. I would say yes. I would say yes. Definitely.

1:05:13But I was, I don't know, I suppose it's one of them things that I could always work. I could always work. And it's a fear thing, I think. Yeah, it could be a fear of failure. And that's what I love about being in football, is that someone said there's an exam every three days and you know what exams are like, no matter what. You'll take the caffeine, you'll do that. I've got to prepare for that exam and I've got to pass that exam. So it's like having an exam at school or university or wherever and going, I've got to pass that exam, otherwise I'm in real trouble. So what do you do? I've got to do my own work on that.

1:05:59So somehow you've got to. And Eric was the same. Eric had it. Ten Hag. You know, when I went first to 20, and I used to get in early because I was living in size. And it was 7 o 'clock or whatever. And then he'd be getting in at 5 to 7, and I'd be going. And I'm sure we'd have a little competition between us who could get in earlier. and then at night, I used to go, 6 o 'clock, I used to go, finished, Derek, have you finished? No, no, no, no, when you are, I said, no, no, no, finish, you're okay, you can go home. No, no, no, no, no, I'll wait for you, I'll wait for you. And I used to think, he wants to outwork me.

1:06:47Did you see parallels between Eric Ten Hag and Sir Alex? All managers like that. Yeah. All of them, you know, Jim was the same. Sven was the same. You were the same. I was exactly the same. So, parallels, I thought, this is the norm. This is what you have to do. And I used to think it was a competition between us to do that. In Jamaica, they couldn't believe it. It was up at half past five, going through things. And yeah, you're tired, but you have to do it because it's an exam. And if you get beat on Tuesday, you're in real trouble. So it was that fear of failing. I think this is such an interesting conversation because there is no manager that has managed England, taken an underdog to a European final and won a trophy, been part of the backroom staff of arguably the greatest era under the greatest manager of English football, gone abroad and won a trophy in a foreign country, speaking a foreign language, managed another national team as well, and then sits here and is as engaged and as excited and as effervescent as ever about the game.

1:07:55But I think one thing that separates you again from so many other people is that you had that experience of United under Sir Alex and then went back in under error, as you just mentioned, which is such an interesting parallel. So when you went back in, what was different about Manchester United all those years later? It's just different. It's just different. And, you know, I was very lucky. I went into Manchester United when Sir Alex was, you know, being the top, be his knees, won everything. Not won everything, but he'd got over that hurdle of initial two, three, four years even, where he was all about character and recruitment of character.

1:08:40And if they were bad characters, he went out drinking or whatever, and he didn't mind. I think his key thing was you must perform in training and you must perform in the game. That's it. Yeah? Anything that affects that, you stop doing it. Right? All right? So if you... You could go out for a drink, which many of them did. You could be bad boys or whatever. But if you give it in training and you give it in the game, I'm having you. I'm having you. You're doomed for me. you're in our team so I think I was lucky in that respect to do that and I think how would you replace that I always remember who wants to who's going to be the next man to follow Sir Alex what a nightmare you know what do you do and then everyone else has followed on and what's happened is and I've had it myself when I went to Middlesbrough I was very fortunate I had five years and the first three The first two especially were really tough, really hard.

1:09:50And Steve Gibson could have sacked me three or four times. Easy. After four games, no points, nothing. One or two things, you know, happened. I'm not thinking. No, we're stuck at it. And the third year was a breakthrough. And that's when we got recruitment. And it took us three years to get recruitment right in a club. and with Sir Alex it was the same at the beginning I think three or four years before he won anything recruitment get out the bad ones bring in the good and I had to get rid of the middles but so many bad and characters coming in George Boateng you know Gareth Southgate he got people like that real good characters so that's what I learned it was all about recruitment it's all about people it's all about players and the right characters and you get them in the dressing room so it took me three years so Eric came in and Eric had the same you know and we talked about it a lot because everyone keeps saying well what's Manchester United what's this what's that what's the other and Eric came in right standards are set standards are set you know we train we're in at nine breakfast and we train at ten pre-activation in the gym alright And I think after a couple of weeks, some of the players went, can we change the training time?

1:11:24And I went, why do you want to change the training time? Well, before it used to be 11 o 'clock. And so we used to get up and we used to take the kids to school. And because we were in breakfast at nine o 'clock, we can't take the kids to school. and we'd like to do that. There he went. No. Nine o 'clock. Boom. Ten. First game against Brentford. We lost. They ran so much. We ran that much. There was 13 kilometres difference. He says, they're going to run that this morning. To be fair, I went, don't be silly. You can't do that. He said, fair enough. He said, they'll run after me until I tell them to stop.

1:12:11Fair enough. and he had battles with Ronaldo and he had battles with Rashford. He was late for one meeting. Boom. Closed the door. It was only a minute, 30 seconds. Closed the door. Put the team up. He was out of it. You know. Sancho, I think, he let go. So he had... Was it too much? Too rigid? Too strict in the modern game? No, I think, no, I think, no, no. I think what the Gav had, Sir Alex, was he had that relationship. He built that kind of first, and he had that relationship to and explain why. So that was first. And I think that, rightly or wrongly, at the beginning, which is absolutely right, it's difficult to have that discipline, which I want, and standards, which you wanted, exactly the same.

1:13:25And I went, because I worked with him and I knew him, I went, absolutely right, but you're going to have to fight some battles, just like Sir Alex had to fight battles and get rid of people. You've got to fight battles and you've got to get rid of people. But Sir Alex did it in an era where you might get 40 games. Eric was trying to do it in an era where you get four games. You get judged so much more quickly. There isn't the time to get to know these players. And that's why it's different. Yeah. Different and no different. It's no different. He's trying to establish Manchester United way, which we all know, get the discipline right, because it wasn't.

1:14:01And the players had had many managers before. And, you know, they're going, oh, here's another one. They were big name players though to go into battle with, weren't they? To go into battle with Ronaldo is a big decision. Massive decision, massive. But, you know, Nereke had his principles and he went, you know, you've got to do this, you've got to do that, you've got to do that, you've got to do that. All right? And I think, you know, 11 players attack, 11 players defend. Right. And you must run or you don't play. All right. we can't have 10 defending and one not we've got to have you know so you've got to do that you've got to do that you've got to do that and that was the battle with him and Ronnie that whether he could or couldn't do it or didn't want to do it or whatever wasn't really the issue it was the mindset that you have to you know you've got to battle with this one you've got to battle with that one you've got to battle with him you've got to battle and Sir Alex would have had it exactly the same and you're absolutely right You're not given time.

1:15:07But we, you know, he built that, recovered. I think, that's like being Middlesbrough. I'm thinking, whoa, beat Liverpool 3-1, didn't we? Yep. And I went, whoa, that's it, you know? And so we had spells of it and we won a Carabao Cup and we qualified in the Champions League in that first season. Second season was hard because I found that at Middlesbrough also. The first season is tough. The second season is worse. You think it'll get better because you have another window to recruit, but it doesn't get better. And he had that second season, and there was ups and downs and ups and downs, but he fought like mad.

1:15:51The staff were all in there. Good players, good players. Casimiro's good players. Bruno, good players, you know, and other people, good players. He just had to turn it around and change the preparation. So we overprepared. So when I first went to the United, oh, my God, first day, I finished the session. And I went, come on, then, let's go. And they're all hanging around going, we don't go now. We don't finish now. He says, we do extra, Steve. Oh, fine. Go on, then. so Beckham went on the right Giggs went on the left and full backs went with him and bump bump cross everyone's in the middle finishing another second finish and everything like that and I went oh wow this is what they do right and Cantona the story of him he set the and I went and there's a sign of a good club wherever I've been if you finish a training session and they do extra I go great and at Manchester United when we did it initially they weren't doing extra they weren't staying they were just going in under Tan Hog yeah and I'm going this is what they're used to just finishing the session and going in and I'm like come on let's do a bit of extra finishing and Bruno would be there you know and Bruno would practice all day doing it and eventually people would follow and we'd encourage it and Benny McCarthy and we'd have them going a bit but not as much as it used to be it's always that extra, extra, extra.

1:17:34So in time, it would have turned around. And we were, you know, United, we were walking home after Coventry, you know, the Coventry game. We were 3-0 up in the semi-final. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the FA Cup. And somehow, by a 2-0, VAR saved us. I said, Eric, don't ever criticise VAR again. I said, if they'd have got that penalty and scored, come back from 3-0 and 4-3, we'd have been walking home. Yeah. And I'd have said we deserve to walk home. All right? So I did that. And all of a sudden, I see it so often now. I'm seeing it with Liam. And everyone says, you know, and we had it at that time.

1:18:23Oh, Eric's lost the dressing room. Eric's lost the dressing room. but you know in that in that week after I think it was Crystal Palace that was the 4-0 game 4-0 game were we bad oh were we bad yeah and I went we should be walking home as well from here and I went but in a week the players had kind of turned it around before the cup final before the cup final and who led from those players you know what it was we used to have activation in the gym and some of the players I was messed about with the ball and played two-touch. Diogo Dalot. Yeah. Always the same. Enthusiastic. Always positive. Always.

1:19:06Come on, two-touch. Come on, two-touch. First day, four or five. Second day, five or six. Second, third day. By the end of, say, one week, two weeks, everyone was in. And he used to stand at the balcony and look down and go, wow the players are doing it you know the players are actually going take on the message we will follow and we will do it together and they were having fun and laughing smiling training was great they were all in for it Eric and there was staff you know are we going to win this game I think it started with Arsenal we lost but we tried something different suited the players and we did that and then we went to Wembley and I said after the Arsenal game and watching them on training and watching them before and enjoying it and focused I went we'll win the cup we'll win it how far out was this and like the week before you knew you two weeks right two weeks so after Arsenal I think we played the next and then the next I watched us brighten and we were like, oh, and easy.

1:20:25I went, oh, I said, I tell you something, it's in the stars because of what happened at the Cup. We're going to win the Cup. I'm telling you, we're going to win the Cup. And prepared so well that Eric had a couple of videos. Magnificent. What were the videos? Just one was Every Given Sunday, I think. Oh, yeah. Mitchell did that one. And then another was we had a security girl. and she'd been in the forces. And a big screen came up before we were going to the fire, a big screen and one chair, and the chair was great. And I went, and we were all sat in the meeting room, and he never told anyone.

1:21:11And we all went, somebody's going to sit in that chair. All the players were in the staff, and we're all trying to guess who's going to sit in the chair. someone's going to deliver a speech from that chair. Is it going to be Sir Alex? Who is it going to be? Who walks in? This security girl. And she sits down. And she starts talking about her military days and what it's like to be in the military together in a war zone in Afghanistan. Powerful. And clips of things. and she was so good. And honestly, I want a dry eye. And we all got up and went, and I went, oh my God, we're not just going to win the cup, we're going to kill them.

1:22:02It was, honestly, I went, no doubt. And then the game started and Man City, someone headed it back over Keeper's head and Garnaccio's, and I'm going, we're definitely going to win it now because that never happens normally. You know what I mean? Talking about the rub of the green momentum. But can I ask you, Steve, because I was at that cup final and when Casemiro got dropped, I think most people were thinking, what happens with his career now? And seeing the renaissance, I'm interested in, how do you deliver bad news to an icon like that and how did he respond to it? Wow, that was... I honestly don't know how Casemiro dealt with it.

1:22:48How he did. Yeah. with such professionalism and such dignity. And I think the key thing was that we came back the next year. We didn't expect to, but yeah, we came back the next year and Casemiro was one of the first ones in with a small group. And I was going, wow, this is going to be interesting because he's still here. And I thought that would be the end. And he's still here. Was the best trainer. Was the best trainer. I couldn't believe it, I went. From day one, such professionalism and the best trainer, no matter what. And I went, what happened to him last season? The disappointment that he must have had, not to be a part of it, not even in the squad.

1:23:42And when was he told? I think he knew well before.

1:23:51So I think he knew well in advance that he was out of favour, but he didn't know he wouldn't be in the squad. And I think when the squad was named, I think the day before, and he still was at the game and he was still in the dressing room and he still came back. He was the best trainer. And that's why he's having the impact he's having. Yeah. That, I went, oh, my God. that is what you call high performance, you know, from him. And he's doing it week in, week out now. Love him. Great lad. Great personality. Was he? Great. Ah, the best. He was fighting training. He'd be the same every day. Because that game against Crystal Palace, the 4-0 that you referenced, and that's one where the pundits famously said, leave football before the football leads you.

1:24:44and he was being written off as a top-level footballer. What were you seeing that gave you this view that this guy's a class act? Just the way he acted, just the way it was. We spoke often and he used to say, he said, Eric's the best coach I've worked for. He says, in detail, in tactics, knowledge of the game. He's the best. Ancelotti is the best manager he's worked for in terms of personality, man management, look after the players. So he said that he had utmost respect for Eric. But it was just every day he was the same. And he would train every day, he would fight every day, plus he would do extra.

1:25:40you know and I went wow that is professionalism that yeah real admiration for him can I ask what your role was in those moments of conflict whether it was like the Ronaldo moment or Marcus not able to join the meeting and being dropped from the team for being late what would you do in those situations were you like the peacemaker were you taking Eric's side were you trying to kind of explain to all parties what was going on and find solutions for people it's difficult because this is always something which I say to well I said to Eric I said to everybody is he doing what you want him to do is he doing what you want him to do you know if he isn't can he do it if he can do it why is he not doing it if he can't do it get rid of him if he won't do it can you persuade him to do it that's it but Ronaldo could right I mean, he could run back and defend.

1:26:39He didn't want to. But why? He's lauded as the professional of professionals. You know, my son, who's 10 years old and loves football, if I say who's the greatest pro of all time, he says Cristiano Ronaldo. Yeah, in terms of preparation, the way he was, the way his charisma is just... And I loved the chats with him. He was honestly different. But he just had a set way of playing. And every team, speak to Roberto Martinez now, we adapt to Ronnie. Eric wouldn't adapt. If he would have done, he felt he couldn't because that was showing a bit of weakness and that's how Eric was. I've seen the same traits with the gaffer, exactly the same.

1:27:32So he couldn't. so he didn't want he didn't want to you know which is understandable because he is as you rightly say he wins your football matches he can win your football matches but they had such a clash that you know nobody you know Ronnie just get on with it you know Ronnie you've got to do that do that do that and then you've got to return there and you've got to do that and then you'll play he wants you to run okay, a little more than you probably want to, but fair enough, you know. And he always used to point at the, Sir Alex had a thing on the wall, you know, top talent must work hard to be a top talent, you know.

1:28:18And he always, so I used to go, yeah, but you're not, and he used to go, right? And he used to go, okay then, okay. So it was always going to be a clash, but, you know, everybody's adapted and they adapted you know the previous year when he was there they adapted and you know you can get that if he's delivering if he's not delivering the team won't accept it so it's just a principle that Eric had and I quite agree with it and what was the reaction in the dressing room when he left when Ronaldo left like there wasn't there wasn't a great deal No, no, it wasn't. No. I remember that. And I thought, whoa, like that.

1:29:09And it'd be interesting. Players just got away. And the players in general, you know, they're not much different than they are now. And you see them now compared to that. They've been, you know, Bad Nisselrode was great. Was great. And he just went, I really liked Rude I thought he was fantastic great with the players so Rude just came in like Michael's just come in and Rude just had his own ideas and went 4-3-3 and Bruno you're there and Casemiro are there and Kobe are there it's a good three and he got three results didn't he the team played well and I thought I thought I personally would have given it to Ruud till the end of the season because he'd done what needed to be done with the team, you know, but they do what they do.

1:30:10You made that comment about you love your chats with Cristiano Ronaldo. And I think over the years, we often look at him. I'm interested in, like, can you give us an insight into how he thinks that maybe it is a little bit different than the rest of us mere mortals? there you have it, mere mortals which is what we were and rightly so you know, and he became even mere, mere mortals when you spoke to him he just walked in a room and you went Ron is here you know, and he was professional he was polite, he knew what he wanted you know, he knew what he needed to eat, he knew what he needed to work on, he knew what he needed to do to play, yeah?

1:31:02Eric wanted more or different, but he, this is me, this is me, and if you treat me and you tell me to do it, I believe, and he believed he was still the best in the world. Which is great. Which is absolutely great. But also maybe sometimes this is what we want, this is what you want, and it's okay to not do it together. You go and do your thing and he's gone to Saudi and it's been amazing for him. And Man United have moved on and it looks good for them. It's like sometimes a parting of the ways is maybe the best thing. Of course, and it was, totally. And it relaxed Eric, it relaxed the group, it relaxed the whole feeling in the ground.

1:31:44and it was the best for both for it to happen, as it did. And I think, you know, they carried on from that. But is there any insights or anything he ever said that you thought, ah, right, that's a different view that I've not seen from other footballers? No, he, and rightly so, he was the best, you know. And like you said, I'm better than Messi, you know. Right. So he, and that's what I'm talking, when the top, top ones only won 2%, and you've had them on the programme, you know. You know, they're like, you know, they just believe they're the best, you know. You know, Eric Ten Hag was the guy that spotted Kobe Maynou and brought him through, the guy that made some really difficult decisions about players that maybe their time was up at United.

1:32:32He won you that trophy, he beat City in the FA Cup final. You've just told us that he hadn't lost the dressing room, the players were still fighting for him at the end. And I just wonder whether there was still more for out and hog to do at Manchester United. Yeah. And look, and this is my probably message that I say to all these managers I see going out, you know, and thinking, well, he's lost the dressing room. Of course you do. Of course you do now and again. You know, Middlesbrough, three or four times. You know, my last year, my fifth year, totally, totally lost them. and somehow, I can't remember what I did, we were on camp and changed a little bit and, you know, because we had Jimmy Floyd-Assad and we had Viduka, we had Yakubu, we had big players and I was kind of upsetting them, you know, and it was my fault, you know.

1:33:28They were what they were, but, you know, I was playing one and dropping the other and doing this and that and that. I just went, oh, I can't, you know, I've got to play two of them. So I played 4-4-2 with two of them and solved the situation. And they were like a revelation. And I went, oh, and then everything, you know, towards the end, then we got to a European Cup final. And yes, you do have moments where you lose it. And it may be not the manager's fault. It may be that no matter what you've got in that dressing room, the balance is not right. And it's got to be right. It's got to be right.

1:34:09It's baking a cake. If you put a bad ingredient in it, the cake flops. And you can have that. And I've had that. I've had that a lot. And somehow, how do you turn it around? You need to get rid of him and him. Sometimes it takes two or three windows, but you know that eventually they're going to be all right. And eventually the players, like they did at Man U, eventually everyone pulls together. because we can win a cup here, you know, we can win something here, which is what Manchester United is about. But that's in general what I see always, that I always lost the dressing room, get rid of the manager.

1:34:47You know, and the manager comes in, same problems. Yes. But, you know, you can solve it. I just don't know how you managers do it. I mean, I look at this season, for example, you know, Thomas Frank is a mega star at Brentford. Unbelievable. The worst manager in the world when he goes to Tottenham. Leroy Rosinia did a great job at Strasbourg. was pilloried and criticised unnecessarily at Chelsea. And we spoke to a coach who was involved at Tottenham and he said to us it was an alignment problem. And I think fans and the media, they just don't see what they can't see. And we can't see if there's a lack of alignment at a football club.

1:35:25And there has to be, I think, a way of managers explaining better what is going on so that we can understand why Thomas Frank struggled at Spurs or why Liam struggled at Chelsea or why Eric struggled at United. I don't know how we do it, but I feel like there's a knowledge gap missing here that would be great for the fans and great for managers and great for the game. Does that make sense? You've just said the word alignment. The only time I've had success is when everything's been aligned from the top to the bottom. We're all sitting on the same page. And that's what's going wrong. It's misalignment.

1:36:01and you're absolutely right. It's like the incident with the boy Fernandes, was it, from Chelsea who he left out. So Liam takes the responsibility of that, where it should be a club. The club agree with this. So chairman, owner, you agree with this. Yeah, I agree with it. Sport director all the way down and everyone's aligned. But there's too much of the manager who wants to say a lot but can't say a lot who has to deal with it. Whereas we employ, you know, now sport directors, technical directors, whatever, other people above to also be involved in them decisions. So I think the clubs need to...

1:36:55Alignment is the key thing you've got to have. When you don't have it, you can't win, especially as a head coach, manager or whatever. So maybe in that instance that the club comes out and we all agree on this. We all agree on this, right? It's clear to the fans then that the whole club's behind it. Whereas Liam, I'm doing this and is it the club? So I think once the club... But the club know that if they let the manager take the pressure... Of course. The owner is free of the scrutiny, the sporting director is free of the scrutiny. The manager is such an easy fall guy in the game. Like you said, they're part of the circus.

1:37:42Yeah, that's right. That's their position. So Steve, did you feel... Because you were there when Ineos then comes in to Manchester United. Did you feel that there was a misalignment then while they were trying to find their place. Could you sense that? No, no. I sensed an organisation coming in who knew damn well what Top Sport was all about and had Top Sport people within that group. And I know Dave very well, Dave Brailsford very well. And chatting with them, I went, you know, eventually this will work. Eventually this will work. will work instantly, but eventually it will work because there's so much knowledge there.

1:38:29There's so much resource there that given time, and it will be given time, it will work. And you're going to make mistakes along the way because Manchester United is unique. It's different. The noise is different from the outside. And they're learning. And everything's about people. And if you've got the right people, generally, you're okay. so yeah and it will it will work out I'm absolutely positive you know and what was your sort of experiences of Jim Ratcliffe um I just used to come round say hello you know inspect the place and um it was once I think he he went down to one of the dressing rooms and boots were laying and and this was his detail to is attention to detail in terms of, well, these dressing rooms are not tidy enough.

1:39:30You know, this isn't the standard that I want. And I quite like that. I went, I like that. You know, people going, someone's going to get blamed for that. You know, someone's going to... I just pointed out that it wants a certain standard. And I think that's what they bring. all the sports teams which they've got you know all have that and are all successful so eventually he won't stop until Manchester United are exactly that. And you think they'll get back there? I do definitely what's the plan for Manchester United going forward all Michael has to do is demonstrate going forward I'm the man to take Manchester United going forward and this is what I would do.

1:40:17This is who I would buy. This is who I would sell. This is who I would let go. This is the... He's already demonstrated the culture, the principles of play, what he would do with the backroom staff. So he's already demonstrated on the field that at the moment he can do that. He's demonstrated that a little bit at Middlesbrough, what he did. He needs to demonstrate now at Manchester United in terms of can he take them forward, aligned with everybody from top to bottom. And that will only be known when that alignment get together and discuss it. That makes sense. Makes perfect sense. I'm so glad that on those trips from where you were living to Manchester United, you started listening to high performance.

1:41:01Otherwise, you wouldn't be sitting in the chair now. And that has been one of the most fascinating conversations about leadership, about dealing with pressure, about dealing with challenges and letdowns, but also enjoying success and seeing your true brilliance in the flesh and delivering the most remarkable career that you've had. And we see you having this conversation now and Dick Abacar's back in management and Roy Hodgson's back in management and Neil Warnock's back in management and you're a lot younger than all of them. You're the same age as Jose Mourinho, right? Your story's not over in football, is it?

1:41:36Oh, my uncle's better now. I'm feeling better. and yeah don't know what's ahead and this is football this is why you love it and you just it's just what would you love though what would light your fire just to be involved in I'm a learner I'm a worker and I'm a teacher that's basically what I am so any job that involves me with them three things gives me energy gives me a purpose to get up in the morning. So at the moment, I'm fulfilling that with going around, talking, coaching coaches, doing talks and things like that. But I like to be around people. I like to be around a team. I like that, the format that you get.

1:42:30Because I sponge, I'm like a sponge. I want to know about it was great then. It was great, Jamaica, learning about international football. over in the Caribbean, Central America, North America. It's totally different. Wow. So I'm all for experience as well. So it's whatever experience next because energy is key and that gives me energy if I can teach, if I can work at something, if I can learn and be a sponge and what's happening in what's... A lot of... My always questions I ask are, what's it going to be like in five years? So you must have said four years ago when you started this, I wonder what it's going to be like in five years.

1:43:19You know? And I'm like, I wonder what football's going to be like in five years. But I also think, what was football like five years ago, ten years ago? What is the same five, ten years ago? What's the same today? And we must not forget that instead of looking too far ahead. So it's always my question is, what are the principles? And I always go back even to 25 years ago with United. Them principles are exactly the same. Preparation, yeah. Make them believe, yeah. Make them believe. And then you've got to give them the courage and the balls to go out there and play. Many people say, what makes Ferguson's fame?

1:44:05what makes these top managers, what, you know, these foreigners that come over, what makes them? I said, they've just got bigger balls. They've just got big courage. They make big decisions and they stick with them and they just go forward, you know, and that's, if I can leave you on that rather poor note. Perfect note, accurate note. Are you happy for a few quick fire questions before we let you go? So Steve, it's been brilliant, this, doesn't he? Absolutely. The three non-negotiable behaviours. Mad. You must be on time. Yeah. You must be on time. You must outwork the other person. You must outwork.

1:44:53Daley Thompson, I just remember when I started coaching, Daley Thompson used to say, I'm training on Christmas Day. Why? because I know my opponents won't be working on Christmas Day and I'll have one up and that stuck with me. So on Christmas Day, every Christmas Day, I just get my books out and do a little bit of prep. I'll try and outwork people. So work, hard work basically. Third thing is enjoy it. Yes. I love humour. Humour gives you energy. You know, I always say, well, what are the things that give you energy? Well, music gives you energy. I know that from Jamaica. That's all we did, play music, and that really energised the group.

1:45:45Anger, and that's useful in its place to create energy like that, but humour also because you get some competition with banter, with humour, that really gets you in that sweet spot. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why? We had Dave Brailsford in at Derby for a chat and his first line was, gentleman, life's hard. He said it a little bit more than that, but he said life's hard. He said, we read books, fairy tale books with happy endings. Life is not like that. He said, so expect along the way that it's hard. I thought, oh my God, you're so right. And I say that to everyone.

1:46:39He said, don't expect. You want to be successful? Really successful? It's really hard. What is your biggest strength? I think my resilience. Yeah. I think, you know, my energy, my enthusiasm. I think your energy. And I love being around football people or people who can teach me things. You know, whether that's business, you know, I do a lot of that as well, listen to that. Anything that can teach me psychology and give me a little edge. So, yeah, my energy, my resilience because I've had to, you know, I'll just, what's next? Which biggest weakness? The list is too long. The list is too long. I try and mask it with whatever, but the list is too long.

1:47:36I'll over-prepare, expectation, disappointment. I think the key is what I try to do, and I say to everyone, everyone should do therapy by the way purely because not so much therapy but everyone should know themselves and that's I found that the key I worked with Bill for 30 years and he really told me about myself and I go to him now and I say well what about me and I say well he says you weren't a top footballer so really you just don't have that real belief of a top footballer and I went that's a good point that you know what I mean so it's important that you know and it's important that you know your triggers you know used to tell me in games trigger go down the tunnel count to ten and then come back and people used to say where are you going where are you going I said I need to go down that tunnel I need to kick a door or do something and then come back and compose so it's important I think it's important you need a mentor.

1:48:47Yeah. You definitely need a mentor or good people around you, which we'll probably come to. And your golden rule for living a high-performance life? It's the same as what I say about the three things which I treasure the most. Respect, which has been on time. Hard work. and you've got to enjoy it. You've got to have fun while doing it. You know, the exam is Saturday. That's the crucial bit. But during that time, you've got to relax a bit and enjoy it. Yeah. Steve, that goes right in straight away. It's one of the best episodes we've recorded this podcast after over 400 episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:49:36Easily. Easily. Honestly, it was brilliant. So interesting. I wouldn't say that's his Steve-Anson you lived an amazing life now just so you know it's growing that's all no no I'm kidding I'm already kidding it was honestly a masterclass thank you thank you so much Damien Jake I am not joking when I would immediately put that conversation in the top drawer of High Performance Podcast it goes in the god tier of High Performance Podcast episodes because it was an insight into an era at Manchester United that I still think people don't fully understand under Sir Alex but I feel I understand it more than ever before it was an insight into the modern world of the football manager where as we spoke about towards the end there's a lack of alignment that no one sees and everyone judges it was an insight into how Steve in his 60s has still has the like he's like a puppy like puppy like enthusiasm for culture for football for winning for learning that's all incredible but I think the thing that stood out to me most of all is that he's a guy who has seen and experienced so much yet has a real warmth like a warmth that we get very rarely from guests that sit in this chair like incredible generosity we perhaps should tell the audience that when Steve left he realised he was an hour late for dinner with his wife which I know goes against one of his principles of timekeeping is important but it's because he was being so generous to us with his time and he wanted to offer so much of himself, of his knowledge and of his experience.

1:51:16What did you think? I think what you've just described there, that last quality of his enthusiasm, his warmth, his passion, his curiosity, is his greatest achievement because I think to have had a career in possibly one of the most brutal industries, you know, like Harsenwenger described it like living on a volcano. You never know when it's going to erupt and you might get caught up in it. So I've lived a life in an industry that's so turbulent and chaotic and to still retain that boyish enthusiasm for a love of the game and a real pleasure to witness it. Imagine being in a dressing room with somebody like that that loves being out there, that loves developing, that loves being the teacher.

1:51:59I think if you can live a life like that and get to Steve's age and still possess that passion, you've genuinely found what you should be doing. Isn't it also a great reminder not to write people off that people in their 60s are no different to people in their 20s? They've just got 40 years' worth of experience to add. Do you know what I mean? Well, you imagine, if you're a young manager now taking a job and we know the trend is often you want to bring in young, fresh, vibrant ideas. If I was a young manager, the first phone call I'd be making and be to Steve and say, can you come in? I want you to mentor me.

1:52:35I want you to be another pair of Isonares. But I think if he got a job, he'd bring young, fresh, new, vibrant ideas. But with the experience of, oh, Sir Alex did this and Eric did this and in England when I got that job, I did this. I think he still has all of that stuff that we think a young person has with the experience. Yeah, absolutely. But that's a point that I think you're right. We label people and then we spend the rest of our lives sort of reinforcing that label rather than rethinking our own preconceptions or our own prejudices and you're right he is somebody that could go and do that job really effectively but he's got a massive role to play in this next generation of developing coaches because he's got so much knowledge and wisdom and experience that he's so eager to share he's a teacher at heart what a great conversation thank you mate yeah thank you that was brilliant it was indeed and And if you enjoyed that conversation with Steve, you can, of course, listen to so many football managers and football people on High Performance.

1:53:33But more than that, I would love you just to share this conversation with just one person, one person that you think, it doesn't matter what role they're in, that they could learn something from his leadership skills. I'd love you to do that. Please make sure you hit subscribe. Don't forget, you can watch as well as listen on Apple Podcasts. You can check us out on YouTube. But please keep enjoying High Performance wherever you get your podcasts. And Damian and I will see you very soon.

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