Stop Caring What Everyone Thinks

0:00Unlock it early on the High Performance app. Gareth Southgate, England's former manager, who opens up about life leading his country. Hey, welcome back to another episode of High Performance. Today's episode is for you. If you've ever said, what if people don't like it? What if I sound stupid? What if I fail? And everybody laughs. Welcome to the conversation that can stop you caring what everybody else thinks and just to be really clear here Damien we're not telling people not to care about anything but we are saying that there is a school of thought that caring too much about the views and the opinions of other people does us no service at all and I think it is a real modern issue that we're all struggling with Yeah definitely, I remember reading in a book years ago something called the 1840-60 test it said at 18 you don't do anything because you're worried what everyone thinks about you at 40 you go, you know what I don't care yeah, what, no, and thinks about me, I'm going to do it anyway.

1:00And then at 60, you get to an age where you go, nobody was actually thinking about me at all. They were thinking about their own story. Now, having just turned 50, I'm sort of looking forward to getting to that place of thinking, of realising that nobody's thinking about you anyway. But you're right. I think so often we hear the idea of sociophobia, the fear of being ridiculed by other people, inhibits us, stops us, or prevents us from going after what we really want. And I think let's go and delve into the archive of some of our incredible guests to work out. How do we work out how to stop caring about what some people think, but actually switch on to what the important people think?

1:41And please don't think that, as I say, I think this is a modern disease. It has been around forever. It was Seneca that said, we suffer more in imagination than reality. And Lao Tzu said, if you care about what other people think, you will always be their prisoner. And I think that's one of the important things to point out here is I don't believe we see the true cost of caring what other people think because it's so normalised and it's so common that we just end up living a life kind of within ourselves. You know the study where they sent people into classrooms and they said to a bunch of three-year-olds, if you can sing, put your hands up.

2:11And how many hands were raised in the air? Every kid. Ten years later, they're all teenagers. Someone walks in the same room and says, put your hands in the air if you can sing. And at a class of 30 kids, a few hands go in the air. There's sociophobia in action for you. They've added on the words well. So that person says, put your hand on the air if you can sing. And we assume well. Well, hey, we can all sing, right? But we assume unless we do it to a decent standard, it's not worthy. There's no value to it. And I think this gets worse because social media now is full of people constantly sharing their perfection and we're comparing our reality to their highlight reels.

2:47So let's dive straight into a clip from a previous guest on High Performance. We've got some good ones coming up for you, actually, including a Formula One world champion, one of the greatest ever CrossFit competitors, one of the world's most popular authors, and we're going to be hypnotized by Paul McKenna at the end of the episode. But we want to start with someone who you are a huge fan of, right? Yeah, I love Adam Grant's work. In fact, Gareth Southgate, interestingly, in his new book, quotes Adam Grant from his, I think again, is an organizational psychologist from Walton University who we were lucky enough to sit down and talk to.

3:21And there's a moment in the interview where we went a little bit off script, where you were speaking to him about a difficult time in your life where you were copping some abuse on social media. And he sort of helped you navigate through it. Let's listen to it, and then I'll be interested in your reflections of it today. So I find myself thinking a lot, why do I care about the opinions of complete strangers? why why am i trying to prove myself to people who are not necessarily knowledgeable about the work that i do are we not just hardwired to care you could tell a very convincing evolutionary story about how social exclusion was a threat to survival and we evolved what psychologists call a sociometer which is kind of a self-esteem monitor for for what our image is and whether other people accept us and value us or whether they're going to expel us from the tribe and if you didn't pay attention to that, you probably died and failed to pass on your genes, right?

4:20So sure. I think we're wired to care, but there's no reason why we have to care equally about everyone, right? There's no reason why you have to let that evolutionary circuitry, you know, sort of hijack your rational thought. And so I think going in, I think every time you're calling a game, right? The first thing I would want to know is who are the people whose assessment of, of your skill really matter to you? And I would go to those people first, right? Before you look at what the random audience has to say, knowing that they're always going to be critics and they're always going to be angry fans or rivals, right?

4:58I'd want to know, well, whose judgment do you really trust and value? And can you seek their feedback first? And once you do that, you're probably going to feel a little bit more secure. You're going to know what kind of criticism is valid and what is probably a little bit less credible. And then maybe you can filter a little bit better. It's very interesting hearing that back actually. I'm trying to remember, do you know Will when we actually recorded that episode? Because it was over, I remember it was over Zoom. Yeah, yeah. I don't know whether that was because it was COVID or just because we couldn't get together.

5:30You were in your last year at TNT. Yeah, you were, yeah. Was that? Or BT as it was then. BT, so it'd be. I can just tell you exactly. We've got Will, the producer with us in the studio helping us put these shows together. Go on then, son. It went out on 12th December 2022. December 2022. So three years ago, we had a conversation with Adam Grant. And I definitely was struggling at that time. And for him to kind of make me realize that you should care what people think. You should take criticism. Feedback is a gift. You should accept other people giving you knowledge and thought. But you also have to really think carefully about what's the intention behind it.

6:06Or how much does that person know about the things that you're going through to be able to give you a valid feedback and criticism. So all those people going like, Jake Humphrey's a bellend, or he's a smug twat, or whatever it was that they were saying, they definitely hurt at the time. But now, after that conversation with Adam, I absolutely was able to look at it and say, well, they're obviously not saying that for any reason other than to be plain horrible, or nasty, or bullying. Therefore, their intention tells me all I need to know about how much attention I need to pay. And I love it. And I remember I used to say to myself, their intention determines my attention.

6:44And that was a phrase that helped me in that period. So what's that lovely story you told about a message you received from somebody that did actually matter? Oh, yeah. Do you remember, we actually spoke about this in the episode with Adam Grant. And by the way, if you want to listen to the full conversation, you can find the link to Adam and all the other guests we mentioned in the notes to this show. Yeah, I got a letter from Sue Barker. And for those that don't know Sue Barker, like the legend, this legend of sports broadcasters, hosted Wimbledon for years, hosted Sports Personality of the Year with me for a long time.

7:16And I just got, it was an email, actually an email out of the blue from her saying, I just think you're doing an amazing job. You've now arrived at the level of Gary Lineker as a sports broadcaster. And that was actually at a time where she didn't know. Every time I went on the telly, I felt like I was getting like dog's abuse. And that made all the difference because of course she is someone that knows. She's someone that's walked in those shoes. She's someone that's put the earpiece on. She's someone that's rode the gauntlet of live television. Yeah. And it was impactful. But it's still hard, though, because you get one message like that and you know it's true.

7:49But when you get hundreds of messages, even if you don't believe they're true, they definitely get through the armour at some point. And that is something I don't miss about doing that job, was the sort of like the unwarranted, unnecessary, not very helpful criticism. But I now see people that are doing the job I used to do getting it and I feel for them, you know? Yeah, yeah. I remember once there was a game where Arsenal played Brighton and it was in lockdown and I think the Arsenal goalkeeper got stretched off and you'd had to comment on it on your job and I remember you showing me just the vileness of the abuse that came because you'd made a comment about it and I remember asking you saying how do you deal with that because to me it was frightening and I remember you saying it's like somebody shouting in an empty room these are people that I've got nobody else around them that wants to listen to their opinion.

8:38So they're just shouting in an empty room and I don't have to listen to that. It's totally true. But I love your idea of their intention determines your attention. I think that's a lesson that any of us can apply when we think about it. Not what are they saying to me, but why are they saying it? Why are they saying it? What's your agenda? They're purely trying to make me upset or just be horrible. And actually, sometimes what I would notice is you'd go on their social handle and you'd just see they're angry about everything. And that, in some ways, is just really sad, right? They're just angry about the rest of the world.

9:07But that was really helpful for me. And I hope for people listening to this, I hope they don't have that level of sort of criticism or scrutiny. But I certainly think that those thoughts that Adam shared with us, I think are valuable for anyone. And I hope they're helpful for people that are listening to this. But I think I'd like to take us on to Fernando Alonso, the double Formula One world champion who we've also had on high performance. Do you remember when we said to him, what are you thinking when the lights go out at the start of a Grand Prix? and he goes, robot. I was like, that is one of the greatest answers of what high performance.

9:41I'll tell you why I love that though. Because do you remember when we found out afterwards that he told his mate before he came in the room that he was going to give us just one word answers and see how long the interview could last for us. So his robot answer is attentive. And if you listen to the full episode, at times he does give us two word answers as well, which was a highlight for us. But anyway, here's Fernando Alonso talking to us about how he deals with stress and pressure in one of the most high-profile jobs that you can imagine in the world of sport. And I remember the first ever race in Formula One, my debut in 2001 with Minardi, that I called my father on Sunday morning of the race.

10:25And I said, okay, it's two hours to the race. So yeah, let's see how it goes. We start with the soft tires and then we will stop in lap 15 for the refueling because back then it was the refueling in Formula 1. And he said, okay, I don't care. Whatever the strategies and the team thinks is the best, for sure is the best, try to enjoy because maybe it's your last race. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, we never know. This is your first race. Maybe you are not delivering or you are not quick enough or the team is not happy with you at the end of the race or whatever. and then you will always be able to say that you race one Formula One Grand Prix.

11:05You know, you are a Grand Prix driver. And so that's the kind of approach that my family has that sometimes for me is very valuable and very helpful when I get the stress. And for them, everything is just a gift. It's just an extra. Do you know what I love about that quote from Fernando Alonso there is that it just, it makes it clear to him from someone outside his own brain that this is what you always wanted. And something I put on social media the other day is this, Damien, and I think it talks at the same point. What a privilege to be tired from the work you once dreamed about. What a privilege to feel overwhelmed by the growth that you used to dream about.

11:48What a privilege to be challenged by a life that you created on purpose. What a privilege to outgrow the things that you used to settle for. and it's a reminder that everything that we're doing is a gift really so much of the things that people are struggling with right now or that is bringing them criticism or where they're worrying about other people's opinion of themselves is because they've got themselves to a point where they're doing stuff that matters you know you don't worry about what people think of you if you're doing things that aren't important or don't matter to you right so therefore if you're regularly feeling this way maybe in some ways that's great because you've managed to engineer a life where the things that you're doing impact others and matter to you i've heard it said before that nobody who's doing better than you ever criticizes you yeah do you know what i mean like like because if somebody's gone down that path and they know how hard it is they're not the ones slagging you off or suggesting that you're a chancer or that you're a waste of space it's only people that want to be where you are or looking at what you're doing and don't appreciate it are the ones that are throwing the sticks and stones at you so what i love about that though is that there's also something there for fernando alonso of his mom and dad love him anyway he didn't need to be in formula one to be loved by his mom and dad you know they were the ones that put him in that car right do you remember when we saw the thing at three years old and he was driving around racing yes they were the people that loved him regardless of whether he was a formula one driver or not or whether he he became a world champion or not and i think there's a reminder there sometimes that you won't be criticised by people that see you for who you are it's only people that will make judgments of you that don't know you or are jealous or there's some kind of so are we saying to people listening to this have your team have your crew have your circle have your group where the feedback does matter where if they said you know what i don't think that's good enough you take it on the chin and you understand it and you realise that feedback's a gift but at the same time as having that group also know that because you've got that group it actually gives you the right not to concern yourself with what other people are saying and thinking 100 i remember doing some work years ago with a rugby league player he was only a young lad and he was copying some terrible abuse and i was trying to think of how i could help him so i asked him to write down a list for me of the five people who if they told him that he was genuinely useless it would make him sit up pay attention and listen to them and on his list he had his parents he had his girlfriend he had his coach and he had his best friend or something like that they were the five and i said have they ever told you that you're useless and his answer was no they haven't because they understand how hard work the effort i make the sacrifices that go into it and that almost became his curated list of going so they're the ones that you do need to be checking your phone for after a game.

14:40They're the ones you do need to be checking in and speaking to. Anybody else hasn't earned the right to make that judgment call of you. They're entitled to their opinion. You can't stop them doing that. You can't shut them up. But you don't have to listen to them. I think it's so interesting, Damien. I'm going to take us to Matt Fraser now who is the CrossFit world champion, one of the greatest CrossFit coaches as well now. Silverback. That's his nickname. And what I like about this is that he's famous for being the very best in the world, right? But you don't have to be the best in the world to do something.

15:11Have a listen to what he told us. Well, I actually saw one thing yesterday. And it was kind of like a comedy video on Instagram. But it was like a PSA. And it was like, hey, guys, just for whoever needs to hear it, you don't need to be good at your hobbies to enjoy them. And for myself, I was like, oh, shit. That's good to hear every once in a while. because I'm a beginner in a lot of things that I do, whether it's dirt biking, shooting guns, jujitsu. It's like, well, no, I'm at the very start line. I've done a couple lessons. I'm absolute shit at all these things, but I love doing them. And it's like, well, yeah, you're not going to pick something up and just immediately be the best in the world at it.

16:00It's like, no, it requires a lot of fucking hard work. and I think looking at change, it can be tough to have this perspective without having the experience. Now, I think this is a really important point to make, right? Is that there are things in our life that we should do just because we enjoy them. And in his case, it was, as we just heard, jujitsu and dirt biking. But why have we added this idea that we can only do things if we're good at them? And actually, the reason why this is important and it's relevant to this conversation is if you are someone that struggles with other people's opinions of yourself, then doing things where you're doing it purely for the love of it, not for the success of it, it insulates you from criticism.

16:44Because as soon as you're not doing it for validation or for success or to hit a certain metric, well, it doesn't matter what people think because you're like, well, I'm just doing it for fun. And actually almost, well, it makes their thoughts and their opinions of what you're doing utterly irrelevant because it's just for fun. I'll tell you my word of the year that I adopted from the interview we did with the billing of Oliver Berkman was a telec. Because I'd never heard it before until I read his book. And a telec is doing something that doesn't have a point to it. So he uses the example in his book, Meditation for Mortals, of just going for a walk.

17:20You park your car up and you go for a walk and you end up back at the car. That is literally a pointless activity. but he went but it's not pointless because it's the getting out in nature it's the idea of a gentle exercise it's you might do it in somebody's company that you want but you're not doing it for any reason other than just the pleasure of going for that walk and i think the more italic activities we can add into our life means it takes away the expectation if you've got to be good at something just to be able to enjoy it. Yeah. And also, what life do we live if we fill the majority of our life with the stuff that we don't enjoy?

17:58Yeah. Because what do we talk about, actually? Sometimes on this show, high performance is about winning, right? So who's the high performer? The person that is winning and getting the gold medals and successful and very rich and lauded, but who hates the thing that they're doing that's got them there? Or is it the person that is actually pretty crap at most things, but spends their day doing the things that they love? Who's the high performer? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? I saw a graph this week from an educational advisor, a guy called Ian Gilbert, that puts out some really interesting posts.

18:30And he had a graph of children's enjoyment at school. And at year three, the enjoyment is off the charts. So when you're six or seven years of age, you love school. And it reaches an idea when you get to year eight and nine. That's when the pressure starts to kick in. People start talking about exams. you're doing subjects that you just patently don't enjoy or that are just not for you. The enjoyment of pupils hits rock bottom. It increases slightly as you get towards the end of the journey. But again, it makes me think about this idea that sometimes we do have to do topics. I'm not suggesting that all of school activities aren't without value.

19:12But I think this idea of sometimes just doing things for the enjoyment of them rather than to get better or to improve it can be incredibly valuable for sure should we hear from another guest you know who i'd like to include yeah go on then mark manson why i love this book of the subtle art of not giving a fuck yeah but there's a lovely line in it that sort of dissuades us all of thinking that we're special and therefore we've got something to protect let's listen to him explain like growing up i was told i was special and unique and extraordinary and blah blah blah and i hadn't done a fucking thing uh there is some research i have seen on this and i i believe what it says is that generally speaking you want to compliment your kids for effort not for necessarily like who they are like so you don't want to you don't want to tell them like oh you're so smart, you're so talented, you're so brilliant.

20:13Before they've done anything, you want them to do something and then say, you were so brilliant at that. You were so talented at that. It's almost like you praise the action, not the, not them, not their identity. It's a very interesting thought process that, isn't it? Because we're both parents, right? What's the one thing we say to our kids all the time? You're special. You're going to do great things. You're a miracle. You're unique. Like, amazing things are around the corner for you. What a great way to set people up for a life of struggle if you tell them life's going to be amazing and then it just so happens to be like most people's lives, which is relatively normal.

20:48It's a good way to insulate ourselves that, isn't it? Yeah, I think it's brilliant. Again, it goes back to this idea of don't keep raising the bar, just lower it, you know what I mean? Just give ourselves the permission to fail, to make mistakes and to be human. And he talks as well about the difference between kind of personal criticism and criticism related to the physical movements or the things that we're doing. And I think that's also really important. If people are giving you feedback based on your actions, based on your effort, then I do think there's more in that. Do you know what I mean?

21:20Yeah. I think once it's criticism or feedback or even praise for the action, then it should be listened to more than praise, criticism or feedback for the person. Well, definitely. I mean, this is something that when I work with sports teams, I often say this to coaches of like, how often do we train ourselves in giving feedback to somebody? Because sometimes when you go and work with athletes and you'll say, what feedback would you want to pass on to them? And they'll say, stop being a dickhead. And you go, no, that's useless feedback because you're attacking the person. What is it that makes you think they're a dickhead?

21:53And it might be they always turn up late or they're always complaining and grumbling. Right, give them feedback on that aspect of their behavior, not on their personality, because they can do something about it. And I think you're right, it's a really important distinction that Mark makes, that if you're going to listen to feedback and care about other people's opinions, listen to it when it's based on behaviors that you can alter and adapt, not when it's about you as a person. Very powerful. Final clip I want to play. You do this one. I'm not going to play the bit where Paul McKenna tried to hypnotize me to no longer eat crisps because it didn't work but i do want to play this clip from hypnotist paul mckenna have a listen simon's a fantastic uh person he's incredibly uh kind and generous um he's very candid you know which of the circles is he in in your life oh simon's real friend simon's been there for me whenever i've needed him uh he's wonderful and he said my my father said that um simon's father uh eric had said everyone's got a sign above their head saying make me feel important and uh you know one of the best-selling self-help books of all times how to win friends and influence people one of the sort of simple principles is actually listen and connect with somebody rather than sort of tell them how great you are you know connect listen etc and and i thought that was just a beautiful metaphor make me feel important because it's a nice thing.

23:20If you lift other people's energy up, they like you. They might not remember what you said to them, but they'll pretty much remember how you made them feel. So the reason why I wanted to play that is it's Paul reminding us about the fact that all actions have a consequence, right? So we've kind of framed this conversation today around us dealing with other people's opinions of ourselves. But if you're listening to this now, how are you making other people feel? And you might be thinking, well, this doesn't apply to me because I'm not critical of others. That's fine. But not being critical of them, is that enough?

23:52Should you be praiseworthy? Should you be full of love? Should you make them feel amazing? And I think I'd like to finish this conversation just by challenging people to consider when did they last make other people feel amazing for no reason other than making them feel amazing. I'm going to finish by quoting Eddie Jones when he said to us, mate, nothing you do is neutral. There you go. Nothing is neutral. Nothing is neutral. You don't ignore somebody. That's not a neutral act. That's an act that's erodes somebody's self-confidence. Giving somebody just that pat on the back, that moment of acknowledgement, that word of gratitude, that is a positive act and we can all be better at that.

24:33And I get frustrated with, and I've said this a few people, and they go, well, do they deserve it? Do they deserve that praise? You know, I don't want to give praise unless they deserve it. It's very important. And I'm thinking, well, what does it cost you? What does it actually cost you to just, for no reason other than the reason, just to go, hey, you're bloody brilliant, by the way. Or I love working with you. Or every time I see you, you make me feel great. I'm not saying lie, but what I am saying is it costs nothing to do that. So why do we have to set such a high threshold before we possibly praise other people?

25:00Let's have a much lower threshold. Like someone getting out of bed and getting into work and spending a day with you should be enough for you to go, hey, I really appreciate you. I love hanging out with you. So I love hanging out with you. And I love hanging out with you as well, Jake. And I love these conversations. I do. I find them helpful, don't you? Yeah, massively. Just to go back and sort of process the learnings are invaluable for us and hopefully they're valuable for anybody that's kind enough to tune in and listen. I hope so. And if you want to hear the full conversation with Paul or Mark, Matt, Fernando, or indeed Adam, then all you have to do is click the link in the description to this podcast and all of the show notes are in there.

25:39you can get all the details and please wherever you're listening to this conversation just hit follow or subscribe on the app it makes such a massive difference to our show so there you go the final things for you to think about make sure you're selective about who you listen to adopt the gift mindset remember that everything is a bonus do things because you enjoy them not because you necessarily have to be great at them remember action is what needs to be praised criticized or looked at not identity and finally are you doing enough to make others feel important? Because that comes for free and people will only give their best when they feel safe.

26:15So make people feel safe. Thanks a lot, Damo. Thanks, mate. And thanks to you for listening. See you again soon for another episode of High Performance.

26:38Thank you.