Stuart Broad: “Why I walked away at my peak” (E228)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes, and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged, and to grow. Here's what's coming up today. These guys have spent money to come and watch. They don't want to see you block the ball.

0:36Go and win the game. And if you lose trying to win, we're all happy, but go and win the game. People have spent the money to come and watch you here at Lord's Home of Cricket. Entertain them. Go and hit boundaries, hit sixes. You know, try and take wickets at every ball. If you can hold on as long to that feeling that you used to get as a kid when you open the curtains on a Saturday morning and you're praying for it not to be raining. You know, it's sunny and you're like, yes, I can play cricket, that's awesome. Or, yeah, I can play sport. It's a game based around being able to deal with failure and being able to deal with someone getting the better of you, but then bouncing back.

1:10You know, you're not going to score 100 every day. You're not going to get five for every day. But that's why you can't judge yourself on the outcome all the time. You have to judge yourself on how you felt. Challenge your limitations, but learn and stick by your strengths, I'd say. So welcome to High Performance, former England cricketer Stuart Broad, a man who had 18 years as a cricket professional, 17 years playing for England, delivering some of the most memorable moments the sport has ever seen. But what we get into on this conversation is how Stuart got there, both physically and mentally.

1:43And trust me, you are going to be blown away by the depths and the lengths that he went to, to get to the top and to stay there. And he is fascinating when he talks about the devastating moment that changed everything for him. Now, this was recorded live in a central London theatre in partnership with Fain. And after we spoke to Stuart and we had an interval, we then did an awesome Q &A where there was loads of questions put to him about the recent Ashes series, his favourite moments playing for the England team. He told some, honestly, some unbelievable, hilarious stories about his time in the game.

2:16And if you would like to hear that exclusive Q &A, which I think tells you so much about the kind of guy Stuart is, then just download the High Performance app right now. Go to the App Store, download the app, and you can get that exclusive content for free right there. But let's do this then. Let's find out how someone who stayed at the top of English cricket for so long managed to do it as we welcome England cricketer Stuart Broad to the High Performance Podcast.

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4:16Nice to see you. Great to be here. Awesome crowd, isn't it? Isn't it an awesome crowd, yeah. Yeah. Listen, let's sort of talk about where you're at this evening because you sit here tonight with the applause ringing in your ears, a beautiful photo behind you of you wearing your England cap, wearing your whites, but you sit here as a former England cricketer. Has that sort of sunk in? Have you come to terms with that? I'm glad you avoided the word retired England cricketer there. You've listened. I've read the book where he says, please don't say the word retired. Yeah. Ultimately, I think, anyone know, when you walk away from something that you absolutely love, it's one of the most difficult decisions going.

4:58Ultimately, I was in a place where I was bowling really well. I was enjoying my bowling. I was loving playing under Stokes and Baz. The team environment was sensational. Turning up each day, having a lot of fun. Of course, there's always pressure with international cricket, but I didn't feel a huge amount of pressure and scrutiny. I trusted the hierarchy. But ultimately, I knew I had a goal to finish playing for England. I knew I wanted my last ball to be at the pinnacle, England versus Australia, at the Oval, a gorgeous place to play. I think that's what makes me most proud is that I stuck to my principles of knowing that I wanted to finish at the top.

5:37And, you know, I went through a bit of an emotional roller coaster in the final 10 days of my career. I started thinking about it a bit at Old Trafford. And then the Oval just came so quickly. When you've got a big decision hanging over you, time seems to go, like disappear on you a bit, doesn't it? So I tried not to think too much about it because ultimately we need to win the Oval Test match. We've got to focus on performance and deliver a good game. But it got to the Friday night, so that would be day two, end of day two. And I'm like, I've got to make a decision here. You know, I've kept my sort of inner circle tiny.

6:12Neil Farrow, the great friend of mine, Molly, my mum and Alistair Cook were basically my real sort of confidences in it. And I had to, it was getting to that stage of the game is approaching the end. You know, I need to know what I'm thinking. And I FaceTimed Molly on the Friday night, still umming and ahhing a little bit. And she said, trust your gut, trust your gut, you know, we'll support you forever. Problem is I had no gut feeling. That was a really difficult thing. I said to Molly that on the FaceTime I said you know what I just wish I was like playing badly so something was telling me just walk away from it you know I've always had that fear of bowling against a 21 year old and them going I thought he was supposed to be good but I so I put the FaceTime down still a bit undersized I was like right I'm gonna go and knock on Stokesy's door verbalize the decision and see how I feel because ultimately I know him really well.

7:07He's a great friend of mine. I knew he wouldn't tell anyone. And I sort of knew I could call him 7am the next day if it didn't feel right and go, Stokesy, forget that. You know, I'm cancelling that decision. So I walked down the corridor, three doors down, knock on the door. He's like, who is it? I'm like, Brody. He goes, I'm icing my knee. I was like, right. So he's like plugged in, you know, to the wall and he's game ready. He said, can you call me? I'm like, oh, I prefer to see you face to face. And he said, as soon as I said that, he's like, I know something's coming here. So he got up, opened the door.

7:41I put my hand out and said, that's me. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, this is going to be my last game of cricket. And he was like, you're joking, aren't you? I was like, no, it's been a hard decision. But I knew I couldn't go with too much doubt because I didn't want it to be a negotiation. I needed to say it. And he gave me a massive hug. I said, thank you so much for being a great friend, but also giving me the most enjoyable 15 months. I said, just keep it to yourself tonight because I need to see how I feel in the morning type thing. And then woke up at 7am the next morning and felt lighter, fresher, happy, you know, no sad feelings and knew it was the right decision.

8:21And that's maybe when my gut feeling told me that it was the right call. So actually verbalising it to Stokesy helped me accept it and then went on the most incredible sort of journey for a couple of days that I've had in my career, really. And we will talk about those throughout the evening. Why does the word retirement sit so uneasily with you? 37 years old. That's literally everyone's dream. It feels so like... It feels so final, that word, doesn't it? Retirement. I just see it very much as a changing of career, a changing of paths. Ultimately, sport is a funny beast in the fact that most sports are quite age dependent.

9:04You know that you come to a time when either you can choose to go, which very rarely do you get to go on your own terms, or an injury comes or a loss of form comes and age wipes you out. So, yeah, I try and avoid the word retirement at all costs, really, and just see it as a new chapter in life, a change of direction. And I think that just helps me change my focus to being a positive one. And I know it's really early days, but how has it been since that incredible final ball? Because I don't think we speak to newly retired sports people very often about actually what it is like when the sense of purpose disappears overnight.

9:41You know, I've spent my life working with former professionals and I still see like when they're asked for their ID when we turn up to a football match or whatever. I see it sort of like it rankles with them a little bit. Actually, as you say about ID, I, so I, I wasn't going to say the I word there. I moved away from the playing side on the Monday, the Monday night. So the Tuesday sort of packed up the hotel, went home, nice relaxed day. And I was actually, I had booked these back in in February. I was working at Lords for Sky on the Wednesday on a hundred game. So I had my players pass, which gets you into every ground around the country at any time.

10:16You know, if you need to go and train or use the gym or facilities, get to the gate at Lords and my players pass. Zap, just this red light comes up. Oh, wow. And I'm like, try it again, red light. I was like, sorry, this is a player's pass, should get me in. He goes, oh, let me check. No, no, I don't think you can get in. I said, well, I'm working today, can I get in? No, you haven't got the right pass. So I'm there, like, outside with fans gathering around, like, trying to get it, call someone from Sky, saying, I need a new pass, this pass won't get me in, I'm not a player anymore, they've cancelled it on me already, type thing, so that was quite a unique experience.

10:53But yeah, I think I'm still riding a bit of a high from the end of July. It was the most incredible series, exhilarating, had everything. It had so much drama. One of the most enjoyable series I played in. And I don't think it's going to necessarily hit me that I'm a former cricketer until I see Jimmy Anderson walk on the field with his whites and a cap or Stokesy take the field and I'm not there. and I think, you know, I've been quite sensible over a period of time to chat to former pros and like Savoy Morgan, Cookie, you know, friends that have moved away from the game and every single one of them's had a moment at some stage of, oh my goodness, that's not me anymore, I'm not there anymore and I think mine's either going to come when they go to India in January or when they walk out of Trent Bridge at the start of next season, that pre-season, you know, the freshly mown grass, that the weather's started to get better.

11:50It's cricket season. It might come then. But I'm prepared for that. I feel like I'm prepared for that. It's not going to hit me and be a big shock. So I'll let you know when it comes. I want to talk in this sort of first part of the show about one of the key things really that stems from the book, which is your mindset and the way that you worked so hard behind the scenes, the things that we've never seen that you had to do to get yourself to where you wanted to be. So I'd like to start right at the very beginning. you know you're writing the book brilliantly about your mum saying to you look don't go to uni just give it a couple of years as a as a professional cricketer and if it doesn't work out you can go to uni then but why not give it a go why not explore and see I'd love to know what it was like the first time that you turned up and actually suddenly this was no longer simply a game this was now going to be your career yeah so throughout I was very lucky throughout my my childhood you know my dad had played for england 25 tests and sometimes i think when you're the the child of someone that's achieved something there's an added pressure or scrutiny or you know maybe coaches at clubs think oh you should be better than you are your dad played for england type thing but i my parents sort of protected me from that quite a lot and mum was was incredible for me because sport was about fun about enjoyment so i'd get back in the car after a game of football rugby, cricket, whatever.

13:09First question, without fail, have you had fun? Have you enjoyed it? Her belief was you could turn up on a Saturday, get no runs, no wickets, drop a few catches, but you can still enjoy your time with your friends. If you're basing everything at that age on performing and results, then it just creates so much pressure on you. And then it becomes like a job when you're trying to be learning and experiencing the most. And I tried to hold that mindset as much as I possibly could throughout my whole career about fun and enjoyment and definitely finished it the last 15 months with that being, you know, the pinnacle.

13:43Like my memories of cricket will be brilliant because of my feelings at the end. But she definitely, it definitely changes when you become a pro. It definitely does. You know, if you can hold on as long to that feeling that you used to get as a kid, when you open the curtains on a Saturday morning and you're praying for it not to be raining, you know, it's sunny and you're like, yes, I can play cricket. That's awesome. Or yeah, I can play sport. And sometimes with media pressure and expectancy and why you're not on the team, why you're struggling a bit, you can lose that slightly. Why is that?

14:16I'm not sure. I mean, I've tried to, I've never seen it as a job. It's always been a hobby for me. I love cricket. I hope to stay in cricket for the rest of my life. You know, my family, it's in my family's blood, really. It's a great love of mine. But there's something about crossing that line as a pro that maybe you just take it too seriously sometimes. Ultimately, it's a game of sport that you're playing with your friends. And I think that's what Baz and Stokesy have done so incredibly well is they've brought it back at the top level, by the way, you know, with millions of people around the globe watching.

14:47They've brought it back to feeling like you're playing club cricket on a Saturday and almost feel like you should go and pay attention to play. Yeah. I mean, it's that sort of feeling they've brought it back to. So what was your emotion the first time that you went to work as a pro cricketer? Were you excited? Was there a sense of imposter syndrome? What are your memories of that time? Certainly, I had a few different memories that I can remember. One was a really positive one. So I played in the biggest game of my career at the time was a T20 finals day at Trent Bridge. And Essex had been traveling really well.

15:21They had a few stars in their team. We were like the underdogs. And I fronted up in that game. I was hugely competitive. I didn't back down to any of their senior players. Ronnie Arani had had an amazing series for them and attacked me a little bit. What age are you here? 19, I think. But he said, right, this is the young whippersnapper. I'm going to take him on verbally and physically and try and overpower him. And I stood up to that really well. What was he saying?

15:52He said, the rumors are true. you're as big a swear word as your dad was. And I sort of said along the lines of, well, you're old enough to have played against both of us, type route, and got him out. He got a nine ball nought. And you can see when I get him out, I'm obviously like buzzing and my whole team, because they've heard the verbals going on erupt. But then after that sort of showing, I got picked for England. And this is, I wouldn't say it's imposter syndrome. I was buzzing to be, I was really excited about the opportunity. but it's overpowering. So 2006, I'm walking into a team room of those 05 heroes, Strauss, Truscoffit, Goff was in there, Harmeson and I've got no experience.

16:38I'm suddenly in a team meeting with guys that I've idolised on TV and I'm there. I rock up and they've all got Jaguars and Mercs and I've got a Vauxhall Corsair. I'm a bit like parking in the car, parking in the corner type thing. but Goffey and I speak about this in the book actually how good Goffey was for me and that's the reason I wore the number 8 shirt throughout my career he took me under his wing he amazingly let me bowl with the wind on my England debut which you know it sounds a little thing but it was his little way of saying you're the youngster have every advantage going for you because I know how hard this is and that was a really special thing for him to do and I think that's why I got that bond with him even now if I see him you know we have a hug and we just know that we've got that number eight club.

17:23We've got that mutual respect because he treated me so well as a kid. You spoke nicely in the book as well about Otis Gibson. Yeah, I love him. What was it that you saw then in him early on and you thought, right, that is the standard that I need to be operating at? Yeah, like true professional. You know, he'd go to the swimming pool every single morning. I think he was 37, 38 at the time, but he committed so much work into his game that I think that was quite influential for me because I saw a 37-year-old doing that when I'm 18. I said, well, if he's doing it at that age, I should be doing it now.

17:55So he taught me everything about working on your game, looking to improve all the time, picking things in your game. So he'd actually left the game and become a coach and come back out of finishing playing to play again because he felt he learned so much being a coach that he wanted to put it into practice again. And yeah, he just had nuggets of information just spurring me on all the time, but without filling me with all sorts of stuff all the time. So yeah, he went on to coach the West Indies, South Africa. Do you remember an early bit of advice from him where you thought that's golden? It wasn't so much the verbal advice all the time.

18:29I could just watch him. I could just watch it. He got in the battle on the field. He'd always do the hard yards on the field, which I respected, but look after himself incredibly off it. I'm lucky. Jimmy and I are the same. We've played in an era where we've got the nutrition, we've got the science, We've got the facilities. He almost did it before that era came, but I could watch him and just think, I could get to 37, you know, if I do what he does. What I like is that you write in the book about your upbringing and you were talented and your parents gave you this opportunity and then you get the chance and, you know, you went up against Ronnie Arani and that went really well and suddenly you're playing for England.

19:06Got the blonde highlights. Got the blonde highlights and probably got rid of the Corsa. And then Durban happens. and what was probably the darkest day in your career at that point I have no doubt was really important in shaping you for the future would I be massively yeah and uh you know I haven't really talked about uh the six sixes in Durban at all because I I had this mentality that after 24 hours I'm going to park the bus leave it behind I sort of knew where I'd or was aware where I'd gone wrong and I didn't want to have those feelings again in my playing career. It was too hurtful, too damaging.

19:44But I knew what I'd done wrong in that instance. I'd got maybe a touch comfortable. I was 21 maybe and for three months I was talented. I'd played for England a bit. I'd had the odd good performance. I was inconsistent. But I thought, yeah, I've got this game. I know what I'm doing. And I had no mental preparation. I had no real physical preparation that I stuck to and played this T20 World Cup game in Durban. South Africa played first and we had maybe a 10, 15 minute turnaround for TV. Then the next game's on. So it's all a bit rushed. So, you know, you're getting out there, you take a few catches, right, get a feel for it.

20:27I only had time to mark one end of the pitch where my run up would be because I knew I was going to start that end. so looking back on it the captain, I think it was Collie said, oh, we're going to bowl this end, 19th over I was like, alright, yep so I'm immediately thinking, okay, I've not marked run-up out there, that's not great so got the ball and just got my run-up sorted, scratched the mark so immediately I've not thought once about where I'm going to bowl, not thought once about my field, I've not set about who I'm bowling at, you know it was Doni at one end, Juvie at the other both set, flat pitch, had no real plan and I tried to bowl, which I, you know, I tried to bowl six of the same delivery and really after three I should have gone, that's not working.

21:12Yeah. And was no one there to say to you, you're young, you're getting yourself into a hole here, just stop and take a breath? I think Collie sort of came up a little bit and said, do you think we should change the field or something? But by then everything was happening so quickly and sparring out of control and, And why I think it was quite a, obviously a devastating thing to have happened to me at such a young age, but it gave me a bit of a kick to say, right, you need to get some processes in place to look after yourself under pressure. It all became a scramble. You know, if you've had moments in your career where you can't really remember that last 10 minutes, you're like, ooh, what happened there?

21:51So I needed to put some things in place that I never bowled six balls the same ever again. That was one learning first. That was probably the only physical thing. but the mindset thing is I created a routine around that that I stuck with all the way up until my last game in July. And yes, it evolved and grew over particularly the first three or four years of me learning about it. But I think I mentioned to you before, my dad said the game's 80 % mental, 20 % technical when I was 15 years old. And I was like, what's he on about? Absolute nonsense. I actually think it's more than that. That's probably 90-10 because the mental routines of what I put in place that day held me pretty strong for the next sort of 16, 17 years.

22:36And it almost took that moment of chaos to wake me up a bit, to realize talent doesn't really get you that far. Actually, you need to work very hard on the different side of the game and the sport that actually will drag you further. And I was lucky in the fact that that happened to me at 21. takes up some players in all sports to the 25, 26 to really get to grips of starting that process. And then by the time they're 29, they get it. So they have three or four years of success. Whereas I felt like I got it by the time I was 26. So I could have 11 years of pretty consistent success. What changed after that moment?

23:14So my mum's always had a 24 hour rule, like you're allowed to be a bit disappointed or focus on things that maybe didn't go so well for 24 hours, lose a game, 24 hours. And then that 24 hours hits, look forward right where are we moving to and uh i had the 24 hours in a hotel room of of a bit of devastation and then i'd start looking at the positives while we were already out of the world cup didn't didn't knock us out of a world cup we didn't lose a trophy because of my poor decision making etc i eventually came up with this thing called warrior mode which would control everything about bowling a spell so the routine of of um i'd always run over the boundary's edge because that's me then entering my battle arena, so to speak.

23:56And then I'd sit to a routine before bowling my first ball. It's funny, I'm talking here and it's all mental work. Not one bit of me went physically, I need to do loads of different things. It was very much, I need to build a mental framework about being able to deliver more consistently. And it took a bit of time to evolve, but I'd say the last 10 years of my career, I pretty much got it spot on. Look, that's quite a big thing. to create an almost a different persona for the minute you cross the white line, this idea of warrior mode. I mean, that's almost too much work for you to do on your own.

24:30So did you bring someone into the fold at that point or did you have conversations with psychologists or anything that you maybe hadn't had until that point? Yeah, I must admit, I mean, I made my day in 06. Sports psychologists were maybe around, but they weren't overly used. It's become very much the culture now that every player would build a routine around training and playing with the team sports psychologist. But I probably only really grew into that 2008, 2009 of really working with some individual, Mark Borden, who was with the team. And we'd check in all the time, do sort of little checkboards of what I'd be looking to achieve in that day.

25:14And he'd email me in the evening and say, did you do this? Did you do this? Did you do this? What sort of things? Did you get in a contest? It was never about the results, never like, did you take wickets? Did you get in a contest? Did you create chances for your team? Did you lead the players in a competitive way? Did you give positivity to someone within the changing room? Just little things that take you away. I think with all psychology things, it probably evolves over time of things you want to tweak and want to stop. But one of the most important things actually was, remember as a bowler the game can't start until you're ready so actually physically the game doesn't move until I go okay I'm ready to deliver my the first ball and um I would start that process the day before so like I said to you when I got hit for six six is I started that process I didn't have a run out marked I'd never practiced a ball from that end so there was no process there was no process I was I was I was like scratching my mark you know having to bowl so I'm not one moment did I think, what am I going to bowl first ball here?

26:17What's my field? I'd just gone, right, where's my runner? You wouldn't go out with a plan for what your first ball was going to be. Well, it was unique in that World Cup because South Africa had played a game just before us and then there was a 10-minute turnaround and when we played the game, so you didn't have time to do a full warm-up and a check. But, you know, for the final 10 years of my career, the day before a game, I'd go to the end I was going to start and I'd bowl. I'd imagine the crowd cheering or booing like Australia. I'd imagine like if I'm at Lord's the champagne corks popping all that sort of thing I can really feel it and then I'd bowl 24 balls in my mind all just going through to the wicket keeper so then when I arrived on the day of the game I felt like I'd already done that and for five years I before I went to sleep the night before I'd bowl those balls in my mind before I slept but then I found I didn't need to do that because I could already feel the emotion of what I'd already done so I was almost visualizing the bowling before I'd done it so I felt comfortable when I did actually bowl and that was warrior mode you also write in the book about assassin mode which also sounds very dangerous um and I think a few opposition players might have seen that over the years explain assassin mode that's when warrior mode got a bit heated and I had to bring it down you know that's when I had to really sort of if I if my emotions got a bit sky high or I got a bit competitive and don't like I think you remember with the Alex Carey incident when I was batting that I don't control this all the time, bear in mind.

27:39It's not 100 % success rate. But Assassin mode was just little things to bring my emotions down. So Warrior mode, okay, Ashes, day one, ramp it up. Get the crowd going. Bang, up we go. Assassin mode, things aren't going so well. Maybe you got a bit heated out there. You've leaked a few runs. How do you bring your emotions down? And that, connected with that is disconnecting a bit from the game, picking, going to talk to a teammate rather than getting too involved with an opposition. It's just putting a structure in place really that when it's not going so well on the field, instead of it not going so well for half an hour and you lose the game, it doesn't go so well for 10 minutes.

28:21You can drag yourself back out of there and go, right, let's get back on track. What are we focusing on? And you write often in the book about, and you only sort of give it fleeting mentions. Oh, my note making or my note taking or I wrote my notes and that helped me. I'd love to delve a bit deeper into this if possible. Do you remember when you first started diligently writing notes to yourself in your career? I started to dabble at 26-ish. How did it begin? I was working with the sports psychologist of the team, Mark Borden, and we started to... Actually, one of them, this is a bit silly, but Andy Flowers getting annoyed that I wouldn't turn around to the umpire when appealing, which was turned into a celeb appeal.

29:03So Andy had gone to the sports psychologist and said, I need you to work with Brodie and get him turning around to the umpire when he appeals. So the sports psychologist comes to me and goes, I've got a challenge for you. So I'm like, oh, yeah, should I work on a new ball? No, no, you've got to turn around to the umpire. So I'm like, oh, fair enough. So he put in plans that I'd train it, actually, in practice, turn around to it. He'd stand as umpire every time I got an appeal, I'd turn around to him. And then he'd review it every time. So he said, I need you to start writing down when you feel like it was the first thing that came to your mind to turn around and when it didn't spring to mind.

29:37After about three months of really trying to turn around, I realised this isn't working at all. I just can't physically bring myself to turn around. Those 20 seconds when you hit someone on the pad, you're just flying around with aeroplanes and all sorts. I was like, I'm fighting a losing battle here, but there's something in it that I really found therapeutic of writing things down. It connected me to my emotions and it connected me to how I wanted to target that day. And I did it loosely and evaluated, not on performance, but I evaluated whether I had good intent, whether I created chances for the team, whether I led the team positively onto the field, whether I spoke positively in changing rooms.

30:21So that's what I evaluated at the start. And then back... Did you set yourself a challenge on the notes for that day or not? Was it reflective at the beginning? Reflective. It was like an evaluation of the day. Did I, was I positive? Did I speak well in the changing room? Did I create chances? Did I have the right attitude on the field? And then the back end of my career, the last five, six years, it turned into how I wanted to operate. So I didn't ask myself those questions. I was more three thoughts, three feelings, three things I'm grateful for. So every morning, I mean, particularly throughout this Asher series, I wake up, coffee and go, you know, how am I feeling?

31:01And what I got really good at in the last six years is actually being genuinely honest with my feelings. I would actually write down. So first morning of the ashes test at Edgbaston, I'm feeling nervous, you know, connect to that nervousness. Why am I feeling nervous? Of course, I'm going to feel nervous. First day of the ashes, you know, it sets up the pinnacle of the series. It's such an, I might bowl the first ball of it. So I need to prepare for that. That's why I've got a bit of anxiety and um you know i'd get i actually that day got to the game chatted to jimmy feeling a bit nervous how are you feeling he goes yeah i was going to mention the same to you because legs are feeling heavy already i've not really done anything so we connected already because i had the i don't know like the not bravery but i'd established how i was feeling in the morning put it down on paper and that opened it up to me so then i could then connect with teammates and go how you feeling?

31:49You good? You feel great? And Jimmy, I went, no, I feel nervous. I said, God, I do as well. Were you lying to yourself at the beginning and not being really honest with actually how you felt, do you think? Yeah. Yeah, I was being how I wanted to feel instead of how I felt. And definitely the better mindset I got in the last couple of years of how I felt helped me. Because I do think, sometimes I wake up knackered, like bold 20 overs, feel still. And Stokesy and Baz are very positive in the changing. They want positive language. So I'd have to write down, right, today, you're just going to have to be so over-positive, because I know you feel tired, but go in and first thing you say is, how good's that coffee at the hotel?

32:28You know, little things. I know that sounds silly, but I'd walk in and go, God, you don't want to have the cappuccinos, unbelievable, at the hotel. You know, because it starts me off. Because the works I've done with psychologists, they say, everyone would have had it when you walk into an office and someone goes, I feel tired. And you might not feel tired, but then you go, do I feel tired? yeah I do feel a bit tired actually yeah yeah a bit of a late night yeah I feel tired so the Baz's culture is about breeding confidence and positivity in that way and he's so authentic with it doesn't necessarily come that naturally to me so I had to connect with my note writing to then be able to go I feel great actually I'm actually going to give positive energy to the group because I've got my real like thoughts down on a piece of paper if that makes sense because you say in the book that there was a point where you were actually a bit negative maybe around the place?

33:17Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think definitely day three, you might have not any wickets or you might have not bowled well. The pitch doesn't feel great. So Edgebaston, again, for an example, Lords, for example, I had written in there, appreciate the pitch isn't suiting you. Know it's slow. Know it's not really working for you, but is what it is. Get over it. You know, you've noted it, but the lads don't need to hear that. So that was the sort of thing that I think I developed massively with towards the end and wish I did that earlier for sure.

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35:58And I still think, you know, particularly in this country, I still think we're a little bit suspicious of this sort of stuff. But the truth is, you know, you've operated at the elite level. and gone out on the most incredible high, you wouldn't have been able to do what you did without it, would you? No, no. I think I relied on talent for the sort of early part of my career and then Durban happened and that was a slap like, OK, talent isn't going to get you very far in this game. You've got to build other things. And then I would say the mentality side of my game, I'm not the most talented. I have to work really hard.

36:34I always had something looking to drive me forward. I mentioned to you about having an Everest in my mind. What's my Everest? What am I chasing? So this summer it was, I know Steve Smith and Marnus don't like the ball so much moving away from them. I'm going to create an outswinger that I'm going to work really hard on. Of course I could bowl an outswinger. I'm 36 years old at the time. I needed to be better. I need to be on the money straight away. And that was something that moved me forward. and I always had to have a goal that was tangible and close. So the Everest might be ashes four years' time.

37:10What's going to get me there? Well, the outswinger to Marlison Smith will help me. The round the wicket to the left-handers will help me. So it's little goals within a big one. And ultimately, if you just keep them in your own brain and don't, not verbalise them, but don't put them on paper to appreciate and look at and review against, well, you're just floating around. You don't actually have the direction that you need. And you describe yourself in the book as being an adaptable realist. What's that? That was actually part of my psychological report. Yeah, the ECB do. They do sort of a big test on you as players every couple of years to help the coaches, actually, so the coaches can figure out the best way to talk to players and get the best out of them.

37:54And yeah, I was an adaptable realist. So basically, don't give me wishy-washy nonsense. I don't want to hear like stats and facts that don't mean anything. Give me a direct, this will improve you because of this. And then I can adapt and go for the realism of that information. And when you were on the pitch, you know, you got to this point, you'd made your notes, you'd been working with the psychologist, you'd incredible natural ability, working really hard, but things still go wrong. Absolutely. How did you deal with that? What were your, you wrote about trigger thoughts. What were the sort of trigger thoughts?

38:26What were the tools you had in your armour that when things weren't going right, you could deal with them? Well, I mean, having partnerships within the group was massive. So Jimmy is a great friend of mine and a big partner, Stokes, he's the same. I think it's really difficult. I have so much respect for individual sports people, you know, tennis players and who have to do all this themselves. If they're slightly off, they've got to find exactly what they're doing and put it right straight away. Whereas I definitely use the energy of other people to bounce ideas off and, and, and be like, Jim, I just, I feel like I'm overstriding.

39:00Have a look at this, would you for two balls and give me a feedback. So a trigger for me would be get out of here of your own brain, get, stop being internal, get external for a minute, ask a, ask an opinion of someone because it gets then out of my brain and into someone else's. And they might go, actually, yeah, your knees are not picking up like they were. And then if that doesn't work for me, the crowd, because if I'm thinking technical, running in, going, right, where are my shoulders? What's my front arm doing? You know, all that winds in my face, it's just put me off. I'm done. I need to have something else that's got my mind in that competitive spirit.

39:37And the crowd became, in my notes, a big thing. Probably the most written thing throughout this Asher series was engage the crowd. And if I felt a bit energyless or things weren't going my way, just felt slightly off, out it came, you know, here we go. You know, and that actually became a really big thing for me because it's quite a brave thing to do that, you know, ultimately young players aren't going to do that so much because if I engage the crowd and then bowl a pile of rubbish, not a great look, is it? So, but that helped me rev myself up, get myself in a competitive spirit because I knew that I had to deliver my skill but also everything became external and I stopped thinking about little nonsenses that were taking me away from the battle and you do all that and you still get hit for six right what happens then internally you swear yeah so so one of my little triggers that I actually picked up from Tiger Woods was always look above the stands so the view of that is if someone's watching on tv or the opposition are watching me.

40:42I wouldn't want them to know if I've been hit for four, bowled a great ball, got a play and miss, been hit for six. My posture should never change walking back to my mark. I should always be head up, six foot six, head up, stand tall, eyes above the stands. And ultimately, my view on it was if I got my eyes to the clouds, I'm not thinking about, you know, it's weird when you're on the pitch, you do see faces. You think, cool, that fan's a bit disappointed with that. You know, you do, you do, you go, oh God, like they're all just drinking the champagne now. They're not interested in this anymore.

41:13So I get my eyes above the stands and zone out of the hot zone for a bit, refocus, turn and go. That would be a big trigger for me to, you know if I'm not getting it quite right, if my eyes are really up. You know, I'm getting out of the cauldron. I'm making sure that I leave that ball behind and reset. But yeah, I think ultimately, Josh Butler and I have this conversation all the time. Cricket's an interesting sport that really, only probably one in 10, two in 10 days are really great days. It's a game based around being able to deal with failure and being able to deal with someone getting the better of you, but then bouncing back.

41:52You're not going to score 100 every day. You're not going to get five for every day. But that's why you can't judge yourself on the outcome all the time. You have to judge yourself on how you felt, whether you delivered your skill, whether you did all you can do. Because ultimately, I can bowl the best spell of my life, get nonfer and then uh bowl really badly and get five far so if i'm jumping for joy when i get five it's actually false um and then if it's all going to poo then just flip the bales over and you're all right it worked for you

42:27i tried it twice in my career and two wickets fell in those it should have tried it 17 years ago it would have been all right. Actually, the first one was, you know, I'll talk about the second one. The first one was Mark Wood was bowling at Minas Labashian. I'm at mid on and the oval's gone quiet. It's got 11 runs in, 14 overs. We're bowling great. Player misses. We're not getting a nick. And I was stood at mid on thinking, I'm bored. And I'm playing Ashes cricket. If I'm bored, what are the crowd thinking? And, you know, we're all, our team ethos is about entertaining in the crowd and I thought I'd heard it turns out I thought I heard I'd heard that there was an Australian habit that if you flip the bales over it was a change of luck I've spoken to quite a few Australians since and none of them have confirmed that theory but I walked up to the bales at Marnus's end a bit to get in his grill a little bit into his bubble just get into his space sort of be a presence there and I flipped them over and not many people noticed actually and I wandered back to mid-arm and Mark Wood got the edge, Roots took a great catch and I was like it's worked, I can't believe it.

43:40So I started running towards Stokesy, who's captain at mid-off because he was like cheering away and on my route to Stokesy, Usman Khawaja, the non-strikers at the stumps and for the first time my whole career I celebrated with the opposition. I put my hands on his shoulders and went it worked it worked I was like what am I doing um and got and that's when got to my teammates and they're like oh my god you changed the bales it worked like what did you do that for I said I thought it was a change of luck it's like oh that's unbelievable uh so it worked number one and uh very strangely it worked number two as well yeah and we will uh we'll have a look in the second half of the show about the moment that happened and the luck that that came from it You've mentioned a couple of times there, playing with freedom, focusing on the process, not the outcome.

44:28This is all messages from Brendan McCullum, right? It's what he lives by, yeah. It's basball era, but you're not allowed to say basball because he hates the phrase basball, right? That's true. I'll say it, you don't. I mean, it took the country by storm this summer. I would love to know, when Brendan first walks in, what does he do, what does he say to take away the fear of playing for your country on the biggest stage of all? because it's one thing to say, don't be fearful. It's a totally different thing to be able to create that in a team. Yeah, I mean, he took over a time we'd won one in 17 tests.

45:00So it's almost like, you know, if you're a coach, it's probably a great time to take over, isn't it? You're not going to do any worse than what's come. And you can really stamp a different mindset or a different authority on it. And, you know, he was in the laws change room. He's not one for PowerPoint presentations. He doesn't do grand speeches. We were just getting ready for training day one. and he said, boys, just, you know, I have a couple of minutes. You know, I want us to play attacking cricket. I'm going to back you as players. You're my team. I want us to always have the mindset that if you can take the attacking option, do it.

45:35You've got, you know, that's what the changing room want from you. He lives by this saying, sort of, run towards the danger. You know, if there's danger, run at it, don't back off it. And he'll always encourage you to, you know, sprint towards pressure moments. Does that work for everyone, though? Well, it has in this team because you sort of got to live by that, you know, and it's a talk in the changing room. If we go a bit negative in with our shell, like recognize that, come out of it. And he said, love you to get on the back pages of the papers, but never end up on the front, which is quite a good message as well.

46:08So I think what did he do to sort of get that fear of failure, that positivity within the group? A, I think it's incredibly authentic to both Ben and him that this positive style of cricket, he was a genuine believer that in cricket to sell tickets in the stadium, you're fighting against football, theatres, cinemas, museums. People have spent the money to come and watch you here at Lords, the home of cricket. Entertain them. Ultimately, they don't want to see you block it and try and survive. Go and hit boundaries, hit sixes, try and take wickets at every ball, which is quite a free way of looking at the game because ultimately professional sport I've always viewed professional sport as this long straight road and the better you can stay on that straight road there's all things trying to knock you off all the time trying to bunt you off but if you stay on that straight road you'll have great success and he was just basically saying this is the direction forward we're going to run forward all the time we're going to take no negativity in the change honestly in 15 months I've never heard him say one negative word not once and I think that's really important because if he comes out and says play without fear I'm going to back you I prefer you to get caught long off than caught in the slips defending than if you get out caught long off and he goes that's a crap shot why did you play that?

47:27the whole thing's blown but also if your teammates go shouldn't have played that shot that's not acceptable it's all about you just need to hit that a yard further if you hit it a yard further that's six great shot so it's a freedom and one thing that he is incredible at, which is only a tiny thing, he praises small things within the changing room. So if Joe Root gets 150, he's not there going, Joe, you're the best player in the world. You're amazing. 150, another one. Well done. Awesome. Barely even mentions the 150. He'll go, Johnny Bester might have got 15, but hit two great fours. He'll go, I just want to say, Johnny, those two fours, they changed the momentum of the game.

48:08Honestly, that's exactly what we want to play like. that's exactly what we want you you put the pressure back on the bowlers yeah you got out but you got out in a way that we're trying to promote the game so stick doing that and if you continue doing that you'll win as a game soon and just doing little things like that suddenly johnny's got 15 and he's sat there like that baz mentions him he's like yeah yeah you know and it's a tiny like he really focuses on on building up little positivities all the time you know for me he knew I'm a competitive person, it would be, you know, get in a battle for us today or get the crowd, crowds you today, crowds you, just reminded me, even if I go a bit quiet, he'll spot it and go, go on, get everyone going out there.

48:54Because he knows, never come to me and go, think about your front arm or you look like you're running, your stride pattern's too long. Nothing ever like that. You know, he says, you'll never see me on the tools. What he means by that, you'll never see him get technical and going on the laptop and studying why you're getting out because your foot's gone an inch that way he's got cover coaches that can guide that but he's very much the mentality of being positive and you know without sticking on Baz too long there was one moment at Trent Bridge if you remember England New Zealand we needed we're chasing 280 got to T I needed 170 this is only a second ever game in charge Ben and Johnny are at the crease and come in at T games on the line a bit.

49:36And Ben focuses in next. And Ben goes, oh, if we lose a wicket, like what's my job? Am I shutting up shop? Am I, you know, going for the draw, get the draw with one up in the series? Everyone in, everyone come in. In we get 20 minute tea break. Just so we're all clear, we're going for the win at all costs. Jimmy, you're the last man. If you get out there, try and hit boundaries, try and hit runs, take the game away from New Zealand. And, you know, I don't believe in draws. I'm not interested in draws. Look outside. And he made everyone look at Trent Bridge, full house on a Monday. He goes, these guys have spent money to come and watch.

50:11They don't want to see you block the ball. Go and win the game. And if you lose trying to win, we're all happy. But go and win the game. And everyone was like, OK, that's quite un-English. And we went out after tea. So everyone sort of sat there watching. and Matt Henry bowls Johnny Bester, a bouncer, first ball after tee, and Johnny ducks it and Stokesy walks down to Johnny and goes, what are you doing? And Johnny goes, well, I was having a look at it, first ball after tee. He goes, don't have a look at it, hit it for six. And then, as you remember, Johnny just went, got 100 and we won the game and I think that was such a crucial moment because it was the coach saying what he wanted and then a senior player went and delivered it and that just gave the whole group such belief that anything was possible and we went on that run of winning 10 out of 11, I think.

50:59And ultimately, I think the thing that rang true the most for me was we're 2-0 down in the ashes this year. I'm walking out getting a coffee with Molly and someone walked past me and went, loving the cricket, keep going. And I wanted to go, we're 2-0 down. That was my instinct. I love winning and I said, we're 2-0 down. We need to win the next game. But that really stuck with me that actually the public were just enjoying the style of cricket and Baz have managed to change not just 11 players, maybe even the public's view that this is an entertainment sport and actually it's more fun watching teams have a real crack.

51:40And if it fails, yeah, we don't mind losing. But if it's successful, it's really fun. We also can't discount the role of Ben Stokes in this sense. You wrote brilliantly in the book about your admiration for Brendan, but also you make it absolutely clear your deep respect for Ben. What lesson from your time spent with him would you like to share with us that really sort of lays bare just what a special player he is, but more than that, a special person, a special leader? Yeah, a few times. I mean, he's very authentic with what he says. You can tell that he never pre-writes a speech or anything and comes to deliver it.

52:17He just sort of says what comes to his mind that time. But I think the style of cricket that we play is very much how Stokesy lives his life without speaking out of turn. He's quite helter-skelter. He's quite unpredictable. You don't really know what's coming your way. And that's how we play cricket, really. But he actually, before he took over as captain, but he covered a game when Rudy was, his second child was being born. And I actually, Stokes, he dropped me. It was the COVID game at South Africa. I did a bit of a silly interview in a big brother tent, if you remember. And he dropped me because he sort of said, I'm going with the pace of these guys.

52:57And I felt quite emotional about that. I was leading wicket-taker in the world at the time. I didn't agree with the decision. And the next day, we weren't allowed in each other's room. It was the COVID. You had your own room. You weren't allowed to eat together. You had single exam tables to eat on, all that sort of thing. And he knocked on my door and came in my room, which we weren't allowed to do at the time. And it wasn't him coming in as a captain or anything. He just went, how are you, mate? How are you doing? I was just sat in a dark room. It wasn't around family or anything because we weren't allowed out.

53:26And that was probably his strongest bit of leadership. He knew that he'd maybe been quite a big part in the decision of leaving me out. But he had the heart and respect to come and knock on my room and just check how I was. He didn't go, how are you bowling? How's the cricket? All that. Just because how are you doing? And, you know, that's probably he's like that with every single player. He calls you at random times just checking in how you're doing. So he's just ultimately Baz and Stokes. They're just really great human beings and that's led to the team just falling in love with their style of leading, I think.

53:56Brilliant. And what did that do for you when he came in and said that? It lifted me. I mean, I had no real anger towards him anyway, particularly. I was angry a bit myself for not getting in the team and some other decision making that I didn't agree with. But ultimately, I loved the fact that he took ownership of the decision a little bit and looked at me in the eye and said he had a part to play. He didn't say it was the wrong decision or the right decision. But, you know, he boosted me from that moment. I knew it wasn't a personal thing. I knew our friendship wasn't going to be affected. I could draw a line in the sand and go and attack and get better.

54:33And actually, I had a really good end of that summer from that moment. So, yeah, that taught me that if there's ever any sort of niggle or question marks and someone's brain's whirling, just go and speak to them. Be honest. Go and almost attack the awkwardness and people get over it. We all know what you did as a cricketer. I think this has been such an interesting insight into how you've done it. I suppose, before we wrap up this first half, I'm interested in where does the energy go now? You're someone who made notes every day. You're someone who was in a team environment. You were ultra competitive.

55:06You had your Everest. You had the next test, the next series, the next competition, the next opportunity to push yourself to the limit. As you sit here today, where's all that energy gone? You've had a one-year-old baby before. Oh, mate. Say no more. No, I mean, I think it's really important to... That's why I don't like that R word, because I am just moving sideways in different careers, whether it goes into coaching, whether it's punditry. I think it's really important to have quite a clear direction, but also quite conscious that I don't want to leap into a decision straight away of 100 % committing to that because if I do that and in six months I go, I'm not sure about that, that would not sit that comfortably with me.

55:56So I'm sort of starting a bit of that journey again of feeling what I really do enjoy, ultimately spending a little bit more time at home with the family and figuring out what that next thing is. But I've set a goal that basically from 2024, I'll be very clear in where I want to go and, you know, get back to it. Cricket's my love. I want to stay within cricket, whether that be full-time coaching straight away, probably not because of the extra travel and the time commitment. And actually, whether I'd be good enough to do that straight away, I'm not sure. But, you know, give my knowledge that I've gained over such a long period of time to younger cricketers to to people trying to make their way in the game because the more knowledge you get at a young age the the quicker you can grow and are you still doing the note making oh annoyingly so i went for a run actually and listened to dan carter that you were talking to and he said after he moved away from rugby he had a moment like two three months later he was like i've not written a journal i've not done the things i was doing that made me successful in rugby and i i was actually running i think it was last saturday and he said it and i stopped.

57:02I was like, I haven't, I've not written anything down since the oval finished. It's almost like I signed away from cricket and I thought, oh, sign away from my mental habits. Well, actually, that was a great realisation for me because I didn't write necessarily just about cricket. I wrote about feelings, thoughts, what I'm grateful for. So why have I stopped since I've moved away from cricket? So that was a great moment for me in the fact that, you know, why would I not spare five minutes a day to just continue the mindset that served me so well in the pressure of cricket where I've moved into the pressure of life and everything else.

57:39So yeah, I got back to that. Great. I love that. Right now, before we finish, I've got some of my quick fire questions that will sit at the end of this podcast episode for the audience that listen. And the first one is, what are the three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you need to buy into? for me consistency in mental prep is a big one like I just said three months or two and a half months without doing that that was a realization for me so that'll be a that'll be something that I will lead forward for sure pushing boundaries and that's quite a unique one but I think that that was something that I was really strong at in my career I think coaches maybe didn't always see eye to eye with me because I'd ask why and how a little bit.

58:25They'd come and say, right, I think we need to bowl fuller now. I'd be like, why? Give me some information as to why. And that always helped me move my game forward because I think if you're just a bit of a yes person and you take on every bit of advice all the time and take it as gospel, then what are you learning for yourself? What are you gathering for yourself and finding what really works for you. So I will always push boundaries on seniority a little bit, but I play devil's advocate a little bit. Why should I do that? And how is it going to make me better as a person and a player? Good, that's two.

59:03And the one I live by from Durban was consistent improvement, continuous improvement all the time. And I think with that, all of the top professionals I play with, Joss, Stokesy, rooty jimmy it's always their number one goal always their non-negotiable they're they're looking for something in their game in their preparation in their physicality within the change room that can that can improve them and i i i didn't do that for four or five months around the durban incident and i live by that ever since even up until what's your advice for a teenage Stuart just starting out on his journey? Yeah, I mean, we touched on it a little bit with the note-making, but I said I started at 26-ish, dabbling and took it more seriously into my 30s.

59:50But actually, when we talk in sport about experience, oh, the players got better with experience and the team's better with the experience in there. How could you grow that quicker? How can you grow the experience quicker? And I think if I had my time again at 15, 16, I'd start writing only three, It takes five minutes to write thoughts, grateful feelings. I start writing them down then and I would have probably learned how to express my feelings better. I would have learned where the consistencies in my mindset lay and what really spurred me on. So I did learn later that it was external things that got me going.

1:00:29Crowds and feeding off energy of teammates. At the start, I didn't really realize that. I probably enjoyed the crowd but didn't engage with the crowd that much. So I would definitely tell a 15-year-old Stuart to write more, to make a little journal. I've got something to look back on and learn from. Nice. What is your biggest strength? What is your greatest weakness? Can that be the same? Yes. Has anyone ever said it's the same before? Yes. I'm stubborn. Right. Really stubborn, which is a great strength. So that single minus, I will get this job done. I will do it. You know, I will not let you down.

1:01:15Set me a challenge and it will get done. But it also a weakness of mine and why coaches have probably found me niggly at times is takes a lot of convincing for me to change like that. Do you know what I mean? I need the information. I need data, facts, whatever. I'm not just going to be an emotional changer of something. If I think it's the right thing for me and someone else doesn't agree with that, it can be a bit like that. But I've got better with age on that. I think I was worse in my 20s. I was like, no, don't need that. I've got this. I've got that. So stubbornness is a great strength, but definitely has been a pretty decent weakness.

1:01:56How important is legacy to you? One thing that rang really true, the All Blacks legacy of leaving that shirt in a better place is a really good, really good thing. That definitely sat with me a lot of the time. And ultimately, when I did move away from the game, I could hang that shirt up in my spot and go, you know, I've played a little part in that shirt being in a better place, not just through individual performances, but also the last 15 months of leading what Baz wanted to get across. and I think legacy changes with every personnel and every style of coach and group but I feel proud that there's you know the basketball legacy I've played a part in starting that you know hard to deny is a legacy if it's an addiction you know what I mean there you go it's set there forever and the final question your one golden rule that you'd like to leave people with for living a high performance life.

1:02:50Ooh, golden rule. Challenge your limitations, but learn and stick by your strengths, I'd say. Be aware of what doesn't work for you and work on getting better at them. But also, if you've got strengths that you know work for you, stick by them and stick true to them. Brilliant. Listen, thank you so much for that. I think we've all watched from the outside and just gone, what a talented guy taking wickets and playing amazingly for England. So to sit here and get, you know, full in-depth answers into how you changed, how you adapted, how you worked on your mindset, the culture of the England team under Brendan and everything else is so fascinating for all of us.

1:03:28So for now, ladies and gentlemen, please thank the incredible Stuart Broad.

1:03:37So that's it then. I told you it was a really fascinating insight into the kind of guy that Stuart is and the things that he's done to get to where he got to in his career. And I think a reminder that you can't just stumble through. I love the fact that he was in his mid-20s when he realized that he couldn't just stumble through. And if you're thinking about a change of pace in your life, then maybe this is the conversation that might just give you that impetus and that drive that you need to go and do whatever it is that you want. And if you want more of these kinds of conversations, don't forget you can download the High Performance app.

1:04:12Just go to the App Store, search for High Performance. And our book, How to Change Your Life, is available right now. And if you're looking to change, honestly, it's a book that will guide you through the five key steps and help you get to a place that you want to be. Thank you so much once again for listening and sharing the lessons you're taking from these conversations. remember to remain humble, curious, and keep on searching for your own version of high performance. Thanks for listening.

1:05:30We'll be right back. you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.