The Accidental Cancer Discovery That Saved Anastacia (E437)

0:04Anastacia, welcome to High Performance. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you very much for being here. We should also say big thanks to the players of Postcode Lottery, who are helping to fund an amazing breast cancer charity called Breast Cancer Now. We're going to meet their CEO in a bit, but you're here to talk about your own breast cancer journey. And as I was reading through your story, I kind of got this sense that every time something in life tried to diminish you, somehow it actually had the effect of making you bigger and greater than you were before. So if you're cool with this, I would love to go through some of those moments that from the outside and maybe even from the inside felt like it was going to diminish you.

0:37Sure. And you proved the opposite. So before we talk about your story and what actually happened to you, I'd love to rewind to you at 34, millions of records being sold, arenas being filled, the career that you had fought so hard to make a reality, that amazing voice that caught everyone off guard when they heard you sing for the very first time. What was that Anastasia like? she was still quite shocked that people were very excited and wanted to embrace the voice and the look and the vibe I had because I didn't really feel I had someone to look up to that was that so for me it was um I I didn't I didn't know it would last you know or didn't think it would last And my real reaction to all of being what I was then was it was a fairy tale.

1:35It was just like, this is surreal. This is not how life is. Especially for me, it wasn't. I, you know, was collecting an unemployment check the year I got signed to Sony. Like, it just was, it was surreal. So you'd had to overcome a lot to even be that woman. You know, I don't know that I was overcoming. I was just being. I think everyone does that every day. You know, they try to pay for their this and try to pay for their that. I never really looked at it as anything different than what everybody else was doing. So I was the blue collar person. I was the normie that's just trying to go, am I going to pay the rent?

2:15Or what are we going to do? Just not do the laundry? Or we're going to go back and forth with the jeans a little longer before we wash them? like just doing what we do. The reason why I was very keen to have this conversation with you is that I think human beings don't actually realize the resilience and the power that we hold within until we're really tested. And then came a moment where you were really tested. So am I right in saying that you went to the doctor for a breast reduction? Yes. And I wouldn't have even had a choice to do that had I not gotten a deal that gave me some extra money to be able to be like, my mom got this and it really helped her back.

2:53And I had neck issues and I was very uncomfortable the size I was. So I wanted to be smaller and which still was a size that was very sizable. So I, I wanted it and I had some time that I could do this. And many of my friends were like, don't, don't, don't. Everyone, you know, would die for your size. And I'm like, well, good for them. They can go to the store or the doctor store and do that. And so it was really mainly just for my own, I would say health slash vanity. And I say vanity for being more comfortable in my body because I was quite uncomfortable that this was more of a distraction for me and I felt other people.

3:49So that's why I showed my midriff much in my life, because I felt that that took the attention away from the upper part. And it did. Everybody was like, wow, you have great abs. I'm like, you know, I'd be okay with that. Is that because you felt like, I don't want to be defined by. I just was very uncomfortable with that kind of attention. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think on my last appointment with the plastic surgeon, he said, I'd like you to go, you get your blood work. This is a normal surgery routine. And then I also want you to get a mammogram. And I was like, a mammogram? And he's like, yes, it's just to make sure your tissue is pristine.

4:30And because I'm a dork, I was like, pristine, clean, she's so mean. She's on the sea. I like did all these rhymes and I'll never forget it because of course. To the doctor. Yeah. And he, you know, laughs. I laugh, but I was like, I'm fine. I'm 34. I'm going to be so all good, yo. And word has it, it wasn't. And I went in and the appointment seemed to be this mammogram, then maybe one more mammogram. then we're going to give you an ultrasound. I knew it was, they found something. They didn't say anything because they were just doing, I guess, what they're supposed to do. They're not doctors in that way of oncology.

5:16So when I went into the, let's just say the doctor that was there, she said, I'm referring you to an amazing oncologist. and from what I just want a second opinion. It's not a second opinion. I think it's just like trying to let the woman leave without having total, you know, my life is over. Because when you go in, you just think you're getting a mammogram. And once you get that scary news, you know, until you see the doctor, doctor, you're not there with a friend usually with a mammogram. So my mom flew in. We went to the oncologist like two days later and he said, yes, you know, I can't tell you what stage it is or anything, but it's definitely cancerous.

6:07And I sort of just was trying to absorb it all more than anything and immediately kind of said, oh, well, I'm going to go public. and he was like whoa like telling me like you should think about that and I was like what do you mean well you made that decision like I said you know when I knew it I was like oh I'm definitely gonna go public I have my mom there I'm like you know this is I this is crazy and why was that so important I think if I pull back he told me some stats because I was confused at why I had it it's not in my family so that was when I was like oh I'm going public this is this this is stuff I didn't know.

6:52So that was, and he was like, oh, you got to be careful. And I said, well, why? Shared this because it's quite a hard thing. We don't know what stage you're in. We don't know what's going to happen. At this point, I think you should wait and, you know, kind of, I said, but I need to tell people what I don't know. And I'm not the kind of person that wants to sit on this information. You know, I'm like, Ooh, when it's convenient for me. So I think at that point I left that conversation and then thought that I don't know what stage I'm going to find. So I would like to have what I ultimately came in here for.

7:37I would like to have a breast reduction, but I also have to have the oncologist tell me what stage I'm in. So they're going to have to do their surgery. I would like to do it at the same time. It wasn't ever done in my plastic surgeon's office, but I had to go like to the hospital first, get the margins done, and then go to the plastic surgeon's office. And it was quite of a much of a much for the plastic surgeon, I have to say. And I was the first person he ever discovered cancer with after starting to do these checks because he started to be a lot more aware that younger women were getting it.

8:13So he was being proactive in his surgeries. There you go. You know, I did not know what stage I was. I had to wait longer. We had to get the doctors together. So I think it was like a month before I actually ended up having the surgery. And I had already really prepared my brain that I had it. And I was going to have cancer. How had you done that? Well, you know, you realize that you have cancer. I didn't know what stage. So I was going for the stage you lose your hair. Like I'm just saying, I could die, but also definitely lose my hair. We need to sort of be, then instead of feeling bad for myself, I'm like, well, I'm grateful.

8:58I have people that would be able to help me with, you know, wigs or pieces. And I'm really in a good place. I'm really blessed. This is, I am not a mother of three. I am not check to check. Like, I can handle this. And I was just so like, it's going to happen and I can handle this. I can handle this. And when the news came, my mother and sister on the phone were just so happy. And I was devastated because I knew I was getting the answer that every other woman that has a child and doesn't have the money, they were getting the other answer. And it was like a weird survivor's guilt. So your answer was that you were?

9:39I had early stage cancer and I didn't have to have chemo. And it left you feeling devastated. Oh God, I was crying. I just felt absolutely awful because I knew the other person that got that news was, it's just a ratio. I get the good news. Somebody's going to get bad news. You know, I was okay to get the bad news. Like I could handle it. I was ready for it. And I think that I prepared myself for it enough to go, if I got bad news, then I don't, maybe my heart was like, I don't feel guilty if that, that I got good news. But I didn't even think about the fact that I'd get good news or what that would do to me.

10:23And I was so shocked myself that I was feeling these feelings, you know, immediately I was like, no, you know, and they're like, no, they said you have good, like my sister. And they were like, no, it's okay. Everything's fine. I'm like, no, you just don't understand. Someone is out there, you know, they're going to have to do this by themselves. So interesting. And I just completely got the like, and my mom was like, all right. Okay, well, I get it. You're empathetic. I get it. Okay, but we can get through this. I said, no, I know we can. But then it was more of a reason for me to be like, I need to help.

11:03I need to be out there helping the woman out there that is terrified and feeling guilty, feeling less of a woman, all the things. It's not our fault we feel that way. We didn't give ourselves cancer. So once again, everyone's feeling guilt and bad, but it's not like intentionally we had any information to help us not. We've sat here and had over 400 episodes of the High Performance Podcast. And the thing that I will never lose is being in awe of the human brain and the way that it does things that we can't even predict and that your brain immediately took you to a place of empathy, of relating to other people that weren't going to be getting good news.

11:46But there was also a part of your story that I think is kind of heartbreaking. And I believe I've got this right, that before you had the chance to own your own story and go to the press, that it got leaked. Right. And I think that is a genuine tragedy. Yeah, that hurts. Someone is going through a deeply personal moment and it could have turned out very differently. Right. But equally, someone on a news desk somewhere saw this as their big moment to get a headline. And I just think. And it was, you know, I mean, it's no longer, it was the world news. They were doing this. They had ways of getting information.

12:19And to be fair, I went in as Anastasia Newkirk. I didn't go in as an alias, but I didn't even, you know, it wasn't, there was no radar that I should do that. When did you first become aware that it leaked? Oh, my record company called me and said, would you like to give, or my press, I don't know who were the people, but they said, would you like to give a statement? And I was like, I didn't even know that stuff was real. I'd never, I'd never given a statement, you know, in my couple of years of fame. So I was like, oh, I thought that was movie stuff. Her statement that she's giving quote unquote, like in my head, I was like, is this real?

13:00Like, okay, well, somebody write something because I don't know what to say. I really, I haven't even told a lot of the people in my life. I'm still just trying to figure out how and what to do. Because I found out on a Friday and Saturday night, they said they're leaking it Sunday. So I was like really caught off guard, you know, like the very closest I was able to probably get the words out and then because I had told some of my really close friends when I was in the mammogram office I have cancer and they're like you're so dramatic girl you know everybody has bat biopsies everyone has this oh and I was like no no there's an instinct they were like do you need water I was like they were just a little too oh like I'm so sorry for you without being that I was like I got the vibe that they felt bad you then had your control taken away as well at this point which I think which made me angry really obviously because I I'm not someone who doesn't share information so I felt quite um the way that you do when things come out that you probably haven't dealt with yourself yeah so those are your secrets.

14:19Those are your private information. I know a lot of people have gone through this in the industry. So I think why people try to split in relationships first before they announce it is it's hard enough. You're going through the split. You don't need like for a year and a half to be told you're splitting, you know, and then when you do split, I knew they were going to split. It just really cuts hard, you know? So yes, maybe you do have to fake the fake for the public when you're doing stuff because you're protecting your kids, you're protecting your brand and her brand or whatever's going on. There's so many layers to the way the press is, but I get it.

15:02The press are the press. They're journalists. They find out information. It's kind of hard to sit on it. But so I, that was my first and really only time I felt really sideswiped by anything in the press that I wasn't prepared for. And then, you know, had to sort of accept it. And that was when I was like, okay, I'm, that was also another decision of, I want to take this surgery this way. I want to do this. And they're all like, okay, this is not, I was like, I don't care. I was like, I want control of this now because I don't. That's exactly the point I was going to make. Right. You're out of control of the cancer.

15:43You're out of control of the diagnosis. You're out of control of the press narrative. The one thing you can control at this point is the treatment. Yeah. It's what happens next. Totally. Like the surgery itself. What I came here for, I'm doing it anyway. Mentally, what did that do for you to take that control? It did help. It did help me to take back a little bit, even though I knew we were doing the surgery together and it's unheard of and we don't really do this and we're going to have to get this approval and that approval. And I was like, great, do what you got to do. I want to know that if I have the worst diagnosis and I go into the grave, I can also say, but I got my breast reduction.

16:21Like I went in, I got what started this whole ball rolling. It was something I genuinely wanted, but I also look at it like a blessing. It also gave me the opportunity of finding something that was so early I was also able to live and then speak. So many blessings came from this experience in a huge way. But I look at life like that. I have that natural way that I don't like to look at life negatively, even if they give you a negative situation to start with, like cancers, not positive it's like how could i make this better well you came out with one of the most optimistic statements about a cancer diagnosis i think i've ever heard which is cancer gave the wrong girl cancer right which i think like that itself is so powerful and this idea of resilience so many of our community struggle with this they dm us they reach out they say like what you know it's not for a lack of wanting to be resilient but resilience isn't very easy and it's hard to build What do you think you can tell us about resilience that could help people?

17:30Well, what I have to say is you really have to go through the times you're uncomfortable. Right. Just understand it will pass. But those uncomfortable times from young life, teenage life, 20s, all these kind of things, all of these lessons will improve you. However, it all just magnifies each and every time you go through stuff. And at a certain point, hopefully, there is a part of your soul that goes, how can I not be the one that is taken down in this? That's what I did in my life. I just started going, how can I not do this again? How can I, when it was something that I could change, and when it was cancer and something you can't stop, how can I not be the person that says, why me?

18:28Because I've never really been the person that says, why me? And it could be because my grandfather was very that kind of guy. He was very optimistic-y, kind of everybody's friends. You know, he'd point to you and go, come here. You know, like Irish, like super, you know, my name is Hurley. and um and when he passed on his tombstone it says here lies ed hurley and why not his whole life was why not really no matter what happened why not you know if people are scared about something why not you know it's and you spent a lot of time with him as a oh yeah definitely all my vacations yeah optimism was definitely and he was all always the guy with the fin trying to give a little, you know, he just was like, he was the Don, no matter where he went.

19:18And I was like, I want to be the Don, but it felt like he made lives better. And I felt like he did, but that, I liked that. I liked that thing. And I think I took that in, uh, as a kid or as a person more and more in my life. Cause I also was built, I think with, okay, you know, like this kind of okay philosophy, like, great, wonderful, great. But also maybe putting myself second and all of those things and wanting to maybe help other people so much you didn't help yourself. So within my journey of life, I think I never lost faith and I don't mean it in a religious way, but I think it's really important not to lose the path of you can get through it.

20:10No matter what it is, it's not fun. Whatever you're going through that is making you sad, it's not fun. But I know it doesn't last forever, even when it is someone passing away. You need to keep their memory alive. You need to facilitate the life you lived with them more than the fact that they're not here because they are totally wanting that to happen for you. they don't want you to lose a whole piece of yourself all the time they're guilty they're gone you know you don't want that to be the way their legacy is and I think I'm really always inspired when I see a parent live for their child you know and however whatever ends up happening they end up having a force that pushes them to be you know she's with me or he's with me you know as Hurley was with you.

21:09Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Why not? Why not? Hashtag. It also sounds, there's a lovely phrase, which is that success leaves clues, right? And I get this feeling from you as well that we all live our lives trying to avoid difficult moments because we think they're going to be hard. And really what you've just said is you need to embrace those difficult moments because - Of course. Face them. All of us, everyone listening to this, watching this, me sitting here, you sitting there, all of the team around us, all of us have survived everything that's ever been thrown at us. Absolutely. We have to remember that and realize that actually every single time we get through something difficult, it's evidence we can deal with difficult things.

21:44So you had a body of evidence when you had that diagnosis. It's true. But at the same time, each and every time you face a hard situation, the next hard situation is a touch earlier, even if it's different. I swear, my words to all the blessings of God and all the universe, it's true. anyone who's gone through it is each and every little whoopsie doodle moment. My life is so pure now. Like hard things come up all the time, but most of the time the response is hashtag never dull. You know, it's like whatever's going on. I'm like, well, they threw a spanner in the mix. Okay. How are we going to get through that?

22:28Doesn't mean it was what I wanted, but to whinge about it and go about it and worry about it is to not move forward and get through it. It's to put a pause button on how to get through it. Like just understand it. Bummer. Got it. What's the best way? What's going to help? And it's a hard thing to teach yourself that because we are scared of a lot of things. We are apprehensive. People don't want to go to the doctor. People are, you know, terrified of being alone and all the things. But I think you've really got to be comfortable with you in order to go to the doctor. And you need to have a strong foundation also of people in your life, not to mention yourself.

23:17You can't expect the other person to be strong for you because that's expecting a lot for the other person. So I think really it all stems down to really getting to know yourself. and a lot of us don't like ourselves. You know, we're not good enough. We're not, you know, this enough. We're not rich enough. We're not established enough. We're not pretty enough. We're not all the things enough, but don't, and I was that person in my head. I didn't think I sounded great enough and I didn't look the right, appropriate this and I had no money or I had no this, but still at the end of the day, I was alive.

23:53You know, I just look at like, well, what can I look at? You know, I'm breathing. You know, when stuff goes, I'm still alive with cancer so far. You know, it's just the way to find what is the most, the only positive thing I can think today. You are the epitome of optimism. I really love that word. I love it so much. Yes, I love it. And it really is something to want to aspire to, is just living in that word and its true self. It's such a beautiful feeling. And I think it helps you to get to a point where you realize that life is experiential, right? life is about the experiences that you have.

24:29They don't have to be good. No. But having a mix of good and bad is certainly better than having none at all. Right. And you did then get a whole new experience 10 years later. Totally. When your cancer returned. Completely. Yeah, a year to the month. Like it was like, you know, perfectly timed. And what I will say is throughout those 10 years that I was sort of getting checked, getting checked, I did have my own conversation with myself that said, if you find it, if you are lucky enough the second time to find it early, what would you do? And I chose to go to a doctor and find out what a mastectomy entailed.

25:18Right. I wanted to know what to expect, and I was like, wow. Before the diagnosis came. way before. I wanted to sort of know if that was something I was willing to do. And it took, it definitely took me aback. I was like, okay, that's a lot. But then over time I started to go, but you know, the odds are cancer's gone. That's like a hundred percent odd. That's great. But if I have a surgery, there's always a third chance. So to me, I'm not a gambler. Some people are. And that is where they would make a different choice. I don't gamble. So if I'm lucky enough, once I say that word again, lucky enough to get an early detection, you can take them.

26:04And I think also I wasn't really, that was a body part I wasn't 100%, you know, saying was my favorite. So I was like, I'll do that because I know cancer's gone then. It doesn't hold me anymore. I know I won. And that was a big thing for me. It changed my relationship with everything that is in my control. Everything that you were able to control. This was control. Like I could make that decision if it was early because I can to say I would like to have a mastectomy. Now the doctors are like, but it's early. Like you don't need one. And I was like, yeah, but can you guarantee me the next time that it won't go to my lymph nodes?

26:49And they're like, well, we can't guarantee that. And I was like, I can guarantee cancer's gone. So that is a guarantee I want to take right now, even though the road is way harder. And obviously that is a very scary thing for, you know, men or women that are listening to this to contemplate. so when you first looked in the mirror after that operation was there a kind of a mourning for what you had lost or was there a sense of relief for what you'd lost which was the risk I didn't even get to look in the mirror they woke me up and said the surgery went great we got everything and I was like I was so excited because I was like F cancer you know I was like bye yeah don't let the whatever door is with cancer hit you in the cancer booty.

27:36Yeah, I was very excited to know that I won. When you have breast cancer and it's early, it's only in your breast. When it's stage one and two, that means it's gone into your body. So what I'd found out about that, which is why I want people to early detect and get it early, is because you are in a better place for every other organ, you know, and, and even getting, uh, chemo, you know, you're in a much better place cause it's localized. Um, but it's not always the, the, the easy road. Women will put themselves aside for children, you know, men for work and you just don't think you're going to get it.

28:23You never think you're the one it's not in my family. I think it's once again, it's the whole not in my family thing that I think throws people off. Yeah. Well, I certainly cling on to that. My mom and dad don't have cancer. So I keep thinking, I'll be fine. I'll be right. I'll make old bones like they're in their 80s. So it's going to be fine. And I think it's such an important message to share. Yeah. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. You know, we talk a lot on this podcast about resilience. You know, how do you bounce back from life's hardest challenges? Well, sometimes it's simply having the right mindset, but it's also about having the right support.

28:55And Anastasia, the amazing US singer, knows that better than most. She's faced breast cancer, not once but twice. First, aged just 34, at the very height of her music career, and then again, 10 years later, almost to the day. Since then, she's become a passionate advocate for breast cancer awareness, encouraging women to prioritise early detection and never ignoring the signs. On this episode, we discuss her journey of navigating cancer and the work of Breast Cancer Now, the UK's leading breast cancer charity. They help fund research and provide support to people navigating diagnosis, treatment and everything that comes after.

29:30And huge thanks to the support from the Postcode Lottery players because charities like Breast Cancer Now can continue making an incredible difference because of those players of the Postcode Lottery. To learn more about the impact Postcode Lottery players are helping to create, head to the link in the episode description. Postcode Lottery manages lotteries for 20 charities A minimum of 30 % of each ticket price goes to charity. 18 plus conditions apply. Not available in Northern Ireland. Right, let's do it. Here's Anastasia on high performance. One thing that struck me, kind of the moment you walked in with your beautiful dog and your iced latte, and I'm colorblind, but I believe those sunglasses or those glasses are orange.

30:12You're colorblind? Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Are they orange? Are they like a great? They're very orange. They're like when you see a cone, blocking the way in the street. That's the car. It's my glasses. Well, the reason why I wanted to talk about that was because you bring like a lightness and an energy and optimism and positivity and great humor, like outside in here being great humor. But I also wonder whether like at times that was used to mask what was actually going on. I think I've always, when I was younger, yes, I definitely used humor to get through stuff. Yeah. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

30:49I think that if you stayed with humor and didn't face it, then that's not okay. But I've always, my family's always been that way too, that we were kind of the fun family, like the family that would laugh in the face of adversity, much easier because my brother was quite ill and he's disabled. so we kind of had to make the best of it and Brian is let's say um a permanent second grader permanent eight-year-old but in an adult so he's like um a man child sort of in retrospect but out of the mouth of babes are my life is exists with a permanent child that says stuff and you're like, dude, that was amazing.

31:40What's the biggest thing that Brian's taught you? Ah, well, his innocence, his real true innocence is always there. But we joke, you know, and sometimes it's the boy way where we find the humor in it, where I'm like, did you possibly brush your teeth this morning? And he's like, maybe not. And I was like, well, how do you know? And I was like, because green fog is so coming out of your mouth. My eyes, ow, ow, you know. And he's like, okay, I'll go do it. But you've learned a lot from him. Yeah. His kindness, his innocence, all of that throughout my life just makes you want to be that too and not have that perspective of they were mean to me.

32:23I'm going to be mean to them. Like, no, it doesn't help. And then you see people that are less patient with Brian. You know, you start to be the sisters looking out for him. There's a real power in the innocence. There was a great psychological study done a few years ago where some researchers went into a classroom of three-year-olds and said, put your hand up if you can sing. And every single child put their hand up. I love this. Then they went to the classroom next door to 12-year-olds and said, put your hand up if you can sing. And four hands went in the air. So somewhere in the intervening few years, as human beings, we all added another part to the question, put your hand up if you can sing well or in tune.

33:03I love that. Brian sort of in many ways in your life represents the innocence where it's like, I can do anything. And life beats that out of us. And sometimes I try and remind people, find the you when you were young and innocent and you believed you could do anything. That's so true. Because it might not be correct, but it's a great way to live. Right. After the second diagnosis and the mastectomy and what happened next where, you know, you emerged back and you went back on tour, you released music again. And was it a different anesthesia after that experience, do you think? I felt far more knowledge on how I wanted things to be.

33:42I was able to keep everything a lot more silent, handle everything privately. And I'm in the second recovery place I had to be because I was in the hospital for 10 days. And then I went into a facility for like three weeks that was really helping me because I had such a hard surgery in my reality is that here I am, you know, knowing everything's okay, getting everything sorted. and then I see on TV Angelina Jolie announces that she went through it and I was like how beautiful that she's able to announce it herself I'm doing that too but just seeing that also just made me feel so much more empowered by another woman being able to know yes I have what I have and I've had my kids and I've done all the things because I know I'm that's the hereditary one and and she's like nope had to get rid of the things I know uh will not keep me alive for my kids so it was a beautiful thing to kind of be in the throes and slings and arrows of it and watch somebody successful um in their uh their transition of of surgery to announcement yeah you know um and and so I felt good when I made my announcement that you know it came back again everything's fine we are we're in a place where we don't have to to worry but I have a lot a long road ahead of me but the decision is the right decision for me how has it changed your outlook on life?

35:33I don't think it's changed my outlook. I think it made me become this person I probably wouldn't have become and been so invested in other people's lives. Like, I think I'm, you know, probably super intrusive to like give all this advice to people that, you know, may not even want it. I don't even know. It's a yearning of something I have to do is continue talking about it because cancer is not going away and different ages or different people will see something and they may miss this interview and then find another interview. So I don't mind talking about it at all. I think it's important for it to come from someone you've seen like that you're like, wow, she went through it or she can do that.

36:23And she's telling us all how she went through it. So I think it's just, it made me a stronger person, I'm sure, by going through it in the public eye. But I wouldn't have, I don't know what that's like any other way now. But I also am a Crohn's patient since 12 years old. So that is a constant for me. That's my life all the time. and I've lived with it so long, it just feels like I don't have it, but you know you have it when you have an attack, you know? And I think the more grounded you are and the more mindful and the more you express yourself as a person,

37:11your episodes or whatever, your outbreaks of having Crohn's is less. But I think the anxiety of Crohn's can make it worse. Then, of course, it makes the food worse. So it's a slippery slope. I just say to all Crohn's patients, are you in therapy? Just be in therapy. Talk to other Crohnies. Get out there and speak. Yeah. Because everybody wants to not talk about what's happening because it's, you know, not the conversation. parents only want to have that conversation with each other what's therapy done for you it's great it actually really did help me discover things within my self that I might not have discovered without like analyzing it so much and for so long over a period of time to also be completely honest with yourself.

38:15And when you break down some of the walls that have protected you from you, you're sort of left with who you are. And then it's saying, but you can also love you. Because if you love you, everything else is so much easier. And I didn't quite understand that. I never thought I didn't love me. But you have to do other things and other like the way a therapist can work with you is that you'd realize whether you truly love yourself or you don't. And I'm not a therapist, but I truly love my own company. I'm not the best person in the world, but I truly think I'm fun to hang out with myself, like by myself.

39:03um he thinks I'm hilarious and and I feel quite not alone when I'm alone I don't feel isolated I don't feel because I'm I I'm also love to be around people so it's both yeah like I never feel like one's better than the other I do need to decompress because of the business we're in so in order for me to give give give I need to sort of decompress that I know but if it was up to me I'd probably always be around people and have a very unsuccessful career because I wouldn't be able to sing but I think um I think it's really important to realize how much we put so much attention into others and even try to think we can make somebody else better but really we're not making ourselves better you know like looking internally it's so important and this this said This idea of learning to love yourself, I think is a really powerful place for us to get to in this conversation.

40:07Because, you know, we all do this thing where we think we look crap in our 20s and 30s. And then we look at photos and go, I look so good about that. Totally. I'm like, yeah. But, you know, you're someone who you were told, oh, you're not really right for the American music industry. And then you're someone who lives with Crohn since you were 12. You've had cancer twice. You've had a double mastectomy. You've done all of you've been through all of those things. and yet in a few weeks time you stand on stage at Wembley Arena and that body that has put you through the ringer at times is the thing that gets you up on stage in front of all those people.

40:40And I think it's remembering actually how powerful you are and you're more powerful for what you've been through, not less powerful. Yeah, I'm just, I don't know, I don't really think, the word powerful is kind of, to me sometimes it's overwhelming to think that because it can be exhausting. But I think, you know, we need to be resilient. We don't need to be strong and invincible. We need to be humbled and resilient and kind to others and all these things because all of that comes back full circle. And just like that, we're joined by Claire Rowney, the CEO of Breast Cancer Now. Thank you so much for coming to join us.

41:24We're going to talk about the work that you do as an amazing charity, but also the fact that your work is supported by the players of Postcode Lottery. Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. The players are right behind every bit of the work we do and have been for years and years and it's been absolutely fantastic to see what we've been able to do as a result of the amazing support of Postcode Lottery and the players. So, you know, over the years it's been more than£16 million they've donated to us which has made such a significant difference to what we're able to do. You've just been sitting outside listening to what Anastasia had to say about her story.

41:58What jumped out to you? Well, first of all, thank you. Because one of the things that really jumps out is that message about breast awareness. And it's so, so important. And kind of going and making sure that you're understanding what's going on for you and changes and so on is so important. So that was great. And I also just like, I've really enjoyed the positive slant and the things that you've been able to take away that you've really learnt from and have helped you. And I think that's actually kind of a side story to lots of people who have a breast cancer diagnosis, but people don't often talk about it.

42:31So thank you for that. It was brilliant. Oh, you're welcome. And you spent the best part of 20 years working within cancer charities. Yes. You knew the stats about breast cancer. Yes. And then had a mammogram yourself and got a call and you assumed the machine had had a glitch, right? Yeah, that's right. So I'd been CEO of breast cancer now for a year. worked in cancer charities for 20 years, knew all the stats, very healthy, exercise, you know, eat well. I was like, I'm totally fine. Went for my mammogram, obviously, as I should, as I was called. And yeah, I was recalled. And I thought, well, this is mad.

43:08And so I went back and had a mammogram, a second mammogram, had an ultrasound. And they said, oh, I don't think there's anything to worry about, Claire, but we'll give you a biopsy. And even when that was happening, I was thinking, well, you know, this is quite good because I'm going to know what a biopsy is like. You know, I still didn't kind of believe that I had breast cancer. Anyway, fast forward a couple of weeks and I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So it was a very peculiar situation to be in because there is this part of your brain that thinks, well, I'm going to be, so one in two people get cancer, one in seven people get breast cancer.

43:43And of course I thought I was going to be one of the ones that didn't um and so because you were living healthy because i was living healthy right and because i guess people don't necessarily think it happens to them but yes it happened to me it happened to me so it happened last year and it was caught at stage one which i've heard you talking about um which was great and i had a lumpectomy which is a little more than a tiny lump and then um yeah radiotherapy and done you're okay now yeah good healthy thank you so So what should the message be then to the people that are listening to this who have heard your story that this was picked up on a routine mammogram before breast reduction or your story where you also went for a routine mammogram with no symptoms or nothing, you had no idea.

44:29But was your routine mammogram at a certain when NHS went right? That's my big issue with mammograms is they really should lower the age. Now, I'm just going to say corporate and health coverage, the amount of women that don't get cancer through a mammogram is a very high number. So they just can't give every woman at 35 or 30 a mammogram for free because it's not going to make their overall shareholders happy. Knowing this, I then tell women in their 30s that you need to do it. Now, I know women in their 30s are, they don't have the excess cash to throw around in a mammogram. They have to go to a private clinic for that.

45:18So I said, okay, I'm now creating a plan that on your birthday, pick a birthday, and that will be your self-care birthday. And you tell your closest friends, I'm going to go get a mammogram this year, but I need to save up for it. And I don't know if I'll save everything. So no drinks, no party, no birthday presents. If you can give five pounds, if you can help me with self-care, that would, you know, then it's all I would ever want for my birthday. So because I designed this amazing idea, I've had many people come back to me and be like, and I got a purse, makeup, and I don't know. And they were just so thrilled that the fear, because also their friends knew, so they had support.

46:08And then other friends went. And yes, there were a couple that found early cancer. And they were like, this is great. You know, not this is great, but it's early. And we would have never thought of going. Just check it out. It's like a dental appointment. You know, just go. Because how this is happening is so sporadic. and there's no rhyme or reason to how we get cancer, you know, especially the non-hereditary cancer. So I kind of gave the young girls an idea that I know you want to buy a bag and this and that and you don't want to put that money aside. But, you know, ask for birthday, you know, funds for your self-care and then everyone knows you're going.

46:52So God forbid, then they're all there to catch you if you fall. Yeah. So it's a really, it's a design DIY Anastasia. An unusual birthday gift. Very unusual. But you know what? It's kind of the best thing you could do for yourself and the people that love you. Yeah. And then, you know, then you have that assurance that you feel like you can walk through life a little bit stronger, not being scared of that word. Yeah. You know. I mean, what I think I'd add to that is so around one third of breast cancers are picked up through mammograms. Two thirds are from self-checking. So like actually, particularly for younger women, the most important thing from an early age is to get to know your breasts.

47:37Yes. And it's touching them, looking at them. But I was quite like dense. Large, and so you wouldn't. So I, there would have been no, and when I found mine, I wouldn't have had a lump. Yeah. Calcifications. Those are salt sprinkles. So when I speak about you can check yourself all you want, but yes, lumps you can find. And then that's very serious. It's either non-cancerous or cancerous or whatever it is. But early detection is not about checking yourself. And that is the only thing that I go against kind of what the doctors want to make sure you check yourself all the time. Yes. But at 30, start to understand that.

48:17A mammogram, if you can. A mammogram if you can. But also check yourself as well. Check yourself all the time. Because that can still save your life. 100 % it can, yes. Especially if there is something more aggressive. You know, I mean, you don't want to just live there with this thing that could get even more aggressive. So absolutely. Yeah, both I think are really important. Vital. Yeah. And it's amazing that Anastasia comes onto podcasts like this and speaks in the way that she does, very open, very free, very honest. but there will still be minoritised communities and other people that conversations like this don't reach.

48:51So what's the secret for you at Breast Cancer Now to try and get these messages in front of everyone? Yeah, it's a really good point and it's a really important part of our strategy. So we know people, particularly from particular ethnic groups, are slower to get diagnosed, have less successful treatment and have less good outcomes. And there is a really complex picture underneath that. and what we're doing is looking at screening so screening attendance because that's really varied amongst different communities looking at cultural taboos so sometimes just the simple act of actually self-checking never mind going for a mammogram can be very challenging yes so cultures and then actually training within the system so a black woman for example is usually has to present to her GP more frequently than a white woman before they'll get referred for breast checking.

49:43So there are some sort of systematic problems, and then there are some cultural problems. And then there are some breast cancers that are just more prevalent in different communities. So triple negative breast cancer, for example, is much more prevalent in black women than it is in any other ethnicity. Right. And I think the saddest part when I hear that is if it's more prevalent, why do they have to ask more but that is the society we live in and I feel for the community when that's the case it just breaks my heart and I but I also think artists like you who share your story and talk about breast awareness and talk about mammograms and do all of that actually often transcends sort of racial groups and that's so powerful it definitely will but once again you're at that forefront where you say yeah the woman will go but then you know will they will they have to call 20 times where the white woman only has to say it once which is sorry i'm a little affected by that yeah and i really want to talk about postcode lottery yes because the the players of the postcode lottery allow you to do the amazing work you're doing so we want to say thank you to them but also the fact that your ambition is that by 2050, everyone diagnosed lives and lives well.

51:03Yes, indeed. But you can't do it without that money. We can't. So we rely absolutely entirely on the UK public every year to be able to do the work that we do. And Postcode Lottery have been a really fantastic long-term supporter of ours. So they've given us over£16 million to date. And what's brilliant about the players of Postcode Lottery is they keep turning up, they keep showing support for us. And what it means is we can really rely on them to be able to kind of plan for the future and do future work. Really, yes, that's true. Because they're so consistent in donating to us. So they really are a fantastic partner.

51:39And, you know, it's great, A, that they give us this money and then B, create opportunities like this for us to talk about breast cancer, breast cancer awareness and so on. And if someone is listening to this conversation and maybe they're worried about something, doesn't feel right, they might have found a lump or they just got that sixth sense that things aren't perfect what would you both like to leave them thinking about you go first well i just would say you know nothing is the end unless it is the end and you you still are there you still have a full control of saying what what should i do now let's look at the let's look at the whole picture you know um It's never the end when you hear that.

52:23You need to be around people that you believe are your safe, safe place people because they're going to be the ones that you feel you could be the most vulnerable with. And that means angry or sad. You know, those are the feelings that are part of hearing the word cancer. You have mixed emotions about it because it's just so stopping stuff for however long it is for you. You're going to feel these feelings, but try not to let them take over you because then that means cancer is winning. So the more angry you get, the more cancer wins. The more upset you get, cancer wins. But you have to let those feelings exist, but then go, okay, that's enough cancer.

53:11That's enough cancer. you pull that back and be like, I gave you enough tears. That's good. I get, you know, but you will ebb and flow that way, but don't allow it to, to win and take that good energy from you. Yeah. I'm going to be much more practical and say, go to your GP. Yeah. Oh, I don't mean not go. I did not mean not go. I just meant from like a spiritual, realistic point of view. It's like, what do you do? Don't, don't throw it all aside. No, it's completely right. But, oh, when you get a diagnosis, how do you get one? Is that what you asked? No, I think your advice is perfect. If someone is worried, then looking after the spiritual side is vital.

53:51Oh, I thought when they get a diagnosis, what? But if they have found something that they're not happy about, then... Oh, absolutely. I'm sorry, I didn't... I know, I thought it was a really good answer. That would have been my first thing is go to the doctor and... And do all the spiritual stuff. Yeah, and then give all the good stuff, lollipop. But also to that younger woman point, you know, one of the things, so when you have a lump or a bump or something that's changed and you go to your GP, you are entitled to be referred to the breast unit. And sometimes younger women don't get referred.

54:23And so, you know, another message for younger women is be insistent. Yes. And go and see, go and get a second, you know, opinion if you don't get referred. Yeah, don't feel that they can talk you into it's not a problem. be more if it was your child if it was your mom would you just pass it over or would you be a little bit more forthright do the same for you because sometimes women's voices can be silenced too you're fine you're fine yeah and we trust and we trust what we're gp exactly exactly so you're right well between the two of you we've solved all the problems there you go Claire, thank you so much.

55:04Congratulations for all the work that you do. And I'm so pleased to see that you're well and you're here with us. And Anastasia, the same message. Great to see you smiling, looking happy, looking healthy and blow the roof off Wembley Arena. It's going to be so much fun.