The Habit That Stops Self-Doubt Controlling You

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1:52And also, I think that's where self-esteem comes from. because if I go out and have a bad show somewhere, I go, I'm a person who now has a toolbox and I still didn't have what I needed tonight or I made a mistake or I need to remind myself, go back to this thing you learned so long ago. I now don't go home saying I'm a bad comedian. Welcome to the Essential Habits of High Performance where we explore the daily practices, the mindsets and the teachable moments that shape extraordinary lives and leaders. Today, we're exploring something unexpected. A tool not from sport or business, but from therapy.

2:32Unconditional positive regard. Why does it matter? Because it's one of the most powerful habits for reducing fear, increasing connection and unlocking real growth. In today's episode, we'll explore this practice that began in therapy rooms, but has got powerful applications far beyond that. We'll look at how our guest, the writer and comedian Sarah Pascoe, uses it, not just to survive tough nights on the stage, but to manage her inner critic, connect more deeply with her audience, and bring out a best when the pressure is really on. I'm your host, Damien Hughes. I've worked as a visiting professor of organisational behaviour, I've advised World Cup winning coaches and business leaders, and I've co-hosted this podcast for over five years.

3:20Above all though, I'm someone who wants to understand how high performance actually works, so we can all learn to apply it in our own world. Stand-up comedy is probably one of the most intense high-pressure environments a performer can step into. There's no script to hide behind, no teammates to share the burden. It's just you, a microphone, and a room full of strangers who expect you to make them laugh, instantly, consistently and confidently. Failure isn't theoretical, it's immediate, it's visible and it's very, very personal. And yet somehow there are individuals who don't just endure that environment they actually thrive in it.

4:04And our guest today is one of them. Sarah Pascoe has spent the last 14 years building a remarkable career in one of the toughest corners of the creative world. Now you might have seen her on panel shows or read her books or watched her sitcoms, but put yourself in service shoes when she started. You step out onto a stage in front of a couple of hundred strangers. The lights are bright, too bright. You can't see the faces clearly, but you can feel the weight of their attention. Now picture the first joke. It's one you might have tested, one that usually lands well, like this gem from her stand-up, where she says, I'm not saying I'm bad with money, but I once checked my bank balance and the ATM just laughed.

4:47You deliver it with energy and with perfect comic timing. And then, nothing. Not a chuckle, not even a polite exhale. Just silence. You've still got 59 minutes to go. This isn't a nightmare. It's a regular occupational hazard for any stand-up comedian. and Sarah Pascoe knows that scenario all too well. Nothing burned deeper into her memory than one of those early performances. The infamous gig to absolute silence. And I followed a dog jumping up at a balloon. Now the mistake I made was if they like this dog jumping at a balloon imagine how much they're going to like me with my words, my opposable thumbs.

5:33She steps up to the mic with confidence. She had her material ready. She'd prepared. what she hadn't accounted for was what came before her. Her dog literally bouncing up and down for laughs. What followed was five long minutes of silence so thick it almost had its own texture. And in those moments a crucial thing happens. Not only are you bombing, but you know you're bombing. You can hear your own voice echo back at you unnaturally loud in your own head. Sarah calls this low performance and she doesn't say it flippantly. She says it as someone who's learned slowly, sometimes painfully, how to respond not just to success but to the sting of public failure.

6:18To treat those moments not as indictments but as opportunities to adapt, to learn and eventually to even laugh about them. Perhaps most powerfully of all though, she learned to treat herself with compassion when those moments happen. and here's what separates the high performers from the rest of us it's not that they avoid failure it's about how they choose to relate to it she didn't walk away thinking that makes me a bad comedian she reframed it and also i think that's where self-esteem comes from because if i go out and have a bad show somewhere i go i'm a person who now has a toolbox and i still didn't have what I needed tonight, or I made a mistake or not.

7:02I need to remind myself, go back to this thing you learnt so long ago. I now don't go home saying I'm a bad comedian. That shift from self-blame to self-curiosity is a subtle one, but it's everything. And it's powered by the habit that we're exploring today. Unconditional positive regard. Sarah used to play a dangerous mental game. Before gigs, she told us that she'd imagined the worst. I used to have this horrible thing where I used to imagine with tour shows that half of your audience had been dragged there by someone. A really negative thought would go, men, dragged by wives, they don't think women are funny.

7:40That mindset, believing that you're already rejected, shuts down any chance of connection before it even starts. It's like trying to swim while you're bracing yourself to drown. So instead, she learned to flip the script. Before stepping on stage, she'd remind herself. And actually, I have to tell myself really wonderful things, like, I'm so lucky to do this job. I want him to be here. No one's making me be here. Sometimes I tell myself, I don't need the money. I don't need the money. I'm here because I love it. Then she'd extend that attitude towards her audience. Why are you scared of them? You're in love with these people.

8:15Even if she didn't know them, she practised imagining the very best in them. People who'd left the house on a rainy night, people who'd given up the sofa and Netflix, people who'd maybe even arranged childcare just to be there. Now that is unconditional positive regard in action. Now it's easy to laugh at this stuff, but research shows that this works. Now let's dig a little bit deeper into it and remember, in the show notes you'll find the links to the studies and research which I reference.

8:48Let's go back for a moment, way back to the 1950s. to a quiet revolution in how we understand growth, behavior and human potential. At the center of it was a psychologist named Carl Rogers. What Rogers gave us was a simple but profound idea, and it's an idea that still underpins everything from modern therapy to parenting, coaching, education and even high performance. Rogers called it unconditional positive regard, and modern research keeps confirming the power of it. Let's start in sport. In a 2023 study published in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, researchers looked at young athletes and found something fascinating.

9:34Those who perceived their coaches as empathetic and accepting, rather than focus purely on performance, were more motivated to stay in their sport long term. They tended to recover faster from setbacks, and they were more eager to take on fresh challenges, even when it meant risking failure. In short, young people weren't afraid to try because they didn't feel that they were disposable. Now, shift that philosophy to the classroom. Educational researcher Alex Chevrinvenet has written extensively about the power of unconditional positive regard in trauma-informed teaching. She argues that when students, especially those from difficult backgrounds, feel unconditionally accepted by their teachers, it changes everything.

10:22They become more resilient, more curious, and more willing to engage with discomfort and difficulty. Not because school gets easier, because they feel safe enough to fail. And that sense of psychological safety, well, it doesn't stop at the school gates either. In the workplace, a study published in the British Journal of Management explored the impact of regardful relationships on employee motivation. The researchers found that when people felt accepted and respected by their colleagues, not just for what they could produce, but for who they were, they were more satisfied, they were more energized, and they were more likely to go above and beyond their basic job role.

11:04Again, in other words, when people feel secure, they give more, they dare more. Because it turns out, fear of failure isn't what drives high performance. Freedom from fear is what does. And that's why leaders who practice unconditional positive regard, whether they're coaches, teachers or managers, often unlock more potential than those who lead through critique and control. And it's also why Sarah Pascoe's story is so powerful. Because she learned how to offer that same regard, not just to her audience, but to herself as well. And that's what helps her walk back on stage, even after the silence.

11:43That's what lets her reframe failure, not as a proof of how inadequate she might be, but as part of the creative process. Unconditional positive regard isn't about ignoring performance, but it's about creating the kind of environment where people can actually reach their potential, because they're not terrified of falling short. And that, more than anything, might be the essential habit of high performance. So the next time you fall a bit short, whether that's on stage or in a meeting or just when you're looking at yourself in the mirror. Give yourself a moment to pause and ask yourself, what would happen if I didn't rush to blame?

12:24What if instead you offered yourself a little bit of unconditional positive regard? Because as Carl Rogers proved and as Sarah Pascal showed us, the best version of you doesn't come from being punished, it comes from being believed in. So what's this week's challenge and the habit we can all take from it? It comes down to three powerful practices that any of us can apply, whether you're on a stage, in a boardroom, or simply just trying to show up a little bit better in your daily life. The first habit is start with yourself. Before a high-pressure moment, whether it's a presentation, a performance, or even a first date, remind yourself, I chose to be here.

13:07You weren't forced, you stepped forward. And that shift in mindset from fear to ownership can transform how you experience a moment. You're not trying to survive it, you're part of it and you are allowed to enjoy it. 2. Assume positive intent. Expecting criticism might feel like a shield, but it often becomes a barrier. Instead, try imagining the best in people you're about to face. Not because they're perfect, but because you perform better when you're not on the defense. Lead with trust and give yourself the freedom to connect with others. Three, reframe failure. If something doesn't go your way, resist the urge to declare, oh, I'm bad at this.

13:54Instead say, I didn't have the right tool tonight, but I'm going to learn. That is the mindset of high performers. They don't deny failure. They harvest it. They don't collapse under it. They carry it forward with them. These aren't tricks. They're habits that build trust. Quiet, repeatable, everyday actions that help you become more courageous, more creative, and ultimately more effective. Because real high performance starts with believing in yourself, even when the crowd might be silent. so this week I'm giving you an invitation to try it to try practicing unconditional positive regard now I'm going to be joined by our brilliant producer Will who's been with us here on the podcast since the very start and we're going to have a listen to some of the other great lessons which Sarah shared with us these include a chilling story about a fellow comedian a lesson we can all learn from monkeys and how finding the bright spots even on your worst day is an essential trait of all high performers.

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17:08I remember coming up to you after we finished this record and asking you how you think it went. And what did you say? I said that it was one of my favorite interviews we've ever done. Ever done? Yeah, I still stand by that. and part of it though is because I've seen Sarah on the TV and she can be quite whimsical and almost like a bit of a spiky comedian at times making her observations so I was sort of braced for her to come in and be a bit dismissive of our questions you know like what are we answering this shit for but she wasn't, she was the opposite she was really thoughtful she was really considered and she's prepared for it you know like she's put a lot of time in answering the first question of what is high performance for you and I just found that sort of considered thoughtful approach really refreshing that when we asked her a question I sensed she was really listening to it and then responding to the questions she'd been asked not the ones she wanted to answer Being thoughtful about it is probably the really good way to describe it because I was trying to find the word actually but you're entirely right You know, I think sometimes with comedians we can expect them all to be a certain way or all to be gags and tell jokes on there and it really isn't that but she really really gave a considered approach to how she started her career how she got over the bits of bombing and all the kind of lessons behind that and yeah it was a great one yeah brilliant and it was the candidness as well that she wasn't just presenting this as like this has been a journey from starting on small shows to eventually headlining big arenas she was talking about the failures she was talking about the the self-doubt she was talking about the missteps that she'd made along the way and that actually made it so much more relevant and practical for anyone listening to it and that's why i think exploring some of those stories in this bit is where hopefully it'll entice people to go and listen to the whole of this chat i can't think of anything worse and more high pressured and daunting than doing stand-up comedy genuinely i feel like the idea that someone can get up on stage have to be funny coherent make people laugh and if it didn't go well what that would do so i'm almost in awe of these people yeah because like again you look at some of the like the big comedians now that have developed a reputation they're presenting to an audience that knows who they are they know the kind of humor it's the ones that go on the small circuits where nobody's ever heard of you before you know or people might be drunk or a bit leery and you've still got to make a connection with them.

19:38That, to me, is an amazing skill. What do you want to listen to first, Amo? Well, there was a chilling story that Sarah told us about one of her colleagues that had always desired success and who actually achieved it. Let's listen to her explain what followed. I know someone who won the Edinburgh Award. So it used to be called the Perrier, biggest award. And also, it was everything he wanted, right? So he practiced the speech for years in the bath. He was so focused on, because that's when I know I'm good enough, I've arrived, people value me, everyone knows I'm good. So it's the epitome for lots of people in comedy.

20:18And he won it and it was astonishing. It was astonishing. He got the thing he wanted and then seeing him months afterwards, as sad as he was before, as depressed as he was before, in a way it was worse because he had no point that was supposed to, He then knew nothing would ever be okay. It wasn't going to be an amount of people in the audience. It wasn't going to be an amount of money. And it wasn't going to be this award that was everything. And he said, sometimes I stand in front of the mirror and I hold it up. And I say to myself, you won it. You won it. And he doesn't feel anything. It's heartbreaking.

20:47But there's lots of, we all know people who have that, where you think they play stadiums, they've got millions. I think, especially people who don't have money, which I didn't have. It's hard to feel sorry for rich people, isn't it? it's like okay we'll go and be sad in the Bahamas there like because you think it's an answer so when you meet people who have everything you think you want and they're as sad as you or sadder you then go okay there's another journey yeah that story is definitely something we can all be guilty at times just thinking that there's one event or some one award or one moment it will change everything in fact it's something that we've heard repeatedly from a lot of high performers who came on, they didn't feel much.

21:29Yeah, but also as well, it's the danger of sometimes putting all your eggs in that basket, you know, like someday when I pay my mortgage off and then I'll be happy or someday when my kids are grown up, then I'll be content or when I've got this amount of money in the bank, then I'll feel relaxed. And we often get there and realise that it's not what you thought it was going to be. So that willingness to invest in learning your craft and enjoying the journey, not just being fixated on the outcome. Yeah, I've got so many names now coming to my head. Anyone from Johnny Wilkinson at the start, even around through to Dan Byrne, we had on recently, and how that wait for that cup final, he was like, it didn't feel much.

22:09It wasn't like I thought it was going to be. Yeah, 100%. And I think there's a lesson there for any of us in life that you've got to enjoy the process and not be fixated on the outcome. Right, let's go to the next one. I think you teed it up before about the story, a fascinating story about a monkey. Yeah, well again, hearing sort of Buddhist wisdom shared to us by a contemporary comedian is not on your playlist today, but it now is. Let's listen to Sarah explain it. So this is, I think it's from Buddhism, but it's about how they used to trap monkeys in the jungle. Do you know this one? So there's a jar, so it's got a thin neck on the vase and then they put sweets inside.

22:48And the monkeys put their hand inside to get the sweets and then they're stuck. Right. And the message is, if you want to be free, all you need to do is let go. And I think that's so massive because a lot of time when we wind ourselves up, actually if you think, oh, I could just care a bit less. Oh, it's like, it happened. It happened. I'll try better. I'll try more. I'll try again. I'll forgive myself. Sarah Millican had a thing about bad gigs because we get, obviously, it's a horrible feeling having a bad gig. And she had a rule, has a rule. I think it's like, okay, you're allowed to feel bad until 11 o 'clock at night.

23:22So you can feel bad on the way home. but by the time you go to bed, it's done, and tomorrow's tomorrow and it's another gig. Yeah, the power of letting go. Yeah, and sometimes it's all about the example of not caring so much and actually just focusing on enjoying the experience that you're in rather than thinking that I've got to achieve this, I've got to do this, I've got to hold on to this. I remember the writer Jim Collins talks about bright, shiny objects that we surround ourselves with in life, whether it's a car, the house, your bank balance, or all these things that then they trap us, like the monkey with our hand in the jar, they trap us into thinking that I've got to hold on to all this stuff.

24:03And sometimes just appreciating the simpler things in life actually brings us far more happiness. And the last clip we're going to reference, this is the one that stuck out most to me. Because? Because I think, you know, as I said, the daunting prospect of bombing on stage but for her actually what it taught her and knowing actually that i will come back and this is what i still want to do it i'll let you explain it more but that was the line actually in it because i can kind of picture that that almost like horrifying situation but knowing that you found your thing and knowing i want to come back and do this again well who you are is not what you do you know i think you can still like remember matt fraser the world crossfit champion telling us that you don't have to be good at something to enjoy it you know and i think this is the point that at some stage every expert has been a beginner when they weren't at that level of competence but if you can actually enjoy something that gives you the grit to stick at it the perseverance to keep practicing till eventually you do reach a level of expertise and her willingness to make notes to be sort of self-critical and to do that level of self-analysis it's something that any of us can do whatever task or endeavor we want to get better at it let's listen to sarah explain it hearing your own voice really loud in your head while you're also talking have you ever had that yeah and isn't that a horrible feeling because it makes you feel insane and then you're going how's my mouth still talking while i'm shouting at myself up here oh awful but on the train home as I wrote my notes up about how it had gone and I thought about it the next few days not at any point did I not want to do comedy again I knew this was a massive learning experience but I knew the biggest thing I'd learned was oh it can feel like that and I still want to do it now that I know that can happen I still want to do this job she kept notes after every gig that she did writing down all the little things from obviously how the jokes land and how they went but what was the audience was like what was the room like and she just had a reference for every single show she did.

26:10So it became more than a feeling. It almost became like analytical. Exactly. And so she wasn't just relying on pure emotion. There was a degree of logic that was being applied. And we've seen that in interviews with Mo Gilligan when he spoke about going, sitting in the back row of theatres that he performs at. So try and imagine what it'd be like to watch himself on stage that evening or John Bishop telling us about how he deliberately moves a chair to a different place when he first walks on stage to just get the audience's attention without me even needing to say a word. These are people doing like a high-wire act, but actually understanding the process of how they can get from one side to the other in one piece.

26:52Yeah, and as she said, everyone starts from a place of low performance to get to the high performance bit. Maybe the people that we mainly speak to on this podcast. But everyone starts from a point of, no, I'm not good at this. Yeah, definitely. But if you can go out there and let's circle it back to this essential habit, which is unconditional positive regard, convincing yourself that while you might be a low performance, everybody out there wants to see you do your best, wants to see you succeed, wants to have your back. That then gives you the freedom to go and try to fail and more importantly, to learn from this experience.

27:30And if you've enjoyed listening to today's episode and you recognize there's somebody that maybe could do with a bit of unconditional positive regard in their lives, why not pass it on and suggest that they give this a listen as well? Thanks so much for joining us today on The Essential Habits of High Performance. I'm Damien Hughes, and I'll see you next time.

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