The Hidden Skill Behind High Performance

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health.

0:31talk about the ultimate soft skill for high performance. What is the ultimate soft skill? Well, before I did that, I should admit that I came in with an alternative title, which was don't be a dick. But I felt that was too aggressive. And also I felt it didn't instruct people of, well, what do I do instead? So is not being a dick the ultimate secret to high performance? And we should end the episode here. We could do, or we could delve a bit deeper and say, actually, it's about kindness. it's that hidden superpower that all our high-performing guests have told us about whether that's starts by being kind to themselves when mistakes happen when cock-ups occur or when setbacks are inevitable along the way you start by understanding and being empathetic to yourself and in turn that gives you the capacity to be able to do that to other people and lift other people up as well so kindness is king kindness is key in a world where you can be anything be kind We see all of these phrases banded about, right?

1:29I suppose it leads me to two questions. I mean, it's only recently we have Phil Jones on the show just a few weeks ago where the challenges in his career were defined by people not being kind. We asked, is social media abuse for footballers improving or getting worse? He said it's getting worse, no question. So we know we're in a world where people are being less kind than ever before. We're also in a world where I think if I ask people to list out their most important traits for high performance, kindness is unlikely to be at the top. So why is it getting worse and why are we not talking about it enough?

1:59You know, I know you've trawled through the archives to find some clips and we'll listen to them in a minute, but I wouldn't say it's like a key tenet of high performance that we talk about every single week on the show. No, it isn't. But you're right. I think that one of my pet hates and despise it is people writing that, be kind, and then you see them on social media a week later, abusing a footballer for missing a chance or, you know, remember after Caroline Flack died and there was this whole thing about oh we need to be kind to celebrities and then you can find plenty of examples of people then looking to give them a kick in online afterwards so I think it's an easy thing to say it's not always so hard when emotions are running high to be able to live it through but I think there's a trend of our high performers that that's why we call it the ultimate soft skill because they don't necessarily talk about it but they demonstrate it i remember i've been friends with kevin sinfield for example for a long time and i remember one of kevin's great skills was lifting other people up around him and he told us when he first came on the podcast he learned to do that at 11 he said he didn't get picked in a trial game and he worked out why did i not reflected on it and he went everyone else is faster fitter stronger better than me so what can i bring to it i'm going to be the guy that encourages others lifts them up and by definition i'll be an integral part of the team now he's doing himself a disservice in many ways but that became the ultimate skill that people now recognize made him such an iconic leader at Leeds Rhinos and subsequently with the England Mugby Union team so it's a trend that I've seen for a long time and I think it's one that we can all practice when we become aware of it we can learn to practice it and get better at being kind and I think when we go through the archives we've got quite a diverse collection of guests people from across a range of different industries people that you wouldn't necessarily associate the word kindness with some of their exploits but it's there it's like the it's the beating heart that runs through all high performers joe hart was a really good example because he was a guy at the the apex of his career he was seen as a strident confident leader and then when he hit his first speed bump in his career when manuel pellegrini dropped him he was sort of starting to doubt himself and he had a new goalkeeping coach who was asking him to do something different and Joe talked about how he resisted that and it was one day his friend gave him just really interesting tip he said why don't you lean in to the person that you've obstructed in and rubbing up against should we listen to the way he explained it I'd had a new goalkeeper coach at the time Xavi who's still at Manchester City and we were he came in with a new style a new style that he was really keen on and he'd never played i was like this isn't going to win well because you've seen how i am at that time in my life i'm like well i think this is what's best for me anyway so we're but and clashing three months into the season jamie went who's your new goalie coach told him xavi he went tell me about xavi and i went we'd been passively aggressive working together we'd been working together fine like no one would have known but i know when i get on with someone how i behave and he probably is the same asked him for a coffee next thing i know i find out about his family find out about how he works he's asking me how I'm working shoulders are dropping I'm saying look I know I'm out of the team at the moment I'd love to get back in and what your style is I'd love it if we could just kind of bring a little hybrid version I can do that for you not a problem next minute we're working together in and then some of his ideas are great some of them are still used to this day so that's the former England goalkeeper Joe Hart now I know you like this idea of leaning into people jake absolutely what have you learned on that well i've learned from personal experience that the amount of abuse that comes my way on social media is far greater than that that comes my way on the street in fact it's never happened not once not once has anyone ever been next to me at the cinema in a restaurant and said the things that get said to you so what's what's going on well it's distance right the more distance you have to someone the more comfortable you are feeling you can abuse them because you feel that if you're distanced from it so are they I promise you now, social media abuse aimed at anyone feels like someone has said it to your face.

6:18So we have to get rid of this idea that distance makes a difference. It absolutely does not. So how do we bridge that gap? Well, exactly as Joe Hart said, we lean into people. So I remember when we had Rangan Chatterjee on the show and he said he'd spoken to Joe Wicks. And Joe Wicks had said to him, if someone acts in a way that you don't like, just be grateful you haven't had their challenges or their traumas. Because if you'd have lived their life, you'd act in exactly the same way. And I suppose I use it a lot. Like whenever someone has a pop at me or even like a simple thing, like someone cuts you up in traffic or bibs their horn or pushes, barges past you with the shopping trolley in the supermarket.

6:55It's so easy to get triggered. It's so easy to be bothered by a person that you work with who always just seems to want to trigger you, right? But what is being triggered doing for you? What's it actually doing for you? It doesn't impact them. What's that great phrase? holding a sort of vendetta against someone is like drinking poison yourself and waiting for them to die. It ain't going to happen. So learning to let go of it, I think is really important. This understanding that your reaction is far more important than the thing that happened. And you remember when we were joined by Mo Gaudat? Oh yeah.

7:26Who said that when something happens that angers or frustrates or annoys you, the physiological change in the body lasts for 90 seconds. So if you're carrying a grudge against someone after two weeks or two months or two minutes or two years, that's a lot of revisiting a 90-second grudge. So actually your body's already forgotten about it after 90 seconds and moved on, whether it's losing your wallet, scratching your car, whatever. So don't choose to relive it because what is it doing for you? So that's really my take on happiness. Lean into people, understand them. And the great Bill Bullard quote, the American politician, opinion is the lowest form of knowledge.

8:04Empathy is what really matters because it means you have to try and relate to the other person. I think that's very important. When we talk about empathy, I think that's the theme of the next guest I want to share because over the last couple of years, I think the nation has shown incredible empathy to Rob Burrow and his family as he's been facing the terminal illness of motor neurone disease, which eventually claimed his life in June 2024. Now, I was really keen a couple of years before this to get his wife Lindsay on because my mum was a carer for my dad in his last few years. And I think seeing the sacrifice, the dedication, the humility to transform yourself from being a partner to being a carer for somebody is high performance in action.

8:49And when Lindsay came on, she spoke to us around how it just takes one person to set the example, whether this is kindness, whether it's strength, whether it's resilience, and it becomes infectious and the impacts on other people become significant. Shall we listen to Lindsay explain that? When Rob was first diagnosed, I was the weak one. I was the one that, you know, was breaking down. And it was, Rob was almost kind of, you know, that tower of strength for me. You know, Lindsay, come on, pull yourself together. And Rob implemented this no tears policy. You know, no crying. You know, it is what it is.

9:22We will, you know, we'll deal with it. And I'll fight the, you know, I'll fight the prognosis. But we kind of, you know, we move on and we deal with things. And I think for me, that was a real wake-up call. And I'm thinking, gosh, you know, if Rob can be so positive and he's the one that's going through this, I need to stay positive for him and that was kind of a bit of a wake-up call I think in many ways um so it was kind of like yeah actually you know this is not happening to me and I need to be strong and I need to be there for Rob and I need to support him um so I just had a good talking to myself and and that's you know from that day onwards it's it's been you know when we tackle this head-on and you know we raise as much awareness we raise as much um public support you know for this and I think you know it's been incredible the inspirational Lindsay Barrow there the wife of the late great Rob Burrow, who sadly passed away from motor neurone disease.

10:09And I know how much that personally impacted you, that conversation. Why does it live with you so strongly? You know, we've spoke to hundreds of people on this show. Yeah, I think because when they were facing the darkest of times, they were almost giving the rest of us a manifesto to live. It was the kindness and the selflessness of what Rob and Lindsay were doing. So before we arranged that interview, Lindsay couldn't understand why we wanted to get her on a podcast called High Performance. She was so humble that she didn't see it. I mean, I'll give you an example that even after Rob passed away earlier this year, I got a text off Lindsay to apologise that Rob hadn't come on the podcast because he'd promised he would do so, but the illness overtook him.

10:53And I think when we spoke to Will.i.am, he spoke about be the light in the room, be the person that lights up and energises the room. but I also think what Lindsay and Rob did was be the kindest person in the room. And I think when people demonstrate and role model kindness, it brings out kindness in other people as well. The world just seems a nicer place for demonstrating that. Selfless. She is selfless, isn't she, Lindsay? The absolute antithesis of selfish. Yeah. I mean, there's a great... I saw a commencement address speech a few years ago by a guy that said, if you want to find the smartest person in the room, find the kindest person.

11:30If you want to find the dumbest person, find the cruelest person because it's often the ability to connect with other people demands kindness and it demands a higher level of thinking and empathy and understanding and i think lindsay is the smartest and the kindest person that i've met over the last few years love that um give us another clip well we'll stay with rugby i think um if i think about themes where that really like hit me in the emotional solar plexus a story where you think whoa that's something that i'll remember for a long time it was when we sat down with the man known as uh the lion man sirian mcgehan the man that was made his name both as a player on the lion's tours and then subsequently as a coach but he spoke about when he was a young lad at 18 learning to play to learning his craft as a rugby player while also studying to be a teacher and how his dad recognized is that being a stand-up bloke, being the guy that you can rely on both on the rugby field and in the bar and socialising afterwards is so important.

12:35I won't spoil the punchline. I think if you listen to Ian tell his story, I think we'll see why it's kindness in action. It sort of came from my own experience of the support I got at different stages in my life as a player and a coach. You know, a father who put five pounds in my pocket when I was still at school as an 18 year old so that I could buy the rounds and stand at the bar after a game and still buy a round with everybody else. What I didn't know until after he died was he had to walk to work the last two days of the week. Do you remember with his grandkids and his family and stuff? That's right, running around.

13:23And it wasn't a rugby conversation. It was a really human conversation. Yeah. And I think that story there often shows us that, you know, there's that great sign that be kind, people fighting battles, you know nothing about. And I think Ian didn't know his dad was making that sacrifice till a long time afterwards. But it's a good reminder for all of us that you don't know what other people are going through. So if we start from a place of kindness, maybe we can discover it a little bit faster. And if people are struggling with that, I think that I would give them a tool that I often use. Like, you know, cynics, we all have them in our lives, right?

13:58They've kind of already decided someone is a dick based on their status or their job or the car they drive or the clothes they wear or a myriad of other things before they've even met them, right? I would just say my sort of rule in life is everyone, I love everyone until they prove me otherwise. I think everyone's a stand-up until they prove me otherwise. I think everyone is honest until they prove otherwise. not only does it mean that you see the best in people, and I think when you see the best in people, it changes how you react and act around them. And then it changes the way they are. So I think you kind of get, if you see the best, I think you get the best, but also it's such a far nicer way to operate than that cynical mindset of negativity.

14:42I think it's powerful for the person as well as for the, I think it's like, you know, it's powerful for the person thinking like that as well as for the other person. So it is on us to start by seeing the best in everybody. You don't let it go forever. If someone proves otherwise, it's fine to cut them out, right? But that actually takes on to our next guest, because I think we need to be aware of the language that we're almost surrounded by as well. If you think about, without being political on it, the language about asylum seekers or refugees, over the last few years we've heard descriptions like they're a swarm or describing them as vermin.

15:21Flooding into the kind of these phrases. Yeah, and like the subtlety of that language then starts to frame the way that we view it. And that leads us to the last and final clip I'd like to share, which was with an immigrant that left Africa, settled in France. And it was the first act of kindness he received that ended up being a springboard to what he subsequently went on to achieve. So now let's listen to a former MMA champion and subsequent heavyweight boxer francis and ganu describe kindness to him first i met uh first i went to the boxing gym yeah i didn't even know mma i went to the boxing gym and i met a guy name of the name of dj carman i mean he's the person that helped me the most like he talked to the boxing coach to get me in the gym and all the stuff he helped me financially like my first sneaker in Paris, he bought it to me.

16:16My first, my phone, people were making fun on me, on my phone, and then he gave me a new phone. He gave me an apartment for two months. So from the street to one apartment that he has in Paris, I lived there for two months. He was the guy. So Francis Ngannou there, the MMA champion. I think the final point is we can all learn to be a bit kinder Jake do you agree? Oh absolutely I think I like the fact we've ended with Francis as well because I think that it's only through hearing his story that you realise what kindness can do for someone you know your kindness to someone that you've never met before can change the course of their life as it did to Francis and Garner and also like the kind of the right kind of kindness not the kindness that's going to pay you back not the kindness that's done on social media for other people to see.

17:10You know, I often find it very strange when there's a tragedy and I know maybe the person involved and I know other people around them and they're personal friends, yet all I see is social media messages. And I'm thinking, you've got their number, send them a text. We don't need these public shows of kindness too much. What we need is really intensely private, personal shows of kindness. You know, I remember when I got a load of criticism for talking about Karen Carney on BT Sport, you know very publicly um and i sort of i did that because i kind of felt like just privately supporting someone is a is one thing but doing it publicly is something else so i'm not saying that we should always avoid public kindness but i'm saying let's do it for the right reasons you know let's do it to to kind of stand shoulder to shoulder with people who might be struggling and just and just remember like your kindness can change the course of someone's life Yeah, and again, I'd go back to the theme of all of this, that it's been present in pretty much every high performer and their journey.

18:11You think of like the ultimate alpha male, Francis Ngannou, was benefited by kindness. We think of somebody facing an end of life of their husband in Lindsay Burrow, understanding the power of kindness. We think about Joe Hart having a career setback, leaning into somebody, help build bridges and getting back on track. Like Ian McGee can, you know, 50 years after his dad had put that money in his pocket, still remembers that acts of kindness. So I'd say it doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be significant to you. But the impact of it can last a lifetime. Thanks a lot, mate. Thank you, mate.

18:48I hope you enjoyed that as well. Don't forget for all of those conversations, you can find them right now on the High Performance app with loads of other exclusive content and a few special little things to get you closer to your own version of High Performance. If you haven't seen the app yet, download it from the app store hit the link in the description to this show and we look forward to seeing you for another episode of high performance very soon