The SAS Mindset: Keep Going When Everyone Else Stops | Billy Billingham

0:00Here at first on the High Performance App, available early, Zach Brown, the McLaren boss on leading at the edge of racing. Welcome to the Essential Habits of High Performance, where we explore the mindsets and daily practices that help us lead better lives. Today, we're joined by Billy Billingham. Billy is one of the most decorated and respected soldiers in the British military. His journey began with a life-changing turning point when a moment of violence pushed him away from gang warfare and towards a career of discipline and service. After a career in the parachute regiment, he spent 20 years in the SAS, achieving the rank of Sergeant Major and serving as a personal bodyguard to Hollywood superstars.

0:47He's now a chief instructor on the TV show SAS, Who Dares Wins? What's most powerful about Billy's career isn't just the combat or the medals but the small daily habits that allowed him to remain calm under pressure focused when he needed to be and decisive in the world's most extreme environment As you'll hear, these aren't just lessons for elite military personnel They are profound strategies you can apply to your own life such as learning how to be calm in chaos seeing leadership as a service to a team and always going a little bit further by choosing discomfort. I really enjoyed this chat with Billy.

1:28It was honest and whilst it was a little bit profane at times, some of his wisdom was incredibly profound. And it's a real privilege to welcome the brilliant Billy Billingham into the studio. Now please note that this episode does contain strong language throughout and some candid discussions of violence and extreme experiences which may be challenging for some listeners. What we want to do is, on this series, we talk around sort of look at habits that our listeners can take away and go do it. So there's a few from your book that I wanted to talk about. Yeah, let's go for it. I mean, that story you told when you got stabbed.

2:07It was crazy. I'd had a situation just, which I don't talk about, I don't know if I've ever mentioned it actually, and it was at this SCAR festival stroke disco. And we're in there, and we're kind of in our little group, doing the ska music, dancing around. There's a guy stood next to me, Francis. And the next thing, I was like covered in what felt like warm coffee. I went, what the fuck? And I looked to my right, and Francis had been slashed across the face with a Stanley knife or a cutthroat. And I was covered in all his blood. And I think that moment, I've stood there with him going, what the fuck am I doing?

2:44So I had that moment then of, I need to get away from this. And you're 15 and you wake up and decide this isn't the life. Yeah, I'm looking at my mum and my dad and my family thinking, what the fuck am I doing? I've got to get out of here. I knew that anyway. And what I always say is, that wasn't anybody else's fault. That was mine. I knew what I was doing. I was getting into trouble. I was the problem. Not like my mum would say, you got in with the wrong gang. I did, but I was part of the fucking wrong gang. I was doing the bad things as well. So, you know, it was that moment. I knew if I live and get through this, I've got to get out of here.

3:15Well, that's a really good example of, like, a turning crossroads moment for you. So then, 17, that's when I went and joined the parachute regiment. So you go down to Aldershow, you do what sounds in your book like a pretty brutal induction training. There's a story you tell about carrying the log. Oh, mate. So getting down there, you know, I was one of the youngest, if not the youngest, definitely the skinniest and the mouthiest. But then I realised I'm around real fucking many, this is hard this is going to be horrendous and then I literally took it day by day and in the back of my head was what I believed to be my dad telling me I won't make it and that fucking kept me going when I really felt down and he wasn't I don't know why he did it you know he wasn't nasty about it but anyway so and then we get to a thing called P Company P Company's made up of 10 physical events over 3 days and the hardest thing on there is the log race and it used to be if you fell off the log fail the log race you failed doesn't matter how you've done it and everything else that's how it used to be it may well still be the same and then we got on the log on the stage it's only two miles and I've got the two big Scottish guys on the back fucking arms like my waist and then on the front me and another skinny kid and skinny-ish kid and off we go and it's brutal you've got staff screaming at you like we do on the table fucking screaming you gotta go you gotta win and it's up over the sand dunes up the hill down it's a brutal old course and it's horrendous midway through three of them have already gone and I'm on the front and my arm's like fucking stretch Armstrong.

4:46The brutes at the back are driving the engine and I'm trying to keep the engine off the floor or the bumper, the nose off the floor. Honestly, I think, I don't even know how I finished. I couldn't even stand up. I couldn't speak at the end of it. I'm throwing up. I was absolutely done. But at least I got to the end. I feel like I got to the end because they must have dragged me over or pushed me that far forward and it was horrific. I could still feel it now how difficult that was. The bit I was interested in is what's the habit that you've got instructors screaming abuse at you. you've got this inner narrative in your head of your dad saying to you, you'll never get through this.

5:20How do you silence all of that noise so you just actually just keep on? I think I must have picked it up pretty early. You can part mentalise everything and put yourself in where you are now and saying to myself, why am I here? Because I want to be here, I need to be here. So my mindset is, I don't care how fucking hard this is going to be, I ain't going to stop. I will stop when I collapse or they fucking pull me off. I physically, mentally will not say those words no, I'm not going to do it I knew it was going to be hard and it was hard and I just thought I'll fucking keep going, going, going until I can't go anymore and I've always had that drive and that mentality and even today I still have it the thing is with me I do this thing, I go right what I want to achieve, I know it's going to be hard I'm accepting it, it's going to be uncomfortable but I always say to myself it's going to be worth it so I'm going to fucking do it I'll get up and run every day I haven't run this morning, that's a lie most days I'll get up on a run and I'll say to myself I'm going to go five miles and the stupid voice I make, once I get to four miles I go six, and I'm arguing I'm not actually arguing inside my own fucking head go six, because I can, and I do it I know it fucking hurts, but I accept it's going to hurt but I know I can do it now as I'm a bit older, subconsciously it's probably already in my head I always say to myself, it's a passage in time it's going to hurt, but it's going to end, it's going to finish and now I also say added to that is I don't know how much time I'll be able to do this because I'm getting older.

6:42My legs are fucking, my knees are falling apart, my back's falling apart, my shoulder's dislocated. So what? It hurts, but there will come a time I won't. So while I can do it, I'm going to do it. At the sacrifice of it's going to fucking hurt and the recovery's going to be slower, but I can do it. I'll still do it. You've spoken about the importance of being calm within chaos in a situation where fear or anger can be fatal. I'm interested in how you've learned to master those quite intense emotions and use them as a fuel. I think it starts very early from boxing, being taught boxing and being shown by a real good bunch of people that taught me boxing was if you watch somebody get into a fight and starts to get aggressive, the one who loses control and gets more aggressive ends up swinging.

7:27The guy who can stay calm, can read the situation smarter, take a breath, step back and use straightforward punches where the guy's trying to windmill. and that calm motion and taking a breath and thinking and looking and doing the right thing if you like will always create the winner and you've spoken as well about how calmness can be contagious think about it yourself if you're getting all wound up to a farce and the guy's just they're calm it fucks you you're looking and going what has he got that I haven't got why ain't he getting wound up I'll give a wild example of that one right I had a buddy guardian at Old Colgan for one, two nights down in London years ago.

8:08So I turn up to meet Org Olgen. He's fucking three times bigger than me. And I'll never forget, I met him backstage and I'm looking at him and he's looking at me and he's going, you're security. I went, yeah, I am. I'm playing it dead cool. I'm kind of admiring the fucking size of this dude, but I'm thinking, how the fuck do I protect him? And he's looking at me and he's going, and I can see I'm kind of calm as shit, but small. He's looking at me and he's thinking, this blog is either hard as fuck or a lunatic and on the basis of me playing it cool and being calm he was like I ain't gonna risk it so stay calm be confident and people were like and I'll do the same if I'm gonna fight somebody I expect you to start rocking and you're rocking okay we're gonna go for it but that idea of the rocking that's one of the things in boxing it's an altruism that the one part of your body that will always betray you is your feet because the adrenaline's got to escape somewhere, so your foot's tapping away a hundred miles an hour.

9:05What are the habits and the hacks that you've learned that control that adrenaline so it becomes an energy rather than wasting? I think accepting where you are, I'm in a situation, control your breathing. Literally, just fucking calm down. Stop fucking panicking. I'm here. I'm faced with this. I'm going to deal with it. In my head, this is what I'm doing. I'm breathing. I'm controlling my breathing. I'm staying calm. I'm thinking about what's in front of me. I know what my capabilities are. I know what I've got to deal with. So I've narrowed everything down to this small channel, which is easy to control.

9:41So your thought process, accepting where you are, controlling your breathing. Now let's deal with it. You give yourself an opportunity and a chance by controlling yourself before you can control the situation. So control of yourself to control the situation. Accept the problem. It could be difficult. Expect it to be difficult. control your breathing and go at it with what you can and know whatever that is whether it's a written exam whether that's a fight whether it's a challenge it doesn't matter it's the same thing control relax and go into it which brings me to the second habit and I want to talk more about your service with the special forces I love the stuff around that it's not about you is one of the habits you talk about in the book the idea of seeing leadership as a service rather than status.

10:30A good leader, if that's what I want to talk about, a good leader is generally the quietest person in the room. Not the person who has to stand up and bark and shout and gob off. Because to be a leader, you have to have a team. Otherwise, who are you fucking leading? Just yourself. You're a solo, you're an individual. It's about trying to be a shepherd rather than a sheep. And I've learned this the hard way, you know, from when I first joined, I gravitated towards the guy who had the biggest mouth because I thought he shouts it all, does it all. until he did the example of when I expected him to stand up, he didn't stand up, he's pretty fucking weak.

11:03Then I realised, shit, I need to change my direction, gravitate towards the leader who's quiet, told me what to do, let the people do the job, and then put you right until you got it right when you got it wrong, which was great. As a leader, as I have been, and some of the brilliant, most horrendous sort of things that I've been involved in, particularly in my latter days with the regiment, my job as a leader is to keep the train on the track, The train needs to go forward and drive the success, which means the people in the team have got responsibility. Allow them to have the responsibility. Allow them to do their job.

11:39Let them, a team is made up of all leaders. We've all got a job to do, and at some point, somebody's got to, the driver's got to fucking drive, he's the leader now until we get there. The fucking navigator's the leader now because he's got to tell us which direction he's got left and right. I'll be sat at the back going okay I'm going to slow it down move it to the right a bit do this as a good leader you sit back and use the tools you've got use the people you've got know your strengths and weaknesses because you don't have all the answers and you don't although you know as a sergeant major I've done all the operations I've been on thousands so what?

12:16there's always something different in everything that we do and it never always goes exactly the same in fact it never does so have the team in front of you that can do the job allow them to do the job and you then, when things start to go pear-shaped, that's when you become a real leader. You step in now, take control of it, reassess it, go again. And when it goes successfully right, share the love. When it goes fucking wrong, you take it on the chin because you're the boss. So that leadership thing, as we're talking about, is about choosing the right people in your team who can do the job but not micromanaging them and let them do it.

12:49So for somebody listening to this, you're describing how you've almost buried your ego to be able to listen to others, to recognize strengths and your own weaknesses. What's the habit that you'd advise? Like, how can we all get better at burying our ego? Just be true to yourself. You don't have all the answers. Nobody does. You know, I've stood in front of CEOs of oil companies and briefed them on what they know and realized they're just like us. Sometimes we have to cuff it a little bit or make a fucking assumption. The word expert is a weird thing. No one is fucking good at everything. so it's about be true to yourself be honest to yourself do I know it if I know it and I'm sure 100 % sure which is hard to have that 100 % then stick with it if I'm unsure then find somebody who is fucking sure and use them don't be afraid to do that so personally be honest honest with yourself don't be afraid to make a decision but don't be afraid to fail either or get knocked back but be ready to bounce back and have another option to make this work.

13:54So go on, tell us about those last two then, about the be prepared to fail but then bounce back. How can we get better at that? It comes with experience. It comes with... There's nothing worse than I wanted to do but I was too scared to try it. No, no, no, go at it. Don't be afraid to get knocked on your ass. Don't get afraid to be proven wrong. I've been proven fucking wrong loads of times. All my schooling I was proven wrong, you know. but I never fucking gave up I found an alternative so find an alternative so don't it's about just look this might not go to plan and expect it not to go to plan the old saying if you put your mind to something you can do anything that's bullshit no you can't you can't put your mind to it then do enough due diligence to say how am I going to do this don't just go in fucking blind how should I do this find a much information get the right team together do what you need to do go at it don't expect everything to be flexible is probably what I'm trying to say.

14:51Stay flexible all the time. Doesn't matter if you're doing it in the middle of the time. There'll be something that is different. Be ready for what is different, not for what you already know. Spend your energy and time thinking about what if. What if something, until you get to the end result. So accept it, be honest, have honesty and integrity with yourself, and don't be afraid. Look, people talk about resilience. You don't have resilience unless you've failed. That's what builds resilience. Being fucking put in your box and being knocked back. you know if you're great at everything then unfortunately you think you're great at everything and then when you do fall you're going to fall hard.

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16:16What's been the biggest mistake you've made then that you've learned the most from? I think my early days was gravitating towards the wrong people. You know, after being told, probably, when you're given information, take it, but then do your own due diligence and add to it. You know, if somebody tells me, oh, so-and-so's this, I hear what you're saying, but I'll make my own decision. When I was a bit younger, I think we've kind of alluded to it a little bit, I remember I fucking finished depot training training as a young kid, now I'm a young man, I'm going to the battalion, and the great bit of advice a wonderful fella told me, unfortunately got killed not long after, was he who shouts aloud has got nothing to tell you.

16:57I didn't quite work it out until it was a little bit late, I kind of got what he meant, so my biggest mistake was I gravitated to the guy who told me how hard he was, the guy who won the Falklands war on his own, the guy, you know, to the point of then realising, fuck I've just wasted six months of my life because of so they're my biggest mistakes you know and sometimes I'm a little bit I give people I have too much trust I'll use the regimen as the example you get a young kid that are attached to us who do our signals or our medics they come into our fold of our people and I'll treat them the same and to a degree they are but then you know the days the early days they turn up and they're like they've got my radios ready for me they've got my shit together And as time gets by and they get treated like everybody and more relaxed, now my radios ain't ready, this ain't ready.

17:47They get too fucking complacent and I allow people to get to that point instead of keeping a grip of it going, being a little bit sharper. So they're the mistakes I've made, being too honest and too trustworthy too soon. See, the word trust to me fascinates me because in your world, that's the difference between life and death. What do you mean or understand by trust? Trust is if you're telling me you're going to do something, you're going to do it and you're going to do it to the best of your ability if you're going to tell me you're going to be there you're going to be there because if I tell you I'm going to be there I'm going to be there it's about again trust is built on honesty which is you haven't enough trusted me to tell me something I probably don't know so then I'm aware of it and vice versa so the ingredients of trust is that that integrity and honesty everything's got to revolve around that and if you do fuck up admit it I've fucked up I've got something wrong you know I don't know if you're the same boat as me but I mean I've got hundreds of people I associate with I've only got about four or five people that I really do trust you know outside of the military I'm talking about my life right now you know obviously my family my kids that's a different entity but people people are associated to me because they need some of their time or I need whatever you know what I mean or they want to there's certain people I would I have trusted and will trust with my life again and it's honesty and integrity it's those ingredients of knowing everything about each other, knowing that, you know, if you can't do it, you'll tell me you can't do it.

19:16Or if you're going to do something, you're going to give it the best of your ability, not half-hearted for the wrong reasons. And when you're in the regimen, would you do anything, any exercises or anything to develop trust amongst each other? Yeah, everything you do is about trust. You know, because everything we do is fucking dangerous. Yeah. Training, some of the training we do is more dangerous than the operations. you train for us you've got to trust each other you've got to trust you know falling through the fucking sky at night that he knows what he's doing he's going to be in the right place you know you're going in a room and I'm closer than you fucking firing right next to you I've got to not worry about what you're doing I've got to worry about what I'm doing because that's what makes a winning formula it's about knowing your capabilities and knowing his capabilities and his capabilities so it's all that trust is built up everything you do so everything we do is trust because in that world in the regiment if you get it fucking wrong somebody's going to pay for it badly and in training we've had some bad injuries we've lost people people have lost lives we train hard we train as hard and as real as possible to build that trust to build that camaraderie and it becomes muscle memory instinctiveness but it's all built around not just being sharp and fast in a split second knowing that you're doing 100 % in your heart the right fucking thing I want to talk about your new book further further that title intrigued me yeah what do you understand when we talk about further further comes from um go more advance you know and it comes from from that young kid age of nine being taught boxing and the old man saying to me great fantastic lessons he told me all about boxing i know i've said this a million times but i'll quickly say it anyway he told me that boxing wasn't a sport of brutality, boxing is a, it's a poor man's game of chess.

21:08That's how he described it to me. Chess with gloves on. Yeah, it's a poor man's game, it's about respect for each other, respect for the sport, always have that because if you lose respect, you lose discipline. That creates your discipline, he says, you know, and it's about anticipating, reading what's in front of you, you know, reading those signs, those mannerisms and being one step ahead of it when you can see because somebody almost signaled they're about to do something, either get out of the way or go forward and be quicker. it was all those lessons and he used to finish it off he goes you're getting the lessons you're getting the message be prepared for flexibility and change i.e.

21:43you're good you probably know you're good he says but there will be somebody better and something will and at that point is when you really need to step up again and learn another lesson and it's about going a little bit further and those fucking words mate edged into my head I'll never forget as that young kid feeling down bite my lip take a breath go again yeah it hurts i want to give up i'm not going to give up keep going keep going keep going and he drummed that into us and then when i joined the sas the thing always a little further and i was like oh yes i'm back in my neck i went back and i've always been doing it anyway i always want to push myself further and i've heard you know 10 lessons of my life yeah based on all my experience my knowledge and what i've been through that mad world of hardship because that's what led me to where I am by going that bit further in the cold in the wet in the rain being uncomfortable I remember going to Hereford a few years ago and speaking to one of your colleagues yeah and he'd failed the selection first time round and when I asked him why he said I started to think and he used the example where he was going he was instructed I think he was in Belize I might be wrong here but he the instruction was he had to get up and just keep running in the sea and running back out and running back in.

22:58Yeah, the beach runs. And he said, at one stage, I allowed myself to start thinking, and as soon as that happened, it unraveled quite quickly. The mind, you start fucking talking yourself out of it. Accept it's going to be hard, accept it's a passage in time, and just get on with it, just keep going and going and going. And the dawn, as soon as that chink in the armour is in there, it gets wider and wider and wider, and then you start talking yourself out of it, oh, fuck this, it's not for me. and then come the excuses oh I don't want to be away from home blah blah blah fucking bullshit the truth is it's fucking hard and I'm not ready for it or I've taught myself out of it that's the truth yeah you know so why do so many people fail why are there only so many people it's because of that it's just that never give up attitude it's got to be it's more than that but you've got to have that as the driving force to to fucking just go at it just fucking keep going don't stop are you familiar with the work there's a there's a physiologist is the guy called Tim Noakes, who talks around the central governor theory that he says, like, when you're running and you start convincing yourself that you're exhausted or you're at fatigue, he argues that that's your brain merely just giving you an early warning light and saying you're about 10 % gone of what you could actually do.

24:13Right. And the best athletes are ones that can go further, like your title of the book, is those that can override that central governor that's warning them to stop. Well, I mean, I don't want the science behind it like this guy does, but I mean, it makes sense. That's exactly what it is, isn't it? You know, when I fucking drive in your car and you're looking at your petrol thing, all of a sudden it's into the red. You think, well, all right, it's not just going to stop. It's going to go further because it gives you another 30 miles. It's a slightly different example, but in your head you're going, fucking hell, I can hardly breathe, but nah, there's still a little bit of long space.

24:45I can go a bit further. And it's being able to override that stop now and just go for it. Yeah. But also having the knowledge and sense to go, that is me now. Now I know it's before you create yourself a fucking permanent damage or kill yourself. I've never run myself into the ground completely. I felt like I have. But it's knowing when that's enough. And as a man that is used to spending your life on the outside edge of what's possible, how do you balance that with, I know you're a husband, and you're a dad and a granddad. Yeah. I look at my grandkids and, you know, my kids, dare I say it, I weren't the greatest father, I was never around, mainly because of the regiment, but I couldn't put more effort in.

25:35So I'm now being a parent for the first time, but I make sure with my grandkids, all the hard lessons I learned, I don't want them to learn it the way I did. I want the valuable things that come out of it, I want them to know that. So I do get your fucking iPads out of the way, none of that shit. I get them out in the woods I get them out being cold I get them in the canoes in November I get them in the fucking river in November not to the point where I'm going to hurt them but I let them taste what pain is about and why we do it and what it makes of you so I like all those lessons I've learnt are balanced with the kids so they're getting something that I'm passing back and that's what it's really all about now I'm passing everything back so if there was just one habit that you could pass on to your grandkids that you say I want you to know, learn and adopt this what is it it's discipline whatever you're gonna do and you is do it and do it to the best of your ability don't make fucking excuses because you're only making excuses to yourself you know everybody sees for that shit so have the discipline to whatever you want to do go at it and give it everything you've got do it to your best and if you fail accept it I know that's more than one thing but discipline's the overarching thing have the discipline to fucking say you're going to do it and do it.

26:51Don't just talk about it. Do it. And don't be afraid to try it. Don't be afraid if you fail. Be afraid of not fucking giving 100%. Don't half-ass do something. Just get on with it. And I'm like that with them all the time. My daughter's going, you're pushing them too hard. No, I'm not. I know what I'm doing with them. So that one thing is discipline. Because it's about you. It's about who you are and what you really are. So I'm going to do it. Well, then do it. Don't talk about it. Do it. Go and do it. But your life is a testament to that, Bill, isn't it? Yeah. Growing up in Walsall and finding yourself being stabbed at 15 and in hospital bed to lead in the regiment.

27:31It's a testament. It is. I've worked hard and I do work. I knew I was never going to be academic. I am monkey see, monkey do. I am hands on crawl. I do shit the hard way. Some smart blogger, actually, if you do this, do that, you can move that bunch of rubble over there, easier, smart, I'm like, fucking get amongst, let's go, let's go, let's go. That's who I am. Yeah. You know, there are smarter ways and I'll admit that but I will fucking get it done. I will get it done the way I know best and it's generally the fucking hard way and that's what I've done, you know, I'll try to be smarter as I get older but I ain't afraid of being tired, exhausted and scared and, you know, I'll get it done.

28:12I'll get shit done and it has been that journey. You know, I look at my childhood and growing up and what I went through. I don't want my kids to go through it. I don't want, I certainly don't want my grandkids going through it. But I want you to get the fundamental fucking values out of everything that I've done. Not everything's about being comfortable. I feel like when I talk about things like I talk, the American way, I love America to bits, but everything's about, it's smarter in many ways, but it's easier. You know, everything's easier. Fucking, take your laundry to the laundrette. Oh no, we've got a drive-thru.

28:48so fucking walk the laundry with your stuff now we're going to drive to it you know everything's easier it's about taking out the physical side of things and the thought process that's important to have those basic things to do mate this has been amazing thank you I really love chatting with you likewise mate thank you for listening to the essential habits of high performance what Billy Billingham shows us is that peak performance is forged through doing the rigorous, boring, routine disciplines. It's built on the non-negotiable behaviours that ground us in chaos. It's about a relentless pursuit of just pushing through once you've made the decision to go after something.

29:31And the power of taking total accountability for whatever those decisions are. These are lessons that we can all apply, whether we're facing a career crisis or just having a difficult week. I'm Damien Hughes and until next time choose your habits carefully because as we've discovered they're what shape who you eventually become