Things Men Don't Say Out Loud (E408)

0:00For years, men have been told to stay strong, to keep it in, to don't show weakness, and now suddenly we're asking them to open up and wondering why they aren't. Well, today we are going to open up because myself, Spencer Matthews, the host of Untapped, and Matt Willis, the host of On The Mend, are going to have a conversation that a lot of men are still not having. What you're actually feeling, why it's so hard to say things out loud, and how we can start to change it. This is part of the Say It Louder initiative, a partnership with BetterHelp across the next few months, bringing these kinds of conversations to light and making a real measurable difference to men's mental health.

0:35Let's get straight into it. Right, shall we break the ice? Are either of you currently in therapy? Do you know what, I'm not right now. I have been recently, but I'm not at the moment. but I've been in therapy a lot in my life but I'm not right now at this moment similar to you Matt I've kind of had periods of my life where I've been in therapy you know like once a week for an hour every week and I'm not right now although I still have contact with my therapist there are times in my life where I feel like I need it more than other times but also I'm a massive believer in having it when you're not in crisis when you don't feel you need it, like a kind of maintenance act almost.

1:23I actually quite like the sitting with him in this case and just talking completely openly about yourself for a full hour. It's quite refreshing. My wife would say that I'm selfish anyway, but it's quite hard. Never had you doubt that someone wants to talk about himself for an hour, do you? No, but do you know what I mean? Definitely not. Have you not? Okay, good. there's obviously been great progress made in recent years the therapist has done a great job on you thank you Jake give me his number I don't know it is interesting isn't it if something is bothering you or you want a clear path through something to sit even with a good friend and talk about yourself for a full hour is quite indulgent it feels quite self-indulgent whereas in therapy obviously that's the point of it I think also the last time I went to therapy I hadn't had therapy for a couple of years and I went there with nothing, really.

2:17I kind of didn't go there for a specific reason or anything. I kind of went there and went, everything's going pretty well, but I feel a little bit kind of flat. I should feel better about my life. Do you know what I mean? It was like, why? Let's explain, break that down. It was kind of quite a weird time to go. And when I told people about that, they were quite surprised. They were like, oh, you're killing it. Everything's going good. I was like, yeah, but, you know, that's probably a good time to go and check yourself a little bit. would you ever feel embarrassed about telling someone that you're in therapy I wouldn't no that's just me I don't how do I put this I wouldn't feel kind of embarrassed by much to be honest and I think these things are personal but if you want to share it with your friends or your family the very definition of a good friend or family member should be very supportive of them.

3:10I don't think therapy is anything to be ashamed about at all. In fact, you know, I would put therapy in a similar category to running, lifting weights, you know, looking after yourself. You know, it's a workout for the mind. So, you know, me saying to my wife even, oh, you know, I'm going to be home a bit late, I'm having an hour of therapy after work. She would only ever see that as a positive thing even if life was and inverted commas, great. I mean, there's been times in my life where I think when I first started kind of like exploring this kind of stuff. It did feel like an alien world to me and it felt like something that you don't really tell anyone about that you keep to yourself, you know, because people might think you're, you know, crazy or something.

3:50So I was like, don't tell anyone, you know, keep this to yourself. But I don't feel like that anymore. I think that I think there are some people that I might be anxious about or nervous to tell them I'm in therapy. Yeah. I can't think who those people are, but I definitely, I think what bothers me is if you say, oh, yeah, I'm in therapy at the moment, what's the follow up question going to be? Oh why? Or are you okay? Or can we do anything to help? And that's what I don't really want. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I wouldn't mind saying I'm seeing someone at the moment because I'm struggling a bit but then it's all the follow up stuff.

4:21You don't want the sympathy. Not really. That's why you go to a therapist for the follow up questions. Yeah. Yeah exactly. What about I mean obviously we're talking about therapists and you go in there and you basically tell them everything. Are there times in your life where and it might even be now where you don't tell people everything that's going on and you just restrict the information that you share? I think there has been times in my life where I've done that. I've not wanted to worry people. There's something about that. I think this is a lot of problem with men right now. I feel like it's like we kind of got conditioned in a way, from early on, to kind of keep it in.

5:00Do you know what I mean? To not show any weakness, to kind of keep calm, carry on, just get on with it. That kind of stuff, which I definitely felt like, I don't know, it was a sign of weakness to show that I was struggling. Yeah, I think as well it depends on the behavior really. Lots of the time that I have sought therapy has been around abusing alcohol or certain behaviors that I would like to change. so sharing that information with people freely can feel a bit destructive and it can come with a sense of shame you know you don't necessarily want to be calling people who you love or you know meeting people you love and going oh I'm off to see a therapist just because I can't control my drinking you know it's like it's almost embarrassing well it certainly felt like there was shame attached to it for me So I think that therapy, to build on your point from the stigma of therapy, I like to look at it as a performance tool instead of therapy, like something that I need because I need to fix something in my life.

6:17It's kind of, how can I improve? How can I be better? Would it be beneficial to have an hour with this person? You know, see it kind of like, I don't know, I'm not a huge fan of the term life coaching, because the people giving it haven't lived a full life yet. So it's hard to coach somebody through life, particularly as, you know, everyone's experiences in life are different. but you know I like to see therapy as how can I be better than I currently am and can this conversation help me achieve that you know instead of I'm a bit broken how do I fix myself which of course is you know it's the same thing a different way of looking at it I think that's a barrier for young men in particular as well at the moment you know like this whole I probably would be interested in talking to a therapist but I don't want my friends and family to know and I don't want people to think that there's something wrong with me.

7:11And I'm a bit confused and I think society expects one thing of me but I don't feel that I can fulfil that. So I think it's quite difficult in many cases to be a young man nowadays. It's almost like the role of a man has changed and I think that people are struggling to keep up with it. That's really interesting because I think our parents probably and our grandparents definitely, The role of a man was clear then, wasn't it? You would be the breadwinner, you would go out, you would graft, you would come home and there's the family. And our grandparents would expect that the family was being run while they're out working.

7:49It's so different for us now. It's like, what are we? Do we still do that? Do we be emotional or do we bottle it all up? Do we share and tell the world exactly how we're feeling? I don't know what a man looks like these days. I think the thing about sharing is interesting because you guys have a slightly different experience to me that Emma works and Vogue works. My wife Harriet doesn't. I mean, she does because she's at home with the kids, but she doesn't have a job that she goes to. So actually, it's very interesting when it comes to do you tell everyone everything. In the world that we're in, where I work in London, and Harriet's in Norwich where we live, looking after the kids, there's loads of stuff she does that I don't even know about, right?

8:26You know, like get Seb's hockey stuff. I wouldn't know where to begin to find that stuff. Then there's a load of things that I do that Harriet wouldn't... get involved in or know about. And actually that does create a really interesting dynamic in a relationship where something happens and your partner goes, why are you not telling me everything? And actually you can't tell everyone everything. And also I think that I see my responsibility as going out, coming to work, creating high performance, building a few other businesses and then making sure there's enough money that the mortgage gets paid and everything happens.

8:57And if there's a month where things are a bit tight or I have to have a conversation with Harriet about money, there is like a definite shame or embarrassment linked to that. where she's on her side of the bargain, everything at home is rocking and rolling, and I've had a month where cash flow's been challenging in the business or something, and it's like, oh, that is a really weird, weird sort of tightrope, I think, that I tread sometimes. Yeah. So do you find talking to someone about that kind of stuff, about the way you feel about that, helpful? Yeah, I do. I think I like to, because actually, we live in this world where we think that everything is flowing and perfect for other people, and it's when you only talk to someone else that you would put either as an equal or above you in the business world or something.

9:38And they go, oh, no, this is like how it is. It's a constant challenge. Trying to run a business with 30 people or 100 people is not easy. Sometimes I think it's easy with 10 ,000 people because the business is so big. You know everything is going to be okay. Small businesses are hard. That is a big stress point for me, trying to be a business person. I'm not employed, right, by anyone. everything I do is my own the buck falls with you on everything there's not a single thing that I do now where I'm employed and that's hard basically I'm unemployed and unemployable and therefore it all rests on my shoulders I actually prefer anyone to just get a salary from BT Sport I was like talk about football and get paid lovely well look we've got a bunch of questions in front of us so we haven't seen them we don't know what they're going to be and I guess we just take in terms to pick them up and speak.

10:34Who wants to go first? I think Matt. Matt? Me? Please. I think Matt. Who's going first? Matt. Okay, here we go. I'll go first. Right. Question one, the double standard. Who in your life growing up actually showed you how to deal with something hard? Whoa. Who in your life growing up showed you how to deal with something hard? That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, so like a role model or something, I suppose, or someone that you were... For mine, it was my parents, and the answer was always the same thing. Hard work. Yeah, yeah. So my... Manners. We came from a house of hard work, basically. So I remember, and you know these things happen when you don't even realise as a kid.

11:14My dad lost his job in about 1986, 1987. We had three kids. We had no money, really. We lived in Peterborough. Clothes came from jumble sales. Holidays, if we had one once a year, we'd drive a car to a campsite and camp. But you know when you don't know anything different? You don't know that there's not much money floating around, so it's just your life. Then I remember my dad was suddenly away from us all the time behind this locked door in the house, which was his study. And again, you don't relate to what's happening, but now I know he was doing an MA. So he basically went back to college, went back to uni, whilst working, whilst having three kids, whilst having no money, because he'd lost his job.

11:53And he was trying to educate himself to get a better job. And so he would still at this time be working. and so we'd go to work all day, come home, do his degree all evening. And I think he went for like nine or ten jobs and didn't get any of them. And again, you don't understand that stress. And as we got older, it was always all about hard work. If ever there was a challenge in the house, we sort of lent into hard work. And there was the answer to everything, which is why I was doing a paper round at like 12 years old. Yeah, I only have memories of my dad working, basically, same as you. He was a serious craft.

12:24He's 83 years old and is still working all day, every day. He's just decided, I'm not sure how much he'd want me to share here, but quite funny, he literally just bought a pub in Bewley in the highlands of Scotland in the middle of nowhere. And he's just in there all day, every day, ripping the piece, ripping the thing down, like doing it up. He's got guests coming in like a few. It's just quite a random project. I wonder why he feels the need to be doing that. Yeah, but he's built incredible businesses, but he is completely attached to redoing this pub. He's 83. He's always worked like that. My mom as well has always been like a grafter, always busy.

13:05Obviously, I grew up in the same house as two brothers, James and Michael. James was a very gifted racing driver from a young age. So I would kind of see him like not really be able to be in school. He was a professional racing driver when he was very young, so he didn't do particularly well in school because he was never around to take his exams and stuff. But he wasn't in school. He was busy traveling, racing. And Michael, obviously, we lost quite young. He was the youngest Brit to climb Everest and died when he was 22. But I remember that pretty vividly as a 10-year-old. I remember feeling what an incredible thing it is that somebody as young as Michael would want to climb Everest, be that adventurous at such a young age.

13:48And what did your parents show you about how to deal with that? I remember when we first found out, we were in the French West Indies at the time that we got the call. I was in my room and they were in theirs room above me and they kind of called me and they said to come upstairs. Came upstairs and they were kind of holding each other and they were very sad, like visibly quite, like the atmosphere was very awkward in the room. it was strange because they had always been, I'd never seen my parents upset before. And they kind of held me as well and said, Michael is lost on the mountain. And I can remember at the time just being quite naive and just thinking, well, that's fine, obviously.

14:36I'm sure he'll be found. So it didn't hit me until quite a lot later. But they were very strong. My mum in particular was incredibly strong. She was, you know, broken by it, incredibly sad, and so was the whole family. Nobody has been the same, you know, exactly the same since. But they never showed, you know, a lot of it. They shielded me from how they really felt in order to let me live my life as a 10-year-old. I was never dragged into the very pure sadness of it all it was kind of go and play and see your friends it wasn't so much I think you would exclude a 10 year old from the turmoil of that situation so I remember them dealing with it quite well for me I didn't process it until quite a lot later so I only had therapy for it in my adult life like years and years later and we went to Everest to try and find his body and we made that film Finding Michael and you know I learned an awful lot about the mountain on the mountain and kind of you know just was able to to let go of some of the the pain when I was up there but I had a fair amount of therapy around his death and not really processing it as a kid I think death is quite an unusual thing to contend with as a child you know I'm not sure it's it's obviously you know you watch the Lion King and stuff and it's a circle of life and it's all a part of living.

16:11So I think you're just a little bit more

16:16accepting of it, I think. You know, I think when you're in your... I suppose that is the case for maybe say a grandparent, but when it's your brother, you know, and they're like, what, 10, 12 years older than you, it kind of must be kind of like a bit of a world spinner. Yeah, no, well, it definitely was, you know, it's... You know, we don't talk about it too much anymore, but it will have had a huge impact on my brother James. Obviously, they were a year apart. They were best friends. They grew up together in the same house all the time, lived together in London. So that, I can only imagine it must have been harder for James than it was for me, obviously difficult for everyone in the family, but for him in particular.

16:56But I'm fortunate to come from a family where people have done difficult things around me all of the time. you know like my mum raising a large family and my father always working always grinding he was a mechanic and then you know became a racing driver himself and then built businesses and you know i i see my dad as a real um a huge inspiration of mine you know i still bounce stuff off he's 80 he's 83 as i say you know he's absolutely sharp you know if i have business ideas i'll call him first you know bounce them off him and he tries not to be too pessimistic in his old age but he It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:34What's your answer to the question? I mean, if I'm honest, I didn't really have that growing up. Like, I mean, I kind of... What, hard stuff? Well, we had hard stuff, but I don't know if I had anyone who showed me how to deal with it. Like, I was very kind of... I don't know, I felt like I was always quite on my own in a way. I wasn't very close to my family, you know. I suppose we were close to most of them, but it was quite a troubled childhood, so it was kind of quite difficult to kind of... I would never go to them with any problems. Or they would never show me any problems or if it was a row or something, I kind of experienced that.

18:06But I never really have that until I was probably a teenager and I had a friend called Ed. And Ed's dad, Paul, was this kind of like, I think he had Ed when he was about 16 years old. And he drove a nice car and he lived in the cool part of town. And I was like, who the fuck is this guy? And how is he your dad? He looks just a bit older than us. you know, it was so crazy. And I admired him so much because he was so open. That's huge. And he'd ask me, and he'd ask me how I was, you know, and he'd kind of like, you know, he'd kind of check in on me a little bit. Was that the first time in your life you'd experienced that from an adult?

18:46Yeah, I think so. I really admired him. I kind of like, and it was the first time anyone had kind of asked me if I was all right and actually wanted the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and actually wanted to, and I didn't answer truthfully, you know, But he kind of left that open so if I ever wanted to, I could. Are you still in touch with him? Yeah, all the time. He was the best man at my wedding. I love that. Because I think sometimes people have these, they come in your life at these right times. And then you're really grateful and then you sort of never actually tell them that and they just float off into the distance.

19:15And years later you think, man, why didn't I tell them how I felt? So I'm so pleased you did. No, no, he's been an amazing, amazing part of my life. And I went through loads of struggles and stuff and he was very much there. you know and he was yeah it was like but also I kind of I got this kind of feeling of because he was from where we were you know he wasn't from he was from the same council states that we grew up in you know and he made this life and I remember I went I went skiing with him right when I was about oh god 21 22 or something and you know from this like appearance of this baller guy you know he'd make us sandwiches and stuff because the mountain was too expensive and I was like oh he's still you know he's still got a sense of what you know he's not like you know it's like so I really admired everything about him you know it was a real good thing he sounds great yeah it was great do you think men are feeling lost about their place yes yeah just to pick on something you said earlier on which I think was really interesting I think it might be new Spencer actually like I feel like the probably me like the job the job description has changed.

20:27But no one's given you the new script. Do you know what I mean? It's like we as men, we're not quite sure what our place is anymore. Do you know what I mean? I feel like, not for everyone obviously, but I feel like that's a real looming thing. You kind of like, you don't really know where your place in the world is right now. You know, it used to be quite structured and quite easy to follow. Now, what is that? I think you're right. I rally against this phrase, toxic masculinity, right? Because I think that any time we talk about masculinity being toxic. We're giving a message. You've got a son, have you?

21:01Yeah, yeah. You've got a son. I've got a son. I worry that we're saying to them, oh, being masculine is toxic. Absolutely, yeah. And it really bothers me that. I think that what we've done is we've got confused about what masculinity is, and we think it's about dominance, and it's about control, and it's about exerting pressure, and it's about pushing and finding limits. Masculinity is none of those things. Masculinity is strength, but that's not a bad thing. masculinity is also vulnerability masculinity is hard work but masculinity is also relying on other people masculinity is being confused and trying to find the answer you know like and I think that what we've done is we've taken how masculinity might have looked 100 years ago we've said it's toxic and then we've said anytime that anyone shows any masculine traits in 2026 then it must be toxic and it's not true the reality is that masculinity and the role of a man has changed.

21:57We're trying to work out where we are at. You have to look at men in a new way, and I don't think a lot of people are. If we're looking at our place in society, I do think that's complicated for men. It was simpler before. If you take my example even, and yours, Matt, my wife works really hard. She does really well. She's incredibly popular. she does all of the stuff that she loves doing she earns lots of money so all of a sudden the necessity for me to go out and do that is only personal to me she doesn't need it so it's sort of like even though my aim is to go out work really hard and provide for my family that's not really, it is what I'm doing but it's also not what they need it's not what she needs she needs me to be a present father and you know somebody that is around and on hand to be with the kids and to help her which of course is something that my dad would have just never done because he's in the office he's working he's not there that's not his role and would never have felt bad about that because it was required it was the necessity but nobody would have even batted an eyelid he was a bad parent for example and I'm not saying that you know anyone's suggesting that I'm a bad parent but it is quite difficult when I'll go out in the morning and I'll train really early and then we'll go and work all day and you're trying your absolute best to find ways to earn as much money as possible so that we can all have a free and amazing life and you come home and your wife's still out working.

23:35So it's kind of like, right, okay, well, I'm on kids' duty in Bath and all that's fine. That's not a problem at all. I love spending time with my kids, but it's kind of, we're both doing two big roles and it can feel like quite a lot. so it's just interesting the next question is how good have you become at hiding your struggles I mean that's probably pretty good for you Matt pretty good for me I'd say yeah I've got a fucking PhD in it I think it's one of those things it's like you know it eventually just tips over Do you know, the cup just becomes too full that it just tips over. I thought I became really good at hiding.

24:23But I suppose looking back on it, it was, one, didn't serve me at all. I was never truthful or honest about anything. I just couldn't be. I didn't really know what that was. I think it's not until I started therapy, really. I kind of stopped performing. I mean, I think that was my thing is I was always, it was a performance act of I'm alright, I'm killing it, I'm doing alright you know, like I'm this guy, this wacky guy or like feeding into these ideas of what other people wanted me to be and it's not until I started therapy that I really kind of went, oh actually, how do I feel? and I never really asked myself that question The strange thing about the drinking as well is that when you get to the stage when you know it's wrong or like socially acceptable and you do it anyway, that's when you're in, for me, like the really murky territory of, I kind of really feel like a drink, but I'm not going to express that to anyone because I know it's quite early and I wouldn't want them thinking I'm drinking, so I'll just have the drink and then I'll hide it.

25:34I went through a lot of that. I'd walk past a pub and it would be, I'd just pop in quickly, have a quick drink, boom, and then I'd kind of just ignore the fact that I'd had a drink and then that might happen again. And then later when you're with your friends, oh, should we have a drink? And then you've got away with it. So I used to do that all the time. There'd be more drinking than there actually was on paper. And then all of a sudden you're a bit pissed, but nobody else is pissed. And it's kind of like, well, why is he pissed? He's only had like two days, but I actually had like eight. Everyone thinks you're lightweight.

26:07And it's kind of like, it is dishonest. I find it actually really easy to be completely open and honest about everything when I'm not drinking. Because there's nothing to hide. There's nothing to hide. There's nothing to be odd about. I've had moments even recently where I've kind of felt like I was slightly hiding how I'm feeling. you know like there's something about me like if I'm if I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed or like things are getting a bit heavy and a bit hard I still have something in me that doesn't want to tell people I love really like still now like I won't tell Emma exactly how I feel you know are you alright yeah good good so because I never tell yeah really no yeah but not intentionally yeah so Harriet will say to me what's going on you seem a bit quiet or a bit distant and the truth is I'm thinking of a million things that are going on that are worrying me.

27:06Yeah. But I still have this voice going, it's not her problem. That's exactly what I feel. Your shit. That's exactly how I feel. So lay there and deal with it. And it's so hard to describe this to people because when you kind of get found out and they go, and Harriet will go, why don't you tell me stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of want to say, look, there's no intentional, I don't go to, my brain doesn't go, I really want to tell you this but I'm going to decide not to tell you my brain doesn't even go to the point where it says oh maybe I should tell someone this I don't even realise that I'm not telling anyone does that make sense it's not an intentional hiding away of information I'm not purposely lying no it's not like I'm just like I just don't want to burden someone it just sits inside you yeah yeah well omitting omitting your truth in my opinion is not the same as lying yeah yeah so I think omitting certain and details that would certainly be considered lying is lying.

28:02But keeping something to yourself and not sharing it. How often do you feel overwhelmed? This is a paid advertisement by BetterHelp. We have raised men to keep things in, to not complain, to not show weakness, to just get on with it. And suddenly we're asking men to open up, but no one's ever taught them how. And what happens then? Well, it builds stress, it builds pressure, it creates anxiety, and it comes out in ways that we don't want it to. You know, 60 % of UK men signing up for BetterHelp Online Therapy cite anxiety as the reason. 60%. That is why I know therapy matters. Not because something's wrong with you, but because it just gives you the space to actually put words to what's happening in your head.

28:42And for a lot of men, me included, when I first went to therapy, it was the first time I'd ever been able to do that. And that's why I'm so proud to be working with BetterHelp to kick off an initiative that I am personally very excited about. We want to encourage men to say it louder and get comfortable opening up. Society taught you not to, and now society asks you to do it. So it's time we learn to lean on each other, to open up and measurably change the future of men's mental health. This is about taking that first step in a way that fits into your life. So when life feels overwhelming, I know therapy can help.

29:15Sign up and get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash performance. That's betterhelp.com slash performance. and stay tuned for the next three months as we talk more about Say It Louder. I mean, I go through waves. I mean, right now, quite a lot. I think I've taken on a bit too much in my life. So I'm kind of like... But then I have this other voice that goes, well, you just need to get through this patch because then it'll be chill then. And I've been doing that for about a year. You know, so I'm like, I might need to stay, take my foot off the gas a little bit. But, and then I think, well, I've got myself in this mess.

29:55I don't want to burden anyone else with it because I'll just go, well, you did it to yourself. Have either of you ever tried just like communicating everything to your wives? Yeah. Because it is quite refreshingly nice. This came up in therapy for me. It's kind of like, well, have you told Virg exactly how you feel about this? And when you're just like in bed chilling, why don't you just say what you're saying to me now? and I've tried it a few times it works, it's nice I wouldn't say I'm the kind of person that's regularly overwhelmed but I certainly find that if I don't tell her when things are going wrong in my life then it does creep up as a surprise whereas like I always encourage her to do exactly the same thing if anything's bothering you not even with me, just share it with me so that I know because if you bottle it up and you hold on to it and it gets worse and worse and worse and then there's suddenly this explosion.

30:54I'm in the dark. I don't know what's going on. And it's kind of the same with me. So now I do make an effort sometimes. I'll get into bed and I'll go like, oh, this happened today and this happened today and I'm working through it, but I'm sure it'll be fine. So she's aware of it, just in case anything blows up. I'm going to try that. It's nice actually. To feel like you're in it together. I'm in this weird world where Harriet is brilliant at advice. Every time I speak to Harriet, she comes up with something and I'm like, oh my gosh, how do I? why don't I see the world like that? But then I unintentionally don't tell her everything that's going on.

31:28I just get on with it. And I kind of feel like I'm in this really interesting place where I've never had an exit from a business, so I've not got loads and loads of spare cash flowing around the bank, right? So therefore I have to work hard. And all the businesses that I'm involved in, as I've already said, I own them, so I have to work extra hard to keep that going. And then my parents are getting older, My kids are getting older. Life's never felt more expensive. I'm getting older and I have all these little physical things that you start to feel. And it's just this squeeze in your 40s, late 40s, that no one ever warns you about.

32:02But things are just not as free as they were even five years ago. But I also feel like I need some kind of reward. When I left school at 18, honestly, I promise you, I have worked every single day I've woken up and thought, right, I'm going to give 100 % today to get myself somewhere where I'm going to get loads of great rewards at the end of this. And I'm now 30 years into this journey and I'm starting to think, when does this come? It'll come, Baba. I hear people say that your 40s is amazing because you give less fucks. I'm like, I give so many fucks. More fucks than I've ever given. More fucks than I've ever given.

32:44That's interesting. What does it cost you when you just keep going and push through? I mean, I kind of feel like I'm doing that right now. You know, I feel like I'm kind of like, I'm in Cabaret at the moment in the West End, and so I'm doing stuff during the day, and I've got a show in the evening. We do eight shows a week. So also I'm filming a documentary with the BBC. The thing is that I did make my own bed, right? So now I'm kind of like forcing myself to lie in it. Because I had commitments like On The Men is a massive commitment to me, and I love it. And I'm also filming an addiction documentary with the BBC at the moment, which was all tied up in a very tight timescale that I have to finish in.

33:24And then I got this role that came through whilst the band was on tour. It came through last minute. It's a dream job, like the role that I've wanted to play, emceeing cabaret since I saw it like five years ago. I'm very happy to be in it. But that's like, so I'm working all day long from like 8.30am till about midnight, seven days a week, which is I'm feeling a bit I'm feeling the pinch a little bit right now but then so I kind of I have this this holiday with my kids to Disney World which I'm sure won't be a holiday which will be very stressful and intense but I will love it and it's good because I literally was like I did that stupid thing where I was like don't worry you're not going to see me for four months but then I'm going to buy you a holiday you know so love me you know and this fucking so that's playing on my head as well and then yeah so I feel like I'm I'm exactly what this question is about.

34:20I don't feel great about it all. I feel like I'm missing a lot of things at the moment. And I think that's the answer to the question, is what does it cost you when you push through? I think what it costs you is what matters. Yeah, that's exactly it. A few years ago, I had an interview with a guy on high performance with a guy called Shane Parrish. And if you'd have looked at my life outwardly, I was doing Champions League, Premier League, running high performance, running the whisper group, stuff was good. It was like everything was in the modern way in which you would measure someone's success.

34:52You'd say, well, that's great. And I just felt totally... And I said this to this guy, Shane, he said, well, show me your diary, which is on my phone. So I showed him my phone. And he went through it and he goes, cool, like what do you love, like what really matters? And I said, time with the kids, time with Harriet and a bit of time to play paddle with my mates or walk the dog or, you know, just go and watch Norwich City play or something like that. And he goes, great. Where's that in the diary? And I said, well, it's embarrassing to put time with your wife or kids or time for yourself in your diary.

35:19That's an example that you've fucked your life up somehow, right? And he said, not at all. He said, everything else is in your diary, so why is the stuff that matters not in your diary? So he described this concept of pay yourself first to me. And he said, on a Sunday night, sit down and pay you and your wife together, pay yourselves. Decide then where's the stuff that we want to do. And because urgent stuff will always come into your life. it's important that the urgent stuff doesn't always get rid of the important stuff so you need to put it in your diary and it doesn't move and it's non-negotiable and then you can still be crazy busy and lots of stuff going on and it's like woohoo but it's those few little things is where your happiness lies and I think we get tricked into thinking our happiness lies in our business success or whatever and it often isn't where the happiness lies I used to think hardware matters now I'm not sure I think we've been responsible on high performance for actually some mistakes where we've lauded high performance too much.

36:13Really? I think we've told the world that it's really important to work hard. But maybe you've taken that from a kind of work perspective. What about working hard on yourself, working hard on your mind, pushing yourself in the gym? I think, you know, I've been very, very, very unhealthy and obviously I'm, you know, pretty healthy now. And I think... I think it's where the element of high performance is to do the whole thing. But you have an addictive personality because you were addicted to alcohol and now you're addicted to exercise. It doesn't mean it's... Being fit and healthy is healthy. Being addicted to fitness and health isn't necessarily healthy.

36:49Yeah, but what's the difference in exercising a habit regularly and being addicted to something? I think if you're exercising... There's consistency, right? If you're exercising to remove demons or to give yourself calm... I don't think I ever say to myself, I'm going to go to the gym to get rid of the past. like you know I go to the gym because I like being well but is there not I think that's an interesting thing isn't it punishing yourself a bit maybe I don't know from time to time maybe I think so naughty what do you think is stopping men from opening up what I think is stopping men from opening up embarrassment shame and embarrassment stigma stigma of therapy perhaps yeah looking weak I think looking weak also who to open up to I think it's all very well and good saying men should talk but who do they talk to you know it's about picking the right person I think at times do you know what I mean I think that most people would I think there's less fear about going to see a therapist than there is about opening up to people in your life yeah but I think if speaking to a therapist feels like a way bigger step than speaking to a partner or a friend so I think it's like there's more fear attached to someone who's already in your life but it feels much less of a big deal like to actually say I'm in therapy I think it's a scary thing for a lot of men to say I kind of think that's a bit of a shame.

38:09It's stigmatized, isn't it? Because I would think the opposite. I would prefer to go somewhere or jump online and have a conversation with a stranger who's a professional and then just shut the laptop rather than open up to... I open up to my family and people I love when I feel like I need to, but I still think that I would see the therapy as like a professional transaction. Yeah. you know like it's not and that works for you you're not taking any risk and that works for you like that feels you can jump on and you can literally just like spew whatever you need to say right and it's confidential it's private it's not going anywhere you know it's kind of you don't need to run the risk of kind of you know if your head's in you know really somewhere a bit wayward you know you don't need to run the risk of anyone having an opinion of what you're saying you know or taking it the wrong way or having it affect them or having them feel in some way responsible.

39:07You know, I've had that in the past where you say how you're feeling and, you know, all of a sudden the very empathetic partner that you have thinks it's their fault and it's like, oh God, I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying, you know, how I feel. So it's better to have the, to just leave it in the room, I think. Yeah, I learned that quite early on because I went into a therapy session early into recovery and I walked down and he sat down and he was like, how are you doing? I said, I've been thinking. He went, that's dangerous. and I started to go on and he went Matt can I give you some advice he goes never go inside your own head without an adult present I was like that is a fucking great line and I need that I was about 24 you know and it was a great line I've really kept to that because sometimes I'm like if I start to kind of go in there and start to think about things I can make things so much worse so where do you go then because you're not in therapy at the moment so who do you speak to today but I'm very having this conversation has made me very aware of how much I need to do it right now I think so so yeah I would go to a therapist do you think this though feels a bit like therapy yeah it does it feels nice do you know I think particularly already already no literally sorting you out already I can't wait to breaking you down psychologically Jay's taking sabbatical after that what we've realised from this is I basically want out yeah exactly I am done exactly I don't know how to get out you're out both our podcasts are fucked here's a question right your kids are younger than how old are yours?

40:42they're 7, 5, 4 and 1 on the way in September fucking hell wow mine are 16, 14 and 9 what's a 16 and 14 year old like as teenagers? is that a big change? easier or harder? I got told this everyone always told me because I was like my kids are really cool right they were really good kids and everyone would always say oh just you wait just wait until they're teenagers I waited they're fucking great they're cool kids that's a lot to do with you and Emma though by the way but they're also like they're just yeah they're just cool kids so would you if you went into therapy would you tell your kids yeah I did last time I was in what was the reaction they were like cool but I think we're quite open and also I've been very open about me you know and luckily they haven't seen too much carnage of me.

41:34So they know it from like an observer, kind of like a storytelling way of what dad used to be like. But I don't think there's any, there's definitely no stigma in my house about that kind of stuff. What do you do for your mental health? Do you know what? Something that I've been really keen on is a thing called Yoga Nidra. It has changed my life. Yoga Nidra? Yoga Nidra. Sick. Sounds cool. Sounds sexy, doesn't it? Yeah. Basically, it's kind of yogic sleep, right? So it's like you follow a script, you put headphones on, you lie down. It's like meditation, but you kind of go into this kind of sleep-like trance, but you're awake, and you kind of focus on different parts of your body.

42:17This sounds a bit woo-woo and a bit like, how do you do that? How do you switch your brain off? But I've tried so many different types of meditation, and I never feel like I'm getting anywhere with it. This, I don't have to feel like I'm doing anything. I just lay down. I focus on different parts of my body and then half an hour has passed and I haven't thought about my crazy head for half an hour and I just think about like you focus on your fingertip then your other finger then your other finger and it tells you to do that it'll say like focus on your fingertip what's the idea that it just frees your brain from yeah from the spinning out for a while from the chaos oh really you know it's just a complete like reset what do I do I exercise by the way I wouldn't say that I'm addicted actually it's interesting right I'm not addicted to exercise in the way that I was addicted to alcohol and drinking.

43:00You lose control of that. It's not like if my day is busy and I don't have time to go running that I'm going to freak out. Like it's kind of... Really though? So if you're on a training plan and you have to miss your day... If I'm in a training plan, it's a bit different. I like Jake was talking about, I would diarize my training plans. I would get in touch with YMU. I would say these runs are non-negotiable. Or like we can move them, but they have to happen this day. Okay, great. I love lifting weights I love lifting weights I lift weights three times a week at least with a friend of mine I've lifted weights with him for maybe 14 years his name is Sean Stafford I know of him he's a wonderful that's a good guy to lift weights with beautiful heart lovely dude, just an amazing guy I love spending my three hours a week with him first thing in the morning, Monday, Wednesday, Friday if I'm able to and it really, it does a lot for me that.

43:57And even on like when I'm away and there's no kind of gym and like I run every day, it's not quite the same. Like if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with weights. I just feel, I don't know. It's really, really good for my mental health that. Like if I go four or five days without lifting, I'm noticeably a little bit aggravated. Jiu-Jitsu is a good one as well. I don't train anywhere near as much as I'd like to. I used to train five times a week. Then I got into these larger challenges and I didn't want to hurt myself before doing them and they take months to prepare for. So I just stopped rolling a bit.

44:33But there's another incredible guy with an amazing heart called Paxton Gibbons who's a black belt, third down black belt under Hodger Gracie and I roll with him and he is like a Sean. He's just this incredible presence and person and a really amazing guy and that's a wonderful thing to get into as well. Something that I would advise anyone to get their kids into is jiu-jitsu. It's funny when you talk about this because the two things that bring you the most joy in those things aren't the running, which is solo. It's the being with someone else. It's that connection with another human. Do you feel that?

45:04Yeah. Even running with somebody is better than running with someone. Yeah, I do a lot of solo running. And like anyone else, you can't pretend that it's that exciting. It can be quite boring. If you're doing a nice tempo speed session where you really have to be on it, it's a little different. to it. Yesterday I went for a slow cruise on my own. It was boring. It can be boring. I listened to an Untapped episode actually. I hate my voice. Really? Yeah, I was listening to it and I was just like, I sound shit. That's interesting because that aligns with the feedback from the audience. Ollie Patrick's amazing though.

45:39Those episodes with Ollie Patrick are great. He's so good, isn't he? I'm having a go at something for the first time. Making friends. Right. Which is an interesting thing for me because I've always not really lived in this world where I've needed or had like loads of great mates. And traditionally, I've been jealous of guys when they've gone, oh man, I love hanging out with my university buddies. Or I love it when I get together with my old schoolmates. And I'm thinking, I don't have any. How have I missed? I don't have any. See, I feel the same. I've lived this transient life. Like I look at like my 40th birthday party and I haven't seen most people from it because it was just full of people who I was working with at that time.

46:13And my brain was, I mean, there's a few friends there as but my brain is like oh they're your friends oh okay now I realise that they're just my work colleagues it's so like sorry to I honestly don't mean to bring this straight back onto me but it's my 40th not next year the year after and for some reason Vogue and I were talking about it the other day randomly and she was like who would be like top of your list of your friends to come to your 40th and I was just like I rattled off like three people and then I was just like I haven't really got any other kind of close mates and then obviously you sit on it and you go oh of course like them and them and them and them and but like you know initially it was just a bit like oh what encouraged you to start therapy what's the biggest misconception and what actually happens in a session uh my friend put me to bed one night and i thought he was coming around to chill with me and i i was incredibly drunk and he walked in and i couldn't i could barely kind of sit up straight and he literally just walked in put my arm over his shoulder walked me to bed lay me down and left didn't say a single word and i was just lying in bed thinking oh my god yeah and i was just like and i was like man are you coming are you coming door shut and i was like oh my god um so i i sought therapy after that so my my reason for going to therapy for the first time was was alcohol abuse uh and like loneliness really like alcohol abuse the two went hand in hand like i would drink during the day and when most people were working so i didn't have anyone really to drink with.

47:41It was all quite sad, actually, at one point. When I think of the last time I went to therapy, I went to therapy because I went to rehab many, many times, so I kind of was forced into it. But the last time I went to therapy on my own, I was in my car and I was driving and I didn't have anything on. I didn't have any music on. You took any clothes. I had nothing else to drive. Make it driving, go to therapy. Go to therapy, go to therapy. I was just alone in my thoughts and I suddenly just went, Oh, I'm a little bit sad. And then I noticed it, and then I noticed it again, then I noticed it again.

48:17And I was like, oh, that's hanging around. You know, like it's not like, there was no reason for it. Nothing had happened, no kind of like, no sad thing had happened. I was just like, oh, that's maybe becoming my state when I'm on my own. And I was like, oh, that's something I need to kind of get checked out. So I went there, and literally within six sessions, I was like, oh, I realise what that is. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. and then I worked on it for a bit and it was gone. Brilliant. Mine was when, so I had a real weird period in the early 2000s when I had these mad intrusive thoughts.

48:50So I just basically thought that horrendous things were going to happen and that I was going to do the horrendous thing. Is this like when you walk past an oven and you imagine putting your kid in the oven? Yeah, exactly. That type of thing. Yeah, or when you're driving a car and you think, what if I just steered into the central reservation? Now imagine living with that all the time. You have that? I did. 24-7 and everything you see, you think, what if I just did this? What if I just did that? But then you think it's real. And it feels so real that you can't imagine it isn't real. Wow. So, and this is a long time ago where there's nothing like BetterHelp and conversations like this were not happening.

49:24Yeah. So I did not know what to do. So for two years, I would lay in bed like sweating. My wife, girlfriend at the time, would be like, why are you soaking wet? What's going on? I'd be like, I don't know, I'm just a bit hot tonight, can't sleep. And I didn't want to go, well, for the last two years, I thought I'm going to do something absolutely insanely crazy. And I couldn't talk to anyone at work about it because it's like you can't be a kids' TV presenter and mental. Those two things don't marry up. So that would have cost me my job, I would have thought. And there was nowhere to turn. I eventually did.

49:56I was reading the mirror one day on the tube, going back from Children's BBC back to my flat, and there was like an 0898 high-rate number advert in the back for a psychologist, and it literally said, are you suffering with mental health problems? Call this number. it's the best thing I ever did I'll rang this number yeah and it was like you know those like £1.50 a minute phone lines lovely and this bloke answered and changed my life he went hi and the voice I can still hear his voice now it was the most reassuring thing I've ever heard in my life and I told him what was going on he said you need to he said this is really highly treatable you need to go and have some therapy so I've tracked down this lady called Ruth who was incredible and I went in to speak to her and two things she said to me she said the first thing is if you're the kind of person that's going to do the things you're worried about Well, you wouldn't be worried about it.

50:39You would just do it, thinking it's normal. So you're normal. You're not abnormal. There's nothing wrong with you. She said the second thing, all the pain is coming from you fighting these feelings, thinking a non-real thing is real. So you're fighting, fighting, fighting. She said it's not real, so stop fighting it. Just accept that strange thoughts, particularly, she said, particularly young men, which I think is really interesting. She described it as an existential period that a lot of young men and men go through. She said, men have this and think it's real, and that's why suicide rates are so high and why so many men struggle.

51:12She said, you need to accept that this is just literally imagination and nothing more. Let it go. And that was it. Wow. And it was 20 years ago, and I've not had a flare-up, a recurrence. I feel mentally exceptional. But if I hadn't been on the tube and opened the newspaper that day, who knows how that might have ended up. what's the biggest misconception about therapy and what actually happens in a session? I was always worried about, I thought they were going to go into really dark stuff, you know, like kind of find traumatic moments in your life and really kind of go deep into them. And I was like, it kind of felt to me like Pandora's box.

51:52I was like, I don't want to open that, you know. And that wasn't my experience at all. It just wasn't. Like we didn't have to go to anything. I didn't want to, you know, and like sometimes we'd go some places and I'd go, oh, wait, wait, wait. you know and it was kind of like much more much more open dialogue I was always worried they'd try and place blame so like I like when I first went to therapy I was always worried that they'd be like how was your childhood and like try and blame my parents or my mum on my alcoholism and that would like drive me nuts but then obviously they never did that I had really weird therapy the first time like I actually loved it I think he was either a controversial style of therapist or just summed me up straight away.

52:34I'd like to think the latter because it makes him, you know, a more powerful kind of therapist, I suppose. But yeah, I came in and he, I hadn't drank that day because I, like you, was forced by John Knoll, the agent to go and see Chip Summers and walked in and I was sober at the time. I had drank the night before, but I'd purposefully not drank that day just so that I could be sober for the meeting so that he could report back to John that there's absolutely nothing wrong with me and you know i'm fine and i sat down he goes god you reek of booze and i was like i haven't had a drink today and he was like when was the last time you drank i was like last night he was like whiskey was it i was like yeah and uh and he was just like god as soon as you leave i'm gonna have to open the windows here so the next uh patient doesn't think i've been drinking you know and he was quite horrible to me like initially like for the first kind of 15 minutes like like quite aggressive on the like how disgusting i am and uh and i can remember thinking was that a tactic yeah well well no i think he probably could smell whiskey on my breath but like you know he did go quite hard i can remember thinking like it was a big mix of like you know do i just sack this guy off or should i take on board that maybe this is how people see me uh and it was the last you know i left and we agreed that i wasn't going to drink for seven days and I'd see him again at midday on you know next Wednesday and uh and I left and I thought you know um do I just do I not care about that or like do people see me that way like when I go for a job or a meeting like do people just think I reek of whiskey and look like a fucking loser you know and I thought well just just in case let's do the let's do the week did the week and ended up doing six months and you know we became very very close I even brought a friend of mine who had a drinking problem to him as well.

54:18And he went over for six months. Like, it was a really positive time, you know? Great. My biggest one was I thought it was more than just a conversation. I thought it was going to feel like a huge thing. Yeah. And I remember walking out with the first one thinking, well, that's weird. I've just had a chat for an hour and a half. Yeah, yeah. Surely this doesn't lead to anything. Yeah. And I like the fact that it felt like nothing. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. It's nice. It doesn't feel like a big thing in your week. It's just like, oh, right, I've got a few meetings. There was no diagrams.

54:45Have a game of tennis, have a bit of therapy, then have some dinner. It feels like nothing in the nicest possible way. Final question. Final question. Here we go. How do you talk to your kids, especially your sons, about their feelings? And what do you want them to know that you weren't taught? How do you talk to your sons, your kids, especially your sons? That's really interesting. I definitely find it harder with my boys than I do with my girl. Really? Yeah, yeah. I notice that. I have to remind myself as a parent to try and be more equal with them. I find it much easier to wrap my arms around my daughter and tell her that everything's going to be fine and that she's safe and she needn't worry and nightmares aren't real and the BFG or whatever was on the Tony isn't real and give examples of other stories that Roald Dahl's written that aren't scary and it's all make pretend.

55:41And I'll take her upstairs into bed with me and let her fall asleep on my chest and stroke her hair and make sure she feels all of the security and the safety and the love. I don't do that with the boys. Really? Far sterner with the boys. I've made a few mistakes in the past where I've said something and I've realised what I've said, which sticks with me a little bit.

56:07I remember we were on holiday once and we were kind of diving off the side into the sea and we had a hoop. So we were kind of driving into the hoop and he was scared to do it. And I really toughed him out to do it. He didn't want to do it. He didn't want to dive into this hoop. He was scared. And I made him do it. Because I was like, oh, this is an important lesson. Parenting's mad. But I went into kind of like, this is a transformative moment for him. I am going to fucking dad him to death. you know I'm gonna like that and it was such a fucking wrong thing to do and now you think why does it matter if he dived into a hoop or not who gives a shit you know like it wasn't a big deal you know and I was like it is now though yeah I mean it's now he said it's first it's gonna come up in therapy for him you know I remember this time yeah exactly yeah I think that's a massive fear of water now you won't dive into anything none of us will feel like we get it right guys I loved that yeah I really loved it we should do this more often.

57:13Yeah, it's been nice. Thanks, guys. I feel like I've got friends for the first time. Look, I hope that you took something away from that. And if something's landed in this conversation, please just sit with it, think about it, don't scroll straight past it. We talk a lot on this show about what it takes to actually perform at your best. And the honest truth is you can't do that while you're carrying stuff that you haven't dealt with. It will eventually catch up with you. It always does. And therapy is not a last resort. It's not something you do when you've hit rock bottom. It's actually a space to think clearly, to talk honestly, and to actually work through what's going on so you can show up better.

57:48Better for yourself and better for the people around you. If you're ready to try therapy, BetterHelp makes it simple. It's online, it's flexible, there's no judgment. Just go to betterhelp.com slash performance and get 10 % off your first month. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash performance.

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