Tim Spector: Debunking the myths around exercise and nutrition (E266)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. Food is the most crucial choice we make in our life. The studies have been done a really clear cut that people overeat by 25 to 30 % when they're just fed ultra-processed food. If we got everyone from who's on a bad diet to the optimum diet, we'd reduce chronic diseases by 70 to 80%. out. That is Tim Spector. This is High Performance, the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey. And on this show, we learn from the stories, the struggles and the successes of our guests, allowing us all to find high performance.

0:49And what matters more than nutrition when it comes to finding our edge? Well, Tim is the ultimate expert. He's spoken on plenty of shows, but you're about to hear things about the human body and about gut health that will blow your mind. Enjoy. But first, a few quick messages from our valued partners who allow us to offer you this content for free. I've got some exciting news for high-performance app members. We're releasing two episodes early every week for free, starting from today with Great Britain's most decorated Olympian and a former England goalkeeper and Premier League winner. Head to the app right now to watch next week's guests exclusively before anyone else.

1:58www.epwork.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Always so fresh, delicious, and nutritious, Eggland's Best Eggs fuel the body with six times more vitamin D, 10 times more vitamin E, and 25 % less saturated fat compared to ordinary eggs. Visit egglandsbest.com to learn more.

2:23This episode is brought to you by Opera Air, the first browser with mindfulness at its core. Now, most of us spend hours every day online, but how often do we pause to take care of ourselves whilst we're doing it? And that's where Opera Air comes in. It's a lightweight, fast, secure browser built not just for productivity, but for your well-being. With Opera Air, mindfulness is built right in. You'll find free breathing exercises, guided meditations, and soundscapes with ambient sounds, lo-fi music, and binaural beats, all designed to help you focus, relax, and even spark creativity while you browse.

3:01well tim thank you very much for joining us great to be here tell me in the line of work that you're in what do you believe high performance to be 10 years ago it would have been about reaching the top of your profession being you know getting these academic papers out that everyone said were great or other scientists and sort of making a splash as a doctor and a scientist and now I think it's all about reaching millions of people and improving their health and are you doing a good job at getting that message out to people so that it's not just about me and my health but does that message get out to millions of people and I think that's really how I've changed and view whether I'm doing a good job or not.

3:53And of course, obviously, I need to look after my body and mind to do that well. But in a way, it's part of that bigger picture. It seemed maybe trivial things. I remember one of my best papers I ever had, articles, perhaps seen by a few hundred and cited by a few hundred scientists, but what I ate for breakfast on YouTube has been seen millions of times and has a much bigger impact and therefore I've changed my mind on what delivering performance is. And so it's doing more of the same, experimenting on myself, doing things, but then ultimately it's, can I make a difference to other people? and I think we live in the most exciting time for having these kinds of conversations you've spoken on hundreds of shows you've spoken for thousands of hours on this topic but I'd love to know the thing that you still are frustrated by what is the thing that we're still not getting that you really want us to understand

5:10I think we're still in the idea there's a quick fix for everything I think it's a natural human trait that we want the quick, you know, go. It's this, you know, the single exercise that you do. It's the, you know, if you do these 10 press-ups or you do the take these vitamins or you go on this keto diet or you, you know, do a cold water swim or whatever and it's all done. Rather than saying, well, we've actually got to... Everything's got to be long-term because all these effects are long-term. And I think that it's changing that mindset and how you can still do things short-term like, you know, have some snack that you know isn't very healthy one day, but you've sort of planned that, you know, for the years ahead, that's going to be rarer and rarer.

6:16And it's this short-term versus this long-term vision, I think, is really hard. And it's hard for everybody. But I think, you know, and that's what we're trying to do. And I think it's one thing, if I could sort of, change all these things about health and fitness and longevity, it would be much more this longer-term approach. Yeah. And I think we can understand the whole quick fix mentality. One of the things that I'm frustrated with, though, and when I first got into podcasting, I loved the fact that you could have nuanced conversation, deep conversation, you could debate things. But I think this desire for a quick fix means that so many podcasts and podcasters have gone, right, we need to work the algorithm here, right?

7:01That feels to me what's happening across the board. And I think you've been a victim of some of these. And I just wanted to share a couple of headlines with you and get your thoughts on them. So one of the well-watched episodes that you've been on is a headline, calorie counting doesn't work. Let's just break that down because I know it's created a lot of debate. So first of all, calorie counting doesn't work. Is that in itself true? At a certain level, if you wear your scientist hat on and you're looking at studies, you sum all the studies where they've put people on calorie counting diets or reduced calories long term and they follow them up for a couple of years, you find that 80 % of people go back to where they were.

7:52So there's only one in five people benefit, four out of five people have no benefit and some get worse. So you could sort of argue, on average, there's no real benefit for most people. But if you take it on an individual level, you could be lucky, and you might be that person that can sustain it. But you might also be very unlucky, be that one person that bounces back so much that they're actually heavier having done that period of fasting. So, you know, all these headlines are summarizing lots of nuanced data and ignoring the individual. But that's just the way science up to now has worked. And it's also worked the other way, because people in the past didn't question the idea.

8:46And they assumed that if you believe calories in, calories out, All you ought to do is, you know, just check. Oh, my calorie is a bit lower today than yesterday. I used to have one banana a day, and now I'm going to have half a banana a day. If I do that for a year, I'll lose weight. That doesn't work like that. So, yes, so you can take these headlines either way and use it to support or refute any argument. And I meet people who say, well, actually, I'm one of those people that still does follow a calorie controlled diet and it's helped me but they are the minority so when people come to me I say yeah well that's fine my training as a scientist and an epidemiologist is to summarize all the data and try and play it back in ways that you can then give general advice to people who might have thought something different So, you know, I'm not upset that we had that debate in those conversations, even if the tagline irritated some people or confused some people because hopefully they then listen to the discussion like we're listening to it now and saying, well, yes, okay, you know, if there's 100 people, then you will have 20 people at two years who might still be below the weight they did after that intensive dieting.

10:20But 80 of them will not. And of those, 20 will be, you know, more obese. So is it not the case that if you consume less calories than you use, you lose weight?

10:36That is still true. but your body doesn't let you do that because it's not simply a furnace that you put energy in and it burns it in a simple way. You've got this sort of gearing mechanism that changes it that once you're getting less calories in, the rate at which you're burning goes right down and your body's conserving that. So that same equation when you started that diet is very different. The same is true with exercise. So whether you're losing weight through calorie restriction or through exercise, your body, by evolution, has been trained to conserve energy. Through most of our evolution, we haven't had 24-7 snacks everywhere.

11:34Oh, we'll get on to snacking. But evolution is very much there to conserve our body weight, our reserves of fat, our muscles. And so after exercise, it says rest. So you send signal to your brain, rest, slow everything down, slow your metabolism, don't burn things up, conserve it all. And that's why when you see, you must have seen this, people doing successive marathons across the US or whatever. The first week they lose weight and then it just absolutely flattens. And it's not like they're eating more. Their body adapts. And that's what we've been missing from this debate is how clever the body is at adapting and fighting loss of calories.

12:23And it does it both by changing metabolism, but also by ramping up hunger. The trigger in the brain says, you've got to eat more, guys. You know, we're losing valuable reserves here. And when you look at that snack food, your appetite signal will be ramped up 30%. And so you just say, should I have that extra biscuit? Yes or no? And if you've been exercising or you're on a calorie restriction, you're more likely to take that extra snack. So that's why it's much more complex. and that's why this simplistic idea of calories in, calories out doesn't work in practice. So for people listening to this thinking, well, I keep an eye on my calories and I exercise, but I'm not losing weight.

13:14What is the thing that they should change? Because they're already mindful about what they're eating, I guess. I like the idea of calorie counting because it's a bit like having a budget. Having a budget doesn't make you richer, but it does make you mindful about the money that you're spending. And I kind of think of calorie counting in that sense. I know it doesn't tell you about all the other amazing nutrients that you need to live your life, and we'll talk about your gut microbiome in a minute, but I do see a benefit to calorie counting. Well, I see it as a major enemy of food quality. Right.

13:48The people who love calorie counting are perhaps, you know, exceptions like yourself and other people that have successfully done, The rare people have done successfully calorie-restricted diets,

14:04but it means you're not talking about the food quality. So everything is about calories, and the food manufacturers love this idea that you can quantify food by its calories, which means you can change anything else in it, add any kind of crap that's in there, all these chemicals, and all you're doing is reducing that calorie count. And we now know that studies have shown that these ultra-processed foods, even with low calorie, are actually, for reasons we still don't understand, increasing your appetite signals. So you can have low calorie foods and you say, okay, I'm having 30 % less calories today.

14:44I'm going to have all these low calorie foods. You've done your calculation. What you didn't calculate for is that by doing it, your body's ramped up your hunger signal by 30%. So inadvertently, you're going to eat more at your next meal, or you'll be hungrier, so you want to eat more, and you get into a vicious circle. So by focusing on calories, you're ignoring all the other important things about food that we used to eat, which didn't used to be a problem. So when we had masses of fiber, that filled you up, even more than protein. and most of people, 95 % of us are deficient in fiber. And so just by having fiber, which is generally in less processed foods, you'd be getting less of your hunger signals.

15:36So I think we've got to start thinking not just of this energy and energy out, but also those mechanisms of firstly, what's it doing to my hunger? My feeling of fullness? When's my next meal is? and what's it doing to my metabolism in terms of wanting to rest or not do something else, make me sluggish, lose energy. And so once you move away from that and you move to quality, I think it becomes obvious. We've just published our key paper which was comparing the traditional view of diets that you're espousing in these, you know, in the UK and the US, these guidelines which say, you know, count your calories, have a bit of extra fruit and veg, have some, you know, starchy vegetables, a bit of meat and fish.

16:38We've compared, you know, over 300 people randomized to that diet or to the Zoe diet, which essentially is personalization based on your sugar responses, but really pushing gut health, plants, polyphenols, food quality, not talking about calories at all. And the Zoe group did better in virtually everything we looked at over this six-month period. the calorie counters did initially drop weight but by six months had basically gone back to baseline because of these hunger signals whereas the other group reported less problems with hunger they had more energy, their mood was better all these other things that are part of this holistic package of food that if you reduce it to calories you're ignoring the mental health problems, the hunger, the energy, all these other things that when you do these straightforward trials, you start to see.

17:50So that's a very long answer to your question, but that's why I'm not embarrassed about saying calorie counting is rubbish for most people. But I think it's also, as a concept, so reducing food to energy. And food is so much more than that. Food is the most crucial choice we make in our life. If we got everyone who was on a bad diet to the optimum diet, we'd reduce chronic diseases, you know, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, diabetes, dementia, everything, by 70 to 80%. But long term, if you ignore food quality, you're not going to be in great shape, you know, when you're in your 60s and 70s. Well, let's talk then about food quality.

18:46I want to really have a conversation that means people listening to this or watching this can finish the episode and have a really good idea about what they should be putting in their body. So when you talk about food quality, what do you mean? I mean eating real food and you'll say what's real food then it's whole food minimally processed that still looks like the original ingredients and we're talking mainly plants and it should look like the plant it shouldn't just be some chemical powder or a vitamin supplement it shouldn't have lots of enhancers to it to change its flavour to change its mouthfeel to change its texture, to glue it together to give it colour it should be the original components and the general rule is it should be good for your gut microbes because we've evolved with them over millions of years so that they feed off the food that we give them and they produce really cool chemicals for us.

20:11So that means what they like to eat is what we should be eating. So they like to eat variety. They don't want to just have frozen peas every day. Nothing wrong with frozen peas, they're really good, but they want variety. So we've estimated from our studies, 30 different plants a week is probably the optimum to strive for. And it's not as hard as you think because you've got nuts, you've got seeds, you've got herbs, you've got spices, and even small amounts of them, very concentrated, will keep your microbes going as well as your taste buds. Then you're looking for other things in food that you don't get in ultra-processed food, these polyphenols, these defense chemicals.

20:55and we increasingly realize that the foods that are packed with these defense chemicals end up being good for us. Things that we thought were bad. So we thought coffee was bad for you. I'm drinking coffee all the time now. You know, I stopped drinking it because we thought it was bad for your heart. It turns out it reduces heart disease by 30 % because of the polyphenols and the fiber in it, which reach your microbes probably work that way. Then you've got other things, olive oil, you've got nuts and seeds, you've got berries, you've got bitter things that we've grown, we're not eating as much of.

21:34So the broccolis, the spinaches, all these things have lots of these polyphenols, even dark chocolate, red wine, things that you wouldn't have assumed are good for you because of this new science we're turning out are. Fermented foods are the other thing that are good for you. And we hardly have any... We might have the occasional yogurt or a bit of cheese in this country. But we can see trends changing. And I think some very... You know, you just look at what you can buy in London now compared to five years ago in the fermented food range. You know, suddenly... You're talking kimchi, sauerkraut.

22:16Sauerkraut, yeah. You know, all my local shops now have this. They didn't five years ago. so having those regularly is really important for your gut microbes and we believe your health and we're again we've got some studies coming out on that we did in the community so a lot of people benefiting on their immune system by having these regularly and then it's you know other things i think how we eat as well is important so we've become a you know nation of snack lovers and eating six or seven times a day, often late at night, end of the telly, you know, you just have a bicky and a cup of tea or whatever, not leaving your gut time to recover.

23:03And there's increasing evidence that if you can concentrate your meals into narrow periods of time, not only metabolically you're slightly better, but more importantly, you've got more energy, your hunger levels are less, and your gut microbes have improved. So, you know, eating more proper meals less often rather than eating in the car or, you know, any time of day and just being a bit more mindful about trying to let your gut rest just like you give your own body rest, I think, are important. And finally, it's reducing our reliance on ultra-processed foods from the current levels of about 60 % of our calories in this country and more in kids down to something like 10 % levels of most Mediterranean countries.

23:59I think if we do that, you know, we'd all be super healthy. So let's talk then about the gut and how our actions impact the gut. When we say the gut, what do we mean? What are we talking about here? We know the part of the body where it is, What actually is in there? Well, we don't even know the part of the body because most people don't have a great knowledge of anatomy. It's, you know, it's between sort of six and eight metres of intestines and it's not the stomach. Most people think of the gut as the stomach because that's where, you know, you burp and you get reflux from and you can feel acid.

24:40That's just the very, the antechamber really. but the action all starts much below that. So you've got the stomach, then you've got the small intestine, which is where you absorb a lot of the sugars and food, and that's actually not small at all, it's very large. But then a bit below that, for real food, so all your ultra-processed food just gets absorbed in the small intestine, so mainly the sugars and the fats and things there. And it's the lower intestine where the fiber goes, where most of your microbes are. So that's really quite a long way down and takes a while to get there. And most of your microbes are in that slot.

25:24There's trillions of them. And they break down the food that's managed to get there if you're eating any fiber. If you're not, they'll be starving. But if they are, also, thank God for that. Let's get some food here. they break it down into chemicals they can use for their own energy so they can reproduce, have babies, and produce all kinds of cool chemicals for the rest of the body, particularly for the immune system. And they really control the immune system in a two-way process. So they're controlling allergies, how likely you are to react to something. They control whether your body's inflamed or not after stress, how you're going to react.

26:09do anything, whether it's food or exercise. They send chemicals to your brain to change your mood. They can lighten it, make you stressed or chilled out. And they interact with all the medicines you're taking as well. So depending on which ones you've got, they'll decide whether your antidepressant's working or your blood pressure medication's working or not. So it's like you've got this team of mini pharmacies inside your gut working 24-7 for you. And that's what I think if we started thinking about our nutrition in ways where we really focused on those gut guys, you wouldn't be talking in the future about, oh, it's all about calories.

26:59These guys don't really care about calories. is they want the key nutrients, the vitamins, the bits of fiber that they can... Why is fiber so vital for the gut? Because it's the sort of building blocks of many of the products that they're making. It's like the raw materials for these chemical factories. And the best foods that people can be eating for fiber? high fiber foods are things like the brassicas I mean virtually every plant has got some fiber except the iceberg lettuce right so it's famous for other reasons but most have fiber the ones that have the most are things like berries things with seeds in them So the reason berries and raspberries have fiber is because they've got lots of tiny seeds in them, interestingly.

28:00And seeds are like mini eggs, so it's full of nutrients. So it's things with diverse, different types of structure that they like because that gives them lots of different raw materials. Whole grains, beans and legumes have enormous amounts of fiber in them, lots of different ones. You get different fibers completely when you have mushrooms because they have a whole, because they're not animal and they're not plant. They're a whole other type of entity. And so it's this variety of these different things as well as, obviously, you get some from bread. Actually, most of our fiber comes from bread in this country, which is partly some of the problem.

28:45Because people will think brown bread, fiber brown bread, all bran. You know, that's how we were brought up, wasn't it? Yes, but the trouble is most of that comes with a lot of sugar as well and rather limited amount of fiber, it turns out, compared to what we need. So you'd get much more if we just had, you know, a can of beans, for example, would be much more than just having some brown slices of brown bread. So, you know, there's actually, you know, comparable amounts of fiber in coffee. to an orange juice. So actually, we're not thinking properly. We're very ignorant, really, about the sources of the good things in our diet.

29:33And traditionally, we've just said, well, that's good because it's got vitamins in it, or we've ignored this. And you can see at the moment, anyone who goes online or whatever, you're bombarded with protein adverts. and, you know, everyone's got a protein plus ever and yet nobody is deficient in protein. We're all getting far too much and we're either peeing it out or putting it on as fat. But most of us are deficient in fiber, but there's no money in fiber. So nobody is really pushing that because also the other thing, if you sell fiber, it actually fills you up. So you're not as hungry, so you don't buy as much of that product.

30:17There's some interesting stories about people who tried to add fiber to some processed foods and found that it reduced sales because you don't eat or drink as much. Someone tried to add it to beer, which I thought was a cool idea, right? A healthy beer. But they saw that people were drinking 30 % less because it filled them up. So we have this, whereas protein just as, you know, it hardly changes anything. You're just as hungry and you buy many more of these protein bars. And this is the challenge, I guess, is for the everyday man like me. I'm up against the companies that are spending billions of pounds to try and get me to buy their products, right?

30:58Along comes ultra-processed food to cause as many problems as we're trying to solve by knowing about the gut. So for people that eat a lot of ultra-processed food or who give their kids a lot of snacks and biscuits and crisps and things like that, I'd love you to explain to them what this ultra-processed food is actually doing to the gut. So what is ultra-processed food? First, edible food-like substances is what I like to call it. It's fake food. So people have taken extracts of food, ground them down into powders and added flavorings and other things and stuck them together again. And that sort of food is now 60 % of our diet.

31:46And the definitions are, it's made from extracts of other real food rather than just adding salt to real food. And the definitions vary, and then they're not precise enough at the moment for it to help many individuals. You sort of know it. If there's lots of packaging on it, it's got a long list of ingredients. And it's got often, we've added something to make it look healthy, or it says low fat on it, or for you, low calorie. You might be attracted to it, but it's likely to be ultra-processed. And so that means it contains glue-like chemicals called emulsifiers, artificial sweeteners, so they can call it low calorie or low in sugar.

32:30and these glues and these sweeteners and these colorants have negative effects on the gut microbiome. So lots of animal studies now showing that it disrupts the microbes in these animals and is more like to give them diabetes or change their metabolism, make them hungrier, do all kinds of things. There are some human studies to support this, still not. What's it actually doing then to those gut microbiomes? We think, well, we don't know. All the artificial sweeteners have slightly different effects. So there's about six different ones used, often in combinations now to make it really confusing.

33:18And some of them, they just inhibit some of the microbes and promote some of the bad microbes. So the good ones are inhibited, bad ones seem to like it. We don't really understand. The emulsifiers is easier. We think it makes the microbes stick together more because that's what they do in food, that they're gluing it together. If you've ever seen an emulsifier, it's like this porridge or an instant glue you're putting into the food that will bind it together. We think your microbes can't function normally when they're slightly stuck. It's like they're walking in treacle. And that means once they're under pressure, they might then produce different chemicals in response.

34:06So that's what we think happens to artificial sweeteners. And also, the microbes think there's something else going on, rather strange. They've never encountered these in nature, in evolution. They think they're under threat, so they might then produce chemicals that send alarm signals to our immune system and then heighten it as if we're being infected or something else. So that's the current theory of the gut level why it is. But there's also the idea that in virtually all cases, ultra-processed food has very little fiber. They're made from extracts of things. That means the microbes are sort of semi-starving.

34:49The good ones can't stay alive. We need these good ones to produce the good chemicals to keep the immune system going. So you've only got these ones relying on the occasional bits of sugar that are dropping down or other things that they can use. So you're changing a ratio of good to bad microbes. So that's the current idea of what's happening. And on top of that, you've still got this, probably a direct effect on the brain that is possibly because your microbes feel they're starving, that these ultra-processed foods make you hungrier, right? For the identical calories, because of the way they're structured together, and there might be multiple ways it happens, but the studies have been done a really clear cut that people overeat by 25 % to 30 % when they're just fed ultra-processed food.

35:49and they're designed to be tastier. So some of it might be the fact that you've got this perfect combination of salts and fats and things. But it could be something else actually in the brain that's saying, well, these are artificial things. Let's eat more of it because our equilibration system's been reset. And here's the real problem, I think, it's us against big business, right? Yeah, and they love, imagine a product makes you overeat it by 30%. Why would you change that product, right? Correct. You've got this podcast, you've got, oh, you can add this clip in and it makes 30 % more people see it.

36:32Yeah. Why would you voluntarily say, well, let's drop that? And this is the really hard thing, I think, for people, is to try and work out, actually, what do they go for here? You know, what do we buy? I just, I suppose I wonder if we can ever win. against big business? I think we can. 80 % of our food in the world is controlled by 10 companies. And I think it's hard to change. There was a recent poll. Nestle shareholders had a vote to say, should we reduce the number of really bad products we have and try and have some healthier ones? And only 11 % of their shareholders said do that because they were told, well, it might hit profits.

37:19So that gives you an idea. I'm not surprised, are you? No, but it's good there were 11 % of good people out there, rich people who had a conscience. At the point of the retailer, I think that there are some interested in healthier options and they'll do whatever the customer wants them to do. So if a customer wants organic, they'll get organic in. If they want it sustainable, they'll get that. They want it without plastic. And we've seen this. And the UK can change its food culture quite quickly. So we have terrible food culture. But the one good thing is it's flexible. We're not like the Italians or the Spanish or the Japanese and say, well, I'm not ever changing.

38:09you know 10 years ago no one had ever heard of kefir or kombucha now it's everywhere yeah more than in any other country in europe right um because customers want it and when there's a demand suddenly the producers will do it and the retailers will so i think the retailers can actually do things here and at the local level, I think you can make change. And if a few of these companies start to do it and competing with each other for the healthy end, others will want to follow. There'll be a sort of FOMO effect. So I'm much more hopeful than I was five years ago that there's enough people talking about this now, there's enough anger out there.

38:57Wow. And I just saw today, there's a bill going to the US Senate to say let's have a warning on these ultra-processed foods. So, you know, that's unimaginable. And in the UK, no one talks about having warnings on foods. Instead, we've got this totally mislabeling, which I think is the worst thing. If we can't trust the people who are delivering the food to the masses, when we both are well aware that almost the single most important thing we can do for longevity, health, vitality, happiness is what we eat, what hope have we got? Well, governments can act, and in other countries they are, and they're just saying to this, they just want to make money, right?

39:49They're a company. It's up to us as a society to say, well, you know, it's costing us billions. We've got all these unemployed people who can't work because of mental health issues because they're eating terrible food or all these obese children. Allergies are rampant. We can't afford this, all the taxpayers. We need to say, okay, first, don't allow them to have these false claims on it. Don't allow them to have children's cartoons, advertising cereals that are 30-40 % sugar. And then you go to the next stage, as proposed in the US and exists in other countries, and they have health warnings. So by all means, eat this food, but it contains really high levels of fat and sugar and it's going to make you overeat.

40:36You know, you're going to like to be obese and get diabetes, but tuck in. Should there be a ban on fast food advertising? In my view, yes. certainly to children.

40:52They have 200 times the budget of anyone real food and occasionally you get some token bit of advertising on TV that highlights fruit and veg. But that's just so they can carry on promoting all this unhealthy food. Or if you do advertise it, it comes with a health warning. you know, a bit like the early days of cigarettes. We've now banned cigarette advertising, but there was a time when it would come with a health warning. At the moment, alcohol now comes with a health warning. The consumer, who is not a scientist, not a doctor, we've got to protect them, and we've got to protect the children.

41:32You know, lots of parents are going to the aisle for the children's yogurt aisle and picking things, oh, this will be a little good for little Johnny, and I'd have that and some orange juice, because that's how I own vitamin C, and, you know, or we got some brown-looking bread. Aren't I being a perfect parent? And they're not, and they're being fooled, and that's, they're the kids we should protect.

41:59If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and the coverage on the nation's largest 5G network. Honestly, the quality is just as good, if not better, than what I had before. And the best part? You don't need a new phone. You can keep your current one, bring your number, and all your contacts.

42:34I use Mint Mobile, and you should too. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch at mintmobile.com slash HPP. That's mintmobile.com slash HPP. Upfront payment of$45 required, equivalent to$15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow up a 35 gig on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

43:09Proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. You're invited to spend an evening on Fremont Avenue. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games. saints and sinners unexpected laughs and unspoken truths good times hard times and of course family always family so pull up a chair and join us at fremont avenue a world premiere play only at arena stage performances start october 8th tickets at arenastage.org

44:06If I was to put you in charge, what do you think is the thing you would want to change? What is the law you'd want to bring in that you think would have the biggest impact? Make every institution in this country have real food. So that's all schools, all hospitals, all government institutions, care homes. and you just say to them, you know, you've got to have 90 % real food. You can have 10 % cakes and biscuits, but 90 % of it has got to go back to healthy food. And that would have the knock-on effect on the rest of it. I mean, you know, we haven't talked about prisons, but part of the reason that there's so many problems in prisons is that they have, you know, the worst diet of anyone in this country.

44:56and that would cause huge mental health problems. So, yeah, that would be the easiest one to do because it's all controlled by the government. It wouldn't actually affect the general public at all. And then the others would probably be, you know, mandatory warning labels and then you go to... But then other things like tax are... I'd do it, but I think it would take longer. Part of the frustration here is that the answers seem so obvious. but I don't understand why there isn't a desire to do this. Well, politics, really. I think it's the idea in this country that we don't want to be a nanny state.

45:35But, you know, it's inertia more than anything and we can see other countries changing, other countries doing something. And when people realise that food is the most important choice we have in our lives and that we're messing up the next generation and we're going to pay for it. The whole idea of preventive medicine in the UK has fallen apart the last 10, 15 years. Everything's focused on hospitals. There's no primary care. There's no one to see to prevent disease now. We're just firefighting. So it's all part of this, but we're just refusing to take any hard decisions that will have these longer effects.

46:23And we'll look back at this period and say, why do we, you know, it's just like cigarettes. You know, it's exactly the same time. I mean, I remember when there was a whole debate on passive smoking and it seems strange now, but people, you know, you could smoke in restaurants, cafes, pubs, and, you know, when I went in my car with my mum, you know eight hours to cornwall she was smoking you know 40 cigarettes a day and that was normal and it took like 10 years of people saying well that doesn't cause the kids any harm it'll be fine you know small amount and now you know we're doing exactly the same with terrible food um messing up mental health and then the food companies spending billions trying to say oh, it's complicated, it's, you know, the tax is this, and, you know, introducing influencers to talk about the nanny state or mustn't interfere.

47:27It's exactly the same playbook that they've done, you know, all these big companies have done through any sort of social shift. They've delayed it because they'd have to change that model. But as they found out, if you actually ask individual companies, And I've done this. I had a meeting with all the UK bread manufacturers. And they all said, listen, we've tried to do healthier foods, but it isn't promoted by the supermarkets. The public don't really understand it. And we've lost money on it. So we've gone back to our regular selling point. But give us a playing field that's flat. we compete on equal terms with the others we'll all do it, we want to do it we'd like to make healthier products they need government So are the food manufacturers catering for what we want or is it actually a case of they are the reason why we want these things They're creating new foods all the time that are even more tasty and addictive than they were, you know, a few years ago.

48:49And if there's no limit to what they can do, it's exactly like, you know, cigarettes. They started adding sugar to cigarettes and menthol and things to introduce it to people who didn't like the bitter taste. So, you know, every year there'd be some other addition to make it easier for people to get addicted and enjoy those products. that's their job and until someone says actually there's a line to be drawn here you can't do that can we talk about the mental health crisis in this country there is no question or doubt that we are in the middle of one there's a really strong youth mental health crisis as well what is the link between the food we're eating and our mental health

49:36they're completely correlated so there are now big epidemiology studies done linking diet quality and symptoms of anxiety, depression and ADHD so epidemiology isn't causality but it's very much correlation and so there's a very strong argument that just like obesity, mental health is also suffering from this decline in food quality, which means decline in fiber, decline in nutrients, increase in all these artificial chemicals. So the data epidemiologically are quite solid and they've done trials where they've given people with depression

50:34high-quality diets that are meant to improve their gut microbes. It's a high-fiber Mediterranean-type diet versus a standard diet, and you get dramatic effects at six months in terms of improvement in mood and energy. So what's happening there physiologically? We don't know for sure, is the honest answer. but we do know that microbes produce a lot of the brain chemicals and if you either don't have fiber, don't have much, again, there's this concept of the raw materials for your microbes, they can't then produce these helpful neurochemicals and they might also, if they're not having their normal products, they might then think they're under threat or famine or something, and therefore put out sort of distress signals to the brain to think, gosh, I might be infected, something's going on here, you know, what's happening?

51:38Because they're getting these strange chemical signals, they're not getting their normal ones, and they send these chemicals to the brain that they're going to put it out of whack. And increasingly, there's an idea that the depression and mental illness is linked to the immune system as well. So it's quite a new concept. People always say, why are you depressed? Well, that's because I haven't got a job. But the idea that anxiety and depression are a body's defense system to thinking something's wrong and they need to just do something different, the body's under attack. And if you're having junk foods all the time, your body's inflamed.

52:24It affects your immune system. And your brain is probably picking this up. And so it's like you've got COVID all the time. Your brain is not thinking normally, it's in thinking in defense mode. For me, that's revelatory. Because I think in recent years, we've spoken about the fact that physical exercise is the most under-prescribed drug in the world. You know, if you're struggling with your mental health, exercise is almost the very first thing you should do. And if that isn't solving the problem, then you look at alternatives. I bet there aren't many GPs dealing with people's mental health challenges by taking a look at their diet, are there?

53:09Very few. And yet, you know, they'll go for the antidepressant, which only works in about a third of people. So two-thirds don't get any benefit. And this trial included people who were already on antidepressants and they looked at the effect size and the effect of a good diet was actually better than an antidepressant. So I think because antidepressants only affect one particular brain pathway and most people don't have a deficiency in that one. Whereas the diet can affect lots of things, not only by what it's giving, but also what it's replacing. So suddenly you're not getting those artificial sweeteners, those emulsifiers, these chemicals we don't know their effect on the body, but you're also getting these good nutrients so the good microbes can take over from the bad ones.

54:07So I think that's going to be a huge area for the future as we look at, you know, we make this link between mental health and diet much more than we have because, yeah, okay, up to now it's been obesity and diabetes, some obvious ones. But, and maybe a bit on food allergy because that's been another epidemic. But I think seeing what's happening in young kids and how many of them are in this vicious circle so that their mood goes down and they eat even worse food. I was literally about to say that. I've got a real weakness for crisps. Chocolate and biscuits, I could happily never eat for the rest of my life.

54:51Crisp is a thing for me. And I was thinking the other day, why do I sometimes go and just eat four or five bags of crisps? And I have linked it to maybe having a row with Harriet, my wife. Maybe having a stressful day at work. Maybe having some bad news or something like that. It's, there's no doubt that it triggers something in my brain and I just go and I feel a bit better. I get that instant hit. So you can absolutely understand that if the evidence is telling us that junk food is causing a mental health problem, how do you try and medicate for that mental health problem? You need more junk food to try and make yourself feel better.

55:30Yeah, because it will cause a bit of an addiction because you get some short-term relief. But it's making you long-term more and more unhealthy. increasing inflammation, increasing the inflammatory microbes in your gut. And there are some fascinating animal experiments that show that the microbes themselves can send signals to the brain to say, eat more crisps. Because the guys down here, they don't want any of their broccoli stuff. They want more junk food. Because we actually like living in this environment of stress and inflammation. Why? Well, microbes do, because it's like you've got all these different teams, you know, you've got thousands of different species in there.

56:17Some of them are super healthy, go to the gym, you know, have their greens, you know, and their smoothies. And the other guys just, you know, they're going to junk food restaurants, they're just picking up the fat and the gristle, and they like a different environment. So we have to eat to try and promote the good guys and reduce the bad guys. Can we talk about exercise? I was surprised with the headline, exercising doesn't help weight loss, that I saw related to you. That's, again, is that… Another podcast. Another podcast. That can't… I mean, before we talk about the impact on the gut, that can't be true.

57:00Exercise doesn't help weight loss for most people. Really? But I think the danger with that headline is there's a million other things that exercise is a brilliant for, so please don't stop exercising. Absolutely. No, I mean, I love exercise. I exercise every day. My mental health, my heart, fighting cancer, fighting aging. But I think it is important to get the message out that for people that in January joined a gym because they were getting a bit tubby and they're going on the machines and they're doing this and then they, you know, and about April they say, oh, hang on a minute, you know, I've actually gained another couple of pounds.

57:44This is a waste of time, right? I'm going to stop. That should not be the message. The message should be it's doing all kinds of good in other ways, but because exercise can make you hungrier and it can slow down your metabolism, for many people who think it's the solution to their beer belly it's not if you do it with dieting and you've lost some weight if you're exercising once you've lost that weight it does slightly help you keep it off so there's some benefit to exercise once you've lost weight building muscle though is also vital isn't it because that uses up more calories just everyday living to feed your muscles

58:34that's unclear just being more muscular because again your body compensates it's hard to trick your body into saying okay well I'm just going to have more you know because your body knows how much fat and muscle you've got it's not dumb you know you can't just trick it and say okay I'm heavy you know it's like well if I just go around you know wearing weights on my back as if that was fat, that was sorted all out. Your body's a very complex machine that's desperately trying to keep its muscle and its weight. It doesn't want you to lose anything. And also, it doesn't necessarily want you to be huge and big either because that's not necessarily super efficient.

59:23We'll come back to the gut then in a moment, but just to clear this up, because this is confusing for me, having spent my whole life thinking if I count calories and go to the gym, I will lose weight. If we're saying counting calories is a risk because your body adapts to the calorie deficit, therefore you store the fat. We haven't mentioned it. It's also incredibly hard to do. Well. If it's hard to do and it doesn't give us the benefit and going to the gym also makes our body adapt, so that isn't as beneficial as we think. I'm then sitting here going, well, this here, for those of you watching on YouTube, you'll see I'm pinching a little bit of fat around my tummy.

1:00:00we all have it what am I going to do for that? what's my answer? well it would be through diet but not through counting calories no it would be changing what you eat to fill you up more to improve your metabolism to reduce any inflammation in the blood so that your body isn't on this doesn't feel it's It's in a sort of attack mode all the time. To send good messages up to my brain. And, you know, increasing your energy levels, you're more likely to do things and be less, you know, sedentary. But I think it's all about the food quality. It's about people who switch, you know, to diets like the Zoe diet and suddenly having masses more fibre feel so much fuller, they're not hungry the next day, you know.

1:00:58doing things like working out what suits you. I mean, I know we talked about breakfast briefly, but most days I don't have breakfast at normal breakfast time like I used to. I'd either skip it or have it later. So I've got a good time period that I've got 14 hours where I'm not eating. Now, I'm the same. And then I read a study last week. People who intermittently fast have a 91 % increased chance of cardiovascular. disease. So now I don't know. Like, this mixed messaging is so hard. Well, that's, I mean, that's the fault of newspapers and journalists who are taking one study out of context. That's a perfect example.

1:01:40It hit the headlines. Yeah. A lot of people ringing me because they know I don't eat breakfast, saying, my mum, you need to eat breakfast. You've got to trust me. Because I will tell you that you never take one study out of context. You've got to look at the a whole lot, and there's at least 10 studies showing that either skipping breakfast or intermittent fasting improves metabolism and generally reduces hunger and energy. And there was... So this one study about heart disease, it was an observational study, it wasn't a trial, so it was much lower quality. I would just say it hasn't even been published yet.

1:02:21It was someone spoke at a meeting about it. so park that that will be one of ten and once you add them all together I think we'll find that as a red herring and part of it is you're more mindful about eating you're thinking I'm just going to eat everything that comes my way grazing throughout the day you hear the podcast someone offers his bickies or as you go out this morning you just grab something you say no no I'm going to do this so you end up probably eating less calories anyway and that's not a bad thing. You're sort of eating mindfully. So I think we can live with these different concepts but what I am urging people to do is if like you're going back to your, you know, there's this, just think of all the different things that you could do to just subtly change your habits that would last over years and decades to do that.

1:03:21and it's changed the quality of your food, having foods that fill you up more. It is being mindful about your mealtimes. It's not about eating super fast, you know, in front of the telly so you don't notice what you're eating. You know, you might have a problem with your crisp habit like I do, you know, so don't buy those huge jumbo bags. Or if you do, you know, make sure that you pour them out and little tricks like this, as well as, you know, you know, I do honestly believe as well as these tricks, we'll all be going down this personalized food route. So there will be certain foods you can eat that are less likely to make you hungry that other people will have different ones.

1:04:08Before we wrap up, there's two things I did want to discuss. The role that exercise plays in our gut health we were about to talk about, but also sleep as well. I think those are two things where we don't even consider of the link between the gut and sleep and the gut and exercise? What do we need to know about that so we can inform the way we live? Well, we know that everything is linked. So the more I research this, these things keep coming together. So yeah, whereas diet is the most important thing for our health, exercise is a pretty close second in my view. and is related to things like your exercise will determine your hunger and various other things.

1:04:56So they are closely linked in your energy levels, but whether you want to do exercise, they're linked to your diet, etc. Then, of course, you've got sleep. And so as you mess up sleep, not only you start messing up your gut microbiome, but you also get hungrier. so there are all these studies now that show that after a bad night's sleep not only are you hungrier but you're also more likely to pick sugary foods compared to fatty foods so your body again it comes back to this idea of this your brain after a poor night's sleep thinks it's ill that's the current idea and again it all comes down to this idea of we're in this of equilibrium between our brain, our gut and our immune system trying to work out what's normal and what's to keep us healthy so once one thing goes out the window then it's like an A we think our brain's a bit like an AI programmer that just gets the predictions wrong so on a bad night's sleep it's predicting all the input is like oh, God, this is terrible, you know, what's going on?

1:06:15I've been poisoned or, you know, whether you had too much to drink or whatever it is, it's saying we're under attack here. Let's just batten down, you know, eat lots of sugar, you know, stay under the duvet, you know, have low energy and whatever. It's kind of weird when you start thinking about your brain as this autonomous organ in your body, which I've started to do recently. But they are all linked, and you can change the microbes of animals by changing their sleep patterns. And our microbes have their own sleep pattern as well. So everything on the planet has some form of circadian rhythm that it needs.

1:06:58And that's why if people on shift work, for example, who are eating all night will mess up their gut microbes, and then that messes up their sleep, that sleep signal then alters their energy levels and immune system. And so the whole thing is all very integral. So, yeah, sleep is really important. And it's linked with food and with exercise as well. So that's why exercising in the middle of the night is not a good thing either. So there's good times to exercise. What are the good times? Well, that's an interesting question. If you speak to the physiologist, they'll say probably peak performance is afternoons.

1:07:43This is not my area of speciality, but we've got some data from Zoe that some people, you know, that there are morning people and evening people and different times of life and that your performance might vary. And also we know that your sugar spikes vary at different times of day. So I suspect that whereas most people would have a slightly better performance in the afternoons, if they're real professional athletes, some people would do better in the mornings just because they're different. And it's like some people we've found have higher performance when they're not eating in the morning and they do sport.

1:08:27Whereas I was always taught, you have to eat something before you do exercise, right? That was the tradition. and I now don't, I always do my sport in the morning without eating and I'm so much happier whether it's a long swim or it's a cycle or whatever. I find if I eat breakfast, I'm hungry all day. Whereas if I delay my eating, by 2pm I can feel not hungry quite regularly. And that's all to the, and you see this once you've got a glucose monitor on you, you can start seeing what your body's doing in real time and I think we just haven't got used to listening to our bodies because we've assumed one size fits all.

1:09:02One diet fits all. One exercise regime fits all. Everyone said, this is how you do it. In this modern age now, I think we're seeing much more of this personalization of life. And I want everyone to go away and really experiment, you know, and think about how do I feel like three hours after my meal? How do I feel like three hours after my workout? You know, what's my body telling me? And not just do the same as your body or what your trainer says, try different things. I think that's a really exciting bit of science. And if we can't afford Zoe, how should we view our day to work out what is and isn't working for us?

1:09:43Well, keeping a notebook or voice recordings. Of how we're feeling, what our energy levels are like. Exactly. Because strangely, the biggest effect we saw with Zoe was on mood and energy improvements. and anyone can measure those. You don't need fancy equipment. You just need, so, okay, what's my mood and energy levels? 0 to 10. I'm going to record it, see how I feel on, say, different meals or breakfasts or exercise regimes or whatever it is. So if people just kept a logbook, this is, you know, to do Zoe on the cheap, you have a rough idea of what it is. It's all about listening to your body.

1:10:25The key is to make that connection in your brain, how important it is to listen to your body, and how we're all different. And how some people are going to be perfectly well with a muesli breakfast and exercising after it. Others are going to have a very different approach. What do you think, or maybe just for you, what a good day of nutrition looks like? Because I'm still sitting here kind of confused really about what to put in my kids' lunchboxes, because you've got to find little things that fit into a small space. and those things tend to be, you know, a little bit of a processed meat stick or a small bit of processed cheese or some rice cakes with a bit of chocolate on or some crisps or pre-made cake in a packet.

1:11:08It's a hard thing. So maybe if you explained what a day looked like for you nutritionally, that would be helpful for people. Okay, well, today I've only had black coffee, right? It's not what time we are, about 11.30.

1:11:27I'm going to go home and I'll probably have my late breakfast which for me would be full fat yogurt never get anything other than full fat why mess with a good product enough no evidence is any different for your heart the two things and you've got all the nutrients fills you up more a live yogurt live yogurt yes Most of them are, right? But get a good brand. And I actually add in kefir to that, because kefir has, most yogurt have two or three microbes. Kefir has between 10 and 20 microbes. So you're getting many more different species in there. I have my own sprinkle jar of nuts and seeds, which usually have about 10 different nuts and seeds in there.

1:12:23I'd just add that on top. And in the fridge, if I happen to some berries or some fruit, I'd cut up and stick on that. That's my go-to breakfast with my health drink black coffee. And then I don't really have a set pattern because I'm all over the place, but my main meal tends to be in the evening. so I might snack on fruit might have a salad I do batches of soup vegetable soup if I'm working at home and just have a thick chunky soup I tend not to have I worked out the bread gave me really bad sugar spikes and hunger so I make my own rye bread or I buy rye bread it's about the only one that I find doesn't do that So bread is a treat.

1:13:21I still love it. And really important not to treat this like being a monk. You know, I think you've got to do stuff that you're going to carry on for years. So if someone offers you a nice, freshly baked, you know, crispy thing in a restaurant or whatever, it's so tasty, you're going to have it. But you realise it's a treat, not having it three times a day. Then at lunch, yeah, I have plant-based foods. I do most of the cooking at the moment because I'm experimenting for the cookery book, my new recipe book coming out. And they're mainly plant-based with lots of different plants in them. And they can use cheap ingredients like different beans and lentils and chickpeas.

1:14:07So it can be vegetarian lasagnas or bean dishes, casseroles, mushrooms. So I'm primarily vegetarian. I have meat once or twice a month. Right. Why no more than that? Because I used to be strictly vegetarian. I started getting a bit of B12 deficiency. So rather than just taking tablets, I find doing that works for me. And I still enjoy the occasional bit of really good meat. But eating meat on a regular basis, I just find boring, and it's terrible for the planet. So the biggest thing we can all do as individuals is not give up our cars, it's actually eat less red meat. And to some extent, fish as well, which is now no longer sustainable.

1:15:02And just have them as treats. So I think, also the other thing is if you had meat every day, you haven't got enough room for those 30 different plants. So sometimes it's not about anything wrong with meat, if it's high quality. We know ultra-processed meat is terrible for you. But high-quality meat, probably not bad for you in moderation. But, you know, there's no, if it's a big steak, all you've got is room for your chips. You haven't got any fiber and other stuff. So that's changed my whole philosophy. And so plants are the center of my food. You know, there's no foods that are off the table.

1:15:41because in their own context, they can all be super tasty. And it's also important that we keep the enjoyment of food. We realize it's social occasions, it's bonding with people. You go to someone's house, someone's office, you know, they've spent a lot of time doing this. You know, you're not going to say, well, I'm not eating this, it's all rubbish. You know, I think you've got to work it out and you're going for the long game. If you have, you know, once a month you have a bit of salami and it's good salami, that's fine. Just don't have it every day. Most of the ham, it's poor quality. It's been injected with all kinds of stuff that you see when you heat it up.

1:16:22Like with the bacon, you get all these chemicals leeching out. Once you read about it a lot, you really don't want to be eating too much of this stuff. That doesn't mean that once a month you don't have a bacon butty because there's something special about that. My fridge is full of fermented foods, which my wife hates, because every time I open it, the smell. Yeah. I'm always getting told often, people are always sending me more samples. So especially, I probably need a whole fridge of my own. So three times a day, I'll be having some fermented foods. So I talk about yogurt, my kefir. Generally, I'll have some sauerkraut or kimchi added to my dishes more and more.

1:17:05Just a spoonful? Yeah. Don't eat much. Or if having cheese in the evening, you know, having that on the side, just a tablespoonful. It's little and often, that's what fermented food does. Tops up those microbes and increasing evidence that's really, really powerful immune medicine for you as well. Brilliant. Right, some quickfire questions. What are your three non-negotiable behaviours that you think are most important? Okay, so three things in my life that I couldn't go without, I'd say, would now be my coffee, because it's a health drink. And even in the evenings, I'm having decaf, and that's still good for me.

1:17:49My fermented foods, I now love. And I didn't. I had to train myself to get to like them. And I have them all the time. I'm always trying new ones. and I know my gut loves it and hates it when I don't get enough when I'm traveling. And third, I think, is me discovering new foods and ways of cooking. And it's just a fantastic world out there that I'm only just getting to grips with and it's so much part of being human and enjoying it. When it comes to either your gut health or your nutritional health, your physical health, your mental health, What do you reflect on as the single biggest piece of advice that you found helpful or that changed the way that you thought about the world?

1:18:39I think knowing that the choices you make every day on your food are the most important choices you make for health. When you look back on life, whether you're 70 or 80, start making those choices now because you want to be as healthy as you can possibly be when you're in your 80s and now you have the chance to do it. If you could go back to one moment in your life, where would you go and why? It would probably be, knowing that my father was going to die, I'd probably had a good chat with him. So one of the big regrets is that he died when I was 21. I wasn't that mature, and it would be lovely to go back with hindsight and just spend a day with him, ask him all the questions I would have done.

1:19:31and I think that's what I've learned in my life. But everything else I've been pretty happy with. What would be your first question for him? What drives you and what makes you happy? And finally, for the people that have had this really fascinating conversation, I feel like I've learned loads. What would you like to leave them thinking about your sort of one golden rule, if you like, for living a high-performance life? If you believe in something, try to get as big an impact from it as possible. and get as many people to listen to it. And yeah, I'm just loving what I'm doing at the moment. I can tell.

1:20:11Tim, thank you very much.

1:20:15Well, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. Please hit subscribe, hit follow where you can. By helping to grow our audience, it means we can attract even more incredible guests to the show and have conversations that will change your life. I'd love you to reach out and let me know what you thought of this conversation with Tim Spector and make sure you join us again for plenty more from High Performance.

1:21:04We'll see you next time. includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just five dollars only at mcdonald's for a limited time prices and participation may vary at capella university learning online doesn't mean learning alone you'll get support from people who care about your success like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve you'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University.

1:21:42Learn more at capella.edu.