Tom Aspinall: The Fear Every UFC Fighter Hides & Learning To Use It As Fuel (E351)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. mentally, and this is going to sound really brutal, where you're willing to die in there because that's how bad you need to want it. That is the voice of Tom Aspinall, the UFC interim heavyweight champion, and in his own words, a man willing to step into a cage with the most dangerous unarmed man on the planet, knowing one of them might not leave conscious. This is Tom, like you've never heard him. In fact, I don't think we've ever heard any fighter talk like this before, Damien. No, he talks really candidly about the role of fear, how he's learned to control it rather than let it consume him when he steps into the octagon.

1:06He's spoken about why he's willing to pay the ultimate price of dying in the ring to achieve success. And he also talks about how diamonds are formed via pressure and how pressure has helped him become an even better fighter. As well as that, he opens up on being broke, providing for his family and his dad's unshakable belief in his son's abilities. Also, keep listening to see what happens when his dad gate crashes is the interview and of course we talk about Jon Jones, you don't want to miss that bit. If you're new here, can I ask just one thing, please hit follow on Apple or Spotify and it means we can continue to give you these kinds of conversations totally free.

1:44Right now though, get ready for an unforgettable conversation with UFC champion Tom Aspinall.

1:53Well welcome to High Performance Tom. We're here on a podcast called High Performance and you unfortunately can't call yourself the highest performing heavyweight in UFC at the moment due to the presence of Jon Jones. How do you feel about that? What are your thoughts on addressing that? Well, I'm trying to. I can't do anything else. I'm trying to pick a fight with him as much as I can but at the minute I'm unsuccessful. So yeah, that's what I want. I want to be called. See, we have a thing in MMA where it's different to boxing in terms of there's one champion at every weight One guy, everyweight division.

2:29Whereas boxing, you have different organisations and stuff. There can be like four, five, even six sometimes. World champions at everyweight. In the UFC, we have one. But in my division, we have two, which is weird. I don't like it. Jon Jones doesn't want to take the risk at the moment. So I actually have a meeting tonight about it. So we're going to find out what happens tonight, believe it or not. What do you think you can do to make that fight happen? Me personally, I can't do anything. like I think it's just down to money on his side so I will fight whenever whenever wherever he wants but it's down to money I think you say he's afraid to take the risk what do you mean by that?

3:09I just think that at this stage in his career he's had an amazing career I just think that he's like 37, 38 years old but not only that he's got a million miles on the clock so he's got a lot of damage on the body he's took a lot of shots to the head and that's not me saying anything negative about it That's the reality of it. And I'm sure John Jones is aware of that. When you put him in with, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I'm literally the most dangerous guy in the UFC if you look at the stats. When you put him in with a guy of my size who has them credentials at this stage in his career, I think John's a smart guy and he realises that, so he wants compensating financially for it.

3:46And how does it feel that you constantly have to address this topic? Oh, I'm well bored of it. I've had enough. we either need to fight or I need to move on and do something else and like I said I'm going to find out literally today is the day that I've been waiting for three, four months for and I'm going to find out today what's going on Would you mind explaining to us what happens then when you say today's the day do you all get together in a room is it done over a video call does he get on the call and you get on the call No, no I never speak to him personally it's done so you've got Dana White who is everybody knows Dana White he's the face of the UFC the last meeting I had Dana was actually there, which is the first for me.

4:24Usually it's done with another guy called Hunter. Hunter stays in the shadows a little bit. He's the guy who all the fighters speak to directly. So tonight will probably be Hunter. I'm not sure if Dana's going to be there or not, but Hunter is the guy who does the deals. And we just go in a room, chat. It used to be done over the phone and stuff, but with the bigger fights, it's usually, when you talk about world title fights, usually done face-to-face. So we had a meeting in New York about it a few months ago, and now we're here in London about to have a meeting about it tonight. What's discussed in those meetings?

4:57Because you want the fight. So it's very simple from your side. What else happens? Well, this is what I don't understand, to be honest, because they actually said to me that we're going to discuss the plan tonight and they're going to give me the full breakdown. And for me personally, I've now attended UFC fights and I've had, however, many other fights in my career as well outside the UFC. I've never been given a plan before it's just like this is the date let me know the location when and I'll show up so this is really rare for me I don't know what to expect I'm really interested actually to see like what is this plan?

5:34do you know what I'm like there's two guys I'm one of them I'm in what's the plan? so I'm interested I don't know what I'm interested in though is like the clear eyed evaluation that you've just offered us you describe yourself as a dangerous man in MMA you talk about John with a level of respect that he recognised what he's good at but also the weaknesses if the plan tonight does materialise and you and him do meet how do you think that fight will go? I think John is amazing at MMA that's one of the things that draws me to the sport so much is why I'm so obsessed about it it's because you're constantly chasing perfection but you're never going to get it no one's ever going to be the perfect complete fighter but John in my opinion if you look at his body of work over the last 15 years he's like as close as you can get to perfection as possible that being said he's got a lot of miles on the clock and he's fighting one of the most concussive punches in UFC history I just think I can exploit it like I think to get out the way of me for 25 minutes at this point in his career without getting hit once and that's all I need is one that's going to be very difficult for anybody I think but where do you think the threats to you will come from?

6:43what me threatening him? no as opposed to what do you think he can do to you oh well he's got a lot more experience than I do he knows how to stay in there he's fought guys similar to me before he's had these plenty like massive fight experience where I've only I've only made a vat in the UFC like 4 or 5 times now he's done that for the last 15 years do you know what I mean so that stuff from the outside looking in you probably think oh that's a lot of rubbish like what's it just a fight but being in those situations those high pressure situations in those massive fights if you've been there a lot of times before in comparison to someone like me who's been there four or five times before it does make a big difference and I'm aware of that I'm completely aware of it but that's where he has the advantages the experience let's talk then about the psychology if this fight comes off you going into a fight that is career defining for you that you've not just had to wait your life to take part in but you've had to fight for the last few months and years to try and make it happen how present is fear the moment that fight is confirmed?

7:45Well, I'm actually one of the rare UFC fighters that I'm aware of that will sit here and look you in the eyes and talk about fear because a lot of UFC fighters like to pretend they're not scared. Now, I basically spent my life in gyms and backstage at events and in these changing rooms. And listen, I'm yet to see a person who isn't scared. But it's very rare that you'll get a UFC fighter who will talk about fear. Now, because it's a taboo subject. people want to be this big alpha guy, don't they? Who's like, I'm getting in there, having a fight in a cage with somebody. Listen, if you're not scared then, you're either a complete idiot or you're lying.

8:25Like, I'm willing to step in the cage with, we're talking about John Jones here, who is the most dangerous guy to ever fight in MMA. So I'm talking about potentially the most dangerous man, unarmed on earth, right? Who I'm potentially going to fight with. Now, if I'm sat backstage, stage getting my hands wrapped knowing that he's over the opposite side of the arena getting his hands wrapped we're both going to walk into the arena in front of 35 000 people with millions watching around the world and one of us is going to get separated from our consciousness quite literally and you're not scared of that then like i said you're either a complete idiot or you're just lying so fear is extremely present in what i do

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10:53It was Custamato, the famous boxing trainer, that said that fear is like fire. You can either use it to heat you or you can allow it to consume and burn you. So it's great that you're willing to talk about it. What's your relationship with it like? well I used to have a terrible relationship with it because I used to think like I said it's a very taboo subject fear in MMA people don't want to talk about it with these macho cage fighters who are like savages and gladiators and all that it's a lot of rubbish it's just a sport at the end of the day it's scary it's a scary thing to do so I used to watch interviews of all these other guys and think I'm different because I am scared and these guys aren't scared and it's only as I got up there in levels I realised like it's okay to admit that you're scared and do it anyway.

11:39To me, that's like well more, I don't know. Like I would be more scared of someone who says that as opposed to someone's really switched on mentally if they go like, listen, I'm really scared, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm going to come and kick your ass in front of millions of people and I'm really scared doing it, but I'm going to do it anyway. I think that's like some like badass thing to do. You've shown your physical strength, right? There's no doubts about that. To tell us that you're scared and you'll still walk forwards into that fire, into that heat, that's a true mental strength how do you keep walking forwards what do you do I'm interested in the kind of mental gymnastics if you like at this point so you're getting your hands wrapped that fear starts to rise I'm interested in actually how it does feel but then how do you make it a fear that heats you rather than a fear that burns you oh well with great difficulty usually it's something that I've practiced for a long time a long time like I used to have two fights I say it all the time I used to be fighting my opponent but fighting myself mainly trying to push that fear away and I just realized after a bit like this is never going to go away because before like pre-UFC when I was like even pre-professional fighting when I was like an amateur fighter and stuff I used to like watch UFC fighters and think I can't wait to get to that level because these guys like have no fear and that'll just go away but what you realise is the higher in level you go the more pressure is on you like the more's at stake especially when you start talking about like me I'm a dad of three at one point I was absolutely skinned I had no money and I was trying to like provide for my family.

13:07Like there's a lot on the line there. Do you know what I mean? So fear's there. And I think the main thing that I do is I just try and embrace it and enjoy it. Because when you're like an older guy, like grandfather age or whatever, I like to think that's what I'll be telling my grandkids about. Now, a lot of the times I was like wishing those moments away. The hand-wrapped moments, the walking out moments, the stood in the cage, waiting for the referee to get out of the way. and tell you to go. Like I was wishing all this away and just having the fight over with and they're very, very special moments and there's a very, very few people walking around on planet earth who are privileged enough to be able to do that, to privilege enough to be able to sit in a chair and tell the grandkids about it one day in 20 years time or whatever, that this is what I used to do.

13:56So why not try and enjoy them? That's really something that I've focused on, especially like these days. I'm not saying I'm going to retire anytime soon or anything because hopefully I'm not. but I'm aware that I'm closer to the end than I am the beginning now. I'm on like the second half of my career now. And I think it's about time that I started enjoying it rather than trying to fight this fear all the time. But take us to the heart of that darkness, though, because I've been in the tunnel with fighters in that moment where it's an old saying, isn't it, that a fight is never won then, but it can be lost.

14:27So I'm interested that you talk about learning to embrace it and enjoy it, but tell us how you do that. Like, what is it that you say to yourself that reminds you to enjoy something? Well, I do a lot. I do a lot of stuff. Visualisation's massive for me. I think a lot of people, when I talk about visualisation, they think I'm sat there with some weird music on and crystals and all that. That's not what I mean. It's just simply daydreaming. Mental practice of going through the walkout, standing in the cage, getting the hands wrapped. By the time I'm actually physically doing it, I've done it mentally 10 ,000 times.

15:01So that's massive for me. Do you manifest the actual fight? No, not really. just more how I'm going to feel. So it's like, I could get in a spot now where I'm thinking about it, where I could almost feel what I'm actually going to feel when I'm fighting. I've done it that many times. And what is it you want to feel? I want to feel that fear. That's what I want to feel because that's when I know... See, fear's a very... It's not always a negative thing, fear. And people think it is. For example, a friend of mine, he's a skinny fella, he won't mind me saying, he's a smaller guy. he was doing something with a wardrobe in his bedroom.

15:38His child was in the room. He was like an infant at the time, like wasn't even walking, like six, seven months old. The wardrobe fell somehow. I don't know if he was moving it or what. And he immediately picked the wardrobe up off the child, moved the child out of the way. Everything was fine, whatever. Anyway, after he picked the wardrobe up, he went to move the wardrobe again over the opposite side of the room. and he realised that he couldn't move the wardrobe on his own because he wasn't strong enough. But when that fear happens and there's danger, he doesn't even think twice, the wardrobe's moving regardless because the fear's present.

16:15Same if somebody's chasing you. Someone's chasing you, for example, and you're scared. You're going to run way faster than you are if you're just jogging down the street. And I think a lot of people see the fear as a negative, but your senses are so heightened when you're scared like that. it makes me personally twice as sharp. I don't spar very well in the gym because if I'm going to get my arse kicked in the gym, the only people who know about it is me and the guy who's kicking my arse and a couple more people who are going to be watching. Whereas if I get my arse kicked in a fight, everyone and the dog is going to know about it for the next, it's going to be out there forever.

16:54And that brings a lot of pressure and fear, which makes me perform way better than it does in the gym when there's 10 people watching. When in your career have you felt the most fear? Every fight's worse and worse. Oh, wow. It gets worse as your career goes on. It gets worse. Now, that's something I wish someone would have told me 10 years ago because so my last fight was bad. Bad, bad. Because I was fighting in Manchester which is where I'm from. I was fighting a guy who I got injured against who I technically got lost to. Curtis Blades. Curtis Blades, yeah. I was defending an interim title which is really rare people were saying that was a pointless thing to do like there was just so much weighing on it and not only that I think when you're fighting in your hometown in front of 25 ,000 people who are there to see you win that alone just brings a ridiculous amount of pressure so yeah the last one was the last one was bad So how do you detach yourself from this pressure to be able to go out there and perform?

17:57That's what elite athletes do That's the elite of the elite right there because I've seen so many, I don't want to name names, but there's so many people who I've sparred with in the gym. And I'm like, this guy is the next best thing. He's incredible. Like doing all kinds of amazing things in the gym. Like we just spoke about, like that's when it's easy when you're in the gym. That's when no one cares about it. As soon as them lights go on, Bruce Buffer's there introducing your name. there's 25 ,000 people screaming and the referee moves out of the way and the cage door closes it's way different than it is in the gym way different and it's the same on a running track it's the same on a tennis court like the elites make the massive decisions in a split second under enormous pressure and that's for elites only See, when I was working as a football presenter I'd be sitting there with the elite of the elite you know, Paul Scholl, Stephen Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Rio Ferdinand and I would say to them best player you've ever played against.

18:59And they would often name a player that you wouldn't put in the top 100 players in the world. And they're like, but on the training round. Like, I can't even tell you how good they were. But the minute they were in a stadium, the minute the cameras were on, they collapsed, they melted. So it's not unique to your sport, as you've said. You know, they saw it in the world of football. What makes you the elite of the elite? What stops you from being the guy that crumbles in that moment, do you think? Awareness. I think. I think awareness. Of? what we just talked about, that fear can help you. And I just wish that when I was coming up that more people would have spoke about it more openly because there's a guy who came way before me, GSP, which in my opinion is the best MMA fighter to ever do it.

19:43And he spoke openly about fear and just watching his stuff and speaking to him personally because I know him personally now just helped me like so much, just like, and just being like around my dad and stuff, like it's always, the focus is on enjoying it. And I think MMA in particular, such an ego-driven sport, you don't only like football, for example. You lose a football game, you might lose 2-1. There's 10 other people on the pitch you can also share that blame with. You're also probably going to play again in the next week or two and redeem yourself. If you get knocked out in front of millions of people, not only are you losing, which is pretty grim, you're also getting beat up in front of everybody you're also not going to have the chance to redeem yourself for another at least 3-4 months which again you might get beat up again after that so there's a lot at stake every time you step in there and that's the tough thing about MMA is that it's on you and sometimes you do everything right and you still lose there's so many variables in MMA like people say oh he like zigged when he should have zagged or whatever sometimes it's not even that just one lands and you go over you've not even made a mistake are you thinking about any of this during the fight no not when it starts not when it starts so the fight starts what's going on inside Tom Aspinall's brain ice cold nothing nothing then once the bell rings I'm good to go and this is something else that I was telling someone recently because we were chatting when I was younger and less experienced I used to go into a fight and I couldn't feel anything physically.

21:20Like, the punches and kicks, they wouldn't really hurt. But now I'm a lot more well-versed. It's painful, man. Like, because I'm so calm in there, I don't have the same adrenaline as I did five, ten years ago. The punches and kicks hurt more than they used to. But how do you balance the act of, you know, they often say about boxing, it's like chess with gloves on. The best boxers are strategists that they're thinking and reacting in real time. so how do you combine the automatic behaviours of knowing what to do and where to do it but to adapt in the auto that's built from like years in the gym so let's go back to that then and tell us about your origins then of going in the gym because we're talking about the high stakes now but you were doing this when nobody knew your name when you were walking into a gym and paying your subs I've been doing this since I was like eight years old and now I'll be 32 in a couple of weeks so yeah the majority of my life I've been involved in martial arts of some kind my dad is a martial artist was a fighter before me so it's just like something that I've always done you know what I mean I've always been involved in MMA and I think it's quite easy to look at me physically and be like he's like 6 '4", 6 '5", 115 kilos athletic guy that's why he's winning the fights but there's been a lot of times when I've not had that physical stature and I've had to learn how to do everything properly I think my like feel of the sport, because I've been doing it so long and all my life and I've put the reps in for so long, is way superior than I've given credit for, I think.

22:57So tell us about pain then. You say it hurts now, but at that age of eight years of age where you're getting hurt, you're putting yourself into that arena. How did you learn to process that? Because lots of people get hurt first time and never come back again. You kept coming back and doing the reps. You know what? I feel like talking to more people as I've got a bit older, I've got quite a unique journey in that sense. Because I was so young when I started, it's difficult to really remember, first of all. But I always did martial arts, or at least to start off with, because my friends at the time and stuff were into football and whatever.

23:31I wasn't. So I'd just go with him. So it was always just like mine and my dad's bonding time, really, because I had nothing else really to do. My dad was going. He would ask me, do I want to come along? I had nothing else to do, so I'd go. Do you know what I mean? It was as simple as that. So the process of taking shots and it being painful, like that's just something that I've become accustomed to through kind of wanting to spend time with my dad, really. Like at the core of it all, that's how it worked because I didn't really like football or rugby. That's why I got involved with it. And was the dream at that stage to be the best in the world?

24:05No, that dream came when I was about 14, 15 years old. and I remember going to a gym where there was like professional MMA fighters and I didn't really know that existed before because in the UK, you've got to remember, we're talking like 16, 17-ish years ago here so it wasn't like it is today. So I'm going to a gym and this guy's there in the morning. So I'm obviously off school for whatever reason when I talk to the gym. This guy's there like in the morning time and I remember asking like specifically like, why are these guys not at work? Do you know what I mean? like what's going on and they're like no no they do this full time I'm like what so they train in the morning that's it and they're like no they train in the morning then they go home then they come back and train at night and then they'll fight and that's the way they and when I started realising oh that's how people like that's what they do they don't work a normal job because like I'm from an area where you know we're in London right now but like office jobs and lawyer jobs and broker jobs and that they don't exist well they must exist where I'm from but people people's families don't do that where I'm from people's families work in a factory or they work in a garage or you know they're a plumber or you know stuff like that that's that's I'm from a blue collar area so once I realized like oh people are doing this rather than you know working 12 hours in the factory I was like oh this is I'm doing this you know what I mean I'm not doing that other stuff but being a good fighter and wanting to be the best in the world and wanting to turn pro those are all good things right but none of those take away the pain and the challenge and the difficult times.

25:40So you then turn professional. And if people are watching this that don't know the Thomas Spinal story, they'd be like, oh right, trained a bit, went professional, ended up in the UFC and now he's one of the biggest in the world. I think we need to tell them about after turning professional, actually, what was going on. Well, I wish it went that way. That'd be fantastic. Wouldn't it? Well, I don't know. I think part of your story is the challenges that you've had. No, I think so as well. I think I'm pretty thankful for the challenges I've had. So my career has been very like stop-start. I've quit quite a lot of times.

26:08to be honest I didn't want to do it anymore making any money outside of the UFC as a professional MMA fighter is impossible even being like in the low level of the UFC you can just about get by what sort of money would you be making a year a year? yeah what are we talking about like when I first turn professional yeah so say I'm having three fights a year I'm probably making somewhere between three to five grand a year what? so what are you doing to supplement it then? so my jobs it's actually a lie to call that professional by the way yeah it's not really you can't be a professional earning five grand a year can you it might have changed now I don't know but that's the way it was when I was you know a young professional but so I worked like a few jobs and stuff my jobs were always to put fuel in the car to buy supplements to do whatever you know buy gloves or whatever I need to go to the gym and train my where I am now is where I wanted to be then do you know what I mean so the jobs that I did have were like personal training I did a bit of that I used to teach a bit of MMA grappling I used to work on the doors security a little bit I used to do a bit of cleaning I was like a delivery driver at one stage you know just stuff to get me back so that's how I was funding my stuff and when you're doing that what are you saying to yourself well you know what I was completely uh satisfied with it for a while for quite a while because I was like that's what everybody else was doing he was trying to make it in MMA do you know what I mean I was fine with it.

27:37Then I had my first kid when I was 22, 23, something like that. Even then, that was all right, because I was doing work as well. You know, I was doing like bits of, you know, I would work in the gym, I would train in the morning, then I'd teach a couple of private lessons, so I'd maybe get 40 quid off that. And then I'd teach a class at night, I'd get another 30 quid. So I was doing all right. Then my wife got pregnant again with twins. So now I have three kids. I was 25 years old, which is very young to have three children, without money. That's when the mental struggle started for me in terms of what am I doing?

28:11See, I'm quite traditional in the sense of, I mean, there's definitely going to be people watching this who disagree, but I'm quite traditional in the sense of I'm the man. I should be providing for the family. And we're in the modern world now and people will disagree with that and that's fine. But that's my point of view on it. My wife was not in a physical state after having, you know, three young kids. We didn't have the time for our wife to go to work as well. so I had to provide the money and I didn't have any which was tough at the time So how did you keep that fire burning then the idea of still having a dream of being where you are now?

28:46I'm very lucky in I started the journey with my dad he's always believed in me but not only has my dad believed in me he's also convinced the circle of people around me that I'm going to make it as well so like luckily my wife was on board my family were on board friends, like everybody was convinced that, yeah, Tom might be struggling now, but he's going to make it. And at some point, I wasn't even convinced of that myself, if I'm being honest. But I'm very lucky that I have that, you know, my dad in the close circle, who did believe in me. Can I just talk about that period where things were a struggle for you?

29:23Because I know there will be many men watching this, with more going on inside their brains than they will ever allow people to know. They will feel like you do, that it's their responsibility to be the leader of the pack. they will feel like if they tell people why they're struggling and fearful and full of self-doubt that they'll get shot down and they'll get ridiculed and they'll get criticised. They feel that every single day they're failing because they're not doing the thing that they believe that they should be doing. And if they ever do reach out, what they will get is a cuddle and a bit of love.

29:52And actually the one thing that they really need is that sense that they're delivering for people rather than for people to feel sorry for them. And I think often men who are struggling are the ones who find it the hardest to reach out. It's okay for you to talk about this now because you're a successful guy. so it's easy now for Thomas once again yeah I had self-doubt and I was really struggling you try and say this 20 years ago when you're struggling and I don't think you can so for people who are watching this who are in the place now where you were then what would you say to them? I completely agree with what you just said by the way I'm extremely fortunate and actually thinking back which is something that I don't do very often maybe I should reflect a bit more on where I've come from and stuff but you know life moves so fast now that you know I'm going from this to this and it's constant but I'm very lucky in the fact that my close people were on board.

30:37If I was to talk to anybody who wasn't under that belief system that I'm going to make it, I know for a fact what somebody would have said. Just get a regular job then. Just get a regular job, go and provide for your family. That's what I would tell somebody else, do you know what I mean? But I think the advice that I would tell everybody is to try and stay true to what you're doing. Like if you've put a lot of work in something and you know that you're good at it, try and stick it out. Everyone's situation is different, of course. But I have been there. And again, I'm really lucky to have my dad because he's like, you can't stop now.

31:13Like, you're right on the cusp. You're right on the cusp of doing something good and making money out of it. Like, you've been doing it since you were eight, nine years old. You can't just stop now. And that is something that I'm very, very lucky with. The fact that I didn't need to look many places for encouragement. I'm very lucky with that. I also think it's important to say that people will feel they're not resilient, right, if they've got all of these fears. But actually resilience, that's how resilience feels. Resilience feels bad. Feels like you don't know the answers. Feels like you can't keep going forwards.

31:42The point is that you do. That's why you're resilient. And I guess the most important thing about your whole story is you had these feelings. I think people think that if they're finding life harder than them, perhaps on the wrong path, I think it's important for us to say that sometimes you could be on the right path, still feels pretty shit. Yeah, well, I felt shit for most of my come up. And sometimes I still do. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't, I think that's something else. See, poor people look at rich people and the like, and they've got money. When you've got money like them, you don't have any problems.

32:14Or people who are not very popular look at famous people and be like, you're famous. Listen, you still feel the same stuff. It doesn't change, doesn't change nothing. And it's the same with unsuccessful people. look at successful people and be like, they had it so easy and they've not been through any struggles. Look, it's all the same. It's hard either way. It's like you just have to try and carry on with what you're doing. It's what I think is like. If you're passionate about something, if you love something, that's the most important thing is that love for it. Like I absolutely love mixed martial arts.

32:49More than most people who are involved with it. I love it, everything about it, from the mental aspect to the physical aspect to the tactical aspect. to the almost, I'm going to get a bit weird and say the spiritual aspect, because there is a spiritual aspect to it. I love everything about it, and it would be a shame for me to love something that much and walk away from it for financial reasons or whatever. What's the spiritual aspect? I just think it's quite difficult to speak to two quote-unquote normal people and for you to relate to it, if that makes sense. Try us. I'll try you. But I feel like if I was to speak to any other combat athlete and say you need to get, when I'm talking about spiritual, I'm not talking about like God or any religious stuff.

33:36I'm talking about you need to get into a space mentally, and this is going to sound really brutal, where you're willing to die in there. And people will be watching this and thinking, this guy is over-exaggerating a little bit here. But that is seriously the space. when that door closes, you need to be willing to die. I'm not saying it for clicks. I'm not saying it to be over-exaggerated and make me look like some intense person that I'm not. But that is the reality of it. Why? Because that's how bad you need to want it. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no.

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36:12I can identify with that. I wrote a book many years ago on Marvin Hagler, the middleweight boxer, and when I interviewed his coaches, he spoke about that Hagler would say to him before his first world title fight, whatever happens in here, I'm ready to die in this ring. So I can identify what you're saying. What I'm interested in is, how do you reconcile yourself to the fact that you are willing to die in there as a father of three young children, a husband to your wife? Well, it's definitely become more difficult with stuff like that. And I don't want to die in there. Do you know what I mean?

36:48It's not something I want to do, but it's just a place that I'm willing to go if I have to. The last place that I ever want to be in, and this is, again, some fighters will definitely disagree with me on this. I don't want to be in a hard fight. That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking to get in and out as quick as possible with me and my opponent getting home safely. That's paramount for me. But if I have to, and I don't want to, I'll do everything in my power to win and that's a space that again only elites even if you're talking to a professional tennis player or whatever professional golfer or whoever they will also be willing to die to win 100 % and I've never spoke to any other people in any other sports but you have to go to a place mentally, physically you have to embody that you are willing to lose your life to win.

37:42Tell you what, can we get your dad in? We can do, yeah. Because I think with this kind of mental approach, I think it's really important. What were you going to say, Damien, were we? Well, I was going to ask you, we're talking about the real dark heart area of competition. When do you enter that place? I don't know if I do. I think it's just automatic. I just know that that's what I might have to do. But when do you step out of being dad mode to then go to being this ultimate warrior? I don't know. it's hard to say we talk about it a lot a lot of fighters talk about flipping a switch they call it is like flipping a switch between like a normal life person and a professional cage fighter now for me I don't have that really I feel like I'm just doing a sport which is like completely contradicting everything that we just talked about about potentially dying for it but it is a sport for me and I find it easy I don't know if it's because I've done that forever but it's I just see it that way Well, your dad is now with us.

38:42We just saw now his mic on the fly here. The reason why you were watching out there and we wanted to drag you in, at this moment particularly, that you've been a huge part of Tom's journey from the very beginning. How do you feel when you sit here and hear him say he'd be willing to die in that ring? I'd throw a towel in. I don't know, is the answer. You can only do so much with your athlete, your son, to get him there and do what they do. And on fight day, I don't know, he's really scared because he doesn't portray that. you know it's a secret of how he holds it in and how he portrays himself and in the ring you don't know how far he's going to go So how have you made the distinction between being a dad and being a corner man?

39:20I've never known any different so it's just life for me that's what we've always done But when you see him do you see your son in there or do you see a fighting machine? Good question I don't really think about it that much because we've done it for 20 odd years and he had lots of wrestling matches lots of jiu-jitsu in matches, boxing matches. I've just always been there and it's something we've always done. Would you be sitting here today in a position you're in without the man to your arm? No, no, no, no. I don't even know if I would have been involved in martial arts, to be honest. I don't even know if I would have liked it.

39:54It's hard to say because, I said before, it's just something that I kind of did because I didn't really do anything else and my dad was going. I just wanted to spend time with my dad, really. So your dad gave you the physical stuff, right, which is taking you to the fights, getting you on the mats, explaining the life that he lived, you know, as a fighter as well. I'm interested in the mental stuff that your dad gave you, though. What's he done for you on that side? Well, pretty much everything, really. See, MMA is very complicated when you talk about psychology and stuff because, like we touched on before, it isn't a regular sport in terms of your ego is at stake massively.

40:33And people, they have a fight-or-flight switch and they start thinking in ways that you wouldn't usually think in terms of a lot of people want to go into this like warrior mindset, do or die, forcing everything they do in there, the lights are on, everybody's watching and they're tensed up and they're trying to kill the other guy. Whereas I think the outlook that we have is a little bit different. We see it for sport. We see it for, obviously there's elements of that that come into it, but that's secondary. what we see first is the almost like chess game of it and the way that you can see that is through feel and through enjoying yourself really like when you're in that quote unquote flow state and everyone wants to talk about that terminology these days you can't do that if you're tensed up and forcing it so in order to get to that flow state you have to be enjoying it and reactive and that's my style and to have that you need someone in your corner who keeps you in a mental state that allows you that encourages that doesn't allow you to tense up doesn't allow you to think do or die it's me or them two men enter one man leaves and all that stuff that's not what we're about we're about the skill and finesse of martial arts So how do you create that environment in the dressing room Andy because it can sometimes feel like the gallows can't it before you call to go out and you're wrapping his hands.

42:07I don't let it be like that. Go on, so tell us. He trains, you know, we train every day. And one or two days a week he'll spar quite hard. And all the lads who come are very, they're high in their organisations that they're in anyway. And the atmosphere is really, really nice. Ask anybody who comes. It's not about scrapping. We've been to gyms before where you walk in, they wrap their hands, they don't talk, they stare at each other. It's not like that where I train. and I don't have that. I don't have people in the gym who are like that. Same as I won't have them in the dressing room. So what do you do with people that are like that?

42:39So how do you...? I just try and manage them out, really, is the answer. And they just want a picture, really, sometimes. And sometimes they come and they'll blame, you know, you hear it on the grapevine, you came and such a body beat me up. And so you came for sparring and it's got to a stage that if they do get to me now, I'll ask how good they are and I'll tell them that it's really elite level and if you're going to come you risk getting hurt. The guys will not pick on you and they'll not try and kill you but they're world class elite fighters and if you want that come and enjoy it and we'll make sure you enjoy it and if the personnel's right I'll tell them.

43:15I'll just say it's wrong you being here. What's your fear like before a fight? No. None. Not saying none I do honestly see it as just a sport. He's prepared for a sport since he was 10. I know the risks of window cleaning and I know the risks of being a lorry driver and I know the risks of, you just have to see it like that. I know you're going in and trying to punch somebody, but he's done that for years and years and years. So he knows how to move out of the way of a punch. And if a stray punch catches you, that's the sport. Well, I love that. Even I feel confident now with Andy sitting here saying all these things.

43:48It's very interesting, isn't it, how the way your dad sees it kind of, is a very calm approach. I used to explain to Tom, if you go to Alton Towers and you sit on the top of the Oblivion and you're going to go down over the top or you're going to spar or have a contest with somebody. So are you scared there and are you happy there, excited or is it just a word that you're using for a feeling that you've got? It's just, I want to do it and I want to see what it's like. And he's hyped on fight day and chat around it, but it's not something he's not done. He's sparred with the best in the world at sports and sparring, he'll spar 12 rounds, it's hard.

44:26in a fight he has three or five runs still hard big audience loads of people watching but he knows how to do it So you said that your favourite boxer was Marvin Hagler one of the aspects of his career that I always admired Different to his personality Yeah he is but one of the things I always admired was the fact that he had the goody and Pat Petronelli as his coaches Yes and even when he was at the summit of his sport he kept those coaches and he managed his inner circle to be really tight he said now everyone wants to know me I'm really careful of who I let in. Yes. So how do you manage the inner circle?

45:00Because now Tom's coming to the summit of UFC. I imagine people want to be part of your entourage. People want to come in. How do you manage that to make sure it's the right influences around him? For the last three or four years, that's what I've done solely. So I train him, find sponsors for him. Got a social media guy we work with closely now, part of the team. And the team is probably us three. Other people try and help. and not everybody who comes wants a piece, but lots of people are. I don't do social media. Can't stand it. The world's gone wrong for me. Not personally. I don't like the world now how it is with social media and stuff because everybody's great at everything because they post loads of pictures.

45:41So I don't do that at all. But anybody who holds pads for Tom, they put a video out saying, I've explained to Tom Aspinall how to beat. You know what it's like. So I have to try and keep everybody away because everybody thinks that they've done everything for Tom. And that doesn't bother me when he has a fight. I want everybody there who's been involved with Tom, but I don't want them portraying that they've done... He does it all. I do it because I'm his dad and he's my son and I love him and I want to be with him and I want everything for him. I'm old and past my time, but if I can help him in any way, if I wasn't helping him, he'd tell me.

46:18He's straight enough to say, Dad, you're not the best coach, I'll go and find somebody else. what would you say to your dad about what he's done for you well it's immeasurable I can't put it into words as my dad said there's a lot of people interested there's a lot of great coaches I could work with anywhere in the world that would fly to my house and stay there if they wanted to but I'd choose my dad over anyone why? because I feel like above everything else I mean MMA essentially there's different methods of training of course but they're all pretty similar you're punching and kicking each other you're wrestling to each other to the floor and you're doing different moves to each other that's essentially what it is but mentally and spiritually not everybody knows me and not will ever know me on the level that my dad does so how am I going to trust anybody else to be my head coach when they've held a few pads for me and see me take someone down to the floor a few times and show me a few moves and is there ever a moment or a piece of advice you can recall that Andy's offered you that stands out?

47:21Best advice that you can give me, and it's very subjective because there are people, I know we just spoke about like the bad stuff and, you know, people need to get into this warrior mindset. Look, that works for some people. That works absolutely for some people. But for me, enjoying it is the most important thing that you can do. That's when I do my best. So the best advice that my dad or anybody else could ever give me is just go and enjoy yourself. Love that. Which leads us to our final part of the show, our quickfire questions.

47:55I'd like you both to give us some answers to these. So first of all, the three non-negotiable behaviours that you guys think are most important. Timekeeping. I mean, everybody's late sometimes, especially me. Don't be late every day. That's annoying. Every day, that's too far. Having a bad attitude, that rubs off on people. like if we're all tired it's bad and just negative talk everybody's got to complain sometimes get it off the chest get that I do it a lot myself don't let everything that comes out your mouth be negative nice people yep I like nice people I want people who will stay in the lanes you know if you're a marketing guy just do marketing you're an accounts guy just do accounts and the last one is personally this is what I've found in my personal life and especially in Tom's fighting life if somebody asks me something my opinion on something or if I say something to somebody that's my opinion that I need to tell them for him don't be offended by it because I've asked him and we've agreed it and that person isn't right for doing that thing.

49:17So don't complicate and don't think I'm bad or an arse. Take it professionally, not personally. Take it professionally because you're asking me. I want him to get to there. He's not stupid. We know each other better than anybody in the planet probably. And if somebody says to me, he's really good for doing that for Tom and Tom tries him and he says he's not and I watch him and I look and I know him and I say he's not and that person asks and I say, you're not right for him. Don't be offended by it. What advice would you give to a teenage Tom just starting out? If you love something, go for it.

49:52Don't waver off it. It depends because a lot of people, they get confused with enjoying doing something and loving it. Like, I enjoy playing football. I enjoy playing rugby. I didn't love it, so I didn't want to stick at it. If you truly love something, whether you're good at it or not, being good at it comes secondary because you'll get good at it because you love it and you want to do it. So if you really love it, like I loved MMA, stick with it. Because being good will come. Because you love it and you'll keep doing it. So that would be my advice. And my advice would be, and he knows this from my point of view, if I'm telling him something, there's nothing in it for me.

50:34I'm not doing it because I want to do it. I'm doing it because I think it's best. In this situation, I think you're asking that question. But I only tell him what I think is best for him. it's not better for me I could walk away from doing it but I we've got so far on doing it we're trying to get but my advice would be listen to your parents sometimes because there's nothing in it there's nothing in it for me I don't want his money listen to your dad that's his that's his goal it's sometimes good advice isn't it for some people absolutely the final question something that you'd like to leave ringing the ears of the people that have listened to this fascinating conversation and thank you for your time your golden rule if you like for living a high performance life well I think you've got to show up.

51:17It's so underrated. So underrated. Sometimes just showing up beats anything else. Especially these days. I mean, I am unlike my dad. I am on social media. And I think people have a lot of resources to find the best way to do something. And they can Google what's the best way to be good at MMA, for example. What's the best way? Put it in YouTube. How do I swim faster? listen swim faster by swimming that's how you swim faster sit in there and YouTube it just show up show up get in the pool and swim amazing will you fight John Jones? yes will you beat him? yes thank you for your time

52:00Damien Jake the talk about visualisation the talk about enjoying the moment the talk about being willing to die the talk about fear to hear someone in the world that Tom is in be so comfortable to talk about subjects that almost every professional athlete and every professional fighter would avoid, I think is a sign of how comfortable he is and therefore a sign of actually how dangerous he is in the octagon. You're absolutely right, Jake. I mean, that conversation about fear is, we're in rare territory there to hear somebody at his level be willing to talk about it, embrace it, understand the nuances of it.

52:37And it reminds me of one of the greatest coaches of all time is a guy called Cus D 'Amato who trained Mike Tyson and Floyd Patterson in the 1950s before him and we referenced it there in the interview. I just want to read out the quote that Cus used to say. He said, you must understand fear so you can manipulate it. Fear is like fire. It can make it work for you. It can warm you in winter, cook your food when you're hungry and give you light when you're in the dark and produce energy. But let it go out of control and it can hurt you, even kill you. Fear is a friend of exceptional people. We've just met an exceptional person there.

53:13I think somebody willing to go to that dark heart and stare it in the face, accept the consequences of what you're going to do. So be able to translate fear as an energy source for him to heighten his emotions. It's something that any of us can do. We all have to face fear occasionally in our life. Remember when we spoke to Alex Honnold and he said that we've sanitized our lives so much that often when we face molehills, we make them into mountains. Whereas what he's saying is being willing to go there, you can often give you the confidence that you can face any challenge if you're willing to accept it.

53:47And look, he is on the verge of this Jon Jones fight. He said at the end that he thinks it's going to happen. He also said he thinks he's going to win. You've spent your life in boxing. People are saying 25, 30, 35 million is what Jon Jones wants to get in the ring with Tom Aspinall. What does that tell you about what John Jones thinks of this fighter, that he wants that amount of money to go toe-to-toe with Tom? Well, what it would tell me is that John Jones is recognising that the end is close for him and that if he's going to hand over a legacy, his crown, to the next generation, he wants to be well paid for it.

54:21Do you ask for that amount of money if you think you're going to win? Yeah, I think he recognises that he is the most legitimate contender he's ever going to face and I think there'll be a seed of doubt there in his mind as to whether he can win. whatever he's going to tell us In John's mind? In John Jones' mind I think for Tom Aspinall he's the coming force but what I love about him what gave me extra confidence was that he wasn't just saying I'm going to dominate I'm going to beat him and it wasn't ridiculous talk that Tom was giving us he was giving us a real calculated scientific breakdown of what John Jones was good at but where he felt he could take advantage of him that to me makes him a dangerous man We live in a period where young men find it hard to be young men because they don't know whether to be emotional, to keep it all in, to be a fighter, to be a lover, it's a hard time.

55:08I think one of the most powerful things about that conversation is that Tom is showing us that you can be a fighter and a lover at the same time, you can be emotional, you can be vulnerable, you can be open, you can express how you're feeling. It doesn't make you any weaker. Absolutely. In fact, that is where your strength lies. That vulnerability is a strength. And I think he's given us a great example of how you can reframe that and use it to your advantage. Honestly, I love that conversation. I thought it was a real privilege to hear somebody at the apex of their sport, probably the most alpha sport you can think of, but being willing to embrace the more vulnerable, sensitive sides of his task as well.

55:46Thanks a lot, mate. Thank you, mate. A huge thanks to Tom for his raw, honest and completely fearless chat in that conversation. And if you took something from today's episode, please hit follow on Apple or Spotify. it really helps us to grow the show and it means we can also keep you in the loop with every new episode. And if you want early access and extra exclusives like our Masterclass with the legendary Jess Ennis-Hill, download the High Performance app from the App Store today. From both of us and the whole team, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

56:58We'll see you next time. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

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