Tom Kerridge: How I broke all the rules to win two Michelin stars (E243)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up today. Biggest thing we say at the Hand of Flowers is every time a dish goes onto the pass before it goes to the guests, there has to be a little bit of sadness in the chef that's on the pass that he's not eating that dish. We were the first British pub to win Two Mission Stars and it's amazing. It's that kind of pub environment and it was all about working really hard, playing really hard. High performance I think is a self-driven thing. Then you need to surround yourself by people who also want to perform at that level.

1:00And it's also, it's not an overnight thing. It's a long journey. It's a long thing to that point of success or where you think you're successful. The only person that can do this is you. You are in control of your own destiny. And I wouldn't swap that for anything. So on this episode of the show, we welcome a culinary great, a culinary visionary. You're about to hear how Tom Kerridge, one of the most celebrated and successful chefs in the world found huge success and then had to change his whole approach to life. He'll share how he built teams, how he created cultures, how he set standards, how he delivered greatness and how you can learn from the things that he's done.

1:45Honestly, this is a brilliant episode with Tom and don't forget if you're not listening on the High Performance app, then you can also watch this episode on YouTube and if you head to the app, then you can also get exclusive content and loads of other brilliant stuff. Just download the High Performance app in the App Store. Right, let's get straight to it then. Time to get you closer to your own version of High Performance as we welcome Tom Kerridge to the show. The episode comes next, but first a few messages from our valued partners who allow us to give you this content absolutely free. We're really proud to be partnering with Travel Counselors on today's episode of High Performance, and I'll tell you why.

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7:26Tom. Nice to see you. Nice to see you, gents. Thanks for having us. Thank you for joining us. So what do you believe high performance to be? For me personally, I went on a journey in kitchens as a chef. And I was very lucky that as an 18-year-old, I found a world that I loved. So, you know, there's so many people that go through life that just have jobs and do things just to exist. And then live for a weekend. And I've always thought, no matter what, when I was at school, like I wasn't great at school. I wasn't the naughtiest boy, but I wasn't, the education system at that point wasn't necessarily for me.

8:04But I always thought it was really weird that people would work five days to have two days. Surely the five days should be the thing that you enjoy. And I was so lucky that as an 18-year-old, I went into a kitchen and went, this world, this is amazing. I love being immersed in this environment. And that was first. and it wasn't about performing high performance. It wasn't about cooking Michelin Styles. It wasn't about this. It was about being in a world that I just really loved. And then I started to realize that because it's such an amazing industry, hospitality is such a special place. It's so diverse and eclectic of the kind of people that work in it.

8:39And it's all the better. You can create an amazing career from it. And you kind of realize that when you're in it, 18 and you start looking around, you start seeing people that traveled and been places and seen things and done stuff. and you start thinking like i never thought you could do that coming you know single parent family from a working class area of gloucester and just going hold on a minute how does like people have visited these spaces try you know and being a part because you they can cook and you just go well this is a mate so i started then questioning and trying to get realizing that if you push yourself the better you can be the more experience and the more fun that you can have and gain and then i think across that journey i mean i've been cooking been kitchens and chefs in the hospitality for 32 years now and then it starts becoming i think the point when you start working as a in top kitchens and you start realizing you look around you and you see that there's other chefs in there that are from the same sort of backgrounds or different backgrounds or some that are even worse i used to work with a guy that couldn't even read or write but his cooking was exceptional and you start looking at these people you go they're like i need to push my i need to start picking up on that i need to question myself and push myself and drive those things so i think high performance i think is a self-driven thing i think it doesn't matter you can and you then you need to surround yourself by people who also want to perform at that level i think i think you have to find the balance between all of it and then and it's also it's not an overnight thing it's a long journey it's a long thing to that point of success or where you think you're successful and i and i question that i say i don't think we are when i do i look back at it and i go well maybe we're doing all right but there's always that i think you've probably talked about it to people who have self-made and done it before that there's always that there's a fear there's always a fear that it's just going to disappear and that's the thing that keeps you driving so it's it's a constant and it's almost like every day you get up and you have to push yourself you have to ask questions of yourself every single day in every aspect of everything that you do so you was driven now are you 50?

10:48Yeah 50 yeah 51 this year. Are you as driven now as a 50 year old as the 18 year old that first walked into the kitchen or even more driven? I would say even more driven but in a very different way so when I when you walk into a kitchen it's quite and the parallels is funny we were talking about it before we started kicking off with this but about professional sport and the parallels with kitchens and cooking there's there it's very similar to professional sport in lots of ways in terms of you know if you're a football player you know the players that are moving the fast quick getting in the action that they're the younger chef you're 18 to 35 you know and that you know that's almost professional sportsman range and they're the guys that are pushing and quick and hard and asking questions of themselves and the young guys are learning from the ones that are more experienced but they're all together as a team and that kitchen is gelling and then from there you start ending up being those head chef positions where you're at the front of the kitchen, which is almost becoming structural player manager almost.

11:45And then you start becoming the restaurateur and you become the manager and you start beginning to understand what's going on. And then there's the adrenaline factor. There's the kitchens have a reputation of being brutal and uncomfortable places, but they're not because none of it's personal. They're not. They're the same as in a rugby match or a football pitch or someone makes a mistake, a player, the captain, you know, like loses his shit with the player. Like it's not about, it's not a personal attack. It's next time pass the ball in front of me or make sure that this is there. You know, those kind of, it's about winning.

12:20And that's the same sort of thing that happens in a kitchen, in a kitchen service. Because at the end of it, you know, it's all gone really well. Everyone's high-fiving. It's a brilliant service. Well done. Everyone has a beer. It's great, you know, and you go on to the next, you know. So those parallels sit quite tightly. but as you get older I think a more when you're younger you're driven you're driven to work hard and it's about graft and it's about commitment it's about pushing yourself every single day and I have the same drive now if not more but in a really different way it's much more management structured it's much more you know we have six restaurants we have an a festival business we do books we do television in a production company all of those sort of things so it's about trying to organize a structure you know deals that are right make sure that the business runs properly you know where the cling from is kept and you know i like the road to writing i i don't deal with now i do deal with how many staff are on and we'll ask them those sort of questions but you know that that day-to-day grind i'm not in but i am very much hands-on of trying to create and push and push myself and also i think give the team opportunities to grow as well that's a big thing.

13:30I like the parallels there where you're talking about the football and the parallels with the kitchen and it reminds me of that great quote from Arrigo Sacchi, the old Italian manager that said, you don't need to have been a horse to be a jockey. You know, when people used to criticise his lack of playing career. Do you think you could be a good leader now though, if you hadn't have done those years in the kitchen? No, absolutely not. No, you need to come through an understanding of how kitchens work. Kitchens are really eclectic. It's a wonderful mix of different people. And it slightly attracts people that are, I don't know, a little bit left field, a little bit outside of normal society kind of thinking.

14:11You know, people that are quite often, kitchens have got loads of stress in them that have, you know, maybe ADHD, some form of, you know, communicative kind of difficulties. or people that, you know, are not really sociable or they're really sociable, but they're prone to, I don't know, addiction issues. They're prone to like just people that are, don't necessarily conform to the norms of society, very similar to the kind of like musicians or, you know, that kind of world that people are creative. And what happens is that you need to understand those people. You need to be able to connect. You need to be able to get the best out of those people.

14:50And you can only get the best and understand those people from working with them, being with them, connecting with them. How do you connect, like genuine connection with these people? What's the secret to that?

15:04I couldn't tell you the secret, but I do think you need to talk to people. You need to be honest. I think all good leaders have good communication skills. I think all good leaders try to connect with an individual, even if it's just for 10 seconds, ask them how their day was. If there's a young 18-year-old chef that's in our kitchen and I haven't been into one of the kitchens for, I don't know, two weeks because I've been all around now getting there and there's a young chef that's just started. It's really important for me to go and say hello to them, welcome them, for their point of view of them going, my God, that's the owner, they might have seen me on the telly, they might have a book, they might, you know, and they're in the business and make them feel welcome.

15:39And just for those points, you need to understand, ask their name, try and remember their name. You know, all these sort of things are really, really important. And then I think just ask personal little bits from them. But then also, a lot of it comes from banter. A lot of it comes from, you know, taking the mickey. A lot of it comes from just making them feel that they're part of a crew. And I think that's so, so important to team building. And I imagine it's in every industry and every business, but I can only talk about it with the way that kitchens and restaurants kind of work. but there is a connectivity of how people work.

16:18And then people find their own kind of social standing, don't they? They find their own position in that group. But you have to make the group accessible for those people to feel that they can grow and be a part of. And what the secret to that is, I don't know. I think you've just got to be in it. But you've described it previously as being like a pirate ship, like a band of brothers that you go into it. And I think there's lots of people listening to this that it sounds really seductive. and they'd like to be a part and belong to a world like that. So what were the characteristics of that kitchen that first made you think, this is my people, this is where I belong?

16:57So my world, when I first went into it as an 18-year-old, one of the first kitchens that I left, I mean, there was always lots of Mickey taking. There was always knives being hidden. There was always your shoes being rack-packed and dumped in a stock pot. There was always, like, stuff that was going on. it was always you'd leave the kitchen one night and your whole car was cling filmed up and you'd just be like oh my god like you know like just loads of just like absolute idiots what did that do for the environment like it made it it has to be controlled because if it's with the wrong person it would feel like bullying but actually if it's somebody yeah like as they all drive off beeping their horn laughing at you pulling the wanker sign you're just like like it's funny do you know i mean you're just like oh like hurry up get the drinks in because they're going to the pub you're going to meet in there for last order there's all that kind of banter stuff that goes on so you're connected to it and that pirate ship analogy is um it came from it was actually when the hand of flowers won two mission stars and we won two mission stars and there's loads of other incredible right we were the first british pub to win two mission stars and it's amazing it's that kind of pub environment and the people that were working in that um there's a connected i mean tattooed drink it i was a big drinking culture when we won two stars like for me and it was led by me and was a huge drinker at that point massive and it was all about working really hard playing really hard being a part of everyone was on this journey that was leading it from the front and we were on it and we were shotgunning kansas stella or before sunday lunchtime and just this kind of attitude and then there were other two mission style restaurants like the manoir or the gavroche or these well-established places that everyone was in hundred pound like chef's jackets and everyone was smart and ironed and crisp and like and we were like a bunch of blokes in tracksuit bottoms and t-shirts and stripy aprons that cost eight pound do you know what I mean and it was just like this kind of our cooking when it came to the plate and what we did was equal so all of these guys I thought were like the Royal Navy and we were like a pirate ship that was equal to them or if not more scary to them because it was this bunch of like crazy lunatics that were shotgunning Stella and winning two Michelin stars you know it was kind of this like full-on immersive experience and when everyone came to work they were just in it and on this massive journey and since then we've kind of removed that like I've stopped drinking and the whole world has slightly changed and it's become much more professional and much more driven but they still have to have that connection that excitement that buzz that young chefs have come into that adrenaline-fueled thing I think there's a really powerful lesson there that we go well if you want to be successful this is how you have to act this is how you have to dress this is where you have to go to school and these have to be your values and your behaviors and we talk a lot about values behaviors non-negotiables on this podcast but you've just described almost the antithesis of le manoir gavroche yeah but incredible success Yes.

19:53Yeah. We wouldn't be, it wouldn't, and I think I couldn't tell people to behave like that if I wasn't the person that was doing it because it was uncompromised. The food was uncompromised. The quality of the ingredients, the way that we cooked it, the things that came to the past, nothing, there was never ever a that or do attitude when it came to the food. We were being at work. If we had to be there at six o 'clock in the morning, but we haven't been in bed till two, that's it, we'd be there. You'd be there. You'd be there, you would graft, you would work. The lifestyle that kind of surrounded it that I was in was very, very different.

20:29And it wouldn't work now unless you're that person that's doing it. Now, there's a number of restaurants that have got that high energy that are places even now. So there's an amazing chef. It's not the same, but it's got the same sort of kind of connective build energy. Gareth Ward, a restaurant called Inner Shear, which is number one UK restaurant, which is over in Wales. And, you know, there's a brilliant energy for him, his team. He's created the same sort of thing. And he's been on this journey from zero, one to two stars, so Britain's best restaurant to this. And they've got this connection of their team that are all in this together, immersed in this feeling.

21:04It's the same thing. If you remove Gareth, like if you remove me at that point, it wouldn't be the same. And you'd never walk into that kitchen as an owner and want that world to be happening around you because you wouldn't trust it. Did you stumble into this culture or was it a specific, did you look at another chef and think, look how he operated, he was a maverick. that needs to be me or no i think what happened is that i was driven to to get to that point when we won the first mission star we won it within the first 10 months of opening and my friends within the industry at that point were people like sap baines and claude bozzi and simon rogan who are now two and three mission star chefs that have and we were all in this driven world and they were top end smart amazing restaurants we were a pub you know daniel clifford who's got a place in cambridge is a great mate and he was the one that rang me up and said we'd won a star and again it was all very sharp and pushed and driven and i was in that world and i saw and everyone else started winning to daniel had two stars other chefs at claude had two stars and it was just like you're eating in those restaurants you start looking at how are they what how have they achieved two stars what they got consistency they have their own personality they have a drive for you know there's uncompromise in the dining room and the food that comes out the kitchen so that drive for perfection i think is probably it's a flaw in my personality that then hit an addiction issue that you go right i mean it but i need a release if i'm driving to this point and i'm pushing myself from 6 7 a.m till midnight every single day like it's a seven day week operation it was my business myself and my wife and that is it and we are making this work and we are going there and this is where i'm taking it this is where i'm going to go you always need that release and i think you know a lot of people who are that driven will always find a release clause and it might be running or it might be you know going to the gym or it might be or or if you have in that world and you're slightly attracted to that world and that's where it is it might end up manifest itself in a an addiction issue whether it's gambling whether it's drugs or whether it's alcohol so mine was always a release have then became boozing and because everything that i do my life is quite excessive suddenly became excessively it was everything about it was bigger more than how excessive explain for people what a day or a week might look like would you mind no uh so i would finish service i never drank during the day ever ever ever until the last till the last main course had gone uh last main course had gone everyone started clearing down we're clearing down by the kitchen we then get a round of beers i would probably drink a pint of negroni so like a pint of negroni i'd probably then do two so maybe two pints of negroni then maybe six pints of Stella, six pints of lager.

23:48Then there was a pub that was open down the road that would be open till like late, one or two in the morning. So we'd get all the kitchen out and I'd get in there. I don't know, I could easily do another six to eight bottles of Grosch, but the pint ones or pints of lager. Then I'd go home and I'd drink probably, I'd do a gin and tonic, but it would be a pint glass filled with ice. And then I'd pour the gin all the way to the top and then I'd top it off with tonic. And then I'd do it like, so it'd be a, I don't know, I could do half a bottle of gin, 12 to 16 lagers, two massive Negronas every day.

24:26And that would be every day. That would be every day. And then some days it would be, some days it would be more. There was a point where, like, if I was, if I had an evening off and I'd finished work, like in the afternoon and I was going to go for a few beers in the evening and go, like I'd go, I'd be drinking lager in the shower as I'd get to go out. Like, I would drive around with a case of lager in my car in case I was working somewhere and overnight, and by the time I finished working, the bar was shut, so at least I'd have 24 cans of Stella in the boot. It was like, it was at that point, it was like, it was beyond, yeah, like it was next level, like it was beyond, it was massive.

25:03But you must have worked your way up to that, it sounds like. It wasn't, like you weren't, you didn't start with the two pints of the barrel. No, it was a challenge. No, no, no, it was like, it's another thing, it was like what if I'm going to drink we drink proper like you know like when people drink now and they say they're drinkers and they go for a few beers they do a like I always I view it now even as a non-drinker like over 10 years now like everyone's an amateur like you're amateurs like I was real like the real deal like it was like you know so it's like but I built up and you just go and you just start building like anything that you do you get better out of it I got very good at it but where did that desire come from to want to be seen as a professional drinker and to dismiss others that are amateurs because it sounds like that was the same identity you had regarding food.

25:50You weren't, it wasn't enough just to be a chef. You wanted to be the best chef. No, it was all, it was, I don't know, it just felt everything that I did at that time was immersed in the whole thing and we were very lucky because the Hand of Flowers achieved two mission stars. We won UK Best Restaurant of the Year a couple of years in a row. We won Best Pub of the year we won i've won great british menu twice in a row i've won like so the whole world everything was great and and i was massively drinking everything was huge this this buzzing world and it was it was a part of the circle it was a part of the drive it was a part of that life of connecting of driving everything that push that desire and we wouldn't be i wouldn't be sat here now i wouldn't be having these conversations we wouldn't be where we were if I wasn't that person so I don't regret being that person at all because I think that without that release I wouldn't have been able to push myself to that far without that up and down I wouldn't have been there wouldn't have been any point you just push yourself to that point and then stop I needed to go there and then get massively drunk and self-indulged and have an amazing like it was this amazing whirlwind of like five ten years of like chaos I absolutely loved so do you think when Can you look back on that then, Tom, that you'd have been successful professionally if you hadn't have been doing that?

27:17I think we'd have been very successful to a point. I mean, I can't say would we have achieved two mission stars, would we be the people that we are without having gone through that journey. But I love the fact that I've been through that journey. They're all life experiences. And then to have gone to that extreme and then to have stopped and gone, right okay that's a period now i'm done with that i can't do it anymore i know i can't do it anymore it's a part of my life the fact that i have complete control over it now is like i love the fact that i can do that i love the fact that i i believe that if i go i can do that i can do it i i like that and they're life lessons and you only learn that from doing stuff don't you this is so interesting because really everything all of these big moments whether it's becoming in the very best chef you can be one of the most celebrated chefs in the world or being the very best drinker you can be and leading the way into the pub or making the decision to go right now it's over yeah all of it is about finding your absolute being the very very best you can be and so i wonder whether like a lot of people think right i'm going to stop drinking and there's this fear that comes over them can i live without it how will i be funny without it will i have friends without it whereas i i almost get the the feeling that you would have gone now i'll show you like here I go now watch me be a total non-drinker and do it that was exactly it that was exactly it I was like the head chef that I was working with at the time was like you're never going to do that what are you on about it wasn't a day that I wouldn't go that's fuel for you though I imagine yeah it was like I'll show everyone I'll show all of you and it's weird because you have people ask me how you've done it and what you've done and you worry all of those fears that you talk about there how am I going to be that funny or what's my social group going to be like what's my but actually I had a problem right so when if you're just a and I imagine it's a lot more difficult if you're a casual drinker right to then give up drink because you haven't got a problem but you probably drink more than you should but you want to give up a bit less but you haven't got an issue I think if you've got a problem you recognize that there's a big thing that you've got to deal with so you have to change your social outlook your social standing what you do how you go if your life was always about being in the bar going out a little late at night being in clubs doing whatever else you have to go actually i'm gonna i'm not gonna do that so when you say to people that's not me anymore i'm not doing that i'm gonna show you two of my greatest friends two chefs that were also massive drinkers big drinkers really into it the same we'd all be on it together we're all who were um i at first you think they're going to be like oh come on just what that your truest friends when you say to them i've got a massive issue here i've got to change it we're gonna do i'm not gonna do it again they were like amazing brilliant right what do we need to do to help we'd still go out you'd still go like you know you'd be a part and they were massive so your real friends are the ones that help you through it they're the ones that are supportive they're the ones and that's when you start recognizing the rest of it is just noise it doesn't matter and if you think about your life and people who go to the pub i don't know know five or six times a week and they go and they go to the same pub and they're local and I love local life and I love the idea of it but when I look back at it and I go I would go to the pub and I would meet people that I'd saw the night before and they'd tell me the same story and it would be the same thing and it would be this repetitive world of actually achieving nothing and we might be watching a football on the telly or you might be doing whatever and it's and it's lovely but not every day i've got to snap out of this and that was the point where you realize actually your real mates the ones that are really close and that if you are an achiever and you want to do stuff it's not about being stuck in the pub every tuesday wednesday thursday night just like that's lovely and it's great if that's where people's world want to be but it wasn't where i wanted to be i wanted to be doing something else i needed to change but i'm intrigued that at that decision because looking from the outside there's a lot of courage required in it because professionally all your success has been built on you being the driving force and creating this band of brothers where you all go and to extremes socially so you're risking commercial success by daring to do something different on that so what was the problem that that was bigger than that risk that you were doing what was the moment when you thought i've got an issue here and need to do something it was an age thing so i was approaching 40 i think 40 for many people does get to a point of reflection like there is a point like one of my best mates described it's halfway to death and you're like yeah exactly that's cheery yeah it's like oh yeah great like jokingly but then you go actually well i suppose if you do live to 80 you go yeah i'm halfway there and you go well what have i achieved where have i gone and where am i going to go and then that was the point i was 39 and i was like do you know what if i keep doing this i ain't i'm not gonna get 50 i know i'm not do you know i mean i'm i'm over 30 stone i'm drinking 20 pints of lager half a bottle of gin a day is it no no one's getting through that like we're not stupid we all know that if you smoke 30 cigarettes a day you only eat mars bars and you drink 20 pints of lager you're going to be in a world of pain like we're not stupid but it's to snap out of that you have to have the mentality to go you have to start making decisions correct and right decisions at that point and that was the point it was a point of reflection it was about being it was an age thing it wasn't a health I didn't have a health scare.

32:48Although, I mean, if I went to the doctors, I would have scared them. Like the whole, but it wasn't a particular thing. I didn't have a blackout or a collapse. It was just a point of going, do you know what, I'm coming up to 40. I've got to do something here. I've got to change. The moment I stopped drinking, like I swam every day, but I started swimming much better. Everything started beginning to click into place and you started going. It's a whole new world that I'd never experienced. I played quite a bit of sport when I was younger, up to the age of like 18, before I went into a kitchen, and it all just disappears because you're just in that world.

33:23And then all of a sudden you start feeling... I mean, I'd always been... I mean, kitchens are very physical places. I mean, I was massive. But all day long, 16 hours a day on your feet, moving, doing stuff, cooking, it's hard, fast, quick. Like, for a big unit, I was fast and good and quick at it. but all of a sudden the reality the clarity of thought the the thinking process was completely different started realizing that you know that is so far removed from where a normal human being should be what we should be doing is much more movement much more understand you know getting up in the morning having a pint of coffee and six nerofen is not the way to start the day do you what i mean like actually you know do it changing those thought processes and all of that i couldn't agree with more the more and it's weird the more you exercise the more you take control of yourself the more you understand it the it is easier to make better choices i mean if you've just drank 16 pints of lager you go home and you're two in the morning you're having cheese on toast aren't you and a whole tub of pringles because that's like easy because you're a bit battered and you're just making those decisions you know if you're not doing that you're not eating that shit are you it's just kind of you know but there's something about like alcohol is almost a numbing agent as well you don't have to think too much and I'm interested that when you chose to forego alcohol what did that do emotionally like what were the kind of feelings that you'd been numb to that you were now exposed to well I wasn't trying to numb anything I was just trying to release the the energy and the levels of pressure and it took me a while to find what it was because if I then had an evening off I couldn't go to the pub I couldn't go into those so I wouldn't go into the pub and then just go and drink a Diet Coke because I was in that environment.

35:07And I wouldn't put myself in that space because I couldn't trust myself and I wouldn't be that person. So I had to find new releases, new things to try and do. And, you know, swimming was a big thing. Walking the dogs was a big thing. Trying to just be a bit more connected to my wife, trying to be a bit more connected to the world, taking note of what was going on and just, that was the hardest part. I think the first year was really, really difficult of trying to find new social habits or new things to do and removing yourself from those environments. There was a point actually, it was one of the most scary moments from being a non-drinker, was about two and a half years into not drinking.

35:49I was working at the hands and I rang Beth up and it was about 9.30 and we just sent him the last main course, I said, look, he's quite quiet. Do you want to meet in one of the pubs in town? So I thought, I'm cool with that. I'll go and we went into town. Busy little pub, bar. It was great. Came in. Beth had a glass of wine or a gin and tonic or something. I went, do you know what? Actually, I might have a Beck's Blue, non-alcoholic beer. I've not had, you know, I just thought, it's non-alcoholic. It's cool. I'm good with that. It was the connection of the process. There's no alcohol. The opening of the beer, the smell, still smells like beer.

36:20The taste. it was like the the the i don't know the new one everything just suddenly connected it i did eight of them in 20 minutes i was like i was on it i was on i was on it i was on it and i was i was like i started and i looked at beth i was like is it i i found myself in this whole world again it was terrible i was like 20 minutes i've done eight bottles of non-alcoholic beer i'm in that zone of chaos again i've got got to remove myself and that was the that was the final point of just going, I cannot, I can't associate, I can't have anything non-alcoholic like, you know, because it takes you into this world, there's this little kind of like demon thing that's in there that just grabs it.

36:56It shows you he's still there. Yeah, exactly. And that was the point that made me go, I can't go near it. I can't go near it. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Minmobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and coverage on the nation's largest 5G network. Honestly, the quality is just as good, if not better, than what I had before.

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39:09So I'm intrigued about the environment. The context is you're in a pub, you're with your wife, you've got what looks like alcohol in front of you. So the context is key in this environment to then trigger those old behaviours. So take us into the kitchen, the environment that you've now created where you're not leading the way of going on the piss after service. What was the difference pre and post? I've got to be honest, I think probably a lot of the guys in the kitchen were quite relieved because I wasn't making them go to the pub. The cheerleaders, finally. They were like, thank God. I think some of them were like, oh my God, thank God for that.

39:45Thank God that time's over. But then some of them were still on it. They were still living their amazing chef's lives. It kind of changed a little bit. It went through processes when it wasn't being led or booze led. And then I was going home at 10, 10.30 or doing whatever and letting them get on with their world they always thought they they circulate to new things it was either whether it was going to i don't know strip clubs whether drugs came into it whether things happen that they all find their own different like and you go through cycles of what everyone's doing and it kind of we have to move it on whether it was gambling whether it was there was always something that like that kind of environment or those kind of um people will gravitate to a connection you know of doing something but it has most definitely moved in the 10 years since I've stopped drinking to the way that the kitchen works now.

40:32I mean, if you go in there now, there's a load of younger... We pay for gym membership, right? So they're all... I mean, on their days off, coming into work, they're all bench pressing. They're all doing... They're all at the gym. They're all... There's a new... It's a new generation. They're not drinking. They're taking much more care of... I see chefs... You know, every time I see an emerging... I hate the phrase, celebrity chef or an emerging great chef, they've got their six-packs out on Instagram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels different now, doesn't it? Very much. It really is. And I think that's because, that's not just because that kitchen environment is different, because those people are still attracted to the kitchen, but they're finding it in something else.

41:06It's not necessarily alcohol-led. And at the minute, there is a drive to health, vitality, looking after your body. Like in some cases, unhealthy in terms of mental, but actually the body is a lot healthier than drinking 20 pints of lager. So people are much more connected and that is a generational thing. And then it's manifested itself into kitchens as well. Can we talk then about creating a culture, about hiring people, about sharing your vision, about moving a business in the direction you want it to go? You know, at the beginning you said you used to be the young player, then you became the coach and then the manager.

41:41Now, you know, I suppose you're the owner, right? I don't want to offend any of you, but you're like the glazers of the cook. Sorry, mate. I knew you'd hate that. Mate! Martin Edwards. Yeah, exactly. I knew the mention of those in front of a couple of United fans might cause a problem. No. No, he's Jim Radcliffe now. You're the Jim Radcliffe. I'd love to know how you create culture and what advice you'd give to other people listening to this for adding to a positive nurture and culture in a business. So one of the biggest things that we're so proud of, more than anything else, isn't necessarily the accolades, the awards.

42:19The business has been there, and Hand of Flowers is approaching 19 years old. And we have people that have been in that business 17 15 years 10 years 12 years like that we've got so we must have about 30 people in that company that have done over 10 years with us and we've got another 15 that are approaching 10 you know there's so many people that have been a part of that journey and because lots of them were with us at the beginning when I was that person they were in that and the best way I used to describe it like we used to laugh about it it's like I would dump a load of these people in a rucksack with us and we were going up a mountain.

43:00We are going on this mountain. We are all going together and you're going to push. We're all doing this together. And those people have been with us in that business from the beginning. And they're still the same people that drive the DNA of that business. And it is not something that happens overnight. It's something that you create with a team and it's something that you connect with people. You guys here, I'm sure as you're making this podcast, it's very successful and been going for a long time. I'm sure there's a lot of people that have been on it from the beginning or people that have understood the culture of what you're trying to create.

43:29And you build that. You understand it as well as I do. But you have to connect with individuals. You have to tie them together. You have to build those pieces. You also have to be ruthless and brutal when the people aren't right and get rid of them. Because you can't have, you have to disconnect people. You have to cut them out if they're not in, they have the right mindset. if they're not in the business for the right reason. But you have to have a skill set. Whoever's leading it has to understand people and has to allow people to give them a chance, an opportunity to grow. You have to understand where they're going and what they want to get out of it.

44:08And if you as a company can offer that to them and encourage them. And it is a two-way thing. People have to come into your business with 100%. They want to have to work hard. They want to have to commit to doing something, achieving things. You're trying to achieve the best podcast. We're trying to achieve the best pub. We're trying to achieve, you know, and we have to do that every single day. Every single time you're doing it, you want to create something amazing. So if you're coming into this and you're just, it's just a job. It's just coming, you're just coming to work. You're not the right person.

44:40Now, that's not to say that we don't need people that just come to work because the Hand of Flowers has 19 bedrooms. It's open seven days a week. we need people that work that come to work that will just do i don't know 30 hours a week and just doing a thing because it's part of their life we need those bodies but actually the key the key driving force and those people that just come to work know that when they come into that environment there's some amazing people that have committed you know lourdes who's our general manager has been with us for 17 years she's committed 17 years of her life like katie who's our restaurant manager 15 years this next week 15 years of her life she's committed to a bit now that for me is an honor i'm privileged i'm so like my gosh 15 years of someone's life is absolutely huge to their like growth their determine their determination they want to be a part of it but they've you know i've had their lives their careers in my hands now that is a massive responsibility so i feel like hugely responsible for all of them so you have to connect and understand so building that culture comes from i think you have to connect with individuals and you have to allow them to grow personally and professionally you have to give them opportunities you have to stand back as well let them grow and make mistakes businesses don't grow unless there's mistakes made but what you're describing there tom is really interesting there's some really interesting research that there's three ways we view a task we view it as a job a career or a calling so a job is you just come in and you just you might just be boiling a yeah you're trying to earn some money to make anything yeah some potatoes and it's more about that a career is you want to boil those potatoes as well as you can because you'd like to get a head chef position and a calling is where you're going no no we want to be doing something spectacular we want to be changing the industry we want to be delivering this incredible experience but you've obviously had this sense of calling that moment when you arrived in it how would you describe that so when you're recruiting somebody to come and work with you how do you sort of entice them or seduce them and go this is what we're doing here you can be a part of this so firstly you'd hope that they kind of understand what the business is before they even get there they've done a little bit of research they don't necessarily have to know who i am but they have to know where they're applying for a job what they're doing you know they're coming to a space that has accolades and is recognized and is you know relatively busy in the world of restaurants and is established.

47:04But from a front of house point of view, I've never employed anybody front of house that has experience, have worked in amazing places just on their CV. I've always employed people and we've always employed people that have turned up with a personality. They need to connect. If you connect with a guest when they walk through the door, you say hello, it doesn't matter about the skill set. You can learn all of that. That's just a trade. the personality trait is the most important now that is something that we can't teach that's something that you own as individuals when you walk through that door you either want to be there and you want to be in this world or you don't so if you're front of house you're coming in you say hello nice to meet you how are you great we're in we're on brilliant let's go you you're hired doesn't matter of your skill set because all the other bits we can teach you and they're only processes they're easy to learn you put the plate down there actually the hand of flowers is a very difficult site to run we have 16 tables some are stuck in a corner so they've been the original tables it's been there for 19 nothing's changed but there isn't stand to the right serve to the left there isn't like some of the dishes we have to pass over to the guests because we can't get to them because they're in a corner so it's a two mission star space we're giving you your own food you know it's like but you can only get away with that if you can connect with the guests you can only be hello welcome here you go do you mind taking that like and that's so important their personality traits they're really important and then kitchen skill set the way I always think you can tell that a chef is going to be immersed and good in it is if they have a little sense of self-confidence but not over the top a lot of chefs are over the concept like overconfident like but actually if they come into a kitchen and we're in this world now of social media and Instagram and whatever else and chefs can travel anywhere in the world from social media but if they come into the kitchen and they're on a trial if when it comes to lunch service and the food is at the pass under the hot lights and it all looks amazing before it goes to the guests if they're there looking at that looking at the food on the plate and going oh that looks amazing this is brilliant this is fantastic blah blah blah yeah okay well they're they might be good they're looking at the end result but the chef that you really want is the one that when the produce is in at 8 30 in the morning and they're looking at the piece of fish whole like on the bone the sea bass or they're looking at the beef fillet or they're looking at the they're looking at the pro they're looking at the ingredient and they're going wow i want to do something with that i want to go through the process of cooking not the pretty picture at the end because that pretty picture at the end only exists fucking once right once does the guest have it once do they go take a photo of them for their instagram page the moment they've cut it that's it it's done right that picture's gone so if you've got if it tastes like shit but it looks pretty right the moment you've smashed it up it doesn't look pretty it still tastes like shit like it's got to taste amazing so the chefs that you go these are the ones these are the ones that you can build on are the ones that go these carrots are mega that i've never seen kale like this this sea bass is fantastic though where do you get your cheese from how does that like when they ask process the understanding of the ingredient that's when you go these guys are gonna this they've got potential to go so so far because they're excited about that not the pretty picture and i think there's an interesting thing we can talk about here about you going in and having your attention on those tiny details that we wouldn't even see in the kitchen but you being able to see them but using that not to make people feel intimidated but almost to make people feel like I'm walking alongside Tom Kerridge here like he's a criticism almost being a great thing that you've come over and taken the time to help them yeah every space that I go into no matter where it is whether it's the butcher's tap which we got two of now which is like burgers and fries on a tray, like served, like all the two-missions sign-up.

50:50Everywhere I go into, the first thing I do is go in and I go all around the kitchen, say hello to everyone, fist bump or handshake and just say, how are you getting on? How are you doing? How are you doing? Just that point of connection. I install it in my, actually my eight-year-old now. So when we, when we've had dinner or had lunch or whatever, come on, you have to get, go in the kitchen, say thank you. We have to go in and say thank you. You have to go and say, we have to connect. And that's really, really important to go and say thank you, to go and be a part of, you know, something and that but that culture is then driven by the team it is it you're right like it is their responsibility it's their kitchens to run it's their spaces it's their restaurants it's their front of house teams you know the restaurant managers have to do the same they have to create their own culture but that culture is led by us and me so it is about and you have to allow them to do it you have to let them get on and do it and if they're not doing it you have to point out to them why is it why is this shit they've gone in there and that's not right so when you walk in and what do you look for?

51:45Like, what are the telltale signs that you go, yeah, this is the right place with the right contract? Or the wrong place. Or the wrong place. To be honest, I can't tell you. It's an energy. It's a vibe. I think it's the same as when people talk about how do you create the best restaurant. Like, and you can have, and I'm sure we've all been in it, right, where you've gone and eaten in a Michelin-style restaurant, so you know it's going to be great food. But you go in there and everything is sharp and everything is crisp and pristine and everything is amazing and the food is really good and you go away, you come away and you go, everything was great about that, but I can't quite put my finger on what was, why it's not, why have I not gone?

52:22And it's because it's a connection, it's a soul and that's the most important thing. Some of the best food I've ever had has not been in those tight, sharp restaurants. Some of the best food I have has been in those restaurants. But some of the best food I've had might be, I don't know, cheap fish and chips with malt vinegar sat on a beach, like in Brighton when the wind is blowing and you're sat there with a connect, because it just suits that environment or a taco shack that I had something to eat in Tucson in Arizona. And then there's a queue of people and you've just got this greasy, amazing, put everything about it, it was fantastic.

52:53Or street food in Singapore. You know, those sort of things you go, because there's soul, there's reason. And those are the sort of things you look for. And then when I go into a restaurant and you go into a space, irrespective of mine or somebody else's, you walk into it, it could be just a pub. You walk in, there could be two pubs on the same street, same offering, same thing. You go into one and there's something about it. You go, actually, this is where I want to stay and have a couple of beers with my mates and catch up and do whatever else. You go into the other one and there's just a feeling of, and that comes from an energy and that energy comes from people and then it goes into the building and they're the things that make it work.

53:29And I can't tell you what that is apart from almost a holistic style soul that human beings can give to spaces. and energy and an ethic and a hard work ethic and a care and all of those little bit there's an ingredient that you can't add and it's the same within food and cooking you cannot add um those restaurants you walk away and it's been stark it's because the food's not been cared for it's been pristine it's been put on with tweezers and everything about it is sharp and crisp but it's not about the flavor it's not about the taste it's not done with love like one of the everything has to be done with love biggest thing we say at the hand of flowers is every time a dish goes onto the past before it goes to the guest there has to be a little bit of sadness in the chef that's on the past that he's not eating that dish he's going oh god that looks fucking great that's what i want to eat that that's what you want those are things that when you cook something with love it makes so much more difference and no one can tell you what that your mum's sunday roast the carrots may be overcooked and shit but actually your mum's loved doing it and when you've had it you go it's great it tastes lovely everything about it it's brilliant it's a gift from your mother it's a hug isn't it and that soul honestly I genuinely believe that's something that comes through in food so then can I ask you about because I've never been in kitchens but you've got I've got the impression about they're often quite antagonistic places effing and blinding at each other you know like the Gordon Ramsay image of Hell's Kitchen of calling people out and I'm interested I know that's just a very one dimensional view from yeah from a certain program that i've watched yeah i'm interested in terms of how do you teach people to conduct themselves with each other then because to talk about loving the kitchen to me also replies that you teach each other with respect and dignity and courtesy yeah so i'm interested in terms of how how people behave process of understanding of youngsters coming through and you go you know then you're expecting 22 year olds respect to an eight respect for an 18 year old used to be because at some point that 22 year old was where that 18 year old was and there is it's like being on a training field the day that you the moment you get in there it's the training at eight o 'clock in the morning it's about the training the process no move there stand up there get that going there let's hurry up with that hurry up with that it's not about being aggressive but it is about getting things done right there is there has to be a sense of urgency and a sense of want we're talking about high performance here you can't go there's nothing lazy you can't there's nothing flabby there's nothing flabby about it your business has to be like has to run the kitchen has to run like the guys are at the gym you're committed you're doing it you're you're you're you're working you're working you're there to work and you're working with the process of trying to achieve and at the same point you want to learn so you're asking you're 18 you're asking the 22 year old what's going on there the 22 year old is continually learning from the 26 year old the 26 year old is then learning what you know just taking those that they're all next steps and they're all parts and parts of the journey and it's all about the encouragement and growth and sometimes those environments are too much for people because it is a high pressure environment but you are performing you have to be and sometimes it becomes quite frightening when you're 18 you know 19 you've only had your peer group that you've dealt with they're only being 18 year olds that your friends and the only points of people telling you what to do have been your school teacher or your parents do you know i mean they're so all of a sudden you go into a work environment and there's someone who's a bit older than you a bit more experienced in telling you what to do and then all of a sudden there's a big owner that comes in or the restaurant manager or the thing you know all of a sudden there's so many different levels of understanding finding yourself in society and in a world but kitchens are also very protective they are in their own environment they are you do become part of a team we do know that we've all been there we've all been that 18 year old we've all so yes we do have to kind of find that balance of encouragement, but also there is an expectation level on you to want to own self-progression, to want to drive yourself to high performance.

57:26How do I get the best from me? If you're not pushing yourself, I'm not going to push you. You've got to want it. You've got to want it. Otherwise, there's no point in being there. You can go work somewhere else and do really well as a chef and just enjoy the cooking and just enjoy being there. But if you want to push yourself, you want to progress, you want to go places, then you have to go and work in those sort of environments i love how much we've spoken about the soft skills related to cooking today rather than the hard skills yeah we haven't even spoken about how do you cut the perfect baton yeah you know what i mean like what what makes that's the easy bit but that's but that's where i think a lot of people make the mistake in life they think the hard skills is where they have to focus and you've come in here and you've spoken to us about culture you've you know almost quite spiritual talking about how you create an environment in a kitchen the people that you bring on the journey and connecting to their heart, not their head and all these things.

58:14And before we wrap up with our quickfire questions, I do want to finish talking about the work that you do outside the kitchen. Yeah. Because your desire to reach down and lift other people up is absolutely clear and it's commendable. And we live in a world where I grew up in a house where my mum was a home economics teacher or food technology, they called it in the end, didn't they? And I used to go and sit at the back of the classroom when I finished school early and cook with her and her kids. she's devastated to this day that it's just been downgraded in the kind of standings within school what's the one thing we all do three times a day if we're lucky eat food so i'd love to know from you what do you want our world for young people to look like at in school out of school at home like what should we all be doing to talk about and think about food in the in the right way my god i mean there's so many different points but i i think the world of inequality and poverty Child food poverty is massive.

59:08It's a huge thing. Trying to do a lot of work with Fair Share, setting up the full-time meals campaign that we set up with Marcus a while ago and trying to create an environment and drive free school meals is something I think is incredibly important. The word free should just be removed from it. It should just be school meals, right? Everybody should get, I think, a school meal, right? And I know there'll be a tool, where's the cost coming from? But actually, this is a long-term thing, okay? This is really important. One, it removes stigmatism. If you qualify for free school meals, you have to stand in a different line or you have to get, like, all of a sudden you feel like a different person that's removed from a society space.

59:43Like, you already feel different. You're already in a social standing. You know, you're learning that as an 11-year-old that it's not, that's not right. I mean, that's just not right. So, from school meals should be, for some kids, it's the one hot meal they get that day. it's the one point nutrition um hydration all those sort of things are really important for learning and it's just not those kids that benefit from that it's like the whole classroom you know teachers can then spend you know if you're disruptive if you're a disruptive child because you're not because you're hungry and you've not got enough you haven't had enough to drink eat or drink then your teacher is spending time with the disruptive child not teaching Like even the bright kids who've got school meals, whose parents cook them tea when they go home, we've got that space.

1:00:32Right now, this is a place where actually everyone will benefit from that. Long-term health gain will be huge. An understanding of food and environment. You talk there, your mum, we lost home economics or food tech or whatever it is. And I kind of half understand that. I get it. I get it because in this day and age, reading, writing, a commitment to, I suppose, more curriculum-based learning, I kind of get it. I understand it. It would be a fair argument for someone to push back on that. But then you could go, right, okay. But if we make everyone school meet, school lunch was just part of it. but with that school lunch became came a recipe sheet or an understanding of where those ingredients came from or how it did there could be a bit more of an understanding a connection to food because everyone's sat there eating it in the same environment and they're all having the same thing their school meals have come on so much more from when we were kids right like they're massive they're amazing when you go and see them actually some of the companies that are doing amazing incredible things with it but the other big problem is most companies that are doing it they're boardroom led they're companies they're there for profit they're there for profit now even if that profit is like two pence on a school meal they're still making a profit out of school meals how's that right I mean we shouldn't be making companies shouldn't be making a profit out of school meals when some kids don't even qualify their parents qualify for universal credit but they don't qualify for a free school meal because on the means testing there is a different means testing for the free school meal well if you qualify we already know then if you qualify for universal credit your parents are in a position here where there is an economic challenge that they're facing I think you know it's but it there's so many really awkward and horrible juxtapositions particularly when it comes to food poverty that but a lot of it can be helped with universal credit instantly meaning that you qualify for free school meals the term free being dropped and everyone just getting school meals and a form of education that could come into a classroom from that point of view I think would be a great would be a wonderful starting point that's that's a first point I think well done very very well said final question before the quick fires we sit here today it's been an incredible journey yeah you have so many things in front of you I loved what you said at the beginning that you almost don't feel successful because I think that's the trait of a lot of high performance people but what is it today like what drives you now to get up to write the books to make the tv shows to run the restaurants to nurture the next generation the fear factor of everything drives me to keep me going that's a massive one but also because I love it.

1:03:06I love the world of hospitality. I love restaurants. I love chefs. I love front of house teams. I love guests. I love creating those environments. We have six spaces and I love everything about it. Like I said, right at the beginning, 18 years old, fell into a space when I'm so lucky to have gone, wow, this is amazing. And I still love it. So the two driving forces of fear but also because it is what I do. You know, it is what I am. It is what I do. If all the media stuff ended, if all the books ended, if all the restaurants but one ended, I'm cool. It's great. I'm still in it. I still love it.

1:03:41I absolutely love it. And that I'm massively grateful. Very good. Right. Ready for some quick fire questions? The three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you should buy into? Communication skills, which is massive. Saying hello, being a part of something. Encouragement of people around you. And that's so important. Recognising that you you have been that person you're not you're not straight away this legend that knows everything you're not and we're still it's still a learning curve right so recognition that encouragement it is massive um and i think the the other one is no never fear getting something wrong don't don't fear making mistakes like making mistakes are so important to progression they really are they're so important to you know don't keep making the same mistake because that's just stupid but like make a mistake learn from it move on like and don't don't let it because it's also in the past there's no point in dwelling on something so make mistakes don't be scared of making mistakes they're part of a growth process brilliant if you could only have one food for the rest of your life what would you pick?

1:04:45well I get asked this quite a lot so by one food you mean like a sausage or like if you see because I can black it and go pork right because you can make so much you can nose to tail eating you can make ham bacon sausages like there's so much I go pork or dairy. So either one, dairy, because then you've got cheese, butter, you've got creme fraiche, you've got cream you can make. But pushed, I would say pork. What's the one killer question you love asking when you meet a new potential hire to really understand them? Where was the last place you ate and what did you enjoy about it? And I want them to say, I'm quite happy for them to say McDonald's.

1:05:23I'm quite happy for them to say KFC. Do they ever? Yeah, sorry? Do they ever? Sometimes, yeah, yeah. Don't play to them. Yeah, something like Late Night Domino's. Like, I'm quite happy. And what did you enjoy? What was good about that? And I quite like the fact, listen, Big Mac Burger Sauce is great. There's a reason why that burger has been around for ages. And it's like, I don't ever eat them. Like, I'm not into the fast food, actually. But there's something about that burger sauce, the connection of, like, the mustard and the mayonnaise and the chopped gherkins and the thing. Like, there's a flavor profile.

1:05:54There's an understanding. So I don't mind. Like, I like, it doesn't matter what the answer is. Like, they think I'm looking for them saying, oh yeah the fat duck or like you know like something the ledbury or wherever it is like super exciting but I want them to be like brutally honest and what did you like about it nice brilliant and finally your one golden rule I guess for living a high performance life what's the what's the last message you'd like to leave people with after this really interesting wide ranging fascinating conversation it is commitment I think it's commitment and sacrifice I think for anybody to achieve anything if I look back at the amount that I've sacrificed and risk and I'm backing yourself and they're all they're all intertwined I think and I think you have to do it you have to but nobody else is going to do it for you the only person that can do this is you so the only person that has to put that risk is you the only person that has to push themselves is you and you can be surrounded by lots of people telling you that's what you got to do but if you don't do it it's only you that can do it so it it's risk, it's sacrifice and it's commitment.

1:07:00And that makes it sound like it's a really shit thing. Because if you say to everyone, you have to risk everything, you have to sacrifice so much and you have to be fully, fully committed. How many people go, oh yeah, that's for me. It makes it sound like it's really shit. But actually the benefits of that are massive. They're huge. You are in control of your own destiny. And I wouldn't swap that for anything. What a conversation. Thank you so much. I love that. Pleasure, James. I love that. Pleasure.

1:07:35Damien. Jake. I love the fact that that conversation was about a chef, but not about cooking. It was about a chef, but it was about people. And it's clear that it's people that drive him on when he says, I love the industry. I love front of house. I love back of house. He loves people. He loves the human connection, I think. Yeah, definitely. It was like that famous Howard Schultz quote, the founder of Starbucks, who said, we're not a coffee business serving people, we're a people business serving coffee. And I think Tom's a great example of that, that he's not just creating restaurants serving people, he's got people serving incredible food.

1:08:10And I think putting people at the heart of it is the secret of his success. He said there is no secret, but I think in the conversation, that's what he was revealing. And also, I think there's an important lesson that we can all take here, which is don't think that there's a certain way to find success and only that way. you know it's none of us would recommend it but the incredible amount of alcohol he drunk and the way that he went about leading people into that world of drinking and the drinking culture in his early restaurant as he said absolutely tied to the success he sat here and said if i hadn't done that i wouldn't be sitting here now i wouldn't have had the success that i had and i think it's an interesting thing for us to explore that we think we know what a healthy culture is or a high performance culture looks like.

1:08:53But he actually created a high performance culture, the likes of which I don't think other people have done before or since. Yeah, I think there's a really key point here that Charles Handid, the management writer, talks about that Tom articulated in real practical terms. He talks about, think of changes as an upturned you. So you go through that first stage where you're climbing the mountain, where you get into the top of the U. And what drove him to do that was that beer fuel culture that he had, that we work hard, we play hard. But then the U also, once you've reached the top, starts to go downwards if you're not prepared to reinvent it and do something different.

1:09:31And I think the courage to look at that and go, this isn't sustainable, it's got us to the top, but it's not going to keep us there. We're only going to go one way, which is down, unless we're prepared to reinvent it and come up with a more healthy, sustainable way of creating such great product. And I think that's the key to him, that he was self-aware enough and willing to take a risk. There's like a great story, I remember reading years ago about Sir Cameron Mackintosh, where when he had the play Cats, he went in and fired most of the staff that had worked there. And he described it as long-run-itis.

1:10:07They'd been there too long and it was almost like they were that comfortable with what they were doing. They'd stopped appreciating the nature and the art and the craft of it. And Tom sort of recognised the long-run itis and the danger of it and was prepared to reinvent himself. There's a lesson there for all of us. Absolutely, there is. A great conversation. And thank you so much for sharing the thoughts you did with us. He's an amazing individual. And I also love the fact that he doesn't feel he's been successful. It makes me think there's a lot more still to come from Tom Kerridge. Well, for all of us, yeah.

1:10:39I think that idea of saying that you've got to love what you do first of all, but it's also got to be driven by that sense of a little bit of fear of I could still do more and I love what he said about you've got to keep your love just ahead of the fear and keep it in that balance and work hard like we often talk around this but we don't talk about it there is no substitute for hard work and here's the epitome of hard work thanks a lot mate brilliant thanks mate look I hope you really enjoyed that there's only one thing we ask and that's if you can just please hit subscribe, hit the follow button.

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