Tom Walker: Why struggle is the price of success (E252)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. going for so long. When you get to the thing that you've always wanted to achieve since you were a kid, you wonder like, oh do I deserve to be here? You know, I have to kind of fight the inner demons about that. The whole journey to get to this point has been a long road and I can guarantee it is the best thing. If you want to get something really good, you often have to struggle to get there. That is singer-songwriter Tom Walker and this is High Performance. Prepare to hear the unfiltered truth about life in the music industry from a man who shot to fame in 2018 with the incredible Leave a Light On.

1:05But you're about to hear about the challenges that success can bring. I just want to take a brief moment to thank Tom for his vulnerability because being vulnerable is a superpower. It encourages others to do the same and when we're all vulnerable we can truly be ourselves which is a key component to high performance. But for now let's do it and welcome Tom Walker to high performance. And before we get going, a quick word from our partners who allow us to give you this content absolutely free.

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3:22Tom, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Nice to see you. It's a pleasure. What is high performance in your mind? I think it's being able to achieve the things that you always dreamed of while maintaining a high level of happiness. If you can achieve both of those things, like the things that you always dreamed of doing as a kid and actually managed to make a living out of them, which I have managed to do so far, but then keep it on a level, like manage to balance your family and your friends and your partner and all that and keep a high level of happiness, I think that is, to me, like high performance.

3:59Have you managed to do it? Sometimes, yeah. You know, I've had more ups and downs. I find this job can be such a rollercoaster of these huge highs and then massive lows and there's never really anywhere in the middle, which makes it, you know, a very interesting job. There's never a dull day, never a boring moment. But sometimes, you know, it feels like you're putting everything into it and getting nothing and sometimes you get in the absolute world back from it. So I try my best to balance it. As I've gotten older, I've definitely managed it a lot better than at the start. So what would you be doing now in 2024 that maybe you weren't doing in 2018, 2019 that's really helpful for you?

4:38Just trying to say no to certain things. I think at the beginning of my career, management, label, everybody was like, you've got to do everything. You've got to take your after ball, you're going to lose it all and all this kind of a bit. it's not really fair to put that on somebody, you know, if you don't do this one thing, your career's over kind of business. And it wasn't that phrase like that, but it kind of insinuated. And I've tried to make a lot more time for my mates, my family, my partner, Annie, and just that definitely helps, you know, having that normality and that kind of rock in your life that is, you know, my friends, my family and my wife.

5:15That keeps me going. And what were the consequences of not doing that before? just being like just too much you know there's only so much you can do I remember having a breakdown in a car park in Germany because we'd just been going for so long waking up at four in the morning flying to a different city you know doing loads of promo then the gig going to bed dead late getting up again having no sleep and the more you do that the more delirious you start getting and the unhappier you get and that builds up and you know it really reached a point where I was like literally crying in a car park having a meltdown with my tour manager on a Wednesday in the middle of like, you know, Berlin or something going.

5:57I think I might need to go home and take a bit of time off. And when was that? That was probably 2019 or 2018. One of the two of those. See, this is the really interesting thing I think we need to talk about for people. Like, Tom Walker playing the guitar in his bedroom at 16 years old would have given everything to be winning Brits and playing at Glastonbury and getting number one songs. Yeah. Yeah, that's also the time you're breaking down in the car park and crying. I think we talk about one side of the coin, but not the other often. Yeah, I think there's just only so much you can do. And when everything's going well, you want to do everything to your own detriment sometimes.

6:40And I really pushed the boundaries of what I was actually capable of doing before it really got to me. And you know, it's such a strange job being an artist in the music industry because it's so different for every artist. Every journey is so different. And the point you kind of enter the business changes every five years. So advice changes, and there's no rule book per se. You're just learning on your feet. So sometimes you have to make these mistakes or have these dark days before you kind of realise right I need to start looking after myself I need to make provisions for this and you know my team have been amazing I'm not bad-mouthing anybody they have realised okay there's the limit let's try and keep it below that and you know if I'm happy they're happy I want them to be happy otherwise I'm you know not doing a good job so it goes around doesn't it So take us to the high point then Yeah that bit of award when you're on stage you've got all the acclaim you've achieved what I imagine is a bit of a childhood dream come true yeah well first of all I had no idea I was going to win I really had written it off I was four beers in at the table because it was three beers you know the label were paying I was like come on let's have it I really thought there was just no chance because I was up against you know Mabel, Georgia Smith huge artists massive followings you know very attractive people and in my mind I was like there's no way you know what I mean so when they called out my name I literally had had nothing prepared at all but luckily my parents were there and I will say that you know I was a bit annoyed with the whoever sorts out the Brits or the label or whatever I couldn't get parents for me my parents tickets for the Brits my mum being the chief blagger that she is knew a guy that knew a guy and managed to get tickets so when I won my parents were actually there so I was so buzzing I got to share that moment with my mum and dad because they have been, you know, just so encouraging from the get-go.

8:42Not a lot of parents are like, yeah, be a musician. That's an easy career path. You know, everyone makes it in that industry. And they were amazing and really saw that I loved it and I was passionate about it. So sharing that after party with them when we were at the top of the Shard, I just won my first Brit Award. All my mates were there because I managed to blag them into this after party, basically saying, I've won a Brit Award tonight. My mates are coming in. To the bounce on the door, he was like, all right, I've got no idea who you are, but fair enough. And then just being on the top of that building in London and that iconic moment was just, I don't know, something I'll never ever forget.

9:16It was just such an amazing night. And did you allow yourself a moment to let it soak in? I did. I just sat, just the three of us, looked out the window of the Shard and just thought, you know, we all just looked at each other like, what just happened there? That was absolutely mad. And then after that, it just got even crazier, you know, selling out shows and travelling the world and going to places like Japan, a place I'd never dreamed of going or never been, and playing gigs there and, you know, appearing on festival lineups in, you know, New Zealand, Australia, just incredible. I'm interested, before we talk about what happened after that period, where it all began.

9:56When I say to you, when did the journey start, what is the memory that pops up in your head? My dad took me to see ACDC when I was nine and he was late to the party buying tickets so he couldn't go in England so he was like, well they're playing in Paris, we'll just go there so I think we got the Eurostar to Paris, me and him couldn't figure out how to wear any of the subway kind of underground in Paris so we were jumping over barriers to try and get to this gig on time that we were already late for because my dad just hadn't really figured out France and neither had I because I was nine. And just seeing, it was like an open air theatre, almost like a big football stadium, kind of a roof over the crowd, but not in the middle.

10:43And the sun coming down on a beautiful day in Paris, ACDC coming on, the whole stadium lighting up with these people wearing these battery-powered devil horns, Angus Young coming out, dressed as a schoolboy, shredding the guitar. and I just thought, this is the maddest thing I've ever witnessed in my life. I want to do this as my job. And that was definitely the defining moment for me where I decided, if I could manage to do that, that would be the best thing ever. So what's the first thing you did to try and turn that dream into a reality? I begged him for a guitar. Really? Yeah, for like, I think a good two years before he caved, because I was initially playing violin at the time.

11:20Anyway, so after begging for two years, eventually, one Christmas, he bought me a guitar and I sat in my room every day, just playing and becoming so obsessed with it. And I was quite a recluse in some respects at that age because I was so obsessed with just playing music and being in my bedroom and just learning everything I could about guitar. Honestly, it was better back then than I am now because I played every single day. And what was it about playing the guitar that so appealed? I just thought it was the coolest thing ever, if I'm honest with you. I really did. And I just thought bands and rock music was the best thing I'd ever heard.

11:55And I just wanted to learn the craft. My dad, he had such a huge collection of music. He's got like more than 600 CDs in the house and he's obsessed with music quality. He won't mess about with streaming services or anything. It has to be a vinyl or a CD. It has to be like top quality. It's got this ridiculous set of speakers he saved up for for eight years to buy that are like this high off the floor. Cables are this thick, you know what I mean? Bright neon blue. my mum hates them so he just his love for music just really inspired me and getting to hear all those amazing bands and have such an eclectic collection because it would be classical music rock he was listening to Deadmau5 Prodigy like you know Daniel Beddingfield like just everything it didn't matter to him he just loved it all so he was a a key figure in me falling in love with all that stuff and lots of young people have that dream there's loads of people like you were at 9 or 10 or 11 with your guitar.

12:53Yeah. What fascinates us is the people that take the next step, which you did. Yeah. So on reflection, what was the thing that made the difference? Do you know what? The biggest thing for me that I think was really pivotal in my life was I spent a year working in a pub, started as a pot washer and then worked up to starters and desserts. I was terrible at it, I must say. Awful chef. you know but they liked me so then I never got fired but I just realized like it was so much graft six days a week one day off crazy hours not a lot of money and I was like I can't do this for the rest of my life I'm not very good at it I don't really enjoy it and it's so it's so much hard work I was like I really should go and try and do a degree in music because I really want to make something of that because otherwise I couldn't see an option I was so unacademic like you know I've got an A star in music four C's of D and an E for my GCSEs so the choice was really kind of clear for me but it really was that slog of realising in the real world you know doing a job like this six days a week if you don't enjoy it it's going to be hard work and it's not going to be something that makes me you know really happy whether it's like if I could do music seven days a week 24 hours a day I knew that I'd be absolutely buzzing But as a lad that as you've just described you were quite insular like being in your room what was it about music was it to be a musician or did you see it as working just in the industry in general?

14:30Honestly I would have done anything I wanted to be a guitarist initially I didn't actually start singing until I moved to London when I was 19 so I didn't sing at all like I really wasn't I was late to the party on the singing front and I thought just being a guitarist in a band would be so cool But also I just loved playing guitar and it's kind of felt like this odd freedom to me where I could kind of lose myself in it, you know. In the same way that you have a beer to de-stress, I felt like at the time having a go on the guitar, I just got lost in it and everything kind of disappeared that I was worried about in life.

15:02And were you writing your own stuff or were you just covering and learning the craft of what others had done? I was kind of writing all these guitar riffs but then forgetting them and they would just vanish. and one day my dad, without me asking him, he just came home and he said, every week I can hear you're playing something new and different in that bedroom. Here's a recording device. I don't know how it works. Figure it out. You should really start recording all this stuff that I hear because every week it gets lost and you don't remember it. So I just figured it out. It was like a little six-track recorder.

15:32So unbeknownst to him, he got me into music production because I was like, oh, cool, that's amazing. You know, and then I just figured that out and eventually bought a drum kit off my neighbour. and I was like oh maybe I could get into drumming just magically pick that up and then bought a bass off one of the guys at school and then I was like bloody hell it's a one man band here I can record it all together I can make a whole band and then I was like well I'm going to need a singer now but I can't really sing but I would try and then never show anybody the songs like ever because I couldn't sing like if you listen to some of the stuff back in the day I saw Red Sheeran do an amazing interview where he like played out some of his early stuff and he's like I wasn't born like this I've worked really hard to be a good singer and it's like some people are just born and they can do these amazing runs but I really had to work at it um and it was kind of doing all that I was like I just kind of started writing songs and thought okay well maybe I could do a degree in music and initially applied for the guitar course in London and got turned down because they were like you're not good enough at guitar which I was like okay absolutely savage but they were like there's a songwriting course and we think that'll be amazing for you and then I ended up doing that and that was kind of the start of me writing songs, some of which ended up on my first album.

16:44Can you take us inside that process? You know, what does hard work really look like? What are the hours like? What is the, what's the mental acrobatics you're playing at those, in those periods? I think, I mean, certainly at the start of my career, trying to get everything going, taking every single opportunity, not saying no to anything. That's a different thing because it's not like all your time spent on music, it was doing things like this. That was the biggest jump for me. I'd never done interviews, I'd never been on TV. No one can teach you how to be your personality or come across well or any of that stuff.

17:20That was real hard work for me. I get nervous, I get sweaty, I'm an awkward character. So jumping into that was one of the hardest things but I also find it really difficult on the other side all of a sudden being like okay you've got this job in music now and we're going to pay you to be inspired be inspired on this day because this is when your album's due i found that really difficult because you can't i can't personally choose when i'm going to write a great song that people are going to like and believe me i've tried yeah but they come at the weirdest times you know like just you and i one of my biggest songs on the first album top 10 in the uk and a bunch of other places came to me at three o 'clock in the morning when i was in bed trying to get to sleep thinking oh this is quite a good idea i should really just go down to the studio and just just start recording it in case it it leaves forever went downstairs spent six hours recording and finishing the entire song writing it all in one sitting someone's coming up got into bed woke up the next day and thought oh this is this is pretty good this if i'd gone to bed that night and not got out of bed that song would have never existed so it's like trying to seize those moments and opportunities when they come is really key for me i think and what what does it look like in your in your head when a song comes to you like what are you what you're hearing and seeing in your head like a melody and and sometimes a lyric but with the chord i can kind of sometimes hear the whole thing and how it's going to sound in theory then picking up the instrument and trying to get is sometimes a bit more difficult.

18:54And we've sort of leapt ahead a few places here, or a few periods, because we're now talking about when you've got a record deal. Yeah. Let's just rewind a bit to Tom, who is now doing the music degree, writing songs, learning the guitar, recording stuff himself. Yeah. What was inspiring you at that time? Which musicians or which people were you watching and seeing and thinking, that is what I want to be? So many people. More than musicians and artists of that time, it was moving to London. And, you know, the town I grew up in, there was no musicians to play with. You know, a couple of my mates in the next town played, but they weren't really bothered.

19:38You know, they were kind of all right, but they just couldn't be arsed, basically. So when I got to going to uni, I couldn't believe how good people were. I thought I was like shit hot and then I rock up and I'm like oh my god these people are all so much better than me they're all unbelievable I need to get better I need to listen to what they're listening to I need to jam with them that was such an amazing terrifying thing that really made me progress as a musician something I miss doing these days you know like just going and playing with random people and jamming in random bars and all that kind of thing Can I just pause you there though and ask you to take us into your thought process because there's two paths you can go down there, I imagine.

20:24You get down to London, you think you're good, you get a dose of self-awareness of, actually, these people are a lot better. How did you decide that I need to work harder to get to their level as opposed to let that threaten your own confidence? I mean, I think it did both. Definitely the first few weeks I was like, I don't know if I can hack this. Right. because everyone's so much further ahead. I mean, certainly in terms of music theory, like, I do everything by ear. I still don't, I can't read music still. I don't know all the things that amazing session musicians would be able to know, like shouting out the number of the chord and being able to take it there immediately, like something I've never really learned.

21:07But the songwriting bit of it, I was, it just came so naturally to me. That was 25 % of the course. The other was theory and then music production and then this weird business part of the course that ended up having nothing to do with music business. So I was so confident in the songwriting bit and I felt like I was not ahead of other people but had a really good grasp on it. And also I had the ability to record because like I said, my dad had bought me that thing. I'd spent time trying to get good sound out of a drum kit, trying to get a good guitar sound. I was kind of a bit ahead in some areas.

21:41So I was like, okay, well, focus on the things I'm really great at. Nice. And, you know, I smashed those, like got ridiculous in the songwriting module and then in the kind of production module as well and was trading work with people because I couldn't do the music theory. I don't know what it is about it, but I've just never got a grasp on it. So you're doing their work and they were doing yours. They were doing mine, yeah. But it was a win-win, you know. They couldn't do the music production. They couldn't get their head around it. And I just, it made sense to me. So how do we get from there to the day where you're a professional musician?

22:12I mean, a lot of luck, but then also a lot of graft. there were so many amazing musicians in my uni who deserve to be you know in the charts and doing really well or playing with the best bands so why you i don't know if i'm honest i think because i a lot of them after uni gave it a year and then were like oh this isn't for me and i was like are you kidding me we've just spent three years you're gonna give it one year and not everyone's circumstances the same like I was lucky that I managed to get a few part-time jobs and have some help from parents so that I could continue to live in London and let's be honest like as a student this is not you know the city to be in it's so pricey it's a nightmare to get a flat you know Sheffield used to go there every weekend because my missus was there that's the dream mate they're all living in these bloody mansions with gardens and having the best time ever and going out with a tenner and coming back with change and getting a taxi and a pizza and four beers and you're thinking, have you managed that?

23:15So it is hard to make it in this city. And I think having the right help, meeting the right people, like two of my songwriting tutors, Jez Ashurst, who I had in the first year, Mark Vallance, who I had in the third year, you know, really helped me and took a personal interest in, you know, helping me kind of craft as like you know helping me like become a better writer essentially you know really honing my craft in with them and then giving me personal feedback on songs and helping me make the productions better and taking a keen interest because they could maybe see something you know i mean which they didn't have to do because you know after class they could just be like i'm not bothered you know i'll see you next week kind of thing what was the kind of preparation you were doing.

24:02So when these opportunities opened up, you were ready to go out there and make your mark. Well, the amazing thing about the degree is because 25 % of it was songwriting, I was writing songs every day for three years. So when the opportunity came to get into the music business, I was like, I've got catalogs of ideas, songs, starters. So I was kind of ready on that front. And also, I'm not going to lie, I completely blagged my way through the door. One of my mates had done a remix of a song of mine. and that is the end the reason I ended up getting signed was was the remix he'd done so it was my song that I'd written but he'd done the production on it and my management had heard it at the time and they were like this sounds so fresh it's amazing like can you give us more stuff like this and I was like absolutely no problem I had no idea how to do what he had done with the remix he helped me out with it and I kind of learned as I was going but it is a case of being like of course I can do that no worries and then behind closed doors going oh shit shit shit shit shit what am I going to do how am I going to get there but finding a way and just getting on with it you also mentioned graft yeah tell us what that looks like for you I mean just giving it everything even when it feels like you're getting nothing back and believe me there's so many times where I've felt like that over the last give us an example well like you know before I'd like leave a light on and come out I'd had a few successes but you know nothing that song changed my life overnight and it's hard to explain to people like just keep going because one thing could change everything like everything because it went from me being this small UK artist to people who were around on the kind of underground gigging scene in London had maybe heard of to like my song's playing in every shop in PC world because it's got a sync on the Sony Bravia advert.

26:00I remember going in there at Christmas, right? I felt so bad for the staff. It was playing on all the Sony TVs in there, completely out of time with each other, all over Christmas. And I was in the shop just like, oh my God, this is so bad. If I was working an ear off B &L, it's not even in time. It's not even in time, you know what I mean? Who has orchestrated this for these poor staff? But that's the difference, you know. A song like that can change everything. There's so many artists who have had that song who I'm sure will tell you the same thing. Don't give up. Keep going. Take us into the day that you created that song and whether you thought at that time, ah.

26:35Oh no, I wish I could sit here and be like, I knew that was a hit song when I wrote it. But I think it's actually so self-deprecating and you overanalyse everything you do. It is good to have people who are like, this is a really great song. You're missing something here. I wouldn't be a good A &R because I have this honeymoon phase with every song, all right, thinking this is unbelievable this have you heard this and that you know people yeah but sometimes they're like that is really an amazing song but with leave a light on for example which was the thing that really was hugely pivotal for me it was the first day that i'd had with a producer called steve mac who i'd never worked with before i'd never met and we went into the studio um i'd lost my auntie close to that time and it was a real shock for me and my family and also one of my best mates was going for a really rough ride and I just put those two experiences into that song and really got, you know, it's kind of weird writing because you get right in with someone you've never met and all of a sudden they know about your auntie that's passed away and your mate that's going through troubles and you're having like a therapy session with this bloke you've just met, you know what I mean?

27:49And we just clicked and it just came together in four hours and it was done and that was it. But one bit we haven't covered, Tom, is you actually choosing to sing. Because that's an incredibly intimate thing to want to do. You're making yourself vulnerable to sing. And I'm interested, when did you decide that you were going to do that? It was because of my first year tutor, Jez Ashurst. I really didn't think I was much of a singer. And he said, your voice is super distinctive. and it's like technically not the best, but with a bit of work, I think he would really stand out. And I'd never really thought about that before because my voice is quite distinctive.

28:34It's raspy and a bit different and kind of stands out, but he really pushed me to pursue that. Do you know what I mean? Which gave me the confidence to actually give it a go. I don't think I would have done it. If I'd had a different teacher, I think I'd be in a completely different position now. And I've gone on with Jez to write a few songs that have made it onto my first EP, my first album, and now my second album. And, you know, we're mates now, which is amazing. But tell us about that first time when you stand in front of a microphone with an audience staring back at you and you open your mouth.

29:05Like, how do you prepare for that? Well, I was kind of always doing that with my mates back home. Like, I was singing for a select number of people occasionally around the campfire where I grew up. And I had one song called Yellow Line. that was basically a rip-off of Sweet Home Alabama, but had all the kind of bits in our town in it, mentioned it, and they would always get me to play it. It became like our national anthem for our little tiny town. So that as well, I kind of liked the buzz of that, but it was my best mate, so I didn't really know. But the first time I did a gig where it was well-received, it feels like a drug, you know?

29:52it's I don't know because you work so hard on all the music and putting together a band or putting together a set or you know writing all these lyrics you work so so hard on it you really hope that when you take it into the world that people are going to like it and when they do it's an amazing feeling because you know it's just that feeling of validation I guess but I wouldn't say that's why I do it but it is a very nice kind of byproduct of it what happens when they don't Oh, God, mate. Yeah, soul-destroying. I still do care too much about messing little things up and just the way that I come across in general in things like this or on stage tends to be a bit of an overthinker.

30:40So definitely with age, letting go of that stuff is very helpful, I think. And often the best musicians and artists don't really care about that stuff. And how have you learned to do that? Just by doing it more, you know. This job should be fun, you know what I mean? I had to have a real chat with myself about that at one point because I felt like I was doing gigs that I wasn't enjoying because I was giving myself such a hard time about every little note that I missed or the tuning in my voice not being perfect and a few bum notes and missing a chord on the guitar. Like, sometimes imperceivable things that my missus would be like, I didn't notice any of that stuff but I was really letting it get to me really not enjoying the gigs because of it and thinking I'm not good enough to do this maybe I shouldn't be doing this but you know selling out venues at the same time but there's got to be a balance because it was getting to the point where I was caring so much I thought maybe I shouldn't do this anymore you know it's like really giving myself a really hard time about it so there's definitely a balance what period are you talking about here then?

31:49Again, just when things got really big. I think that was quite a tough year overall to, I guess, 2019, when everything just went absolutely wild. Are you comfortable taking us into one of those moments, one of those gigs? Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't know. There's just nights where I've just absolutely fucked it, basically. I once walked on stage in Sheffield and I left the microphone in the dressing room. I mean, so when I walked on, there was no microphone there. and the first song was there, so I had to run over to Laura Oakes, who does backing vocals for it. I ran over to grab her mic, but then she stood there dancing, but doesn't have a mic.

32:31I was like, this is the worst start to a show ever. And then during that same show, there was a fight in the crowd, during just you and I, which is like a very romantic song. Just everything that could have gone wrong that day went wrong, and I really held myself personally responsible because I left that microphone in the dressing room and I just felt like it had kicked off a series of bad events that came from that one moment when I just could not get how big of a fuck-up it was out of my head and it ruined the whole gig for me. And then afterwards I felt terrible. And my mates, you know, were having a laugh about it.

33:05They thought it was hilarious, but then the rest of the gig, they were like, cool gig kind of thing. But I really got in a bad way about it afterwards and I just didn't think you know it wasn't good enough but it's not the end of the world is it you know you've done 127 gigs in a week in a year you forget your microphone on one of them there's a bit of a ruckus in the crowd these things are going to happen but at the time I really gave myself a tough time what do you mean by gave myself a tough time just was beating myself up about it you know telling myself I wasn't good enough to do it I should do something else because I don't deserve to be a full imposter syndrome I've found myself struggling with that you know when you get to the thing that you've always wanted to achieve since you were a kid, you wonder, like, oh, do I deserve to be here?

33:48And, you know, I have to kind of fight the inner demons about that sometimes. It's so strange, Damien, isn't it? Because how many times have we had people sit in the same room as us saying, I'd spent my whole life dreaming of something, and the minute that I got it, it was the hardest part of my whole life. Yeah, yeah. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Minmobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider.

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36:12do you think some of it though was about it sounds like things had blown up and was almost out of your control yeah and some of this perfectionism was a way of trying to establish control i think it was that and also i felt like i didn't have enough time to actually put into the music bit of it and the rehearsals and the actual getting as good as we needed to be to do the level of show I wanted to do because there was so much other stuff that had nothing to do with music you know the tv shows and the social media and the interviews and just they're not getting enough sleep and all of it just was getting in the way of the bit that I you know really loved and because of that I was starting to not love the bit that I got into the whole industry to do which was the gigs and and and showing people you know the songs I spent years writing and that was concerning that all, you know, everything getting so much was causing me to not like.

37:11They're the whole main reason I started doing music. Because it's a different skill set, isn't it? We spoke about this when we had a book out last year that writing the book is one skill set. Selling it is a very different skill set. Yeah, absolutely. They're not always compatible. 100 % yeah. So what was it you found difficult about going out on TV and selling your music, selling your brand? Just was so not used to doing it. I felt like I was wildly unprepared for all of it. I'd had years playing guitar, writing songs, practicing, doing music, recording, getting good at production. I'd had no time at any of the other stuff.

37:49So it was really into the deep end. And that makes me uncomfortable. I don't like things changing too quickly. I'm not very because of it, you know. Creature of habit. I've had the same 12 mates for the last 30 years, basically, you know. so I think it just took some adjustment from me it's understandable though isn't it because this is suddenly very different right and when someone goes you're going to do a really big TV show you're going to do a huge spread in a national newspaper you're going to sing with Kate Middleton playing the piano everything at that point is ludicrous yeah right so A how do you say no to any of this ludicrous stuff because it's it's all an experience that you may well never get again yeah but also I imagine that you you were so inexperienced that you weren't able to have a voice.

38:36You were kind of like, well, you lot are the experts, tell me what I need to do. But then that fear at the back of your head going, you're not doing the thing that's got you to this point, which is writing and singing and getting enough sleep and preparing. Yeah, 100%. I don't like the, if you take your eye off the ball for a minute, you know, your career's over. And I don't think it's true, especially now for artists. it's if you're not constantly on social media if you're not constantly doing tiktoks if you're not constantly reinforcing your brand every single day and climbing every mountain that you're going to be a failure and there definitely is an aspect of working hard but it can't be at the expense of your mental health you know you've got to find a balance and i think music companies in general record labels social media companies need to you know work on healthier ways of kind of getting artists into all that well it's very binary isn't it and the like the way you're describing it induces a sense of anxiety in me because i'm hearing the catastrophe of everything you've worked for will be gone if you don't do this yeah so there's no shades of gray there yeah so how have you learned to be comfortable in those shades of gray well i said known to a few things and still had a career you know and learnt to be like okay we can pick and choose the things that I think are really important to do but what led you to do that because I having that breakdown in that car park and snapping and being like I can't keep going like this something's going to have to be done and I think you know my whole team realised that as well that I wasn't in a good way just because we'd done so so much and travel it's the travelling as well I can't describe to you like it takes so much out of you flying in and out of countries getting on buses getting on trains like having the ridiculous work hours no sleep it's such a blur you wake up you don't even know where you are you look out the window of the bus and you think where are we today?

40:43such a strange feeling to have not actually knowing the city you've woken up in because the train just keeps on moving but is there anything for our listeners that might be recognising that they're almost on this fast-moving train themselves that you could pass on to say, you don't need to be breaking down in a car park before you learn to say no. Is there anything you'd pass on? Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult one because sometimes people aren't in a position where they're fortunate enough to be like, I'm not going to come into work for a week. Do you know what I mean? The thing is, I technically work for me, really.

41:26I'm signed to the record label, but I can choose to do or not do anything I want to do. Now, obviously, the realities of things are, you have to do certain things for your career. So it's a hard one to say, if you're feeling this way, sack your work off, don't go in, take a mental health week. Because I think people get annoyed with that because they're like, I can't do that. So what am I supposed to do? and I totally get that because I've worked in kitchens as a chef where you cannot not come in even if you're ill because there's no replacement the whole service will be done the 120 people you've got coming in aren't going to be you can't just not turn up so I would say to people to try and approach whoever they're working with if you're having a tough time give them some advance notice that you're like look I'm really struggling I'd like to look at taking some time off at the soonest opportunity to look after myself and then when I'm feeling a bit better we can discuss a return and a plan of action if you have the opportunity to do that It's great advice and I guess in some ways for you time off was enforced because you had this huge wonderful explosion of success and then Covid came Yeah, see I did not get on with that I loved the first three months I mean, amazing but like I said it's the same thing with that whole train keeps moving and you're like I don't know where I am I don't know what's going on all of a sudden it stops after four years of moving and I was just at home like oh my god great time off time with my missus just put our first house together like literally no reason to complain about nothing plenty of money to pay the mortgage we've just got happy fucking days you know what I mean yeah like such a fortunate position to be in at the age of 30 and then just after three months I just I started to lose it really struggled just like having that much time with my own thoughts and not being able to go out and gig and just I think it was not I think it was like almost a chemical thing of the rush that you get doing those gigs it feels almost like a drug right and not having that in your life I really struggled with it because I'd had just four, five years of a couple times a week having that rush having that high being in the studio like being excited working with new amazing people I haven't got the opportunity to so I stopped getting those like dopamine hits I've really struggled to like settle in for a minute managed to get there in the end but it was you know my partner was a bit worried about me and I was just getting in my own head and the worst thing about it was I was like I've literally there's people that are losing their businesses now my mate who lost his business during corona he spent seven years building it and just all of a sudden it was gone like that didn't have the money to pay his mortgage I was like why am I I've got nothing to moan about and I felt guilty about feeling depressed about feeling you know not well basically I felt really fucking guilty about it And what were you feeling?

44:32Is it anxiety? Just anxiety yeah I can't describe it just this darkness this horrible darkness that I've not really experienced before I don't think I'd ever really like had enough time to think about all the things that had gone on and when I was finally faced with it all I think I had this impending doom of like oh my god everything stopped I can't gig I can't write I can't get in the studio I can't do anything like how am I going to keep everything going my career's over like I'm not going to make it out of this everything's going to be finished I just you know I just got in a real bad place like thinking in these horrible circles of negative stuff that was completely unnecessary But it sounds like you were doing the same catastrophizing that your record label had done to you to frighten you to actually do these activities.

45:21Yeah, maybe there was a bit of that, to be fair. And, you know, I'm not putting all of that on my label or my team or anything, you know. At the end of the day, it is up to me, and there is certain pressures. But yeah, there probably was definitely a bit of that, for sure. I'm so interested in this story that sort of brings us up to sitting here having this conversation with you today. Yeah. Because your new album, I Am, you've described it as a culmination of trying to figure out who you are for the last four years. Yeah. So we know everything that happened up to the explosion and the challenges that that brought with it.

45:58So how would you describe the guy sitting in front of us today? I mean, listen to the album, perfect description. Everyone should pre-order it and buy it right now. You've improved your sales technique anyway. I thought you said you were really good at that. I'm definitely just a little bit more aware of the type of person that I am and have found ways of coping with that a lot better than I used to. You know, I used to have a couple of beers when I was worried about something and, you know, not like an alcoholic, but just like that was my coping mechanism. Go out with me mates, get totally, absolutely off my head and then hope that I'd forgotten about it by the time Monday had come round.

46:41I'm much better at thinking things through, being a bit more centred, trying to not overreact to things that are not really in my control. Are you more understanding of yourself? Because I'm a catastrophizer and I have anxiety, right? So the way I deal with it is I remind myself that's who I am. So when something happens and my brain immediately goes to level 10, like alarm bells are ringing what I say is listen the chances of that are pretty slim so is it a factor of feeling well it's definitely just a feeling also you should know yourself by now this is what you do and that is really valuable for me I wonder what you think about which is valuable for you in that sort of situation it's the same kind of thing like I know that when I initially hear some challenging or difficult news about something career or family or friend related my initial thing is to just go straight to the moon with it and panic and I've learned to kind of sleep on things a lot more I mean that is really a great saying like when you sleep on things it really changes your perspective completely and just also be happy to be sad some days I know that sounds strange but there are days you're gonna feel crap and that's totally fine it's totally normal to feel rubbish sometimes as long as you get out of that and you will tomorrow's always a new day and I try to I've, you know, really take that in my stride a lot more often the last couple of years.

48:11Can you give us an example? Yeah, I mean, my album has been pushed back so many times, you know, after being done, it's been put in the bin. I've been the whole album's worth of music before I got to this album. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A whole album has gone in the bin, you know. It's been hundreds of songs to get to this point. To the point where... Just because you keep giving them to the label and they're like, I'm not sure about this, I'm not sure about that. You know, they don't really know either. They know a bit. And they've spotted some great stuff before, but everyone in the music industry is just kind of guessing a little bit.

48:51So that has been really the hardest thing, I think, to just come to terms with getting knocked back again and again and continuing to fight. See, I didn't, and I must be naive, I didn't realise this was part of the process. Oh, yeah. I thought... It's sitting on hundreds of songs, definitely. I thought you were the artist, therefore this is my album. No, I could be like, this is what we're putting out, but if they're not on board with something, then we're not working together as a team to get the best result. And if we're all on board and we're all on side, we're going to get the best result and everyone's going to chase it because they believe in it.

49:30I can't force them to believe in a song they don't like. in the same way that they can't force me to put out a song or sing on a song that they're like, we should do this feature or we should do this. I don't believe in something and I can't put my heart in it. People can smell that stuff, you know. They know when you've done something that you're not in it. So it goes both ways. But if I take back to what you said earlier, you said that you're almost the worst judge of your own music because you do something and go, that's a hit. So who do you go to that you trust to go, Tom? scrap it that's no good or you've got something really good there that's really difficult because your mates and your family will find merit in because they're all good songs they're not bad but it's what's the great getting to great is really difficult I think and I've got a theory that one in ten is going to be great and the other nine are going to be pretty average they're never bad it's not like they're bad songs but you know you kind of know when a banger comes through a bit because there's this unanimous excitement from all the people in your life who are like wow this is really cool and a bit different and like so I try and run on if everyone's feeling it you must be onto something and with this album everyone was feeling all of it and the the album that I put in the bin some mates were like oh this is kind of cool but then and you know the label were a bit like oh yeah there's a bit of merit in this but unanimously everyone didn't feel like they're on the same page with it and I don't make my decisions based on my label my family it's just like I've been doing this long enough now to know that like there is merit and if everyone's excited about something you're usually on to something so can you give us what the experience was like when someone who has openly admitted they suffer with anxiety and they have imposter syndrome and they can catastrophize what's that moment like when a label says not not that impressed Tom yeah crap awful the worst again it's just like real test of character that stuff and how do they tell you what they think I mean like not in a bad way it's just like do you sit around with them they're just like it's alright you know they don't say this is crap you're a terrible artist we're gonna drop here and your career's over it's just like I'll try again so who decides the album is in the bin well it was kind of once I started writing this album I was like okay we're on to something here I got in with a group of producers called the McDonough brothers and their friend Castle their other friend Ryan Daly and I hadn't realised but I'd been in a bit of a kind of writing lull for a while because when I got in with them I was so excited and the productions that they were doing were so beyond anything else I was creating on my own or with any producers I was kind of working with before then Again, nothing bad.

52:29Everyone's great. But what these boys I was doing, I was like, this is something I've not done before. This is so exciting. This feels brand new to me. I've not heard this version of me before, and I like what I'm hearing. Do you know what I mean? And they really brought that out in me and really pushed what I thought was possible with my vocal. I managed to get things, I don't know how I'm going to do it live, but managed to get things recorded for that record that I didn't even think I was able to do vocally. And hours of vocal takes with them where I was thinking, oh my God, they must think I'm the worst singer ever.

53:06But it was just them squeezing every last bit of talent out of my vocal, which was a really interesting new experience that I hadn't really done before. Was it new? Because I'm hearing echoes of you coming down to London at 19 and going into university and having the same experience of being around it. You know, you're a creature of habit, as you said yourself. You've come to London and you're surrounded by people that are actually a step above where you thought you were. And now you've decided that you're in your comfort zone and for this new album you've gone to people that are a step above where you were.

53:41And I'm interested in whether that's almost the secret source of what makes you great, that you like your comfort zone, but you're willing to step to the edge of it. and what lessons you can give us about the view from that edge. You're very good at this, aren't you? Wow. Yeah. I'd never drawn those connections, but that sounds completely plausible to me. Yeah. I just love working with things that make me so excited, but also make me really nervous. Like, these boys were so good that I was like, again, I don't feel worthy in the room, but I know I'm going to learn so much working with these. and the way that they worked was also very unconventional like three people working on different computers on different things and then flying it all over airdrop and combining it together and being like okay maybe we'll use this bit and oh no we'll leave that out maybe try this flying it over again and and then all of them could sing all of them could play they would come in with these fire productions that sounded like near finished things to me and be like what do you think of this and I'd be like obviously this is the best thing ever like can I have this this is sick I'm so excited to write a song over the top of this so their excitement and their passion really like was infectious and I really like once I got in with them that album was written in six months and it was done and how proud are you of this album so proud because it's been such a long a long not to make this specific bit of it but the whole the whole journey to get to this point has been a long road and I can guarantee it is the best thing I have made in my career so far.

55:29I love that and you can certainly relate to the phrase difficult second album then. Oh my gosh yes really really I can indeed I get it now I just never thought that would be a thing and I had so many songs as well under my belt I thought hundreds of songs in their bank. They'll all be hits. But I wonder though whether you would never have made something this incredible if you hadn't been on the journey that you've just described to us. No, well, it's like, you know... You almost had to go through that. It's like Adele having to go through some very intense break-ups, isn't it? You know, you won't get such good music without a hardship in a love life.

56:03There's something in that though, isn't there? No, I agree, absolutely. Yeah, and I think that's the... I think that's the thing about the whole thing, isn't it? like if you want to get something really good you often have to struggle to get there you know in any aspect of anything in life i mean i've been watching drive to survive recently i mean bloody other pressure that i think i'm under pressure like the pressure that those 20 guys are under to keep their seat baffles my mind like it absolutely and then that machine is so much bigger than anything i can even imagine like and i've done some fairly all right stuff but that's another level you know so but all that pressure and all that hard work and all that it when you get it right and you turn it into something amazing it's a beautiful thing i think it's also important that we talk about it like this in a forum like this because it would be so easy for you to hide behind the pr and the and the the usual kind of bullshit that comes with the music industry and just make out that you had to go on a retreat for five years to create the greatest album but here's the truth looking for the lost sound in the desert exactly but the truth is that there are thousands hundreds of thousands of men like you that have mental health challenges and they suffer with anxiety you know the mental health foundation has said that 60 percent of uk adults experience anxiety that interferes with their daily lives yeah almost half of uk adults have feelings of anxiety they keep a secret i mean that for me is the painful one half of them keep it a secret yeah i mean it's such a huge killer um of both men and women depression anxiety suicide is is a huge huge problem these days you know i've just teamed up with the charity called calm who are the campaign against living miserably because um last year i lost a friend of mine um to these things somebody who just took a wrong turn and just went the wrong way and it's so it's so sad to see young people become so glum about the world and i get it because like at the moment there is every time you turn on a screen or a phone or something there is eight people telling you how terrible everything is you know and i think it isn't terrible there's so many great things we really should have a focus on news of like people finding the good things in life and talking about them a bit more because I feel like this doom and gloom is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy sometimes that when all you do is tell people how bad things are things start to get really bad so start a new channel boys, that's what I'm saying Well, I hope that this sort of conversation really helps people.

58:49Hopefully And do you feel in a place now that if you started to slip back to where you have been you've got the tools and you would speak yeah I you know I went through um like some counseling uh during the pandemic after all after feeling in a bad place which really helped me and I thought it was really well worthwhile and has given me tools and coping mechanisms to when I feel myself slipping a bit and just helped me get a grasp on things a little bit easier so I would advise anybody who's kind of thinking about doing that, that there's like absolutely no shame in educating yourself on how you can feel better and how you can cope and what will make things a little bit easier if you are struggling.

59:37Yeah. Could you share one of the tools? I got well into Wim Hof at one point, which really, really changed things for me. Like the breathing, I felt like it just took me into this other world. First time I did it, I had this mad out of body experience. I've tried to convince so many people to try it because it's so powerful it knocks me off my feet the first time I did it I felt like I'd left my body and I was looking down at myself while I was on the sofa doing this whim hop reading it was it was like yeah just a bit life-changing so you know I would definitely recommend people give that a go because it does release a good bit of tension and it's a very interesting unique experience part of your story I love is finding great people around you so I'm interested in the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you need to buy into that are important to you kindness is just such an easy yeah free thing like be nice to people i hate getting involved in unnecessary dramas and i and my friends do as well so you know i think that's a big thing for me so yeah kindness staying away from any unintended drama sometimes you know there needs to be a bit of drama but like just you know there's no need to get into it for no reason.

1:00:55What else would I say? Just like being like honourable as well and having your friends back and being there for people is a really big one for me. I feel like I'm so lucky with my mates there. Drop of a hat would be there if you needed something. Would be right over to you else and have been at times where I have needed it. So yeah, very fortunate for them. What advice would you give to a teenage Tom just starting out? just don't be so self-conscious about everything is what I would say you know I've been a big lad my whole life and I really have let that get to me at times and the older you get the more you realise people don't care half as much as you think they do so just like don't let that get you down and try and love who you are a bit more because life's too short what's your biggest strength?

1:01:47what's your greatest weakness? I say my biggest strength is I'm quite good at being able to read situations that are quite emotional quite well, kind of pick up on things that other people don't pick up on sometimes, which has done me really well with my family and my friends, and knowing when somebody might not be having the best time. Not always, but sometimes I've been quite good at that, and I like that. Biggest weakness, just overthinking. Overthinking. Overthinking so much, you know. Lying awake at night and not being able to sleep, thinking about the next three days of my life and how they're going to pan out pointlessly.

1:02:27They'll pan out the way they pan out kind of thing. If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why? My wedding day. Such a great day. Everyone told me it was going to be the best day of my life and I thought, I've done some pretty amazing things so far that I'm so proud of. but I'm not I'm not proud on anything that day it was so perfect to have all your family and your friends on side it was just the perfect perfect day and I loved every minute of it and I would love to just do that day again exactly how it was because it was so great nice and the final question your one golden rule for living a high performance life that you'd like to leave people with it's nice to be nice well done brilliant

1:03:19Damien. Jake. What do you make of that? I really enjoyed it. Hearing somebody at the top of their game being prepared to be so vulnerable and open about their emotions, their struggles, and their successes, I thought was really refreshing. And I love the humility of someone who obviously spends a lot of time worrying about how he comes across, and he has anxiety about being, in his words, he was saying, I'm a bit awkward, I worry about this sort of stuff, I worry about how I look, how I sound, what I do. for someone to be so likeable, so friendly, so open, so approachable, so interesting, and then still to have anxiety linked to their opinion of themselves is a reminder for so many of us that that kind of anxiety is a feeling.

1:04:00It isn't a fact. Like, what an amazing guy he is. And even he struggles. Yeah, and I think his advice at the end about reach out towards people, get feedback from people in your inner circle is really valuable, not just when you're dealing with mental health struggles, professionally as well. Go out and if there's a task that you do in a project that you're trying to complete, go and get a diverse range of opinions of people that care for you, but care enough to push you to go and do better. And I think that he's really found his voice. If you think about how he was overwhelmed in 2019 and he spoke about that when he had his initial success, if he wasn't comfy in his own skin now, he wouldn't be happy to sit and have that kind of conversation.

1:04:44He'd come in and play a song and talk about how great the new album is and do the usual kind of like PR stuff. Whereas that was a really raw and honest interview. And I think you can only talk like that when you are actually in a good place. And I'm so pleased that he seems in a good place. Yeah, you don't need to hit rock bottom before you learn to say no, before you set your boundaries. And you remind yourself of the things that bring you joy and energy and happiness. And I think that's what he's learned the confidence on, to be able to do precisely that. And I think that's the lesson I'll take away and apply.

1:05:17Well, that brings us to the end of today's episode. And you can also watch this whole conversation on the High Performance app and on YouTube as well. All that remains is for me to say thank you so much for continuing to support High Performance. Please spread the messages, the lessons and the learnings you've taken from these conversations. Remain humble, curious and empathetic. And we'll see you again soon.

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