Toto Wolff: The Brutal Truth Behind My Success, Self-Doubt & Leadership

0:02I always stared into an abyss. Tomorrow could be the end of everything. I'm a glass half empty person and I think that keeps you on your toes. My father got very ill with a brain cancer when I was very young, six or seven years old and got operated many, many times until he died when I was 15. Even if you can't see light at the end of the tunnel because things are so bad, the truth is it always ends. That is the very distinctive voice of Mercedes, Formula One team principal and CEO, Toto Wolff. Now, this was an unforgettable pleasure for me, this podcast episode, one of the most honest conversations we've ever recorded, as Toto traced his own decisiveness back to what he calls an effed-up upbringing.

0:49His father got really ill with brain cancer when Toto was just a few years old. He was operated on again and again, and sadly died by the time Toto was 15. and he reckons he had to become an adult somewhere between the ages of 10 and 12 looking after his sister while his mother tried to hold the whole thing together on her own but Toto doesn't reach for sympathy he reaches for a theory about why he might not be sitting in that chair at Merseilles at all without that start in life we also get into something he's talked about far less periods of depression from the age of 18 onwards a night at the Amber Lounge in Monaco at 29, standing on the outside looking in at a room full of people who apparently had it all.

1:29And because this is Toto, we don't stay reflective for too long. The exact language he uses with his mechanics when something goes wrong and a candid reassessment of his own parts in Mercedes' most bruising years are all things we dive into. But one quick thing before we start, this is a special conversation, but it does include a frank discussion of depression and of getting professional help. So please listen with care. This is raw. It's funny in places. It's probably the most complex picture I've ever heard of what goes on inside the mind of Toto Wolff, a man famous for the car exterior on the pit wall, but a man that you're about to get to know like never before, as we welcome Toto to High Performance.

2:16Well, Toto, welcome back to High Performance. Thank you for having me again. So I think one of the interesting things about your role is that people will always look to you to have the answer, right? How do you make big decisions like Kimi Antonelli replacing Lewis Hamilton? What's the process that you go through so you are confident in your decision-making process? Because of my more difficult upbringing, I don't strive to take decisions. It's actually something that comes quite natural to me. There is an instinctive response, an internal response that I have with myself, and that was literally, that's the opportunity for Kimi.

2:52And on the other side, there was another F2 season to go and lots of testing for Kimi. So you have to, in a way, stand back and say, hold on a minute, that's your instinctive reaction. So that's probably going to happen, but there could be breaking points where you should be rationally and logically acting and then obviously picking the brains of all the good people that I work with here in Mercedes and also talking to all. and Marcus at Mercedes in Stuttgart, and picking their brains is important before coming to a final conclusion. And that decision that was made was with Ola and was also in the room with Gwen who runs our junior program, James Ellison, Bradley, Lord, and just to confirm my first initial instinct.

3:38Are you happy to talk about those things in the past? Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it because I think when you are perceived as someone that is successful in that sense, it's important to give hope to people that it doesn't always need to be easy. Actually, adversity, as tough as it is in these moments, especially for a child, can make you a strong individual. So in the book, the phrase that you use is a fucked up upbringing. Tell us about that. Well, it's a fucked up upbringing, but to nobody's fault. It was just the circumstances. My father got very ill with a brain cancer when I was very young, six or seven years old, and got operated many, many times until he died when I was 15.

4:26So my father wasn't really present, couldn't be present. And, you know, as a young boy, you fall in love with your father. He's your hero. And then you need to have those moments where you hate your father, where you're actually able to revolt in a way. And I had none of that. Only anger. and at the same time my mother was a doctor and she tried to survive herself. And that's why my sister and I were pretty much on our own. I needed to look after her. But I'm at total peace with that now. And I also said to my mother, you have no fault in that. It was just everybody had to look after themselves.

5:07What are your memories then of your dad? My memories of my dad are that he was a very charismatic, intelligent father. He jumped the class because he was so good academically. And he was well-liked. And that's pretty much it as a father. I was very close to him when we were young. but then obviously when you go through such a dramatic illness where slowly but surely your personality changes the many last years the relationship was pretty bad but not to his fault and not to mine I think it was just that as a young man you then kind of have to distance yourself to not be emotionally dragged into more pain and how did you do that?

6:01well it was simply trying to be an adult and run my life myself and for my sister. And what age would you have been at that point when you realized you kind of need to take control? Probably between 10 and 12, somewhere around that. So we often look at traumatic events like that and people will instantly talk about the trauma and the sadness and the upset. We rarely talk about what that has given you on the good side. so what did that give the man sitting in front of me today that has made him into the leader that we all know i think um overcoming um drama trauma humiliation kind of creates maybe that more motivation to prove that uh you you are worth it overcompensates in order to maybe a feeling of feeling inadequate or having been a victim and I see that with many successful people that there was some kind of event or situations that scarred them and caused pain now having said that there is also very many successful people that had very happy upbringings my wife had a wonderful parents and a wonderful family and she's still in her own way doing very well but maybe more than the terminology of successful or doing very well I think it's about being a happy adult and having a great let's say we're not happy every day but enjoying what you do what you work and being able to rely on your friends and family so I think the two can go hand in hand but there's many examples that I have witnessed where people went through these negative events and that shaped them and made them who they were, who they are.

8:01Listen, we've spoken to so many people on this show where the feeling we have at the end is that trauma leads to triumph. You know, we talk often about post-traumatic stress, but there is also a lot of research into the world of post-traumatic growth and that actually for someone that's been through what you went through as a young man, it lights a fire in you that people who haven't been through that trauma almost can't get there, right? I'm sort of sitting here wondering if your dad hadn't passed away when you were young, if you hadn't had to go through that trauma, I kind of wonder whether you'd be here now.

8:34Yeah, maybe not. Because for me, the worst of all situations was that I was a poor kid in an environment where there was wealth. I was going to a private school, which we couldn't afford. So there was an instance where my sister and I were called out of class to the headmaster in the early afternoon. And he told us, you've got to leave the school. The fees are not paid. So I had to go back into class to the delight of my friends that were really happy for me and saying, you're so lucky you can leave the school. but I took my school back, met my sister who was 10 basically in the lobby and had to take the tram home 45 minutes and explain to her why we were going home and not finishing the day.

9:20And so this financial hardship plus the family situation created a drive in me to be self-responsible, become an adult really quickly, look after my family financially and emotionally different to what I had. So definitely I wouldn't be here if that wouldn't have happened, if I wouldn't have felt that degree of inadequacy in front of my friends and environment. Do you still have that feeling? No, I think I'm getting over it slowly but surely. I didn't kind of trust the success that I had in my 20s, 30s, 40s. How do you mean? I always stared into an abyss. Tomorrow could be the end of everything.

10:07Tomorrow we start losing. Tomorrow I could be losing my money. My marriage could be over. Somebody could fall ill. And that's why I have to keep going. I have to keep going. I have to keep going. And that's gotten a little bit better now after I've become 50. Because now one thing is clear. I'm already over half of my time. I hope so in any case. And so I've gone through the worst, hopefully.

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12:30And the ultimate way to get closer to the action is with an Olympic hospitality package. Ticket-inclusive packages offer a range of prime seating and lounge access options, venue-dependent priority entry, food and beverage selections from LA's diverse dining scene, and elevated service and continuous support, making your day at the Olympic Games one to remember for a lifetime. Get ahead of the curve with an LA28 hospitality package. Discover more at hospitality.la28.org forward slash high performance. And how much has therapy helped with this ability to not catastrophize like you used to? Speaking to someone professional, my main target wasn't to not catastrophize because I think that is important for me as a personality.

13:18Always seeing the worst case scenario. I'm a glass half empty person and I think that keeps you on your toes. I've seen many people fail that believe they're the real deal and nothing could possibly harm them and they were walking over water. And that's why I don't want to stop in a way thinking about tomorrow could be really bad. Doesn't mean I'm a miserable person all along, but it keeps my skepticism intact. Talking to someone was more about overcoming past trauma, overcoming emotions that I couldn't really analyze. I've suffered, like Luis said, I've suffered from periods of depression from the age of 18 onwards.

14:02Couldn't kind of define what it was. Why was I feeling so dark? And when that got really strong, that I couldn't handle it myself anymore, I started to speak with a psychiatrist and psychologist later on and that really helped me to analyze why I was feeling that way and how the tools that were given to me how to how to utilize these moments of reflection and introspection but not dragging on with the suffering a lot. And huge credit to you for talking like this because I think people who are in the position that you're in often don't want to show what the world sometimes perceives as a weakness i believe talking like this is an incredible strength right but it also provides strength for other people i fear that sometimes we dance around the truth with these things a little bit people say i didn't feel very good well that leaves other people wondering am i do i have depression do i have mental health problems you know how do these things actually feel so that for me this is a huge topic yeah because so often i had the feeling that i was alone with that and that would be a hindrance for me ever being successful.

15:11As a young kid, I couldn't comprehend why I was feeling bad at times. And that kind of passes. But when you grow older, those moments become sadder and become, last for longer time. And I distinctively remember that I was invited to a Formula One afterparty in the early 2000s. I must have been 29, 30 years old and I was doing well with my venture capital company, but I was at that time suffering. My marriage wasn't going very good and I felt terrible for a prolonged time. Would you mind just telling us when you say I felt terrible, what was the feeling? The feeling is that you can't sleep properly.

15:58You're waking up with a sense of darkness that of, it's very difficult to describe that actually in a way of there is no hope for your future. And so the event was I was invited to that after party, Amber Lounge on a Sunday night in Monaco after the Grand Prix. And obviously I didn't know anybody in Formula One. I was with a friend and I saw all of these people partying. I remember there was Martin Whitmarsh and I think Jensen was there. Drivers, you know, lots of very successful people that were in the media spotlight that apparently had it all. And I stood there and said, I can never achieve that kind of success with what I have.

16:44It will always be my limitation. And I felt if I would have listened to somebody out of that circus who I perceived as having it all, to saying I'm suffering too and I had those periods, it would have given me great hope. Yeah. And now 20 years later, I've overcome, I've passed their successes. Things have gone really well from a sporting side. And I think there may be someone that's looking at me and saying, he hasn't got the limitation that I have. And I realized it's a superpower to have that sensitivity that can drag you very low because you're vulnerable, but it also gives you that superpower of reading a room easy, of understanding somebody else's personality and how that affects your interaction, feeling vibes in a much better way and running an organization fundamentally because you care about the individual.

17:38So I wouldn't want to miss any of those moments. Correction. I would wish to have some of the superpower that I have without these moments, but that doesn't go. You can't be all there if you haven't got that. But it was, every time I came out, I realized how important it was. Because you just think more about yourself. Why is it that I'm feeling like this? What is it that I can do to improve my relationships? What is it I need to achieve to make me happy? Is it what I'm doing right now? Or does it need some kind of change or recalibration? You don't do that if you're down the middle every day.

18:16It's just a comfort zone. there will also be people that now watch this going, well, he seems fine now and I'm still in this place so I'll never achieve what Toto achieves. Very good point. Because there have been people that are in the media that have come out and have said, I suffered from depression and from anxiety. I think it was important that Simone Biles said that. I remember in our environment, Lando spoke about it. Louis most recently. George said he was speaking to someone. But then if you're right in the middle of such episode, you see those individuals or you listen to us at the moment and say, well, he seems happy now.

18:57The truth is it always ends. Even if you can't see light at the end of the tunnel because things are so bad, it always ends. I didn't believe it would end at this sometimes. I had the support of my friends and family. Susie's been tremendous. He kept the system going when I was not capable of doing it. It always ends. You know, this is a phase of your life that can be days, weeks, months, maybe even more than a year. But if you're open-minded about looking after yourself and speaking to somebody else, seeking professional help, not go to the pub and have five beers with a mate who hasn't got an understanding of what's happening.

19:39If you speak to someone, this is going to pass. but it doesn't mean that you're not vulnerable for this to happen again I think I am if I would have a family or life situation that would be really difficult or bad I am I could be falling into this again now when it comes to Formula 1 like you said doesn't move the dial nothing that happens in Formula 1 or in my professional life would ever trigger such a period because it's just on the scale of what I had as a child or as a teenager, that's nothing. When did you last have a difficult episode? COVID, 2020. Right. When the music stops and you're someone that actually likes to move, that was not good.

20:31Jumping out of the hamster wheel because you want to, you decide, is a conscious decision. The hamster wheel suddenly stopping from 100 to zero. That was very difficult for me in combination of a period where I wasn't sure whether I wanted to continue to be a team principal in Formula One. I've been a venture capitalist and private equity investor for 20 plus years in my life. I really enjoyed doing that. Looking at various businesses, speaking to managers or entrepreneurs and seeing what they could achieve and being part of that. And now I was a one-trick pony in Formula One. and it took me eight or nine months to come to the conclusion that I wanted to do this and because I found my niche between the racing and the business side what I do covers all of that but it took a long long time what was the thing or a moment when a therapist said something to you that almost brought a moment of enlightenment so that was a moment that was my old therapist Kenny who said when I gave the example of somebody else of that person isn't feeling, hasn't got the limitations that I have because it wouldn't be so successful.

21:48He said, how do you know? Are you in his brain? Would anybody think that of you? And it was like, oh yeah, outside shine doesn't mean inside happiness. Yeah. So even the events of the end of the season in 2021 when people around the world were livid with what was happening the experiences that you've been through meant you felt what angry not anything like depressed or sad just angry angry of that an individual was able to take an ace championship away from the best driver in the world by a decision. Now, you have to put that into context. You know, there's dictators around the world, mad politicians that cause so much pain and so much harm that is in no way comparable to Louis losing the AIDS title or us as a team.

22:53But it was just the anger of that moment, the anger on a person. and not emotionally draining. And even Lewis, he learned to manage his emotions very strongly. Even Lewis, after a few days, was in an okay space. Now, that thing still goes with us and is with us because of the very unfairness that happened on that particular day. But it is not like in our mind all the time it makes us suffer. Obviously, we've just spoken about the fact that your own experiences give you an emotional intelligence and empathy and understanding for others. Did you not have that for Michael Massey? Did you not put yourself in his position and think, okay, that's a hard place to be.

23:40I might have done the same. I really tried to speak to Michael and guide him all along the year and speak to him and say, listen, I've been in this sport for a long time. Listen to the drivers. don't always be stubborn in your decision making don't be arrogant I tried that for the good of the sport and obviously also for us as a team not to be vulnerable to situations that could be totally detrimental so in that sense this is just you know what happened is inexcusable now you could say the empathy should make me realize how he feels I realize how he feels and I know that's not good and bad but he could have thought about it all year long when people, not only me, tried to support in the right way.

24:34So sometimes you have to just realize that someone is just doing his own thing or taking his own decisions. So for me, I don't care about it anymore. Now you and I speak about it. We waste three minutes of our time, but he has no relevance. How often do you think about it? For sure every week. There's a moment every week where I think about it. But I mainly think about it because I think Lewis should have deserved to be the greatest of all times with eight world championship titles. And you can argue all along about that year. I think Max and Lewis were deserving champions. There were instances during the year where Max lost some points that he shouldn't have lost.

25:16You look at the crash in Monza both of them had. So both deserving champions. But on that particular afternoon in Abu Dhabi, it was unfair. Yeah. You obviously have the car in your reception. I wondered when I came in, I saw that and immediately knew this is the car that raced. It's the very car, isn't it, from the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix. You don't feel tempted to get that car out of reception and put something else in there? It's a special car because it's also a car that turned the situation around after Brazil, where we thought the championship is gone. It was a very good car after the summer.

25:52And it's a car that reminds all of us that things could go wrong very quickly, but things could be right also very quickly. It's basically how life goes. And that car is a stark reminder of all the joy and all the pain a situation can bring with it. I'd like to talk about the impact on Lewis because in the book, Bono, his race engineer says, as time passed, the doubt crept in for Lewis as much as me. In our minds, we started to ask if we were still capable. How aware were you that Lewis was struggling after that race in 2021? Lewis and I speak a lot, we text a lot all along. And I knew that he was in an okay place because he immediately left, spent some time in the Caribbean after that race.

26:45and was doing sports and kite surfing. So you said you knew a few days later. What happened a few days after that when you thought actually Lewis is okay here? Well, he went to some friends' place in the Caribbean and they told me he's okay. And he took his distance. So I was also proud because he's come a long way to cope with difficult moments that he had in the past and that we had. You know, there were times where I was helping him to overcome such situations in the same way the other way around. It's also what made our relationship so strong that we've seen each other in the worst moments.

27:32So I knew he was better. And when it comes to doubting, I think we have a similar mindset. You're staring in the abyss. Every day you hang on for dear life. you give it all you have, you fight for becoming better, for meeting your own expectations, trying to overcome literally everything. And when you don't win for such a long time, you start to doubt. And what I did all along is, you know, trying to take the, reducing the doubt by saying, you're the greatest driver in this world that has ever seen. And why should anything be different? The car is not good enough. The car is unpredictable. But I don't see you in any different way than five years ago.

28:19And how often would you talk to Lewis about the doubts and the fears and the time it's been since that last win? Regularly. I wouldn't want to say it here in public, but regularly we have those exchanges. And very open. He's a driver or someone that would say to me, I don't think that that was good. also in public he's come out and criticized his own driving at times and said it was unacceptable or it wasn't good enough. That's also showing his strengths to be able to speak about non-performance to speak about depression or about mental health. You know if you're strong enough to come out saying I don't feel good at times or I feel really bad at times and or I'm not able to perform that needs strength and that shows how strong he is as a driver and as a person.

29:12So when you see Lewis coming out and saying, look, I'm not delivering what I know I can, you're almost happy that he's able to get himself to that point and publicly admit that sort of thing. It takes pressure off the team. You know, he has some devoted fans that will always seek the default of the team and he takes pressure off the team. But he's also very honest and transparent about when somebody gets it wrong, either him or... the team's performance or anybody else. And I think that means being authentic and credible. With authentic and credible in mind, there's a lovely line you've used where you've said, you want to create a space here where nobody feels humiliated or inadequate.

29:56That's in a team that is every single week being tested to its limits. So I'd love to know from you, for the many people listening to this who lead businesses, work in businesses, or even people in their own marriages with their children and their families, How do we create a space where people aren't humiliated, they aren't inadequate, but we're also still asking them for the very best they can give us? And from the team's, let's say, professional side, what we say is we don't blame the person, we blame the problem. If somebody's making a mistake in whatever function, fundamentally it's the leader's fault because haven't I invested enough time in developing a person, giving him the right tools, the right education, the right support.

30:38So a good example is when you have a slow pit stop and a mechanic fails to tighten the wheel nut in time. That's not the mechanic's fault at all because it is either the equipment that doesn't work adequately, which was the case for us for many years, or the pit stop training wasn't like it should have been. It's a problem of the process, not the person. And that's why we need to protect the people because all the world is looking at Formula One, all the fans are looking at Formula One, and the initial reaction of any individual is to find somebody who is at fault, the culprit. It's your fault.

31:17Because that is almost like a pressure release valve. But that's too easy as a reaction. Much better is to say, what is it that I've done wrong in that situation? What could I have done to prevent such thing? And if you're able to look at yourself first and introspect before blaming someone, that's a good step. The other thing is that I call it tough love. As long as you share objectives with someone and you talk about these objectives and you come to the point of saying, that's how I see what we would like to achieve, you can have opposite perceptions and standpoints and perspectives. So I kind of encourage even difficult discussions where someone say, I believe it is A and you say it's B because what I can tell you for sure, that person is not 100 % right or 100 % wrong.

32:09It can be very nuanced. It can be a 60-40 decision. So I would always encourage to approach such a situation with the feeling of curiosity rather than combat because our brain plays little games with us. The emotional part will tell you, this is, I don't like what I hear. I'm going to not listen anymore to the other person's argument. You're just building your own sentence already what you're going to respond. And that is combat, not curiosity. So making sure that you can have a tough conversation, be it in a professional environment or at home, acknowledging that somebody else who is hopefully not an idiot has a different perspective and to say, why is that person seeing the world like this?

32:56Why is that person thinking that I'm wrong? You come to a conclusion that maybe there's a certain truth to it. And that's what I'm trying to have in my private life and in my professional life. And how different are you as a leader from the one that I spoke to? Because at that time, you were the man that just built a car, won the races, won the title, right? Year after year after year. So I'm very interested in how you've changed your leadership style, what you've learned about leadership. but most importantly what you've learned about yourself a lot and i think developing every day and becoming better is something that i really like as a as a mindset in everything whatever you do whether it's at your job in the relationships uh in sports just trying to be better than how do you do that thinking about it every day what is it that i can improve in in for me, for my life, for my family, for my colleagues?

33:57What is it that I can contribute? Where did I spot shortcomings in myself or gaps every single day? You know, when I'm sometimes in trivial situations, I'm not looking after myself enough. I'm not eating well when I should. I'm going to the gym and I'm not concentrated enough. Or I'm in a meeting and my mind is wandering somewhere else. like literally every, dissect the day into everything and try to improve that. So, and I enjoy doing that. So it's not that I'm just knocking myself down all the time. But I think I learned so much during this time because I went through like a rollercoaster of thoughts, why that was happening.

34:39And coming to the conclusion that the team with all its intelligence, know-how, infrastructure, wasn't able to understand why the car was not going fast. That was quite a new realization of mine because I thought if you put a few parameters in place, some pillars, you wouldn't fail. But you probably thought you knew the secret, right? Because it was working every season. Yeah, I think when you, sometimes it's good to simplify. To be successful in Formula One, you need a set of the best drivers. You can't compromise on that. You need to have an engine supplier or partner that has all the budgets and the people to play the top of his game.

35:20You need the infrastructure and the equipment in your Formula One team. That means you need to have the financial resources to do this. You need to have the culture and leadership in the team. You need to have the competence and management capability of the top layer of management and the creativity and the innovation of the people that are coming up. And all of that needs to be budgeted for and you need to have the fighting funds for that. And as long as you have all that, you could have blips of non-performance, but eventually things were going to be all right. We had all of that. And still, we weren't successful.

35:56We were beaten by someone else. We were beaten by a team that, a formidable team, or formidable teams. And just come to the realization that sometimes things need to change. Organizations that perform maybe don't do anymore. maybe not all of it, maybe a little bit. What is it that I came short of? Most importantly, as a thought, am I still the same leader that I was before? Did I go from great to good? Good is not good enough in Formula One. Do I have the same drive and motivation and anger that I had at the beginning of my career? And finding answers to all of this. And I did. I did and had to change as a personality because for me, pressure was always a useful tool to operate on myself and then also on everyone around me, whilst being empathetic for the person.

36:55Pressure didn't yield any results. On the contrary, I upset people that were really doing the outmost and gave it their best for us to be successful. And I had to change in that perspective. Would you give us an example of a time when you did that? Unintentionally, you upset people. We had a good race in Austin in terms of performance. We finished second, catching up to Max. We were disqualified for a right height infringement. And I'm still okay with such situation because we had a quick car. So that was good. And then we went to Brazil, expecting that it would go like the year before, where that was the only race we were really good at and we miserably failed.

37:31And I was so angry about ourselves and myself. You know, this is my team. It's not that I'm accusing anybody else that I expressed that anger by saying, this car doesn't deserve to win a race. And by saying that, I disrespected all the work from people that were, they were giving every day in trying to make that car faster. And I upset someone and that was a big shake for me. How did you deal with it? I acknowledged, comprehended and promised to do better in the future. So what have you changed then? because just doing the same thing again and again and expecting the results to change is never going to be the answer.

38:16The Einstein. Correct. And I know a lot of people watch this show because they want to hear some real specific, tangible examples of we did this, we did this, we did this. So would you mind taking us through a few of the things that you have changed to try and find the success that you've had in the past? I believe that where I come from, you know, with my past, I have to be in control of situations And I believe being a micromanager is not something that you need to be ashamed for. For me, micromanagement doesn't necessarily mean doing everything but knowing about most of the stuff. But accepting that people give it all they have and they are intelligent and they know, but in that specific situation they fail.

39:01And giving them room to sort the situation out, that's something that I learned. because in the past I would continue to pressure and pressure and pressure. That is one example. The other one was also keeping my own emotions under control. I'm very passionate about the sport. And what makes me so angry if I don't meet my own expectations? I don't care what anybody else says, but I feel what I would like to achieve on that particular day or that weekend or throughout the campaign. and falling short is that anger that comes out. Combined with the fact that I believe somebody else is doing us wrong, us in terms of the team, my tribe, that can come to situations that just create too much emotion.

39:49And I try to limit that. You know, in the past I would smash my headphones when I felt that we lost the championship. I don't do this anymore. And I'm capable that after bad qualifying and also after bad race to first get myself in an emotional better state before lashing out. So what do you say to yourself in those moments after a bad moment on track before you address the team? We see you sometimes sitting there in the garage. Everyone else has gone off to get their work done and you're just sitting. What questions are you asking yourself? So there is this anger on myself. why that has gone wrong, but giving myself time to come down.

40:35Take a deep breath that allows you to almost take a step back from the immediate moment and then immediately think of what is it that we could have done differently? What is it that we should be changing going forward? What is it that I need to contribute and give it to the situation? So immediately my thinking about the future takes over from the current bad situation. I've been doing that for a long time. I just stay in the garage, in good or in bad. I don't go out. I don't go on the podium or anything like this. I've been in Monza because it was just out of my garage and my son wanted to see the podium.

41:16But otherwise, I need to be for myself in glory and in loss. But I love the line in the book about you need to be an ultimate force to be successful. So how do you balance up this idea of emotional empathy, controlling what you can, not allowing the team to see actually how frustrated you're feeling, but to still be an ultimate force? What does that look like for you, being an ultimate force? I think it's just an internal feeling. Nothing is going to stop me. And it could be difficult at times, but there is nothing. and there's no team that won every single championship forever there is it's a sport it's a it's a sports team you lose and you win and you hopefully learn from it but we will prevail we will overcome what role has has self-doubt played for you in the last three years like have you thought again about maybe maybe leaving i think you need to question yourself every day?

42:20Am I still great at what I do? Is there somebody else that could be doing a better job? Which for me would be easy to admit because it's my company. I'm a co-owner of this. So if I find a better team principle, I would be the first one to say, you take over and you do this. Doubting, being insecure about that situation is important because you self-reflect. You try to improve. If you don't doubt yourself, If I would blame it on an engineer or blame it on a steward or God knows a race director, that is the easy way out of things. First, you blame yourself. First, you check your own position. Is it right what I'm thinking?

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46:37How often does self-doubt creep into each day? Every day. Every day. Every day there's a moment where I'm thinking, am I really performing to my own expectations here? Should I have, I mean, it starts from the morning. Have I used the morning positively? Have I read, you know, I'm reading the news in the morning for a long time. Did I read the right thing to give me, you know, put me in a good state of mind in order to perform in the morning? or did I read some trash? Like literally, again, dissecting everything I do. Is it the right thing that I'm doing? I think this is fascinating because I think that sometimes people wonder whether they can stumble into high performance, whether it can just happen.

47:22But you're talking about ultimate force. You're almost forcing high performance into your life with constant questions, constant challenge, constant improvement, constant self-doubt. Is it not exhausting? I love it. I'm more prone to a bore out than a burned out. My worst experiences in my life when I was an adult and I suffered is when I wasn't motivated, when I didn't enjoy what I was doing, when things in the wake didn't excite me. I'm really not good at holidays over more than a week, 10 days. I need to keep myself busy. But I can do that with sports, for example. it's not exciting it's not exhausting it's exciting my wife is the same by the way so I know your wife and I'm I have no doubt it's a that's a high performing couple right there yeah but we are not you know these kind of angry

48:24over motivated annoying people that need to you know be the best at all times and we can laugh about ourselves. We enjoy, we can laugh about each other not being good at something. I decided now finally that I'm not going to do ball sports anymore in my life because again, she humiliated me in pedal. And so I was never good at football, pedal, basketball, volleyball, golf or anything. So I'm not doing that anymore. And she takes the mickey out of me in these situations. So Susie's the winner. Susie is the winner in ball sports. that isn't that god thought you're not being good at both spots and i had the ultimate confirmation can i talk to you about this idea of being a lifelong learner of the ability to adapt how important do you think it is to to constantly adapt and this idea that the best thinking is almost rethinking changing the way that you see the world all the time we adults we sometimes think you know we are like we are these are the strengths and weaknesses that we have i'm good at that and bad at this and we don't believe in self-development we don't believe in the ability to change we can fundamentally change as an adult by experiences or by trying and trying again giving it everything if you really if you're really keen in in developing in a certain area you always can And I don't think that many others think that way.

49:57They think they are the finished product, good or bad. So now that we're with, and I'm sorry to keep talking about it, but it was a seismic moment in your career and the life of this team, 2021. We had Adrian Newey on the podcast recently. And I want to play you a quick clip. And I would like to know how you now reflect on the Red Bull-Mercelli's relationship from that time. So this is Adrian on high performance. Yeah, I haven't heard that. The Silverstone accident between Lewis and Max. Which I must admit, at the time, I was absolutely incandescent with Lewis because I felt it was a deliberate professional foul.

50:35I think now with the benefit of hindsight and time, then I think there'd been banging wheels all the way around the lap up to that corner. Lewis went for an opportunity which he thought was there, misjudged it, and what happened happened. and we were lucky that Max didn't get badly hurt in that accident. So I understand sort of how it happened now, perhaps better, and I was probably a bit harsh, or I was too harsh on Lewis at the time. So the benefit of hindsight and time, Adrian has changed the kind of view he had of that season. I wonder what you make of that and how you feel. I mean, Adrian reflects very well, and I think his intellect is something that shines.

51:26You always have to be able to recalibrate yourself. I read something that I really liked a while ago. Play hard, forgive quickly, and apologize when you're wrong. And that's the way I tried to live. and Silverstone, the way he described it is in a way how today you can see things. These guys have been banging wheels, not only that first lap, but they've been banging wheels all along. And I think that was a moment where the two decided of not yielding that corner. And it ended up in a situation that it ended up. Thankfully, he wasn't hurt. I said before I could have reacted in a better way because I heard from one of the Red Bull engineers that he was fine in that respect.

52:19You know, that was, you know, tick the box. Max is fine. And we went on to win the race and he didn't score. So that was important to bounce back in the championship. And I felt, you know, the driving at times was not clean. And in retrospect, I should have just picked up the phone and called Yoss and said, is he fine? Now, Yoss clearly would have told me what he was thinking about that situation, but that's fine. But I should have as a father called the father of the driver and say, just ask. And I didn't. Now we cleared the air on that one and there were many more instances in that particular year that were not to the standards that we all expect from each other.

53:02So that's fine. I suppose what I think is that was a season that was so intense. I mean, even watching on the sofa with my nine-year-old son, Sebastian, named after Sebastian Vettel actually, who is loving Formula One, right? We were feeling the emotion of that season and you were right in the heart of it. I wonder how you now reflect on it all these years later with the benefit of hindsight, the intensity of your relationship with Christian, the intensity of the relationship with Max. How do you see that now? This year will be remembered as one of the, let's say, toughest years in Formula One between two drivers, two teams, team principals.

53:39And it ended up in a situation that was overall not great for Formula One. And how do I reflect about it? I try to learn and make sense, see what we could have done better all along and try to do that. So here's an interesting question. The thing you're most proud of from that season when you thought, yes, and the thing that you're least proud of? The most proud was a moment after the FAA decided to disqualify Louis for the sprint race in Brazil for an infringement on the rear wing, which was a lapsus. It wasn't, there wasn't anything to it, but they decided to do that. And we all came back into the garage on that evening.

54:30I remember a friend of mine and the catering girls brought us sandwiches and music was playing and it was many of the mechanics, engineers, the marketing, catering people, Louis, my friend Gernot and I, and we were there and suddenly I felt so much energy in this team. And it was clear we had to win every single race until the end of the year to win this championship. And that very moment, that's where the lightning striked of power. That is something to have just been part of this is a proud moment. The worst, so many bad moments, The one on Silverstone is an example. That's probably the worst because I didn't empathize enough with her father.

55:16This podcast is called High Performance. When I think of Lewis's driving towards the end of that 2021 season, I don't think I've ever seen a driver perform to a higher level than Lewis was delivering at that time. There's probably no one else on the planet apart from Lewis that's closer to his world than you. would you take us into Lewis's world at that time and really explain to us why you think he was at such a high level and how he got there Lewis utilizes or uses adversity and channels it into performance and that was the moment where he thought everybody's against me no one wants me to win this championship and he took it that was different to the previous years he took it in a way of embracing it not with anger but saying rock and roll now we go and as you say the driving was just on a different planet Max is exceptional and has proven that in the years to come but in this last 5 or 6 races Lewis was just dominant as he was also in the last race in Abu Dhabi.

56:32Controlled it all along. What do you think makes him the seven-time, eight-time, you could argue, world champion? What's the magic he has? You know, whatever I say now, it wouldn't give it justice to how good he is in many things. I'd like to use your word magic. Yeah. And that combines all of the skills of the genes, the talent, the nature, nurturing from his father in the early years, hard work ethic, intelligence, social intelligence, no fear attitude, constant development of himself. Probably a minute more. I have words for a minute more if I were to think about it. Because he's a seven-time world champion and won God knows how many races.

57:26So in that respect, there hasn't been anybody else like this. I think the other thing that I'd like to mention about Lewis as well is I remember when I first stepped into the paddock in 2009 and he'd had that great 2008 season. And it was the first time I'd met him at a race weekend. And I said, Tom, are you looking forward to fighting for another title? And his answer straight away, he went, if I've still got it. And I thought, wow. And I don't think people realise that self-doubt sits quite high to the surface for Lewis. and actually, again, is a really valuable tool in his locker, right? Absolutely.

58:02What we discussed before, if you doubt, you question, you introspect, you try to improve, keeps you on your toes. That's what makes you better. If you think you're the real deal, then that's why you fail. I've seen it over and over again with people. What's the biggest thing you've learned from him?

58:24Constant self-development. not only in professional function, for him it's the driving, for me it's maybe running the team, but also how he embraced this personal change. There was a moment when we had a really difficult time in 2016 after Nico won the race and the championship and we didn't talk to each other for a few weeks and then he came to my home because I said, we have to talk. And we spent many hours and we came out of this discussion, it was before the Christmas party, so strong. That was the foundation of our relationship, friendship and relationship in the years to come. But what I said to him is, we cannot not speak to each other.

59:08If there's something that annoys us, you just have to pick up the phone, you have to tell me. And I'll promise to do the same. Because the rule with Suzy is, if there's something that makes us angry, we talk about it before we switch the light off in the evening. We don't let it drag into the next day. And a year or two passed and we had a situation that annoyed me and I didn't call him. And he called me and said, remember what you said to me. We have to speak to each other. And I said, you're absolutely right. So he reminded me of what I said to him. So when he thinks something is really good, or a good skill to have or a character trait or mindset, you know, he just becomes that.

59:55So he had to remind me actually. And we see you as the leader of the team, but he's the leader on his side of the garage. What's impressed you from the way you've seen him lead the team in that garage? I think I really struggle with the word leader because a leader for me is that you stand above your people, not with them. There's so many leaders in this organization and everybody is best, tries to be the best, him or herself in the role. I'm trying to contribute best as a team principal. Louis is a leader as a driver. James Allison is a leader with his engineers. And so many other people are leaders in the organization.

1:00:34And only if we play good in our position and we share those objectives, we're going to be successful. There's this metaphor that we have is we're not like a bunch of five-year-olds playing football, all running behind the ball, but we let the ball run. We stay where we are in our center of competence. I've got a few quickfire questions for you, if you're happy.

1:01:04First question, how do we be a good person and also remain a fierce competitor? A good person can be a fierce competitor and the other way around. I think as long as you're authentic on who you are, you respect other people, you stay true to your values. For me, it's humility, honesty, integrity. You still can be a fierce competitor and a fighter, a warrior. What's the single biggest thing you've learned about yourself in the last three years? Three years? you've got to change what's the single biggest skill a leader needs that is often overlooked you know talking about skills or yourself makes other people puke so I'm okay what's the biggest skill you've seen from members of the team here that you think is too often overlooked because you're so modest what's the biggest biggest skill so many skills so many interesting personalities that build each other up whilst keeping the pressure the skill is staying true to ourselves here in good and in bad not oscillating too much and for people that have listened to this conversation and still have that fear of seeking therapy or telling people how they're really feeling for the first time what would you say to them it's a superpower your brain your soul cries for help either because there's something to to work on because it caused some trauma or your your mind your soul tells that we got to change something here that's not going right or i'm suffering and if you have pain then you go to the doctor you wouldn't have a sore tooth not go to the dentist so it's the body is giving us signals and try to work on them, try to develop, try to understand why this is happening.

1:03:12Don't ignore it. And there are specialists for that that will accelerate you much more. And I'm always, you know, it's great to have a group of friends that can support you, but they will always have their own bias and perspective of things. Don't touch any drugs or alcohol. It's only making it worse. Going to the pub is not a solution. Speaking to someone will accelerate your healing. Brilliant. Final two questions. What does the morning look like for you to set yourself up for a great day? I'm lucky because I kind of know when I perform best. And that is not the mornings. So for me, I need time for myself.

1:03:50I can stay up very late night. I'm an evening person. But I need my eight hours sleep. I want to read the news in the morning. I don't want to be pressurized by any meetings. So having time for myself, that's important. And sometimes I wake up at 6 o 'clock in the morning. Sometimes I wake up at 8.30. And having the luxury of being able to have me decide when that is. So that's how my day starts best. And you shift your day later, so meetings in the afternoon and things. I don't have any meetings before 10 o 'clock. That's my rule. No back-to-back meetings. There always needs to be some space in there.

1:04:30My phone is always on silent. I don't have a ringtone. I look at it when I have time to look at it, and then I decide whether it is a conversation that I want to have at that very moment. Social media? My wife says that I'm really a victim of it, and aren't we all aware that we shouldn't spend too much time on it? The algorithms are so good, and sometimes the content is good. So I'm between deleting social media and then using Susie's phone to look something up, which annoys her. So then I'm on it again. But you just, the way I look at it is like when we were children looking television. You know, this is just a moment where your brain goes on pause for a while.

1:05:18But I don't let myself drag into this. But the algorithms are really good. They drag you into this. So I'm trying to limit it and I'm not always very good at it. But I know very well that don't spend too much time on it biggest strength greatest weakness of myself someone else should judge come on again a puke moment for everybody strength resilience weakness

1:05:56I don't know we'll leave it there and the final question that's the beginning of the end that's in the trailer now yeah final question your one golden rule my wife would sing oh she'll have a whole list of weaknesses for sure your one golden rule I'm not punctual she says that's really bad I don't respect anybody else's time final question your one golden rule for living a high performance life I guess the thing you'd like to leave people thinking about when they finish watching this conversation hopefully league make people realize that they're not feeling adequate or they feel bad that I do so too.

1:06:36And it will all be good. You just have to continue to believe that. That's what I would like people to take from it. That's probably the most important message. And don't take yourself too seriously.

1:06:56You know one of the things that struck me most about that conversation is how Toto deliberately turned every hard thing that's happened to him into fuel rather than baggage, the loss of his father, the depression he carried for years. None of that gets left as just pain. He has built a genuine philosophy out of it. And I think that's the real lesson for me and you here. And it's, I suppose it's not that adversity makes you stronger. Like we hear that all the time. You'll hear that on a million different podcasts. I think what it's actually about is the choice that you have to make after the adversity.

1:07:25And it's not a choice you make once it's a choice you need to make over and over long after the moment of pain itself has passed and if this one landed for you and you're deep in the world of formula one or a bit like me you of course can check out our show high performance racing but you can also listen to episodes on here with adrian newey george russell landon norris fernando alonso christian horner and many many many more thank you so much for spending your time with us remember stay humble, curious and empathetic and we'll see you next time on High Performance oh, before you go please like, follow or subscribe it makes all the difference to us

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