What 24 Years of Consistency Actually Looks Like | James Milner

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2:28Hey, everyone. Welcome along to another episode of High Performance. I'm here alongside Damien. How are you? I'm very good, Jake. You? Very good. I mean, just look at how many people are in the room. Is there five of us in here or four? Oh, is there five? There's five of us in this little tiny studio recording this Wednesday episode of High Performance. There aren't many of us, but I think we should start with a round of applause. What do you think? Absolutely, yeah. A round of applause. Oh, yeah, there are five. It's so dark at the far end. I can only see four people in here. That round of applause was for a man who never dropped his standards, James Milner.

3:0224 years at the top. 658 Premier League appearances, the all-time record, got the Champions League, got three Premier League titles. Look, we throw the word legend around easily these days, Damien, but for a man who was a former guest on our show and we're going to delve into his episode and pick out a couple of lessons from him, legend almost doesn't feel like enough for James Milner. Well, you know, there's that lovely saying, isn't there, that if you're good, you'll get it, but if you're consistent, you'll keep it. And I think when you've set records like what you've just shared with him, it's the consistency, the non-sexy stuff, the stuff that happens in the shadows that defines why he is, or why he deserves that title of being a legend.

3:41We speak so often about consistency on these episodes and people that are at the sharp end revere consistency. And he's a man that's just role-modelled it. Well, should we get straight into hearing from him? Let's definitely do that. So James Milner joined us. It's probably a couple of years ago, isn't it? Will, how long do you reckon? Yeah, like over two years. Over two years since he joined us. And I remember all of us saying at the time, What if he announces his retirement on the episode? Do you remember? Yeah, yeah. Like, here we are more than two years later and finally he gets round to deciding that...

4:12But you know what I remember about that? He turned up an hour early because lateness isn't a standard that he accepts. You know, he sat in the green room, he chatted to... Do you remember we had Phil in there, one of our listeners that came in that day? Oh, yes. He sat with Phil, he was engaged in his story as well as answering questions that Phil was exploring with him. This was a bloke that just role-modelled it. Even in things that I went, nobody was watching. He was still living up to the standards that had become the hallmark of his career. And obviously we're not going to name them, but there are sometimes guests who come in and give us an amazing episode of High Performance.

4:49And when they walk away, we both look at each other and think, I don't really like them very much. Because what you see behind the scenes, what you see in the quiet moments with some of the production team or with someone that drove them in or the person that made them a coffee is very different to the things that they tell us on our episodes. and James Milner does not fall into that category. He absolutely, you're totally right, role model all the things he spoke to us about. But I want to start this conversation by rewinding right back to when he was a young kid, cleaning boots, coming through at the Leeds Academy, when his dad told him he wasn't going to make it.

5:23Shall we hear from him first? Let's go for it. Here he is, James Milner, talking about the early days when he was at Leeds. My dad was very good at knowing how to get the best out of me, so he always used to say, you know, you're not going to make it, you don't work hard enough and little things like that. And he knew that I had the personality that, all right, I'm going to prove you wrong. And he knew that he wasn't being horrible, how he said it or anything like that, but he knew that I'd be like, all right, I'll show you. And I think that's probably where it started. Now, this is very interesting.

5:52It reminds me a bit of Robin Van Persie when he said to his son, you want to be a loser, be a loser. And he kind of laid down the gauntlet to his boy. let's talk about this sort of deliberate provocation then as as parents or maybe as coaches as well nick cox the former manchester united head of the academy told us that they kind of they stretch the players then they reward they stretch and then they reward there's something very interesting in here about challenging people at an early age but at the right time yeah definitely i mean i get so many messages like i know you do jake from people that are parents of of of young kids that that they're asking the questions of how do I engage them?

6:31How do I drive them? But without being pushy or going overboard. And I think James's example here of the way that his dad dealt with him is a great example of how any of us that are working with young people can learn from. So again, we often cite DC and Ryan, Edward DC and Richard Ryan for this. They're almost the godfathers of what we know today as modern day motivation, where they prove to us that it burns for longer and far brighter when people own it. So external rewards are like having a shot of coffee. It can pick you up and give you an immediate incentive. But the motivation that burns longest is what's internal or intrinsic.

7:09And there's three pillars to it. One, having a sense of ownership. One is the sense of mastery, of wanting to get into the detail of it. And then the third one is doing it with a sense of purpose. So what James's dad seems to have done there is he wasn't motivating him by shouting at him louder. he was getting him to take ownership of his career and the challenges he was doing. So that's really important because he wasn't creating a sense of dependence on him. He was getting his son to sense he was in control. He had high levels of agency that I'll show this, I own this, I'm good enough. They're all James and taking ownership.

7:44And that was what his dad was nurturing in him. And it's like the hallmark of all great coaches that they might see that spark of fire, but great coaches protect and nurture that fire and get you to sort of make it burn brightest. So we both have kids that have played or do play football. You know, Seb's a lot younger than Geordie, he's only 10, and he had a football competition this weekend. A heartbreaking semi-final defeat, 1-0. But I ask a lot of parents, like, shouting at their kids during the game, just like, come on, wake up, stop being useless, get involved in the game. You know, these things, I know that if you played them back to those parents, they almost hang their head in shame right and be a little bit embarrassed.

8:26But there's very little value in yelling at your kid during a game, get more involved or work a bit harder. What I really like about what James Bond's dad did to him was that he never said to him what he needed to do. He just said, I just don't think you're going to make it. I just don't think that you work hard enough. And as the point you just made, his dad wasn't owning this thing, going, I'll show you what hard work is. You're yelling till his son did it. He just went, I don't think you have got it. And there's something about when someone almost isn't angry with you, but is actually a bit disappointed in you.

8:59That lights something, I think, that his dad understood. I think he knows this, James, and I think if we look at this now, this wasn't, as James said, his dad being horrible. I think he knew exactly what he was doing at that point, didn't he, his dad? Definitely. Just testing him. Yeah, I mean, there's a psychologist on this called Roy Baumanster that talks about the most effective way, if you're going to challenge somebody, challenge them on effort and not on talent. So what he means is like, because you have some degree of agency over the effort you put in, how focused you are, how hard you try.

9:32So be better or why you're not good enough should be work harder or why you're not trying harder. Yeah, but again, think of another guest, Shane Parrish. You're not positioning yourself to give your best. So when Shane told us about his son and his son went, I'll try my best in the exam. He went, no, you tried your best in the hour of that exam, but you didn't try your best two days beforehand when you didn't go to bed early enough. You didn't try your best three days earlier when you didn't do the revision that you needed to do. So positioning yourself and challenging people on the effort bit that you have some degree of autonomy and control over is far more effective than challenging them on their level of talent.

10:12And if you listen to what James, his dad, was challenging him on there, it was on the bits that you could control, the effort, the investment of time, training, and the sense of purpose. So if his dad was an early role model, what happened at Leeds was also absolutely vital. Should we have a listen to a clip where James talks about, and people like you and me are these old boys, we lament the fact that a lot of this stuff is gone now from the game. There aren't young kids cleaning boots of the senior pros and learning on the job. James absolutely did that, and I think it's a good place to understand a bit more about where the work ethic came from.

10:47Yeah, well, it sounds like a bygone era, but there's an awful lot of wisdom that's contained within that era. We had a group of players who'd done very well at Leeds and Champions League semi-final successful players great personalities some lads who took me under the wing and looked after me kept me away from the media duty after games I made sure I didn't have to do that and little things like that and it gave you time to be yourself but it was at that time keep your mouth shut I didn't want to stand out off the field. I wanted to keep my head down, speak when spoken, do my jobs, don't attract attention in that way but as soon as you get on the pitch, that's when you want to attract attention, do your job, impress people, try and be the best player and show people you deserve to be there but off the field, not be noticed, show respect to the guys, keep your head down, not, you know, get bantered for your gear or whatever it is, you know, you don't want to do anything to stand out or the car you're driving, anything like that, just be under the radar and, you know, hopefully getting people's minds when you're on the football field.

11:50I feel lucky that I played in the old school, if you like, and then come through to now. I've had an experience of both. The standards, like make sure everything's done, the basic stuff, cleaning boots, and picking gear up off the dressing room floor, even when I was playing in the first team at Leeds after the games, I'd scored goals. I was helping the kit man until he gave me the nod and you feel a million dollars, you feel like you're earning the right to be part of this first team. You know, I'm 16 years old. I've been in the academy. We got allocated players and because I was a first-year scholar, I had under 18 players' boots to clean.

12:28I had a resi player and a first-team player and I'm playing in the first team and I carried on cleaning the under 18 captain's boots because, you know, you have to earn your right. He's still older than me even though I'm playing in the first team and I think that's something that doesn't happen now and young players are very lucky that, you know, They're treated like professionals from eight, nine, ten years of age and that's brilliant. But I also think the values I learnt from earning the right to be in that dressing room by doing the horrible jobs, doing the skips after the game and things like that, when the kit man turns around to you and says, go and get on the bus, you feel like, not med it, but I'm part of the team now.

13:02I'm one of these guys. I've earned that right and it makes you hungry to push on again. I love that clip because it captures beautifully the whole earned status versus assumed status. You know, think of it like this, Jake, that assumed status is the title on the door, but earned status is whether people actually listen when you enter the room. And James seems to understand that respect is something that you build. It's not something that just comes by being part of that dressing room. There's a brilliant piece of research by Mike Norton, and it's called the Ikea effect. And the learning is that we place greater value on things that we've helped build.

13:39So like a flat pack wardrobe that you've assembled feels far more like yours and that you feel ownership of it than one that just arrives that's fully formed. And Norton found that this was true across everything that we create. And it got me thinking about whether dressing rooms are similar to that as well. That when James Milner was cleaning boots and emptying skips like he just describes, that wasn't humiliating like the lens we often put over it. It was, he was building something where it was like an ownership of that environment. and he was contributing to it even in a small way. The sense that this place is partly mine, I've earned a place here.

14:14So I wonder whether sometimes jobs that look menial from the outside, psychologically, are actually enormous because they're teaching him something that no welcome speech can ever make. No sense of having your peg in the dressing room can necessarily offer you. It's a sense that this place matters, but I do as well because I've earned my right to be here. That's interesting. I wonder whether this is something that we've lost slightly. I think back to when I first started in television and I spent the first year of my career whilst redoing my A-level exams, earning five quid a weekend for making tea, operating auto-queue, being a sound assistant, moving sets around.

14:57Every menial job you can do in broadcasting I did. That then meant when I actually got a job in broadcasting, I had a full understanding of what everyone was doing so when someone would say like oh there's a lot for the sound man to be thinking about on today's show because we've got loads of guests I'm like yeah well I remember miking up five people really quickly to put them onto live television a few years ago and I worry that and I don't want to denigrate young people in this but often what I see is a desire to rush to the place that you want to be rather than giving true value to the period that feels like you're at the bottom of the rung.

15:36And I think this feeling that if you're on the bottom of the rung on the ladder, like you're not learning what happens at the top of the ladder. But that's actually not true because you're spending time seeing what the people at the top of the ladder are doing and you work out how to get there. Do you remember when we interviewed like Russell Kane? And he said people come up to him and go, oh, how can I be on the undercard of one of your comedy gigs, please? And he's like, well, you do the work. You don't walk up to someone with a six-pack in the gym and say, how do I get a six-pack like that?

15:59because you know the answer is you do crunches, you eat well and you exercise. You have to, in life, do your crunches, eat well and exercise to get your rewards. You can't just go straight there because I also think when you do go straight there, then you don't have, as James Milner was talking about here, you don't get the thrill of that reward of like, I've earned the right to be here. And I think we have to return to an era where earning the right is something that is actually earned rather than just something that is expected. Absolutely. I mean, think of, again, another of our previous guests, Lando Norris, talking about, you know, he's the son of a very wealthy man, and yet he was going into the garages at McLaren.

16:43He was sort of working with the engineers there. He was helping them shift boxes, move tyres around. And he said, well, what would I rather be doing? I could go back to him and play PlayStation, but I saw that as an investment, that the relationships of people that might one day have to serve me that one day might have to help me. I'm investing in it so they know that I've earned my right to be there. I think there's something really powerful about that kind of earned status rather than assumed. And that's what I love about James Milner's messages. And of course, by the time he got to Liverpool, he had the earned status.

17:17But what I also like about this is that when he got to Liverpool, having earned the right to be a leader in that Liverpool dressing room, you know, a leader at one of the biggest clubs in the world, that wasn't the moment to rest on his laurels. He was the guy. You remember Pep Linders saying that James would stand by the clock on the entrance to the training ground and anyone that arrived later than they should have done, he's the one pointing at the clock. And Trent Alexander-Arnold saying he felt he had to pass James Milner's test to be accepted. Should we hear him talk about it? Go on. How do you go about setting standards?

17:47So we understand about timekeeping. We understand about doing the right things off the field. But how do you go about setting them? I think everyone's different and everybody does it in different ways I think you have people who are vocal you have people who lead by example I think if you can do both I think that's the ideal I think the first thing is setting by example I think like if you're not doing everything right it's very hard to pull someone else up for being late if you're late all the time and late's a simple thing but it's a respect thing it's like if you think oh I'm 30 seconds late a minute late for a meeting two minutes late well everybody else in that room is sat there waiting for you so why should that happen and people don't see it like that but if we're a team and we have mutual respect we're all there on time and it's a bit of fun we always had fun with the fines and things like this but this was our standards and if you can't be on time for a meeting or training when it's the most important thing you have to do that day as a footballer you're training if you can't be on time little things like that then when we're on a field and everything's moving at a million miles an hour and we've got a set piece and we've got a man off injured and we need to reorganize if you can't be organized enough to turn up to a meeting on time how are you going to be able to do that in the heat of battle and I think it all feeds in to little things like that I think the other thing is as well as you get older you notice everything or I always had this thing where you notice little things is someone like is someone not going in the gym and why is that is there a reason for that how can you approach that is it someone who needs a rocket is it someone who needs an arm round them as if someone new needs an encouragement I think that's something that I've learned as a oldie start thinking of the game a bit more like that and I think that was an important role that the manager has so much to worry about in terms of preparing the team media every two days you know before after all this sort of stuff and things like that he doesn't need to worry about the dressing room and as senior players I think that was always important that you run the dressing room and any problems within that it's stopped before it becomes an issue with the manager whether that's people not doing what they should, not doing the right things on the days off, not training hard enough.

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22:43I think what's interesting there is that they managed to bring a bit of fun into setting the standards. And I think that, you know, we sometimes feel that if you're going to set the standards, then you have to do it through kind of rules and being strict and being aggressive and being hard. But I actually liked it there when he said, well, We always had fun with the fines, but it was also setting our standards. Yeah, and it's, I mean, there's a couple of lines there that he used where he talks about the language was precise. He said, this was our standards. Notice he doesn't say that's the manager's standards or that's not the club's rules.

23:14He's owning it. And that comes back to that lovely phrase about nothing you do is neutral. Rolling your eyes isn't neutral. Turning up late isn't a neutral act. it's about sending a signal of what really matters here and i think what james is understanding intuitively is the idea of social contagion that behaviors that are accepted that nobody challenges almost become um contagious within that environment so if you see somebody turning up late and seems to get away with it it then blurs the lines of well am i expected to be here on time what's the consequences of not. So, James is reinforcing the positive behaviours that we get here early because it shows that this place matters and it shows that we've got respect for each other's time.

24:00I think there's something really powerful about the way that he upheld that. Do you remember as well when we spoke to Rio Ferdinand and he said players would come in the Man United dressing room and celebrate a win and they would be the ones saying, no, no, no, we celebrate trophies and titles, we don't celebrate victories in this dressing room. And, you know, our question was, how did Sir Alex Ferguson and uphold the level of standard. And he said... He didn't. We did. The players did it. That's really what he's talking about here. And can I play another clip, actually, about Joel Matip? Go on.

24:30When Joel hadn't been around that long, but he got involved in the fine system and it kind of allowed the players to understand who he was a little bit. Yeah, go on. Here it is. No, I think it's something we worked on and it's tough with him out of games, but you try and do the social things together and things as a group, things with families as well and get the girls involved. So I think we tried to fit those in and early on we had a couple of trips in the January and we went to Dubai as a team and a lot of things like that and we had a team picture on a boat and it was up in the dressing room and those memories and things like that and I think that helped players settle.

25:07It was pretty early on in Virgil's career actually. I think it was the first two weeks at the club when we went there and a trip like that, it's like pre-season. When you're away together for a week, you feel like you've been there a lot longer than you actually have because you're in together. So I think you have to work at it and it's important, but those relationships are key. And early on and as well in that group, we had the fines and we had a court case and we had a big inflatable dice and you had to roll it and things like that. How did that work out? So we randomly drew who was the jury that day and I'd basically be running the court and arguing why someone should be fined and the jury would decide and someone would argue the case if they shouldn't be fined or not.

25:48What sort of misdemeanors are we talking? Well, if they were late but they had a reason or flip-flops in the gym and there's a reason I had to do this and someone was arguing and you always got the people who you argued non-stop and it was quite funny actually because Joel Matip's like one of the funniest guys now and he was in there and I don't think he'd really said too much of that to the point and he was on the jury and it was like, right, what do you think? He was like, yeah, double, pay double and people's personalities came out straight away and it was a good togetherness thing and I think that these little things just create that dressing room and enjoying other people's pain, I think.

26:25What was the role of the dice? So the dice was you could either pay your fine or you had different things, so one would be a double payment, one would get off with it, one would be a forfeit. So I remember, I think it was Bobby Firmino was on a Swiss ball trying to balance trying to throw a tennis ball into a foam roller. And he had three attempts, and if he got it, and he didn't have to pay, like little things like that. Did you get it? No, did he? Yeah, little things like that. So I think all those things helped, when you think about the journey now, helped the group become the group. You see, I think that's really interesting, because I think this idea of having a court for fining people for making mistakes and turning up late or being the worst trainer or whatever, I think sometimes it's easy to just dismiss that or denigrate that as like old school football stuff.

27:13But I think that misses the point that doing these things is kind of like a cool culture building moment because these people are not going to live a life like us. They're going to share the heaviest burden under the greatest scrutiny with a stadium of 60 ,000 people and an entire city, sometimes an entire country on their shoulders. So they have a huge amount of daily pressure and the stakes are massive. so anywhere where you can inject a bit of lightness but also still use it to uphold standards i can see why this has started in football a long time ago and still remains relevant today in a game that apart from that has probably changed beyond all recognition yeah so like anthropologists like margaret mead or paul eckhart often talk about like rituals matter really enormously for for us as a species because they create a sense of belonging it's a shared language and also like a memory.

28:10So teams don't bond with each other because somebody comes along and says, you guys need to trust each other. They bond with each other through sort of repeated shared experiences that become part of their story. Like, do you remember James talking to us about when they went to Dubai and they took a picture of all the team, all the squad on that boat and that was what they had up in the dressing room because it was that shared experience of this is a brotherhood and we protect the brotherhood, but to get, to be a member of it, you need to sign up to the same behaviours, the same standards, the same language that the rest of us are doing.

28:43So his story about how Joe Matic was integrated into that brotherhood is a really good example of why Liverpool was successful for the period that James was there. Let's talk a bit as well about Manchester City, right? Because I think what's interesting about his time at Manchester City was that he was Mr. Versatile. And actually, that cost him, didn't it? Because there was moments, big moments, big finals, where he wasn't the specialist, so the specialist played, but James Milner's professionalism and versatility is the reason City made it through to that moment anyway. And he kind of, he developed this reputation as doing the unglamorous stuff, but like the hard yards were his.

29:20And I think it would have been such an easy option for him to focus on one position and make it his own. But actually he knew his real value to the team was being flexible. And it's to his credit that in some ways that cost him. and I love the fact that he didn't change. Should we hear him talk about it? Yeah. I do believe that if I was like that at times, I would have maybe played more but then on the flip side, my versatility at times in my career has probably got me games where maybe I wouldn't have played at times as well because I could play different positions and do things in games. So there's flip side.

29:57I've no doubt that it probably has cost me but I would never change it. I don't think it is the right way. It doesn't... there's a right way to be and conduct yourself. And yeah, I don't think, I mean, that would ultimately mean I'm affecting my teammates if I'm sulking in training, kicking off and things like that. And it is a team sport. So the team always comes first regardless of anything else. But that's also you betraying yourself. I think one of the standout themes of this conversation is whatever happens around you huge success difficult times toxic dressing rooms great dressing rooms you stay true to yourself yeah I think that's important I think the same as any team but any individual I suppose you have your values and what drives you and what pushes you and you have to you wouldn't want to change from that I think that's you are who you are and you have your beliefs and I suppose if you change them then for me that's not the right thing to do I think obviously if you're going down the wrong path then you have to change yourself but I suppose if you believe it's the right way to be and you're fully invested in that why would you change the way you are?

31:18I mean this probably is the standout characteristic that I took away from our chat with James Milner that there's a real cost to being consistent when actually being inconsistent had actually been more rewarding for him. So he knew what he was going to be sacrificing, but he still sacrificed it anyway. I think there's that old saying that a principle only actually really counts when it costs you money. And I think this is a really good example where this cost James those prestigious appearances, and yet he was still prepared to do it. Many people adjust their behaviour to fit into the environment they're in, but I think the real power of James Milner is that he spent 24 years asking, how do I stay myself regardless of the environment I'm in?

32:02And I think that is what makes him such a special individual. And I think it's totally understandable that people might listen to this conversation and think, 24 seasons in the Premier League, being wedded to structure, almost 700 appearances more than anyone else, all the success, being lauded. You know, he's 40 years old and he's walking away from football. Surely he's going to struggle. And look, none of us can sit here and say that he won't struggle when he doesn't have the structure or he doesn't have the winning and losing moments in his life. But actually, towards the end of our conversation, when we spoke to him about regret and he gave us the answer we're about to hear, I think this is the nicest moment because there's always a fear when an elite athlete finally stops doing what they're doing.

32:47And I always fear for them physically and mentally. But actually what James said put us both at ease. Here's what he said. regrets no not one um not one i think that's that's something i don't really do i think i analyze everything think about decisions in the right way and and pull the trigger and that's my decision and i fully 100 commit to it and if it is a mistake well oh how can i make it better or we've chosen this path that's it like It's pointless regretting what you've done. I think it's important and I think it's great that he's not got to this point and had any regrets. I don't know how he will cope in retirement because structure was obviously such a big part of his life, but so was holding himself to the highest standards.

33:41I don't know how he knows any longer if he is holding himself to the highest standards because he can't measure himself every Saturday with a 1.3 points or no points, can he? Yeah, yeah. But I also think that what gives me real optimism that he's somebody that will thrive in this post-playing career life is the fact that he also seems quite a rounded individual. Do you know what I mean? Like he had plenty of other interests that Henry told us about. He was teaching his children to speak Spanish. You know, he was a guy that was fascinated in other sports. we spoke to him about his involvement in golf.

34:17You know, he was a bloke that had his foundation that gave him a sense of perspective of how to make a difference to those less fortunate than him. I think he's a man with a really keen sense of perspective. He appreciates how hard he's worked, but also how lucky he's been to be in that world. Absolutely. And congratulations, James, on a brilliant career from everyone here at High Performance. I tell you what, we should definitely try and see if he'll come and join us again and talk about life after retirement and reflect on the final few seasons. That'd be cool. James, if you're listening, we'd love to host you.

34:49Indeed we would. We've got some lovely reaction to the episode with Nico Rosberg. Have we? Yeah, it only went live on Monday, a couple of days ago, and already, I mean, hundreds of thousands of people have enjoyed the episode. Jose Carman said, what an amazing interview to watch. I understand the psychological struggle Nico had to overcome in order to be the world champion. I've always been a Lewis fan, And at the time, I thought I understood why Nico decided to retire. But hearing him explain it in his own words made me realise there was so much more behind the decision. Congratulations on this incredible interview.

35:21And congratulations to Nico for the dedication, sacrifice, and mental strength it took to achieve his dream. Obviously, I used to host Formula One. I spent a lot of time with Nico. I'd met him many times. You'd never met him before. What did you think of the conversation? I was really blown away by it. His self-awareness was stunning. the way that he was willing to be candid and talk about what he was good at, but equally where he struggled was really revelatory. But the bit that stood out for me was his willingness to tell us about going seeking the help and support of a philosopher. I knew that was what would get you.

35:58Honestly, how brilliant is that? That this was a guy that wanted to understand the origins of emotions like anger and envy and jealousy. And not just say, how do I stop feeling them because I don't like it, but how do I actually learn to understand them? So if I can label them, I can articulate them and if I can do that, I've got some greater degree of control over it. We also filmed it in the harbour at Monaco and obviously it's slightly different to Norwich and Manchester. Mate, how good was that pasta that you had afterwards? Was it pesto linguine? Pesto pasta, yeah. We were sat there, weren't we, and we were thinking we could live here.

36:35Yeah. We could get used to this very quick. If only we could afford it. But I loved it. And then the best thing went to Ken, you went, is that the pesto linguine? Do you remember? She's like, yes, that's what it is. And I had some chicken, and then Will and the team came downstairs and proceeded to eat all my chicken. But that was you being a team player. Can I ask you? I'm still annoyed. The other bit that I've told people about when I've recounted the Nico conversation was Michael Schumacher's mind games. Oh, my goodness. What was your take on that? Yeah, I mean, I knew that, I suppose, I knew that Michael was ruthless.

37:10and I knew that he had a real will to win. But I think even I hadn't really considered that that would extend to mentally breaking down your teammate. Because I suppose for a long time he was with Rubens Barrichello and it just worked, the two of them. I know that for him and Felipe Massa got on well. I think that this was Michael's return to Formula 1, right? And he felt under pressure, particularly once he started driving and wasn't getting the results that he got previously. And I think maybe, I'm not saying he was perfectly well behaved previously, but I think maybe that impacted some of his behaviour with his teammate.

37:49And I think he definitely would have felt as a seven-time world champion to come in against a fellow German who's a lot younger and has not been a world champion, to be beaten by them would be thoroughly unacceptable. And I think he was trying to prevent that from happening. But the stories, I mean, if you haven't heard them, the stories were incredible Brian Cooper has spoken to us about how philosophy can be really interesting for personal development which we certainly learned from Nico Humbans Wolfshine one single word for Nico intelligent intelligent enough to realise that he had to play Hamilton at his own game the mind games and intelligent enough to realise he only needs one championship and that was enough for him Claire underscore 16 loved the conversation thanks to the comment from Mr.

38:34Onov V thank you for inviting Nico more so to Nico for being so honest in expressing his reflections and his point of view and Henry Wyatt said I'm pinching myself this shit is free on YouTube what an incredible world finally Armour King I'd love to know because he said he doesn't care now he's got now he's not scared anymore of the unknown and goes for it if he was still racing today would he still retire I think he would don't you yeah definitely I think he did the same thing all over again before we wrap up anything that you've seen watched enjoyed in the last few days that you would recommend I want to recommend a brilliant book.

39:08I read London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe, and I loved it. It's a really good book about a young boy who pretends to be the son of a Russian oligarch in London. True story. But after reading that, I was really taken with the author, and he's written a book called The Empire of Pain. It's a book about the opioid crisis in America that was facilitated by a billionaire family called the Sacklers. and what it shows is a book and what the book shows is how intelligent, sophisticated people can convince themselves that they're actually doing good while the reality of the harm and the misery and the suffering that they're causing is actually playing out in front of them.

39:51It's a phenomenal story and one worth reading. I'll have a look at that. You won't? No, probably not. I'm watching the new World War II documentary with Tom Hanks. Oh yeah. Is it like 12 parts? Yeah, it's 12 parts. I mean, we did think we'd get Tom Hanks on the podcast. Then it turned out we were given 15 minutes with him and could only talk about Toy Story. So we didn't do it. But I've forgiven him for that and I'm still enjoying this new documentary series. It is good. And you recommended the Kylie documentary. Oh my goodness, how good is that? Did you watch it? Do you know what? She comes across as the nicest person, doesn't she?

40:27Yeah. And actually really sad when she talks about she's never found a love like she had with michael hutchins really moving well i think what stood out for me when i thought about it afterwards was like some of the questions the intrusiveness of questions that were asked back in the 80s and in the 90s about asking her about getting married or having kids yeah yeah things like that i was surprised that uh what was acceptable and encouraged by how far we've gone away from that kind of conversation it's actually if you watch a lot of old school content, it's amazing how often. What was the show that I watched?

41:05Who was the British actress who looked like Marilyn Monroe? Jane? Oh, Jane of the Doors. No, maybe she wasn't British actually. She was American. She passed away in a car crash. Jane Mansfield? Jane Mansfield. Yeah. Reminds me of a documentary I watched about Jane Mansfield where she was kind of trying to be taken seriously as an actress and a musician. She was a brilliant musician. And she went on to all these, like, chat shows and people were like, the chat show presenters were like, oh, I hear you play music. Oh, yeah, do you do it with a low-cut top? And all this sort of stuff. Wow. And one interviewer was like, just shut up and look pretty.

41:41And he literally said that to her. I mean, this is going back a long time now, like 1950s, 60s. But you just think, like, it's only now in hindsight you look back and you think a lot of these women have had to really fight and fight and fight against this, like, narrative and Kylie absolutely like her sister talks in a way that Kylie probably still can't on that documentary about how hard it was for her but I thought it was moving and sad did Harriet watch it with you? yeah she did in fact she annoyed me because we were watching the first two episodes together and then two nights ago I went oh come on let's watch the last part of the Kylie doc she was like oh I watched it without you like that is the unwritten rule of marriage don't do that shit man if you're watching a series together you stick together and watch the series 100 % if you've done the first two Oh yeah, we're getting divorced.

42:27Anyway, nice to chat. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. And I think, you know, whatever world you're in, James Milner's lesson is that value compounds. You know, the boots you clean at 16 are without doubt connected to the Champions Leagues that you win when you're in your 30s. This life is about having one standard and holding that standard for a long, long time. So it's a question worth thinking about. In your own environment, are you the person that raises a standard? or are you the person that benefits from somebody else raising it? Because James Milner did both and he did it for 24 years.

43:01He wouldn't watch the final part of a box set without his wife. Correct. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

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