What Does Healthy Masculinity Look Like?

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1:25Hi there, welcome along to High Performance with myself, Jay Comfrey and Damian Hughes. In today's episode, we're asking you what does healthy masculinity look like after so much conversation around inside the manosphere with Louis Theroux? As well as that, what do we think about the way that Liam Rossini is being treated at Chelsea? What can Norwich, being voted the best place to live in the UK, teach us about how we can live our lives? The big news regarding LeBron James. and what are the big things we can learn from how Johan van Graan has turned Bath around in the world of rugby union. Hey Damien.

1:58Jake Humphrey: Hey Jake, how are you mate? I'm good, thank you very much. Let's start then talking about this Manosphere documentary that Louis Theroux released a couple of weeks ago. It's got everybody talking, whether it's on social media or on news channels or in newspapers. What did you make of it? I know you've watched the documentary. Yeah, I found it interesting. I found it was like shining a light on a corner of an internet that I wasn't that familiar with, if I'm honest, some of the characters that occupy it. But I've been more interested in the reaction of people afterwards rather than the programme itself.

2:32Jake Humphrey: I mean, those people have always been there, you know what I mean? Grifting, looking to make money, looking to sell an easy narrative of how success is only a fingertip away if only you listen to their advice. It's not them that I've got an issue with. I think it's more around shining a light on them that has presented me with some conflicting thoughts. It reminded me, I don't know, are you ever familiar of something called the Werther effect, Jay? No. Right, it's a concept. So it's named after a book by Goethe called The Trials of Young Werther. But what it says is, is that when people commit suicides or when celebrities die and it gets an awful lot of attention in the media, what you see is you'll see a spike of similar suicides or or or deaths that are similar to how a celebrity died in the months after it because it attaches a little bit of glamour it makes people think that this is possible and my issue has been more around the fact of shining a light on people that have been there anyway but it's people's reaction now we're aware of them so you're more likely to attract people to their to their tribe to go and express an interest in them rather than just ignoring them, you know what I mean?

3:44Jake Humphrey: And leaving them on the fringes of society. That's what I've sort of taken from it. What about you? What did you think? Is there not an argument? Well, I just wonder whether there's an argument that it's still important to call out people that think that their wives should be monogamous, but they can sleep with as many people as they like. I mean, and many other things that these people believe. Like, is there not something positive about the fact that Louis went there and met them and spent time with them? And that actually, if we didn't know they exist, then we wouldn't know there's a problem.

4:20And if we didn't know there was a problem, then we would be surprised when we find that our sons at the age of 12 or 13 or even younger, maybe, suddenly have views that we think are abhorrent. Like, isn't it important we know they're there and then we can speak to the men in the world and say, listen, these are the things they think. And this is the reason why what they think is wrong.

4:39Jake Humphrey: Yeah, well, yes and no. My view is that those people are going to be there anyway. I don't think those people are going to be threatened or change their view because they get called out. I think shining a light on them makes them more attractive to people. It makes their notoriety more attractive. I remember reading a really interesting stat years ago about the gun sales in America, that when Barack Obama was the president, Gun sales went through the roof in the States because of the perceived threat that he was going to come along and ban them. Yet when Donald Trump took over with a more liberal approach to gun laws, sales actually fell through the floor because there was no perceived threat anymore, so people were a bit more relaxed about it.

5:26Jake Humphrey: And my view is, I think shining a light on these people makes them more attractive to people that are more inclined to want to go and seek them out that might not have heard of them before, but now think, oh, actually, this sounds really good fun. Or, you know, I saw Piers Morgan walking off an interview online with one of the guys that said that Louis... Yeah, that was HS Tiki-Toki when he was intubating that he was sleeping with Piers Morgan's wife, and Piers just said, I'm not doing this, didn't he? And he got up on the show. Yeah, yeah. But he's not aiming his audience at Piers Morgan or people that watch him.

6:02Jake Humphrey: He's aiming it at young boys that would think that that is fantastic, that you're sticking it to the man or there's an establishment figure like Piers Morgan getting wound up by him. You know what? You've definitely stumbled on something really important there, which is that what the sort of stock in trade of these people is to say that mainstream media or the Matrix is out to get them and you need to realise that if you have any different opinion then you're going to be a target and they're going to have a concerted effort to quieten these people down. The problem is this makes it easier for those influencers to claim that because they see Piers Morgan getting angry or they see Louis Theroux going and filming with them.

6:41And it's really easy to then go, look at the efforts they're going to to shut us up. And I do definitely think that there's an issue there. I think one of the other problems that I've had with the kind of almost universal condemnation of these kind of toxic masculinity, manosphere influences, right, is exactly what I just said. This idea of toxic masculinity is kind of this sense that all of our young men are broken. It feels to me like we're saying that millions of young boys are watching these people now. I'm sure they do have an audience, but I would also believe or like to believe or do believe that 80 % of young men are far too smart, far too bright, far too well thought out, far too clever, far too well educated, far too in touch with their emotions, far too caring of other people to go anywhere near these people.

7:37I still absolutely believe with every fibre in my body that we're all getting upset and angry about a real minority, both in terms of the leaders and the followers.

7:49Jake Humphrey: 100%, yeah. And it's that confected outrage that actually attracts more people to them. You know, like even this phrase like toxic masculinity that you mentioned there, Jake, I think, again, we need to sort of just stop and just explore it. like so if you think of it on a graph right or if you draw a line a dissecting line on a piece of paper you go toxic and non-toxic toxic at the top non-toxic at the bottom and then on the on on the axis you'd say and then masculinity and femininity so you go so you think of toxic masculinity in the top right hand corner what does that involve it's about thinking like speaking down to people that are weaker than you you know being homophobic being sexist and all this kind of thing well what's the alternative and then you go well i don't like labeling myself as non-toxic that doesn't feel particularly inspiring so then you go well what's what do you mean by non-toxic masculine behavior and you go being all the things you just said empathetic being sensitive to others being in touch with your emotions and then you ask so what's the difference between non-toxic masculinity and non-toxic femininity because it's all the same stuff so you start to see how redundant some of these labels really are do you know what i mean like you should just use it because the alternative doesn't mean a lot and i think when we give people these labels it drives an identity that then ultimately drives a behavior it can almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy and you know do you remember me or further on talking to us about labels on the very first interview he ever did where he was like nobody's going to put me in a box you know just because i grew up in peckham and i do ballet doesn't mean that people can say that i'm a certain person i'm going to write my own scripts and i think there's a danger of this confected outrage from the manosphere debate then labeling young men as toxic masculinity i think it all adds up to actually putting us in a worse place than if we just sort of said everybody is individual you know like you can have helpful or unhelpful behaviors you can have people that have you know that behave in despicable ways in some things but they can still be kind they've still got the capacity to be decent people I think seeing people as individuals rather than these labels is a it's something that I feel really passionate about well it's interesting you say that right because after watching the documentary and thinking a bit about this, I stumbled across a website called the Center for Male Psychology.

10:29It's an American website and an American group. And I was reading an article by a guy called John Barry, and he actually answered some questions on this website to the independent. He was approached by the independent, and he answered some questions for them. And this is based on his research, right? One of their questions was, and this ties in so nicely with what you're saying, what does your research show about the impact of viewing masculinity negatively on boys? And his answer was that the research carried out by the Center for Male Psychology found 85 % of men and women agree that the term toxic masculinity is insulting.

11:09And this is crucial, unlikely to improve men's behavior and possibly damaging to boys if they read or hear about the term. So he researched with 4 ,000 men. And his research found that thinking masculinity causes you to engage in bad behavior, for example, being violent towards women, was correlated with worse mental well-being. But, and this was apparently quoted in the Independent article, thinking masculinity causes you to engage in good behavior was correlated with good mental well-being. So a key question then is where do these beliefs come from? And really what he's saying, his guess, is that negative beliefs about masculinity are being promoted daily in the media, daily in academia, by the government, by NGOs.

11:54And he believes that these messages impact men negatively. He also said that no matter what people claim they mean by the term, it's much too easy for it to sound negative, especially in a culture where negativity about men and masculinity is far too common. um i think what was what was interesting um they asked him does the phrase toxic masculinity imply that masculinity is bad by default and he said that some people who use it say they don't mean that masculinity is inevitably or inherently toxic just as some expressions of it are toxic however as they point out in the british psychological society textbook called perspectives in male psychology he said it's difficult to use a compound term like toxic masculinity without implying that the toxicity is part of masculinity yeah yeah right um and and i think this is so when i think about this and and i think about your toxic masculinity i actually don't think so much about the people that were on louis theroux's documentary i actually think about like george your son or seb my boy yeah and i think that these conversations around masculinity i think when they come up, I find myself, like you, really interested in the labels and thinking about those boys and those young men.

13:09Because I think like, what are young men hearing? What are they being shown? Who is helping to shape their view of themselves? What happens when nobody's there? And there's this great phrase, Damien, you've probably heard it, it said, a child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth. So I think one of the questions here is, with so much conversation around the louis documentary inside the manosphere um it's all been about criticizing young men but i keep on thinking that i think so much of this actually starts long before someone ends up in that dark corner of the internet like it's so easy to criticize the influencers and it's so easy to criticize the young people who are in those dark corners of the internet but let's but we should be having a conversation instead of just criticizing them we should be asking what's missing who are the role models who's where's the guard coming from what are the honest conversations young men are having?

13:59What are the examples of strength rooted in kindness that are in their world? Where, who's talking to them about responsibility or self control? So like, I know you want George, like my boy, Sebastian, to be kind, to be grounded, to be responsible, but also to be strong, but gentle, to be protective, but not be aggressive, to be grounded, not to be performative. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's the work

14:22Jake Humphrey: parenting go on a mate of mine brian in um in dublin sent me a message recently he does a lot working he's like his gaa club where they're talking about this sense of belonging for young men and he sent me this brilliant poem that just as you're saying it there reminded me this is by uh a guy called dara fleming and and it's uh the title of it is if i ever have boys there'll be dangerous men let me just read it here because if i ever have boys there'll be dangerous men. They'll smile at dogs and children and be a tonic to friends. They'll send flowers to their mothers just because and they'll be a shoulder for many when the world is too much.

15:01Jake Humphrey: My boys will know that vulnerability is strength. They won't bottle anger. They'll learn how to express. They won't let pride be the reason they hide, wearing masks while they're hurting inside. No, my boys will be dangerous men. They won't stay silent even when it's uncomfortable for them but they'll use their voices to amplify the unhurted. They'll know that love isn't something to perform. They'll see beauty in all its forms. My boys won't grow learning to emotionally hide. They'll reshape masculinity into something they like, make it softer to touch. They'll know that who they are is more than enough.

15:40Jake Humphrey: They'll know that being a man doesn't mean carrying the burden alone. They'll learn that an emotional man is a man fully grown. they won't settle everything with violent swings they'll live in truth even when that truth stings so yeah if i ever have boys they'll be dangerous men but the danger they'll be won't be the one society meant isn't that brilliant yeah i love that and you know when at the end when he says they won't be the one that society meant um like i think that we're talking about the statistical minority as this further majority, aren't we? Like there was always going to be a hardcore of damaged young men and damaged boys, right?

16:20That for one reason or another, you know, bad behavior is something that they lean towards. But I think if we keep on saying to our sons, hey, don't be that guy. Or, you know, just because it's not you doesn't mean that you're not part of the problem. I think there is a risk of making the hardcore worse. And there is a risk of damaging and harming other boys as well. And I think, I actually think as a coach, we've failed terribly at celebrating the positive contributions of men, right?

16:49Jake Humphrey: Bingo, yeah. And that's why I think like the Louis programme is great because it's interesting and he's a brilliant interviewer. Like, do you remember that time we met him when we were backstage with Stormzy? There's two name drops if ever you've heard that. But I still talk about him because he gave me the most elegant dismissal, Louis, ever. Did he? What did he do? But it was lovely. It was so elegant that I was chatting with him for about 20 minutes. And then he said to me, he said, just remind me of your name again. And I told him, I said, it's Damien. And Damien, I really enjoyed chatting with you, but do you mind if I have five minutes just to think about my interview I'm going to do with Stormzy?

17:27Jake Humphrey: And it was so lovely that it was a really elegant way of saying, can you just leave me alone? You're boring. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But he is brilliant. So I love his interviews. I love his style. I like the way that he just, he asks almost like naive questions and then leaves that silence for others to fill. So this isn't a slight on Louis or his programmes, but your point is right that I think he's shining a light on the extremes of our society and then creates this moral outrage and panic. Let's shine a light on the majority of young men that are out there doing the best they can in the best way that they can.

18:11Jake Humphrey: You know what I mean? But they're not headline figures. That doesn't make an interesting documentary, does it? There was a really good clip that I saw on social media of the day that I want to tell you what it says. And it was basically a guy and he was talking about Andrew Tate and he was basically saying, he was addressing it to young men. He was saying, listen, young boys, don't follow Andrew Tate and I'll tell you what a real man is. And it's on Instagram and it sort of clips of him like chopping up wood and walking in the snow and doing all those things that you'd imagine a so-called real man would do.

18:45And this is what he said. He said, don't listen to Andrew Tate or other aggressive alpha type men. He says they don't know masculinity. Masculinity, true masculinity is sacred. It's protective. It's not aggressive, as I've just said. It's disciplined. It's not reactive. It's grounded. It's not performative. While dominance is a masculine trait, a man in his sacred masculine does not aggressively dominate others. He is assertive but controlled. He is strong but he's gentle. He doesn't measure success in power and control over others, only over himself. A powerful man holds himself accountable. Unlike the Andrew Tates of this world, he values restraint over lust.

19:36has no need to show off, and his actions should mirror a deep respect for all people. I think that's a really good summation, actually, of what we think masculinity, or what some people think masculinity should look like and actually what it really should look like.

19:55Jake Humphrey: Yeah, I like it. Yeah, and again, I think, you know, how often have we seen, like, some of our guests on the podcast, that you assume are going to be the alphas that are going to walk into a room and attempt to dominate it and try and make themselves feel better at others' expense. And how frequently have we been surprised by that, even when they have a public perception of it? The one that I often think about in that regard is, before we interviewed Alistair Campbell, and I said to you, didn't I, that most of the time, I was a bit wary of it because I'd seen him shouting at people in political debates and sort of like hectoring people that didn't agree with him.

20:39Jake Humphrey: And yet when he turned up, he was kind, he was decent, he was talking about his kids, he was talking about his own mental health challenges. And it was a reminder that sometimes contacts was really key. I remember you saying to me, you've never met him, so why don't you give him a chance? And I think when I did that, it was a really positive surprise. And I think when we treat people from where they are, not where we think they should be. We often allow ourselves that option to be surprised. Yeah, yeah, it's a really good point, actually. I think on reflection, the one part of the Inside the Manosphere documentary that I was most pleased that Louis Theroux managed to bring to the surface is the fact that these male so-called influencers are just grifters.

21:23You know, they're actually just trying to make money out of people, like this idea of trying to sell courses or get you to sign up to some sort of investment scheme or whatever. Like, they're not real leaders. Do you know what I mean? They're not actually, they don't actually care what the young men of the world think or whether they can take them in a certain direction. They're kind of like, they're just uneducated grifters and they just literally want to sell them something to make some money. And if they were able to have impact and make money believing something else, I've no doubt they'd believe something else.

21:54You know? It's just the easiest thing for them to do to try and get a few quid out of people. and that's one of the other that is one of the big issues i think as well yeah so with that in

22:03Jake Humphrey: mind then i think when we talk about sign like shining a light on on on this corner of the internet i think we're almost hypocrites in a way because that's what we've done but i think i'd like to make the point of don't have this confected outrage for it instead focus on on the far more people that are doing really good things and trying to make a difference because because they're the ones that deserve our attention. You know, it's where your attention goes, the energy flows. And I think I'd rather point out the people that are doing good things rather than these people looking to capitalise on the weakness of others.

22:40I think that's a really good point. That is a really good point. And actually, another area that it didn't tell the story well enough on was the impact on the women in the lives of those men. You know, they could have just made fleeting appearances, didn't they, on the show? So I think it would be much, much better actually to really show the impact on those women, which I think is equally important. All right. Interesting. We're going to continue the conversation after this. At High Performance, we talk a lot about performing at your best, physically and mentally. But I'm going to be honest, High Performance should also include a bedroom as well.

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24:06Jake Humphrey: Hablas espagnol? Parli italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation-based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply.

24:48Jake Humphrey: Well, Jake, I've got to offer you congratulations as well. Thank you very much. Living in what is officially the number one place in the country, according to the Sunday Times. There you go. I've been telling you and everyone else that will listen for years that Norwich is the best place in the country. Nobody believes me. I hope that now they do. Yeah, I was reading all about it. I was reading about your kid's school. I was reading about how it's seen as an ideal place to bring up a young family. Like, you literally were ahead of the curve, weren't you, 15 years ago? There you go. I told you, I mean, I tell you why Norwich is amazing, right?

25:25First of all, well, for years we've had a history of accepting immigrants, right? So the so-called weavers who arrived here in the very early days of Norwich, in like the 1500s, they were welcomed with open arms. And ever since then, Norwich has had this really nice bohemian feel about it. You can be yourself in Norwich. It's welcoming. It's open. It's really creative. But it's also like, I honestly feel like it's dynamic as well. And people I know laugh about this. And they just like send me Alan Partridge memes every time I talk about Norwich. But you think about high performance, yeah. High performance was born in Norwich.

26:03Like, you know, the idea, the very, the original seed for the show came from Norwich. And apart from you and Will, both based in Manchester, You know, most of the people that were instrumental in the early days of this show were from Norwich. So I'll tell you what I'd like to explain to people, right, is that they think that if you don't live in one of the main cities in the UK, like, you know, Birmingham or Manchester or London or Liverpool or something, that you're like, you're somehow kind of like accepting second best. But I don't believe that's true. Like, Chloe, who runs the High Performance Foundation, lived in my village.

26:37Josh, who's the CEO of High Performance, lived in my village. Hannah, who was the COO of High Performance, used to go to school with my wife in Norwich like 20 years ago. Eve, who was basically, I think, our first ever employee. She's moved on. But she went to the University of East Anglia here in Norwich. You know, like, you don't have to be in one of these big cities to be ambitious. And I really want people to understand that one of the world's, you know, biggest podcasts of the last few years has been created in Norwich. there is a really vibrant tech scene actually going on in Norwich. And I think one of my big lessons that I've learned actually, which might be valuable for a few people listening to this, is that I think sometimes we're obsessed with like how to hire great people.

27:20And I see people talk about it an awful lot. And I think the odds of you having a job available, putting the job advert out for that job, and the perfect person seeing it, being available to apply for it, applying for it, impressing you at the interview and getting the job. Like, I honestly think it's like a one in a million star shot, right? I think it's way better to just hoover people up as you go through life. And it doesn't mean that you can instantly work with someone or you can instantly do something great together, but it just means that you kind of, you surround yourself. And I know you've seen a lot of research about this.

27:55You kind of surround yourself with great people and you just keep on talking to them until something appears that means that you might be able to do something together. And that's exactly what I've really done with all the people that have started working on high performance. I remember we spoke to Steve Parrish, didn't we, the boss of Crystal Palace about this? That's right, yeah, yeah. He was saying to us, I hoover people up, I don't employ people. And when he said that, I suddenly was like, yes, that's exactly what I've done the last few years. So I'm really proud to live in not just the number one city in the country, but the number one place in the country where you can, if you're ambitious, dedicated, creative and hard work, and you can build something like high performance.

28:33You don't have to go to London to do these things.

28:36Jake Humphrey: No, I like that. Well, I was looking at it from a slightly wider lens, Jake, where I was looking at what is the impact on your life chances when we're going to talk about this. And you're touching on one of what's referred to as the three Ps. So the first biggest influence is your parents. When you leave that maternity ward, where you go and who takes you are the two biggest things, your parents and your postcode, have the biggest impacts on your life chances. Like I was reading some stats that if your parents went to university, there's a 64 % chance you will. If your parents didn't, your likelihood of going decreases to about 18%.

29:15Jake Humphrey: If your parents own their own home, there's a 71 % chance you will. If they didn't, it drops to 46%. In terms of postcode, you know, in the poorest postcodes in the country, So your life expectancy for men is 72. It's 83 in the richest postcode. There's an eight-year difference for women. So you start to see the impact of that. But the area that I think that you've just described there is the third P, which is around your peer group. The peer group, the people that you surround yourself with. And there's a certain element that we can curate that. We might not have as much influence over the first two, but that curating the peer group of surrounding yourself, gathering, putting yourself in positions where you can meet great people, people that aspire to great things, people that are on a pathway that you want to go down, all of this stuff gives us that chance to do it.

30:09Jake Humphrey: And those people are anywhere where we look. You know, remember Daniel Priestley, the entrepreneur, he was like, move. If people are not like that in your area, move. Go and hang around with people. Find out where they are hanging out and go and hang around with them. The contacts of the people you're with. It's huge. And like you said, in somewhere like Norwich that might not appear on the radar of people that think that's where you need to be to be at the cutting edge of things. The reality is those people are wherever you go and seek and find them. Yeah. I love that, mate. Well, I'm so pleased to live in Norwich.

30:44If anybody wants to move to Norwich, do it quick for the health crisis. Rock it! Right, Damien, I want to talk about Liam Resenia. I mean, look, I know that there's been some results that haven't been great, particularly in the last week or so. I just think the intense, I was thinking about like, you know, at the moment, everything he does and everything he says is scrutinized so deeply. And it's, you know, like the stuff about him making notes recently. And I just think like, how hard is it for him right now to be himself, to find the freedom, to make the decisions, the right decisions, to help Chelsea get better results?

31:22because I just think the criticism is totally over the top.

31:27Jake Humphrey: I think it's disgraceful. I think it's disgraceful. I was talking back in January to Joby McAnuff, who played with Liam and knows him really well. And he was telling me about how dedicated this guy has been to his craft of coaching. Do you know what I mean? Like this is a guy that has been preparing for this role for the last 10, 15 years. He said he's smart, he's intelligent, and he's pushed himself out of his comfort zone. Joby couldn't have been more effusive about him. So I was intrigued when he first came in. And it seems that there's been, I mean, some of the stuff I've read about him to me, I find it disgraceful that you've got a young British coach.

32:07You're talking about former players that have never been brave enough to be a manager, having a pop about the fact that he was making notes with a few minutes left, which is still a valuable thing to do, by the way. You're like, why get angry about that?

32:20Jake Humphrey: yeah i don't get it like i saw some i saw some journalists make some crack that he was like oh he was passing him a note to say have you listened to the latest episode of high performance and like i read it and i thought it's not even funny you know what i mean like it's not even a funny a funny joke that you're trying to say he was putting something else on this journalist about you know ask him uh who's on linkedin or something like that and and it was just like it's not even a bit of what you're saying. So lazy and not even funny, is it? And it's, I've often felt this, right? There are certain people that get criticism and then they get more criticism because they're safe to criticise because the people that do it are cowards, right?

32:59So no one will criticise someone who other people aren't criticising because they're such cowards, they wouldn't dare do it because they don't want to get it wrong and be like, oh no, I criticised that person and then I got a load of heat. So they wait for someone to look like everyone else is having a go at them and they go, brilliant. I mean, it's bullying. There's a vulnerable person. There's someone that everyone is having a pop-up so I can safely add to the noise and I'm never going to be in the firing line. Honestly, mate, 99.9 % of these people criticising him would never dare to risk their reputation by taking on a senior position in football.

33:36Well, 99.9 % of them haven't even got the qualifications. They're just sitting at home on their computers having a pop at him. And it's like, how does it go? it's not the critic who counts or the man who points out how the stronger man stumbles. The credit belongs to the man who's in the arena. And Liam Rossini is in the arena. And I find it really weird. Like you, I find the criticism strange. He was a decent player. He's done his time. He's prepped for it. He clearly cares. He's trying his best to just be himself in a world where it's really hard to be yourself. And I honestly think there's just a narrative against him.

34:15And it's so, it's just lazy. I hate it.

34:17Jake Humphrey: Oh, yeah. Well, I'm the same. And then, you know, the same journalists will then say, why don't we get more British coaches that test themselves abroad? And, you know, or why don't we get more British coaches that are willing to back themselves in different environments? And you've got a guy that's done precisely that. And then they're almost waiting for him to fail. there's almost like a glee about the struggles. And I just don't get what the point is. I don't get what you're trying to do as a journalist, other than, you know, get a few clicks and get a few cheap laughs at the expense of a guy that's genuinely backing himself to go out there.

34:57And I've also seen no one actually attempt to learn from this. I've not seen anyone go, look, Liam, can I just ask, like, why were you making notes at the end of the game? and why do you still believe it's effective? Like, why has no one asked that question? Oh, because it's much easier to have a pop and to have a couple of people in the comments praise you for having a go at someone. Oh, well done, you. But believe in no one has time.

35:20Jake Humphrey: Well, I mean, even that stuff, you know, about the huddle where he was saying, and now it's about, he said something about respecting the ball. And I think he was put into a position of having to defend something that the players have decided on. There's a brilliant guy called Willie Iser that joined Chelsea from Wigan Warriors, the rugby league club. And I believe that Willie's behind some of this stuff of getting the players that you'll notice that when they walk in at half-time, they all gather together and walk in together as a team. When they walk out, they come out together. So the huddle is just another way of expressing this idea of solidarity and togetherness.

36:01Jake Humphrey: so maybe it can look a bit clumsy maybe there's a performative aspect to it but i think the fact that liam's then expected to go in and defend it and then people just use those words but you know well then explore and go well do you believe it offers you any benefits let's explore why are you doing this who like who are the players that came up with that respect the ball thing you know he he actually said before they said my players made the decision too he didn't say well i think we should like he was literally saying what you just said that this was what the players this was the players decision they wanted to do this you know yeah that's what i mean i i find it all like nobody's exploring the context of well let's explore why are they doing this or let's explore like you say about those notes like i read a journalist recently that was sort of scathing about our interview that we did with eddie howe and they took a quote that eddie had given us where he said, vision drives decision.

36:58Jake Humphrey: Right. Now, what they didn't offer was, and they said it was the worst kind of LinkedIn speech manager. What they didn't explain was Eddie Howe was explaining that he'd heard our interview with Chris Foss, the FBI hostage negotiator, and that term was something that he'd spoken about, of knowing what your outcome is that decides how you're going to behave in the small steps to get there. But that wasn't explained, or it wasn't, isn't that interesting that Eddie Howe is curious enough to listen to people from outside of the football world to help him as a leader. It was taking that one small sentence and trying to make out as if Eddie Howe was some kind of buffoon or some management consultant.

37:39And again, I think, who is that benefiting?

37:42Jake Humphrey: Because you're not offering the context as a journalist to the guy that you're profiling, Eddie Howe. You're just trying to make out that he looks silly. So if Eddie Howe sees it, is he going to trust talking to that journalist next time and explaining his decision? So the ultimate losers in it are the fans. You know, like you've often said, tell everybody everything so people don't gossip. But having seen the treatment of Liam and Eddie Howe in that other article, you think, why should they bother to tell people? Because it'll be taken out of context and it'll be a stick to beat them with at a later stage anyway.

38:18Yeah, mate, you're totally right. It's all about the narrative that is around someone. I mean, I saw Paul Merson wrote an article saying, Liam Rossini should be less honest. And I just thought, what world are we in if that's what we're thinking? Is it the right way to go about living your life? I mean, like Jurgen Klopp, right, did amazing things in the Premier League. I remember in 2021, when I was covering the football, and Alison Becker made a couple of mistakes. Do you remember what Jurgen Klopp said? No, no, go on. He said he thought it was because Alison Becker had cold feet. honestly now it may well have been I don't know I'm definitely not criticising Jürgen Klopp what I am saying is if Liam Rossini now came out and said oh my goalkeeper made an interstate because he had cold feet right yeah yeah boom oh this is what he said it's you know like Jürgen would talk about the pitch being too dry or he once complained at Ajax that the pitch was a little bit muddy which is why they won the game but he was I remember him moaning about the pitch then it's like if one person says one thing, everyone will kill them for it.

39:26And then if it's the different person that says something similar, then it's not a problem because that person doesn't get criticised.

39:33Jake Humphrey: Well, again, it goes into what we're talking about with the Manus Fair debate before in this chat about you label people and one, it becomes self-fulfilling. Do you know what I mean? Oh, here he is coming out with his LinkedIn speak again. you simplify it so there's no nuance or subtlety in what you're doing and then you just create this in and out group psychology of then you go he's not one of us so therefore he's different so therefore we can get rid of him and then you wonder like no wonder British coaches have a hard time then getting trusted by the decision makers at their club because why would you you know like why would you go after another young British coach I mean just seeing the flack that Liam's receiving Mad Right before we wrap up Damien I want to talk about another coach a man I know that you know and you've been very impressed by Johan van Graan for people that don't follow Premiership Rugby for people that don't know much about Rugby Union I'd love you just to spend a couple of minutes explaining to us what he found when he joined Bath and what he's done since Oh mate he's one of my favourite interviewees that I've had the privilege to sit down with, only because he came on to high performance and there was nothing that he wasn't prepared to talk about.

40:55Jake Humphrey: You know, he was literally an open book talking about, when he first came into Bath, this was a club that hadn't won the title for something like 29 years. Within his first year, he's taken them to the title. This season, they seem to have gone up another level again. And I think so much of it is down to him as the catalyst. There's an owner, I saw James Dyson, has recently chosen to invest in the club. But I think so much of it is Johan as a catalyst for it. He was a guy that was telling us about how he insists his players take days off. You know, he's not one of these coaches that comes in and flogs them and works them hard.

41:34Jake Humphrey: He wants them to go home. He wants them to have time with their families and their friends. He wants them to remember that when your career is finished, you won't remember the trophies, but you'll remember the friendships. You'll remember the moments, the bonds that you developed in the dressing room. And he's just a bloke that lives that. You know, like I've stayed in touch with him since I spoke to him. And, you know, he asks after the family. Like, it's very genuine. Like, he'll text me and ask how my family is. he'll inquire what we're doing on the podcast as much as then he'll tell me a little bit about his own kids and uh and his own background he's just a truly decent man as well as being a great coach it seems to be doing phenomenal things so I really like watching it from a distance to see uh to see his success and what from what you know about what's gone on there what do you know about how he's managed to create such a turnaround at Bath because this is like they were a broken club when he arrived.

42:35They'd just beaten 64-0 by Gloucester, hadn't they? That's right, yeah, yeah. But interestingly, he took full control. It was a full leadership structure and I'd love a bit of insight into what you believe has been done. I mean, interestingly, I know that one of the reasons why he's been successful is constant note-taking. That's right, yeah, yeah. That's only a problem, though, if you're Liam Rossini.

42:58Jake Humphrey: Yeah, exactly. So you can look at Liam Rossini's writing his notes. You've got to look at this buffoon, five minutes left. But also what was Liam Rossini supposed to do at that point? Like when you're six or seven nil down, what you just, well, we've lost it. I'm not going to bother with anything. Like, the key's just trying. But anyway, carry on, sorry. But also as well, he's speaking to a 20-year-old Argentinian. So maybe he doesn't speak Spanish so well. Maybe he's trying to communicate something. You know, like Arsene Wenger used to say that the next match begins five minutes after the whistle's been blown on your previous one.

43:31Jake Humphrey: So maybe he's thinking about how do I give him instructions that he's going to follow out against Everton at the weekend? But you're right, so the note-taking. Johan was telling us that he's been like a prodigious note-taker since he was about 13, and it was advice from his dad of like thinking ink. So the idea is that rather than come out with an emotional reaction, if you write down your thoughts, it just gives you that buffer zone between your emotion and what you're actually going to communicate. So that's a big part of what he's done with his players. that he tells them everything and he captures their responses to it as well in his notebook so that he hears what you've said as well so you become accountable.

44:12Jake Humphrey: If you said, I'll be there at eight o 'clock in the morning, he's got it in his notebook. So he knows that that's what you said. He'll double check with you. So you've agreed that you'll be here at eight o 'clock tomorrow morning. And then players know where they stand at all times. When I've been in dressing rooms, I think there's two things that people demand from the leader of it. clarity and consistency. So they want the idea of tell me, just tell me where I am, good or bad, and then be consistent in the way that you apply it. And I think if you could boil down Johan's approach, it's obviously a lot more complex than this, but I think it's the clarity of his messaging and then the consistency in the way that he's applied it.

44:51Jake Humphrey: He's already got talented people in that dressing room, but they seem to have thrived within the environment that he's shaped for them. Brilliant. Before we wrap up, can I call someone out for being my high performer of the week? Go on. Who? LeBron James, who just broke the all-time NBA record.

45:131 ,612 games of pro basketball in the NBA. We interviewed Mike Mancius on the pod, actually, a little while ago about the dedication that LeBron goes to. And I think when you talk about over 1 ,600 games, you talk about the games. What you don't talk about is that 1 ,600 times that you can't go to your kids' parents' evening. You can't go out for a beer with your mates. You know you're not going to sleep very well the night after a game. You know you can't have a big night the night before a game. You know that maybe there's a family event that you can't be at. You know that there's certain food that you can't eat or you need to eat.

45:49I mean, this is long-term, serious, deep dedication. Should we have a quick clip from Mike Mancius? Yeah, go on. This is Mike Mancius talking about when LeBron decided that he wanted to be the greatest. Do you remember the day that you had the conversation about what LeBron wants to be? And the answer was, the greatest of all time? The greatest, yes. When did he first say that to you? It was really early on in his career. He was 19 or 20 years old when we had that conversation. And I said, OK, well, let's... And then, again, I was only 24, 25 at the time as well. You know, I'm only eight years, I'm eight years older than he is.

46:27And so, but it was my second year in the NBA. So I was just learning as well. And so I said, okay, let's do the research, you know, what others have done, what has failed for others. And so let's just learn from other people's mistakes and let's build our own journey. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? The whole episode's brilliant and you can find it. Mike Mancius, LeBron's coach.

46:49Jake Humphrey: Well, I mean, I think we can tie it. But where we started this conversation, like, I'm intrigued by him. I read a book called LeBron Inc. a few years ago. I think it's by a guy called Brian Windhorst. And the thing that stood out to me without knowing a lot about him was that he came from quite difficult circumstances. He never knew his father. I think his mother was only 14 or 15 when she had him. And, like, the village in Akron where we grew up surrounded him with love and care and attention. You know, he had strong male figures that taught him how to behave, how to conduct himself. And then when he was about 16, this fits with Mike's story, he developed a group that he refers to as the Four Horsemen.

47:35Jake Humphrey: These are friends that he got around him, that he knew had his back, that trusted him, and had his best interests at heart. So these are guys that have gone on to stellar careers themselves, like Rich Paul, who's an agent, and Maverick Carter, like one of his advisors. But he had four mates that he literally recruited them and then got them to go off and learn their own craft. But he stayed loyal to them, and they've helped to guide him throughout his career. He's a great example of what we were talking about earlier, that it's easy to focus on the ones at the fringes of society that are urging us to sort of put one over other people.

48:12Jake Humphrey: people like LeBron James have gone and curated their own peer group regardless of the parents or the postcard they've grown up in that have helped them go on and achieve such incredible success I think it's really interesting and you can check out the full episode of Mike Mancius as part of the back catalogue of high performance Damien, lovely to chat as always, thank you so much mate I've enjoyed it mate, I like this sort of just chance to reflect a little bit isn't it on what we're seeing so frequently. Absolutely. And have you got plans to move to Norwich? Not quite, but I do like visiting it.

48:50Well, it is the best place to live in the UK. Listen, if you enjoy Damien and I just sort of sitting and talking about the things that have been going on over the last few days, we'd love you to keep in touch with us. We'd love you to let us know what you would like us to cover. What are the big news stories? What are the talking points? What are the things happening that you think you need to hear? And also, if you agree or disagree with the stuff that we talk about here, because they are at times our opinions, we'd love to hear from you as well. Thank you very much for checking out today's episode.

49:17And we'll see you very soon for more from High Performance. Bye-bye.

49:29Parles-tu français?

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