What Elite Performers Do When The Pressure Hits

0:01Hi there, welcome along to another episode of High Performance with myself and my co-host Damian Hughes. Damian? Hey Jay, how are you, mate? Very well, thanks very much. I'm looking forward to this conversation actually because we're going to hear from Chrissie Wellington, the Ironman triathlete, Tom Aspinall, the UFC fighter who got rather nastily poked in the eye a few months ago, legendary All Black Dan Carter, James Milner, the record appearance holder in the Premier League and Yaya Touré who joined us recently on High Performance and gave us some serious wisdom um and we're going to be speaking to them all about dealing with pressure handling pressure but before we go any further if people are watching us on apple podcasts they can see where you are if they're listening to us wherever they get their podcasts they will not know that it looks to me like you are certainly not at home in fact you look like you're in a very salubrious

0:49Jake Humphrey: hotel room well i am i'm in shakespeare country jake i'm in uh the beautiful strafford upon haven i've come to meet a couple of mates go out for a few beers with them and then i've curtailed my to come back and chat with you. Have you honestly? Yeah, honestly. Mate, we could have... Professionalism. We could have recorded this at another time. No, not at all. No, professionalism. We've got a job to, as Roy Keane would say, do your job. So that's what we're doing. So go on, what's going on in your world? Oh, mate. Well, I mean, honestly, it's like Costa del Norfolk at the moment. The sun is out.

1:23The sky's blue. It's like 25 degrees every single day. It's lovely. um so I'm just I'm trying to take it easy I'm trying to just chill and catch my breath the kids have just gone back to school so we're loving that actually no the truth is right we're in exam time and you know how I feel about exams I don't believe they should exist and you know how I feel about school I believe it should be revolutionized whereas Harriet my wife is like hardcore into the revision so we keep on having these same conversations where she's like why don't you care about the exams as much as I do so I have to then pretend that I'm caring about the exams and get the kids to do revision of nonsense subjects I don't think they're ever going to make use of in their life but it teaches them hard work right and there's a value in that.

2:06Jake Humphrey: Well do you remember when we sat down with Ali Abdaal because he was like a tutor for a long time and at the time my son was going through GCSEs and I was asking him for any tips or advice and he had a really good way of reframing it he said revision isn't what you can put in your brain it's what you can get out of it so he spoke about the ebbing house curve of forgetting but it was like just test test test from me test and the more you can do that is you more you can get out of your brain rather than worry about what you can cram in it's actually a good point and i am being pretty facetious like i like the fact that the kids are in this point in their life so flows now 13 just turned 13 seb's 10 we're now able to have proper conversations with them about like you can sit in that exam in three weeks and think why didn't i prep and walk out feeling disappointed and all of your mates will be going yeah i think it was easy and you're secretly thinking it was hard or you can learn now at a really young age the importance of preparation of positioning as shane parish would have called it on high performance when he joined us um and that if you do the work now then on the exam on the exam day you can just relax it can be actually a nice stay at school having an exam right because you've done the work yeah exactly and and how are they responding to that just ignoring me i know exactly um all right well let's crack on with the episode because um for people that don't know on a wednesday we love to delve into the archives of high performance we go through some of the most interesting conversations we've had but we like to tie it to a theme so So normally on a Monday or a Tuesday, the messages between myself and Damien and Will, the producer, start flying around.

3:50And we talk about things that are going on in our own lives, things that we've spotted, things that we've seen that we want to talk about. And you had an idea this week, Damien, that maybe we should talk about pressure, which is so apt when kids are going through exam times. And I know, you know, you had double exams, didn't you, last summer with your kids? You know all about this. This is a very, very interesting conversation to have because the question isn't whether pressure is going to find us, right? Because it finds everyone. I guess the question is what we do when it arrives. And so therefore we've gone into the archives and heard from people who I guess in many ways have been in situations that most people can't even imagine.

4:26And therefore we can learn a lot from them.

4:29Jake Humphrey: Yeah, definitely. I think whatever we do, we're going to have to face pressure. I was talking to somebody this week who worked out in South African rugby who said that they have this lovely phrase that pressure will find you. So don't try and escape it, don't deny it, don't try and find a way around it, pressure will find you. So learning how to face it and deal with it and tackle it head on is the hallmark of all sort of high-performing cultures. You know, Sir Alex Ferguson used to call it squeaky bum time, that period where expectations are high and the pressure's really acute. That was the bit that defined champions from wannabes wannabes and you know you only have to look at the Premier League title race at the moment to see the sort of neck and neck competition between Arsenal and Manchester City or go to the other end of the table and look at Spurs and West Ham.

5:21Jake Humphrey: Squeaky bum time is very real in those dressing rooms so it's a topical area that I thought we could go and explore with some of the finest minds of our generation. Okay, great. Two Premier League footballers, a legendary all-black, a UFC fighter and an Ironman female triathlete. All of them answering the same question. What do you actually do when the pressure hits? Who should we start with, Damien? Let's start with Chrissie Wellington because, again, I hope that, you know, when we do these archive episodes, people will go back and listen to the whole of the conversation because her story's incredible.

6:01I mean, I still tell people about Chrissie

6:04Jake Humphrey: and I'm often surprised that people are not familiar with her incredible story. She was somebody that didn't start competing as an athlete until she was in her late 20s. She's a perfect example of a growth mindset. She had this latent talent while she was working as a civil servant. It was only when she ran her first London marathon and did a triathlon at Eton did she realise that actually that was where her superpowers lay. So I'd love to explore what Chrissie shared with us in more detail. I don't go into a race not expecting everything to go perfectly. Why is it important to expect it? Because then it doesn't, you don't panic, you're not anxious when it doesn't go according to some kind of utopian plan that you have.

6:49So if I go into a race thinking it's going to go like this, this, this and this and this and then I'll cross the finish line victorious, it's just not going to happen because that's not racing. Racing, the beauty of racing is precisely because it doesn't go according to plan. It's because you have to hurt. It's because you have to suffer. And I see that as part of racing. That's what I loved about racing. The unexpected, the discomfort, the self-doubt. It's the challenge of having to deal with that that I loved. So I expected it and I embraced it first of all I found it in the final race that I did and it taught me that I could achieve more than I ever thought possible

7:38and it taught me that my perfect race was when I overcame imperfections perfectly and so that race was certainly not perfect in the way I was able to prepare or the way I prepared and it was certainly not perfect in quotation marks in terms of it wasn't without pain and discomfort but for me it was my perfect race because it was the battle within myself that I had craved it was a battle with my competitors that I'd wanted and I crossed that finish line I felt I felt really complete as an athlete there was that one line that when I scribbled

8:27Jake Humphrey: my notes after the interview there's that one line that Chrissie shared with us that I still got how bad it was like I raced the imperfect race perfectly you know and I think that's something that when we talk about pressure things are not going to go to plan they're not going to go perfectly it's how you respond to that it's responding perfectly to imperfections that i think is a really interesting concept yeah i'll tell you what i think is quite interesting when it comes to expectation right is that two people can live the exact same experience can't they same outcome same result in the same moment yet walk away with totally different emotions because one had way more expectation and one had less expectation.

9:08And I think the outcome obviously doesn't change, but the expectation does. So I think most people try and control results. I think what we've seen in the conversations that we've had, and we're going to hear from more experts in a minute, is that high performers don't try and control results. They just manage expectations. And it's not, I don't want people to listen to this and think, what, so high performers lower their standards and therefore they're always happy with the outcome. That's not what I'm saying. I think what high performers do is they separate effort from entitlement. Does that make sense?

9:39They sort of go all in on preparation. Exactly as I just said with the kids, they go all in on preparation, intensity, execution, but they don't attach their emotional state to that specific outcome.

9:50Jake Humphrey: Yeah, very much. Well, Rory McIlroy gave a brilliant interview after he won the Masters a couple of weeks ago where he went, I'm just in love with the process, not the outcome. You know, I've learned to fall in love with that. But there's something else that is called by psychologists obstacle inoculation. That as part of the process you can introduce it, which is introduce moments of chaos, moments of things going wrong, moments where obstacles are put in your way and you observe how you do it. I mean, do you remember when we spoke to Mel Marshall, Adam Peete's coach, and she said that that's what she did with Adam where she made him dive into a pool that was full of moss on the front and they had to climb over the fence to get into the swimming pool.

10:35Jake Humphrey: And it was all dealing with those imperfections perfectly, equipped in that when he went to the Rio Olympics and he had his kit nicked, he was able just to handle it with grace. Yeah, he also said that he used to, because you know how people love visualisation and they love to visualise the best outcome. He used to visualise his goggles coming off during a race and what he would do, how he would think if his goggles slipped and he got all water in his eyes. And I think this is very interesting, isn't it? Because suddenly we're talking about the fact that high performers kind of anchor themselves to standards, not to outcomes.

11:10So actually, Adam Peaty expected it to be uncomfortable. He expected the path to be messy. He expected the setback to show up at the worst possible moment. And again, this isn't because Adam Peaty or many of the other people we've spoken to is a pessimist. It's because they're accurate, right? because often things will go wrong um and you know it doesn't feel like the world is breaking when it does because they've prepared for them and i guess that then allows something powerful to happen which is hold on i'm composed and i'm adapting and i'm not wasting energy in a really difficult situation so this is how i operate in a hard situation how am i going to be if everything

11:46Jake Humphrey: works out yeah exactly like your brain is a pattern spotting machine so if you've not built in that there's a pattern that things might go wrong it panics it gives you the risk of freezing in those key moments whereas your ability just to inoculate yourself against it is something that any of us can do whatever our pressure moment that we're facing can i um call up a clip now of a guy who damien i'm really keen to get tom aspinall back on high performance did you not message him recently about that yeah messaged his dad andy and he came back and said uh he was going him for another operation but he's really keen to come back i'd love that oh mate have you not got tom's number uh no no just his dad or his address you could write him a letter like you did roy keen and get no reply which i love to mention on every possible episode i might send a carrier pigeon wound why not okay so let's hear them from tom aspinall if you don't know tom's story one of the most eloquent, thoughtful, remarkable fighters in UFC.

12:49He actually fought recently, got a really bad injury. I mean, I don't think this has been said publicly, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's been thoughts or questions about whether he can continue because the injury looked so severe and he's had operations since then. But we spoke to him about fear and his advice to us was, well, don't deny the fear. This is Tom Aspinall, UFC heavyweight champion, doing the complete opposite of fearing the fear. Here he is. Well, I'm actually one of the rare UFC fighters that I'm aware of that will sit here and look you in the eyes and talk about fear because a lot of UFC fighters like to pretend they're not scared.

13:29Now, I have been, I basically spent my life in gyms and backstage at events and in these changing rooms. And listen, I've never seen, I'm yet to see a person who isn't scared. But it's very rare that you'll get a UFC fighter who will talk about fear. Wow. Because it's a taboo subject. People want to be this big alpha guy, don't they, who's like, I'm getting in there, having a fight in a cage with somebody. Listen, if you're not scared then, you're either a complete idiot or you're lying. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. So, David, it's so much research that comes in here when we talk about people kind of pushing fear under the carpet and acting like it isn't real.

14:12Jake Humphrey: Yes, Jake, it's called the ironic process theory. And in fact, when we sat down with Vex King, Vex spoke about this. He gave the example. He said, don't think of a pink elephant. Now, as soon as you tell somebody not to think of that, what's the first thing that comes into your mind? Pink elephant. Yeah, because your brain can't process a negative. So the idea of telling somebody not to do something, you put the idea of that thought in their head. So for Tom to say, don't think about fear, I don't think about fear, that's all your brain will attach to it it will keep throwing images of fear and things that are designed to spike your cortisol levels to get your attention so by acknowledging it and being willing to talk about it so freely you almost remove the power of fear to inhibit your ability and that's why i thought tom's interview with us was so powerful because again you look from the outside in and you assume that these guys have mastered it they know something that the rest of us don't, they've somehow managed to subvert their own natural psychological impulses.

15:15Jake Humphrey: And the reality is they're not. They're just willing to make themselves vulnerable and talk about it. I mean, does that ring a bell with your own experiences, Jake? It does. I mean, look, you and I have spoken often about the books that changed everything for me when I failed my A-levels and I kind of had a moment where I had to really take stock of my life and work out what was going on. And a friend of my parents, an amazing lady called Jill, Jill Atkinson. She bought me a book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers. And I think she was the first person in my life that realized that I wasn't in the school plays and I wasn't in the school football team and I didn't do very well in exams and I lost my job and I didn't stand out and I had had no successes really by the time I was 18 because I was feeling the fear and then shying away from it, right?

16:05So this book, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, was a game changer. and actually now when I think of all the things I've done since then I now realize that what that book allowed me to do was sit with that fear so if I think back to Formula One when I was told by my boss the audience will make up their minds about whether you're a good Formula One presenter in 10 seconds and if they decide that you're not there won't be a second season there might not even be a second race I remember calling my parents before that first Grand Prix saying I just don't think I've got the ability to do this. I wasn't ignoring the fact that I might only have one race as an F1 host.

16:39And I wasn't ignoring the fact that I thought it was beyond my ability level to do that job. I was kind of leaning into it. I guess walking away from that job, I was fully aware what it meant to no longer work at the BBC. And I remember my first day ever working for BT Sport, bearing in mind, I'd left the sort of most famous, biggest broadcaster on the planet. And I walked in a room of six people sitting around a table. And they said, welcome. This is everyone who works for BT Sport. And I was like, oh my goodness. Okay. But again, I was kind of putting myself out there and I wasn't ignoring the fact that there was a huge risk.

17:18And even when I started High Performance, you know, I genuinely questioned, and as you know, questioned it many times, will people give two hoots about the conversations that we want to have? So I think what that book taught me to do, feel the fear and do it anyway, was that fear is not something to be eliminated, right? Fear is actually something that if you sit there in the fear and still move forwards, then I think you're onto a winner. And I believe this about so many things in life. You remember when we spoke to Danny Gray, the mental health campaigner, I sort of said to him, people with mental health challenges are not the weakest people in the room.

17:57They're the strongest people in the room. And I think if we've, you know, you and I more than 400 episodes now of this show, I think probably the biggest insight, right, is that the people that we think are fearless, the people that we put on a pedestal, the people we see on the telly, we believe to be fearless, absolutely not true. Elite performers are carrying anxiety, carrying doubt, carrying pressure. And confidence, I think it's frequently something that people project. It is not something that they feel, you know, fear is not the signal to stop, it's the signal that something meaningful is happening.

18:29And I love that clip from Tom Aspinall because he absolutely understands that, doesn't he?

18:36Jake Humphrey: Yeah, he did. And when you sort of share some of the stories from your own background, I'm interested, how do you articulate fear now? You know, when you're with Harriet or your parents, do you talk about it as fear or do you use a different way of framing it? Yeah, no, I think I do. I mean, I'm very good at saying to Harriet, I feel a bit scared about this. you know i think this is i think this could be an issue um i suppose what i don't try and do is remove fear suppress fear or outgrow it i mean i think this idea of outgrowing fear is so wide of the mark isn't it like you literally don't outgrow it because as you grow the fear becomes greater because the challenges become greater so i think i think actually um normalizing fear is something that i've learned to do and that actually changes the game because i think once fear is normal like it stops being a red flag it stops being evidence that you're not ready it becomes part of your process and i think um the people you admire didn't get there without fear they got there alongside fear i think is the thing that i've learned um and you remember johanna conter when she spoke about your resistance being a 10 and if your resistance this is the former number one female british tennis player if your resistance to life is a 10 Even if life's challenges are a two, then the outcome is a 20.

19:57But if your resistance is a zero, the challenge of life can be a 10, but 10 times zero is a zero. So I think that she was absolutely onto something really clever here when we spoke about pressure.

20:08Jake Humphrey: Yeah, definitely. And, well, why don't we listen to another guest that sort of captures how they dealt with pressure? Because I think Dan Carter picked up on this as well. You know, Dan had that great line, didn't he, that New Zealand rugby were the world's best rugby team when it didn't count. When they came under acute pressure, they'd become somewhat less than the sum of its parts. And it was only the 2007 World Cup when they got beat to the France team that they'd demolished just a couple of weeks earlier in the knockout stage did they start addressing how to cope with pressure more seriously.

20:45Jake Humphrey: Let's have a listen to Dan explain what went on behind the dressing room doors of the New Zealand rugby team. When the All Blacks got knocked out of the Rugby World Cup quarterfinal, we were the worst performing All Black side in history. We were the number one team in the world. We were expected to go there and win that World Cup. We were deemed chokers because we hadn't won a World Cup for 20 years, being the number one team in the world for so long. so we went away and we actually really dived into the reasons why we run successful and a lot of it was around pressure we didn't like pressure we struggled to perform under pressure and we just didn't have the the tools to be able to perform under pressure so once we we changed our mindset around that all of a sudden we're able to to perform so for me high performance is all about performing under pressure and as soon as you realize that you you have pressure in your life you you should get excited and i know you had ben francis on here from gymshark i recently talked about pressure being a privilege and it's it's as simple as that like i i want pressure in my life if i'm going through uh you know a week and and um and it's all too easy then i know that I'm not on the verge of greatness.

22:14So what I used to do at the back of my run-up when I was kicking a goal in front of 80 ,000 people, the last thing I want to be thinking at the back of my run-up is like, oh my God, 80 ,000 people are watching me. What if I miss? I can't miss. I've just missed the last two. What if I miss three in a row? So instead of whacking myself, I needed to go external to get that thought out of my mind. So I'd start pushing my toes and the end of my boots into the ground for a couple of seconds. I was like, okay, cool. I can feel the grass at the end of my toes. Okay. And then I tell myself, okay, breathe.

22:49And then all of a sudden for five seconds, I haven't thought about missing the kick or all the people that are watching me. So I go back to my routine, breathe, visualize the ball going through. So that was something that would really help me get back on track and just reminding myself to just live in the now. Okay. Control the things that are directly in front of you now. And that's where the whole process focus rather than outcome focus really helped. You know, the interesting thing about that line from Dan there is like he learned this quite late in his career, Damien. And I sort of, I suppose there's two things.

23:28Number one, how good could he have been if he'd have known about it earlier? I mean, does that matter? It's a nonsense question probably because he was the best of the best. but I do wonder whether it's a reminder to us that even someone like Dan Carter is still looking for answers to the fear question at the very top of his game having been a successful All Black for years.

23:49Jake Humphrey: Well yeah because it goes back to what you said it doesn't matter where you are in your career the more successful you become the fears just get bigger because the platform gets wider and And your brain will naturally, in those pressure moments, it goes to, it looks at three questions, which is, what is expected of me? Dan Carter's got this track record of being nigh on the best number 10 in the sports history, so expectations are high. Do I have the ability to cope with those expectations? And then, what are the consequences of failure? Now, when you're playing in a World Cup knockout tournament, the consequences of failure, going back to New Zealand, having been knocked out in the quarterfinals, and the stigma and the anger of the fans is all quite significant.

24:33Jake Humphrey: So the fear just grows bigger. So his ability to be able to forget about the expectations, forget about the consequences and just be where his feet were in that moment and focus on his ability to kick the penalty is what I think makes his lessons just so powerful. Because again, any of us can be where our feet are at any moment. So do you think this transcends sport? This is relatable to people listening to this conversation who are not elite sports people, right? Oh, hugely, Jake. I think, you know, as we said at the start of this, that we're all going to face pressure in our own way, whether it's, you know, the kids doing exams at this time of the year, whether it's we've got to go in for a job interview, whether it's even just sort of having a difficult conversation at home with somebody.

25:25all those oppression moments in our brain will naturally seek answers to those three questions

25:32Jake Humphrey: expectations abilities and consequences so our ability to like filter out the noise and just be in the moment focus on what we're supposed to be doing is is is incredibly powerful so the next time geraldine gives you that face and you've messed up be where your feet are damien which is often lugging it out the door thing sorry Geraldine um I'm gonna bring in um a clip from James Milner now and I wanted to include this one because I think this is different from all of the others right I think so far we've spoken about what you do as an individual you know you be where your feet are you make sure that you don't ignore um the potential challenges in front of you in fact you lean into them and you prepare for them and you separate the outcome from the preparation or as you know chrissy wellington spoke about you know expectation is kind of everything i want to talk about leadership because we spoke to james milner about jrgen klopp and he shared with us what a leader can do for their people this is potentially the most powerful thing in this whole episode because if you're listening to this by the way and you're a leader um at work then um you'll be thinking oh great this is relevant but you know want everybody's a leader all of us are leading someone even if it's only ourselves so have a listen to what james milner has to say about jürgen klopp we lost the carabao or the league cup final i can't remember what it sponsored was the league cup final and the europa league final and it was it was different to what we you know the english lads were sat in the corner like he wanted everyone down in the reception.

27:10I think Hendo told this story and, you know, we were, like, fuming, like, don't want to be here, I want to go back to my room and he was like, it's important, everyone's together and he got us over and he wanted us all on the dance floor and he'd come over three times. Come over, he's like, no, come over second time and he'd come over third time. What was he saying? He wanted us to come over and what he wanted to do, he didn't know at this time, but he said, I want everyone on the dance floor. Was he dancing as well? Yeah, he was having a dance at that time, but he wanted us over to do what he did after that which I'll tell you and he was like he'd come over the third time he was like I'm your f***ing manager get your arse over basically and we went over and we're like for f***s sake we've gone over and he starts gives a speech and he was like basically saying this is the start of the journey basically look what we've achieved this year we've only just come in and you know basically this is it we're on a start here look what we've achieved and what he envisioned after that and what happened but he was basically saying look what we've achieved here and we haven't even started and then he had us all singing We Are Liverpool.

28:06And like, obviously, he's had a couple of drinks and a few of the others are. And it's like, I don't drink. It's like, obviously, it makes it a bit easier for them. But then you see his vision after. And again, that was probably the moment where two finals didn't win either. But he saw the bigger picture and he thought we haven't even started here yet, guys. Oh, it's a great, it's a great clip, isn't it? And it's a really good reminder about the importance of looking after our people. And, you know, if Jurgen Klopp can shift the mindset of an entire team, because one person communicated complete belief, then it's a reminder how powerful all of us are in other people's lives.

28:42Jake Humphrey: Yeah, well, do you remember after that episode came out that Klopp referenced it in a press conference, didn't he? That he'd listened to our interview with James Milner and he said how thrilled he was that his players remembered with such affection both him and the time that they'd spent working with him. I remember being really quite thrilled that Klopp almost validated what James had told us. There was me thinking we'll get Klopp on the podcast now. Yeah. That didn't happen. Yeah. Well, maybe one day, maybe we'll still get him on. But I think the powerful message there that James was describing, that again, how can we take this away and apply it to our own lives, is the understanding of the concepts of emotional contagion, where we can literally catch the emotional states of people around us.

29:32Jake Humphrey: you know this was um there's research from an anthropologist a guy called paul leckman he wrote a book called unmasking the face where he talks about how our emotions react on average about six times faster than our brains do so when you walk into a room and you put a smile on your face and you come in with a bit of energy people will will respond to that far quicker than what they will happy so when clock walked into that meeting room and gave his players that absolute belief that nobody believes we can do this but i do because i know you guys he's just communicating and and and making his emotions of belief and confidence and that sense of certainty contagious to his players yeah um i also think the other thing here is vulnerability right we had a great conversation didn't we recently with brené brown about this where she basically challenged elite sports teams tell me one thing you've ever had to do that involved bravery where you weren't also vulnerable like there's we none of us can get to this point where a fear of failure or self-doubt is no longer an issue unless we're able to be vulnerable because I think that when it comes to leadership especially like if we're talking about real leadership we know now from our conversations that it's not how it used to be a leadership used to be follow me I have all the answers I will tell you what to do and if you do everything I tell you we'll all get to where I want us to go that's just not what leadership looks like anymore it isn't about having all the answers it isn't about demanding belief is it it's about someone like Jürgen Klopp creating this environment of trust of honesty maybe of challenge as well where I think people begin to see more in themselves than they see in their leader does that make sense yeah very much yeah I think that was really powerful.

31:23Jake Humphrey: I mean, like, when you've worked for, like, you've worked in the paddocks, you've been around the dressing rooms, who's been the leaders like that, that make themselves vulnerable, that have impressed you? You know, I think actually someone who I thought wouldn't be vulnerable but really was when you chatted to him was Stephen Gerrard. I kind of had this impression of Stephen Gerrard, as a lot of people do, that he was kind of like this bulletproof leader for Liverpool. But actually, when you spend time with him, I suppose it's because one of the interesting things about television, right, is that it kind of breaks down all the barriers.

32:04You know, Steven Gerrard knew what he was doing on a football field. But when he first started working in television, he probably didn't know his way around a studio or putting on an earpiece or wearing a microphone. This idea of humility and vulnerability when it comes to leadership, I think it's a really interesting conversation. And I think that so often humility can relieve the pressure because as soon as we tie ourselves up into thinking I'm the person, I'm the winner here, I'm the one with the knowledge, I'm the one that can make this successful or unsuccessful, I think the whole thing falls apart.

32:39I think this is a conversation about how high performers cope with pressure. The answer is, mate, They do it by leaning into the people around them, as you know. You know, no single one of us is as good as a team of us. And you must have experienced this so many times in the dressing rooms that you've worked in over the years, where you have certain players that can't get to that vulnerable place. And therefore, it means that all of that pressure that comes with their job, they're dealing with inside, internally. They're not able to just kind of share the load with anyone.

33:10Jake Humphrey: Yeah, very much. I mean, do you remember that conversation we had with Dr. Pippa Grange when I said to her about banter. That's one of the things I often see when you go in the dressing room and sometimes when it's really quite caustic and cutting and you can start to see the sort of debilitating effect it has in the dressing room and on teammates. And I said to Pippa that I often refer to it as the language of the dickhead and she said it's the language of the insecure. That kind of banter of just putting the guardrails up stopping anyone get too close and you're doing through sort of like the waspish tongue or the acerbic comments that you make when you learn to recognize it's often comes from such a place of such deep insecurity and that inability to just be vulnerable to be honest to almost be naked there and say i don't know the answer to this i often find it's like one of my favorite tests when I sort of go into teams is, just listen to how many times anybody ever says the words, I don't know.

34:16Jake Humphrey: And you'd be surprised how infrequently it happens. And yet in the highest performing dressing rooms I've been into, people admitting I don't know, being curious, leaning into other people that have got a perspective that they don't have is remarkably common. It's almost like just, well, I think it's a soft skill that often has fairly hard, hard impacts in terms of results. I also think that one really simple and easy test that you can do with people, right? Go on. It's just to see how much they ask you questions about you. Yeah. And often it's the people that don't ask you questions about you that they're just, they're not able to share the load.

35:04Do you know what I mean? I think that an interest in other people, therefore an ability to lean into those people therefore an ability to understand that you're part of a team regardless of what you're doing in life like this isn't this is a team sport right life is a team sport um i think it says a lot about someone you know well actually as you say

35:21Jake Humphrey: that i was gonna like you mentioned steven gerrard there and i i often think that when i've been in the company of steven or frank lampard like just like name those two for example i always find it really warm how affectionate and grateful and and and happy they are when they see you you know what i mean and i always think that they're always interested in you they're always that and i'm talking about you personally jake and i think part of that comes from the kindness that you showed them in a moment of vulnerability it's something that the greats don't forget it the greats don't take that for granted you know and i think that they still that that still manifests itself in their relationship that they have with you personally.

36:04It's very, very nice. Very nice of you to say so. We've got one last clip. What should we bring people to give them some real value at this point?

36:13Jake Humphrey: Well, two reasons why I'm going to suggest this one. One, because it's a recent episode that I just thought was fantastic. And then secondly, it's because I did quite a lot of research around the world of Barcelona at the time. So speaking to Yaya Torre about that Champions League final in 2009, when Pep Guardiola led his team to his first Champions League and what he did that preceded it, that removed the pressure and got them to just focus on being in the moment, was inspired. Shall we have a listen to it? Absolutely. Can I ask you about, there was a motivational video that Guardiola played before that 2009 final.

36:55Yeah. tell us well i think i think that i think that's we don't say i think that's it bring up this kind of video bring up all your emotion right because in that sense of when i see myself and that by example i will tell you the way i see it because on that period when i was in barcelona when i see that i was like emotionally i was like high when I say hi is that positive way right because I was like you speak with the guys analytic guys they take a video they take in all the seconds of the season of each of the players or the teammates or the viewers as well and they make a nice graphic for 10 minutes for us it was beautiful it was something amazing because you see for example Xavi he's small he fights he gets scratched after he talks after you see Samuel Eto 'o fight on there and me I come and cover it all these seconds of video they will show it in this moment and we were all in the dress room sat in there watching that we were like and I remember in the end of that two of our players they were crying were you crying?

38:06me I'm not crying come on who was crying? some of our players was crying even me I was laughing but in the same way it was like all positive we were like we need to fight for each other and when we fight for each other because the video was saying that what people don't see, he sees, oh, the manager, the staff, even the guys from the analytics sees, right? And sometimes, even me as well, when we, but when your game, the action is going, I fight on there, after that, when the ball go there, you have to follow. Sometimes you see, you don't see your teammate there, he's struggling, he's fighting, coming back, all his injury, he's fighting, and those things, they put that all in the light.

38:49And that was for 10 minutes and we were like, oh jeez Xavi I love you Iniesta I love you you know what that's and we go fight together and it was it's brilliant it's a so good idea yeah so the film that Pep had put together for you the night before the Champions League final it wasn't a film of your greatest goals and your greatest passes no it was a video of you as brothers exactly fighting for each other fighting for each other and that was I think for me that was a fantastic idea in the end of the game no after before going to the pitch after the videos he didn't say nothing and we knew what we have to do fight for each other and care for that because even in the mountain we're saying like if we fight together we can achieve and that's brilliant sometimes emotionally it works and that's chapeau chapeau it was really good So does that ring true with the things that you learned about Pep's time at Barcelona when you studied that football club I mean weren't you like invited into Barcelona to study how they operated for a while

39:48Jake Humphrey: Yeah yeah I was incredibly lucky was back and forth from Catalonia while I was doing the research and there was three non-negotiable behaviours of humility, hard work and putting the team above your own self-interest and so I was familiar or I'd heard the rumours about that video but more significantly was what Yaya spoke about, it was a video of everybody and it wasn't the highlight moments of great goals or traumatic saves it was just everybody helping each other out it was videos of everybody that had played a part even if you'd with a third choice goalkeeper you were featured in it that nobody was above the team ethic and he wanted to reinforce it and it was a great example that Yaya spoke about about how suddenly the mood went from players crying players being emotional but ultimately players were determined to go out there and take care of their mate to look after each other that mateship spirit was brilliant.

40:45I remember Sio Khaleesi, the Springboks captain, talking about getting to know the players around him and telling us that the reason why that matters is then when you're on the pitch and you've got a few minutes left of a big game, you look left and right and you don't see your teammates, you see your brothers. And I think it feels like that was really what Pep Guardiola was doing there. And there's a few things that stood out to me when he said that. I think the first thing I remember thinking is, hold on, like you're shifting or Pep's shifting the focus here from the outcome of the game to the evidence that you're, that you've got the right people around you.

41:19So, you know, like all of us have done something in life where we were at the beginning, we think, oh, what if we lose? What if they're better? What if we don't turn up on the day? Whereas Pep kind of flipped that completely. And he wasn't saying to them, you need to believe. He showed them why they should believe. Do you know what I mean? It was like, I suppose, sometimes you can play like a hype video. Wow, we're going to be amazing. Look at all the amazing goals we've scored. and that video wasn't a hype video it was a proof video it wasn't like you can do it it was like hey you've already done it um i i also think um i think it removed the doubt for a lot of those players and this is exactly what we've spoken about in the last half an hour it removed the doubt without pretending that fear doesn't exist so i think players at that level as much as we like to think they don't they'll always feel pressure always feel nerves there'll always be uncertainty i don't think you can remove that and in fact I think if you remove that I think it would impact their performance in a negative way but I think you can also anchor them in something really solid at that point which is your own past actions have got you to this point as a team and that's what can help you to win this game as you often talk about Damien evidence leaves clues and this was Pep

42:30Jake Humphrey: showing them the evidence yeah definitely and and again like if people want to go back and listen to the whole of that fascinating conversation with Yaya, they'll hear him talk about how he didn't sleep the night before that final. He talks about how Samuel Eto 'o had sort of so deceded doubt in his mind of going, you, playing in central defence. So he spoke about that really, really candidly. But like you say, Jake, that confidence is built on evidence. So what Pep Guardiola was doing there was finding the evidence. And what I love about it is what we've heard from so many people, you know, Maro Otoji told us how at Saracens Rugby Union Club they have the initials TSPDS, the shit that people don't see.

43:16Jake Humphrey: Sam Tompkins told us about the one percentage in game reviews of all the things that nobody would pay attention to, but they focus on it. And I was heartened to hear that that's exactly what the great Guardiola focuses on. The stuff that the rest of us don't see, but as a teammate and as a player you value in the people that share that dressing room with you yeah it looks so interesting Damien I've really enjoyed this um we've got some questions that have come in from um the audience and a lot of them are about Colin Bell the 105 year old World War II mosquito pilot who joined us on high performance uh a week ago absolute legend oh mate Scott Elder on Spotify said what a great guest he then said I was actually hoping to learn more about what must have been an unwavering mindset every time he got into a plane.

44:05Now, Scott Elder, let me explain to you that Damien and I, numerous times in the interview, tried to get into his mindset. And what happened every time we tried to delve into his mindset, Damien?

44:16Jake Humphrey: He just went, I was just doing my job. In fact, afterwards, he castigated us, didn't he? He said, I enjoyed this interview, but he kept asking me about my mindset and my emotions. I didn't, yeah, I was just doing my job. But I actually think that is the answer to the question. This was a guy that just sort of anesthetized himself to emotions just to be able to focus on the task at hand. Yeah. Gary Lehman also on Spotify said he was very stoic in his outlook and his fun approach. I mean, the stoicism is such an interesting angle. And Oliver said, we won't be able to have conversations like this for very much longer.

44:54And I think really, Damien, that's the reason why we were keen to get Colin on the show. You know, he's 105, still drives, he worked until he was 100. But there are literally a few more years for people like Colin to be interviewed and then it can never happen again. So I think from that perspective, it was important, wasn't it?

45:14Jake Humphrey: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think, you know, we often don't appreciate what we've got until it's gone. And I think there's so many of that generation have passed away now. So to be able to speak to somebody that's still so candid and so crystal clear in his reminisces was just a privilege for us. You know, we're talking 80 years ago when he's still able to describe the terrifying experiences that he must have felt in the cockpit. And also, if you haven't heard, Oscar Piastri is on High Performance this week. A quick comment from Linda who said, a great interview with Oscar. I appreciate both the questions and the answers.

45:55The very things that some people hate Oscar for are the things that I most admire. He's composed, he's eloquent, he's a thinker. All the drivers are different. Him acting like Carlos, Max or Lando wouldn't be authentic. Those who want him to change would be the first to call him out if he did. So go on, Damien.

46:13Jake Humphrey: Well, you went down to walk in to chat with Oscar. How did you find him off the mic as well as on it? yeah i i really liked him actually i mean he said a couple things about what everyone looks like in 2026 that shouldn't and can't be repeated um because i think everyone in formula one is trying to be really careful at the moment yeah to say the right thing about their sport it's definitely in a tricky place um but he was kind of everything that i expected from him you know for a young guy um he is so calm and considered and there's a there was a couple of things that you would find really interesting right damien so he's obviously from australia right if you're going to have a motorsport career, you need to come over to Europe.

46:52It's the heartbeat of motorsport, right? Now, if you're Spanish, German, Italian, English, French, Scottish, Portuguese, you can do this and you can pop home and see mum and dad. Your cousins and your brothers and sisters can come to a race. You can whip home and eat a lovely bowl of pasta in Florence, if that's where you're from, right? Oscar Piastri at 14 leaves Australia without his parents and family travels to the other side of the world and is not able to pop home at the weekends ends up at boarding school to pursue his motor racing dream i think that is where his calmness and his composure um and his steely determination to win actually comes from and i for me it was almost the most interesting part of the whole conversation this concept that yeah of course he's in a totally different boat to to all those european drivers you know yeah and what and what

47:49Jake Humphrey: What in particular do you feel that that experience that gives him, that manifests as a competitive advantage on the track? I think that it is not reacting to the situation. If you listen, actually, when he gets a radio message that he doesn't like, he doesn't automatically respond and shout and scream like some of the other guys. He's actually silent for the first few seconds and sometimes just kind of goes, okay it's just acceptance it's again I think Oscar Piastri might be a stoic and he certainly showed some stoicism last season hey Damien have you got a high performer of the week before we finish oh yeah I've absolutely loved watching the London marathon this weekend and Sebastian Saway you know the guy that's just gone under two hours in the men's race for the first time in in the history of that what I'm particularly interested in is you know like the old start that people tell you when Roger Bannister broke the four minute mile and then in the 18 months after that I think the four minute mile got lowered 37 times um in the immediate months I'm interested to see what'll happen now that so that in the men's race somebody's proven you can break the two hour barrier I'll be watching closely I love it when human beings and it doesn't happen very often anymore because we've done everything pretty much that there is to do.

49:16But when you break a huge barrier like this, it's like a significant moment. And can I call out Sebastian Vettel, who ran three hours in his first seven marathon. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with myself and Damien. Please, like almost everyone that listens to High Performance doesn't subscribe. Please, wherever you're watching this or listening to this, please subscribe to High Performance. It makes such a difference to our channel. It'll take you two seconds to hit subscribe. And we love giving you this content for free. all we ask is that you hit that subscribe button or maybe tell a friend about our show you can check out Oscar Piastri right now um across youtube or apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and next week Damien Bjorn Mansvork would you um you've already recorded the conversation with Bjorn just a couple of minutes about who he is what he's done and one thing from

50:03Jake Humphrey: the episode that you think people should listen out for oh well Bjorn Mansvork is a is a fighter pilot a Norwegian fighter pilot that is one of the brains behind the incredible rise of Bodo Glimt and if you've followed them in European competition you've seen them defeat Atletico Madrid into Milan even Manchester City earlier this year and you've wondered how a small town in the north of Norway is able to punch well above its weight Bjorn has got some of the answers to it the one thing i want to tell you about is that uh he was behind the decision that they don't talk about winning in that dressing room they don't talk about winning you'll have to listen to find out what they talk about instead but it's well well worth tuning in for i hope you'll come and join us i love that talking about winning i finally think the hearts are going to win the scottish premiership obviously we'll find out in the next few weeks but congratulations to them for their result at the weekend right Damien thank you so much you're a top guy a great friend um a brilliant co-host and I hope that you're now going to leave your hotel room and join your friends in the pub I'm going to go back to them now but uh and all those are all uh all those lovely words back to you as well Jake so thanks for thanks for chatting top man I love these episodes when you're drunk uh take care thanks a lot

51:30Bye.