When does dedication become obsession? With Stephen Hendry, Jill Scott, Jonny Wilkinson and Brent Hoberman

0:00Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the High Performance Podcast Podcast. And we know that you can't always spare an hour or sometimes a bit more than that to hear one of our long form episodes. But what we actually love to do is regularly look back on previous guests who've joined us and try and find a common theme. And Damien's with me as always. Hey, Damien. Hi, Jake. He's actually in a hotel room in Barcelona. His life is clearly far more glamorous than mine. I'm in a cold room in Norfolk. um what we thought damien was that we would just look at some of the advice or some of the messages from our guests over the past year about getting work-life balance correct making sure that like there's not too high a price for success and i think let's just be really clear right with the people that are listening to this high performance is not a podcast it's not a brand it's not it's not a source of information that says work yourself to the bone we're not really hot on this whole hustle culture you see we're not we're trying our very best not to put out horrible kind of toxic messages we don't always get it right but we do try to get it right where we can ours is about i guess it's about finding the thing that works for you and if it's right for one person it doesn't mean that it's right for you and you shouldn't feel that just because something suits someone else in society and it doesn't suit you you're somehow failing or you're somehow struggling or you're somehow less worthy because you don't do the things that other people do.

1:17That's a really powerful point Jake I think we're not offering a formula a solution an algorithm for how people live their lives this is for everybody to work out for themselves of what works best for them and I think where we're so privileged with the podcast is that we speak to people across that spectrum from either end of the extreme and those that are in the middle people that have given everything in Stephen Gerrard's words they've gone all in for success versus those that have actually defined success as being a great parent or a partner or thought about it from a more holistic point of view and what we're not offering as you say is anybody telling anybody do this and these results will follow we're just offering perspectives and asking you to consider what works for you and what doesn't and you know like I say I don't think we always get it right I put something up just recently on LinkedIn saying how I love getting up at five o 'clock in the morning.

2:15And it got pulled apart really by people saying, kind of making out that I was making them feel less worthy because they weren't getting up at five o 'clock. Or somehow it was really sort of bad advice. It's a tricky one, isn't it? Because what I was trying to not say was, you've got to get up at five o 'clock if you want to be successful. What I was trying to say was, listen, this is what I do. And it has made a real difference for me and my life. But I suppose sometimes I get disillusioned because I sort of, I really want High Performance to be a podcast that exists in a world where we all lift each other up, help each other out, offer a bit of advice, and we all come to it with a mindset of trying to be as understanding as possible.

2:52And then sometimes it feels like we live in this world where people are so keen to be angry, so quick to try and misrepresent someone else or find a different angle. it's a tricky it's a tricky conversation to have this whole hustle type conversation I think isn't it yeah definitely because I think people want certainty they want actual answers and when somebody doesn't offer it them the discomfort of not knowing of leaving something ambiguous and saying no you have to work that out yourself can often create anger so I saw the post that you put on I remember us talking about it and what you were trying to do is say this works for me and these are the these are the steps of why it works for me but what I didn't see you do was say but you need to do this or you're a failure if you don't do it it was if somebody was to read it and go you know what getting up at five in the morning doesn't work for me that's fine as well just take it and like sometimes not having an opinion it's okay yeah it's also a position to take to go that's okay that's all right it's not for me but you know i have to check myself as well though because i we can talk about brent hoberman right should we talk about for a second he joined us quite recently didn't he and like that is one of my favorite episodes i found him a really interesting guy but i definitely did disagree with him when it came to the fact that he believes you know entrepreneurship is all in and family comes second you know i believe you can have a great life and for me anyway family is at the center of it and i actually had to remind myself during that conversation that that podcast episode isn't about me having to live the life that he's lived it's about me choosing that there are some things brent said i thought i'm going to adopt those yeah there's other things where i thought i will i fundamentally disagree with that but i think we kind of exist as a as a forum for people to cherry pick what they want don't agree with everything like what sort of person are you if you agree with absolutely everything that everyone else says you'd be constantly going this direction then that direction then this do you know what i mean you'd never get where you want to go because you'd be derailed too often by other people there's a great quote from a former miami dolphins coach called don shula that said if you don't stand for anything you fall for everything and i think it's that idea that you have to know what works for you but equally what doesn't so when we sat down with ben he he quoted the example of steve jobs and i know a lot of people lord steve jobs for what he's done and being a great visionary but we also spoke about the flaws of steve jobs of how he could be deeply unpleasant and almost sociopathic in the way that he managed people and I think what Brent wasn't doing in that example was he wasn't offering Steve Jobs as the archetype that we all need to follow he was saying there was certain aspects of Steve Jobs's work that was actually really incredible that he adopted as an entrepreneur himself and I think if we can get into that conversation again one of our previous guests Adam Grant said that we live in a world where it's almost like if you flip-flop of I used to believe this and now I believe something different.

5:45We see it as a sign of weakness, but we need to get into the position. I've actually seen it as a sign of strength that you've changed your opinion based on hearing somebody's facts, hearing a different perspective has made you rethink it. And that's actually a really good thing. Let's have a bit of a listen then. This is Brent Hoberman. Just as a reminder for you, he co-founded lastminute.com. He was also involved in co-founding made.com as well, two businesses that ended up being valued at over a billion pounds. He's an incredible entrepreneur, hugely driven. This is what he said. It's sort of dangerous to say everyone can be an entrepreneur because, actually, let alone for people's mental health, you know, you've got to be, this resilience isn't something everyone has.

6:27And people can find happy, what we want is people to be happy, right? They can find happiness in many different ways. And my wife tells me when I say to my kids, you have to be an entrepreneur, whatever, they're like, make sure they know they can be happy in lots of different other ways. It's not just that. And I think what I mean is by people being suited to be in entrepreneurship, it's this point that the obsessiveness you need to succeed is not for everyone. The best entrepreneurs, I'm sorry in this day of work-life balance, they don't have work-life balance. Work is their life and they love it.

6:59And not everybody is going to love work that much that they can give it 95 % of their whole life for a period of time. You know what, Damien, I'm totally in the opposite sort of school of thought to most people now. You know where people are constantly looking to agree with people all the time and if you disagree then you have to have a row with them or you have to cut them out of your social media feed or your life or whatever. I really like it when I hear someone say something I disagree with because it kind of makes me realise that actually I've found something there. I found my thing. I found my answer to that conundrum and my one when it comes to the comments from Brent is, my family absolutely number one I believe that you can run a successful business and still be a really present dad I think that people who go I don't have time to be with my kids I don't have time to go out for Sunday lunch with my wife oh I don't have time to sit and have a beer with my mates they are not winning in my opinion they are not winning it might work for them but that's okay there was a really good extract in the Will Smith autobiography that he co-wrote with Mark Manson who would add as a guest on, where he speaks about when he went to marriage guidance counselling with his wife and he said, he teased it up and said I've never seen my wife cry as hard as what she did after this session where the counsellor had asked him to write down the five priorities in his life in order and then they asked his wife to do it separately.

8:18And Will Smith said he came back and at the top of his priority list was himself and then it was his wife, then it was his kids and descending order whereas his wife had put the kids first, then him second and then herself third. And when Will Smith explained his reason he said that he saw himself as being the guide that was like the engine of his family that if he had he had to look after himself so he could keep providing for them and so forth and he said it was a real insight into two different perspectives and neither of them were wrong but if they carried on on those trajectories it was going to cause heartache and and anger and bitterness and I think that's what you're describing there that in Brent's world he's telling you that his priority is the business first and then the family will gain from it whereas you're saying well actually my order is slightly different and that's a brilliant thing to be able to clarify and then to almost rank your priorities in that order gives you almost a transparency in the world that people know what you stand for and they can almost predict how you're going to behave and where you're going to allocate your time energy and resources this yeah look some people might want to be number one right that's fine i like the idea of being the only one because then you're unique right that's the that's the difference just have a totally different mindset to other people it's not about being better and winning every time but then for some people it is this is stephen henry and the answer to this question blew our minds i had a girlfriend who became a wife then you have a family life changes and i always i always fought against that people say oh you're gonna get mad that's it that's the end of your career and all that's you know you have kids that's it um and i always fought against that i was i i still kept practicing determined to keep practicing the reason why there's so few people can win relentlessly is is they sacrifice even family to get to you know snooker is my life is number one that came first even before my wife my kids everything obviously they ended to detriment of a marriage and everything you know it was all about me it's very cold but it has to be that So Stephen spoke about the fact that, you know, he had issues with his marriage and the relationship with his children.

10:26And we said to him, you know, would you, now that you know the cost that winning at snooker had on your personal life, would you do it all over again? This was the answer that he gave. If you had your time again, would you win less games of snooker, be at home more and be married to your wife still and have a sort of family life? or is the winning, which we spoke about right at the beginning, the thing that you feel you were put on this earth to do, to be a winner? Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's going to be a lot of people watching this thinking, what an absolute cold son of a bitch. But that's, yeah, that's what I was putting.

11:01I was putting this earth to win snooker match, to win world titles and be as dedicated as I was to be the best. And yeah, given the same decisions, I'd make the same decisions again. Now that blew our minds. and then Damien and I asked him his three non-negotiables. Have a listen to his first one. Three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you have to buy into. Selfishness. Right, so here, let's have a conversation, right, Damien? I was only speaking about this with the guys at the Champions League match I was covering the other day. I actually, you know, they, I think it was Rio actually that said he doesn't think that he would have been as successful if he hadn't have been as selfish when he was a footballer.

11:42yeah um and then joe cole said you know what i wouldn't have been as good at football if i'd have enjoyed it more i had to focus on being good rather than enjoying what i went through and if i i would have loved to have enjoyed it more but then i wouldn't have achieved so much so there is this really interesting conversation here about getting to the very top of the mountain it does have its victims and it's quite incredible of stephen henry to talk in the way that he did on our podcast isn't it i thought it was amazing i i remember being shocked that somebody was just so open and transparent with us but actually really admiring his bravery because i think all of us listening to this can think of people that talk a good game and don't necessarily back it up they know that the more prudent response that stephen could have given was to say oh of course i wish i was still with my wife and kids and that would be what society would almost expect from him but to be that cold eyed to go no I wouldn't I knew what I was doing and I know and I don't regret the decision that I made it's something that you don't have to agree with it but you can admire the clarity and the bravery to to be able to share that and it's interesting that you say Rio's reaction to it because that was similar to when the special forces uh listen to the podcast they told us that that Stephen Hendry episode was one of their own favorites because they felt that he was articulating the mindset that they have to have to be able to go into some of the most dangerous territories in the world and do the job they do selfishness needs to be at the front and center of it so again it's a great one of what we're saying of if it challenges us make you think a little bit about am i role model it so if i say i'm generous am i really generous am i generous in every situation there's certain people i'm generous to and certain situations i'm not and being clear about that allows us to feel that we're acting in congruity with who we say we are and we all know that we like our leaders we like people around us to be people we can rely on and that basically is do what you say you'll do and just don't be angry like if someone like Stephen Hendry thinks like Stephen Hendry you know it worked for him he needed it if you know I'm sure his wife and children might think differently but I think you know we have to accept that people have different approaches to life right it's just that is society that is the world and if we were all the same there wouldn't be anything like as interesting as it is but there's an interesting exercise there if people are listening to this maybe do this with the people that are closest to you whether it's your partner or you've got children or whether it's friends around you be really clear about what your behaviors are and ask them for theirs as well it gives you that clarity to go oh so again i'll use the example of adam grant when we had him on and he said that he lived in that state of guilt about his friendships that he didn't invest as much time in his friendships as he thought he should do and yet when he went and spoke to his close friendship group they went nah if we see you once a year we're happy with that as long as that once a year meeting that we have is a quality time that we spend with each other and when that when did we really clear about to be a friend is about even if it's just catching up once a year and making time for each other that's enough that allowed them all to then not carry that guilt of of unmet expectations around and actually enjoy the moments when they did spend it in each other's company yeah i think it's really nice actually and i think there's another bit of learning from this as well which is like you're not always right i remember ricky gervais he was talking he was asked by someone you know how how do you feel um about people who are offended by your comedy he said well i mean his answer was well just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right and i think there's there's a point there like if you don't agree with something that someone says on the podcast or it or it really like annoys and angers you well consider the fact that maybe you're not right and maybe they are you know that's that's a moment of potential growth for you which i think is also really valuable for people or even just take away right and wrong like just remove those kind of pejorative statements and just go it it's somebody's position and i don't have to label it yeah and you know mine's my position and neither of us is right neither of us is wrong we just come in at it from different positions.

15:54Let's hear from a couple more people who have sort of been in this this space on high performance who would you like to hear from Damien? I really like the conversation that we had with Jill Scott on this because she spoke to us around the fact that she was obsessed from being a young girl growing up in the northeast and loving football and sort of got then heading off into what was then still an amateur game and in the foothills of professionalism. She said it It was only years later when she realised that the things that she took for granted, like not having a cup of tea at a certain time of night or making decisions to not go to a party because she needed to focus on the game coming up, she realised that that actually wasn't the norm.

16:38And she realised that going after her obsession didn't leave her being as well-rounded as she thought she was. That was a really interesting chat that we had. You need to be obsessed. In order to be successful, you need to be obsessed. And I think now that I've retired, I realised how obsessed that I was. So, for example, you're watching Netflix, it hit 10 o 'clock and you really want to watch that next episode. But I knew I had to go to bed because I had training the next day. I'd have a cup of tea at 8 o 'clock, it hit 9, 10, oh, I want another one. No, you shouldn't. It's a lot of caffeine, might keep you awake, you've got training tomorrow.

17:18and I think when I retired I remember staying up till half 11 and having two cups of tea and I was like oh my god I'm being a rebel but I did just become completely obsessed with it and I think in them early days there was a lot of moments where I was like how can football fit into life I was traveling from Sunderland to Liverpool I was still seeing my friends I was going out with college and stuff like that but then as the years went on it was like how does life fit into football and you do end up missing like a lot of things i missed family weddings christenings i never really could go to friends birthday parties nothing basically football became my obsession my life and i think that just gradually happened i like this thing about being obsessed you know i am i'm a big fan of the stoics as you know we had ryan holiday on the podcast people if you've not heard the ryan holiday episode search for it right now he was brilliant and he wrote a book damien called discipline is destiny and i think this plays nicely into what you know jill was talking about what Steven Gerrard spoke about on the podcast, what loads of others have spoken about as well.

18:19This idea of discipline. And I think that that's an area where we do have to be, I think, really clear with people. It's like, if you want to make a really big change in life, discipline is often the thing that can be the difference between the thing that you really want happening and the thing that you really want not necessarily coming off. It's underappreciated. It's probably under discussed as well. But the power of discipline is really quite something. I think that's what gets people from where they are to where they want to be more often than not it's like the drumbeat in the background of any high performance is the fact that you show up every day even when you don't feel like it the fact that you your emotions almost get uncoupled from the fact that i this is just what i do and this is when i do it i think yeah you're right that it's not glamorous it's not sexy it's not high profile and i think sometimes in our search for marginal gains the idea of looking for that one percent that makes us different i think sometimes from the gate the fact that 99 of it is the consistency of showing up and just doing the basics every day and i think that we also have to remind ourselves of the cost of temptation or of not doing it i think once people understand that actually indulging or doing that thing that they think they're really going to love might actually be worse than resisting i think the urge begins to lose its appeal well You're really good on this, aren't you?

19:36Like I remember you, like, what's that analogy that you told me about where, when you've got a phone call to do, the conversation you have in your head that you might not be looking forward to the phone call, but how you square that circle. So for a long time, I was a procrastinator. I would never do things that I didn't want to do because I thought it'd be too painful. And it's only when you actually do that thing that you realise the real pain is the suffering in advance. It's the thinking about it. It's the fearing it. It's the putting it off. it's they're not doing it. And then actually, you realize that self-control actually becomes the real pleasure.

20:10Like I'm 44 and not in the very best of shape and my bones creak and everything else, but I'm trying to lose a bit of weight, right? And the real joy at the moment is just proving to myself that I can do it. It's like, can you just be disciplined? Can I be disciplined, right, for three months? Can I stick to a really rigid, really strict diet for three months? And actually the pleasure that I would get from eating five bags of crisps in the evening when I'm a bit peckish or letting myself down I'm actually getting more pleasure now from getting to the end of the day and going do you know what I demonstrated real self-control which is great and I think discipline was it Abraham Lincoln that said discipline is choosing between what you want now and what you want most yes it was yeah and I think it's a lovely way of looking at it what do you really want if you really want that thing then right now be disciplined and you will get there.

21:00I think it's a nice way to think. And if you haven't heard the conversation with Ryan Holiday, I can't, I can't tell you how much, I mean, I was so excited that day to chat to him, wasn't I? Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that he sort of came to us, didn't he, from his studio? And what I was really impressed about was his commitment of getting his book titles tattooed on himself. But I just thought I was brilliant because he had discipline, his destiny on his right arm didn't he and he had the obstacle is the way on his left arm which you know these are messages that this is a guy who literally lives the messages that he's writing about i would like to pick up on a final conversation it might be our most listened to episode it was certainly one that sort of really changed the game for us when we welcomed johnny wilkinson onto high performance we've spoken to johnny on two occasions um and this is what he discussed with us when it comes to sacrifice and happiness and his new perspective.

21:56On a Saturday afternoon, for the majority of the time, between half two and four o 'clock, I was in that state. That's why I was able to do what I did. The thing was, is I just created an idea, as most people do, that that state is revealed or earned through great suffering and sacrifice. So there seems to be this deep understanding, which I've explored and experienced otherwise since that by suffering and stressing and fighting you somehow end up in a joyful flowing state whereas my understanding my own experience of it tended to be that by spending my time suffering stressing and sacrificing what I did was create stronger habits of suffering stressing and sacrificing it's a bit like the whole kind of you know when I grow up when I get my car when I get my promotion when I get my family when I get my big house when I get to retirement that's when my joy is going to hit me when I've got enough money but then even when you've got the boat in the in the yeah in the in the sunny port you're still suffering and sweating I still maintain you know Damien that someone like Johnny had to be like Johnny was when he was an international rugby player and I think it's great that he realizes that there is so much more to his life now yes I agree and I think there was parallels with him with Dylan Hartley when we had him on because Dylan spoke in a very similar way about the sort of struggle that he went through you know he told us that that great story about he trained on Christmas Day you know and that was very much like Johnny having to do the extras that nobody else was doing because it gave him that sense of confidence that he'd gone to places that his opponents weren't prepared to which allowed him to go and play with that freedom so I think you're right that so often that that idea of struggle is almost what success requires can be really helpful for a lot of people I've heard Steve Redgrave speak about that idea that he trained to collapse when he was in the boat because he knew that he could then live with that pain and his opponents wouldn't be able to do it when it got into the final straits of a gold medal race sometimes that that does give an awful lot of confidence to performers to believe that that's where it goes but like Johnny tells us that that doesn't actually lead to a long-term happiness in life when you know he's now a father he's a partner he's pursuing other avenues in his life he realized that he also had to be mentally flexible enough to understand that that way worked for a while but it wasn't a long-term sustainable approach for him I love hearing back these old episodes you know it just reminds me of what an absolute pleasure it is to sit and have these conversations and we're only pulling out small little snippets but you know those conversations come on for an hour or more and the whole thing is is fascinating isn't it yeah and again the thing that I always feel so proud of when I tell people is it's free for you to go and access this isn't something that that you need to go and pay for these are like some of the world's greatest achievers just sharing the tips the techniques and the lessons that they've learned for free and you know if people are listening to this and want to go and exploring the archive go and listen to Dylan Hartley go and listen to Ryan Holiday go and listen to Jill Scott these are all out there for you to just go and listen to in your own time in your own space I love it um Damien thank you so much mate thanks i really enjoyed that conversation yeah i always find it really helpful for us as well that i think it's important for people to understand this that we don't have the answers we're searching as much as they are and i think these conversations often help me make sense of it yeah absolutely and look you know we we certainly don't have all the answers you know maybe the worst will happen maybe it won't but until that time happens or that time comes the the only thing the only bit of advice that we can offer you is just to look forward with positivity You know, we find that the people we speak to on the podcast, optimism and positivity are the two most important traits.

25:57And also, I think a lot of these people have learned to be indifferent to the things that make no difference. They're not wrapping their lives up with anger about what other people are up to, other people's successes, other people's failures. You know, they realize that their own failure and the things that they lack are actually the things that educate them, the things that cleanse them, the things that teach them stuff. You know, because life is short, right? if you forget the past neglect the present and fear the future I love that then you're in trouble that was a Seneca quote life is short and anxious for those who forget the past neglect the present and fear the future so if we're going to you didn't need to mention the Seneca bit Jake I was impressed I'm not claiming that as my own I am not claiming that as my own Damien appreciate that mate thanks mate loved it