When Sport Crosses the Line (ft. James Witts, Author of DOPE)

0:02Damian. Jake. Well here we go with another episode of High Performance and this month it's the Enhanced Games and so we thought we would have a bit of a conversation about I guess doping in sport but with the umbrella view of what happens in life where you start out in your career regardless whether it's sport or something else with a really kind of fixed set of rules that you want to operate by and then what happens to your moral compass as your career progresses that means those things get impacted and we've got a really cool guest we're about to hear from right yeah so you used the phrase there j the moral compass i think that's really what this this episode is about about how how do you keep your moral compass pointing to a true north in a world that will constantly try and take you off course and i was lucky enough to speak to james witts he's a is a brilliant journalist that's written a book that comes out called Dope and it's about the culture that surrounds elite sport where young athletes often get tempted to look for shortcodes, look for hacks, look for a quick route to the top that gets them onto that podium but it also involves injecting or imbibing different substances that are illegal and I wanted to talk around how can you keep your moral compass true.

1:18Great, well we'll hear from James in just a couple of moments but I think How about we start the episode by delving into some of the previous guests who've joined us who have had a clear moral compass, but actually it's impacted their careers? Yeah. So again, this is the thing that like, how do you be a patient man in an impatient world? How do you be a clean athlete in a world where you know other athletes are doping? That's not a free decision to make. I mean, it was a conversation we had with Usain Bolt, if you remember when we sat down with him. We asked him about, in the world that he operates, so many elite sprinters he's competed against have failed doping tests.

1:55And what was his advice for any young athlete that thought that that was a path to tread? It's worth listening to what he told us. I can never understand why, you know what I mean? A lot of people don't want to wait their time, I think, because I personally feel that, yo, I got a talent. God gave me a God-given talent. And I think if you work on your talent and you're really dedicated and figure out how can I get better. And I think a lot of people didn't take the time out to figure out what did I do wrong or what can I do better. You know what I mean? To get to the level. Because that's what I did.

2:42Because I struggled throughout the years to get to where I'm at. But I figured it out. like oh this is what I need to do this is what is going to get me better and I think a lot of times that a lot of athletes the work is so hard because it's not easy it's very intense you know I mean and as I said it's full of injuries at times and some people just don't want to put the work in so it's it's it's tough and sometimes the mental area that really drives you to go you know what let me try this instead of doing the work. See, one of the challenges here, Damien, is that we exist in a world now where there are shortcuts for other areas of life.

3:23You know, people are constantly looking on social media and seeing success coming easy to other people. Everybody is sharing perfection rather than the struggles in life. So I can understand how, for all of us listening to this episode, we're looking for shortcuts. You know, what's the most common question you and I get asked? What's the one thing that links all of your guests on high performance. And people are asking that question because they think there's a shortcut to it. And I guess I'm reminded of the time when we were on tour and we were in Manchester and we spoke to the absolutely hilarious Russell Kane, who said that people would come up to him and go, oh, I really want to be a comedian.

3:57Can I be on your ticket for the next gig and maybe just be on your undercard and be your warm-up guy? And he would say to them, listen, you know when you see someone with massive muscles, right? You don't just assume that they got them easily, or you don't ask if you can have their muscles. You get in the gym and you do the work. And he would always remind those people that he's had to perform to empty clubs for 25 years with no one laughing to get where he is now. And I think it's a real challenge, particularly for young people growing up in this comparison culture, that they only see other people's success.

4:29And of course, there are also lots of people willing to sell you a shortcut. There are grifters everywhere telling you that they have the secret to doing it quicker, easier, faster, cheaper than everybody else. So in many ways, the cards are stacked against people who are patient, people who do the right thing, people who have those strong morals. Yeah, massively. Well, so as you'll hear in the interview with James, he talks about how the Enhanced Games is now selling kits that you can buy online, anybody can do it, that contain the substances that the athletes in the games are taking so you can get a similar physique to those athletes out there.

5:05It's literally selling you this get fit quick message that is at the heart of so much of our society. People thinking that you can become a multimillionaire overnight, you write best sweat sellers in a couple of months, that everything comes to you easy when we know, because 400 guests have told us that what comes easy doesn't last, what lasts doesn't necessarily come easy. and I think sometimes going back to your first principles of going, well, actually, I'm going to be patient. I'm going to enjoy learning my craft rather than just being fixated on the outcomes are so key. What about, though, people who are listening to this and they're listening to it because they've spent years trying to get to a place they want to get to and they haven't got to that place and they actually know that there is a shortcut they can take.

5:55There is a quick route. There is the real-world equivalent of juicing. What do we say to those people? Well, again, this is where I think you have to fall back on your own values. This is the stuff that says, am I able to wake up in the morning and look at myself in the mirror knowing what I'm going to do? And more importantly, when I put my head on the pillow at night, can I reflect on how I've behaved and still feel that I've been congruent to my values? I think the conversation with James, and people really encourage him to tune in and listen to it. when we speak to him about how do you stay hopeful having sort of immersed yourself in this world of cheats and people sort of blurring the lines the only real answer that he offers us is that like education now that's a bit of a cliche because we often say that education is the key to to improving all situations but the essence of it is is educating people about their values what's important to them how they want to be remembered we talk about there's plenty of athletes that have subsequently been found out later on and the shame the stigma that sticks to them they talk about how it just wasn't worth it there's an interview with an Ironman champion who James went and interviewed for his book who admitted he was tempted by that decision of chasing shortcuts because he thought others were doing it and then when he got caught he just held his hands up he made no excuses he didn't claim he'd been eating an excess of eggs he just said no no I was taking EPO because I wanted to get to that number one spot on the podium.

7:27And he talks about the, like, the social cost of that, the shame, the stigma that sticks to him long afterwards. That, like, there's no shortcut that comes for free. Well, we will hear from him in just a moment. Before we do, I want to go back into the archives one final time and hear from Michael Johnson. This is a great reminder to everyone that even if you decide that actually the shortcut is the thing that you want to take. There may well be other victims along the way. This is what Michael Johnson told us when he decided to give back one of his medals. Take a listen. I had always been outspoken about doping in our sport and still am and just didn't want to have my name associated with that medal.

8:12So yeah, I gave it back. Hard decision? It wasn't a hard decision. I gave it back knowing that this is the right thing to do. I don't want to have anything to do with it. A little bit harder, I guess, in the sense that I knew that they were going to come after that medal. And I knew that the U.S. Olympic Committee was going to fight it. And they would have had a better chance fighting it if I was there, you know, with them on that fight. And so when I chose not to go in that fight, that meant the other two relay members on there who probably wanted to fight it, probably weren't going to have a very good chance at that point.

8:51But it was not that hard for me. It was disappointing. I was very angry for a while. Because, yeah, now I'm a four-time Olympic gold medalist, not a five-time Olympic gold medalist. Do no fault of my own. And I think that's really interesting, isn't it? Because the athlete in question thought that he was doing this almost in a silo. He was deciding that he was going to dope for his own success in his competition. And as Michael Johnson reveals there, when you're in a relay, it's a team sport. And the devastation that that created actually in America for both Michael, but also for the athlete who doped.

9:30I mean, it was really, really, really dark. Yeah, but again, there's an interesting sort of dynamic that I think is worthy of us exploring here. Like on the podcast, we often try and shine a light in the shadows rather than just necessarily fall into this binary way of if you're doping, you're bad, and if you do it clean, you're good. I think when we understand the culture that so many people will often find themselves in, whether it's the comparison culture of convincing yourself that everyone else is on this, that for many years it sounds like elite cycling had this sense of omerta, that everybody is cheating, so if you're not going to join them, they're only going to beat you.

10:11some people it's almost like their identity gets too tightly wrapped up in the sense of being an athlete or being a winner and therefore you try and prolong your career or you try and find those little shortcuts those little hacks to why you do it sometimes it's coaches sometimes it's the adults in your life that turn a blind eye to it or facilitate it i think the thing about it is it's like an ecosystem. There's no one reason why people don't, but there's lots of different factors. And I think if we can come at it from a place of understanding and empathy, you can help people make better decisions.

10:49Okay, well, shall we hear from James Witt, the author of the book Dope? I'd love to. And the book's out now, if anybody wants to explore it a little bit deeper, but I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Excellent. Here he is, James Witt, talking to Damien. Ladies and gentlemen, introducing the Mike's Hard Lemonade Lemons! I'm Sonny, a powerhouse of full-body bite. I'm Tina, ready to bring the zesty za-za-zing. I'm k-k-k-cal, fresher than a cold plunge. Three unique characters, one unmatched flavor. Mike's Hard Lemonade, made with real character. Please drink responsibly. Mike's Hard Lemonade Company, Chicago, Illinois.

11:34Premium malt beverage with flavors.

11:39James, it's a pleasure to have you with us here. And I absolutely loved your new book. I'm interested, what surprised you the most in the writing of it? That's a very good question, Damien. Thank you very much for inviting me on, by the way. It's a privilege and very much appreciated. I mean, surprise, I guess one of the standout was I started early of sort of what the potential problem or perceived problem of taking performance drugs in sport is, what are the figures around this, what research, what studies have been undertaken. And the figure ranges wildly from up to 50 % of one study in like 2011.

12:19I think they covered it at the World Athletics Champs. I think it was called the Turbingen study of athletes who'd filled in the survey had reported taking a prohibited substance in the previous 12 months. So that was a bit of a shock when you compare that to the amount of tests that come back positive from WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, which I think the adverse analytical findings they have is about 0.7%. And that really is testing. you know something is showing up in the blood or urine that is on their prohibited list so i guess that was one of the biggest surprises that was early on of like where there's a real disconnect there between okay how many people are being caught or testing positive to maybe some of the the numbers of that are coming out of people saying what they you know they are actually crossing the line but they're not being caught yeah and was it specific sports and whether where this disconnect was highest?

13:19I mean, it was interesting across the sport because my background, Damien, is I do a lot of writing and road cycling. And anyone who has followed sport, really, is probably aware of the naughty Mr. Lance Armstrong. But you had the Fistina affair, the late 90s, where I think it was the Soigneur-Willie Vaut, one of the teams, basically he was stopped at, I think it was on the ferry, his customs. I think the race started in Dublin that year. And they basically checked his boot, and he basically had a medical cabinet in there. You had vials and fields of stuff, EPO, which is the blood booster. So that was my background in sport.

14:00I know cycling's historically had an issue. I know that there is far fewer positive tests in cycling now, sort of high-profile-wise. So in that respect, I sort of had a background. Okay, they're cycling, but what about, like you said, the other sports? Obviously, football is huge. You have cricket, you have rugby. And, yeah, there was a sort of – it's very hard to get specific figures, Damien, to me, as there's so much sort of misinformation out there. But what was clear is that the funding that some of these sports are throwing into the anti-doping varies wildly. So in cycling now, the international governing body put 17 % of their budget towards anti-doping.

14:45Now, it was a report, I think it was by the Times, where they got the information of other sports and I think football, like from the Premier League actually towards anti-doping to the United Kingdom anti-doping, was basically zero, whereas the FA was 0.3 % of their budget. It's not to say footballers aren't being tested, but the Premier League are very much, this is the FA's domain. And rugby and cricket, they were similarly low levels of funding for the United Kingdom anti-doping to actually test athletes. So that was probably more, that was an explicit sort of find of like, well, how seriously are these sports taking doping and anti-doping?

15:33because there is an issue of that this whole you know as i cover in the book that you have the same people who are promoting the sport as policing the sport yeah so naturally you've got a disconnect there you know if you've got people on the international olympic committee board who are also pretty high up at the world anti-doping agency they could be the most honest people in the world but obviously perception wise it's not a good look yeah no sport wants a doping case because it's really just not good for the image. So, yeah, I think the funding issue of disparity was quite a stark one. Wow.

16:09Okay. Because your book reminded me of, I remember reading many years ago a book by Tyler Hamilton, the cyclist, who revealed that he had been doping. And that book was the first time I'd had real empathy with somebody that doped. He spoke about how, I think he was a painter and decorator from Colorado when he spoke about this panayagua, that like bread and water, he cycled in the sort of European tour clean and was coming bottom and was being risked having his funding cut and having to go back to being a painter and decorator and then having the opportunity to dope meant that he got to carry on living his dream.

16:52And I think what your book shows, James, is that doping's rarely just about one bad decision. It seems to be a mix of pressure, ambition, culture, opportunity when have you seen the desire to win tips over into crossing this ethical line well i did speak to a chap uh chap called rocco i forget his surname now sorry rocco but over at oxford brooks university and he looked into this issue well why do athletes dope which on a basic level it seems obvious doesn't it where you want to go sort of higher faster stronger you know you want to get to the finish line quicker but it is more nuanced and more complicated than that as like you said as tyler's book sort of really revealingly showed i mean wider of so you've always got categories of like vulnerable populations one of them is injury so if you've got an athlete coming back from injury they've shown that actually your commercial value if you're injured the longer you're off the longer you spell on the sidelines the lower your commercial value and obviously all the repercussions that has for an athlete yeah so that is a vulnerable area uh older athletes so if you've tipped over 30 and it's not necessarily performance enhancing i think they were categorized it was almost performance continuing you know you're reaching you know you can see the end of the career you know it's on the horizon and i guess your identity is so wrapped up in competition in elite sport in schedules and following these itineraries actually to see the end of that is like well that is your identity where is that going to go so that's a certainly a vulnerable sort of population um i mean just general reasons why people were dope and when people wouldn't you can have the coaching environment again going back to cycling and i'm sure um tyler would have mentioned it in his book about the omerta so the culture of the sport of like the omerta is basically keeping silent so everyone knew they were doing it but no one you know it was the unbroken or the unwritten code it was a famous instance one knew like where Armstrong publicly denounced somebody that had broken that or murder.

19:17Is that right? Yes, it was. And forgive me, I can't remember. It might have been Christophe Basson. I could be completely wrong there, so I apologise if so. But yeah, he absolutely, this rider was like, no, they're all taking it, I'm not. And he would basically come up to him on a race, just ride beside him and generally be quite threatening of like, what are you doing? Why are you breaking this code? We're all on it. But on the flip side, then you get, there was a writer called Graham Obrey. Now, Graham Obrey, I've spoken to him several times. Graham's a fascinating chap. I mean, he could speak to you hours upon hours.

19:56And I don't know if you remember this statement. Years ago, there was this big hour record, which was a challenge almost between Graham Obrey and Chris Boardman. So on one side, you had Chris Boardman, who was deemed like the scientist. I think he had Lotus behind him. You know, there's a lot of money spent on him, on the equipment and the science. Whereas Graham Obrey, he became famous for creating his own bike, including parts from like a dishwasher or washing machine. But they were both incredible, you know, human beings, athletes. But I remember speaking to Graham Obrey and he, again, it was a time when amateur and professionalism, you know, you're going from one to the other.

20:37and he was offered to contract with French cycling team. And basically they explicitly said, you will have to follow our regime. And he was like, well, clearly I'm not going to do that. So he never became professional. Boardman did, and that's not to say Boardman took track to school. But his values were so strong that he wasn't going to do it. And that is another thing. It's like, well, if maybe your background, and your values aren't as solid as some others. This is a big decision, isn't it? As one of the ladies at WADA said, you don't wake up wanting to take steroids. When you're eight years old and you're playing with your mates on the football pitch, you don't dream of taking EPO to run better.

21:24So something that happens on that timeline that encourages you to make that shift. And like you said, it's not as black and white as you may be led to believe. And that was part of the reasoning for the book. It's so black and white, seemingly, doping. Yeah, we present it in such binary terms that I think your book shines a light in the shadows to go, but none of this is so obviously right or wrong or good or bad. It's so subtle. Which led me to reflect, do you think sports become too reliant on the idea that testing alone is almost like the bulwark against fairness and um and and all things being equal it's yeah it's a tricky one i mean you do have you have various pillars so you have the testing side you have the education side and again i go into detail about various things you have the lead you know the legal side the intelligent side of actually that wards are trying to increase their links with like Interpol, Europa, with the law enforcement agencies to try and sort of stop it, you know, lower down or the chain.

22:43And they're looking at underground chemists and the dark web. But the problem is that it's so easy to get hold of these drugs, which makes it such a hard battle on that intelligence side. but it's also very dangerous I know a chap at Dan Burke over at USADA which is the United States anti-doping he was saying they've broken crime rings of performance enhancing drugs and they open up the material, the solutions and basically they're not steroids they're basically moldy water and people are injecting this into their bodies a lot of amateur athletes as well yeah yeah so which is is pretty horrendous sort of sort of thought isn't it of just like you've got this sort of bacteria and you're just injecting it but um so i'm going off on a tangent slightly but yeah back to the the testing i think you're right but the testing is only one part of it but the testing is also it's so hard to still catch the athletes i mean the probably one of the biggest defenses they have in the testing world is the biological passport right so i'm not sure how much you know no go on tell us more about that yeah so it's basically it's it was created to it went live should we say 2008 2009 it was 2008 in cycling 2009 in global sports basically And really, it came from, so going back years, there's a drug called EPO.

24:21So that stands for erythropoietin. Apologies if my pronunciation is not very good, but it's basically, it's a blood booster. So you produce it naturally in your body. That's what produces the red blood cells. In an endurance sport, for example, red blood cells carry oxygen. So oxygen is nectar for the endurance athlete. if you're doing the Tour de France, you know, you're burning through oxygen to keep going and going. So the more red blood cells you've got, the more oxygen, the harder you can race. So you've got it naturally, but then it was invented, I think it was the 80s, a synthetic version to treat people who were suffering from anemia.

25:01Anyway, it's a long-winded way of saying the top coaches and sports scientists picked up on this, EPO became a big problem so they created a direct test for EPO but so that still exists but the problem is once the patent ran out you suddenly instead of one EPO product you've got hundreds of them so to keep up with it they were like well we haven't got the resources to find the test for each EPO or each specific so they came up with this biological passport so instead of testing it directly what they're doing is testing it indirectly so you're looking for the markers of taking the cpo and what it is is when you take it you produce new red blood cells right so they're measuring sort of the reticular sites it's called the new red blood cells you can see a skew on your blood profile over time you also see a skew high and see a skew low because you have an off phase so once you take it it goes up then it goes down and levels out okay you're trying to once it's up you're trying to get the benefits through the training so what it is is a biological passport it's measuring against your own norm over time so if they see a skew you know if it's like september we've tested someone in mexico or these blood values you know that's higher than normal that would ring the bells of the testers who then might try and do a direct test but the problem with this biological test is some athletes might do one test a year i think wider aim for free test per athlete someone like tally bagacha in cycling who's really successful he'll be tested loads and loads and loads right so which is a strange because sometimes you're getting lower level athletes who are testing positive and it's like well how can they not be then as good as the higher level athletes who are tested loads and loads so but yeah so that's probably the main defense but probably with all these tests is that they're very expensive yeah and can I just ask you about something like the EPO like what is that worth in sort of seconds uh like on a bike what if you've got higher levels in your system what does that translate to well there have actually been studies on this which actually is unusual because getting it past the ethics committee of anything which is on the prohibited list which a healthy individual doesn't need can be tricky but i think the figure was around four percent four five percent that was from the labs but i spoke to a chap called joe papp now papp i think actually wrote with armstrong he testified against armstrong years ago yeah so joe papp he was actually suspended for taking testing positive for EPO and several other drugs.

27:55As it turns out, he then became a drug dealer as well. So he was, you know, he took that extra step and now he was, yeah, he went for it. He's fully on, but Joe said, he was great. He's very interesting, Joe. And now he's more, you know, anti-doping advocate. And he was saying EPO was the one, I think he said in the book it gave him wings shall we say and it was like he said it reckoned it helped him 10-12 % he said EPO was the one that sort of just sent you you know to another level and not necessarily on the day and this is you know one of the big sort of wins shall we say for some of these illegal drugs is the recovery you know if you're racing hard you know for example a grand tour like the jura d 'italia or tour de france where you're racing 21 hard stages in 23 days you know it's all very well racing well on day one but if you wake up on day two and like blimey i'm absolutely exhausted i don't think i'll bother today you're not going to do very well so it's that recovery of sort of crossing the finish line and then leaving the start town so yeah it does have a significant um impact on performance Wow, because that's far, far beyond the marginal gains.

29:16You hear about bringing your own mattress or having a certain pillow and what that can offer you versus rolling the dice and sort of start injecting EPO. There's no contest, is there? So what was your view then when you heard about the enhanced games? Well, yeah, I mean, that's a good question, Damien. And it was, yeah, confusing, I guess, because it just seemed so like almost dystopian idea of like, wow, this is where we've come as a society, that we are going to have a, you know, a games where these legal performance enhancers are allowed. I mean, I spoke to the founder, Dr. Aaron D'Souza, a couple of times of the enhanced games.

30:04And I mean, very charming. He's a lawyer, a very successful lawyer. And it was his idea of this like, well, let's see. We're in a world now in professional sport, aren't we, where science innovation is omnipresent at the top level. We see in football, everything's measured to within an ounce of its life, isn't it? It's sort of like the stat sport. You've got your heart rate variability. Everything is micromanaged. So it is really an extension of that. And it started off, it almost felt like a neutral libertarian viewpoint of, wow, so, okay, yeah, it's up to you as an individual what you put in your body.

30:47You know, it's not up to anyone else. But that has been tempered slightly now. There are only certain drugs that you can't do. Oh, right, okay. But based on what you were talking about there, sort of like wilder chasing down people and like the constant innovations of these sort of illegal, substances that people are doing you could argue that at least it's transparent the enhanced games you know at least they're telling you that that people are cheating or or sort of crossing that that ethical line yeah and that that was one of their strongest arguments i think it was like because they're saying well a you're you're putting it out there so it they're monitoring it you know you're gonna either having medical teams will be well recently so i don't know if the athletes are still there i think they still are so the enhanced games may the 24th i think is the end of may so it's just a day's competition now in vegas of swimming sprinting and weightlifting so you just have the free sports various disciplines in each but all the athletes who have signed up for the enhanced games i think they've been over in abu dhabi since january february right and you don't have to go on a course of performance enhancing drugs uh i can't i've I apologize I can't recall there was one athlete I think it might have been a British sprinter maybe Rhys I've forgotten his surname but I think he said he wasn't going to take performance enhancing drugs but most of them will be but they're going to be monitored by a team so you're going to have doctors there they're going to be keeping an eye on loads of different metrics so it might be okay I'm taking peptides how's my body reacting to it I'm taking testosterone so they are like you said there's an argument they're going to be the safest doped athletes who have ever performed i think part of the my skepticism i guess would come from when i first spoke to dr de souza it was very much along those lines it was like well this is all you know libertarian they're going to be safely safely monitored this is far safer than people going underground yeah but then when i spoke to again they'd added this extra strand that actually the enhanced games to a degree are almost a marketing tool now because the enhanced team are selling i don't know if it's gone live yet but these performance packs so it's going to be about 500 a month where you can sign up and you'll be able to get peptides testosterone various amateur athletes yeah for amateur athletes so i I don't know the duty of care that they'll be applying because I don't know if you then, they'll send you blood tests each month where you've got, you know, their doctors will assess how well you're doing.

33:40So I don't even know if that has been formalized yet and put out there. But yeah, so it went from this one idea to the next. And at one point they were calling it like they want to become the Amazon of enhancement. and I think this is why and I don't know how much you know about the Enhanced Games, Damien, but they've received a lot of funding from people like Donald Trump Jr. Peter Phil or Peter Thiel, I think you've pronounced his name with PayPal. So you're getting almost these tech billionaires who are coming on board and originally I was like, that's interesting what what's the appeal to them and that subsequently it's become clear that actually they're going to be trying to sell a lot of product off the back of this which and for me that is where a slight danger does come into it yeah of course you know because you're going to get a lot of youngsters who they might just see it as like well this is the norm then yeah i afford five hundred dollars a month so i'm going to go underground go on telegram yeah and then you've got that dirty antibacterial water that you've injected instead yeah absolutely and i spoke to one chap josh torrance over in bristol where i live near bristol and he worked he used to work at the bristol drug center he's still involved in that world and he was showing me his telegram and he was like yeah okay james what do you want and it was like okay we've got steroids 130 there yeah 130 quid i get you three months of whatever it is they're selling and he was saying yeah whenever you get a corporate interest involving image-enhancing drugs or performance-enhancing drugs, it's going to lead to deaths.

35:26So it sounds obviously quite dramatic, but I think it probably would. If you're encouraging people to take drugs, you know what it's like. It's like, oh, wow, okay, I ran 15 seconds, 100 meters on the prescribed dose, but what if I take a heavier dose? Yeah, yeah. Then they're saying, and that tends to be how it works, isn't it? because especially if you've got people who are looking, you can try to run faster or look. But there's something for me about, as you're talking about it, some of the stuff, if it's sprinting or if it's cycling, then you go, well, the question there is, the personal risk there is to you.

36:02You might cheat, but when you get sports like boxing, for example, where the whole purpose is to render your opponent in a position where he can't continue the fight, the idea of allowing people to get away or have these loopholes to take drugs where you can render somebody damaged as a consequence of it it really starts to turn my stomach yeah yeah absolutely and i i mean subsequently he was exonerated if that's the right word but there was the case of connor ben if you remember a few years ago where yeah he he tested positive for, I think it was Clomafine. Was it Clembuterol? Well, his wasn't Clembuterol, I don't think, but Clembuterol is a common one.

36:50I could be wrong there, Damien, you could be right, but basically he'd gone over the threshold. Right. And what was the consequence of that? For someone that would hear this and almost tune out of it, like for what he tested positive for, what would that mean in terms of for his ability as a fighter? well i guess on a real basic level probably just stronger so a lot of these as an aside some of these drugs like you said clenbuterol clenbuterol is a very common drug that has been cited in contamination cases yeah because clenbuterol is used in the black market in south america in the cattle industry to create uh greater yields of meat right so yeah so what's happening is say clenbuterol there's been many many cases where now clenbuterol they have done studies um and there's one in the book i think it was only four weeks on clenbuterol which is basically a growth hormone and the athletes the subjects taking it their their strength and muscle mass increased significantly just over a four-week period so you can see its benefits for many sports including boxing yeah but then there is this slight loophole if clombuteral is in the um yeah like i said the meat system basically in some countries it's illegal but that hasn't stopped known countries in for example south america it's also in the far east a lot of athletes if they go to the far east won't eat meat because there's just there's stuff in the meat that will show up on the prohibited list.

38:27So, but going back to the Connor Ben case, he had sort of cited that he'd come up for this prohibited substance, which makes him stronger, more dangerous, like you said. And they actually sort of let him off because if you had a significant amount of eggs, it could tip over the fresh oat. I think it was a very, you know, it was over 20 eggs in a day or something, or over 30, so it was a high number. of eggs but as we know you know athletes do have a lot of eggs but yeah going back to the danger aspect i know chris eubank senior yeah he was he was like he didn't want his son to fight you know i think ben at one point he was like well no this is dangerous if you're if you're basically you're taking drugs you're trying to turn yourself into a superhuman aren't you and like you said if you're running that doesn't really harm anyone it might professionally um and you know you're across the ethical line but when it comes to boxing yeah that's when it can become extremely extremely dangerous the question that sort of jumps out for me james and i'm listening to this is have you reached a point where the the biggest danger for sport isn't in the shadows it's almost like this this normalization of winning at all costs yeah absolutely and i think that is also now seen through a lens where life certainly in the western world is just seen through far more of like a pharmaceutical lens.

39:54People are having Botox injections. It's becoming part of life. And I think this is where the enhanced games are coming in. You won't be able to jump off this sort of train now. It's to mix metaphors, the genies out the bottle. And I think it's all tied in the longevity movement. Again, going back to these tech billionaires, I think that's becoming more and more explicit as like trying to live longer and healthier and i think that's i don't know on one hand i feel there is a concern there that actually what will enhance games do will it you know will it be like a free for all i don't think it'll ever reach that stage and i think ultimately it might just become down to you know the ethics and looking at again youngsters you know if you're a parent do you really want you know your your child to have posters of you know a hundred meter runner on the wall who has openly taken drugs you know they're on the podium with their doctor it doesn't quite sit right I don't think I mean who knows in 50 years if it continues with the longevity movement and the impact of drugs on society then this might seem such an archaic conversation and they're like why on earth did we not take drugs it's on the flip side and it's been argued by many physicians before certainly in the 50s and 60s i think of taking steroids is safer or you might be able to recover better because actually being an elite athlete is actually quite an unhealthy profession yeah you know if you're especially in some of these sports where you're training 30 you know upwards of 30 hours a week you're really battering your body beyond what is probably human you know it's quite unusual to train that much If something's been a bit off in the bedroom, you're definitely not alone.

41:47And a lot of guys put off doing anything about it for longer than they need to. With HIMSS, it's easy to take action. Everything's fully handled online. No awkward appointments. No pharmacy queues. You fill out a quick online intake and a licensed healthcare provider will see if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your treatment's delivered in a discreet package. This includes Sildenafil, generic for Viagra, available through HIMSS, up to 95 % less than the brand name. And if that's not the right fit, there are other options available so you can find what works best for you. To get simple online access to personalised affordable care for ED, hair loss, weight loss and more, visit hymns.com slash performance.

42:21That's hymns.com slash performance for your free online visit. hymns.com slash performance. Prescription required. See website for details and important safety information. Sildenafil is the generic version of Viagra. Viagra is a registered trademark of Viatris Specialty LLC. Hymns is not affiliated with or endorsed by Viatris. What if the real question isn't where you're going, but the adventures you experience along the way? It's time to set your sights higher. On peaks still to be climbed, rivers still to be crossed, and greater dreams to pursue. It's time to embrace the impossible with Defender.

42:51A family of vehicles built around capability, durability, tested on some of the most difficult terrain, Defender defines tough luxury. And I should know, I've driven one for the past three years. I have the Defender 130, but from the compact confidence of the Defender 90 to the versatility of the 110, Through to mine, the Defender 130 with seating for up to eight, there's endless potential. You feel it in the details as well, the rugged body design, the robust materials, all working together so you can head out with confidence. And inside, ClearSight technology helps you see the world around you in a new way, while the PV Pro keeps your navigation routes and playlists flowing seamlessly as you go.

43:27And with up to 89 cubic feet of cargo space, there's room for everything you need on your journey. Explore the full Defender lineup at LandRoverUSA.com. I don't know about you, but I really love keeping my money where I can actually see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless companies seem to like hanging on to my money for me. For years, I was overpaying for wireless simply because it's what I used to do. I didn't really question the high monthly bill, the extra fees, or those free perks that somehow end up costing me. Eventually, I realized it didn't make sense, so I switched to Mint Mobile.

43:58Most people just accept overpaying for their phone bill, but you don't have to thanks to Mint Mobile. With premium wireless plans starting at just 15 bucks a month, you still get high-speed data and limited talk and text all on the nation's largest 5G network. Honestly, the wireless service is just as good as the traditional big carriers. It's easy to switch too. Keep your phone, your number, and get set up in minutes with eSIM. No contracts, no hassle. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash HPP. That's mintmobile.com slash HPP. Upfront payment of$45 for three months.

44:31five gigabyte plan required equipment to$15 a month new customer offer for first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details so so let's try and twist it to a more hope like a more hopeful lens in in your book can you tell us like the human cost that you saw for both the cheater and the clean athlete yeah but there was i guess the starkest example was um i've got a there's a chapter on mental health and i spoke to an ironman athlete called colin chartier so ironman if listeners aren't really aware it's a triathlon so swim bike run but you swim 3.8 kilometers you cycle over 180 kilometers and then you run a marathon so in itself it's an extreme sport now chartier was professional and he'd had a really good season but he he wanted as he said to me in the interview he always wanted something now so even if he was successful if he could be more successful you know he wants it now so that's when he said he made the decision two or three novembers ago to start taking epo and um it was only four or five months later i think he was over in girona on a training camp and he got the doping officers came along tested him and he tested positive for EPO.

45:56Now, unlike the many, many other athletes who have been caught taking EPO, he put his hands up immediately and said, yeah, I took EPO. And as he said to me, he's like, I'm not blaming that on a burrito, like some other cases, again, go back to the contamination cases. So he was like, yeah, it was a fair cop. But his case, I thought, was really interesting. And again, I guess how much you believe him or not, I mean, he's been shown that he's dope, so he's cheated but there was also no reason now he's put his hands up to sort of lie he was sort of saying just his personality was he said he got really messed up his identity in triathlon and iron man he he said you know when he was younger he was sort of homeschooled and he just felt he was always an outsider a bit of a loner right and he interestingly he was saying for him his actually when he looks back his biggest training effect was actually training with others you know he'd go cycling with them he said he was dangerous when he was on his own because he basically he felt he had demons in his head so he wasn't sure what he would do with himself so actually he had a hard period but now he says he's happier than he's ever been in a way he's pleased he did take EPO because he's disentangled himself from his identity which he perceived as very unhealthy but then that led me to there was a Kenyan study and I spoke to the author who'd spoken to Kenyan athletes who had been banned for taking drugs yeah and um yeah he was saying they were like suicidal thoughts you know were common amongst these athletes because he said in Kenya especially you know that obviously the the athletes the runners are sort of idolized you know and and yeah he said they were really hard interviews he said they would take two or three hours and he would have to sort of he would go all around Kenya to speak to them because he said it wouldn't work if he was doing like me and you now it's just like right tell me about your EPO experience he's like no you needed to get to know them you really need to sit down with them get to know the family and then they would say well what's happened to them since being shunned by society and i again going back to earlier doping is you know it's almost seen as like they were murdered so black and white yeah and actually there's so nuances you know i think it was david helman the chair of the athletics integrity unit had said you know it shouldn't be just the athlete to a band you know you can have 20 people implicitly or or explicitly applying pressure to a young athlete you know some of these athletes might only be 20 you know that's nothing is it really you you might think you're mature you're not you're still growing they might be putting pressure on them thinking well you need to earn money because you're going to pay for your family so it wasn't like oh wow no they're the devil incarnate they've just decided to do that there could be a collective pressure on this ultimately young person to take these illegal good performance in drugs because it would help out a lot of people so what do so what do you think we could do then in the culture around these athletes because you know as an athlete yourself you're a risk taker you're putting yourself in the arena so i can see a lot of the arguments for why if you can extend your career if it makes that 12 difference you described that epo can give you i can see why as an athlete you'd be seduced but for those of us that are that are not on that starting line but around these young people there is often young people what do you think the cultural changes that we could all contribute to could start to shift the dial on this oh that's a good big question that damien i mean education is obviously it's bandied about obviously education you'll improve everything yeah i guess it has got to start with that i know there are certainly campaigns at a more you know the wilder level of the youngsters are just really explaining why actually taking performance enhancing drugs are bad you know ethically so that it's just not cricket as they would say isn't it i know that certainly usada when i spoke to the chap at the united states anti-dominant you see dan burke's the intelligence they're trying to link up with like TikTok, Instagram, just trying to run campaigns.

50:24Because the problem is like TikTok, if you like search steroids, you know, you get so many sort of ads coming up or peptides. And I think this is the concern. And I guess like a lot of the problems these days, that's where I guess these bigger tech outfits, you'd hope there'd be some responsibility. You can't just have carte blanche to sort of like say, well that takes steroids and x and y so there's an educational side on that aspect i think that the slight concern as well in the book was like you know doping does happen at the amateur level as well and and i think this is where it's really hard it's like well what do you do to sort of you know stop the rising tide of these cases because like in amateur sport it's like why are you taking drugs there's not the financial incentive you know you're not going to secure your latest mid-season holiday in Abu Dhabi in amateur sport and I think one of the people I spoke to is like saying just on a basic level yes it's it's ego and pride you know it's just that sort of it's such a driver isn't it or great drivers of like competition of being the best and certain sports you know you attract people who are I guess they would say type a I think there are various terms you know more than me, Damon, about the definitions, but they have those personality traits.

51:53I guess like we all have, is it the dark triad or something? Narcissism, psychopathy. We all have them to a degree. So actually the finances go out there. So ultimately if you're human, you're already on the back foot. I guess it's like a graphic equalizer. It's like how high are each of these traits? We're going to lend you more to dope in. And so, yeah, I guess education is like anything. There's only so much you can do. I mean, you can try and cut off the supply lines, which I know WADA are doing. But again, it's a very pharmaceutical-led world. And also, you know, supplements. There's an argument they're seen as like the gateway to performance drugs.

52:38It's that next step. Mentally, you've taken that. You've made the hurdle, haven't you, of like, okay, well, I'm taking that. I'm used to taking a pill. So I'm taking this other pill. I'm not even thinking it's illegal. I'm just taking a pill. So I think we've just got to hope that people, you know, that their ethics remain sound, you know, the values are there. And the sports have got to preach this and really try and get the dopers. I mean, speaking to Dave Hellman, again, of the Athletes Integrity Unit, the Athletes Integrity Unit, is sort of now seen as one of the best anti-doping bodies there are.

53:18Okay. Just through the investment from athletics and various other reasons. And I sort of said to David, you know, why do you feel you're getting compliments? And he said, James, it's like we're one of the few bodies who actually go after the top athletes. Right. You know, the implication being a lot of sports, they might sacrifice a few lower-level sportsmen or lower-profile, but they're not really, they don't want to catch people. Again, going back to what I said about you've got the same people promoting and policing the sport, which is an inherent sort of conflict. Yeah, it's fascinating. As you're saying it now, I'm thinking, because I still think it's intrinsic, like Lance Armstrong has never failed a drugs test in the sport.

54:02It's his own admission that was funded by, was it the CIA going after him at the time, rather than the dopamine authorities? Yeah, I think it got to the Fed level, I think, of investigative. Yeah, because I think his famous quote was, yeah, I've been tested 500 times and I've never tested positive, which obviously isn't saying you haven't taken drugs. Yeah, yeah. It's just saying you've been tested. so so as researching and writing this billing book as it has it spoiled your enjoyment of of elite level sport well it's funny you say that actually damien because renier and shirley the whistleblower the jamaican later spoke to you earlier about it off yeah off record yeah tell us a story about that yeah so i interview there's a chapter on whistleblowers who are absolutely vital for the anti-doping system to work are basically saying, yep, this is going on.

55:01And they take big risks in doing this. I spoke to a lady called Rennie Ann Shirley who was quite high up at Jamaican anti-doping in 2010s. And she basically got frustrated with the paucity of testing on a domestic level. And she sort of flagged up to me, this isn't good enough. we're not testing our home athletes the jamaican athletes enough we're not doing a good enough job and she wasn't getting anywhere so she ended up writing to sports illustrated and basically saying you know in the six months up to london 2012 olympics this was that on a domestic level i think the jamaican athletes have been tested like a handful of times right you know maybe a few more but nothing really it was risally and um she was basically just absolutely shunned because you know she she sort of she was getting death threats she had to move out of her home because people didn't really um yeah they didn't really want to uh they didn't really want to know that some of these performances might be through nefarious means right um so yeah she was um um i mean she she's fine now unfortunately her mum passed away he was 96 but she said james i'm such an organized person i'm nowhere really i don't know where my life is going but yeah she sort of signed off by saying james i hope by the time you finish this book writing this book you're not as disenchanted with sport as i am and actually i don't think i am i mean at the end of the day i I guess Rennie had a different view.

56:40You know, she was in a different world than I am sort of through all the research and interviews. I think I spoke to one chap, Edmund Willison, who runs this really interesting sub stack called Honest Sport. It's all about doping and anti-doping in sport. And I think he summed it up well to me. He was saying, well, aren't you disenchanted? Because your whole profession is about doping. You're finding out about doping. And he said he was a bit to start with, but he said, actually, it's just he finds it more sort of almost a philosophical question. Now, he said, you know, you have all these interviews about the science of training.

57:15And I've written books on the science of cycling. And as you look at the training, you're looking at the nutrition, you're looking at the technology, the gear. But you've got this sort of elephant in the room of which these surveys mentioned earlier could be up to 50 percent. pragmatism you know some of the experts said to me it's probably more like 20 say a professional athletes might be taking a prohibited substance you've almost got this elephant in the room that is never mentioned so his was more like well he sees it as philosophical things like he's not judging it's just like you don't mention it so i think that's that's been the interesting thing and that's the whole thing it's not like i'm saying this is a big expose of xyz it's more like saying well this is the the landscape and professional sport and amateur sport as well is that these people are taking the drugs and then i guess it's up to the reader or the listener to then like is that an issue for them if you're watching the sport that some people might be taking drugs will it not impact it at all you know it's up to the individual isn't it really so yeah i don't feel disenchanted but um you know i tend to watch amateur football locally so maybe that's that's my way of being like okay i'm mentally keeping clean or it might just be budgetary reasons oh well james honestly it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you on this and i think your book if nothing else it makes you think you know what i mean that and rather than just unquestioningly accepting what we're told uh from the main protagonist i think giving you the chance to stop and think and reflect is a valuable service.

58:55So congratulations on it and thank you for sharing some of the insights and the research and the stories from it. Oh no, thank you Damien and thank you again for your Manchester United, the Ferguson book from years ago. Oh yeah, okay, thank you. That was a cracker but no, thank you for your time. I think it's been fascinating speaking to you. Will you be watching the enhanced games Damien? yeah I will but with sort of like a curious intrigue I think as that conversation with James was saying there at least it's transparent at least they're telling you that these people are cheating and seeing how far the human body can be pushed this is the interesting thing I think in the enhanced games they're not cheating are they no they're cheating in the Olympics or they're cheating in the Commonwealth Games but for the enhanced games I think it's personally I think it's fascinating that We're in an era now where athletes are saying, I'm going to do everything I can to be as fast, as strong, as powerful, as quick, as explosive as is humanly possible.

59:56I do not want to see those people going up against Keeley Hodgkinson in the Olympics, but I will be seeing what the human body can achieve with additional help, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, exactly. These people are playing just by a different set of rules. It doesn't mean that they're right or wrong. It just means that they know the bits that they're taking on, so let them crack on with it. But the message for the high-performance audience is if you have your own moral guide for your life, it can help you make the right decisions at the right time because I think that often it's only when there's genuine pressure that your morals get tested.

1:00:31Yeah, you know, there's that lovely quote in there that your purpose gets you up in the morning, your values allows you to sleep at night. And I think if you have a clear idea of what you're here to achieve, but more importantly how you want to go about achieving it you can you're a high performer and you're in that definition well I hope that you at home enjoyed hearing from Damien talking to James the book Dope is out now the enhanced game starts later on this month got a few questions from the high performance audience Damien oh go on we had a nice message from Mike who said an amazing podcast interview with Bjorn Mansvirk he's obviously the coach of Bodo Glimt it was out a couple of days ago what an amazing guy just goes to show that how the training and disciplines from the armed forces can be transposed to a sporting team, especially the mental experience, strategies and tactics.

1:01:19I'm really interested in what he was like off camera because I think people will always be on their best behaviour when they're on the podcast. What was Bjorn like when he kind of arrived, how he left? Did he have a big entourage? Was he nice to the team around you? Yeah, yeah, great question. Turned up with his wife. He was over in London doing a corporate job for a Norwegian oil company. So he was keen to fit it in around that. He was actually really, really unassuming. I think the fact that he doesn't like football, he's not sort of steeped in that culture of getting too high on his own successes, meant that I think there was a little bit of bemusement of why we were so intrigued to talk about it because it's just what I do.

1:02:00I've spent my whole life in the Air Force using these techniques, so why wouldn't it be transferable to a different culture? So he was great because I don't think he quite appreciated just how valuable his insights were. So interesting. And another message from Ross who says, interesting to hear that the relationship between Oscar and Lando didn't really change that much, which shows that the media have a great way of shaping people's views on matters like this, creating drama. So you went out to walk in to go and see Oscar, didn't you? Yeah. What was your take on that relationship with him and Lando?

1:02:33I definitely think there's more than is being said. there was a moment in the interview where Oscar just said look one of us could have not been wearing orange this season in other words one of us could have left the team I do think no one said it but there was a moment where there was a real breakdown in relations I think it was in Monza where the team swapped Lando and Oscar on the track because of various reasons including a slow pit stop for Lando and I think that's why Oscar then had a bad weekend the following weekend in Azerbaijan because I think he felt like he had to be in front of Oscar if he was behind him then it was up to the team to make decisions he didn't want them to make if he could just qualify in front and stay in front it was in his hands that caused him to push too hard but again I think in the moment it was difficult for him but I think in the future Oscar Piastri is going to be a stronger driver for the fact that he went through that but he's up against it now you know Max is driving fast again the McLarens are fast his teammate out drove him in Miami a couple of days ago so you know what Oscar has learned we're going to find out this season Listen, before we wrap up, anything you've watched, seen, enjoyed that you'd recommend to our audience for the next few days?

1:03:40Oh, that's a good question. Can I share one? Go on. A documentary on Netflix about Hulk Hogan. So basically, a documentary team were given access to Hulk or Terry, to give him his real name, in the year leading up to his death, not knowing that he was passed away from a cardiac arrest, obviously not knowing that he was going to die. It was an amazing documentary about his life in wrestling, his sacrifices, his mistakes. it's like even if you're not into wrestling it just teaches you the way that sport operates and we obviously speak to quite a few wrestlers here on the podcast I'd recommend it for you because you understand the way the sport works and how they can make or break people at any time how they've tried to make people and it hasn't happened how they've tried to break people and those people have returned why Hulk could never stop how he was totally caught up with his own character it's a really really good documentary oh I like that oh what is that it's on Netflix As you talk about Hulk Hogan, I always think of when we chatted with Billy Billingham, who worked as Hulk's bodyguard for a while, and he said the size disparity was huge, and Billy told the story how he decided he needed to impose himself on Hulk Hogan by just walking in and staring at him with a manic intensity.

1:04:52And he said, Hulk Hogan eventually went, you were either crazy or you're amazing at your job. I want to trust that you're going to be amazing at your job, so I'm going to trust you. and I like that because it must have been that Terry Belia was sort of spending his life meeting people all the time but he was obviously a decent Georgia character as well interesting I love that anything from you a book you've read something that you've seen I've really been enjoying can I talk about a non-fiction book yeah I've really been enjoying a book that I've it's called Yesteryear it's come out I've read that Anne Hathaway has bought the rights to it and it'll come out but the reason I like it is because it's about an Instagrammer who basically so it's an Instagrammer that sort of has curated a life as if it's in some in like an early pioneer of the American West and then she finds herself cast back into those days that she sort of created the world around.

1:05:47It's really good, really interesting. I love that, very good Listen mate, thank you very much for today Yep, thank you, I've really enjoyed it and I enjoyed chatting with James as well his insights sort of really opened my eyes. His book Dope is out now. Thank you very much for checking out High Performance. Don't forget you can watch as well as listen on Apple Podcasts. You can check us out on YouTube or listen wherever you get your shows from. Damien and I will see you next time for another episode of High Performance.

1:06:26We'll be right back.