Why Building Trust Beats Being Liked, with Martin Lewis

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1:52You cannot market trust. Trust only comes from being trustworthy. Welcome to the Essential Habits of High Performance, where we explore the daily practices, the mindsets and teachable moments that shape extraordinary lives and leaders. This week's habit is simple, but it's hard to live by. It's about why being trustworthy is better than being liked. Martin Lewis, the UK's most trusted financial voice, didn't get there by chasing likes or approval. He got there by choosing usefulness over popularity and by never compromising his integrity, even when no one was watching. In this episode, we explore how you can build real trust in your work, in your relationships and in your everyday decisions.

2:47And we'll hear directly from Martin about the moment he looked Prime Minister David Cameron in the eye and said, I will do everything I possibly can to ensure that nobody trusts you because you are not trustworthy. I'm Damien Hughes and I've worked as a visiting professor of organisational behaviour. I've been a trusted advisor to dozens of elite leaders including Tracy Neville, Gareth Southgate and Gregor Townsend, who were all looking to create high-performing cultures. I've also immersed myself in this world for the last 25 years because, above all else, I'm someone who just loves exploring how high performance works and, more importantly, how we can all take the lessons from our guests and apply them into our own world.

3:34Martin Lewis has been called many things, a financial expert, a consumer champion, even the most trusted man in the UK. But here's what's most interesting. He never set out to be light. he never set out to be useful. And that, ironically, is precisely why people like him. Because in a world where so many are performing for attention, Martin is performing a public service. He doesn't speak in soundbites to win applause. He speaks in cold, hard facts to help people make better decisions. You cannot market trust. Trust only comes from being trustworthy. It only comes from a track record of doing the right thing, or at least trying to do the right thing, and there is a differentiation between the two.

4:22Now that distinction matters. He's not claiming that he's flawless. He's not asking to be followed because he's perfect. He's showing that he's trying, relentlessly trying, to do the right thing. And in high-performance cultures, that's the difference that makes the difference. Because trust isn't always about being right, but it is always about being real. Let's go back to that meeting I referenced with David Cameron. Martin was at an energy summit run by the Prime Minister. Around the table, the bosses at Britain's biggest energy firms. The mood was defensive. Their message, help us, the public doesn't trust us.

5:02One executive turned to David Cameron and said, Prime Minister, we need your support. People don't trust us and that's stopping us from getting our message across. Cameron nodded. Heads around the room all agreed. A silent collective shrug of responsibility ensued. And then, from the very edge of the room, a lone hand went up. That hand belonged to Martin Lewis. He was ignored at first, but he didn't lower his hand. He didn't shrink away. Eventually, the Prime Minister turned and said to him, Yes? And I said, I just want to say, having heard the call on trust, I will do everything I possibly can to ensure that nobody trusts you because you are not trustworthy.

5:52Jaws dropped. Air left the room and you could hear egos beginning to crack. Then came the evidence. The latest data shows 56 % of whatever it was of people who come to your call centres are given incorrect information. I will not tell people to trust you until you become trustworthy. Listen to that. It wasn't a rant. It wasn't a performance. But it was a masterclass in integrity. Because for Martin Lewis, trust isn't a tactic. It's a principle. It's not a checkbox. It's a foundation. So you have to do it right from the moment that you start if you're setting out to have an entity or be trustworthy in that way.

6:34I have a massive professional paranoia to a ridiculous level that drives my team mad, drives me mad. And yet, it works. Not just morally, but commercially too. I want MSE and the work I do to be trusted because that's my core belief set. Right, which is pretty inarguable. That's what I believe in, that's why I do it. And here's the genius. He's built both. Because when trust is your business model, profit becomes a by-product. He recounted one senior colleague who had come from a hard-nosed commercial background, who put it perfectly to him. Our biggest financial asset is the trust that people have in the site.

7:14And therefore we cannot, we cannot do anything that breaches that. Even the spreadsheets agree with this. Trust isn't the soft stuff, it's the smart stuff. It doesn't slow you down, but it does sustain you. And in the long run, it's the only shortcut that does actually work. Now let's take a deeper look into why this is important. Remember, as ever, you can find links to the studies which I reference in the show notes. Martin Lewis didn't just build trust on gut instinct. It turns out he was also building it on rock-solid science. Because today, 55 % of CEOs say a lack of trust is one of the biggest threats to their business.

8:01Now, note what they don't say. It's not competition. It's not cash flow. it's not the rise of AI, it's trust. And the data backs them up. In one review of over 125 studies, it shows that high trust teams don't just feel better, they actually perform better. They complete tasks faster, they share knowledge more freely, they handle stress more smoothly, they stick together through setbacks, and maybe, maybe most importantly, they show up with their full selves. When trust is present, people speak up, they take risks, they collaborate and they contribute But when it's missing, well that's when suspicion creeps in Silence replaces creativity and performance quietly crumbles The management thinker Stephen Covey once put it that Trust is a confidence based on past interactions The opposite of this is suspicion so how do we design trust how do we do it on purpose psychologist ron friedman studied the world's best teams and he found that trust doesn't come from pep talks or posters it comes from five practical habits let's have a quick look at them one we need to talk more high trust teams make more calls every day.

9:25Two, we need to plan better meetings. That's where clarity builds confidence. Three, we share personal stories. Non-work chats create real bonds. Four, we express gratitude to each other. Recognition increases likeability and loyalty. And five, we act with emotional honesty. Teams that can share joy and frustration, well, they tend to thrive. The takeaway to this is that trust isn't built on grand gestures. It's not built in one, off-site, or fix by a strategy deck. It's made in small, consistent moments that stack up day after day. Martin Lewis may have felt paranoid about maintaining trust, but in pure performance terms, that so-called paranoia might just be a superpower.

10:18the psychologist Frances Frey she's a professor at Harvard Business School developed what she calls the trust triangle it's a simple framework for anyone who's seeking to understand what makes us trust someone on the triangle it contains authenticity where you ask yourself the question are you showing up as a real you rather than some polished persona two logic do your arguments make sense? Can people follow your reasoning? And three, empathy. Do you genuinely care about the needs and interests of other people? Now Martin Lewis scores high on all three, but what makes him magnetic, what makes millions instinctively tune in and lean forward when he speaks, is that he leads with empathy.

11:06You can feel that he's on your side, even when he's delivering a difficult message. In fact, especially when he's delivering a difficult message. He does so in a way that respects your intelligence and honors your position. That's what earns him the benefit of the doubt because when someone's priority is your well-being not their own approval then you can start to believe them and more importantly then you can start to believe in them. So what's your challenge this week? Well why not consider building a trust habit with three small powerful actions 1. Do one thing today that aligns your actions with your values, even if no one's watching.

11:49In fact, especially if no one's watching. Trust isn't built in the spotlight, but it's built in the shadows. 2. Make one phone call or have one conversation where your goal is simply to be useful and not impressive. Ask yourself, what does this person need from me right now? And then just deliver it without expectation. And three, end one meeting or interaction by showing appreciation. Maybe a specific thank you or a bit of recognition. A small act of gratitude shared consistently compounds trust over time. Because remember what Martin Lewis taught us, you can't market trust, you can only earn it.

12:34So this week earn it and keep earning it because once you do you'll have something that no shortcut can ever buy. Now I'm going to be joined by Will our brilliant producer who's been with us here on the podcast since the very start and we're going to have a listen to some more snippets of Martin talking about the righteous indignation of fighting for the little guy, one of the key lessons that he's learned from his own horrific childhood trauma, and the emotional toll which success has had on him.

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15:13Oh my gosh, I love this episode. I've forgotten how great it was. I say that a lot. but definitely with this one i remember now how almost i know there's a little background as to how we even got martin on the podcast he was very particular about podcasts that he does he doesn't really do many and uh this was a recommendation from his wife so his wife had listened to high performance and she was like they will treat you well they won't take you out of context and what they you know they mean to do good so we felt that whole trust element to him come through even in the booking process i certainly felt when he came in the studio that he was almost testing out how trustworthy we were you know like we were talking about stuff and he was like can this not be on the record and we were obviously respecting that but you realize just how it's the very currency of everything he does is this this intangible idea of trust that's what he's selling and that's what his whole reputation is built on.

16:15Yeah, I think like money saving expert was such a big tool for me growing up as well. Used it all the time. And definitely, you know, there's maybe this one to talk about in the clip coming up, but those template letters that he made for us all to kind of attack, you know, the big banks was a huge part of a lot of us, you know, getting some money back. Why don't we listen to that clip where you can hear his voice rise, you can hear the passion and also the righteous indignation that he feels about how the more vulnerable members of our society have been taken for a ride by some of these big institutions and how it fuels his desire to put things right.

16:59I think sometimes when you understand it, you know, when you steep yourself in it and live and breathe, And you know that the people who design these systems are also steeped in it. And then you just think, you bastards. You've deliberately, deliberately done something to profiteer. And you're taking that off many people whose lives are going to have a much worse impact. I'm not anti-capitalist. I believe in making money. I believe in entrepreneurship. I believe in all of those things. But I think you want to be able to sleep at night. So when I did bank charge reclaiming, which we got a billion pounds back, which was like the predecessor to PPI reclaiming, which was even bigger.

17:45And in the early days of both of those, they were running simultaneously. And I did template letters at the time rather than the tools we use now. I think we did six million template letters for bank charges and more on PPI. I mean, enormous numbers. And I met someone later who worked for a debt charity. So I probably met them in about 2010, 2011. and they said they had worked at the banks in the early days of my bank charges and PPI template letters. And what she said to me that was fascinating, she said, do you know that about 20 % of your letters, and they know what mine are, about 20 % of your letters, where it says your name, your address, your details, people would leave that in.

18:21They wouldn't delete the your name, your address, your details. And 5 % of your letters, people would just send the letter in without adding their details. So people would post a template letter, they'd print it off the site, they'd say your name, your address, nothing personal, your case, and they'd post it. And I find that one of the most fundamentally depressing things of my entire career. So here we are, with Britain's biggest financial institutions, having deliberately, systemically, and no one's gone to prison for it, no one's been prosecuted criminally for it, deliberately, systemically ripped millions of everyday people off who were already needing to borrow at that time.

19:07And 5 % of the people who had those products who were trying to get their money back had such limited mental capacity or functional literacy that they did not understand that they needed to put their details in a template letter. I mean, that is criminal. That is criminal. and you sit there going, well, someone, someone has to do something. Oh, the passion in his voice when he's like, that is criminal. I mean, I can feel it, how much he cares, how much the man cares. You can understand why, you know, this is a guy who the country want to see as prime minister that was done in a poll. They want to see Martin Lewis run the country.

19:50And when he lives by those values, you can kind of see why. Well, I think, you know, in previous episodes, we've listened to Toto Wolff talking about walking your why, this willingness to people don't listen to what you say, they follow what you do. And the fact that he speaks passionately, but then obviously behaves passionately in terms of his whole business and money saving expert is really careful about the partnerships it goes into and the advice it offers. Should we listen to another clip? because I think we spoke to him on the podcast around, it's a formula called the trust equation, where how do people develop trust?

20:28And one of the ways is that you have to reveal a little bit of yourself. The intimacy of knowing your own story allows people to understand your own authenticity. And a bit that I think not many people are aware of is the personal tragedy that Martin went through when I think he was 10 or 11. His mother was killed in a hit and run accident and nobody's ever been found or convicted of that crime then. And he speaks very much how for the next eight years of his life, he only left the house to go to school and he never really learned to speak about the damage that loss had had on him. I'm a patron of a bereavement charity for young children and I've unfortunately had seen children who are, the children of some friends of mine who've lost their parents, very sadly.

21:18And one of my messages now, when I look back at what happened to me, I mean, apart from the fact, get cancelling. Well, for heaven's sake, get cancelling. Have someone to talk about. There are great techniques for dealing with grief. You know, nothing will fix it, but they will enable you to handle it better. But a lesson I have for anyone with grief at any age is do not tell yourself off for smiling. I cannot tell you enough. You know, you lose someone yesterday. You've had the biggest tragedy in their life. if something happens that makes you smile, the reaction on that day is to stop yourself because I shouldn't be styling.

21:53Screw that. Screw that. The most important thing, you know, as someone who went through childhood trauma, the most important thing is grab every smile you can. Grab every, and if it comes, do not fight your smiles down. Do not ever try and make yourself less happy than you could be. And do not feel guilty about being happy. I mean, make sure it's appropriate if there's somebody else there who's having a different moment. But don't fight your smiles down. And if I could go back and tell that hideously hurt young boy anything, it was like, just go and try and be happy. I mean, that's incredibly moving, but I think it also gives us a glimpse as to where his desire for social justice comes from.

22:35You know, as somebody that's gone through that and survived it and learned to try and find moments of happiness in it i think it allows us to really empathize with him at a deeper level and go i get why this stuff matters to you this crusade that you seem to be on that was the most emotional part of the whole interview and something that you know obviously we you know researched a little bit but didn't understand the depth of that trauma around his childhood that you could still feel in the interview you could feel the emotion in his voice and And you could tell he's done a lot of work to try and go over it.

23:11But yeah, it was definitely a part of his world, which now makes complete sense, as you said, to why he's on this crusade. But wow, like it kind of hit you right in the heart, didn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Have you got a clip that you wanted to share with us? Yeah, the last one I think was really, really good and stuck out was the cost that it's all been, the cost of success. and actually why striving to be the best, the number one, you know, is that really the definition of high performance? And I think he puts it really well on the toll this has all taken on him. Do you really want to be that successful?

23:52Because there's a cost to it. There's a cost to pushing as hard as I've pushed and as hard as other people have pushed. And I look at some of my incredibly bright contemporaries from university who haven't on paper been as successful as I have and who perhaps, you know, everybody, when we were leaving, I was at the LSE, there were lots of people who were really driven there. Everyone who was leaving thought they really wanted to be successful. And there were many who, within probably three or four years, something went, actually, I can make a good income and I can work nine to five and get a good income and I can have a nice life afterwards.

24:23And that's all going to, and that's pretty good for me. I'm not sure I want to push. And I was there going, zone, zone, zone. I think in balance at the age of 51, if I were to compare myself to some of them, I think if you add up the total happiness that each other have had, they're ahead on the happiness score. How hard do you want to push? How much do you really want to be the number one in what you do on the big picture? Most people can't be, so a lot of people will fail. And even if you do get it, I'm sure there are some people you'll have met who've had great journeys to top level success and high performance and haven't had to pay for it.

25:01But I've certainly paid for it in quite a lot of ways. Locking yourself away, doing spreadsheets for many hours when other people weren't, missing out on social life, missing out on interactions with families, certainly my 30s in the drive stage of my career, and the impact it's had on my mental health with the responsibility that's come with it. I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me. I just think it's a choice thing. I mean, that's such a powerful clip to understand the price of success. I'll tell you a quick story that I met Martin last year. He was with his wife and when he'd come on the podcast, he told me about a holiday destination he'd been to.

25:33So I told him that I'd been to the same hotel that he had on his recommendation. Now I hadn't because it was far too expensive for me. But what was funny was what I thought was just a little light-hearted joke. He actually took it really seriously and was worried that I'd followed his advice without him knowing he was deliberately giving it to him. And I had to calm him down and say, no, I didn't really go there. And it was just a memory of where you'd... I'd been to the same place, just not to the same hotel. And it showed me just how deeply he takes his role in society. He doesn't want to be somebody that people blindly follow because that weighs him down.

26:11Wow. I mean, living with that. I mean, I've read that money-saving expert turned down so much money as well. People who wanted to advertise on there or people who had tried to buy it. And he refused like millions of pounds because it just, you know, he couldn't erode that one thing that he's built so much up. Couldn't erode that trust with the people. But you really get a feel that, you know, this stuff is not for free, is it? Yeah, absolutely. You know, how often do we talk on this podcast that high performance often takes place in the shadows, the stuff that isn't under the glare of the spotlight, but it takes place on those quiet days when nobody else is watching.

26:53And I think that if you've enjoyed this, you'll understand that trust fits within that same category. It's the stuff that you do when nobody is watching. So if you know somebody that's looking to develop trust rather than popularity, why not share this episode with them? Maybe get them to listen to it and you both talk about your takeaways from it. More than anything, I want to say thank you to you for trusting us with your time today. Thanks for listening to The Essential Habits of High Performance. I'm Damien Hughes. And I'll see you next time.

27:57We'll be right back. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. Hey, I'm Dr. Z, and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast? Wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout.

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