Why England's Golden Generation Never Won a Trophy: Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole & Peter Crouch

0:02The 1990 World Cup was pivotal for me watching Gaza. I remember thinking in my bedroom watching it but I want to be that. I was unbelievably proud and the pride that I took walking out and again like I say knowing you're one of the best in your country never left me but I never enjoyed the games. My mum and dad and sister are in the crowd and the whole stand and the whole stadium are booing me because of you know maybe a little campaign sort of against me. The World Cup is almost here. I don't know about you, I'm excited. And I wanted to go back to a conversation we had with three men who lived in, arguably, England's greatest era of players and never got it over the line.

0:46I'm talking in this case about Rio Ferdinand, Peter Crouch and Joe Cole. Between the three of them, they've got over 200 caps and were part of what's known as the Golden Generation. that great group of English players the best we've had in decades but why did it never happen? What we've found in this conversation is honestly one of the most open fascinating breakdowns of what can go wrong inside the winning environment and it's a story that can only be told long after the event has happened So with England heading into another tournament I think it's more relevant now than ever and maybe this time they're going to get it right

1:28when I talk about playing for England first of all I'd love to hear from all three of you about the emotion that that brings up what's the first thing you think about when I talk about your England careers I don't know for me personally I was I just thought I am one of the best players in the country now because you never really think about that when you're on your way up when you're on the journey to get to the pinnacle which was playing for your country I was growing up at West Ham at the academy there Joe was just underneath and it's like that's an achievement to get in the West Ham first team and then you're setting new targets and it's always like England's the one though like because at that point you're not thinking about winning it's just getting into the first team becoming a pro and then if you can get into the England team and set your new goals and achieve that and when that call comes or the facts that I got it was just like first you want to tell your mum we spoke about this the other day didn't we you tell your mum go home and tell your mates on your estate and then you do settle into your bed or your sofa at some point on that day and go right I am actually one of the best in this in the world in this country like yeah I've got to take that on I remember South Africa World Cup 2010 I was on the golf course and I remember getting a call from Franco Baldini saying that um you're going to the World Cup and I've got the call and he said by the way you're going to be number nine right so then obviously straight away the first person I call always my dad always I called my dad and said dad um go to the world cup and I'm wearing number nine and then obviously like he put in perspective for me because I thought you know great man it's the world cup that was all I thought about then he thought actually he broke it down for me and said think about how many boys and girls like play football in England or English who dream of playing for England think of how many people make it as a professional footballer think of how many people get the chance to play for England then think of how many people get the chance to play for England in a World Cup and then think about how many people want to wear the number nine.

3:21And I'm like, on this particular occasion, it was me. And then like, when he broke it down like that, I started getting goosebumps and thinking, oh my God, like, this is really prestigious. And then Capello proceeded to play me for three minutes and I was like, I'm like, you must have, knowing you was going up for the next tee shot, you must have been confident of England's number nine. I wasn't answering for the first 18 obviously you don't answer your phone do you on the 18th what is this number and then I thankfully answered it what was the next shot like no no I was done I was coming off the green oh lovely yeah few beers then straight away without doubt yeah similar similar to what the boys said I think playing for England was really important to me because where I like we talked about the other night but where I lived I used to go and watch England I used to get on the tube and go and watch England and the 1990 World Cup was pivotal for me watching Gazza play and do what he did was like right I remember thinking in my bedroom watching it but I want to be that I want to be Gazza I want to go to the World Cup and then so when you get the call to play for England eventually that's all I can think of I just want to do if I could just leave something a little memory because you remember Platts Volley I guarantee all of us after that goal went out we'd have gone out onto the estate and got the lads to throw the ball up and try and do that volley.

4:45Do you know what I mean? And then the thought of, I've got the opportunity to do something like that. He's leading us to his volley against Sweden. Is that where you're going, isn't it? Is that where you're going? You've just ruined it for me. So that's where it makes me... We've had all these stories before. This could have been in any pub in East London. I'd have just been real dual in there. No, but just being able to pull that shirt on, play for England and be able to do something like that was amazing. And how soon, though, does it go from like the pleasure of being picked for England to then want to win for England?

5:19Straight away really. You get these business immediately. You get there and it's like, do you know what? I was lucky. I was almost used to being around the England squad because I went as like a 16 year old to the Euros, Euro 98 in England where it was like a magnificent tournament and they got to the semis. And I was there for like probably about eight or nine days as a young kid introducing you to the England set up but it's a young kid who they think's got potential. So when I went there, I didn't really have that bedding in period where I'm a bit nervous still, but I've been here type of thing.

5:52So I was very much like, okay, I want to get in the team now. I weren't there just happy to be there as one of the squad players. I was thinking, I think I should play. I think I should be in. And you look around the dressing room and you're thinking, I had like Gareth Southgate, Tony Adams, Sol Campbell, Martin Keogh and people that are in front of me, but I actually thought I should be playing. and it was weird and I actually ended up coming on my debut for Gareth Southgate he got injured and it's weird to say but you're sitting there delighted in a way it's bad but I hope he's alright but thanks and then you go on and you do your thing and you hope they never see that player again That's interesting because Glenn done that Glenn Odom would have been manager bringing the young players in and Terry Venables and then we didn't do that under Sven did we we never saw a young player and in all of our era and in St George's Park when you go up there now, they're all close to that.

6:42They're all integrated. So it immediately takes out that sort of any nerves that these young lads going to play for England would have because they've been around it. They've seen Harry Kane. They know them. They've had a coffee with them. You know, so I think that's vital for the success going forward. My mindset was totally different to these boys, I'll be honest, because Joe and Rio were like 18, 19. I think everyone knew they were going to play for England. You know, like that. Steven Gerrard, Wayne Rooney, Michael Owen. you know that they're on the path to play for England. Mine was different.

7:12You know, I went roundabout. I wasn't ready for the Premier League till I was 23. You know, I played in it, but I wasn't ready for it. So when I got in the England squad, it was the back end of the season and it was like the Tour of America. A lot of people dropped out, you know, but I thought this is my chance. As you're an experienced international. I was there, Crouchy. I was there. But for me, I thought this is my chance. There's two games. And my mindset was, I've got to play both of them. So I'm not a one cat wonder. And that was genuinely because I thought, you know... Was that a fair, was it?

7:42A proper fair? Of course it was. I don't want to be that one person who gets one cap, you know. And I got injured for the first game and my debut was in the second game in USA and I did quite well. But then obviously my next, I got called up to the next one and thankfully, you know, my England career sort of progressed. But I looked at it like Rio's talking about, you know, ultra confidence that he should be playing every single game. mine was I know I'm not better than Wayne Rooney or Michael Owen I'm happy with that but my goal was to be the best of the rest you know they both were quite injury prone and I knew that if I was just behind them at every so I'm talking you know Jermaine Defoe Carl got in there for a few Dean Ashton got in there Darren Bentz So you're saying you're better than them I'm saying my goal was to be better than them You was better than them as you said is that what you said I'm saying I want to make sure that I'm the next best, basically.

8:39Yeah, so that was my mindset.

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10:08So what I love about this is that all three of you, when I say the moment you get caught up for England, like your eyes light up. I remember having a conversation on BT with Rio and Frank and Stephen. And I remember Stephen saying something really interesting. He said, playing for England was hard. It wasn't enjoyable. and then I speak to Coutinho who goes away with Brazil and they love it and we never had that with England so I think the natural progression for this conversation is you go from oh my goodness I'm going to play for my country and you first at the age of six kicking a football dreamed of that moment why are you all now sitting here having had brilliant England careers but you never lifted a trophy for England what wasn't right in your era every single manager I played for I had a problem with issues with the media.

10:53They were leaking stories about certain players who were misbehaving, probably, definitely. But also, it just felt like it was them against us. It wasn't like we're going to the World Cup or the Euros together. Talking of Stevie, I remember we come on a coach after a game away somewhere and we played and we didn't play particularly well, none of us. And we're sitting there, I don't know if we got beat or whatever, but he'd come on the bus and I remember him getting up, putting his bag down, sitting down and went, that'll probably be out of four in the paper tomorrow like but that type of comment was like that's one of the first things on your mind as an England player then it's not conducive to a good working environment to be the best to be elite to be a winning team because you're worried about the reaction of the media who are so powerful at that time especially in our country bearing in mind there was no social media then so what they said was the gospel it wasn't like you can say stuff now in the media and these papers can write stuff or people can say stuff, pundits like ourselves can speak.

11:54Players have a voice now and a platform to go, no, that ain't right. Or I don't agree with that. So, and I don't know, we, we weren't good enough really, was we? Yeah, I do think there's an element of it was the, the, the competitiveness of the Premier League. I think if I look at like Rio, Bex, Gary Neville, Scholes, you know, you've got JT, Lamps, Joe, Stevie Cara like that Premier League at that time was war it was it was it was two like four five really really good teams and at the core of that was English players and I feel that it was detrimental to the England team how competitive the Premier League was and how much you wanted to get one over on those particular teams I felt that but I've never heard it from someone did you feel that when you was in the squad yeah yeah I think you could see it like for me I was quite new to it and I think certainly the Manchester Liverpool thing is a thing right having played for Liverpool as soon as you signed there you was an enemy exactly right so Alex Ferguson would put that in your head the same as anyone from Liverpool and even the regional thing no matter about the team the teams how successful they are but as places it's just a thing and I think it's less far less fractured just now they look like they all get on They were like, they're not at war every Saturday.

13:18Remember those games that we played in the Champions League? That was all out like intense games. Intense, mentally exhausting, intense. And the two managers were rivals. Everyone was rivals. And then you meet up for England. How are you going to leave that at the door and then be a team? Yeah. To be fair, I listen to what the boys say, but I think it's more from a pragmatic. I just think tactically we'd fallen behind. you know and you have to remember glenn you know then kevin keegan come in and he didn't he went a bit old school kevin and then we went on to sven sven was doing stuff 4-4-2 rigid rigid stuff that i was doing at 14 at 14 i had a i had a said this ain't right you know i'm what i watch italian football you know when they're playing in triangles they're playing out from the back players are taking responsibility and we'd go i'd go away with england from the age of under 15s right the way through every level and we wouldn't have control of the games but I know we'd have better players technically physically like mentally like the order the England team all them names you listed Rio John Frank Stevie Rooney elite players no doubt I've played with the best players in the world we all have like been fortunate enough to do that and they're as good as them you know but tactically I just think it was a case where we was going the wrong way down a road of how we believe football should be played so far and we'd all been brought up in that sort of system so when it comes to international football it was we wasn't set up to win international football we could win a game off of brilliance of an England player you know whether it be a Beckham free kick Stevie scoring a wonder goal whatever but I just think the system in place was fragile it wasn't you know it wasn't we never read if I asked you did you ever play in an easy England game where you come off and you went that was like the easiest game like you didn't even get a sweat on for our clubs you could name loads of games you probably forgot more than you'd remember how many easy games you had with England it was never easy I always used to think this is graft go to like Moldova and come off sweating thinking Jesus we got through that one why?

15:32because tactically we were so poor like we were so rich I remember what was our patterns of play do you remember no one ever sat me down and gone when you get the ball you need to have this this this option when the goalie gets the ball you need to be here when Rio gets the ball you can be here or here and you know like you see with players now there's clear patterns it's like standard for even the poor teams you can see what they're trying to do with us I don't know what we were trying to do we relied on individuals you look at the big games who won like Karachi scored the goals in the World Cup it's like individual brilliance isn't it it's just because Crouchy's there knows where to be instinctively it ain't like oh we've worked to get in that position to then play it was just like get it there and then someone will be there to finish it off Michael Owen in the World Cup did you ever feel you could go and challenge tactics or discuss them in more detail with the coaches no well Fabio Capello no I remember he screamed at Theo Walcott that first session do remember Theo Walcott to like a ghost and I recovered because he said before the session And he's like, he played right wing.

16:32He said, I don't want you to run inside. He was in Austria before South Africa. He said, I don't want my wingers to come inside. Stay wide, stay wide. He really went on about it. He was on that point home. And the first whistle, the first player of the game, Theo's running inside. And he stopped the session, screamed, going nuts. I remember Theo getting on the coach after going, wow. So scared. What does that do then to the rest of the players who are established internationals, who should be able to share their thoughts or their views. Culture weren't like that. No, no. We wasn't... Like, again, the boys are right in a sense.

17:08There was a disjointedness between Liverpool, Manchester United and Chelsea players. And Crouchy's right. There was massive rivalries that don't exist now. But I really think it was the tactical side of things. And if you go on to Capello, who, by the way, has been a genius and what a career he's had. You know, you can't disregard what he's done. but my problem with Capello from from and when I was fit largely because that was sort of to start my England end of my England career but start my injury problems when I was fit he played me apart from it apart from the World Cup like went to 2010 so but the way that he didn't live in England I just think there wasn't no care and attention it turned up when it was close to an England game and then what done me was at the World Cup when they was all watching Italy like hollering and hooting when they scored like I just think that the foresight of of that wasn't great it was not good optics for like it bothered you it bothered me yeah if you look at them now though you obviously do a bit of coaching and stuff yeah but you see the coaches on the way they coach now and you go to watch any kind of academy games the football is replicating what they've seen in the Premier League with Man City type football there's no long ball game really now but you can see how much they've worked on that in training and I know it's slightly different when you've got a group for maybe a week or 10 days it's not you can't work on it every single day but I don't remember working on much do you?

18:37Set pieces set pieces and defending but if you took England if you can get back on time machine and take an England team from 2002 and think you've got all these great players and what's been the problem handling the ball in tournaments at important times so you ain't got to tell Rio Ferdinand John Terry how to defend Ashley Cole Gary Neville like they they can play in the back four so I think the time would have been better off used to implementing patterns of play how to hold on to the ball our generation for definite was never brought up and this generation's a bit better but still nowhere near what Spain and Italy and France are like we were always taught do not pass the ball to a man with someone marking him well if you're gonna if you're gonna win you need to pass the ball to people that are marked to be able to take that man out of the game sometimes i mean and if you have got someone under a bit of pressure and give it to be confident to give it to him whereas that's where you end up going away from what your principles are and your values are as a team because you're not confident and you remember you're not you're told don't give it to him it's risk to pass it into someone who's marked and so i think there's a lot of things reasons why we didn't win i think definitely i agree with the guys i think that the the tactics of our team and the generation was was bad for the players we had um but i do feel that the environment wasn't the right environment to create a winning team so can i ask you around that then because when we interviewed gareth he spoke to us around he tried to break down this club versus country and make it club and country and one of the ways he'd done it was by getting players to tell a little bit of their own story so you can see more what you have in common rather than what divides you like club loyalties so was anything ever done like that in terms of breaking down barriers or have you know you've in hotels where you've got all this time was anything ever done where people can tell a little bit of their few drinks in the bar after games that was it and that that was to be fair that was the tool used mainly to you know break down barriers social lubricant have a little drink yeah but i i also I think the England national team has benefited from, I don't want to say less competitive Premier League, but a less aggressive Premier League, if you like.

20:48I think we all remember, you know, Roy Keane in the tunnel, you know, like, would that happen now? You know, little things like that. I'm talking about like tackles flying in. We almost had a fight. I don't remember. We were mates with England, but we were, you know, things would go on on the pitch. I'd win that fight. I don't agree.

21:11I just feel like it's, I definitely think that the Premier League is a different place now than what it was. I don't think we can, I think we can all agree on that. It's not, you know, I think it's an amazing product. It's a beautiful, we all love watching it, but it's not what it was in those days. It doesn't have the subplots that it was in our time. You knew that you were, I don't know, that Sanso's playing Sanso, there would be some sort of subplot, whether it's the two managers at it, or there'll be a player, you know, doesn't like that player and there'll be like an aggressive spark that could just change the whole dynamics of the game.

21:41It doesn't really seem like, and I think the reason why that isn't the same now is because one, the personalities and characters are different and their upbringings have been different. But also, with social media, you're now, you're now, without ever meeting someone, you're a mate. So all of these players like each other's pictures, which is the culture today. They like each other's pictures and chat on Instagram, never met each other. So when they do see each other, than England, it's like, what's happening? You out here? Because they've got a common place where they've been connecting. Whereas if I didn't see Karachi home and away in the games and then I'd see him at England, I wouldn't chat to him ever again, really.

22:18I might see him on a night out but he wouldn't remember, he'd be too drunk. Why did none of you and, you know, there were other big leaders in the England team at the time, why did nobody see this and change this? Well, why did you not see that you weren't You weren't close or tight. Go back to... You're smart people. ...2010. And, you know, we talked about, why didn't anyone go to the manager? JT tried to speak to the manager and he was the captain along with Rio at that time. I can't remember. But like big players. And he just got absolute shut down, right? So JT then come out and he did an interview before one of the World Cups.

23:00And he's like, well, you know, i kind of remember the the he was like we're gonna have a chat with the manager about something in the meeting the press must have asked the question the results were bad and then and then we had this meeting arranged with capello it was going to be the players do you remember and the players and the manager and he was going to have a conversation about what we can do and we turned up and then he just went go to dinner and that was it and i'm like probably could have been handled a bit better in terms of how you ask about it, but we could have had a really forthright conversation just before a World Cup and we could have got aired things.

23:39I think the culture was different though. The culture was different because it was almost like these managers then probably saw it more, like you're questioning the way I rule this thing. Other nations were able to win tournaments and competitions. They were doing something that England weren't. like it was chalk and cheese when we had sven which was so relaxed and then and then we would get it was getting labeled like player power players are running the show you know and so they went so far the other way so you weren't allowed to speak to fabio capello because he he ruled it with an iron fist it was like we it was like we had this that didn't work so we're gonna have this now and we were just told this is how we do it until things started going badly at a World Cup and all the you know kind of things that were banned or stops were allowed to he tried to relax us because he realised he sort of panicked during mid-tournament that we weren't performing Sven was bringing like shirts to get signed by Bexto I don't even remember the English England manager I couldn't believe it getting shirts like Bexto signed shirts I was almost like what was your perception of that when you're seeing a manager do that I just turned away in disgust I was like whoa like because the England manager is like he's the man isn't it he's like your manager is like you look at him as if he's the rules of roost he directs where we're going he's like looks like no man in this team with like admiration or would show that oh bit of a star bit of an icon there it just felt like that was the I was like wow it was just it was mad as well it is weird this but Bex is an absolute superstar and we're all happy and that's fine that's not a problem but it's mad we used to laugh at it as a team because I remember we got off to coach once and Bex got off to coach and all of our security just went with Bex and the whole team are standing there and there's like fans coming from all over the gaff and they're going we're all getting marauded by all these fans pictures here there and you look around and Bex is just it wasn't his fault just it's the security it was like he's the super star I've got to look at but like it was isn't it for me I didn't give a hell about anything like that it won't bother me but when you look at it afterwards with hindsight you think okay there must have been some people subconsciously yeah but subconsciously some people might go flipping oh yeah i was one more for him one for us it's like and then it just that that's just a little tweak in the ambience then and the environment and the culture that it changes it could be a problem for as a contribute to why you didn't become successful not the be all and end all but if you know what i mean so that will come in 2010 that you're describing it like if you take spain as an example at the time when marino and barcelona Mourinho's Madrid and Barcelona were at loggerheads and there's that story that the goalkeeper Casillas and Xavi had connected on a private phone call because they'd gone back through the U-Franks and they agreed to stop the enmity to bring the squad together for the World Cup did any of the players ever get together privately if you've not got the manager that's encouraging it did any of you reach out and try and build these bonds?

26:42I didn't but like I said I could sense now looking back the things but because of my character I didn't I was always a bit of a floater anyway I could go and mix mingle with anyone like I knew Rio very well I knew Michael Carrick he was my roommate for four years at West Ham so yes and I didn't feel like I wasn't like one of the main I wasn't in the leadership group like one of the main people so I wasn't really I'm going to go if I just started a group chat that's what I'd go what's Coley doing come on mate I feel like I'm in that boat as well they'd have laughed me out of the room but I decided yeah I went along with whatever went to I was just asking to be there maybe you just thought this was what playing for England was like almost every former England player that I now work with says playing for England was like scary I was rigid I was tight I was anxious about the reaction of the media I was never free is that true I think for me yeah it was until I started scoring I always felt like I had to prove I had to score in every game just to stay in there because I didn't fit the profile of an England player.

27:47I didn't look like an England player. You know, I was different to everything else. So I felt like, yeah, I felt there was, you could feel it. I remember starting the first game of the World Cup, like 2006, and in the dressing room before round, like players were doing things that they'd never done before. You know, I definitely felt that there was a nervousness. What sort of thing? Just like, you just notice things around, and I'm talking smallest details, like Rio was saying, like the smallest little things you think we'd have a huddle right before we went out never done that before yeah well i know it's a big game but like we've never done that before so why are we doing that now just tiny little things everyone's looking at each other yeah it was like why are we in a huddle like just little things like that like before you go out play paraguay in the in the opening game and like you just think that's that's nervousness you know i don't know it's just it breeds and and you can feel it and but it shows you there was no real leadership from the top, from the manager then?

28:41Because I think the managers drive it. I think all the clubs that I played at, the manager drove the way the team carried himself and there was a reflection of the manager. And the England team, we didn't even have a real identity under Sven and under Capello. It was just, well, your identity was all the wrong identity type of things. I said that right. Well, your identity was all wrong because of the person who was in charge and he reflected that person. With Sven, we were quite a nervous team at times. Do you know what I mean? We were placid in everything we'd done, passive in the way that we played.

29:20We just relied on the individuals to come in and produce a performance or a moment. We got to the World Cup because of Bex. Against Greece, if Bex doesn't play, we don't go. It's just an individual's performance who got us there. It's crazy, but that's just how we were. so it shows you that the functionality of the whole team was wrong so if you look back now then what sorry and just to go back to the point about xavi and um casillas i respect that because that's a maturity to address see it and then address it i think we were too club dominant we it's like almost thinking we're going to go back to our clubs what's the gaffer going to say what's the fans going to say because they didn't ask our fans didn't they did they'd they'd say bomb the England team and come play for United.

30:06That's the way it was back then. That's what Alex Ferguson encouraged as well. So the same as most of the club managers, I think they don't care about your national team, do they? There's absolutely no care given at all. What was that? In the same sense though, the Spanish were ahead of their time tactically as well. So even like they, they won the World Cup probably despite of the, in spite of the fact that they probably weren't, and also Xavi and Casillas' maturity coming together. so they had the tactical they had the quality players and then they had the togetherness and that's why they won three tournaments so it's like we're trying to find the reason why England didn't win and there's probably multiple reasons and we also have to say maybe maybe we wasn't good enough as well individually look at some of the teams there do you know what I mean at that time Brazil you know some of the teams there France Spain Germany yeah we have to be like it's hard for the ego and we might say maybe we just wasn't good enough as well.

31:04So when we had a difficult moment at a tournament, someone got sent off doing something rash or a team just broke us down and we lost our, you know, composure because you need to have everything to name names. So how much planning was ever done on things going wrong? People getting sent off divisions in a cam media stuff. How much was that ever discussed? Nothing. Not that I can remember. It's mental as it sounds like people will be at home going, what? Like, but it is that literally was we knew the system we was going to play you knew who was going to play more or less knew what us you know and we were going to do the same thing through all different stages of the games and that was it that's our far that's why I say tactically because we never changed to suit an opponent ever I'm like you could have done say in the qualifier when we played one of them games if we like Rio said we could have played Moldova or Macedonia and we won the game say we won the game 3-1 and if you've actually pulled the game apart and gone, hold on a minute.

32:03We could have had so much more possession if we'd have had Michael Carrick in there and we'd have allowed Rio Ferdinand to drop into the midfield and then come back. Why don't we work on that for the next game when we're playing San Marino at home? We're going to win the game because we can play with nine men and win the game. But if we can just get that part, we'll work for three days on getting that part of the team right. Bang, right, okay. We'll win the game and there was an improvement in that how he was getting out, you know, and then we'll take that into the next game and then we'll go right, there's the middle phase of the pitch.

32:34We've got Stephen Gerrard, we've got, what is their, and Frank Lambert, Owen Hargreaves, you know, we've got, what are their qualities? What can they bring? Let's try and get the best, let's find a system player. But it was none of that and that's why I hear what the lads are saying about the, you know, that could have been solved easily. But that goes to the point as well, you only enjoy being somewhere with football if you're winning or if you're playing well at least the ambience the environment's perfect the culture's great but they're getting beat every game and they don't look like they're ever going to win a game and the football's rubbish no one player will come out of there going it's a great great squad though love being here they'd all hate it did you three enjoy playing for England yeah I did I did I did I loved it I think like whenever I played like I say I knew I was sort of like a plan B at times but you can still be proud but like actually enjoy I enjoyed it I didn't I did I was unbelievably proud and the pride that I took walking out and again like I say knowing you're one of the best in your country never left me every time I stepped out for England every time I got called up there was a buzz but I never enjoyed the games I enjoyed training I like training and stuff I love training every day but I'd never come out of a squad and go I absolutely loved that camp because there was things that weren't good about the camp and there was the game where like I say we never had a game where I went you know what we are we're a problem for everyone play anyone we could beat anyone didn't feel like that yeah for me I was just selfish in many ways I just because I just thought I'm playing for England right and I just felt I'm playing with all these great players and every time I pulled on an English shirt I felt I was going to score I felt like I was invincible they couldn't defend you country.

34:27Honestly, international football and Champions League football, I'd prefer to play that than playing the Premier League. I just felt that they couldn't handle me. And I felt like I was, I'd go into games knowing I was going to score. I was on the right, I've got Joe Cole on the left, I've got Stevie behind me, Frank behind me. You know, I felt invincible, literally. And I'm talking purely from a selfish point of view. Like I'm not looking at the bigger picture. I'm thinking about me scoring, playing for England. And every time I went to an England game, I felt like it what defenders did you play against who you thought wow these are like superstar defenders who I thought are top top players that you went and played at international or champions league level and thought hold on a minute I've just torn you apart honestly like it sounds stupid but I don't even know if I should say it I know the answer I know the answer that's why I've asked you do you know I said this I said this the other day I'd prefer to play against Leicester right than Gary Cahill right which is which is but for my quality you know and what my qualities are I feel like I could I could I would dominate him and that sounds ridiculous I know it does but I'd get joy against him fabulous defender but I just felt like for my qualities they never saw anything like me in Europe you know and that's I used that to my advantage yeah there's something really interesting I think that's come out of this conversation which is that you know Peter felt almost lucky right to be playing for England and you've been very honest about that.

35:55Whereas, you know, you've got like a Rolls-Royce footballer, which what you were referred to as, who almost expected to play for England because you were at the absolute top of your game. Yet for Peter, there was freedom playing for England. For you, there was restriction playing for England. And I think that comes down to expectations. So I would love to know from the three of you what this tag of golden generation did or didn't do for all of you. Now going back to like, just to answer your question, previously did I enjoy I love playing for England but throughout my career I was always for some reason it was people would I always felt pressure going on to pitch whether it be for West Ham Chelsea because for some reason people always wanted to talk about what I couldn't do rather than what I could do so playing for England was not a problem pressure wise I played for that on my back the whole time that was the era that I felt right away I got maybe the first year in my career at 17 out the way where everyone was patting me on the back then after that it was more along them lines what couldn't do so playing for England I never felt the pressure but I could see it in other players a little bit more like I wasn't I didn't care whether I got a four or five or six genuinely like do you know what I mean so I think that's what helped me but the golden generation the burden was probably on Rio more John Frank Steve I don't think I think I was on the cusp but I played 56 times, but if I went and done something, scored a goal or made a goal and assisted it, it was everyone patting me on the back, but it wasn't expected of me.

37:27Wayne Rooney, the spine of the team, bore the brunt of that. In the Premier League, these boys were superhuman levels. It was like Rio and JT, like Lamps and Stevie, Rooney, Owen. What they did, that spine in the Premier League, was so unbelievable that everyone just assumed that that would happen for England and they'd all do the same and do it. And that's hard. It was hard to replicate. When people hear that Mint Mobile plans are only 15 bucks a month, a lot of people then ask, what's the catch? Well, honestly, I'm wondering the same thing. But there's no gimmicks. There's no hidden fees. There's just unlimited talk, text and data on the nation's largest 5G network plus an award-winning care team.

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40:51Explore the full Defender lineup at LandRoverUSA.com. I grew up watching John Barnes and Chris Waddell for England, two of the best, most talented players of their generation. Booed for England. Yeah. Told they shouldn't be playing. so when I got into the England team and we were labelled the golden generation it wasn't our fault it just was in that it was labelled it it was almost like well I've seen this before I've heard this before I've seen big talents before me better players than me booed and told they shouldn't play for England so I can't moan about it and but I didn't find it a huge burden it was just mainly in press conferences when people would talk about it it would come up I'd never thought about it outside of that but I think some people dealt with it different some people felt that pressure a bit more um probably more attacking players as well because there's an expectancy you've got to go and produce something a lot of defenders are reacting to people's movements and strikers whereas as an attacking player you've got to go out there and score and if you don't you're meant to be the golden generation so um it's difficult for them i'm sure more than myself you have to expect criticism i think far too many players and people that are involved in the game nowadays is almost like oh you shouldn't say that about me i 100 agree if it's personal it's over the line it's too far if we're talking tactics and the way your game is and whatnot and about the 90 minutes you're an open book you should be sitting there and going you know what if i can take anything out of it great if i don't agree with it close the book move on don't take these things personal expect it especially in a tournament when you're that bubble expect the criticism is going to come and use it as fuel yeah i do think sort of like so there's a heart back onto where we were playing but i do think some of the some of the stuff was was below the belt like like some of the some of the things were were nasty i remember personally going through a lot a lot my mom stopped buying some newspapers yeah what what's that caricatures and things like that even just complete mick taking you know like schoolboy stuff you know but like it affects you, it becomes a thing, you know, and like, I think it was, it's definitely an issue for me.

42:59I, I, I struggle. In what way? What do you mean? Well, I went from playing, you know, for Southampton and as soon as you get in the England squad, like things are, are heightened. Obviously, then I went to Liverpool and I went for a spell of not scoring goals, which was well documented and I just became a figure of fun, like instantly. And then, yeah, and obviously you've got to remember my mum and dad are in the crowd and I remember coming on at Old Trafford and getting booed by my, by my own fans and it was probably a little bit of that between Liverpool and Man United like that kind of rivalry but that was obviously crept into the stands so my mum and dad and sister are in the crowd and the whole England the whole stand and the whole the whole stadium are booing me because of you know maybe a little campaign sort of against me to not be an England squad so like let's be honest right I'm like a 24 year old kid right I'm getting booed by my own fans and I'm thinking about my mum as I'm coming on to play for England were you yeah that was her first start she's in tears you know and I knew she knew it was upset and she didn't come to an England game for the next five six times but these are all things that sort of going on behind the scenes but for me personally obviously I don't show any weakness I'm like I'll come on the pitch and I'll do as well as I can and I don't show I don't say to any of the lads it wasn't a game you scored against Jamaica no it wasn't I wish it was but like I say like that I had to sort of deal with that and then I'm obviously really proud of myself coming back from that and then showing those people coming through at Liverpool, started to score again and then staying in the England squad and playing at two World Cups after that.

44:30That, for me, is a great sense of achievement. There's a famous story that Jack Charlton, when he was first picked for England, he went to Alfa Ramsey and said to him, why have you picked me? Alfa Ramsey said, I don't pick the best players, I pick the right players. So what would you describe the right characteristics then for the right England players to succeed? Personality. Personality above. And what I mean by that, I mean a player who's going to go and demand the ball, demand to be put on the spot and the spotlight. You know, it could be a centre-half, whether he's the one in the last five minutes who you know when that ball's going to come in, he's going to put his face in the right area and get the ball.

45:14It's going to be a midfielder. when we're losing 2-0 against Germany who's going to come on demand the ball when Wembley's turning you know it's a centre forwarder you know when he goes through one-on-one he's going to he's going to choose the right thing the players who've got the personality above the ability and then you need to look at the players who've done that you know consistently you know On that subject though do you think that what you touched on there is the right is the right player for that particular game or that particular personality. But do you think that, you know, all the players that we had, maybe it might not fit the right system, but all those players would just fit in because they're such good players.

45:56You know, do you think we could have perhaps dropped one of those sort of Galacticos, if you like, in the Premier League and played an Owen Hargroves? Yeah. Or dropped one of the forwards or, you know, do you know what I mean? Like we felt, I felt like, and it was a situation that was levelled at us quite a lot. Yeah. we're just putting all the best players together and down and crack on that definitely happened but I do think and you could have affected that by playing a different you could have appeased that by playing a different shape if we had a diamond in midfield or created a free to create overloads in midfield it might have worked but I totally agree with you I don't think the managers were strong enough at the time to go right hold on Bex you've got to sit on the bench or Stevie or Frank go on you've got to sit on the bench he just was almost like can't do that I remember sorry talk about that I remember when I first started playing we played Northern Ireland and away at home we went it was nil-nil leading up to the game and I was playing really well but it was Beck, Stevie, Frank and me in the midfield I spoke to Kieran Dyer after the game and it was after I think I scored the opening goal after three or four minutes and Kieran but I was playing well you know you know you're playing well and I was it was coming but Kieran said to me Sven said to me go and warm up you're coming on for Joe do you know what I mean but that was Sven's mindset I can't take even though Joe's outperforming them in this game I can't take them off and Joe's looking like he's going to open up in the end I scored the goal we went on to win the game 3 or 4 1 and Kieran sat down but I wouldn't have known that Kieran come up to me and said to me you was coming off you know so that's the pressure probably we've felt that we had to work like I have to score in every single game because I know that if I don't I'm not coming back there was a loyalty to I think to go back to your question about what a player needs when you're playing for England I think the ability to forget mistakes quickly at that level there can be I've seen top players come through into the England squad or players that are terrorising the Premier League at a certain point in their career and they get to the England squad even just in training forget the game and they make a mistake and they do not recover and you think hold on that's the difference it's there up there get that right in terms of okay if I make a mistake erase it as quickly as possible don't let it have a hangover and you move on and you can build your performance off the strength or something like that and far too many have that hangover very good listen gentlemen thank you so much for that conversation great to reminisce great to reflect and I hope there's something in there that people will hear and it will inform them about how to deal with the modern generation of England players and who knows what will happen in the next few weeks, eh?

48:45I love that conversation and some of the things that the guys talked about there, whether it was the sending off injuries or just sheer bad luck, they were all things that could have been prevented by just anticipating them. That conversation was recorded a few years ago now when Jake worked with the guys at BT Sport or what we now know as TNT Sport. But listening back, what strikes me is how much of what they described, whether it's the fear, the media pressure, the lack of a tactical identity when players were sent off or the disconnection between players. How much of that has actually changed?

49:20I'll tell you, I've shared many of these insights with the England coaching staff and they've taken into account some of the feedback that the players have shared and started to anticipate some of the same challenges. If you haven't already, please consider subscribing. been it's a genuine help to us in being able to keep making fascinating conversations like this happen as ever thanks for being part of our high performance community look forward to catching up with you next time

50:34We'll see you next time. See who's listening and book host read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting Acast dot com slash advertise.