Why Saying No Is The Most Powerful Thing You Can Do

0:00Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including High Performance in their 2026 Creators We Love campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome. Nice to have you with us. Head to Apple Podcasts to see mine and Damian's favorite episodes from the last six years of High Performance.

0:18Welcome along to another episode of High Performance. Today we're explaining to you why saying no is the most powerful thing you can do because you would be amazed and we'll talk about them in a moment. We'll hear some clips from some legendary conversations on high performance. But you'd be amazed by how often even high-achieving, successful people who you think have got it all together spend too much of their time saying yes to things that they should say no to. How are you, Damien? I'm good, Jake. Are you? Yeah, really good, thanks. So the reason for having this conversation today is twofold, really.

0:50Actually, no, I'm going to say it's threefold. First of all, so many members of our community reach out to us, send us messages, DM us saying, I just say no, saying I just don't say no often enough. I say yes too much. The second reason for doing this is because I know it's a... The second reason for doing this is because I know it's something that you have struggled with again and again and again over the years. And the third reason is because, as you know, I too struggled with it until I saw a very simple single line on social media a few months ago that said, no is a one-word sentence. Right?

1:25And that was so good for me because I hate saying no like so many people. Being a people pleaser is kind of great. I actually think generally, Damien, it's great to be a people pleaser. Like how can it be a negative to want to make other people happy? But obviously there's a tipping point. And I always felt I had to over-explain myself when I was giving someone a no answer. So that idea that no is a one-word sentence, I think it's pretty powerful for people. I think it's brilliant.

1:51Jake Humphrey: I think there's a word for what we're describing today called sociotropy. Is that right? Yep. I looked it up because I knew that we were going to talk about this very topic. And you're right, it's something I've struggled with for a long time. So trying to understand it before trying to understand how to do something different was really important to me. So sociotropy is the concern with making other people happy and maintaining social order. So it's people pleasing in its very definition. And in one study, though, this is the interesting thing that really stopped me in my tracks, Jake, was that when participants were asked to identify their friend's best and worst characteristics, while most people associated with people-pleasers with having an agreeable personality and generally regarded it as being a positive thing, some people felt you could overplay that too much.

2:45Jake Humphrey: And surprisingly, being a people-pleaser was also seen as a negative trait. So the simplest method to know if you're suffering from sociotropy, listening to this today, is to know if you desire to please other people who's gone too far, where it starts to interrupt your own life or cause you difficulty, this episode is exactly the one for you. Okay, well, let's be honest then. Have you done anything this week where you said yes and you should have said no? No, I haven't actually. No, it's been a good week for that. And this is one of the things that we'll talk about a little while later on in the episode.

3:21Jake Humphrey: But what I've learned to do is to create a buffer zone. Because again, there's research on this that says that my instinct in a situation is just go, yep, okay, fine, and then I'll work out a way to do it. But just creating a couple of simple sentences like, can I think about that? Or can I just get back to you? Can I just check my diary? has sort of stopped me brushing headlong into just saying yes, even when it might come at a cost to me. What about you? Have you? Because I like the one sentence line. Oh, yeah. It's good to know, but I'm still rubbish at saying no when I should say yes. Go on.

3:57I won't say yes when I should say no. So what have you done? Well, I'll tell you where I do it a lot, but I don't regret it, is with the kids. So, for example, I've been working a lot this week. I've been in London. So we're recording this on a Friday. Yesterday I was in London and Ipswich the day before I was in Norwich, the day before I was in Switzerland, the day before I was in London, the day before I was in Norwich. So five days, five different cities every single day. And what I have said yes to every time is coming home and still taking the kids to school or still picking them up from school or still going to watch them play in their school sports or do their music.

4:31Now, that is definitely a bit of people pleasing there because I want my kids to know that dad was always there, right? But I actually, I'm not kind of including that in this conversation, right? Yeah. Because I think we have to be really clear about this. There are certain things where you're a people pleaser or where you're a yes person when you should be a no person, but they align really closely with your core values and with your purpose and your why, right? So I think in those situations, it's actually better for my health to say yes rather than no. But also this week, so a good example was a little while ago, I agreed to help out my mate on something last night.

5:10And I knew that I had to be on the 5am train out of Norwich. So I was up at half four, up at four, out the house at half four, on the train at five into London. I did a whole morning of work. And then I went across to Whisper Group and did a big presentation to the team there. And then I went and did a two hour event in the evening. Someone that I really like, that it was like, I wasn't paid for it. It was just like I'm going to help someone out and again I like it's really hard this because I don't regret the fact that I made the effort to do that but certainly today I've not been a great husband because Harriet got up um and sort of sorted everything out while I was kind of recovering in bed so I'm still struggling with this thing I'll tell you what I have learned which I think might be valuable for people um listening to this is when I have decided to give people searing honesty for my reasons for no help.

6:01Yes, no can be a one word sentence. I still haven't reached that point in my life because I still think it's kind of rude just to go no. Imagine if someone says to me on WhatsApp, hey, can you, or even on like a DM on Instagram, can you come to a charity event I'm putting on next month for some friends of mine? No. I mean, it doesn't sound great. But what I do say to people is I say, look, I'm really at the moment just trying to juggle a lot of things, you know, from the podcast to Whisper Group to my kids to my personal relationships. There are friends I haven't seen for a long time. You know, my parents are getting older and they need a little bit more attention.

6:32And I do need to spend some time on my own mental health and physical health, otherwise I know it impacts me. And I just, I'm going to be totally honest with you, by the time all of those things are stacked up, I know I could say yes to you now, but I will let you down or I won't give you the best of me. So I'm just going to have to say no. And I'm really sorry, but if things change, I'll come back to you. When I've sent that message to three or four people, every time they've gone, I feel exactly the same. I'm having all of those challenges myself and I don't blame you. Nice. Look after yourself and if ever anything changes, let me know.

7:02So I actually think that sometimes, you know when you dread a conversation that's never as bad when it actually happens?

7:09Jake Humphrey: Yeah, yeah. I feel like saying no is like a micro version of that every single day. We dread saying no because of the reaction. But actually it isn't as bad as we think it will be anyway, you know? Yeah, I like that. I certainly think that like being honest with people and just telling them exactly where we are at that moment in time. I remember a great line somebody said that, when people tell you they don't have time, it's a sign of where you fit on their priority list, not yours. And it's like sometimes you have to say, I know it's a priority for you, but it isn't for me at this moment. I've got other things like, in your case, the kids, your own mental health or the working commitments.

7:50Jake Humphrey: I think that's really honest. I think that a lot of people will be listening to this now, though, thinking, well, why do we do this? Why do we feel the need to people-please? Because I don't think, actually, that it's about trying to be nice or trying to make other people happy. I think there's much more a biological or a psychological version of this. And do you remember when we had Gabor Mate on High Performance? Oh, yeah. You spoke to him about the fact that you're a people-pleaser. And he kind of, he took you right back to your childhood and said, he was like, why did you find it so hard to make your parents happy?

8:23Do you remember?

8:24Jake Humphrey: Yeah, yeah. And I think you were a little bit, because obviously, you know, your mum's still with us, your dad sadly isn't, but you hold your parents in really high regard, as a lot of us do. And I kind of, I remember thinking, whoa, how's Damien going to react to Gabor basically blaming his mum and dad for the fact that he feels the need to be a people pleaser? Yeah, no, I don't. Again, I'll tell you another conversation we had. That Gabbo one made me reflect deeply. Alander Botton when we sat down with him and he spoke about some research from a guy called Donald Winnicott, a psychotherapist that talks about we all have two selves, the true self and the false self.

9:02Jake Humphrey: And if we don't create that space for the true self of who we really are, the person that goes, no, I don't want to do that. No, it's not an interest of mine. It's not something I want to do. If that gets shut down early enough, he talks about the consequence of it is the false self becomes one of two things you either become like a rebel where you just rip everything up and you sort of disrupt everything and often sabotage yourself or you become this chronic people pleaser and i think when i i did that conversation with gabor where he was challenging me and i was explaining i was a second of four kids and you know off my brother was a little bit older than me my younger brother came along very soon after me that even from a young engaged that I was almost like trying to get attention of my parents and people around and then I realized that I didn't have the space to have that true self so I became that chronic people pleaser of just trying to say yes just in the hope that people will give you time they'll give you a bit of attention and focus so it made me a lot more comfortable with it I think when you I think sometimes that that willingness to just do a bit of saving self-reflection and like not try and come up with some nice narrative but almost like challenge yourself to go actually this was me and this is my situation but i don't want to continue doing that is what we're trying to offer for anyone listening today as well i think um i think this is really interesting actually because um i'm just trying to find it now you're you're absolutely bang on with a quote that i saw a while ago about being a people pleaser here it is yeah um i love this where am i abandoning myself to keep the peace oh what do you think yeah but well again like i think that time you know like you staying on late to sort of uh chat with somebody when you know i need to be in bed here because I'm shattered or, you know, this idea of sometimes just sat in a room and not speaking up when you know that an idea doesn't resonate with you.

11:07Jake Humphrey: Like, there's so many times in life where they're often like micro-interactions, really small things, but when you start to abandon it, it's like you're dismantling who you are, your true self, right brick. And then often, what I've noticed, the pattern, if we go back to that Donald Winnicott thing of the true self or the false self, I've noticed that sometimes when I go too far with the people pleasing. I then swing the other way back and then become the manic rebel. Do you know what I mean? Then you start going, oh, fuck this, I'm not interested in this. I'm just going to tell them to fuck off rather than actually just have a conversation that says I'm just tired at the moment.

11:42I know. I've seen you do that only a few times. Not very many, I must be honest. It's not a common thing for you to start telling people to F off.

11:49Jake Humphrey: No, no, no. But again, if you start to recognise some of this stuff, you start to realise that make an intervention a lot earlier rather than wait to go to one of those two polar opposites because both of them cost you. I think so. I think you're totally right. There's a... I mean, I don't know if people can see this. I don't know whether there's video on this. I think there probably is, but I'm in my office recording it because I had a disaster in the room where I was meant to be recording, where I normally record. But you liked this poster on my wall, didn't you? Yeah, go on, read it. Read it to the...

12:21That is from one of my favourite artists. His name... You can find him on Instagram. Real Hackney Dave is his name. The artwork that he produces, I absolutely love. And this one says, just a gentle reminder to stop fucking about and maybe start doing that thing that will probably make you a much happier person. Through his artwork, he says these things that are great. And actually, that plays so nicely into what we're talking about. You just stop fucking about and do the thing that makes you a much happier person. You can't see this, but above the door in my study is another quote. Who said this, Damien?

12:53This, above all, to thine own self be true. That's a Shakespeare quote, isn't it? Indeed it is, which I think, again, is great for people pleasing because Shakespeare isn't going, hey, make sure you're liked. Hey, make sure everyone is happy all the time. It basically says, before you try and be loyal to everyone else, don't betray yourself. So I think, like, and this is, you know, we're going back here well over 400 years, right? And even then, Shakespeare was giving us a quote for people pleasing, to thine own self be true. because I think what we don't realise is the cost of this stuff. And we should go to some clips from our show in a moment.

13:28People go, oh, well, you know, sometimes I just say yes too often or I don't say no often enough. We're abandoning ourselves to be accepted by others. So therefore we think, well, this is fine because I'm gaining love because everyone likes me. Yeah, okay, you're gaining love at the expense of losing yourself.

13:43Jake Humphrey: Well, I mean, apply this politically, Jay. Think about recently we've had Keir Starmer step down as prime minister and we had him on the podcast and we both came away and thought he was a really decent, authentic man. You know, we enjoyed his company, we went for a drink with him afterwards and now we've got Andy Burnham potentially taking over from him. And look at the debate, people just want to know, are you somebody that acts with integrity? Are you somebody who does what you say you'll do? It's such an important factor that we look at it for our political leaders and often we don't hold the mirror up to ourselves and ask, am I doing what I say I'll do?

14:23Jake Humphrey: Am I behaving with integrity and authenticity? So it's a question that we all need to wrestle with and hopefully some of these clips we'll look at will sort of give us pause for thought and give us a chance to have that reflection. Okay, well, let's do it then. Let's go to a clip from Barry Hearn. How does that sound? Do you like the sound of going straight to a bit of Barry Hearn? Yeah, well, can I just say that? I remember reading in his book his top 10 rules for life. And I loved them because he talked about he was at an event in New York and he'd been asked to go and do a Q &A session and he jotted them down on the back of a piece of paper when he was in the taxi going there, just so he gave himself a structure to think about.

15:06And he said that one bit of reflection allowed him to almost identify

15:12Jake Humphrey: what were the values that were most important for him. So when I heard them, I thought they sound like the ideal blueprint for the interview that we could do with him. So yeah, let's listen to this one. Because this is the perfect clip, actually, for talking about putting yourself above pleasing other people. So this clip you're going to hear is Barry talking about the fact he was offered£30 million to sell his business. And he walked away from that deal because yes, would have meant giving away his independence, working with people he didn't like. and you're going to hear him explain what happened.

15:44And after he did this, he didn't feel disappointed or sad or worried. He felt cleansed. Here is Barry Hearn. This is episode 168 on High Performance. And I told him the truth. I said, I don't like either of you. And I don't really want to work with people like you. In fact, I don't even want people like you in my world. and they went oh the jaw dropped and they left and I felt cleansed I felt like I'd been baptized again you know waters had rushed over me and there was a stride come out and the chest came out and I thought you know isn't it lovely when you do acquire that discipline of mind where you can actually tell people exactly what you're thinking and those that appreciate it will love you for it.

16:35And those that don't, you don't really want to be in their company anyway. I mean, that is a powerful line. I felt cleansed, Damien. I felt cleansed, like I'd been baptised again. What does he say? You know, the waters have rushed over me. He's a great orator. He's a great storyteller. But it's a great reminder there that we all have morals. We all have standards. We all have beliefs until someone puts£30 million in front of us. And this is when it gets tested this is when you know whether you really are someone who puts yourself above other people and he's shown it in that moment you know yeah there's that great George Byrne quote in there

17:11Jake Humphrey: that I've got principles and if you don't like them I've got some others you know I think we're only as loyal as the options that we have so we can all say oh I'd never do that and then somebody dangles your 30 million pounds in front of you and you can do the mental gymnastics to justify it what I think was really interesting um from our chat with Barry with there is and just before that clip that we listened to, he talks about, he went and spoke to his wife and it was his wife that had that little bit of detachment who said to him, why are you doing this? This isn't you, you don't like these people.

17:42Jake Humphrey: And that gave him almost like the steel in his spine to go back and challenge these Americans and actually pull out of the deal. And again, I think somebody that's there just to remind us of, this is who you say you are, this is what you've told me you are when you're at your best. Just having somebody in our corner that can remind us of that is a great example of where we can often walk away from a huge life-changing summer money like he did. I'm going to let you pick a person from our back catalogue in a moment, but can I play one more clip of someone walking away from something? Go on. This is so different to walking away from 30 million quid by selling your business.

18:22And a very different person as well to Barry Hearn. I'm going to roll forwards a few episodes to episode 210, when Catherine Ryan, the comedian, joined us. And we were talking about the fact that she kind of had to come to terms with there being a lot of men doing the job in television that she would like to do. And instead of her pushing herself forwards, she actually stepped back. And this is a very different example of saying no. And in many ways, this is a selfless no. So I want you to have a listen to this from Catherine Ryan. There came a point in my career where I had to stop appearing on that show because I knew that there was just one seat for a woman at that time.

19:04And they always put us in the same seat, which is weird. They wouldn't even move us around. One seat. We know where that seat was. One woman on every episode. And I knew that if I was sitting in that chair that I was preventing one of my female peers from having a go. And being on that show was life-changing. You would receive so much more exposure and then people would come to see you on tour and it would really draw people in. It was a game changer of a show. And a lot of people use the word boycott. Catherine Ryan, boycott Smock of the Week. I never boycotted it. I just was realistic about the fact that if I want a different woman to be in this chair, it can't be me.

19:40What is your definition of high performance? Oh, I think it's competence and relentlessness. And I didn't know a lot about those things until I noticed a lot of people are lacking those qualities. They want to kick back. They can't complete tasks that you ask them to. I think being high performance is wanting to do a lot of things yourself and being able to execute those things well. That is a very important little clip there, I think, Damien, because there's the same underlying principle. Total clarity about her values, which makes the decision easy. So let's just change this slightly for a moment from talking about saying no or walking away.

20:24So actually, how do we do it? Well, we have principles that define us as human beings. We have people we won't work with in the case of Barry Hearn. We have putting women at the forefront of comedy like Catherine Ryan. We have protecting our own mental health like you have. We have protecting our family like I've tried to do. I think as soon as we understand ourselves better, then we can make these clear decisions better. And you know what? I think what's really helped me is that with a no often comes guilt. But when you have your principles, your values, when you have your why really clear in your mind about who you are, what you stand for, and what you do and don't do, it actually removes that guilt completely because you're like, well, I don't say no to those things.

21:07Because for the good of the world, for the good of myself and the good of others, my direction is this. And I think it was really helpful for Barry and for Catherine, but in totally different ways.

21:17Jake Humphrey: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's an idea that psychologists often talk about. They talk about the exit and the entrance. so when we walk away from something and we often feel that we like we focus on what we're leaving behind whereas instead to make ourselves happier going forward we need to focus on what we're moving towards what we're going to enter instead so like katherine's doing there she's not walking away from a hit television show she's walking towards a world where more women are seen and respected and understood and i think that then allows her to recognize that she's making the world a better place with that one small gesture of making a no so there's something quite powerful about it i i agree i mean again just for context do you remember that day when she turned up katherine she had nobody with her she just showed up on her own and i always think just watching how people treat the whole of the crew everybody that was there is a good indication of what type of person they are what their values are and she couldn't have been kinder warmer or more inclusive to every one of us that was there that day.

22:22Jake Humphrey: So I'm not surprised with that story she told us about trying to lift others up rather than trying to just put them down. For sure. Right, where should we go next? The clip I'd like to go to is, we referenced it at the top of the episode, the conversation we had with the brilliant Gabor Mate. So Gabor's one of the leading thinkers in terms of the world of psychology. And he spoke about how the inability to say no is a condition response. Let's have a listen to the conversation he had with me where he challenged me because if for nothing else, it's a good reminder of understanding that this isn't a personality trait.

22:59Jake Humphrey: It is something that we often learn in childhood. And if we learn it, well, we can look to unlearn it. Let's have a listen to him. The top we get was that I wasn't myself, that I didn't have the courage to be myself. I spent too much time trying to please others rather than, you know. So that's what I found as well, is that people didn't know how to say no to other people's demands, were suppressing themselves for the sake of being accepted by others. So therefore, this question, in important areas of your life, either in personal existence or in your work activities, where do you have trouble saying no?

23:40If I ask you guys, has anything come up? Do you have trouble saying no? Yeah, I mean, that's a real issue for me. Okay, so would it be, I'm not asking for details, but work or personal life, or both? Both. Okay, all right. So then the next question follows, which is what is the impact on you of your difficulty saying no?

24:03Jake Humphrey: It's often sort of leading myself to physical and mental exhaustion. Exactly. Now, are you both parents? Yeah. Okay. What's the word that the kid starts saying automatically at age one and a half? No. No. Yeah. Time to put your shoes on. No. Yeah, you're right. No, why is that? Because nature is smart. And nature knows that we have to develop a barrier behind which we can develop our own will and our own preferences. so that no that the child says automatically at that age is their little fence behind which they can develop their own sense of self and their own will. If we don't crush it, a lot of people think now they have a monster on their hands, they have to crush it.

24:50So now we have people that don't know how to say no. So the impact is exhaustion, fatigue. It could be frequent colds, it could even be serious illness. So it's an important little thing that you're not saying there. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. I think that's very helpful for people, that clip. Don't you, Damien? Because I think sometimes, and I've heard, I've said this about myself, I know you have as well, I'm a people pleaser. We need to reframe this as, I've learned to be a people pleaser.

25:20Jake Humphrey: Yes. Yeah, just that one buffer. You know, there's some really interesting research on it. Again, like I say, this conversation that we had with Gabor, like when I went away from that that day it did make me reflect on it for a lot a lot longer and go and explore ways in which we can do it and I found some really interesting research where people evaluated the effects on over 100 people responding to the words I don't versus I can't so they did it in relation to sort of getting people to make happier healthier eating choices so some people that did it were told that when they were offered sort of a dessert Some people had to say, I don't eat dessert, rather than, I can't eat dessert.

26:02Jake Humphrey: And then what they found is that just that one simple tweak in the language that they used, was later on, when people were given a healthier snack, over 60 % of the people who said, I don't, preferred the healthier snack than the dessert. So the point they're making is that, a bit like what you were saying about offering some context rather than just saying no. Sort of just listening to the language we do of saying, I don't do that. It's something that speaks to your values and people understand. There's a barrier. There's a line there that I'm not willing to cross. Talking about I can't do it is almost like I could, but I'm making a choice and it feels like I'm denying myself.

26:41Jake Humphrey: So I've learned just to say to people, I don't work later than 10 o 'clock at night. I don't respond to messages after 10 o 'clock at night. It's not that I can't do it. I just don't do it. And I think what you see is that people understand where those boundaries and barriers are. and most people I've found are not willing to disrespect them. The final thing I'd like to say about this before we go and talk about a few other things is I also don't want people to listen to this and be harsher on themselves. I want them to be kinder to themselves. Like, I think this stuff's really hard. I actually think that the kind of people who are people pleasers are the kind of people that I like.

27:20They're the kind of people that I like to be around. I really like their energy. I like their desire to make other people happy. I don't think that, on the whole, being a people-pleaser should be seen as a toxic trait. I think it should be seen as something that can be toxic to you if you allow people-pleasing to dominate your thinking and take over your life and stop you from doing the things that you really want to do. But I think, on the whole, having other people at the centre of your world is not something that we should denigrate or criticise. I just think we need to talk about the fact that there often is balance in this.

27:54Jake Humphrey: yes definitely i don't like all these things i think i think some of this stuff requires us to understand that are you are you pleasing the right people in your life you know is the first thing to understand i know i've spoken before about when i've spoken to athletes that are getting abuse off social media and how they cope with it first thing i do is say write down a list of the people that matter most in your life and most people when they do that come up with their like parents, partners, children, best friends, whatever it is. And then I say, would they speak to you in the way that you're upset about on social media?

28:27Jake Humphrey: And the answer is, of course they wouldn't, because they understand you. They know how to speak to you properly. They know what you're trying to achieve and are only encouraging for it. So they've earned the right for you to please them as well. Anyone outside of that list, well, they've not quite earned the credibility where you should be sacrificing your own happiness or inconveniencing your own day. and that's not selfish. That's being selfless in many ways. Very good. So there you go. Those are our thoughts on people pleasing along with a few clips from our back catalogue. I think what we're really saying is it's great to choose connection.

29:01It's not great to choose connection at the cost of yourself. And I think learning to disappoint people without abandoning yourself is really important because I think the goal in life, as Damien's just mentioned from some of these athletes and certainly I've felt this myself, is not to be liked by everyone because it's impossible to be liked by everyone. and I think the goal in life is to be someone who you like, someone that you respect, and someone who doesn't lose themselves. Damien, I just want to roll back a few episodes to when we had Liam Lawson on the show, because that conversation with Liam Lawson, the Racing Bulls F1 driver, continues to generate the most remarkable comments from the audience.

29:39And I think we should talk about... Yeah. And as you know, like...

29:42Jake Humphrey: And why do you think that is? I mean, I'm interested, like... Well, it's because there aren't very many platforms like high performance. And I think that a lot of people make up their mind. So, you know, I've spoken to you, haven't I, about the word sonder. Yeah, go on. Tell us again. So, sonder is this understanding that everyone's 3D. So, everyone has got their issues, their concerns, their fears. They've got a backstory. They've got hopes and dreams. They've got people that love them. They've got stuff that we will never see and never understand. Yet, we see them as 2D individuals. So, people don't see Liam Lawson as a human being.

30:13They see him as a Formula One driver. and so a few years ago he was in an interview and someone said who who are you friends with um in f1 and he went i'm not here to make friends i'm here to win and it was kind of clipped out of context there's no sort of humor to it and it i think it made him look arrogant which i don't think he is and then he had a few like run-ins on the track and you know f1 since drive to survivors become more partisan you know people really support certain drivers yeah and he seems to be on the receiving end of a lot of criticism. And actually, I think that was a concern for him and I think it was a concern for the team.

30:49Do you remember before we started, we were asking him about what life's like in F1 and I said, is there anything that you hate? And he went, public criticism. Then he goes, we're not recording yet, are we? Do you remember? Yeah, yeah. And he looked really like, oh, like it gets him all the time. I'm really pleased for him. I'm really pleased for Red Bull. I mean, a good quote that I saw, sorry, a good comment that I saw from a member of the audience. They said, I came for the Red Bull story. which is the story of Liam being fired by Red Bull. I came with the Red Bull story. I stayed for the human being.

31:17Liam Lawson reminded everyone that F1 isn't only speed, it's sacrifice. And you know that clip where he talks about the letter from his brother?

31:26Jake Humphrey: I mean, let's just say for a moment when he did that, like what it felt like in the studio, didn't it? I know like we often say to each other, just let silence to the heavy lifting. But that silence just for that period when he told us was really quite palpable, wasn't it? And if you haven't heard it, I'd suggest you find it or you listen to the episode. But basically, Liam's brother wrote a message to their parents saying, if I was a driver like Liam, would you also spend more time with me? And it was, I mean, his family have sold their house and still don't own a house because they paid for his racing.

31:59It's a reminder of the sacrifice to get there. And actually, another comment from a member of the audience said, this conversation completely changed how I saw Liam. Behind the headlines, the pressure and the noise, as a young bloke carrying the family sacrifice and still refusing to give up. And then another one, one of the most honest F1 interviews I've watched, the bit about happiness hit hard. Chasing your dream shouldn't mean losing yourself along the way. And I've thought a lot about this concept of Liam saying that the one thing that F1 has cost him is happiness. And I still don't know how I feel about it.

32:29I'm like, I don't know. Like, good, hard stuff shouldn't come for free. But it almost feels like happiness should never be the price. but maybe I'm wrong

32:40Jake Humphrey: yeah no I agree I mean I've thought about it a lot because it sort of does make you stop and like reflect at a deeper level and I think you know he's 23 years of age so I get that at that age there's millions of things he could be doing millions of distractions that he could be sort of enjoying so I can see how it might it might look like it's trading happiness and the weight of the family and the sacrifices they've made I do get that but I hope that as he gets a little bit older you know we know our brains don't mature till we're 25 I think he'll start recognising that it's the journey and it's not the destination that he should be proud of and like I remember when we spoke to him after the recording I went mate you've already won like you're here you're in the like from where you've come from to where you are today you've already won you've won at life so sort of give yourself credit for that rather than keep looking at where's like where next to go it's the example you often use you know about the Edmund Hillary story getting to his upper Everest and looking to see where was the tyres so he could scale that I think that's that's natural for guys like Liam but I hope a bit of maturity for him allows him to be able to give himself far more credit than what he seems to have done yeah I'll finish with this comment from an audience member holy gut punch hell definitely a few moments there where I felt my throat getting tight.

34:07It's so hard not to see it from the outsider point of view. You're 23. What do you mean? The cost of your dream is happiness. The anecdote about the car from his brother was devastating. And like they tried to laugh it off a little after, but you could see it really affected all three of them. Liam talking about people having to give up dance. His sisters having to give up dance as well. The sacrifice of his family obviously weighs on him. You can tell. And I think we think, oh, once you've made it to F1, that sacrifice will be gone. You won't carry that anymore. You never don't carry the sacrifice that your family have made to help you live your dreams.

34:40Jake Humphrey: Yeah, that was really powerful, isn't it? I really loved that. And again, I just want to, if he is listening to this, to Liam, just say thank you for trusting us that you wanted to come and open up and share your vulnerabilities with us. We don't take that for granted. That conversation for me is the epitome of what high performance is about, right? Yeah. High performance should be big name guests, well well-known people, people who've already had a platform, people that we think we know, right? We know that if we have those people on this show who everyone already has an opinion about, then, you know, people will come to watch them like they did with Liam.

35:16But then the key for us is to give people something else. It's to educate the audience. I think it's to show our audience that people at the top of their game are still struggling with the same things that all of us are struggling with. And that high achievement doesn't mean high happiness, high flow, high joy. You know, everything comes at a price. And I reckon Liam Lawson slots straight in for me in the top five episodes that are the best example of why this show exists.

35:43Jake Humphrey: Yeah, definitely. And, you know, if you're listening to this and you enjoyed it, we've got some other crackers coming up soon, haven't we? We've got one guy that's stepping in to the MMA octagon in a couple of weeks' time. His first ever world title fight. And again, it wasn't a conversation about MMA, was it? No, far from it. again when you see Ian Machado Gary's name come up on the on the podcast list tune into that one absolutely alright Damien thank you so much thanks mate really enjoyed that as always I enjoy these yeah I do I love them as well and make sure that next week you say no to things yeah definitely that you need to say no to and you too because I know that you've been working incredibly hard I've noticed actually you're very good at saying no to my calls when I ring you yeah Oh, not in again.

36:34Reject. All right, have a good one. I'll just say before we disappear, almost everyone that enjoys this podcast, they don't subscribe. It doesn't cost you a penny to subscribe. It helps to grow our show. It helps us to have bigger reach, attract more incredible people. And all we ask is if you subscribe to this show, we will do our best to give you the very best podcast full of honesty, full of trust, designed purely to improve your life. not to lure you in with you know dodgy clickbait headlines or bring you sort of strange so-called experts where we don't really know if they are you know we want this to be a place of honesty and openness and trust so we will continue to do that and all we ask you to do please is just hit that subscribe button and come on this journey with us remain humble curious and empathetic and we'll see you next time for another episode of high performance

37:30you