Zak Brown: How McLaren Shocked F1 & Norris vs Verstappen Rivalry (E312)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. slugfest is at the end. There's no team I would have rather raced in that final race for the World Championship than Ferrari. We're going to enjoy this, but Formula One's all about tomorrow, so we're focused on tomorrow.

0:45That was the voice of McLaren racing boss, Zac Brown, who joins us fresh from an historic weekend in Abu Dhabi. I'm Jay Comfrey, and alongside our expert, Damian Hughes, we bring you a conversation with the man who's just led McLaren to their first Constructors' Championship in 26 years. Zach enjoyed his own racing career before moving into the world of marketing back in 1995. He then joined McLaren back in 2016, taking the helm two years later and helping stabilise the team in turmoil before making history this season. And it is history, Damien. I mean, this is truly one of the greatest moments in sport, right?

1:23You know, in 2020, McLaren were in serious financial trouble. In 2022, they finished fifth in the Constructors' Championship. They had a terrible start to 2023. Even this season, they started miles off the pace of Red Bull. After six races, they trailed them by 115 points. So how did they do it? Well, prepare to hear Zach describe how he acted when poisoned biscuits, as he calls them, were damaging the team. How he lent on sporting legends to build his own self-belief. What he said behind closed doors to Lando and Oscar, his drivers, to keep them on track and how he deals with confrontational rivals in the sport of Formula One.

2:01Here it is then, a fascinating insight into life at McLaren and the instant reaction to becoming the world champion as we welcome Zac Brown to High Performance.

2:14Well, Zac, World Champions 2024, look, you've had a few days for it to sink in. How does it feel? It's unbelievable. I think it's still sinking in. And it was a bit of a heart rate exercise getting there, especially the first lap. So for those that all started to congratulate us about with 10 races to go, I kept saying, you never know. And this thing came down to the last lap. Well, let's just talk then, before we talk about how you've done it, I just want to talk about that final race briefly. So you were on record as saying before the race, you felt like the circuit suited the Ferrari. You then get one of your drivers tipped around in the very first corner.

2:53So Lando's in the lead and has to win the race for you to win the Constructors' Championship after waiting 26 years to do it. Do you feel helpless on the pit wall? Do you feel like you just don't want to even watch what's happening? What's it like? Yeah, I would have liked to have not watched, but I had no choice. It would have been noticed if I wasn't on pit wall. But yeah, it was funny. Brundle came on during Sky and I was like, that's 28 laps left. He's like, that was actor's 18 laps left. I was like, oh, it feels like 28 laps are left. So it was the longest Grand Prix ever to watch. That's for sure.

3:29Zach, were you very conscious about the image that you presented in those high pressure moments? Yeah. I mean, not necessarily, you know, more towards my team. You know, there had to be a bundle of nerves like myself. I would not want to have been on the pit crew who needed to deliver a two-second pit stop, and they did. I mean, talk about pressure. I mean, while a season, of course, is made up of 24 races, you could say we were about seven-tenths away from losing the championship because Lando came out 1.6, 1.7 in front of Carlos. And Carlos was fast. And I think with the dirty air there, even though I think Lando had a little bit left in the tank, had he been in DRS, I don't think we would have been able to defend it.

4:23The Ferrari is very quick in a straight line. Lando gets in the dirty air. So to imagine being, Carlos comes in, he does 2.2 second pitch stop. You know, you need to better that. I mean, what pressure. And they stepped up, delivered the best pit stop of the race. And that's kind of what the team has been doing all year. It's been amazing. And Zach, there's so much conversation happening on the radio that we never hear. Is anything said to that pit crew just before that pit stop as a reminder that the entire title rests on this moment or not? No, I think you got to be business as usual. I mean, it's easy to say.

5:01And of course, that's not exactly, you know, So everyone knows it's not business as usual, but I think I had a lot of people ask me, what are you going to do different for this race or the last couple of races? I think you've got to keep doing what got you in the position to where you are. The minute you start changing your game, it's like, wait a minute. We were doing great pit stops all year. We've got the world record. We don't need to tell them what's on the line. I think they knew that. And to just see them deliver as did the old team, as did Lander, right? Adam and Carlos was never more than a walk-up away.

5:38And then with Lando knowing, with Oscar's unfortunate incident in turn one, you know, over to you, right? And for the second, we would have lost it. I think it would have either been a tire, they'd beat us by one, but if they would have gone to the count back, it would have been Ferrari would have won six, we won five. So the pressure that put on everyone was immense. They all seemed calm. I can't imagine they didn't have been seeing butterflies. All right.

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7:48What about before the race on Sunday morning? Would you mind taking us into the final conversation between you and the team and the messages that were shared in that place? yeah i mean we sat down with the drivers and and kind of discussed or you know we were never worried about the two of them racing each other and doing something silly because they've been awesome uh the two years they've been racing together you know they raced each other hard but had never done anything silly so it was more about how do we uh protect against carlos who's coming max who's coming. It obviously came a little bit too hard and overcooked it.

8:27So it was more about how do we get through the corner first and second and help because it's a long straight set. The second sector was our weak spot, if you'd like. And with cars bunched up and everyone getting a draft with everyone being so close, it was imperative that we didn't just get to turn one first and second, but we got out and cleanly. So we spoke, you know, pretty much about that. And, you know, my guys did their part, but unfortunately Max was a bit overzealous and turned Oscar around. And so it was drama from the first corner onwards. And can I ask you about how you built belief in the team, Zach?

9:12I know that you've been working with some ice hockey legends, but I'm interested if you could explain for our viewers how you've gone about building that? Well, I think it's, you know, leading by example, surrounding yourself with great people, trusting your teammates, empowering those that you know are better at their job. You know, everyone on that racing team is better at what they do than I could do. I play my role. So I think it's about driving the right culture, the right momentum. You know, of course, the 24 races didn't come down to seven tenths of a second, but it kind of did. You know, everyone always in sports, the last play, it's what made her break.

10:02Obviously, over the course of the season, there's lots of things that you could have done differently or if this wouldn't happen. But everyone does look at that last inning, the last two minutes of the game, the last lap. And, you know, so our last thing, and if you'd like, was we had to pull off a two-second pit stop and kind of get, you know, could have done a 2.7-second pit stop, which isn't a bad pit stop. And that could have been the difference between winning or losing the championship. So I think it helps the team understand, which they get, how much incremental improvement and how to find these margins on it.

10:38You all this work, and it came down to seven seconds after 24 races. I believe that you've been calling upon the advice and the wisdom of other sporting legends to help you prepare for winning this season. Would you tell us a bit more about it? Yeah, I've got a handful of buddies that have been there, done that, won and lost. You know, Albert Pujols, the baseball legend, Mark Messier, who just came out with a new show called Game 7, which are all the iconic moments, teams, pressure. And what they all said was they're all nervous. So anyone who says they're not nervous, keep doing what you're doing.

11:21And it's all about execution and passion and not emotion. So it was more, you know, these are legends. Andrzej Kopitar has won a couple of cups. Of course, Mark Messier has won a ton of cups. And Michael Strahan is an NFL legend. So all these guys have won their Super Bowl, Stanley Cups, World Series. and they all kind of said the same thing, which was keep doing what you're doing to get you where you were. Don't get too high or low on the emotions. Execute, execute, execute. Don't give up and be unbelievably prepared. And that's exactly what we did. So I think more than anything, it was just kind of comfort listening to these guys who have lived it.

12:06And it's pretty cool. And of all the advice that they gave you, Zad, Was there one piece that you felt that you didn't know that did surprise you? Not really in the sense of, you know, it's a lot of kind of common sense. Probably the part of how much they all say they're nervous because they don't show it, right? I mean, these are legends. Not only have they won the big stuff, these guys are all Hall of Famers. And so you certainly don't see them sweat. And so I think the amount of sweating that they actually did, maybe that was a little bit of a surprise. And then the biggest takeaway was, you know, execute, don't do anything differently.

12:50Just because you're in the finals now, keep doing what got you to the finals. Don't try and do something different. So that was probably the biggest thing. Let's talk then a little bit about Andreas there. You know, he came into the team and you just finished fifth in the World Championship the season before he joined. When he arrived, your car was five seconds behind the pace of the Mercedes. I mean, he, along with you and the rest of the team, has been instrumental in the turnaround at McLaren, a turnaround that the sport has very rarely seen in its long and illustrious history. Without embarrassing him too much, and for the benefit of our viewers, many of whom do work in leadership roles, Zach, what are the greatest things that you've seen him do and the biggest things you've learned from Andrea that we could all learn from?

13:33It's a long list. He is an amazing leader. So first, he technically understands the sport, the car, the development. I mean, he's very technical. He's extremely performance-oriented. He knows how to push things out of the way that just aren't going to add performance to the race team, the race car, the racing drivers. He's just not interested in things that slow you down. He's not interested in excuses. He's a fantastic communicator, not only in communicating, but listening. And because he has a very good technical understanding, when he talks to the different departments, he can kind of hear and see it through their lens, lens, understands where they're coming from.

14:25Extremely hardworking, demanding, very polite in his delivery, but very firm in his delivery and very calm under pressure. So when you put that all together and you have, you know, everyone kind of looks to him, all right, what are we going to do here? And they know he knows what he's talking about. They know he's either done it or would do it. They know they're not kind of interested in reasons why not. And he keeps the politics out of the race. He's got a great way to donate the poison biscuits, which is kind of the politics of the sport. And of course, you get politics in any business or team.

15:07So you want to keep that out. But then also in our sport, maybe more so than others. I mean, and I don't claim to be experts in others, but while we're trying to go as fast as possible, there is an element to trying to slow the competition down. And you do that through a variety of tactics, if you like. So he refers to them as poison biscuits, and it's don't eat the poison biscuits and have a winner's mindset, not a loser's mindset. When something goes wrong, the loser mindset, quit, get angry, you blame someone. Hey, mistakes happen. No one's perfect. So one department might get it a little wrong one weekend and another, another driver might do this.

15:50And it's like, you know what? We're a team. We win and lose together. And so when you kind of roll that together, I think you get the result that he's delivered. And it sounds in many ways, Zach, that even though it's obviously a highly technical cutthroat sport, you're describing somebody with high levels of emotional intelligence. Is that a fair observation? I think it's very fair. You know, we happen to be in Formula One, but his skill set is transferable. I think they're just awesome leadership skills. You know, a CEO, I'd like to think I'm a good communicator, a pretty good listener, drive people hard, empower them.

16:29So I think you can kind of, and it's just, you know, it's easier said than done, right? Everyone does the kind of, you know, work hard. You need to be really effective, not just work hard. And you need to motivate people. You need to hold people accountable. And it's just very well balanced in all those areas. Can I talk about the emotional intelligence that you've had to use with your two drivers? Because it's one of the unique vagaries of Formula One for any of our listeners, because we have many different types of people listening to this show. For those that aren't au fait with it, you know, it's two people really performing as individuals, but knowing that they're operating in a team sport.

17:04and you had two drivers who both wanted to go for the world title. You've got Lando who's been there for six years, who you believe in and always have done from day one, Zach, and you've championed him. And then Oscar Piastro has come in with this incredible reputation and a really high ceiling of potential. So how do you keep Lando happy? How do you keep Oscar happy? How do you make a decision over when you allow a driver to fight for the title or not fight for the title? I mean, that's another whole sort of layer of management that you've had to deal with, aside from trying to just win races for the team?

17:36Yeah, it's been relatively easy. You know, it obviously isn't always easy when you have two drivers that want to go for the win and go for the championship. It adds pressure when, you know, you have a lot of media and third parties that aren't behind the scenes, giving you their input, whether you want it or not. So you have some pressure and poison biscuits from the outside, if you like, of everyone saying, do this, do that, favor this guy, favor that guy. You know, and Dre is very good at kind of one race at a time, one day at a time. So that's how we tackled it. And obviously Monza got a bit exciting.

18:20Hungry got a bit exciting. But we made it through those with, you know, we got the first and second in Hungry. It just took a little bit of work kind of getting them in the right order. but we got there at the end. And then Moms is one that, you know, a one-two probably got away from us. But I think we learned from that. I think we maybe worked as crystal clear in our communication as to how we wanted them to race. So the drivers were doing what they thought was right. So we learned from that. It wasn't a devastating result. It was just probably one that we didn't maximize. I'm sure it'll be a challenge moving forward at times.

18:59They're great guys. They race for the team. They listen well. And, you know, I don't think there's a hard set rule of when do you do it. You know, we had a lot of people saying favor Lando now. And it was like, well, actually, Oscar, it's kind of only one race behind him. And we've got a lot of racing to go. So, you know, you don't want to, you know, we treat our drivers equally, fairly, transparently. and it is hard to figure out reading the room of, all right, Lando's got the best chance at the moment. You don't want to sacrifice Oscar's season. He's had an unbelievable season. So I think we did it at the right time.

19:40You know, what will next season look like? We have to have to see how next season plays out. You could have a, you know, situation where, you know, last time we had two drivers, I think it was Lewis and Fernando, finished second and third, and you could say, well, Well, Aggie favored one of those guys. You might have won the Drivers' Championship that year, but they tied. How do you decide? And I think our drivers, they want to win the World Championship the right way. They don't want things handed over to them. So Oscar supported Lando towards the end of the year. I thought the ironic thing was everyone was talking about Oscar supporting Lando, and then the next race in Baku, Lando supported Oscar.

20:23So it just shows you that, you know, you could only pre-plan so much. What's the biggest lesson you took this season in how to have those conversations? I don't know whether you see it as you dictating to them or you and Andrea and those two sitting around a table, whether you take the driver's thoughts on board first. Explain how that all works for us. Andrea and I do it, but we do it with the consultation to the engineers and the sporting director. You know, we don't kind of just lock ourselves in a room and white smoke comes out and Zach and Andrea have made a decision. We consult the team.

21:00We're very open and transparent with the drivers. We made them very much part of the process. So when we ultimately did decide, let's throw our weight behind Lando, we did that with Oscar's buy-in. So we would never... How do you get the buy-in? Transparency, communication, laying out how you're going to do it. kind of keeping score because, you know, and Lando did it on his own. I thought that was awesome when he, in Qatar, we actually probably heard on the radio because it was so close, said, hey, don't swap back in Lando because everyone was so close. Felt like, no, I kind of, I owe my championships over.

21:44He gave me the sprint win in Brazil, so I'm going to pay him back. And so I think that builds a lot of trust with the drivers, with the team. And, you know, so for next year, we're going to start just as we did this year. Both drivers with equal opportunity. And we'll see how the season plays out. Could get into a situation where one supports the other. Or we might find that they're racing each other for the championship down to the last race.

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24:18So Zach, somebody that prides himself on your communication skills, would you take us into that room and let us know, do the drivers want clear data when you're talking to them or is it more emotional connections that they're looking for? It's kind of all the above. You know, I think in racing, You need to have data that kind of leads you to your decisions, but you need to rely on race or instinct because data is not everything. Data is kind of – you get the data, then you can interpret it in different ways. You can kind of look at it in different ways. So it's all about transparency, communication.

24:57And when we kind of came up with what we were going to do, we did that with the drivers. Of course, we talk about it and here's what we think. But, you know, we'd sit Oscar Lando down. I said, well, what about that? And, you know, Lando didn't want to be gifted a race win. Forget about sprints. He was, you know, and Oscar was like, hey, I don't mind sliding from second to third if that helps. But I really don't want to give up a win. I don't mind if, you know, I slip from fourth to fifth. But, hey, it's a big deal being on the podium, so third to fourth. You know, so you kind of walk through the different scenarios.

25:33But then I think the big thing is as long as you communicate on the front end, then when you get into the race and things play out, it's already been discussed. You know, I think, you know, and I don't want to be critical of Red Bull because they're an unbelievable team. They've won more championships than I have personally, not McLaren, but myself. But if you look at Brazil, when, you know, I think they came on the radio to Max and said, hey, let Sergio buy. And Max was, you know, no way Jose. today, you know, it appeared to me, I could be wrong, I'm not on the inside, there appeared to me that maybe that wasn't discussed on the front end.

26:10And so the last thing you want to do is start talking to a Grand Prix driver about something you haven't discussed with two laps to go. Talking about the drivers, I just want to ask whether it kind of strangely helped you that the driver's title was over for Lando after Vegas? I don't think that made a difference because they're still both trying to finish first and second every weekend. They're both trying to finish first, but that's impossible. So I think we're still trying to finish first and second every weekend and maximize results. So yeah, maybe because they were having to kind of battle, but they were free to race.

26:53It was just, let's make sure we bring both cards home and maximize points. So So in some ways, it maybe made it easier because it was one less thing we had to talk about, you know, finishing orders and things of that nature. But, you know, it ended up being a kind of a storm in a teacup because we actually really didn't have to, you know, after Monza, when we then kind of were right, let's kind of roll this way. We never really had an incident again other than Brazil, which was quite smooth and where we were under pressure. Oh, my God, what are we going to do? We got to ask the drivers to move around.

27:31They're going to be upset. Make no mistake about it. Drivers, you know, their ideal situation is let me just race. But they were both great about it. The other thing that's very unique in your world is you've got a driver who's now realized he can't this season achieve his ultimate ambition of being the driver's world champion. But you're still in a team trying to fight for the title. Would you mind sharing how you helped Lando to reset, if you like, after that race and realize there is still something huge on the line this season? I think drivers and race teams naturally are very good at getting over disappointment quickly.

28:09So, you know, I've always found having once raced, just give me a little bit of space. So, you know, you don't really need to do anything, in my opinion, or at least with our drivers. I hear everyone's different. Just give them a little bit of space. I like to use humor. always put a little bit of a smile on the driver's face by cracking the odd joke or being a bit sarcastic just to take a little bit of the anxiety out of the room or the tension or whatever the case may be. But I found just kind of don't work too hard to try and get them out of the mood they're in because it's Sunday night, it's an emotional sport.

28:50Come Tuesday, Wednesday, when they need to be back in the race mode, they've you know they've they've unwound and ready to go they're used to kind of crashing cars and having to get ready for the next session so to speak and in terms of a much wider conversation you know just to lay on the line for people at the beginning of 2023 you had the slowest car on the grid it was unreliable it was difficult to drive you've now performed the most miraculous turnaround probably only equivalent to the the brawn victory in 2009 but that was a huge regulation change. So this is something achieved simply with pure hard work, dedication, hours and hours of hard work, and a lot of belief.

29:31So this season, you started thinking maybe 25, maybe 26, we might, you know, we can fight for the constructor's title. Suddenly after Miami, you're like, hold on, this is now. How do you go about changing the timescale, the timeline, the mindset shift of a thousand people working at Wokingzak? Well, I did it by ultimately changing leadership. You know, I think when we made our change and promoted Andrea, we changed our head of Arrow and kind of unlocked the potential of Pete Podromo in his department, which, you know, his immense talent was always there, But for whatever reason, we weren't unlocking the power that he could bring to the table.

30:21We moved our head of arrow out, our technical director, and of course, changed our team principle. And when you brought in new individuals, all they did was figure out, we've got 997 great people. We just need to provide them better leadership, more direction, more motivation. It was all there. It was kind of like we had the horsepower. We just had too much wheel spin. And Dre and the team brought in traction control. And then we put the power down and away we went. I'm loving the racing analogies here, by the way. Yeah, so not to kind of oversimplify it, but, you know, yes, we got a new wind tunnel in CFD.

31:03But, you know, the real big change was rallying the racing team and getting them all rowing the same direction, getting the Poison Biscuits out of the factory. And, you know, it was then just awesome performance from Austria onwards, which is really when Andrea and his team put on their first set of upgrades and they've been on fire ever since. So would you tell us a little bit about how you as a leadership team, Zach, have gone about making these big decisions when you're obviously acting under pressure? Yeah, I mean, I think it's important for people to understand that while we talk about the performance of the race car and the team and the drivers, it's a team effort beyond just the racing team, right?

31:51So to build a great race car, you need great technology. That comes from your sponsors. You got to have a great commercial department to be able to afford the great drivers, to afford the great people. You need to have a great communications department because the commercial is selling off your popularity with the fans. That comes from your communication department having great engagement with your fan base. We live in a cost-cap world. We have to spend our money very carefully. You've got to have a great finance department that's helping you predict your spend, where you're going to spend your money, what's bringing performance to the organization, not just the racing car.

32:31You have to have a fantastic HR department. They help you keep the poison biscuits out. You've got to keep the racing team. That team is not, again, just the racing team at the racetrack. The whole team is a team. You got to keep them motivated. You work-life balance, you know, mental health, health and fitness. And so you got to have an awesome HR department to help you retain your people, help you bring new people in. So all those things need to come together and be, to use another pun, firing on all cylinders, be able to put the power down, and then to have a great car that's got great aerodynamics.

33:09And listen, Zach, you were putting the power down against Ferrari. How special was it that the two most successful teams in the history of this sport and also two leaders, I think, in you and Fred with real mutual respect? How special was that fight for you? To me, that's one of the coolest parts of it. I've got a ton of respect for Fred. I have a totally admire Ferrari. Who doesn't? I mean, they are the most famous, iconic racing team in the world. And number two, in my opinion, and factually speaking, is McLaren. So, you know, I grew up watching McLaren versus Ferrari and Williams and Benetton from time to time.

33:50So there's no team I would have rather raced down to that last lap. They put up an unbelievable effort. Talk about kind of keeping their foot on our throat the entire race. They were running second and third with Carlos. And, you know, I'm a fan of Carlos. I'm a fan of Charles Leclerc. and you know i thought it was special because you've got a lot of politics are sport but there aren't much between mclaren and ferrari it was just a good old slugfest at the end and it was great to see the teams come together high-fiving each other and uh being on the podium with the ferrari drivers and that's what sport's about so there's no team i would have rather raced uh in that final race for the world championship in ferrari and i wonder if there's a lesson here because you built your successful business on relationships, on actually getting along, on shaking hands, not shaking fists, on building bridges, right?

34:43And then you've ended up in this sport where suddenly it's Zach v. Christian, Christian v. Toto, Zach v. Toto. It was actually nice to have two team bosses who really understood what each other were about. Like, do we need all of that nonsense, Zach? Do some people love it, do you think? No, I don't think we do. And it's not naturally how I'd like to go racing. But, you know, unfortunately, you know, kind of put my helmet on for a moment. You got to race drivers the way they race you. And there's some drivers that are easy to pass. There's some drivers that are hard to pass. There are some drivers that'll run you two wheels off.

35:22And then there's drivers that'll run you four wheels off, which is not cool. But sometimes the only way to race another driver that runs you four wheels off is to put them four wheels off. because that's the only way you kind of have to race them how they race you. So I'd much prefer to go racing how we went racing against Ferrari this year than some of the other squabbles we have. But, you know, that's how they go racing. So that's kind of the only way to beat them is to race them like they race you. Yeah, you're talking about on and off track there, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. 100 % using the drivers.

35:58Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, back when I was racing, I knew who I could, you know, race cleanly. I knew who would race dirty. And unfortunately, you know, racing a dirty driver cleanly kind of doesn't work out. So sometimes the only way to kind of get their attention is, all right, you're going to drive me off. I'm going to drive you off. And then, you know, you start to find some mutual respect. But I'd like to think a McLaren versus Ferrari model is the most sporting way. And I think while the fans love the politics, I also think they enjoyed, you know, the photobombing that we did to each other.

36:33That was totally impromptu. That wasn't rehearsed. That was that we were next to each other. And I'm a fan of Ferrari. I was, you know, happy for Carlos. And I'm kind of standing around. And Fred and I have this kind of thing going on that we celebrate each other's success in a sporting way. And it was like, I'm going to photobomb these guys. And then Carlos did it back. And I think the fans enjoy that. as much as they enjoy the Netflix strong. Look, Zach, talking of the right way and the wrong way to go about racing, it would be remiss of us not to mention a man who went about his racing in absolutely the right way, Gilles de Ferrand.

37:09And of course, the late, great Mansour Roger as well, who played his own very special part in McLaren's history. And I think having won the world title in the most incredible way, we should spend a moment just to remember those two men who played their part in your team's success. 100%. I would say Gilles Deferrin and Monserre Auger, two of the finest people I've ever met. Two people I've never heard anyone say anything negative about. Racers, loyal to their friends and family, fighters on the racetrack. But you talk about sporting people. Monserre and Gilles are two of the most sporting greats that you'll see in this sport.

37:52so I had my monster hat on on the podium thinking about Jill Andrea was carrying his Jill pin around with them and just two gentlemen that you wanted to be on the pit wall with they knew how to win they knew how to do it in a classy way and they were awesome individuals and I'm so happy they were there for us for our wins and our championship and Zach I am conscious of your time so I'll make this the last question Sir Alex Ferguson, the famous soccer manager, used to legendarily win a trophy and then he'd immediately start planning the day after to defend the title. When do you start planning to defend it?

38:35We've started. We're running in parallel paths. We're continuing to celebrate. We've got our holiday party on Saturday. And Dre and I need to go collect some constructors' trophies in Rwanda. But I'm back in the factory tomorrow. We're testing today in Abu Dhabi. So, you know, we're going to enjoy this. But Formula One's all about tomorrow. So we're focused on tomorrow. Zach, listen, this is an inspirational story for a guy who got himself a go-kart, went racing, created an amazing marketing business, sold it as a McLaren fan all your life to be sitting here now as the CEO that brought them back.

39:13The Constructors title after all those years is special for you. So save these next few days and thanks for your time. Thank you very much, guys. Thanks, Zach.

39:24What I really enjoyed about that is that, you know, we're speaking fresh a few days after McLaren have won the world title. You know, Zach is kind of, he's downloading his experiences of the season as you talk to him, isn't he? And kind of trying to make sense of all these little things that have happened. Yeah, I mean, what a privilege it is to get to speak to somebody fresh off such a historic victory like that. And I think some of the insights he gave us there were fantastic, both on a personal leadership level and also about leading a team and the impact on others. I mean, the bit that struck me was just his openness, talking about the group he has of mentors and other great sports leaders that were willing to share with him how they felt as much as what they did.

40:07I thought that was really eye-opening. The poison biscuit stuff, man. I mean, I'm just like, it's a great way to put it because you're sort of serving something to someone And if it's a biscuit, they don't necessarily realise it's poisonous, right? It's only when they start to eat it that they're like, oh, hold on, this isn't quite what I thought it was. I've really enjoyed that. And just the insight into how, you know, he's managed to keep Oscar happy whilst Lando was allowed to fight for the driver's title. How he managed to lift Lando after not winning the driver's title. And he said he did it with comedy and a bit of fun.

40:38And then making them both realise the importance of delivering on the day it mattered. I thought there was so much in that. Yeah, well, that was echoed in, you know, at the end when he wanted to pay credit to not just the racing team, he wanted to speak about the HR department, he wanted to speak about the commercial team, he wanted to give the credit as widely as possible. And I think that fits with the research that says he's building a real commitment culture there where you recognise that everybody is playing their part. You know, people often use that sort of much hammered analogy of the man sweeping up at NASA and when he's asked what you're doing, he says, I'm putting a man on the moon.

41:15I think if you're working at McLaren, whatever the role is, you're helping to build the fastest car on the circuit. I think that is an incredibly inspiring sense of purpose. Yeah, I think you're right. And even at the end there, when he says we're already planning for next season, I tell you what else I love to win. It's like we were seven tenths away from not winning the world title. And that I love because it's like all those races, all those months, all that travel, all those victories, all that development, and all that work, and your car comes into the pits and you know in that pit stop, you're seven-tenths of a second away from throwing it all away.

41:50If they mess that up and Landa comes out in second place, it's over. It's mad. It's magic. But then I think that's a good reminder though, isn't it? That if they'd have been seven-tenths of a second slower, would that have made them any less successful? And the reality is, if you listen to the process, the answer is no, we still followed our process. that, you know, like the dice didn't roll for us today, but the process is going to help us get better next year. And hopefully for them, you know, the gap will be even wider. Yeah. Well, look, Damien, we've just spoken to the CEO of a team who've honestly achieved one of the legendary feats that's ever been seen, not just in motor racing, but in sport.

42:31To recover from where they did, to be the best in the world this season, is stunning. So thanks for your time, mate. Thanks, mate. I've absolutely loved that one.

42:42So that brings us to the end of today's episode, which we recorded just a few days after McLaren's Constructors' Championship win. Zach joined us remotely from his home in the UK. So Zach, thank you so much for making time for High Performance. Don't forget, if you enjoyed that conversation, you can watch the conversations on the High Performance app, the very best place to enjoy our content. And we're back very soon with plenty more from High Performance. See you soon.

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