Sophisticated Marketing: Creating Content That Builds Community with Chris Do

0:0010 years ago, I made the decision to build my personal brand that was elevated, yet approachable, and reflected who I was, not just what I did. I created my website with ShowIt because it's true drag and drop freedom so you can easily build and update your site. Plus, their real human support team, game changer. Want to try it for yourself? Head to jasminestar.com forward slash show it for a 14-day free trial and first month free when you subscribe. Welcome to the Jasmine Star Show where we talk about life and we talk about business. And today we get to talk about the penultimate version in human form of creativity.

0:35Now, I know that sounds like a very big statement, but I am not by any stretch of the imagination over expanding the amount of words that I could use to describe the person who is sitting next to me. But before we get there, I like to introduce people in the podcast because podcast guests are people I know or I have experienced. So let me set the stage where in Beverly Hills, I've been invited to go to a mastermind. And like the nerd that I am, I'm sitting there in the front row with my notebook out and I am there to learn. except for the fact that when this gentleman walks on the stage, I didn't take a single note because I was so enraptured in the way that he spoke, his storytelling, his cadence, his brilliance.

1:15And so here I was, I've identified as being a creative. And what I saw was the complete counter opposite of somebody who's so strategic, high creative, business owner, iterative, and like a king of pivots and keeping it all together. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Chris Doe to the Jasmine Star Show. brother let's go oh my god what an intro i mean it's just the truth that was my story bro wow i'm like who dis where is this person coming i thought i was here i'm so happy you're here i'm so happy you get to break down business and creativity and how many times a person can change and still embody the core of who you are and like continue to grow in business and i think that's what i want to talk about so a little bit of um backstory this show is for entrepreneurs and my focus is the business of your business oh the business of your business because what i've identified and learned and like people tell me is like when they hear about somebody else talking about their business they're able to contextualize their business in relation to yours different even or the same and then when you talk about how you've marketed your business they start thinking oh contextually so this show is about getting disparate pieces and then at the end of the show we get to connect it and then we take an action item because on this show we're like one piece of action every episode that's going to change your business so when i look at your business so a little bit of a side note okay chris and i are mentors it is our second year together as mentors for a small business challenge hosted from the ups store and ink magazine and so we work virtually with our mentees and then each of us has three mentees and then one is selected to go to a city for a big show.

2:57Well, last year, Chris and I met for the first time in person in New York City. And in between recordings, Chris and I got into the business of his business. And I was like, ooh, I like what this guy is doing. So to bring everybody up to speed, can you describe your business? We'll get into your origin story, but let's add some context and then we... Okay, well, my business is in education. Not that different than yours, I believe. and we exist to serve mostly creative people who are looking to ditch their 9 to 5 and are in their 5 to 9 but don't know how to scale. And so we like to think that there are these skills that they need to learn to be successful entrepreneurs, things like marketing, negotiation, sales, pricing, those kinds of fundamentals that you would learn in business school.

3:44And if there's an equivalent in the universe, there's the D school that Stanford does, the D school for business. and then we want to be the B school for design. We want to be the exact opposite of them. So it's this concept that they understand the importance of creative lateral thinking, divergent thinking for business operators. And so they think they can teach business people left brainers, right brain kind of strategies. I think it's a lot easier to teach right brainers, left brain strategies because there's a couple of fundamental things if they were to execute on, they can live an entirely different life.

4:18So then the creative finds you and says, I want to make a business for my creativity. Yes. Okay, got it. Now, what does the structure of your business look like? Like when we had spoken, there was different levels and variations. What does that look like for you right now? Okay, there's a couple of different things in which people can have a relationship with us. The easiest way is to consume some of our content on social. We produce a lot of YouTube videos. I write for LinkedIn or I write on LinkedIn and then I create content on Instagram. It's how people get to know you. And hopefully they can use some of the free content to level up and also to kind of have a trial with you.

4:57Like, do I like this person? Do they know what they're talking about? And so then they graduate to some form of there's a transactional moment that happens. Okay, cool. So for the sake of this context, nobody knows who you are. We're just going to pretend nobody knows who you are. Not that following matters, but that the quality of the education that you're producing, what is your social following? Like your top three channels, what are the sizes of that? because I think an audience member is gonna be like, oh, okay, now I get why he's talking about education. Okay, so our biggest following is on YouTube.

5:23We have, I think, about two and a half million subscribers. The next biggest following is on Instagram. I'm at 964, 65, something like that, 965 ,000. And then LinkedIn is my next biggest following, which is 500-ish thousand. Okay. So those are the stats. So we're gonna pause there because between those platforms, we're looking at maybe 3.5 million subscribers, not including other people who can find your content organically or getting touched, especially as the algorithms change, but we're talking about you have created education, also known as content out on free social platforms as a way just to kind of give people in a moosh, boosh, a taste.

6:02Am I about, am I about his brand? Great. Then what happens next? Okay. And then some of them get excited and they ask, and this is what I really believe in. If you teach people, they're going to become excited about the things that you do and they're going to look it up you don't even have to sell that's right so then they can they then there's a number of kits courses and things they can buy from as little as 19 as to as much as like five thousand dollars that they can buy and some of those people consume that and this is so what's next now i want more of you we have okay so so we're right now we're talking about a product suite yes and the product suite at the lower end from free content points into what's the lowest ticket up to$5 ,000 in this particular arm of the business?

6:44Yes. What does it start at? What's like the... I think$19. Okay, great. There's a template or a kit. Okay. It's a self-guided thing and those sell really well. My chief operating officer generally writes those because he likes to write. I like to produce instructional videos and things like that. So we play to our strengths. Okay. And so if it's like an instructional booklet, you can think of it as like a really hyper-specific PDF digital booklet that you can download by. and there are usually templates and things that you can use and you can apply immediately. One of the examples is something we call the perfect proposal.

7:16So having been in the creative service business for over two decades and working on this, we've refined what a proposal should look like and most creatives don't know what that looks like and how to speak in a professional way as a presentation. So we put that together. It's a keynote presentation. There's a PDF guide that you read and then you fill it in and people make real money. And here's the secret. the not so secret secret, you already have the secret sauce. You just needed to believe in yourself. So the proposal, the way it looks and how it's laid out gives you that confidence to add a little bit more money into your bid.

7:52And for them, that changes their lives. How cool. But specifically now, when we contextualize that from a business perspective, you went to the consumer, right? So this person buys this and then it doesn't result just in proposal, it results in self-confidence. And that ROI alone is worth more than the$20,$30,$40 that they spent on that kit. Amazing. So that's the first point of entry into a business. And then from there, they could move forward up into$5 ,000 for different types of offerings. Okay. And then people get to that point and they're like, I'm fully bought in. What's next? Yeah. So we run two coaching communities.

8:27One's called the Accelerator Group, which is for people who are between zero to a hundred thousand dollars in revenue a year. They have to be a creative person because that's the group that Ben and Stephanie runs because it's a very specific way that they've structured the curriculum. And then I run something that we call the Future Pro Group, which is for people who are around a hundred grand to about a million dollars in revenue and they want to scale up. At this point, they have systems in place, they have portfolio, they know how to talk to clients and work with clients, but then they hit some kind of ceiling.

8:56They've hit a peak and they're starting to level out and they want to learn how to scale from there. That's where I can come in and give very strategic tactical things, design business models for them, help them to figure out their offer and then off they go. And that's usually how that works. So the business of the business is free content, low ticket paid offering, move up a product suite, get them to the point of what's next. And then depending on where they are in the business, there's two offerings, zero or what? So we'll say like low five figures to a hundred thousand, a hundred thousand to a million.

9:33And the level of your involvement in that is really just at the high end of your product suite. Yes. Incredible. Ladies and gentlemen, Christo, there he is. So it's like, I just, you know, I want to do the podcast because you and I share a similar belief and the similar belief is share your best stuff, give them a taste and then move them into different offerings along that. Okay. Can I take a second and read something from your website? Of course. Okay. Quote, I've been running a successful design business for over 22 years with a combined gross billings of over 80 million and have since launched a second seven figure business that has been growing over 300 percent in revenue year over year.

10:13So if you had to pick two things that have impacted your growth the most, what are those two things? Really good question. The first business is so different than the second business. Do you want me to talk about the second business or the first business? Well, let's identify. Now that we know what the product suites and offering, what did you identify as a second business for a listener who has no idea what they're listening to? Okay. So this has a little bit to do with my origin. Let's go there. Let's go there. I used to run a production and post-production company. We make commercials and music videos for some of the biggest brands and bands in the world.

10:44And then somewhere in my early 40s, I decided, you know what? I want to teach and I want to see if I can do something else besides doing this service for hire work. Okay, pause. Chris says, I want to do something different. And he's in his 40s at this point in time. So there's a lot of people watching, listening, and they hear old 40s. Some people say that's so young. And some people say that's so old. And Chris is saying, I'm going to start something new at this age. Risk, willing to take the risk. Okay. I love risk, by the way. And as you know, all profit comes from risk. Hey, if that's not a quotable, like, let's just bring that on the screen.

11:20All profit comes from risk. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So in creating commercial work, the biggest breakthrough was to have a sales process, to have reps or agents that work for you, to understand how the game is played. And when you get to a certain level, the game is very different than what you might have thought in school. And so one of the biggest key decisions I made was to hire a business coach who helped me to go from$200 ,000 per job to unlimited amount of money. And I didn't realize something and it was a lesson he taught me he said i think you think you're a major league player but you're a minor league player and when the budgets open up they can literally hire anybody in the world so now you're not just competing with people in the united states you're competing with the world so what we have to do is level up your game so that you can be a major in the majors and that was like a shock to me because i didn't understand that because before what was happening was we would win jobs up to about$200 ,000.

12:19That was not a problem for us. But when the budgets got to 300, 400, I was like, why are we losing now? We're only winning about 20 % of the gigs and it's really depressing because we're pitching for work and then you're like, well, we could have done that, but we didn't. Then you look at your bank account and I'm like, well, that reflects there too. So he taught me how to pitch, how to have the sales conversation. It's something that you don't learn in school, you learn in real life. Now, luckily for us, I'm a good student, but we also had a lot of opportunities. He calls them at bats. So in those days, we're getting probably new business calls like three times a week.

12:52And we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars per call. So you get good or you go broke. So when you talked about the 300 % growth year over year, what were the two things that impacted that? Was it the coach or was it the sales component? Okay, now we're talking about the second business. Yes. Okay, it's easy relatively, I want to give some context here, to grow 300 % year over year for a number of years because at the beginning, we're like doing$30 ,000. So if you do$100 ,000, you're 300%. And our whole thing was, can we continue at this growth? What I learned in the second business, which is unlike the first business, is we're moving away from - And the second business is the business you described, the digital resources up into the coaching.

13:32The education company. And so the second business is really built around working with customers versus clients. And there's a big difference. Who explained that? Okay, so in the first business, We're dealing with only a handful of clients. It's high ticket, high touch, white glove experience. It's very bespoke solutions. And you're selling one-off things to people and that's it. And so it has to be very focused on a client per se. The second business is a product-based business, not a service. And so the products, we're selling lots of copies of the product to a much broader audience. It's not bespoke because they could not afford it to be bespoke and we could not produce it in a bespoke way.

14:12so now we're building a very different business model and the key here was learning to create content to build an audience that's the game changer we have this debate and the thought experiment that i have with people is to to do this because this literally happened with me so i had a business partner his name is jose he's the one who actually encouraged me to make content and at some point we had divergent ideas on what the company should be about i had my version he had his version. So what we had to do was we had to go our separate ways. And what we did is we chopped up the company into what I thought were equal parts so that no one would feel cheated out of the separation.

14:50Something that my dad taught me. It's like, if there's a cookie, you and your brother, one person cuts it, the other person gets a pick. So I was like, to the micrometer, the cookie is going to be in half because I was one who's going to cut it. And then my little brother's like, oh, that's a bigger cookie. I'm like, shoot, the sandwich, the cookie, the cake, you have to do it like that. So I was the one who decided, okay, I'm going to cut the company in half. You pick. And so I went back and forth like, oh, I don't want to cheat myself. I don't want to screw. I want to make it super fair. What do you want?

15:18So here's the thought experiment because it actually happened in real life. I said, okay, so we have one product that generates all the revenue for the company, 100%. And then there's the audience, which doesn't generate any money for the company, but it's worth something too. So I said, do you want to keep the product and the revenue or do you want to keep the community and the channel? Dang. So this is a tough decision, right? Because all the revenue was coming in from the product. And my business partner said, okay, I don't really have capacity to create content and you're much better at that than I am.

15:49So I will take the product and the revenue. Then you take the company. And if you allow me. You'll take the community and the channels. Yeah, the community and the channels. Sorry. Thanks for clarifying. Okay, so. No, I'm writing notes, Chris. This is amazing. Okay, so let's see what happens here. So the first couple of years in which we separated, I was really worried because they're like, what happened to the other guy? And now I'm starting over from zero because I have to create a new brand, had to build the audience up again, but the channel I get to keep. Okay. So we make the announcement, Jose's no longer with the company.

16:22We're going to go do this thing on our own. And what I found was we were able to grow the audience right back really quickly. And now we needed a product because we're making no money. we're selling the product for Jose. He takes all the revenue. So once we created a product, something miraculous happened. The stickiness isn't in the product. It's the connection that someone has, the customer has with you. So now I can theoretically create an unlimited number of products. And if my relationship with them is good, they will buy the product because of me, not because of the product. And this is a really interesting thing because a lot of people think, Like, well, what you're doing isn't really valuable.

17:02This content, this free content that you keep putting out. I said, well, good luck trying to launch a product without this community. So then the debate comes in, like, what is more valuable? The product and the revenue or the brand and the community? And I bet 100 % every single time, 10 out of 10, it's always the brand and the community. So somebody's listening and they've bought in. Like, they know it and they see it. and then the story they tell themselves is, but that's not me. Like, so you're saying that as a direct derivative, you can create a product because of you and then people hear, but I'm not whatever X, right?

17:38So I'm not captivating, I'm not articulate, I'm not creative, I'm not pizzazzy. And so Chris can do this because it's Chris. And so how do you respond to the person who believes that content can be the key, but they don't believe that they can create that content? Well, I will tell them, I believe what you believed. How? That's where I was. I'm 42 years old. My friend and then my partner said, let's go make content on YouTube. I'm like, I don't do that. I'm behind the camera talent. I'm not in front of camera. And he kind of made an ultimatum. He's like, we don't do this unless you're willing to step in front of the camera.

18:14And he was very generous in his offer. He says, look, I'll do most of the talking. You just sit there. When you're ready to speak, you speak. And what happens is you have all these ideas, these limiting beliefs about what you can and can't do. And so the first, I think, three to five episodes, I barely spoke. My jaw was really tight. I was super self-conscious. And I literally told the team, when you're editing the videos, if you see me walk by the studio, turn it off. I can't hear it. I can't see it because I just don't like my face. I don't like my voice. And literally, I will fire you if you don't do that.

18:43Because I just, it kind of, it was so gross for me. It was so cringe for me to see myself. And so I'm saying this to you because a lot of people do feel this way. But you expose yourself to the things that you don't like and you build up a tolerance for those things and eventually you learn to be okay with it. And at some point, you actually like it. I once heard it described as the mountain of cringe. And we climb the mountain of cringe and it's a slog and we hate it. And then somewhere along the ascent, you will get to a plateau where that's where the haters dwell. And so I wonder, before you reach the pinnacle, whatever the pinnacle is, and like I probably it's debatable whether you would agree that you're the pinnacle, but some people can look at two million subscribers on YouTube and a million on Instagram and all of those other vanity metrics.

19:32And they say, oh, he must be at the pinnacle. And whether or not you feel you're there or not is not debatable. There was a point along the climb of like the mountain of cringe where you're asking your team, turn off the computer. I can't see myself. And then you have to say, what I'm going to repeat back what I heard is you have to be comfortable in the uncomfortable. And until you find a way to enjoy tiny bits of it along the way. And then I wonder, did you ever get along that place where your greatest fears became manifested in what people were saying about the work that you were putting out?

20:00That's a great question. I don't think I had so much fear about the things I was putting out. I just, I had my own high standards of myself. I don't really put too much stock in the opinions of other people. And that comes from the confidence I got from doing design work for two decades and for teaching that. But the moment, there was a breakthrough moment for me, which was I had a video and I couldn't watch it. And it was pretty early on in my YouTube days. And I asked my wife, honey, can you just look at this? And she goes, why? Just look at it for a second. And she goes, okay. I'm like, do you see anything weird?

20:33She goes, no, I don't get where this is going. I said, does that look like me? He goes, of course it looks like you. Does that sound like me? She goes, yeah. And I was like, I can't trust my wife. Boys, come over. And my boys are like small at this point. You know, they're very young. I said, boys, I need you to do something for dad come on okay yeah dad I said I want you to watch this and I'm going to come back in a minute because I couldn't even watch it and then they're like okay and I come back I said does that sound and look like dad and they're like yeah dad what and they just ran away and like went to play video games or something like okay so here's the thing in my head I sound different and your head voice sounds different than what you hear when it's played back yeah in my mind I look different because when we look in the mirror we only see certain parts we don't see it like frozen in time like the whole face.

21:17But I was thinking, wait a minute, my wife and my children theoretically love me, accept me for exactly who I am, how I look and how I sound. Maybe I just got to get over myself. And I think the world already sees you for who you are and accepts your voice or they don't and you can't really change that. So now it's the journey of self-acceptance. So if my wife and my children see me exactly like this person who I thought this cannot be me, I'm just gonna have to be okay with that and that was the big unlock for me. I love that whole thing right there just Radical self-acceptance and you know Depending on the spectrum where you say I don't give too much credibility Or space to what people think because I have higher standards than what most people would have like an opinion about And then it was you You became your greatest opposition on the mountain of cringe crazy and you overcame that through radical self-acceptance.

22:14Yeah. I love that. Okay. So how do other businesses take this approach, right? So you had one business that was client driven. Yes. Hundreds of thousands of dollars per phone call. And then that business you decide to divide with Jose. And he takes that business, the client facing business. No, no. I'm sorry. There's two different companies. That company he has nothing to do with. Got it. That company I ran for almost 20 years. Got it. At that point. And then this new business that we're embarking on together. this is the future the other one's a different company got it so the future started you and jose yes and then you guys divided yes and you kept the future community and content yes and your big belief as you begin to market that is content yes so as you're looking at the marketing structure for the future then versus today are they same are they different how has marketing changed in the time that you have been leading the future?

23:10Okay, that's a very good question. The marketing has gotten more sophisticated, although we're not pros at marketing. I always tell people I'm the worst marketer in the world. I really am. Well, I mean, I don't know, Chris. I'm just putting it out there. I think I'm a great content creator, and I want somebody to come in like my fairy godmother and just handle all the marketing so I could just teach. I do love to teach. And I wanted to clarify one thing. When we create content, it's not a taste. It's the full thing. I don't believe in gatekeeping. I think that's a term that people use. So when we do a whiteboard workshop, I think you should be paying me hundreds of dollars, if not thousands of dollars to watch this, but I just release it for free, which creates concern for my team.

23:50Because they say, Chris, if you release this, what will they buy? This should be a course that we produce. I don't care. And so I'm trying to like figure this thing out myself and I'm still working through it, Jasmine, which is how much free content do we create? Because I do believe this. it does hurt the sales of our products. And the reason is, if you can't keep up with the free content that we create, why would you then spend money to buy another educational product that you're not going to be able to watch or implement? This is a problem for us. So when you see most content creators, and I don't know who fits in what category, but I think what they do is they give you a taste and then there's a prompt and said, if you want the rest, come join this and enroll in this program.

24:33I believe in this idea of like, just giving in a generous spirit and people find a way to give you back somehow. It's not immediate and it's not one-to-one, but some things will happen. And I think being able to do the mentoring with you, with the UPS store and Inc. Magazine is the manifestation of that. Because I don't think anybody calls me up and says, hey, would you like to mentor these three entrepreneurs if they don't watch the content? I'm almost certain that no one from the UPS team took a course from me. Right. They just saw the content. Maybe they looked at the social following and said, this person seems to know what they're talking about.

25:13Maybe we should invite them. Okay. So I'm going to repeat back what I think I heard. Your team says, if you show it all, what do they buy? Yes. And your response is, I will show it all and people will figure out what to buy. Yes. How to buy. Why to buy. Or they will buy less, but I'm okay with that. So there's always this friction that exists. And I don't want to say my team, they're not bad people. No, of course not. They're in charge to make sure we make money. Yes. That there's still a way for us to move forward as a team. And it's a difficult thing and it's something, they speak the truth.

25:47I know that. Right. But I'm just like, I'm trying to live on this reciprocity principle and try to acquire or build up as much karmic equity as I can so that when I need to ask them for something, my community, that they will give. And they, I mean, they do. You have a wildly successful business. And then there's also another element there that I want to speak to the person who says, well, Chris can do that because Chris is making multiple seven figures, eight figures, whatever. But there is a level that somebody consumes the free content and then they know that it's always there versus the person who buys or invest, you know, a hundred, 500,$5 ,000, they show up differently.