319 - The Psych Safety Playbook: Davida Lindsay-Bell (Chief People Officer, Hanna Andersson)

0:00Davida Lindsay-Bell: And before anything else gets clear on why this technology is being introduced, who's it serving and for what purpose, right? And so again, like the human has to be at the core and that also requires voice. And so people need to be in the room before some of these decisions are made and not consulted after. And so I'm very fortunate enough to have, again, the relational capital that I have to be, you know, instantly partnered and reaching out across the aisle to my CTO. So we are truly building this thing together for this purpose. And so I think back to the voice, you need trust. And I think trust that experimenting and being wrong is acceptable.

0:48Davida Lindsay-Bell: And so I think, again, the underpinning and underlying essence of that statement for me, it just is it's behavioral. And the cultural readiness has to precede any degree of technical readiness in order for these things to have any degree of continuity or sustainability. You're listening to the Modern People Leader podcast, where we go behind the scenes with today's top HR leaders and work experts. We talk to them about how they've gotten to where they're at, what they do every day, and what they see coming next for the future of work. Hope you enjoy.

1:27Devita, welcome to the Modern People Leader. Good. How are you doing? How are you doing? I think you just put it perfect. It's like, it's Friday, we made it, y 'all. We're here. We're here.

1:38Davida Lindsay-Bell: Such an incredible week. Good to be here with you all. Here with you all. and so there's a lot of things that we want to get into that we have some traditions in the show we uh and it's just a way to keep things familiar with our with our audience the first uh tradition we have is what we call good news stories we all share a story or or two it can be personal it can be work it can be both just something in the last week this crazy week we've all had just to show a little gratitude and kick things off with a little positivity. We'd love for our guests to go first. So if you have something you want to share, let's do it.

2:17Davida Lindsay-Bell: Yeah, for sure. So again, thank you so much for starting with joy. And the good news for me sort of blends professional and personal together. And I love how those, these things are coming together. So my son is entering his sophomore year in college. And so I was welcomed the latter part of last year in the fall to join their advisory board. So he's at San Jose State. And this past Saturday or over the summer, I've been invited to participate on a panel with student orientation leaders. And that was this past Saturday. And so having the opportunity to actually talk to parents about the same time and what it means to prepare students for a world that's changing faster than like any curriculum can keep up with is actually a moment of joy, right?

3:12Davida Lindsay-Bell: Nervousness at the same time. And so it just leads me to a place of like getting ever so curious with these parents and alongside like four students in how do we, right, as like organizational practitioners continue to think about the experiences for these students that are going to be entering the workforce. And it's so applicable to like all that like we're grappling with today, even within our organization on upscaling. So I think that's my good news. That's my good news story. I can go next. So I have I'm in super dad mode this weekend. My wife has gone all weekend. She left yesterday morning.

3:52And I've got like a full agenda planned out. And yesterday before bedtime, I just threw on some some music videos for for lena because she really likes she likes two songs and and they're very different songs she likes the the shakira world cup song i don't know that one it's like her and burn a boy i played that she loves the the the video from the halftime show and and then i played her the choosing texas uh music video from ella langley and she just like starts jamming out it's the cutest thing and eventually she like wore herself out so i picked her up and we had like a little dance party and it was just like a fun little moment and um yeah it's it's so fun being a dad and that was a nice little like super dad moment this week how old is she daniel he's 14 months so she's running around she's the perfect camera she's like babbling

4:48Davida Lindsay-Bell: oh and uh you're a big disney person right huge so she yes i have joy on my desk loves all the music yeah so she right now she's obsessed with moana she loves all of the the videos or all of the songs from moana that's all she wants to watch or listen to she has she has like moana dolls she's got it all and so yeah it's fun i don't know i guess embracing like the little kid in me that's what it's all about championing childhood right that's awesome i'm kind of straddling both worlds here because I have teenagers. I have 14 and 16-year-old daughters, and then I got married again last year, and we have a seventh-month-old boy.

5:36And so I will distill my good news. There are a lot of good news in my household right now, but I think the best news for today is Daniel and I have been recording podcasts like this for a long time. We've been at this for five and a half years. I don't even know how long, but it's a lot. Hundreds and hundreds of HR leaders we've interviewed, dozens and dozens of events. We have met a lot of people and we're very privileged for that. Amazing leaders, amazing women. One of those is a woman named Beth Lay. Beth is the chief people officer for Kendra Scott Jewelry. Kendra Scott's headquarters happens to be in Austin.

6:21And as we were wrapping up our interview with her, or maybe it was in prep, I mentioned, like, hey, my daughters love Kendra Scott. And my youngest daughter has one necklace. It's a greenstone. That's her favorite color. She wears it all the time. And Beth followed up and was like, hey, like, if you ever would like to take your daughters on a tour of Kendra Scott HQ, like, let me know, like, we would be happy to do that. And so yesterday, I took it didn't work out for both of my daughters. But because my oldest is helping with or freshman orientation. So she was like in this culture club. So I took my youngest and her two besties.

7:02And we did a full tour of Kendra Scott's headquarters in Austin. And it turns out that my daughter goes to this all girls public school called Ann Richards named after the former Texas governor. And it turns out that Kendra Scott has an internship just with Ann Richards and for like the pillar of what my daughter's studying media tech. And so now there might even be so amazing tour of Kendra Scott. I got like huge dad, like cool dad bonus points. And there might be like this internship opportunity for Cora to be a high school intern at Kendra Scott. So that was all yesterday. So I think I'll leave my good news at that.

7:47Okay, that is absolutely amazing.

7:49Davida Lindsay-Bell: Thank you again. I think the joy is sort of what has to get us through so many like pivotal moments in life. So happy to share in this moment with you all. That's amazing. Congratulations. organizations. Thank you. Thank you. Well, and this isn't about us today. This is about you. And, you know, this, the next question, the question we kick off with, I call it the Brene Brown question. Like, what's your story, Davida? Like, tell us the journey. I'm sure there's some, you know, some joy, some adversity, some things you needed to work through. But like, how did all of that lead to you becoming the chief people officer?

8:23Davida Lindsay-Bell: Yeah, yeah. One thing keeps coming up on the podcast, and that's leave. It's one of those processes that everybody has, but very few get right. And we just talked about this the other week with Kim Smith from Tilt. And she framed it in a way that really clicked for me. Not every employee experiences leave the same way. Some want every detail up front, others feel overwhelmed and just want you to simply tell them what to do next. But most companies deliver the exact same experience to everyone. It's one thing to have a compliant leave program. It's another to have one that actually works for the human going through it.

9:00And that's where Tilt comes in. Tilt is a leave experience platform that helps teams move beyond one-size-fits-all processes. Using Tilt, companies can tailor the leave experience to each employee's needs, keep managers aligned on coverage and return to work, automate complex workflows like pay and compliance, and give HR the space to focus on support and not spreadsheets. In other words, the tech handles the complexity so that the people team can show up where it matters most as a human. Leave isn't just an HR process. These are life-changing moments that can make or break the employee experience.

9:37If you want to learn more about Tilt, go to hellotilt.com. That's hellotilt.com.

9:46Davida Lindsay-Bell: So this is actually quite interesting. And, you know, I'm sure you've probably have had conversations with many, a chief people officer. And I'm sure like me, probably the many never really like set out to be like in this role. So, I mean, honestly, for me, like I was initially a journalism major and my inspiration was Oprah. Love Oprah. And so she convinced me that storytelling was like one of the most powerful tools in the world. And honestly, she wasn't wrong. And what shifted for me was a pivot into organizational behavior, where, you know, you get to marry the art and science of storytelling together and really understanding the intricacies and like the complexities of like humans and our behavior.

10:35Davida Lindsay-Bell: And so still people and the communication aspects is what makes the human beings tick. And it was just apply to the workplace instead of a broadcast. And so my first real exposure to all that the complexity that this space brings was at a company called Drager's. And Drager's is a family-owned specialty grocery store in the Bay Area, and so an Epicurean market. And I was close to everything at once considering the size and scope of the business, including having exposure to executives when I was in my 20s and, you know, like having exposure to leadership. And so it blended everything from like accounting, operations, logistics, marketing, communications, and of course, like the people work.

11:20Davida Lindsay-Bell: And I believe it's really where I started to gain a sense of feeling like what it means to be a builder, someone who doesn't just observe what's broken, but designs what's really needed. And from there, my pathway grew cross-section. I don't want to say like it was intentional, but it just grew by design, right? Almost naturally. And so then Dr. Pepper Snapple group. And so I joined Dr. Pepper post the Cadbury Schweppes spinoff. So it was at a complex time in the origin story of even Dr. Pepper Snapple. The org was stepping into a completely new brand identity and it needed the foundational work.

12:05Davida Lindsay-Bell: So again, this, the story will sort of like be the thread through my experience, but there was also about resetting purpose and values, mobilizing leaders to a new like action and strategy plan and bringing the workforce together through real genuine transformation. And then it also introduced me to the complexities of like labor relations. So the Teamsters, that was a fun experience. I also was fortunate enough to get my Lean Six Sigma Greenbelt certification while there and walk through Kaizen projects between our distribution, our manufacturing facility. Of course, the acquisition of bottlers introduced me to mergers and acquisitions and being part of diligence teams.

12:49Davida Lindsay-Bell: And then, you know, I say it was a real degree of operational complexity and sort of like the introduction to strategic people work. There, I was also afforded the opportunity to sort of spearhead and lead social impact initiatives. So the Let's Play initiative in partnership with Kaboom to build playgrounds in underserved communities. And so again, like, there's like the purpose essence, even though it's a CPG company, sort of like coming through. The biggest inspiration for me there, I think, in my origin story was Larry Solomon. And he was our then EVP of HR. And he showed me, I think, what the genuine integration of business strategy alongside sort of like the people HR operational components actually look like.

13:35Davida Lindsay-Bell: And, you know, he sort of like made the stamp right in front of like a many HR team meetings, as well as the entire organization, that he wanted his organization to shift away from firefighting. And he wanted us to become what was called, I just, I love these catchy names, but credible proactivists. And so that sort of like stuck with me. Yes, credible proactivists. I was like amazed by that. And it carries forward to this day. And then, you know, moving to Kaiser Permanente. So again, here's like another pivot into like a completely foreign territory, healthcare. there. Kaiser, I was recruited there to support cultural transformation.

14:12Davida Lindsay-Bell: I think, you know, having a stamp and like the certification and orientation and continuous improvement was a draw. That's why I was also introduced to more of like the growth mindset work, brain-based coaching. When I started, we brought in NLI, the Neuro Leadership Institute, to help us through some of the cultural transformation that we wanted to do in that area. And basically distributing power and agency from like the environmental service workers to the physicians. And again, like the labor relations, talent strategy, management, succession planning was also part of the work that I sort of like grew into in a more healthier way and rounding me out than Imperfect Foods.

14:55Davida Lindsay-Bell: So I was in a traditional company, Kaiser Healthcare to a startup. So you see. I'm just kind of flexible, nimble. I just, I like it all, y 'all. So Imperfect Foods was brought there, brought their values to life, helped them operationalize them, built the people infrastructure for rapid national expansion and scale. And then SFMOMA. So SFMOMA was my move into the cultural art space. And there I was just like, oh my gosh, like this is going to be the most incredible thing. I now get the insight into going to galas and all the other things. I love the arts. and I joined there January 6, 2020. I'm pausing because that moment in time was just like no one knew what COVID was or anything whatsoever and I was onboarding for 60 days y 'all and then like the world stopped and so I have to say I think that was the biggest moment of stretch in my entire career in life in having to navigate and manage so many things.

15:53Davida Lindsay-Bell: One you know I was hired there to also bring their culture and values to life. So cultural transformation, and then layered onto that, you know, was like shutting the museum down. I think we were closed for about 18 months. And so how do you take in-person experiences and also do them digitally was also something, you know, that was introduced with, but I have to say there, I also supported strategy at a very high level from both an institutional standpoint, but also board relations. So I supported board relations, board governance. So reorienting the structure alongside the museum strategy was also work that I supported at SFMOMO for the board.

16:34Davida Lindsay-Bell: And it allowed me to grow in deep relations with our trustees. And still to this day, I'm connected with some of these folks because of the complexities of what that time called for. And then Hannah. And so here I am today. Again, I think like the story for me is like, I love purpose oriented companies. I think you're hearing that I love complexity, again, like, not by intention, but kind of, sort of. And so the through line for me is that, you know, it's the stage of the organization, the reset, the rebuild, the scale. And I've learned to read these patterns no matter where I land. are you just an encyclopedia on like all things i mean you've worked in health care art worked for dr pepper now you know a children's clothing like just so many different things do you just have like so much random knowledge yes yes but you know what i love it i do i think it just it makes me who i am and so you say walking encyclopedia it's funny i had a i had a dinner conversation with my partner last night.

17:36Davida Lindsay-Bell: And I was like, do you remember like the walking encyclopedia salesman, right? Who was like coming door to door when you were young. So you're bringing it back full circle, Daniel. I love to learn. I do. I love to learn. And I think that's what, you know, like gives folks some of the most value to an organization or to even being a friend with someone to having a conversation, even in helping my son figure out what he wants to become in life, these stories and nuances matter, I think, significantly. So yeah, I guess I am walking encyclopedia in my own right, you know. And when you meet people for the first time, and you tell them you're working for Hannah Anderson, how do you describe what you guys do?

18:16Yeah, yeah.

18:17Davida Lindsay-Bell: So Hannah Anderson is a 40-year-old children's and family apparel brand. And it's built on the belief that childhood and quality matter. And how a company shows up in the world matters also. So we're known for initially for our soft organic cotton pieces that are long lasting enough to be handed down. Right. So we have Hannah Me Down quality and we have a fiercely loyal customer. And so, you know, I think that's how I would describe Hannah. We have a very loyal customer and it's almost a cult following with Hannah Me Down quality. And we see so much pride in like the pictures and stories that are submitted from our customers.

19:00I was just checking out your website just right before this recording. And like, I have a seven month old and we I literally this morning, we're like, Oh, we need to get some new PJs. And I was on your website. And I was like, Oh, man, there's some amazing stuff here. Dangerous, like baby stuff is so dangerous. That said, I want to talk about I want to get dig into a few of the things that you shared with us in the prep call. And you said something that really struck me. And that is that so many AI transformations are struggling right now. Like that, like we have had countless podcasts about that.

19:41We have talked to practitioners like off the record about that. And one of the things that you mentioned, you know, to me is like at the crux of the issue. And that is that organizations are putting tools before people. And, and so I just want to start there. Like, it feels like we lost the plot a little bit and in our like, so many cool things that you can do with the new AI stack. Clearly, it's going to have a transformative effect on all businesses and all jobs, just work the, the construct, construct of work itself, I think is, is also going to change. And so but when you make that comment, like, you know, organizations are putting tools before people, like, what does that mean for you?

20:27And, you know, how have you tried to approach things a little differently at Hannah Anderson?

20:33Davida Lindsay-Bell: Yeah, I mean, that's such a such a very good question. And the backdrop behind me is a book is a bookshelf. So again, back to me being a learner, and I'm just going to tear a page from Simon Sinek. You have to start with the why, period, bottom line. Yes, thank you for the hard love all around. And before anything else gets clear on why this technology is being introduced, who's it serving? And for what purpose? Right? And so, again, like the human has to be at the core and that also requires voice. And so people need to be in the room before some of these decisions are made and not consulted after.

21:12And so I'm very fortunate enough to have, again, the relational capital that I have to be, you know, instantly partnered and reaching out across the aisle to my CTO.

21:23Davida Lindsay-Bell: So we are truly building this thing together for this purpose. And so I think back to the voice, you need trust. And I think trust that experimenting and being wrong is acceptable. And so I think, again, the underpinning and underlying essence of that statement for me, it just is it's behavioral. and naming what isn't working is welcomed, right? So again, it just, I'm hitting on some of the safety behavioral components because I think that's critical and has lost its way. And learning out loud signals engagement for me and those conditions don't happen automatically and they have to be built deliberately and they have to be built first.

22:07Davida Lindsay-Bell: And the cultural readiness has to proceed any degree of technical readiness in order for these things to have any degree of continuity or sustainability. And it's a sequencing argument, right? And I think that sequencing argument has to be built with real business consequences in mind. And in my opinion, the organizations that may be struggling with AI adoption aren't really struggling because of the technology. I think they're struggling because they sort of skipped and quickly moved past the conditions to make honest engagement with tools possible. And I think you mentioned when we last caught up that you were only 35 days in when this became like your, you know, personal mandate, like, you know, psychological safety is the priority.

22:56And you brought somebody in named Dr. Timothy Clark. Tell us a little bit about that.

23:01Davida Lindsay-Bell: Yeah, so I was, I was about 35, 40 days in and on my listening tour. And what I was hearing confirmed essentially what I was observing, in that the organization had a capability. It wasn't fully accessing, and the gap wasn't talent. It were the conditions. And so I was seeing where information stalled or stopped traveling across the organization as it grew more distributed. So we're essentially structured in thirds. We have a third of our population in around our HQ in Portland, Oregon. We have a third across the country in our distribution facility. So again, like communication wasn't flowing and also identifying who deferred, where they shouldn't have deferred, which rooms were quiet when a senior leader entered and where honest conversations happened after the meeting, right?

23:53Davida Lindsay-Bell: Rather than before it. And so again, Timothy Clark came in taking forward the Amy Edmondson's principles and really bringing more practical application for how we move and maneuver. So I brought him in to do something very specific. His four stages of psychological safety really give us the behavioral operational architecture, if you will, which is research grounded progression describing some of these experiences. And we have infused the essence of the four stages into our core values and leadership expectations. Our values have really become the vehicle, how we drive psychological safety and it's experienced and modeled daily.

24:36Davida Lindsay-Bell: I also just want to name something that I think is also important here, as again, we talk about our children and we talk about the essence of being Hannah Anderson. Our purpose is champions of childhood. And our values, bold, curious, inclusive, warmhearted, enduring, adventurous, are really expressions of how children naturally show up in the world before this degree of organizational complexity enters. And so I think the truth about that is these are really the qualities that psychological safety requires. And, you know, as we're professionals, as we grow into adults, these things become a little bit more complicated because of what we're exposed to.

25:19Davida Lindsay-Bell: Clark also seeded something within our organization that we carry through. And it was shifting from a nice to a kind organization. Right. And nice, again, is that conflict avoidance that might be like dressed up or like looking pretty as care. And then kind, of course, is caring enough to say what's actually true. and again culture is only real when you start to change the behavior and for me it was sort of like a standard from the beginning bold move bold move yeah i love that we're talking today about psychological safety daniel and i like there i feel like psychological safety had its had its moment a year or two ago i can't like the time time just flies it was like three or four years ago.

26:14It's been, yeah, time has flown by. It was. And it was, it was one of those topics that like, you know, warranted all the conversation. And then it just like fell off a cliff. Like we just like, no one wanted to talk about it. And so, and, and it's in my personal life, it's something that, you know, with a seven month old and teenagers, like my wife and I have been, have doubled down on a parenting style called secure attachment. And it has a lot of parallels with psychological safety. Like the end goal is building trust and by having a solid foundation of relational interaction. And that to me, at the most basic level, like is what we're trying to accomplish with psychological safety.

26:59And so I feel like it can, it's somewhat like culture. It can be a little nebulous? Like, what exactly does this mean? Or it's like, easily, it can be easily dismissed, like it was by a lot of people, a lot of executives and HR leaders. And so I'm curious, like, from your perspective, like, what is the key to doing psychological safety, right? For that being like, an area of focus for a manager, a leader, an executive team, like, Like, what, you know, how do you, how can you approach it to keep it relevant and not, you know, swept away by the nation? How much compensation risk do you think is hiding in your spreadsheets right now?

27:42For a lot of people teams, comp has gotten way more complex than the system supporting it. You got merit cycles, bonuses, incentive plans, approvals, benchmarking, pay equity, transparency requirements. And somehow a lot of it is still being managed through Excel, manual uploads, or or HRIS modules that weren't really built for this level of complexity. And you know, that's all fine and dandy until there are three versions of the same comp file, or one person becomes the single source of truth, or leadership asks why a pay decision was made, and the answer is harder and harder to explain. That's where BCom comes in.

28:22BCom is a purpose-built compensation platform for organizations managing complex pay programs, especially those teams that I was just referring to that have outgrown what spreadsheets can comfortably handle. It helps people and total rewards leaders run complex comp cycles at the speed of business, connect compensation, performance, and pay equity in one place, create clear governance with clear audit trails, and use AI responsibly with humans still in control of the decisions. If your comp strategy is getting harder and harder to manage, Be Calm is worth checking out. You can learn more at be calm.com slash MPL.

29:01That's B-E-Q-O-M dot com slash MPL.

29:05Davida Lindsay-Bell: This is actually very interesting because we still, we, right, internally, we oftentimes, again, want to complicate something that should seem so inherently simple. And I think that one of the reasons why we infused the concept of psychological safety through Timothy Clark is because it's more practical. I think even hearing the term psychological safety makes people feel a certain way because it inherently sounds complicated. Right. And so, again, Timothy Clark's four practical stages of inclusion. Right. I want to feel welcomed and included learner. Right. Like I want to be curious. I want to contributor.

29:45Davida Lindsay-Bell: I want to be invited to the table and have perspective and challenger. It's so simple. Right. So I think that's one of the reasons why we brought him forward. And so I think the real test for us is really more behavioral to get it right. So structurally, we translated this framework again through our values into competencies. So core behavioral competencies in how like our people have to show up and our calibration rubric by level. Right. So it's baked into our overall structure. And it's baked in from everyone, from a senior leader all the way down to individual contributor. And culture became measurable for us, right, through behavioral application.

30:25Davida Lindsay-Bell: I want to make reference also to Eduardo Brasinio. And I don't know if you all heard of him. I'll probably bring him back and bring him forward. But he wrote this book called Performance Paradox. And performance paradox is, again, how do we as adults and humans wrestle with performing and learning at the same time? So the undercurrent of all that we're doing is the undercurrent of that. I think psychological safety also for us is not separate from the performance agenda, but it has made learning possible. It's also something that we've hardwired. Last year, we worked on strengths-based leadership.

31:02Davida Lindsay-Bell: And so again, positive psychology is also an undercurrent of psychological safety. so we've basically championed efforts around the organization for folks to lean into those strengths and the values stop being more aspirational and start being natural expressions of who they already are i also want to say structurally the how has also been through the introduction of a decision-making framework so again i think when there's complexity and not understanding you know gosh decision roles and all the other things in trying to adopt and push forward a culture of psychological safety becomes complicated.

31:39Davida Lindsay-Bell: So we also introduced Bain's rapid decision-making framework where, you know, we're trying to get clear on the who, right? So who's recommending, who is approving, who is informing, and then ultimately who is deciding. And so this has helped us create a culture of less ambiguity. Keep in mind, we're still working through it, but I think it's helped us structurally. And then also our people tech partners, right? And so So our people tech partners also play a big role. So CultureAmp, right? So again, from a philosophical standpoint, they too, right, created systems to help us carry this forward in how we're trying to essentially operationalize psychological safety in our business.

32:24Davida Lindsay-Bell: And then last year, just to wrap it up, is radical candor. So radical candor, again, again, back to that shifting from nice to kind, right? So how do I take that and introduce the organization and equip us with the tools to continue to have some of these more challenging, more difficult, you know, like conversations across the organization? So I've been really intentional in trying to, I guess, make psychological safety come to life. This is awesome. Okay. You're giving us like a playbook for operationalizing psychological safety. So what I'm hearing is you, you know, you looked at, you came up with core behavioral competencies.

33:04You came up with a new calibration rubric. You, what else? There were a few other things that you mentioned. I guess my question is. Culture amp. Culture amp. Rapid. Yeah, you know, you've, oh yeah, the decision making framework. How did you, where did you, how did you figure out where to start? you know like how did you put together the the roadmap for how you were going to operationalize this where do you start how do you figure out like who's going to take on what yeah what did

33:33Davida Lindsay-Bell: that oh my gosh gosh i can't i can't i can't divulge all my secrets no so seriously that's what the podcast is for no so we need to handle it by you okay this is so so so truly it is a playbook and it's interesting as i was sort of like you know thinking through this stuff it really i'll just say it started with again like the relational capital that i established and being that credible proactivist and i'm going to take it meta first right and establishing the relationship with my ceo right because in order to do all this you got to have air cover right and so like how do you have that relationship you know and like air cover and establish the degrees of credibility and like trust in order for someone to trust you.

34:20Davida Lindsay-Bell: So that is like, that is hardcore number one for anyone holding this degree of responsibility. And I think the other thing is also the peers. And I think you just, the peers, but you, right, as an individual, you really have to have, you really have to be certain on what your values are. And I think perseverance matters significantly because we have truly worked cultural transformation. So I think again, like the trust with the peers and understanding and getting connected with our values, the work started with us. So like we did some values work even as an executive team. And then, you know, like the team.

34:56Davida Lindsay-Bell: So the team that you have beneath you significantly matters. And so like, I don't know if y 'all watch Scandal, you know, I'm familiar with Olivia Pope and associates no oh my gosh teach us i'm missing out we're missing out for sure we've been under the newborn baby you have to so it's no longer on it's no longer aired but it's shonda rhymes right so like shonda rhymes scandal um very good show so i'm like olivia pope and i have my associates right and so like my team you know really are the ones who are my are my you know My accomplices are like right next to me, sort of like building, you know, like as we go.

35:36Davida Lindsay-Bell: And I've been fortunate enough to have people that have been on my team in previous lives say yes to me again. Right. And sort of like moving through like how we're wired. So the team matters. Right. And I think, again, like I have a Laura framework, listen, absorb, respond, act. And my point here is you have to be trusted not only at your peer level, but up, down, and across the organization. Right. So how do you build those relationships and basically have face time with everyone? Right. Like have an open door, welcome perspective. And again, I think you really have to listen to what people are saying and absorb even the nasty stuff.

36:16Davida Lindsay-Bell: So this just goes back to how important, you know, whatever it is you have by way of your listening strategy to actually pay attention and absorb everything that's coming through, including the comments, the feedback, because they're thematic. And so I don't want to build things that people aren't saying that they want or that they need. And then, you know, like, again, like as a learner, I try to stay up on what's happening in the business world, globally speaking, outside of Hannah. I think that's critical. so I that's that's really how and you know again like I I love to read I love to absorb information and I have my favorites and Amy Edmonton is one and it's a tried and two tested methodology that works I'll say that you know Dr.

37:01Davida Lindsay-Bell: Timothy Clark this wasn't my first stint with him when we were going through all that we went through at SF MoMA I brought him there right I'm like oh my gosh this four stages of this is incredible. Like, guys, you got to read this book because this is it, you know? So how do we relook at our performance process? How do we relook at everything through this lens to mobilize the way we need to mobilize? Did that answer your question, Daniel? Was that helpful? Oh, 100%. And I feel like Stephen probably has a few follow-up questions for you now. Yeah. I mean, in particular, like I just, in my experience, like having been a CEO, um, and having worked at some, some pretty, you know, big brands, I feel like that CE, that number one, the first part of the playbook that you walked us through that the relationship with the CEO is so clutch, like it makes or breaks, like whatever your agenda is for, you know, people in culture, in my opinion.

38:07And so I'm just curious, like, what can you share with us about your relationship with your CEO? Or like, even more broadly, what do you think that what does that relationship need to look like, in order to have the agency in the space that you think is required to do this really important work?

38:29Davida Lindsay-Bell: um so so let's just let's stick with hannah for a minute and i'll say the essence of you know like this component between my ceo and i matters and it's sort of like you know like a string and again like how you have to be that credible proactivist and always come to the table with your facts with your research right with your data and you know not only what you're picking up like internally but externally, because that matters significantly in selling an even more compelling story on the why behind what you want to drive. So the co-ownership, you know, for us here at HANA has an origin story that I also think is worth naming.

39:10Davida Lindsay-Bell: I think it was, in fact, I know it was. So like my first board meeting was in the fall of 2023. And I opened, you know, sort of like the people strategy story with a simple argument that strategy and culture are not separate tracks and that they share the same source right they share the purpose they share the vision they share the values and then they come together to drive results right and so strategy guides culture drives and both are required and so again like that has carried that lens has carried forward with me in my previous lives, but also here at HANA. And then here, you know, the framing was endorsed with not only our CEO, but also the board from the start.

39:57Davida Lindsay-Bell: And then everything after that followed. I'll share that at HANA, Cultivate Excellence. And it's the pillar of our strategy that I am, I guess, quote unquote, responsible for. So Cultivate Excellence is our strategic pillar and it's named as our strategic pillar with KPIs that are reported to the executive team as well as our investors and its definition is all about aligning purpose and values with disciplined execution, operating rigor, and sustained business impact. And it sits at the foundation, right, beneath all four of our business priorities because it's truly foundational, not adjacent to them.

40:37Davida Lindsay-Bell: And every pillar really depends on the support of it holding them up, right? And so again, like in practice here, our CEO, she's publicly accountable for the culture that we're building, whether or not she's in the room. And then the co-ownership for the person in my seat or me in my role, it's really showing up as like a genuine business and thought partner. and the credibility to co-own culture strategy comes with a CEO from demonstrating that you understand and that you, right, in your seat, know the business well. You know the enterprise. Again, back to that relational capital up, down, and across, and that you've established those relationships to be like the person that your CEO or even the board needs you to be.

41:26What are some of the KPIs for the strategic pillar of CultivateX?

41:32Davida Lindsay-Bell: Gosh. So the ones that are that are out there. So we have our let I'll say supply chain, our distribution footprint. So how distributed are we are across the world? We also have your core. Right. So like engagement. We're also looking at our workforce composition. Right. So these are our like top line KPIs. And then, of course, we have retention. And then I want to say beneath that, of course, we have drivers and one being, you know, organizational excellence. love it and so we have time for a few more questions and i know we um i personally am a massive fan of amy edmondson we had the privilege of meeting amy at one of our clients uh so we have a customer oc tanner they're like one of the og reward and recognition platforms i think they made like ring i think they make the the when the olympics were in the u.s they made like the gold like the medals for the Olympians, but they also have like a rewards and recognition.

42:35Oh, you did? Not here.

42:36Davida Lindsay-Bell: Yeah. Very familiar with those. Okay. And so we, they hired us to do some podcasting at their, at their conference. And Amy was like the keynote speaker and I was blown away by just like everything she had to say. And so I know you are a big fan, even going as far as working with certified facilitators in her teachings. And so, like, just tell us the origin story behind, you know, your passion behind, you know, some of the principles that Amy shares and how that has helped, you know, your agenda. Yeah. So it's interesting you say that you heard her speak and that you're also a huge fan. And let's just pick up with, I believe it's a recent book, The Right Kind of Wrong.

43:25Davida Lindsay-Bell: And I think The Right Kind of Wrong, you know, again, gives permission without removing like a degree of like accountability. So I'm boiling it down because the book is quite is quite hefty. And so I think holding that is pretty difficult for a senior team driving real business pressure. And so I'll just say that our CEO is also a Harvard grad. And so she went to, I think it was a woman seminar some time back. And I think later that evening sent me a note and she just was like, oh my gosh, I just saw Amy and I would love to see how we can work through her work on the right kind of wrong. And so I took that as my cue to, you know, do a degree of diligence and like really look out there to see, you know, who truly are the people that can bring this forward.

44:22Davida Lindsay-Bell: And that's really certified like in her works. And so we worked with a company specifically called Thought Design and Thought Design was brought in to really support us in operationalizing the right kind of wrong at the exec level. And so what supported us or like what stood out was like the simple degree of taxonomy and us getting more uncomfortable with embracing the concept of failure. So, yeah. So just I think we've always had like some degree of affinity with her, but it also supported us in being able to discern sort of like preventable versus like intelligent failures and intelligent failures.

45:04Davida Lindsay-Bell: Again, back to the whole concept of psychological safety. That's what it's all about. Experimentation and folks just continuing to ideate and flex a muscle that I think sometimes is often stifled. Tell us more about preventable versus intelligent failures. Like, give us give us some examples. So, yeah. So I think let's just look at, gosh, we'll just take the test and learn of AI. Right. So like the test and learn of AI. and when you look at that from an enterprise perspective i think a lot of organizations are testing and learning whatever llm we're going to bring at the enterprise level right and so it's like let's test and learn let's test and learn yet at the same time you're also creating a pool like in your environment and so you test and learn you sign up for a pilot but we're testing it we're trying it and then we find out well heck right let's just this is just not we've been testing and learning, testing and learning.

46:02Davida Lindsay-Bell: You know, we had our small pilot group and this just is not what we need, like at an organizational level. So that is an intelligent failure. Right. And so like rather than it being something that you had all the information for, you had all the data for, right. You had all the knowledge for, you had all the feedback, you had all the perspective for, and you're going to do it anyway. Right. And so that, that is like, I guess, the delineation between intelligent and preventable failures. I'm just curious, like we, Daniel and I meet with all sorts of different companies, but given your specific business, I'm just curious what some intelligent, other intelligent AI tests have looked like at the company.

46:46Davida Lindsay-Bell: What I'll say is we have been looking at AI from like a three-pronged approach, right? So we already have systems. Let's just take my partner, Coltram, for example. Right. So I think it's also growing curious with your vendors and understanding what degrees of AI do your tools provide us and how do we activate them and continue to train our population. Right. That's one. I think so that's also test and learn, test and learn. Right. So and then getting feedback on, you know, OK, so how is AI skills coach working for you? Right. Manager or employee, et cetera, et cetera. And then providing that feedback to the product team at Culture Am just so we can continue test and learn, get better, test and learn, get better.

47:27Davida Lindsay-Bell: I think the second was the example I just gave, right? So enterprise LLM strategy. We all know that these things are happening so quickly. And so like LLMs change, like by the hour, claw, chat GPT, perplexity, whatever, right? So opening that up to have like cells or even what we're calling our AI champions network be, right, the population testing and learning, getting training to help galvanize the others to actually continue to test and learn as well. So that to me, again, is embracing intelligent failure. I think the third is, you know, the more complex cases. So let's take, there's so many tools, let's take our creative team, creative and design team, who are testing products right now on how perhaps this tool can make our creative process better, the production cycles, and how we can make our design cycles better, right, in adopting product and making earlier decisions.

48:26Davida Lindsay-Bell: So that is like, I think the most real world applications that I can give on how AI right now is looking inside of HANA. And so I'm curious, there is a method to my madness. I will bring it back to a point. I'm curious, I've got to imagine that the investments you've made on the psychological safety side have benefited the organization on the AI journey, the transformation journey. And I'm curious to get your thoughts and your perspectives and any kind of anecdotal data you have to support the comment or, you know, my instinct and real data that you have. And I bring this up because for at least the last year, you know, we have repeatedly heard from HR leaders that like this is a really tough this is a really tough change for people.

49:18there's a lack of trust there you know there's fear uncertainty doubt about our jobs about like whether or not we're going to have a job there there's fear uncertainty and doubt around like careers like i've invested my entire career and now this technology is making that obsolete like you know in a company that does not have psychological safety i could see people not even responding to surveys, like a Pulse survey around, like, how do you want to use AI? And so I'm just curious, like, what does that look like? And how has the journey been? And have you maybe seen some benefits from some of the other work you're doing?

49:56Davida Lindsay-Bell: You know, I think 100%. And to your point, it all overlaps. When I think about our recent humans, times, machines, conversations that we're having with CHROs, there's one theme that keeps coming up. The vision is clear, the pressure is real, but the roadmap is a little bit less clear. It's one thing to talk about the future of work. It's another to sit down with your CEO and say, here's how work, the workforce, and our organization really need to change. But I get it. There are a lot of difficult questions that you need to answer. Like, what work should we redesign? How will AI reshape roles and careers?

50:34What kind of organization do we need to move faster? And these are exactly the questions explored in Deloitte's latest human capital trends report. There's some interesting findings in there. The report shows that we're no longer balancing tensions. We're at a tipping point. The report brings together insights from thousands of leaders and explores how organizations can build a human edge. It's about moving beyond simply having humans and machines to creating a system where their capabilities multiply. It looks at how companies are redesigning work for this new future, how to shift from a mindset of cost efficiency to want to value creation, and how to move from static plans to dynamic orchestration of talent and technology.

51:16In other words, it helps turn big future of work conversations into practical leadership questions for a world that won't sit still. If you're thinking about how your organization evolves in the age of AI, go check it out. It's a great read. I read it a couple of times. So if you want to learn more, you can find the link in the show notes.

51:34Davida Lindsay-Bell: And so again, our journey, I guess, in providing the conditions in order for folks to feel safe enough and vulnerable enough to experiment have been built over the last two and a half years, right? With all the building blocks, including psychological safety, the way our values have been expressed and the way that we set our performance model forward, centering on development and growth and not feeling, you know, so punitive, right? But staying curious, again, it's one of our values is curiosity. And so again, truly being intentional around those things. I also just have to say that the degrees of trust permeate within, you know, like Hannah Anderson, I just go back, you mentioned engagement surveys, but we have had very high degrees of like success just in even capturing the sentiment of our employees.

52:28Davida Lindsay-Bell: And so, you know, like I think, you know, when organizations are going down, we went up and saw an eight point engagement survey gain with 95 % of our employees like participating. This last spring, we had 96 % of employees participate and we stayed flat when others again are going down, but we're seeing other things go up. And so I think, again, like that to me signals you guys are really establishing some degree of trust and people believe that their voices matter and that they carry forward even when you're looking to implement AI. So I think creating those conditions have supported, I think, some of the success that we're seeing.

53:11Davida Lindsay-Bell: And yeah, I think while people are feeling fearful because of all that's happening like in the world and that they're seeing, you know, we have been very clear and even shaping an AI philosophy that's all about augmenting human judgment to unleash creativity. Right. And so like just making it feel, you know, safe, inviting and welcoming for people to really activate their thinking on where the world is, quite frankly. I feel like we could talk to you for another 30 minutes. I would love that. We are now at the time to move it on to rapid fire questions. We ask the same four questions to every guest and we'll try to get you through it as quickly as possible.

53:51So question one, what's one piece of advice that you give to somebody who's just starting their career in HR today?

53:58Davida Lindsay-Bell: Don't set out to be the HR person. I think stay curious and be more of a business person leading through people. Love that. Next question. if your team gave you a superpower nickname, what would it be? Elastigirl, hands down. Again, back to being that Disney fan. Elastigirl. I knew you were going to have a quick answer for that one. Yeah. Elastigirl, hands down. That's awesome. What's a strategy or practice from another company that you'd love to steal? So this question is interesting. I honestly don't have one right now. And I have to say that it's because of where we are and all that I think we have openly discussed today.

54:39Davida Lindsay-Bell: I think we're all still figuring it out because the first type of company that came to mind is someone who might be doing AI well. And again, I think things are changing by the hour, changing by the day. And so, you know, I honestly, I don't, I don't have one right now. And I think that's an exciting thing. Hopefully that, that kept you curious. Yeah. I mean, you've had, you've had like innovation on innovation on innovate and transformations going on. So like I, I, that totally, that lines up for me. And that also brings us to our last rapid fire question. Who should we have on the show next?

55:13We've been super blessed to have people like you through our network. And if there's someone that you believe, like we should shine a light on and, you know, elevate kind of the great work they're doing, who would that be?

55:26Davida Lindsay-Bell: Can I give you two? So the first. OK, great. Thank you. The great is sorry. The first is Edward Brasino. And he's who I mentioned previously on. He's the author, again, of the book, The Performance Paradox. and you know like i think you know folks need to continue wrestling with how do you balance performance and learning at the same time so i think he would be someone need to have i think the other guest is a father-daughter duo and it's james d white and his daughter krista white and um james d white is the former ceo of jamba juice and together i think they make a perfect pair in sort of like taking the CEO lens.

56:08Davida Lindsay-Bell: And she's more of like the people side, right? And talking about culture. And, you know, I think they're intergenerational. I think they would be they would be pretty rich in having on the show. We would love to have all the father daughter duo. Like, that's that's like, that's a dream, right? You know, to work with your daughter one day i can't even imagine that if they want it yeah right so it's like yeah i'd probably drive or you know okay our last tradition is something we call one word or phrase close so whatever's coming to mind for you as we as we wrap this up foundation yeah i want to say trust i'm gonna go with blown away.

56:57I really have been blown away by DeVito by the work, the amount, the scope, the sheer scope of like what you just walked us through. And, you know, and my, I'm going to go two words, clarity, you just seem to have this clarity with these really complicated topics. Honestly, we've talked to a lot of people like smart, you know, good people that have struggled with this and and i love the clarity you have around it i my superpower would have been or something encyclopedia related um and so thank you so much maybe now you're part of the family and hopefully a lot of i we would love to have you back and share some of the encyclopedia and um oh i'd love that if you're ever in austin yeah now we're talking and we're gonna be in the Bay Area.

57:51You're in San Francisco, right?

57:51Davida Lindsay-Bell: I'm actually, no, I'm further north. I'm out in Sacramento County. Yeah, I have a studio in San Francisco. Well, we will be close to you on November 12th because our next live event is in San Francisco. And so maybe we can find a way to do something while we're out there. Well, I'd be honored. Well, thank you so much. Yeah. And we, you know, A, we were honored for you joining us today and we would be double honored if we could find a way to connect again soon. And thank you so much for trusting us and being vulnerable and answering all the tough questions. It really was a joy and the perfect way to wrap up a work week.

58:31So thank you.

58:32Davida Lindsay-Bell: Daniel, lovely connecting with you too. Likewise, this was so much fun. All right, thank you. Have a good weekend. Bye. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Modern People Leader. We really, really appreciate it. And if you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five-star rating. It would mean the world to us. And connect with us on LinkedIn. We want to know what you think about the show. And you can find links to both of our profiles in the show notes. Thanks again for listening and see you on the next episode.