344 - A CPO Succession Masterclass: Katya Laviolette (Former CPO) & Gabrielle Caron (New CPO) of 1Password

0:00Gabrielle Caron: And so good succession is like is actually taking that piece of paper and you in the box and actually I call it operationalizing it, like making it happen. And it's not easy because you have to have the individual who wants to do it being myself. You have to have the individual being Gab who also wants to do it. And I said, well, have you thought about being a CPO? And actually Gab's answer was, well, I'm not sure.

0:27Katya Laviolette: I'm someone who has never built my career with a destination. I believe in growing, seizing opportunities, being curious, learning and developing and just leaning into the moment. I think that's how the best things come to fruition. And I also see often people do the reverse. They're really trying to engineer this specific career, advocate constantly for these roles. And like, if you surround yourself with the right people and you put out there the right intentions, those things will work out in my experience. You're listening to the Modern People Leader podcast, where we go behind the scenes with today's top HR leaders and work experts.

1:05Katya Laviolette: We talk to them about how they've gotten to where they're at, what they do every day, and what they see coming next for the future of work. Hope you enjoy.

1:17Katya Laviolette: Hello, hello, Katya, Gab, welcome to the Modern People Leader. thank you i think this is the first like actual succession episode we've ever had i don't think we've done have we done like at least not in this kind of format i don't think anybody's ever volunteered to come onto the podcast to talk about this so yeah this is gonna be a good one this is gonna be because no one's done it this well so far and so they're rarely bragging about it? I love it. Yes. Well, we want to get into it. We want to hear the whole story. Before we do that, we have a couple of traditions we need to get through. The first is what we call good news stories.

1:59Katya Laviolette: We always kick off with some positivity, could be work-related, personal-related, both if you've got an abundance of good news. And we'd like our guests to go first.

2:09Gabrielle Caron: so yes good news uh well on my front it's really about my transition and why we're doing this podcast today on succession and i announced my formal transition out of my full-time chief people officer role a couple of weeks ago planning to do portfolio work in a part-time capacity and the good news is i feel really good about it it's we're going to talk about how intentional it has been and how planned it's been but you know when the rubber hits the road and you actually announce that you kind of get nervous. And so far, so good. It's been a really, really great few weeks.

2:44Katya Laviolette: Mine is about staying sane in the new role, I guess. So I am quite the active person. And so this weekend, I completed a trail run with my husband the day before my 14 year old completed her first trail run. So it was 12 kilometers. I'll let you do the conversion. And my husband and I did what was meant to be 25. We got lost maybe on purpose because we wanted to extend the fun, but turned into 28 kilometers. And we completed it hand in hand, smiling. People were even yelling, show us that ring. And so it was a proud moment. And it helped with my staying sane in these hectic CPO jobs. Just curious, what does that equate to step-wise?

3:22Katya Laviolette: Were you wearing a watch? That's a good question. I was wearing a watch. If I had to guess, it would be like...

3:29Gabrielle Caron: Well, 12 ,000. I don't know. At least like 60 ,000? well 12 000 steps is 10 kilometers right no i don't know that sounds right yeah well to give

3:45Katya Laviolette: you an idea in my whole day so there was a little bit of walking there a little bit of walking afterwards it was 42 700 steps yesterday yeah that would make sense and you're also going up you're also going uphill too it was a 1300 meter incline so it was like at one point there were ropes. There was climbing with using ropes. That sounds terrifying. It sounds like something you would do though, Daniel, like at least the height part and no height. Yeah. Like the, the running part. Yes. But the heights that would freak me out. But it's part of the fun. That's how you stay focused in the moment, you know, cause you can't, you can't be thinking about anything else.

4:20Katya Laviolette: That's true. Steven, you want to go next? I'll go next. Yeah. We moved in to our new home. So we bought a, we've lived in a neighborhood for a long time. So my wife and I, we were a COVID couple and we moved in together during COVID. But we, the Austin market has just been so insane, the real estate market. And then finally, six months ago, something changed and we went after a couple didn't get them or they weren't right. And then we finally found one and we moved in this past weekend. So it's a little crazy, but I should be having a new background, which is like this upstairs studio that we're working on.

5:04Katya Laviolette: So that's my good news. And I finally have a place to put drums again because I've been playing. I'm a big drummer. I got really into it leading up to my son being born last December, but then, of course, had to get rid of the drums. And now we have space to where I could actually play drums inside. So we'll see. A man can hope. A man can dream. I didn't even connect that this new background was the new house. Oh, really? No, I forgot. Like this weekend has been a blur for me. So, well, that leads me into my good news. My good news is that my best friend got married this weekend. He had a wedding in Destin, Florida, and so had some beach time and also had a lot of quality time with some of my best friends that I rarely get to see.

5:53Katya Laviolette: and so yeah I'm a little bit tired this Monday afternoon but it was a great time and my second good news is that I will be in Vegas this week for HR tech and I'm going solo this time Stephen couldn't make it and so we have or I'm doing two panels and recording four episodes and so I'm a little nervous-sided to use a word that Stephen introduced me to it's a lot for a few days but But everything's looking good. We have a plan. But yeah, I'm getting a little bit nervous. But it's going to be good. It's going to be great.

6:31Gabrielle Caron: It'll be great. How many podcasts have you all done? I mean, you're pros at it. So you'll be great.

6:40Katya Laviolette: We've done over 300. I think we're at like 339. But there's probably like an additional 10 that didn't make the official count. And so I think like, yeah, around 350, a lot. Insane. And that's a lot of podcasts. So you're going to do great. And HR Tech, there's something about it. Like I hate it before and after, but like while I'm there, I have to, it's nice to run into people and to get the energy from seeing so many fans and followers. But today we want, I want to get back to this succession story and we can't get to the succession story without the origin story of how both of you, your paths were different, but they got you to the same place.

7:25Katya Laviolette: You've worked together. Now you're going to be leading the charge, Gab, on your own. And so I'll let y 'all choose who starts the story, but tell us, you know, what was the journey to get to where y 'all have been? Hey, y 'all, we are officially one week out from NPL Live San Francisco. And when we were putting this one together, we knew we had to make room for the question that every HR leader is wrestling with right now, which is how do you make big people decisions when nobody knows what the work is going to look like in five years? That's why Eric Bokelberg from Deloitte and Paul Rubenstein from Vizier are joining us to dig into how to decide your no regret bets, how workforce planning is changing as AI evolves, and how to get people on board with all of it.

8:07Katya Laviolette: And that's just one of our sessions. We're also going to have a live podcast with a few amazing people leaders from the bay area we're gonna have the cpos of replit binance.us lightspeed venture partners and the head of hr from versell i truly think this is gonna be one for the ages and so if you want to come hang out with a hundred of the top hr leaders on november 12th this is your nudge to go get your ticket you can grab it at live.modernpeopolleader.com that's live.modernpeopolleader.com hope to see you there i like katya started the story since She was the creator of the story.

8:42Gabrielle Caron: Creator. Sounds like a cook. Well, I joined One Password almost five years ago at the end of 2021, right on the heels of our Series C fundraising. We were 500 employees at that time, mainly Canada, the US and the UK. And the whole mandate was to really scale the company, build it out into a global operation, really build out the B2B function as well. and now lately, obviously, all the AI functionality. And in doing so, my whole mandate was to build. And that's a lot of fun. And so I got to have an existing, very competent team. But with what we needed, we needed to have other skill sets. So long story short, that was in January of 2022.

9:31Gabrielle Caron: And one of my first hires, I thought, we really need someone who can focus on the talent piece, on the people analytics, on employer brand, and so on and so forth. And in my network, I'm used to working with a very well-known executive search firm. And that firm was actually in the process of talking to Gab. I did not know Gab. And they said, hey, you know, there's this individual who's potentially going to join us. Well, one story led to another. And I mainly convinced Gab to come and join 1Password and help me build the function. and that's how we got to know one another and built out one password together and we'll get into you know how we develop that whole succession piece and so forth but that's the crux of it

10:17Katya Laviolette: yeah I actually there was this little step before that and I think it's now that I'm reflecting on it I think it was destiny but the it was we were December 22nd I mean actually you were just about to accept your or you had accepted probably you were about to start you were preparing your things for your start. And we had a, one of my former colleagues I used to work in consulting had been a client of Katya's and he was like, you should chat with Katya. You're reflecting on these opportunities. You're thinking about your career. You should have a chat with her. And so we have this like first conversation that's like, Hey, tell me about your aspirations.

10:49Katya Laviolette: What do you want to do? And we have a great chat and we literally hang up and she texts me like five minutes later. She's like, I think we need to chat again tomorrow. And I was like, uh, sure. Okay. And then in the And on that call, she's like, I'm about to start this role. I'm thinking about my team. I'm thinking about this. I've met a lot of individuals, great talent. And so the rest is exactly how she framed it. But it's interesting because in a way, it's like we've gone full circle because from the beginning, it started out as a mentorship journey and we're closing it as a mentorship journey.

11:18Katya Laviolette: Just curious, Katya, like what about Gab from that first meeting made you say, we need to talk again like tomorrow? Do you remember what your...

11:28Gabrielle Caron: Yes.

11:28Katya Laviolette: What was it about Gab?

11:29Gabrielle Caron: I had worked with Gab comes from a decade of McKinsey. And I had done some work with a number of people over the years from McKinsey. And I very much like the profile of certain, I call them operators at McKinsey, because they're very both strategic, and then they can take something and be very concrete about it. And so it's almost like I use the word a lot, like Gab is like a utility player. So she might have a defined area that she's built expertise in, which was talent as her landing point at 1Password. But someone that is curious, that will take things on, will want to learn, will also be able to pivot and say, well, maybe I didn't do it great this way.

12:14Gabrielle Caron: Should I look at it this way? So very, very self-aware. So all those characteristics are very much someone that I would describe as a high potential person fitting in an environment because we are in a very high scale environment at 1Password, high growth, lots of ambiguity, lots of change and being able to pivot constantly. And so all those elements were certainly things that were as like, oh, I need to build a team of very individuals who are specialists in their areas, but who are actually gonna go out of their lane so they can grow as well.

12:45Katya Laviolette: And Gab, what was your first impression of Katya? Leaving a decade of consulting and McKinsey, I knew I needed someone who saw me. I had built a group of sponsors at McKinsey. I had often been seen as a trusted advisor. And obviously, when you start a new environment after that long, that's really important to you. And so I think without even knowing it, the fact that she probably immediately caught on and was like, hey, this woman has potential, you know? And so I think that probably was like one of the most triggering points. And then the fact that we were having already very honest conversations.

13:15Katya Laviolette: So when she first called me about the talent piece, I was like, I don't know, you know, hiring like while I've done it, you know, I've done it and I don't know. And so she was like, OK, I hear you. We can do that. I probably said I hear you. She said, yes, you said it. Or I was like, I hear you. So I said, I hear you. I should do talent. But then she was like, but we need to build out people analytics. And I was like, oh, analytics, building a function that speaks to me. And then I think that like the fact that she saw me, the fact that we were starting to make it interesting, playing around with what the role could look like.

13:47Katya Laviolette: And then after that, you know, I had the full then I had the full proper interview process. And I met a lot of colleagues, but even how she was with the honest conversations we were having through that process really spoke to me because it was also a very honest and fair process. The fact that I didn't fast track that was important to me coming into like building that talent function. Somebody that would have like short track you would. I would that would have been to me somebody who speaks from both sides of their mouths. definitely not something that I'm a big proponent of. So probably just throughout those conversations, there were more and more data points that really supported it.

14:16Katya Laviolette: And then there was the background, like she said, like I was in conversation with another agency that was like, wow, the opportunity to work with Katya, that's amazing. My former colleagues, I had a few other colleagues that had worked cross paths with her at other jobs. And so the proof at one point, the proof points just start building up and then there's no perfect next opportunity. It's always when you're observing opportunities on paper, you just got to lean in at one point and follow what means most to you, right? And sponsorship and being seen was one of them. I love that. And so Katya, we've had you on the podcast.

14:44Katya Laviolette: I should have looked at the official count before this, but I think this is like your third or fourth time. And so just to give our listeners some context and on what 1Password does, can you give us like the updated elevator pitch from 2026? Like I imagine the business has changed the last few years. What does that sound like now, that elevator pitch.

15:06Gabrielle Caron: Yes. Well, I am going to ask Gab to do that because she is now in the operating role, but it's definitely, it's my third podcast with all of you. Love doing these, but yes, over to you, Gab. What do we do now at 1Password?

15:19Katya Laviolette: Yeah, things move so quickly. So I'm trying to position myself in 2026, what you would have said in 2026. But I mean, 1Password's mission has always been to secure, to keep, to make the secure thing, the symbol thing, right? And so So we have that used to be password manager for over close to 20 years. We were creating a password manager, keeping people's passwords and credentials safe. But now with the evolution of agents and the fact that that has taken a whole new meaning, right? We need to make sure that we are securing all devices, all things, humans, agents, whoever has any access to credentials on any type of device at all time.

15:54Katya Laviolette: And so we've really evolved to become multi-product, multifaceted. We've got a lot of variety of customers, whether it's B2B and B2C. And so it's a fast, quickly evolving space, but trying to be all things to keep all things secure at once in one place as simply as possible. Definitely needed. Definitely needed. And yeah, where everything is going. And so let's jump into this conversation around succession. And Katia, I am going to bring this one back to you. And I'm just curious, like, to you, what is successful, real succession mean? Not just the planning that's talked about every now and then by the board and the leadership teams, like, to you, how should it be done?

16:39Katya Laviolette: What is the proper way to approach succession? And, you know, how did that drive like the approach y 'all took with your exit?

16:47Gabrielle Caron: we like I've done so many plans on paper in so many different companies about succession and you do like the nine box grid and who's ready now who's ready and one to two and so forth but this is like a true kind of use case of like real succession and so gab and I've been talking about it for a while and we thought it'd be really cool to be able to like talk about it from a thought leadership perspective because when I joined we have to kind of go back to this whole thing of Sorry, Gab, you have a very good memory of December 22nd. It's obviously the age because I don't have the exact details.

17:21Gabrielle Caron: But, you know, when I joined, which was just shortly after the holiday period, and then Gab joined, I recall kind of formally in the spring, a couple, like a few weeks later, my whole point about joining 1Password was I always said at the end that this would be or at the beginning, I said this would be really my last full-time operating role. I have been intentionally planning to do other work in terms of this portfolio career for some time. It's not something that just came out of the blue. And so as I was thinking even back then about building a team, I was like, well, I really need these specialists who can actually go out of their zone and build and build and develop with us.

18:00Gabrielle Caron: And Gab certainly stepped up to that. So over time, in the last couple of years, she took on more and more responsibilities as we kind of grew the business. And so good succession is like, is actually taking that piece of paper and you in the box and actually, I call it operationalizing it, like making it happen. And it's not easy because you have to have the individual who wants to do it being myself. You have to have the individual being Gab who also wants to do it. And we had a discussion probably about two years in, you know, the regular performance review and so forth, thinking of, you know, where's my eventual pathway and so forth.

18:39Gabrielle Caron: And I said, well, have you thought about being a CPO? And actually, Gab's answer was, well, I'm not sure. And I'm like, well, I think you need to think about this. I said, I think you have a lot of potential and I think you're very able to learn. And the whole point is you're very, very good from a strategic and an influencing standpoint with people. and I said, think about it, like think about what you want to do and then come back to me. And so several weeks later and the fewer other performance reviews, I kept pushing it. And one thing led to another. And then I wanted to plan kind of where I was going and so forth.

19:14Gabrielle Caron: So we started this kind of larger discussion with the organization and really built out a plan, a really actually very detailed plan on paper over a period of time, because the typical succession is you have all these little boxes and then you're like, okay, we don't really have these. It says ready now, but the person's not ready now. I'm going to go to an external firm and spend, well, anyways, I won't talk about the quotes. That would be divesting important information from a fee perspective, but a fair amount of money on executive search. And we didn't have to do that. And I think that's a great story to tell.

19:47Gabrielle Caron: And it's also, but it took time and it took a lot, a fair amount of time. And it took a lot of, you know, back and forth and a lot of work, just figuring out when to transfer certain things and then where I am today in terms of how do I switch? We were talking at the beginning about good news stories. How do I actually switch to advising as opposed to operating and letting go? And so all that has been something that we're building towards. And you can only do that when you actually have really, really good chemistry with the person. And the other piece, we just kind of co-wrote a Forbes article around it, is the fact that I should not hire me.

20:24Gabrielle Caron: And I always say you don't want many of me running around. And so that diversity is very important for the next step. So that's how I would classify or qualify, Stephen, like what good succession planning is.

20:37Katya Laviolette: And so, Gab, I want to go back to the moment that Katya is like, do you want to be a chief people officer? And you're like, maybe. What got you from maybe to yes? yeah I don't even know if it was maybe or if it was like no you're like that sounds really scary I don't know we were in we were I was just these are meaningful moments right and so you remember them we were in Los Angeles we were in LA having my performance review um I remember that one I yeah that one I think a few things the first what I will say to people is like I'm glad that we mentioned this piece in the succession because I'm someone who has never built my career with a destination.

21:19Katya Laviolette: I believe in growing, seizing opportunities, being curious, learning and developing and just leaning into the moment. I think that's how the best things come to fruition. The best things that are meant to happen in the moment that they're meant to happen. It might sound a little bit too laissez-faire, but frankly, it's worked out really well for me. And I also see often people do the reverse. They're really trying to engineer this specific career, advocate constantly for these roles. And like, if you surround yourself with the right people, and you put out there the right intentions, those things will work out in my experience.

21:52Katya Laviolette: So what happened was Katya gave me the space after that, like she planted a seed, and I trusted her in it. And she continued to challenge me in ways that were meaningful to me. And so I'm someone who does thrive on having more challenges, more problems to solve more. and it's never for me, it's never been about the ownership. So that's she's often said she's given me more responsibilities. She would frame it as I have something new for you to tackle, a new problem to solve. Never like, you know, let me grab all these departments and oversee the biggest. It was never any of that I had. I've always had some of them are still with me today.

22:26Katya Laviolette: Phenomenal peers. And so it was always about how can I help solve this problem and better partner with people in the organization? So I evolved because of the way that she would frame it, the way that I would think through it. And I remained curious and I leaned into the opportunity And we had a lot of transparent conversations. And so even when we had the conversation with our CEO, I also had the conversation with him and I said, Hey, you know where you want to go. I think I see where you want to go. I think I've got, I believe I have something to offer, but if it, if it's not it, if that's not what you need, I am all good.

22:56Katya Laviolette: I'm like super committed. I believe in this company. I believe in the function. I will, I'm a great VP. And so I'm here. I'm in it. If you think you want more, if you think that aren't my skills and my aspirations and yours align, put me in coach. And so that allowed me to have also a lot of transparent conversations. You've got clear expectations from the get go. And, and then I just kept saying, I'll take it a day at a time because you never know also, right? We started this a year and a bit out. So you, a lot of things could have happened between now and then. And so I find that that also gave me that like emotional separation to just like lean into it.

23:31Katya Laviolette: We tackled every month and every part of the transition journey as a phase on its own almost. and that made it exciting.

23:37Gabrielle Caron: I would just add on that because there's also like in this whole piece, there's like a lot of emotion. So Gab, as she was saying was, okay, I think this is what I want to do. Let's, let's go forward and, you know, explore and evolve and so forth. And then there's emotion on my side too, because I'm like, wow, I'm letting go of like this 30 year career. And so you have to be able to have two people who are very honest about coming together and sharing and I don't I'm not typically someone who's very in my profession and our profession in HR you you end up being quite guarded you have a few confidants and so forth and when you have a like a supervisor employee relationship it's quite traditional a viewpoint I preface it is that you're always like oh you know you need to like make sure that you're very guarded in terms of what your opinions or your emotions are.

24:32Gabrielle Caron: And so I also evolved myself in that thinking in the last couple of years to say, well, I'm kind of nervous about this too. Like I'm putting this out there and I'm nervous about losing my identity as I go forward. And so having someone like Gab, who's very high, high empathy is very, very, was very helpful for me. I wanted to add that because there's like a chemistry between the two.

24:57Katya Laviolette: And that, I'm glad you brought that up, Katika, because I was about to ask, like, letting go can be really, really hard, especially after, you know, especially this being kind of a major transition, you know, from one way of working to another way of working. And, you know, I, it sounds like Gav was really able to create trust between the two of you that you could be vulnerable. And, you know, you could share the information that you needed to share, you know, which probably was largely work-related information, but also, you know, just about you as a person and how you, your personal approach to the job.

25:38Katya Laviolette: And was there anything, like, I guess, you know, what advice would you have giving to others that are going through a transition, you know, for people that may be in GavC, just how they could approach this in a way that would really allow everyone to make the most and get to that real succession of talking about?

25:56Gabrielle Caron: Yeah, no, it's a it's an excellent question, because I think at the foundational element, there's this piece of trust. And so as you, you know, we've worked together for four and a half plus years. So, you know, you've seen Gab has seen the best of me, the not so great of me, and vice versa. And so when you're and when you're working in high growth, constant change, and so forth, you really do forge bonds with your team. This is probably in my entire career, one of the environments where I've been extremely open about myself and also less guarded as an individual with my team. So it's kind of like what you see is what you get.

26:34Gabrielle Caron: So people know how I tick. And so when you have that trust with each other, it's okay if you have like a bad moment because the other person knows where it's coming from. And so in these types of scenarios, you actually have to have a lot of communication. And so we would, you know, we actually had a very detailed plan that we co-created and co-created with the CEO and so forth. And we would meet regularly. It's hard in a remote company, but Gab and I are lucky we are in the same city. So we did much more face to face where we could actually not just have 30 minute Zoom calls, we could go into detail.

27:13Gabrielle Caron: And at one point, I think you remember this, Gab, I was like, we were like sitting in front of a whiteboard at the office. And I was like, I don't know, like how to transfer, transfer all this information. Like, I don't know. Like, I just it's in my head, like all this, these years of doing certain things. And then we kind of got into like, well, a lot of it is context and so forth. So we then shifted gears, and we started to run through like clear, concrete examples. And now the beauty of it is, you know, Gab's leading that forefront. And so she can call on me if she needs context, and so forth, but she's owning it.

27:49Gabrielle Caron: And I have clearly shifted to say, well, this is how I would do it, you may not do it that way. Or this is how I've done it in the past, but it's over to you to decide. So to your question, it's all about trust and understanding how the other person ticks and what are the triggers emotionally for the person like you need to be pretty self aware, because you're actually both, you're both kind of in an emotional moment, they're just for different reasons.

28:15Katya Laviolette: I can add to that. I would add three pieces. The first is what we're describing our relationship and our partnership has had almost three phases. So we had a very typical traditional employee, employer, boss relationship for the first three and a half years. This, while we had that conversation in Los Angeles, like back then it wasn't like, well, you should think about it because I might be, it was much more up in the air than that, frankly. And so for the first few years, it was very much a traditional, like Katya says the direction. And so this transparency and vulnerability, I'm also a little bit more guarded at first.

28:52Katya Laviolette: And so we were very, Katya and I would have one-on-ones very down to business. And like, and so I would just to cautious any listeners, it didn't always look like this and that doesn't, that's not any signs, but that's not a bad thing. Right. But it's more just not to create this, like this expectation that all those two fell in love, professional love relationship right away. And it was all planned. no it was not like that like we had a very normal typical we were three direct reports who all had similar treatments we each were valued employees and direct reports to her for different reasons and and that was very important to you Katja and to me as well um for our first like three years so and then we had our transition oh gosh our year of transition that's where our relationship all shapes and forms I mean there were moments where I was like are you sure you want to retire and there's moments where she's like are you sure you want this job and we would like emotional like have these and so that's where time was in our favor because we had time to work through those phases of the transition phases of me self-doubt maybe her even doubting me because then suddenly i didn't seem as committed or i seem you know and vice versa right is she actually gonna retire because this seems very and so timing really helped us um on that front and now we're in this whole new phase where she's just like such a safe space for me.

30:07Katya Laviolette: And she knows me so well and she trusts me. And so she's there to advise emotionally, advise professionally. She's very close to our COO who I report to and we have a close relationship with as well. She's close to her. And so she knows all of us very well. And so now we're in this like other phase. Right. And so I think that's also important to call out in this in this is that in this podcast is that like time was time really played in our favor there to give room for these these relationships to evolve and really play

30:36Gabrielle Caron: to the strength and it did play in favor but it was interesting at the beginning because everyone was like why is this taking so long and so for me i'm a planner everyone people who know me know that and so i was like well i want to plan this off-boarding in the right way to set gab up for success but also to set the company up for success and for me not to go like we say like not to go cold turkey. Like, I mean, I've been working for 30 years, like I can't just like twiddle my thumbs the next day. And I had this kind of plan of this portfolio career. So actually, the first thing we did, which I think people thought was a bit interesting was, we just took my direct reports.

31:14Gabrielle Caron: So Gab, and my other two direct reports, we are all form this bond over the last four and a half years, as Gab is referring to a very, very close team, very competent team, one of the best teams I've ever worked with. And I said, Okay, guys, you should not be surprised. I've been talking about this for a long time, the time has come. And so we actually built out a plan backwards 12 months, and made sure that the current team was fully aware. So it allowed, it allowed them not to think, okay, what's Katya doing, giving her this additional file, or this additional project, and so on and so forth.

31:48Gabrielle Caron: And so by the time we arrived to the summer of this year, we then told a larger swath and that next level down and my colleagues at the ELT. And then we announced it at the organization. And people were like, well, that's a three-step process. And I'm like, trust me, the best thing you can do in communication is by the time it gets out, no one is surprised. And I think in retrospect, it was really good. But to do that, people have to be patient. And as Gab was saying, it's like, is she really going to do it? And I'm like, oh, don't worry, I'll get there. It's just a thank you to the company for allowing me to do that.

32:23Katya Laviolette: And so I think you both have mentioned this co-created plan that you created, you know, together, but also with your CEO. What was on this plan? Like, obviously, you know, there were things like, when are we going to communicate this out? Like you just walked us through, but what are some of the other items that were included on this plan? People leaders want to hire the best talent, regardless of citizenship or where that person is from. But when you're hiring across the globe, finding the right person is only half the battle. It's everything that comes after that can get really complicated. Can we hire this person?

32:54Katya Laviolette: Which visa path makes the most sense? How long is this going to take? And who's going to be chasing updates along the way? That's where Manifest Law comes in. Manifest is an AI native immigration law firm built for companies that want to hire the best people regardless of citizenship. Companies like Resolve.ai, Novo, and LatchBio use Manifest to get hires onboarded and stay on top of compliance as they grow. For HR and global mobility teams, that means real-time case tracking, same-day candidate evaluations, fast filings, and a five-hour average response time. And there's real legal depth behind it too, including top-tier attorneys and advisors like the current president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association and former USCIS leaders.

33:42Katya Laviolette: So instead of immigration becoming another thing your team has to constantly follow up on, you get more visibility, faster answers, and fewer surprises. If you want to schedule a free consultation with Manifest, just click the link in the show notes. Well, it's a 20-page Google Doc with about six or seven Excel sheets tied to it and seven... But I guess you mean the specifics of... So we had separated it out by quarter, by chunk. the key initiative, like both the people to loop in the specific, the specific meetings, the specific ownership. And so we had like quarterly milestones where we would go through a variety of relationships to transfer over content to get looped into.

34:27Katya Laviolette: But what, and we covered a lot through that, but I will say, I think the other recommendation, I don't know that everybody wants to do that or has the luxury, but these last like six weeks have been also, So we didn't necessarily have that documented in our tracker. But this relationship, the fact that we text constantly and that we message each other has been also a huge part of the transition. Because that's when all of the, and I think it's a critical part that people don't map out. So it's the moment where Katya was like, on you. And then I have to figure out all the things I don't know. All the things that I don't know that I might not have access to.

35:05Katya Laviolette: And it's worked well for us to be able to then be like, okay, let's connect quickly. this is happening. This is happening. What do you have? Perfect. Let me pick it up. I'm going to run with it now. And so there was one undocumented that we could probably do a postmortem and document, but quarter in there.

35:19Gabrielle Caron: That's true. And I think that we are very much this last phase. What I've learned is to be very intentional in my language. Like, like I'm very much, I gave some feedback on the 2027 people plan that the, you know, Gab and team have prepared and I am in my advisory role. So I said, I've given some comments, everyone, you can take them or leave them, whatever you want to do. And so as as myself to be intentional in making that shift to succession, people need to see that. Otherwise, they will not they will not understand who to follow. And even, you know, last week, we had a file or a dossier that we're working on a couple of things that I'm keeping as gab, assume the role and so forth.

35:59Gabrielle Caron: and there's just some longer term or long tail files that I'm helping to transition over. And I said to another individual, I said, okay, I need to be clear. Do you want me to lead this? Do you want me to advise on it? Like, let's be clear so everyone knows their roles. And so you have to be very, you have to just really be very intentional, even in this third phase that Gav has described.

36:22Katya Laviolette: And so, Katia, you seem to have like navigated this amazingly, like, I feel like I would need therapy and I would need like my, my wife would get tired of me talking about this. Like, did you, what sort of like tools and what support did you, did you get? And did you need any support? I'm just curious. Like these just seem like very heavy things, like just talking about these final files, like there's a lot of complexity in the work we do. and I just feel like it's easy to feel like I still need to be involved. And one of the things that I really admire about this story, Katia, is you like proactively got yourself out of the way.

37:09Katya Laviolette: You unblocked Gab and the rest of the team, quite honestly, because in my view, so long as you have one foot in the past and one foot in the future, the organization, or at least the team, is trapped. And so I really commend you. and I'm just curious, like, was it just time? And so because it was time, like it just happened, you know, fairly easily or did you need your own support and team to help you get through it?

37:35Gabrielle Caron: Yeah, I think there's a few elements there. First off, I'm a pretty intentional person. So as I mentioned before, I'm a planner. And so I always say to people, it's better to control your destiny. So if you can control your destiny, that is super helpful. And I mean, working in the HR profession, we see a lot of exits, some that go well, some that don't go well. And I think retirement is retiring from a full-time job after, you know, three decades should be celebrated. And people don't always celebrate that. And so I personally, my community outside of work, most of my friends are retired. So I'm lucky because I've learned from them.

38:12Gabrielle Caron: My husband is a few years older as well. And so I get to learn how they've gone through it so I can actually figure out what's best for me. So that's the first thing. The second thing is I'm a pretty, pretty self-aware person. And I decided early on that I would hire a retirement coach. Yes, there are coaches out there who specialize in retirement because you need to really start to shift your mindset about, you know, what is your next purpose in life? And that's actually where I started to craft this idea that, yeah, I think like I want to do my board and advisory work, which is like the sum of all my operating experience.

38:44Gabrielle Caron: And I want to have more space on the personal side. And so that didn't take like 30 days to do. That was a several month process. And then it comes down to having someone like Gab and the team, the team as well, the immediate team, actually, they know me well. So I haven't worked with them for like six months. So they know me inside out. And so they kind of course corrected me sometimes where it's like, are you in this or are you out of this? And so they actually helped to kind of keep us not keep us honest, but keep us correct in terms of our roles and how I was transitioning. And so, yeah, it's not a, it's not easy.

39:22Like, I mean, I keep kind of thinking, okay, well, like, is it, am I going to regret it and so forth? But I don't because I think it's like a really good, it's a really good way of moving to another phase.

39:34Gabrielle Caron: I will be personal around this, you know, as you age, and as a woman who's aging, and you see certain things happen in your life with your friends or your family and so forth, you think about what are those next phases you have later in your life? And how do you want to enjoy them? Well, knock on wood, you have your, your health and so on and so forth. And so all that is a element of deciding what you want to do. And I would encourage people who are thinking about that next step, even thinking about like going from full time work into fractional work. Like you just don't think about these things overnight.

40:11Gabrielle Caron: You should think through them, talk to people, build a community of trust around you. I think it's very, very important. So short story, Stephen. Short answer to your story is I had family and friends and a retirement coach, a great team and a great company who allowed me to do it. And I had Gab, who is the great candidate. So all those mixed together, it's a great story to tell.

40:41Katya Laviolette: Well, guys, I told you this is going to happen. I don't think we've asked one question from the actual outline, which is a sign of a really good episode. but we've got about 20 minutes, 20, 25 minutes left. What do we need to cover? Like when it comes to succession planning and this process that you've gone through over the last year and a half, two years, yeah, what do people need to know? Like, is there anything we haven't talked about that you think we should? Take that gap. That's a good question. I'm trying to think. So I think there's, there's planning it out from a documentation standpoint, like we did, making sure that you're mapping out the right talent.

41:17Katya Laviolette: A few other things that we did along the way. We also mapped out like, what are my skills? Where do I potentially, I'm going to use the term fall short, but maybe where I've been less exposed or whatnot. So we also mapped out together, what are the areas that I want to further develop, whether it's through networks or courses or things like that. So there's some preparation to be done on that front. Because we gave the team a bit of a heads up, the team had the chance to evolve as well, right? People had the chance to decide whether they were in it, whether this was for them or not necessarily about me, but potentially where the company was going and what was happening.

41:51Katya Laviolette: And so we also really, as part of this transition, we projected a little bit, where is the company going? What does the company need right now? So it also allowed us to take stock of like the function itself and where it stands at the moment. And so the combination of my skills where I didn't necessarily have expertise, the combination of what the function had today, but didn't necessarily have that we wanted to develop for the future, those pieces of assessment allowed us to really build a better or a more complete future looking roadmap to then round out the team because as part of this I mean we've spoken about our two perspectives but that has an impact on the rest of the function and you never know how people are going to react to that kind of news and so we that also gave us the time to see okay well where are the pieces aligning knowing where we want to go what are the skills that we do have and where do we fall where do we potentially have gaps and so I think there's like the planning of the work but You have to bring others along to be able to see where the rest of that falls out, falls out.

42:45Katya Laviolette: Because going through some transitions like that, having a senior leader like Katia, who's well known, well respected for a company leave after that many years. And then maybe you've got somebody you bring somebody else great in. But then there's that transition continues to be felt for usually for months after the fact. Right. Because other people might make different decisions. The roadmap might completely change. So the fact that we did all of those exercises as part of this succession planning allowed us to have it feel more like one continued transition instead of like a series of changes and transitions.

43:16Katya Laviolette: And companies look to the HR function often for a source of stability, for a source of calmness and direction. It's been a continued interesting journey that moves quickly at 1Password. And so having that stability through those times is even more so critical in a fast growth environment like ours.

43:33Gabrielle Caron: And I would add two other things to that is also on part of that is not just the team, but my peers, my peers are the executive leadership team. So ensuring that Gab is exposed to build relationships with those individuals that I, you know, had lived day in day out on work with. And so that piece is really important. And then also in this kind of planning that we did, over time, we brought the team in, so they're, they're more bought in. And, you know, I have to say, like of all the functions in 1Password, I think the HR function is one of the most stable. And we have very long service employees.

44:09Gabrielle Caron: We have very good engagement results and so on and so forth. So we're very proud of the team we've built. And we're trying to do, we tried to do it. So it was planned well. And when we were ready to go, it's very open, very transparent. And that's what people see. And I think that that's that reflects that reflects the values of how how we operate in the people function at 1Password in terms of, you know, putting people first, keeping it simple and leading with honesty. I think those are three values that are our corporate values. And we demonstrated them in this situation.

44:47Katya Laviolette: We were planning this. You had asked one of the questions that we had covered in our outline or was like, is there a good time for this? Like, is there, and I think the reality is that we, Kaze and I, often look back, but like one of the mandates that I took on is the, is our co-DRI of our internal AI transformation. That's like the future of HR and the world of AI is becoming such a different role. And so I'm not saying that every senior HR leader should be transitioning right now, but most companies have a pivotal moment for us being a company that's securing agents, that's fully leaning into the AI transformation.

45:23Katya Laviolette: There's no world we cannot also be leading with that on the forefront in HR. And so it was a critical moment for us. And it wasn't the leading decision maker, but at the same time, it helped bring the rest of the story together. It helped make sense of everything. It helped confirm a lot of the decisions that we were making because I naturally had become an important player in the company on that transformation. And so that positioned me well also with the rest of our peers. And so I think I would encourage every company to think about everybody's going through that the AI transformation, but sometimes they could be other thing.

45:55Katya Laviolette: It could be changing in the DNA of the product. It could be going from remote to in office. It could be like there's a variety of things that you could be going through that could help also give more meaning to these successions, right? so that you help align the rest of the company at a transitional point in any case.

46:13Gabrielle Caron: I believe. Go ahead, Katya. I was just going to add the other element that I also was thinking about when Gab was speaking was, you know, I've seen a lot of succession scenarios where people will go to market and they'll say, okay, I'm going to hire this VP who's going to be my second in command because I want them to be my bench and I want to retire. And a year later, the person hasn't done anything. They haven't in the sense of the person hiring, the hiring manager has not indicated that they're going to retire. And like, I've seen those scenarios play out several times, which is disappointing for the person they hired.

46:52Gabrielle Caron: And also the other person's not ready. And so in a scenario like this, because we planned it, because we went in a step approach, you know, at the end of the day, it was like, well, I've made my call, like, I'm going full force, I'm not going backwards, because, you know, So Gab is in the role. We've announced it. We're not going backwards. And so that also keeps myself accountable because I've seen quite a few scenarios where you go to search and everyone's looking for their bench, but the person says this is their runway and it's not their runway in the end. So people who really want to think about kind of their next phase and a transition, they need to be very thoughtful, not just about themselves, but about the company they're operating in and who they're bringing on as succession and what commitments they're making.

47:37Katya Laviolette: Something, Gab, you said earlier, just around the world we're living in, the speed at which technology and change is happening. And, you know, that, you know, there may be, I don't know if you said this, or I thought it as you were talking, but there may be more change, you know, in HR leadership positions. And Daniel and I, you know, when you're in the business of talking to CHROs and chief people officers, you see trends. You see when things are happening and things have definitely been happening. And I think things will continue to change will continue to happen as well. I just, and we, you know, I, Katya, Daniel, and I have been on panels talking about what the future is going to look like and how profound the change is going to be.

48:30Katya Laviolette: And that is also out of the bottle and I don't think is ever going to go back. And so as we, having just gone through this experience together and thinking about the future, what's one piece of advice, and this is to both of you, one piece of advice for those that are wondering, like, huh, is it time for me? Or maybe I am ready for the next chapter. Or the other way, from the other perspective, like, I really feel I need to shoot my shot. Like, what advice do you have to give to the community just given, you know, if our suspicions are right and there is going to be more change and business is going to be profoundly impacted?

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50:15Gabrielle Caron: Yeah, I can go from my perspective from kind of an outgoing CHRO into board work and so forth. Like this doesn't happen overnight. I think as a C-suite executive, people should be very thoughtful in planning kind of their phased career. I am in the latter phase of my career. So I've thought heavily about like, what do I want it to be? How do I want to construct it after so many years operating? And it doesn't happen overnight. I talk to people, I see examples, and then I built something for myself. And so I think anyone looking at that is intentionally think about it over time. Like my journey to actually my last, this kind of last phase of my career, it started 10 years ago when I started to do boards because I knew that eventually all my operating experience would want to, I would want to kind of work on that from a board perspective, governance perspective, and advisory perspective with CEOs and so forth.

51:15Gabrielle Caron: And so that doesn't just happen. You need to plan and think about, are you the right person for it? So in short, it's about being very thoughtful and experimenting along the way and crafting and building your next phase.

51:31Katya Laviolette: And as the incoming, I would say, don't assume that the job is only what you see. So I think with everything happening and with the AI transformations at the moment and everything, that's, that's, yes, that's what a lot of what we're talking about, because that's the unknown. That's the piece we're all trying to figure out. But coming into the role, and that was a piece I was already heavily leaning into. But coming into the role, there is still a need for all the traditional, maybe done in a less traditional way, but still the traditional HR. There are still a lot of employee relations situation.

51:59Katya Laviolette: There's still a lot of hiring to be done. There's still a lot of other transitions, reorganizations, systems like there's still all that work still exists. It's just everybody's talking about the other stuff. So that's the first. It's like easy to judge and be like, I'm a perfect candidate because I know all about AI right now. But hold the phone. There's other pieces to figure out. And you got to figure it out. You got to be you got to lean into it and be prepared to spend time on it, to be vulnerable, vulnerable, but also then be very affirmative. you know because when you're in seat you've got to be the one making the confident decisions and so that's the first is that be curious ask more questions and don't assume that you've got it all figured out just because we're observing and we're hearing people talk about the change of it because in a way you have to think about who the audience is it's normal that Katya might have been in the last little while talking more about the AI transformation because the rest she had it figured out the rest for her was the usual stuff and she had been through her career talking it's like talking about it so I would say for candidates coming into these roles are starting to aspire to these like cbo roles it's not just what everybody's saying there's still the real work there's still all of the other work to be done and this whole other piece of it so one just be a little bit realistic in people's expectations but the and then the second is while you like be patient these things will work out there will be transitions happening in any case in the market and so use that time to build out your skills be curious on ai be curious on how the roles are evolving how the systems are evolving be curious in what you might not know because it's not because you're leaning into and you're doing a phenomenal job on the AI front, that suddenly you're the perfect CPO, right?

53:31Katya Laviolette: You still have to learn, like develop the other skills, the empathy, the vision, the strategic vision, and, and all of the other, like the areas of expertise that I just mentioned. So that's the other piece. I feel, I find that what's been happening in the conversation has been really helpful because it's bringing along the, the profession is changing and it is evolving, but some of the foundation of it is still true today. And, and hopefully we, I believe we all want to believe and we all believe humans still have a role in play and therefore all the other sides of the of the hr function still have a place in these roles and so don't underestimate that right don't just get too caught up in the what everybody's talking about because it's an important

54:10Gabrielle Caron: piece but it's not the only one yes and i would really emphasize that i'm so i'm really glad you said that because i remember going down this journey and i just i was talking to someone just today on the executive search front about a chro they're looking for for a global company and so forth and i was like you know to be a really good chro these days or cpo whatever we want to call it there's like a tactical operational side and there's a strategic side and you got to dig deep and people who are kind of surface level i just don't think that's going to certainly work in a high high growth scale environment so it's really important even if people don't have all the all the little areas of expertise that they go deep and they learn it and they surround themselves with specialists because it is a very all-encompassing function.

54:57Gabrielle Caron: And it's a bit of like the iceberg analogy. I don't think a lot of people on the outside really understand what the craft entails. And it's very large.

55:08Katya Laviolette: And so, Gab, I think you were referring, or you talked about your relationship with Katya in three phases. So phase one, that was like the traditional, you know, you're my boss type of relationship. Like obviously, you know, you had a good working relationship, but the guard may have been up a little bit for both of you. And then there's phase two, which was the transition. And I think you guys said it was about a year, year and a half. And now we've entered into phase three. So you're officially the chief people officer. Katya has entered into this advisory role. What does phase three look like?

55:45Katya Laviolette: What does the next year or two look like? Or do you even have a timeline in mind? Tell me more about what that looks like.

55:52Gabrielle Caron: For myself, 1Password, our phase, like the next three months, we have very defined files that I can help transition and hand over to Gab. And then the first three months of 2027, I just continue on providing any context, any coaching, any special things. Like now Gab is like, hey, can you help me with this? Or can you go help the team with this? And so on and so forth in an advisory capacity, not an operating capacity. So that was kind of the whole plan that we mapped out. And we're like, hmm, I wonder how all this is all going to come together. But it's coming together well once you're in the operation and you see it.

56:25Gabrielle Caron: And as long as I make sure that I'm very clear, clearly not operating, and I'm clearly assisting from a context perspective where needed. and also there's been a couple of things where I'm like I'm gonna do I'm gonna help you all with this now but this is not this needs to transfer so it's like you and everyone is very open about that so I that's how I see the next uh the next three and then the the last three months or I guess two now I would very much align but that's phase three and then we'll have phase four

56:59Katya Laviolette: phase four we'll be going skiing and just dining together yes exactly but phase three is still very much of that of the for now for probably another month or two very specific files that can because there's we still have a few team members ramping up and so advising and supporting on very specific files and and more of leaning in with that coaching and and support on the big picture it's very helpful for me because she knows the environment she understands all the pieces so I'm able to have a very safe space where I can talk about how I want to tackle certain things and and sometimes you know if you talk to a coach about certain things like that like oh I'm looking to tackle this i'm looking to influence this well if you don't really know the characters you're dealing with if you don't know the culture of the company they can give you some advice but at the end of the day depending on the nature of those relationships those humans in the context that advice could actually only be infant very unhelpful actually if you think about it or just like a bit helpful whereas in this context it's like extremely helpful right because it's very realistic.

57:59Katya Laviolette: And so probably a few more months of that for sure. And so, Gab, the transitions happen. You're in the role and you're on the modern people leader. We've interviewed a who's who of chief people officers and CHROs. I feel like we would be remiss not to ask you a pointed question as the head HR person. When you look at the next Similar question, but like business and people related, like what excites, if you look at your backlog of projects that you have going on or things, initiatives you know you're focusing on or rocks, whatever you call those most important things, you know, can you share with us, you know, looking forward now, maybe one or two of the things that you have going on or coming very soon that you can share with us that, you know, really excites you, you know, when you're going to bed at night you're like just having trouble falling asleep like what are those things i would say two things the first is probably like everybody just really i think we've done a ton of great i'm proud of the work that we've done actually at one password in terms of the ai transformation we've really we you know we're at 98 percent adoption in our ai tools a year and a bit ago we would would have really struggled to imagine that we would be on that front we had a lot of because we're a security company we had a lot of skepticals and things like that and so i think that speaks to the quality of our product because they believe that you can have some security in AI products, but also to how we've been supporting our teams.

59:33Katya Laviolette: And so I'm really excited about continuing to transform the workforce in a way that really keeps humans at the forefront doing the work that's most meaningful for them. That like really, really energizes me. But then the other piece that really energizes me is some of what I've uncovered in the transition with Katya and that unpacking now, and that's very specific to 1Password, like fast growing company like ours will always be dealing with so much and I am a very trans while I'm guarded sometimes on the personal front I'm a very transparent business leaders I love bringing people along on the journey I love storytelling to help people understand how it fits in the bigger picture why is there meaning and so I think that's incredibly needed as we continue to grow out one password and that really excites me to be in a seat in a position where people will turn to me to want to hear that from me right and I've always knocked on a lot of doors and used all the opportunities to tell people about that But now being in seat, people are coming to me and they're like, I don't know how I feel about this change.

1:00:26Katya Laviolette: How are you perceiving it? I'm like, well, let me tell you. And so having being in a position to be able to play into that strength is also very exciting. So those are probably the two fronts. Hattie, any final thoughts before we go to one word or phrase close?

1:00:41Gabrielle Caron: Oh, I'm just like really thanking you all for allowing us to talk about this subject. And I hope, I think that this is like, we're very privileged what we have here. We know that it's not something that you would see every day. There's a long lead time. I think you can still do this entire process in a six month process as well. Like it doesn't have to be a year. They did that because that's kind of what I wanted to do from my offboarding perspective. But I think that there's lots of really good concrete learnings, I'm hoping, for the HR community.

1:01:14Katya Laviolette: I know that we're privileged, but again, just to unpack, hoping nobody misunderstands anything that we've portrayed here. Throughout this whole transition, Katya and I played, continued to play 100, if not 120 % of our roles, right? So all of this transition were things that we were doing and planning on the side. So I think maybe if I were a company or on a board or whatnot, I wouldn't underestimate this doesn't mean freeing up a random additional executive VP level role. Right. It doesn't mean adding capacity. This means having individuals that are very motivated, that will go the extra mile, that want what's right for the company and that will bring it together.

1:01:50Katya Laviolette: so we're very fortunate but I do I do humbly think we've created part of that fortune and some of it is in our DNA it's not like one password was like yeah sure we'll give you extra seats and you'll have all these extra people so you can just do this right and that's not at all how it went down

1:02:05Gabrielle Caron: so yes that's a very that's a very fair point privilege that's a very fair point we didn't put our feet up. Good point.

1:02:15Katya Laviolette: Well, Katya, Gab, this was so much fun. I can feel like the love on this episode that you guys truly care about each other that comes through. And so thank you so much for sharing the story. The way that we wrap up every episode is with something called one word or phrase close. And so we all go around and respond with a word or a few just to, you know, share how you're feeling as we as we end the episode and gab i'll pick on you to go first this just makes me emotional i'm just like i'm thankful and i think it's i've said to kate this year whatever comes next will be probably the highlight of a more than a career frankly like a highlight in a of my life so thankful and emotional i tell you yeah just like yeah like just really proud of like

1:03:03Gabrielle Caron: Like I said, I think on the first MPL podcast we did, you asked kind of like rapid fire questions. I said, you know, it's really cool. It's like when someone comes back to me like seven years down the road and they're like, hey, you took this call and you helped me with this. And I don't remember. So you just like gab didn't remember the December 22nd date. I have like fuzzy memories. It's the age and it all comes full circle. So this is really cool. It's like time for me to give back and do something in a different way. And I always talk about that. And I've done that along the way in like little snippets here.

1:03:32Gabrielle Caron: but this one is a big one for me and I'm just really proud of it.

1:03:35Katya Laviolette: I'll say love. I mean, I get like, again, like I can tell that so much thought was put into this process and yeah, I'm excited for both of you guys. Like Katia, you've given Gab a potentially life changing opportunity and, and Katia, now you're, you're, you know, you have whatever's ahead of you is ahead of you. And that's really exciting. I'm, I'm excited for this portfolio career.

1:04:00Gabrielle Caron: Yes, it's exciting. We'll have to have you back. Yeah, I found that whole concept along my journey of like, okay, what's this next phase going to be? And the HR community is phenomenal. And they were like, well, you're building a portfolio career. I'm like, oh, I like that term. Very good.

1:04:16Katya Laviolette: What do you got, Stephen? It sounds super exciting. I'm going to go with real succession because I think what we talked about today was next level. I think the listeners are going to get a ton out of this. And, you know, we're it's this is our dream and our vision was to be able to give back to the community, help people wherever they're at and and also showcase like amazing leaders doing amazing work. And, you know, Gab, you summed it up like not not ever not anyone can do what y 'all have done. It's because of, you know, everything we've talked about and you have the passion and desire and, you know, feeling of responsibility to do what's best for for the company.

1:05:00Katya Laviolette: But that that at the individual level. And so it's been such a beautiful conversation today. Thank you so much for sharing all this with us.

1:05:11Gabrielle Caron: For having us.

1:05:12Katya Laviolette: Bye, guys. Thank you.

1:05:15Gabrielle Caron: Take care.

1:05:16Katya Laviolette: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Modern People Leader. We really, really appreciate it. And if you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five-star rating. It would mean the world to us. And connect with us on LinkedIn. We want to know what you think about the show. And you can find links to both of our profiles in the show notes. Thanks again for listening and see you on the next episode. you