329 - Why Match is tripling down on Gen Z talent: D.V. Williams (Chief People Officer, Match Group)

0:00D.V. Williams: The internship program, we saw 20 ,000 applicants for 26 roles. What? Oh my God. For 26 roles. And that is because a lot of companies are moving away from the earlier career because, look, resources are tight. And so they're like, look, I need someone who's already ready-made, who's done this same job somewhere else. And we're like, hey, you know what? But the long play, the more strategic and sustainable play, is to develop them and have them help develop us into the organization of the future. So if we take the rotational program, the rotational program is through different functions, not within your function in different jobs.

0:42D.V. Williams: It's spend some time in products, spend some time in strategy, spend some time in analytics. So as you're growing your career, you understand what their pain points are. They should understand yours and you'll get to a great solution faster. One thing I'll say about this whole Gen Z conversation, I am doubling and tripling down on Gen Z. But there is a tremendous amount of value in all of the other generations. And being able to leverage that along with Gen Z, you're going to be awesome. Your company is going to be amazing. That's the magic. That's where the magic is. You're listening to the Modern People Leader Podcast, where we go behind the scenes with today's top HR leaders and work experts.

1:24We talk to them about how they've gotten to where they're at, what they do every day, and what they see coming next for the future of work. Hope you enjoy.

1:36DV, welcome to the pod. I think you're one of the first Daniels that we've had on the pod. I know you don't go by Daniel and it's DV now, but But Steven, can you think of any other Daniels that we've interviewed? I can't, honestly. Maybe, you know, I'll do a quick search over here. But if we have, it's like one. But I don't think we have. Let me check our page here.

2:01D.V. Williams: Sounds like I have the unique distinction of being named after someone else was already on the pod. Maybe the other Daniels didn't want to join for that reason. They're like, there's already too many Daniels. Too much pressure. Oh, no, we've got Daniel Bay. There's one. Oh, and he goes by D-Bay, which is why I hadn't even connected that. So I guess I need to go by something other than Daniel. Yeah, we got to get to it. Well, growing up, and Daniel, hopefully I'm not upsetting Daniel too much by this, but when he was a kid, we called him Danny. He was forever known as Danny until obviously he became a man.

2:38It was like, look, guys, you don't have to call me my little kid nickname anymore. You call me Daniel. I actually like Danny now. I think I made the name change or the rebrand between third and fourth grade. And it's because I was switching schools. And so in my third grade mind, I was like, I have to have a more serious name when I start school. And so I changed from Danny to Daniel. But as I've gotten older, I kind of miss the days that I went by Danny. A lot of people call me D. I get that pretty often. But yeah.

3:14D.V. Williams: Danny is what we call my sister, whose name is Danielle. Okay. A lot of imagination in my family. I like it. I like it. Well, DV, we start every episode with something that we call good news stories. We all go around and share something either personal or work related. Just any piece of good news that you have in your world. And we like for our guests to go first. Oh, good news story. We've been very focused on culture and engagement for our business. And a good news story I have is our Tinder business, which had some of the lowest engagement at the organization, has grown dramatically in the past six months.

3:56D.V. Williams: And it's authentic and the employees are feeling the vibe. And it's really great to see like hardworking people excited about the work that they're doing. So that's my good news. We're going to have to come back to that later. But yeah, that's excellent news. Steven, you want to go next? Yeah, you know, apologies for our recurring listeners. That's a lot of you. But I just can't get out of my mind. It was part of my good news earlier, the pod we just recorded. And that's what we close on our house tomorrow. It's just such a big... I feel like it's been a totally unexpected, Divi. Like my, in fact, my wife and I know we're moving to Seattle in four years.

4:39And I'm like, why are we buying? What? Like, but mama gets what mama wants. Should we have an eight month old and two teenage girls? And it's just like super tight in our current place. So the good news is like life in space should start opening up in a big way in the next few weeks. although it's going to be hellacious just like between now and then. But we got to love it.

5:06D.V. Williams: Congratulations. Thank you. That is awesome. I'm going to stick with the new house theme. So we moved into our new house August 7th and we found some renters for our old house and they move in on the 7th or 8th, I guess. Yeah, Tuesday next week. and the last 20-ish days have been not so fun. We've had to paint parts of the old house. We've had to get a deep clean. We've had to move things out of the attic. We've just all of these things that you need to do in preparation for renting out your house. And the list was like, I mean, I'm not over-exaggerating, probably like 40 or 50 items deep and we're down to like the last two or three.

5:53and so this has been like a big not like tension point but like it's something that we've been stressed about in our household and so to have it like behind us here in a few days is really

6:05D.V. Williams: exciting that's awesome yeah well you can throw away a punch list it you feel really good about it you feel really good about it i yeah yeah yeah well dv tell us tell us the story i think what What stood out to me in the intake call was like the quick rise to the CPO role. I think you're probably closer to my age than Stephen's. We like to joke. Stephen, I see the big guy. Stephen's the one who makes these jokes all the time, not me. So it's okay. I do. Yeah. But yeah, let's, I would love to hear the story. How much compensation risk do you think is hiding in your spreadsheets right now? For a lot of people teams, comp has gotten way more complex than the system supporting it.

6:49You got merit cycles, bonuses, incentive plans, approvals, benchmarking, pay equity, transparency requirements. And somehow, a lot of it is still being managed through Excel, manual uploads, or HRIS modules that weren't really built for this level of complexity. And you know, that's all fine and dandy until there are three versions of the same comp file, or one person becomes the single source of truth, or leadership asks why a pay decision was made, and the answer is harder and harder to explain. That's where BCom comes in. BCom is a purpose-built compensation platform for organizations managing complex pay programs.

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8:08D.V. Williams: Yeah, I started at a company called Whirlpool Corporation when I was fresh out of grad school. And from an HR perspective, I had always known I wanted to do HR, separate story. But I got in that rotation program and it was like very structured, very distinct. you rotate over a period of time into one of these three roles and then you come out on the other side and then you get, let's call it a permanent role. And they gave me the goals for the first role. And I went to the hiring manager and said, hey, if I achieve these goals before the timeline, can I move on to the next role? And they were like, well, we're not necessarily structured for that, but let's give it some thought.

8:48D.V. Williams: And so I made it my business to knock like all of the priorities out of the park and did it in nine months instead of a year and a half. And I, you know, I said, okay, what do I do next? You know? And that then bought me my next assignment, which wasn't in the program. It was an actual full-time role. And so that kind of started with, hey, let it be less about time and role and more about outcomes and what you accomplish achieving the goals. And so that's kind of where that mindset started with me coming into that rotational program, knowing that, yes, I wanted the foundation, but I also wanted to, you know, be curious and ask lots of questions and do stuff that's off the beaten path.

9:33D.V. Williams: And fortunately, that was a great breeding ground for it. And I started with that from that mentality. I've taken that throughout my career. I'm like, hey, what are we ultimately looking to accomplish? I want to exceed that. And if I do exceed that, what's the next opportunity? Not necessarily up, not necessarily more, but different. How do I grow? I love that. And Daniel and I love us a good rotational program. I don't know any of your colleagues from Whirlpool, but I would bet that there are some badasses that came out of that program, some of your peers, the program participants, the mentors, all of it.

10:12It's just such a beautiful way to start a career. And the next question is, I feel kind of silly because like, who doesn't know, who hasn't heard of Match? But for the lost souls or the old souls like me that resort to hunting in the wild, like, how do you explain what Match does to a stranger? Oh my God.

10:36D.V. Williams: I am so lame because I use the very, like, what is our mission statement? And it's like making meaningful connections. I always start with meaningful connections because the zeitgeist of dating is so broad that it's not just people that are looking ultimately for marriage. Some people are looking for partnerships. Some people are looking for cool people to hang out with or find their friends. And so that's what I mean by meaningful connection. And that's how I explain it to folks. I said it can go from mild to wild. It's all about what you're looking for and how you're presenting yourself and what you want to take from it.

11:13D.V. Williams: So that's how I talk about the work. And then I immediately go into the brands. Because even if you are not on the apps, the brands themselves stand alone. Tinder, Hinge, BLK, so on. OKCupid. And folks know those brands. And so that's how I kind of introduce it. When I think about my friend group and all of the couples who are now married or have been together for a while, I want to say that like half of them started with either a Tinder date or a hinge date. And that turned into like, you know, a 12 hour hang. And then like they've been inseparable since. And so, yeah, if you haven't heard of some of these brands and you have been living under a rock.

11:58but like I mean what what brands to have in your portfolio yeah it's an amazing group even you know

12:05D.V. Williams: I just had a neighbor of mine uh who had been married in the past and she was just looking for companionship somebody to travel with she's very active she likes to climb mountains in her 60s and all the things and I put her on match.com and she went from I'm looking for companionship to I was at their wedding three months ago. What? Yeah. That's incredible. And I bet you get so many stories like that. Plums of them. And honestly, it's what, you know, make you have pride in a work that we do to understand that it's for a higher calling than just, you know, going to earn a paycheck. Like you're actually impacting society and impacting individual lives.

12:47Agreed. And so I want to talk about this bet on Gen Z that Match is making. We've been having this conversation about Gen Z for probably the last two or three years. and I feel like with the rise of AI and the flattening of orgs, we hear a lot of people leaders talk about how they don't really have an early career talent strategy. To be fair, there are some CPOs that are betting on it, but for the most part, it feels like we've gone away from betting on this early talent. And I think back to this panel that I did a few months back with the CPOs of Zapier, Yelp, and one other company. I mean, those are like two pretty big names.

13:37When I asked them what their early career strategy was, they didn't have one. They said that it wasn't a priority. And so I want to start with the question of, why do you think we should be betting on this, on Gen Z and doubling down? And why is that something that y 'all are doing?

13:57D.V. Williams: Yeah, so this is where your company business strategy and your people strategy should align. If you look at our organization and you look at those who are registering for our product, the Gen Z population is becoming our fastest growing population on our apps. And if you have a strategy that focuses on building product for the consumer, then you should definitely have AI native people in your organization. And so, you know, you can tell when a product is not built by the people that it is built for. And a lot of our early career strategy is to ensure that that doesn't happen, that our product reflects our growing consumer base and that people feel heard and seen in our product.

14:44D.V. Williams: If you look back to six years ago, pre-pandemic, a lot has changed. And so because of that, dating norms have changed, how people meet each other have changed, and your product should reflect that to meet the consumer where they are. If you still have that same product base or you still have people who are not thinking beyond what has worked in the past, then I think you'll be left behind. You'll lose that product market fit. I love that. I love that. And so this is a perfect place to start. I'm just going to lean in to the persona I've taken on already. And who's dating? Yeah, I've been I'm out of the game.

15:22Like who is actually dating these days? Because it's a weird thing where like my daughters are entering teenage years and like they're not super fussed. Like I there and maybe that's just like happening way later. Like I just remember being really relationship focused and that was a priority for me. And but like whether boys or girls like the the from what I see that, you know, it's not there. I could be totally wrong. So I'm like just curious, like what is the data? And obviously you don't go that that young. like i'm you know yes but like tell us tell us about like what the what the the demographics of

16:06D.V. Williams: dating look like today yeah so it is skewing uh well first of all every demographic group is still dating at varying levels which is why we have a match.com for those who are 50 plus but the the larger pool who are coming into the into the atmosphere are those who are in the gen z range and how they date looks different. This is why we're leaning into IRL events. You'll look at Tinder and their IRL strategy and moving more into events. From that perspective, you'll see double date as a feature on our Tinder app as well, which is wildly popular because people are hanging out and they're building friendships and not walking into these connections as dating.

16:51D.V. Williams: And so the data tells us that you have to be flexible on even how you define it. Because just like you have 30-year-olds where it's okay to have four or five roommates, you also have 20-year-olds or 22-year-olds who are saying, hey, they're going to marry their best friend because they probably met them as a friend first before they actually entered into dating. I feel like this is the perfect segue into how Gen Z is thinking about work. You've already mentioned how they view dating differently. I imagine the way that they view work is a little bit different. And because, well, let's just start there.

17:29Like, what are some of the observations and how they view work differently?

17:33D.V. Williams: Absolutely. So the really cool thing about working at a company like Match in our specific category is a lot of people come to us because they have a passion around what we do in general. And so how they're thinking about work is a mutual agreement of, I will bring my all and put all of my talents into this work, but I need to be able to see what good it's doing for the organization, for the team that I work on, for overall society. And so it's a mutual agreement for them. A lot of people are moving more toward working or lending their talents to their passions than they are as a tool in order to make income.

18:15D.V. Williams: It's more about do my talents align? Am I happy at work and doing that work? And can I see where it actually has an impact somewhere? And so our strategy, even in how we develop, is ensuring that employees get to see that impact and be closer to the decisions and how decisions are made as opposed to your traditional hierarchical organization. And so let's go back to your good news story. Like the good news you shared was I believe that Tinder, you know, goes from lowest engagement scores to one of the highest, if not the highest, just big increases. Right. And let's start with like where you started.

18:56So how do it sounds like, you know, you have a product that most people are aware of and resonate with and in a mission that I think a lot of people can get behind just like better connecting humans out in the world. how did you get to a place where at one of your flagship brands, one that is like very tied to kind of your talent strategy, I would imagine just get based on, you know, who's using the product, you know, getting that end user, you're aligning your, your UVP and your EVP, I'm guessing is, is something that y 'all look a lot at. So you're doing a lot of the things already. So how did you get to a place where it's like, okay, you know, there are improvements that we need to make here.

19:42And, you know, share with us what you can about, you know, the, some of the goals that you had, like when you realize like, all right, this is, we need to be better here.

19:51D.V. Williams: Yeah. I'll tell you the dynamic shift was our CEO of Match Group also became the CEO of Tinder, our largest brand. And he immediately looked at how we managed that business and decided that we were going to be a product-led organization. It was focused on product and the consumer. And so we went from making decisions that were based on, you know, just call it the best business need. And we were focused on longevity through ensuring that we have the right product market fit. Like that was the first critical shift in that business where we said, okay, moving to product-led organization focused on, you know, maniacally focused on the consumer.

20:34D.V. Williams: Now we need to look at how we're operating internally as a company. And then the decision was made for us to flatten the org. And so we did do the tough job of removing some management layers and getting the doers closer to those who are making the decisions. Now, that's hard work. No one likes to do that type of work, but we're talking about real people and we're talking about their livelihood. what it did though for us as an organization after a period of sadness because we lost some colleagues immediately folks began to recognize the benefit and value in that change because they saw how the things were how work was happening they understood that they now had influence to shift things and they felt agency over outcomes so they felt accountable to those outcomes as well And that began to shift the mentality at our organization as well.

21:32D.V. Williams: So I was very excited about that. And it happened over time. Tell us a little bit more about this flattening, like for span of control for managers, like how big of a difference, how drastic was this change? Yeah. So, you know, we, it's very rare you'll see someone with one direct report. So the average, the average manager has somewhere between five, four or five, oh, excuse me, four and seven direct reports where there were spots where it was like one manager, two reports, and so on. And then we were multi-layered. So there may have been a manager, a senior manager, and a director, and then a VP asking questions and it having to hit all of those levels.

22:12D.V. Williams: Whereas the manager is the one doing the work. And so the manager is now talking to the VP directly and they're having the discussion around not just the execution of the work, they're actually having strategy questions. Now you're putting the decision maker closer to the person who knows the most about what is happening with the data and the analytics of what they're working on. And so it really did, you know, it was a big unlock for us to get those groups of people, the right level of those groups of people together. The other thing that it then brought up was development. So where do you go from that perspective?

22:49D.V. Williams: Most people are like used to seeing progress as moving up. And when you flatten an org, that shifts that dynamic. Big time. And so what I love about what I've heard so far is like we've, and these are all my words, not yours. We talked about how important Gen Z is. Like Gen Z is the largest segment of people dating or potential users, right? That's the market we need to capture. And we also talked about how Gen Z is, you know, wants to see the impact in the work they do. And they want to feel like they have a meaningful career, right? That they're, that this is amounting to something. And boom, with one fell swoop, you know, now I can see flattening of the org.

23:38I can now more directly see the, um, the correlation between the work I do day to day and like progress of the business to our goals and to our mission. And, you know, development is like, I can start to see like, okay, so it may not be vertical. You know, I may not just be like climbing the next rung, but I can see through the work I'm doing and working with other teams, et cetera, that there are some cool opportunities here. Like when you look at, you know, the drastic shift. So I ran an engagement survey company and I always advise clients like there's no silver bullet. There's no one thing here that is just going to like drive the results you're looking for and increase EMPS and reduce, you know, attrition, you know, unwanted attrition that just doesn't exist.

24:28Those are all separate things or maybe two or three or four things that you're going to do to accomplish all of that. And so share with us a couple of the other kind of things that you looked at, the factors that you were looking at when you're like, all right, Okay, we're stabilizing the ship. Now we want to get to that next level of engagement.

24:46D.V. Williams: Yep. So the one thing that we have to change kind of the dynamic on is tenure and title. You know, they're outdated proxies for value, right? Now we have to focus on skill being the real and new currency for us. And so what does that look like as we're attempting to develop people in this new model? One of the things, I'll give you a live example. One of the things is our mentorship program, right? fairly basic. It's a standard program. There's a finite period of time in which you're paired with someone that has a either skill or job or can mentor you through, you know, a set of things that you've outlined where you can sharpen or you and your manager have discussed that you can sharpen.

25:26D.V. Williams: So we said, okay, how does this, as we're thinking about development and we're thinking about this new org, and we're now saying there are less title change opportunities, but the goal is to continue to grow people, how does our mentorship program fit in that? And so we're in the process of introducing a flexible mentorship program that actually doesn't, title is not a factor. So you can be mentored by anyone at the organization that has a skill that you're looking to acquire. The timeline is not finite. It could be a two-week engagement or two-year engagement and it's employee driven. And so now we're focused on that skill acquisition as opposed to focused on, you know, hey, here's the traditional and structured way of doing it.

26:15D.V. Williams: We're getting it into the hands of people faster and it's employee driven. Almost like an internal like tender for skill acquisition. Yes. And it's funny that you use that as the example because we're building it out like a card stack. So you'll be able to swipe through people's profiles to see exactly which skills you're looking for. So how does this all tie back to the idea of talent over tenure? Yeah. Yeah. So it ties back because the value is in the skills that you've acquired and then how you apply them to the ecosystem. Less about are you in the right job in order to add value, but more in that you have the agency to add value to the organization and you can see it.

27:07D.V. Williams: You can see how it grows. You can continue to grow from that perspective. You don't necessarily need a big title to do so. And for those who don't want to necessarily be a manager, because that used to be the thing. It used to be, I have to have a team in order to add value. That no longer is the case. It is, you can add value as a part of a team. You can be an individual contributor. You may not want to do performance reviews, which we know a lot of people who are very talented do not like to do. And so now we're positioning you to focus on the core things that you'd like to do and continue to grow, continue to increase your pay.

27:48D.V. Williams: No one wants to work for free. And so you can do that without having to move to a new title or move to a new grade or band within your organization. What I'm hearing from you just feels, it feels like everything you're sharing is reinforcing this like two year long conversation Daniel and I have been having about how everything's changing. Like the construct of work itself is changing. What it means to be a manager is changing. What it means, you know, how we're going to define, how all the core metrics, the ratios that we're looking at. How we're going to grow employees. Yeah, literally all of it.

28:30What it means to upskill and reskill and how L &D, traditional L &D programs are going to be delivered. like all you know there's so many things that are changing AI is a big part of it and having so I am two weeks maybe three weeks into a new role so I was working at the podcast full-time and I'm now part of a small 11 person now 11 I was nine startup that is an AI music software company And it is fascinating. Part of why I wanted to do this, DV, is because I want to see how a company from the beginning grows in the AI economy. Like, how do we even look at it? And, you know, the story that I tell over and over is that, like, early on, I asked a question about, like, org design, like, oh, how might we grow?

29:24Like an innocent kind of traditional, really HR nerdy kind of question to ask. And our CEO was like, org design? Like, what does that even mean? Like, what are you even talking about, Steve? And I was like, oh, JK. And so I'm just, I'm curious if any of that, like, you know, I think people get so caught up with the AI conversation, like having a headcount conversation that we lose all this, It's like great intel and experimentation that is happening that has all the best merits in place. Like we are actually talking about improving, you know, talent development, improving the experience. And so does that, has AI factored at all into what y 'all are doing?

30:14Because what you're describing is like the perfect environment. Give me the agency to experiment and do my job. don't like get me in this org chart. I don't need a box. I'm at my stage of my career. Like I am loving being an IC. Like it is great. Like I don't need a team to manage. Like don't give me HR. Just kidding. I know that's coming at some point. And so I'm just curious, like, can you let us into like, were these conversations, intentional conversations y 'all were having in parallel to like, we need to improve engagement. We need to like modernize the way we're working. Like, tell us a little bit about that.

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31:47D.V. Williams: Yeah, so a lot of it was happening in parallel, but I got to be really honest with you. Some of it was, okay, as we start to look at the growth of AI, what is our position on it? And then how does it fit into the things that we're doing in parallel? Because, you know, I didn't sit down with a whiteboard and just say, oh, this is how the whole thing will work and let's go off and do it. No, no, no, no. I'm much more realistic than that. Instead, as we thought about AI, we looked at what was happening in the market and we saw the disengagement of people, kind of the people who should be the most users of it at the org, kind of rebel against it because they saw it as a replacement for the work that they were doing.

32:26D.V. Williams: So our strategy was very simple, but different from what you read in the periodicals. It was equip everyone with the tool, set the expectation that these tools should be applied, And the goal, the outcomes of it is not the reduction of headcount, but instead better quality product and you focusing on the things that matter. So that's how we've strategized around AI. We kicked it off with a big AI day at the company where everybody was pencils down and you just freestyled on your project. There was nothing forced. There was no prompts of what you needed to do. There were no outcomes that you had to achieve.

33:07D.V. Williams: and people vibed on it. I mean, they really vibed on it. About 20 % of the companies submitted, we had at the end of the day, we had a kind of a show and tell, voluntary show and tell. What did you come up with, you know, globally? Like what did folks come up with? And, you know, there was some amazing projects. There was 20 % of the organization shared their projects of, hey, this is not done, but this is the path I'm going down. And then seeing people have similar projects because these are challenges in other parts of the business. And now those people collaborating, they now have agency over what we're doing with AI at the company.

33:47D.V. Williams: They don't feel like we're putting it in place so it can take away certain roles. That wasn't our strategy. And so we had to make the employee base feel comfortable in using it and saying, hey, if there's a tool that we don't have that aligns to the type of work that you're doing or something cool that came out, come let us know and we'll figure out a way to fund it. And that's been really helpful for us. It's similar, but a little bit different. We keep, I've seen this story like two or three times in the last couple of weeks. And it's the story of how Ikea redeployed a segment of their employee base to be interior designers.

34:25And so in their case, they actually did like replace like the work that was being done by humans, but they redeployed that talent to build a new service. And that's generated like an additional billion and a half dollars for them or something like that. And so I hope that more people leaders start to have that mindset of either like we're going to redeploy this talent in a way that can be a new revenue generating business line, or we're going to get people excited about this and make them feel comfortable knowing that we're not trying to get rid of them.

35:01D.V. Williams: Yeah, in our case, It's the shipping of product is happening much faster as a result of the application of AI with that team embedded and them figuring out creative ways to remove some of the redundancy that was in the process. So we're getting the market faster. We're getting the consumer the product that they've asked for in a quicker way. And just curious, this is kind of off, you know, this is definitely off script and hopefully I'm not going to derail the conversation, but how are the dating apps evolving? Like, does the future of dating apps look far different than what we're used to? Are these also things that y 'all are trying to work out?

35:42D.V. Williams: Yes, they will. The short answer is yes, they will evolve differently. And no disrespect to any of the subject matter experts in this space. I'm on the human capital side or the people side, but I believe they will need to continue to evolve to where society is going. And you see we're doubling down on IRL in dating apps because people are meeting more in group settings and low pressure settings to ensure that they're getting what they need from that perspective. It's, you know, understanding using AI not to speak on behalf of other people because you should be speaking human to human, but getting insights about yourself so you can best you bring your best self to the dating app so you can find the right match for you.

36:28D.V. Williams: The big example I use that AI is helping do that I tell folks who are on our apps, I'm on our apps, is don't allow your, have your friends do your profile for you. And they're like, well, why? Why would I do that? I'm like, your friends may not know you as well as you know yourself, but they know how you will be presented because they receive that. So they can speak to that person. And then it helps. It helps. So as you think about the apps, as you think about the evolution of them and using technology to help do that, one of the things, one of the products we have is Photo Finder, where we ask for permission to go through your photo roll and suggest pictures to put on your profile.

37:13D.V. Williams: One of the people say, well, why would you want to do that? Well, you're outdoorsy, but you don't mention that at all on your profile. And you're like, well, how do you know I'm outdoorsy? because here's 15 pictures in the past six months of you being by some mountain or a group of trees, right? So that's how AI can help you pull out some of the things that you may not think. I take the person who's all about work and all about their job. They may say, you know, you know, consumer professional and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, yeah, but you like to cook because there's like, or you like to eat because there's like 50 different photos in here of food.

37:51D.V. Williams: So it just helps you be a bit more authentic and show who you are, even if you've kind of, you think you're presenting something different. Love the focus on the human connection and the human side of things. I can't imagine it was, dating was such a hard, baffling process when I was young. And then I got divorced, You know, I got married at 21 and was, you know, with a partner for 15 years. Then I got divorced. And like the world was just like fundamentally a different place. And when I went like two years, three years, didn't date like nothing. Just focus on my daughters, focus on my startup.

38:34That's how Daniel and I met. Daniel worked for me. He was over our demand gen marketing side. And so when I did jump in, it felt like everyone else had like this guide to like how it all worked because they had been using it and it'd been like there's muscle memory or just like intel on what you do. And like what you were describing would be would have been so helpful because I literally got the feedback like, oh, wow, you look a lot better in person than you do in your pictures. And I was like, wait, what? Like, obviously that date didn't go very well. And it was like, well, at least it was an honest representation because I don't know if this is a really honest representation, you know, a two-way honest representation.

39:21But that's neither here nor there. Like, I guess the point I'm trying to make is like there are use cases where I could see, you know, it being even harder now. So like the words and things that I struggle to find, like now anyone can say anything about themselves and they can consider them an expert, consider themselves an expert in anything or at least sound like one. And so having like some like flagging or like knowing like what is real and what like focus on the human element, I think is so important. And, you know, we, you know, we do music software production, sorry, music production software.

39:59And like we focus on like our commitment is to the musician and helping the musician, you know, not have to spend so much time on the tedious things that slow the process down and have more time and control for like thriving in what they do. And I feel like the same holds true for dating. Yeah. And so, you know, we don't have a ton of time left, but there definitely, you know, there's a lot more that we want to cover. And so where I want to go next is we talked about flattening of the organization. You shared with us in our prep that you're also rewriting the Younger Employee Playbook with rotational programs.

40:43You've reinstated some internship programs. you know we talked about how you're doubling down with Gen Z like from your perspective like as we've now talked a lot about the future so what is explain with us a little more about the bets you're making today to have the talent that you're looking for in the future I'll tell you it's

41:03D.V. Williams: paramount doubling down on Gen Z you heard me talk a little bit about like the influence on product and what's going on in the world and how people are dating in that shift so that's one the other component of it really is having people that we're a very small category. So having people within the category, growing them up into the ecosystem so they can influence all the aspects of how we operate as a company. So if we take the rotational program, the rotational program is through different functions, not within your function in different jobs. It's spend some time in products, spend some time in strategy, spend some time in analytics.

41:45D.V. Williams: So as you're growing your career, you understand what their pain points are. They should understand yours and you'll get to a great solution faster. And so that's why we're doubling down on Gen Z through their rotational program, which I think is going to be amazing. The first class is in. I met with them last week. No, just this week. This week. I met with them this week, had an amazing conversation with them. They are hungry and ready and excited about all the rotations. the internship program we saw 20 000 applicants for 26 roles oh my god for 26 roles and that is because a lot of companies are moving away from the earlier career because look resources are tight and so they're like look i need someone who's already ready-made who's done this same job somewhere else and we're like hey you know what the long play the more strategic and sustainable play is to develop them and have them help develop us into the organization of the future.

42:48With the rotational program, and sorry if you said this already, but was this open to current employees, like entry-level employees, or was this open to net new employees that you were hiring? Who's a part of this first class?

43:05D.V. Williams: The first class is all new employees that we hired. And ironically, we were one of those companies that did not hire right off college campus. And so we created entry level roles in order to start this program. Tell us more about that. Yeah. So it was the, usually you needed between three to five years of experience to come into any of our core functions prior to. So I see like this was something y 'all didn't have previously. Yeah. Not a ton of analysts, not a, you know, Hey, I'm a finance person. I got my bachelor's and now I want to work as a financial analyst associate. Those roles didn't exist.

43:46D.V. Williams: It was the people who had three plus years experience coming into our ecosystem at the, at that level. we were the ones that were looking for ready-made talent. And what we found is, yes, you do want talent that are coming with differentiated experience because that's how you grow. But we also need to have some homegrown talent in the organization before they become too much of a subject matter expertise in one area. And how many people get into the rotation program? So you have 26 interns and then how many? There were four in our first class. Okay, four in the first class. And how different does a rotation program of 2026 look from the rotation programs of the past?

44:27Or is it largely the same?

44:29D.V. Williams: They are not the core foundation of them. Rotational programs are not new by any stretch of their imagination. It is the flexibility within them and what the outcomes are from them that has shifted. And so you know, they used to be by function. So if you're a finance person, and you rotated through three different types of finance challenges, and you came out and you took a finance job. And we're saying, we're looking for those who may end up as a finance manager, but before they get there, they will know about product, they will know about analytics, they may know about technology, and then they may end up as a finance manager.

45:05D.V. Williams: But there'll be one dangerous finance manager once they get there, because they'll know what happens and how this business operates, and they can solution for us and have a better strategy and how we evolve as a company by doing so. That's the difference in this rotational program from those of the historical past. So not everyone, it's a pretty exclusive small group that are going through these programs. And so what advice would you give to the people out there that are aspiring to be in programs like this that are looking for ways to future-proof themselves at their companies, just in their trade?

45:50What should we all be doing as talent out here trying to be the cream of the crop?

45:55D.V. Williams: I would definitely say be curious. Be very curious about how things work outside of what's in your job description. That's number one. It makes you a better person for the organization. It helps you develop yourself and how you view the world expands when you just don't, when you focus more than what's on your job description. That's one. Two, AI is a big component and how you're leveraging AI is going to be very important. I think that my hot take is those who will do well longer term will know how to use AI to their advantage as opposed and prompt it and do that work. than those who are using AI as a way to get something quickly done.

46:42D.V. Williams: So it'll be a differentiator in the workforce for sure. Seek out companies that are driven and focused around their evolution and growth that aligns to what you want to do ultimately. I know everyone, look, I'm much senior and older, so it's easy for me to say, oh, try something and you might like it. But truly, you know, take a chance and take a risk on something that may not be the perfect fit of what you had in your head or match your degree or what your previous experience is. And take the chance if it's something that you're actually interested in and curious about, because that'll be the differentiator.

47:22D.V. Williams: If you look back in history, some of the greatest leaders don't have the background that you would assume that got them to that job. They came from all over the place. And so be very curious and take the risk. Love it. Such great advice. And second part of my question is for HR leaders out there, like what can we be doing to prepare everyone? Like what's a call to action? Similar call to action, though, but for the HR leader, what should we be doing to prepare our talent for the future? Yeah, listening to them, one. I got to tell you to understand what the needs are, you have to listen to your employee base.

48:04D.V. Williams: Get their feedback, understand where they are, understand what their goals are and what their non-negotiables are from that standpoint. And stop trying to push a square pig in a round hole. Because you will evolve as an organization and your employees will understand it and evolve with you if they see themselves in that culture. That's really big. That's really, really big. The other component about development is focus on skill acquisition and not development to get to the next title. Focus on the skills that are relevant to the work that your organization does. Not that you do, but that your organization does to make yourself competitive in the marketplace.

48:51I love that.

48:52D.V. Williams: The best interviews I've had, I'll say this one thing. The best interviews that I've had are those you forget what type of job they're interviewing for because they're telling you about the product and the business and how it works and then the small part they play in it or the big part. All great advice. Well, we've officially reached that point. We've only got a few minutes left, but we end every episode with rapid fire questions. and it's the same set of four questions. You ready? Okay, go for it. All right, question one. What's one piece of advice that you'd give to somebody who's just starting their career in HR today?

49:35And I know you already kind of answered this question. So anything that you'd add?

49:39D.V. Williams: Really short, be curious about everything, not just HR. The best thing that I ever did was leave HR for two years, took a business role, took a pay cut and learning in those two years set me up for the rest of my career. Love that. Next question. If your team gave you a superpower nickname, what would it be? Probably Octopus. I like that. A working knowledge of everything. And sometimes I flail my arms. So.

50:11What's a strategy or practice from another company that you'd love to steal? people are going to be stealing your

50:17D.V. Williams: I've stolen it I've already stolen it there's a practice we've set aside time in certain groups within the organization and other leaders are adopting it AI time where folks can work on passion projects with no particular outcome in mind so there's work hours set aside for them to do just that and explore so much better that way than in my bed at 10 30 p.m. trying to vibe code some stupid project that I'm obsessed with. Who should we have on the show next? You know, we've been so fortunate to have so many great people, many of whom, you know, we sourced through this question. But if you think about someone who, you know, deserves the spotlight, you know, who should we?

51:05D.V. Williams: I don't know if she's been on here already or not, because you all have done a lot of interviews. But that's the easiest question you've asked me today. uh the lana brand cpo at peloton no but we we would love to have her yes that's that's a really good recommendation that is um it's like why haven't we already at yeah right okay last tradition of every episode is one word or phrase close we we all respond with a word or a few that that's coming to mind as we wrap this up you got anything yes my favorite quote of all time and one that is even you know over it has stood the test of time it's from milton burrell if opportunity doesn't knock build a door hmm gen z is building doors they're knocking doors down they're doing all the things and so uh that's that's a quote i live by steven you got anything yeah i do it's it's kind of inappropriate but it's very on topic um i was gonna go with gen z hold it down like if you're the only one if that's a dating segment like come on y 'all save the world i was gonna go gen z as well i'm gonna say yeah the future builders are gen z i don't know yeah the one thing i'll say about the this whole gen z conversation i am doubling and tripling down on Gen Z, but there is a tremendous amount of value in all of the other generations.

52:37D.V. Williams: And being able to leverage that along with Gen Z, you're going to be awesome. Your company's going to be amazing. That's the magic. That's where the magic is. I drop. Well, DV, thanks so much for joining us today. It's been a blast. It's been a ton of fun. Hey, thank you for having me. This has been great. I appreciate it. All right. Bye, guys. Bye. thanks for tuning in to another episode of the modern people leader we really really appreciate it and if you enjoyed the show please leave us a five-star rating it would mean the world to us and connect with us on linkedin we want to know what you think about the show and you can find links to both of our profiles in the show notes thanks again for listening and see you on the next episode

53:30Bye-bye.