Jonathan Fitchew: ‘I still think about my late business partner every day’

0:00Jonathan Fitchew:Welcome everyone to the latest episode of the Naked Founder podcast, a business podcast where nothing is hidden. Thank you to our sponsor, Financial, the home of money for women. Our guest today is serial entrepreneur and chicken owner, Jonathan Fitchew, founder and group CEO of Apprentify. Welcome, Jonathan. Good morning, Chris. Well, we're going to be talking about chickens later, but we always start every episode of the Naked Founder podcast with the same question. What didn't they tell you about founding a business that you wish you'd known at the start, Jonathan?

0:27Andy Sawer:Well, I guess if they told me that I was going to have endless sleepless nights, obsessed entirely about the process, never stop thinking about it, always be in the ring, you probably wouldn't do it if you knew that. I think people think it's a job that they're just in charge of, whereas actually it's a way of life and it's not for the faint hearted.

0:53Jonathan Fitchew:I think that's a really good description, actually. But if you knew everything that you knew now, would you do it all over again?

0:59Andy Sawer:I would. I don't think I don't think some of my more successful ventures would have taken as long if I'd known what I know now. OK, because because I think a lot of young people want to start a business or have an entrepreneurial idea and they don't know anything and they just get on with it. So that so they have to make the mistakes as they go. And if they're lucky enough to survive the mistakes, then they come out with their battle scars. and then they win the day. But often many of them don't. So, you know, there's a lot of talk about teaching entrepreneurship, really. And I think it's a good thing.

1:32Andy Sawer:And anything I can share, not that I'm professing to be an expert on it, anything I could share with young people, I'd love to do that.

1:39Jonathan Fitchew:Absolutely. And you're sharing your expertise today on the Naked Founder podcast. When we talk about founders and co-founders, one thing that people often don't talk about is what it's like when you lose a co-founder. We talk about it when you go your separate ways, when you don't carry on in the business together. But your story is slightly different. So before we talk about Apprentify, we're going to talk about Pareto Law. You founded it with your good friend, Andy Sawyer, in 1995. You shared an office with Andy for 26 years at Pareto Law, but Andy tragically died in January 2021 after a six-month battle with cancer.

2:10Jonathan Fitchew:Now, you said when Andy died, part of you died too. And within a second of walking back into that office that you shared with Andy for all those years, you saw his empty desk and you knew that was it for you and Pareto Law. So just tell us that moment and how it felt.

2:25Andy Sawer:Well, I mean, you probably oversimplified it a little bit because you haven't got the knowledge. But, you know, his battle was from November 19 and he'd been feeling ill for six months before that. And then he had the whole of the Covid year being treated and then sadly died in January 21. And the strange thing was I'd actually lost my love for Pareto back in 2019. So him and I had been talking and I'd said I wanted to do something new. And it might have been that that was the end of our partnership at that point, because he liked it. He loved it and he'd probably wanted to stay with it. But then he fell ill and then Covid was announced.

3:06Andy Sawer:And I just thought he's in the trenches with his illness stoically and I'm in the trenches looking after the business. So we've got to go on this journey of Covid. And it was a really interesting one because actually him and I used to go into the office. him him you know in between treatments and we just sit there the place was deserted but we we were so used to doing that we didn't want to be at home and I don't know whether we're breaking the rules or not but we went in and he need he needed a companion during his illness so so when he finally died it sort of took my handcuffs off because my job was done I'd looked after the business through COVID getting it ready for when it ended if it did ever end you never knew when you're in it.

3:47Andy Sawer:And he wasn't there to enjoy the moments with. So it was just a natural point to leave. And I just knew I didn't need to be there anymore. And I didn't want it anymore. I would have never wanted it without him anyway.

4:00Jonathan Fitchew:Was Andy a friend first and a founder second or the other way around?

4:03Andy Sawer:Yeah, we became friends. We met on a Mercury Communications sales incentive. As all good friendships normally start. In Switzerland. And we were being royally treated, I think back in the 80s, entertainment budgets for corporate life were quite extravagant. And we were in this fancy hotel, wining, dining, and he was a bon vivant. He loved the food and the drink. And he just had a very, very warming personality. He was actually interested in people. He asked questions of people, didn't matter where they were from. So he was very self-deprecating and charming. And, you know, we had a big night. And the next day I met him in the breakfast, just said hello as I was passing.

4:44Andy Sawer:He had a plate, four fried eggs, four rashes of bacon. And I thought, this man can do it. You know, this is someone who I can do business with. And then a moment later, we're on a funicular going up to the top of to the James Bond revolving restaurant of Mont Blanc, both terrified in this little tunnel on this train and had gone from men to mice overnight. And I thought I just really liked him. and I knew something was going to happen with us.

5:11Jonathan Fitchew:I don't think you can force a business with a co-founder unless you like the co-founder. It sounds really obvious. It would be a bit like being in a relationship with somebody who doesn't like the other person as well. But sometimes you just click and you think we could do something magic together. We're going to talk about Pareto Law a bit later in the podcast. I'm going to take you back a bit to when you were 23, which in your case is probably only a few years ago. You've always been an entrepreneur. And I think back then you borrowed 15 grand to buy into a business called RPL Telecommunications, which you built and sold.

5:42Jonathan Fitchew:Would you say you've always been an entrepreneur and have you always been a risk taker?

5:47Andy Sawer:Well, being a risk taker, I think I think if you have an entrepreneurial streak in you, you don't sort of look at it like risk. I mean, I don't I don't gamble, you know, I mean, I might put a fiver on the Grand National, but gambling is of no interest to me. And people always associate gambling with risk taking. So I really think it through. I always think it's going to succeed. There's a bit of optimism there, naturally, because many, many businesses don't. I mean, they talk about four out of five or nine out of two. I don't know what the stats are. So to me, I was risk taking, but it was it wasn't affecting anybody else.

6:21Andy Sawer:It was just affecting me. So, you know, as a young man, I was prepared to take that chance. And it was the opportunity cost. If I didn't buy in when I did, then I just I was just going to be an employee in that business. And I felt I had more to offer because I had ideas about growing the sales and product and all sorts of things. So I had to take the risk. And in those days, you went into a bank branch and you waited outside and you went into the office with the manager and you pitched them. And he sat there with his great suit on. Like an investor almost. Yeah, there was no telephone, no internet, no filia forming over the phone.

6:55Andy Sawer:And he actually told me off because I had my dad's RF tie on and he knew about the RF. He said, you're not entitled to be wearing that tie. I just pulled it out of my dad's cupboard. Yeah.

7:03Jonathan Fitchew:But a lot of it is about how you present yourself as well. I mean, people talk about the fact the decisions they regret are the ones they don't make, not the ones they do make as well. So what's the worst that can happen? You borrow 15 grand. That thankfully turned out to be quite a good investment as well. It was. And then Pareto Law. So you mentioned that you met Andy on this jolly. OK, you realise this was a guy that you could do business with. You liked the cut of his jib, so to speak, as well. you chose the name Pareto Law, which is named after the Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto. I've almost certainly murdered that pronunciation.

7:37Jonathan Fitchew:He works on the 80-20 principle and the idea that 80 % of a company's sales will come from 20 % of its sales team. So what problem are you trying to fix with Pareto Law?

7:47Andy Sawer:Well, his law is a general law about uneven distribution. It's sort of about 20 % of the good stuff comes out of the 100 % and people sweat the 80 % when And they should sweat the 20%. So you can apply it to anything. I was applying it to sales. And it was because I'd been bitten with an expensive mistake at RPL of taking on some so-called experienced salespeople, big car, big expenses, retained commission. They were going to be brilliant. And these two people over about six months didn't sell so much as a BT wall bracket. And I thought, God, I've spent so much money. But I wasn't that person.

8:28Andy Sawer:And I was just a grad who came out of college, did a sales training course with Rank Xerox. And I know how to do it. So why waste money on expensive mistakes? So everybody I then took on in RPL was a trainee from the university. I'd go up to the careers office and say, give me another 20 to interview. And so people can spend their entire life being bad at being experienced at something. You know, I think it's like if you get a 60-year-old taxi driver who scares the life out of you, They're clearly not very good drivers, but it's their job. So experience isn't necessarily gained by repetition. There's more to it.

9:05Andy Sawer:So I thought I want to find a way of finding the best qualities of a salesperson, which to me is a mix of ego and empathy. If they've got too much ego, they're just they'll sell you anything just to get the deal. If they've got too much empathy, then you probably won't buy off them because they're just too nice. And so you want somebody with that equal mix. And I thought I could uncover that through my experience at RPL and offer it as a business service. So everyone said to me, you're mad, you can't call your business pray to law. Everyone will think you're a law firm. I said, good, because when I ring up, they'll probably want to speak to me because they think, you know, whenever there's a lawyer on the phone back then, it must be important.

9:47Andy Sawer:So there were lots of contradictions, family and friends. Oh, you call it that stupid name. And even Andy was reticent on the name, but it was actually our biggest. It was so exciting. And what's so strange is Randstad, as soon as I left the business, they dropped the law off Pareto. Well, there's 500 companies called Pareto in the world. There was only one Pareto law.

10:07Jonathan Fitchew:Yeah. And it's about training the next generation of super, super sales staff as well. But in terms of that number situation, some people can think every member of the team, every member of your staff is the same. not true because you know a small proportion of staff will will generate a disproportionate amount of your revenue as well um so you start Pareto Law and uh you actually started in a broom cupboard in Salford uh as as most tv careers started in a broom cupboard yeah um that was in 1995 as I mentioned before you and Andy spent 26 years sharing that office and other offices working side by side.

10:45Jonathan Fitchew:I know you both had your own families, but did it feel like you were like a couple in some respects?

10:51Andy Sawer:It was incredibly intense, actually. I mean, if we went on a business trip, we shared a room. We never take two rooms. And if we only had a king-sized bed, he had the left side, I had the right. And even when Randstad acquired us, we had to go to this MD's gig at the Hilton on Park Lane and the CEO's PA rang up and said, you know, we need to book you a couple of rooms at the Hilton. And I said, no, we only want one. Well, you're not allowed one. You have to have one each. I said, well, we won't use it because we always share. Do people think you were a couple? Well, no, I don't think they thought that.

11:26Andy Sawer:I think they thought we were a bit Morecambe and Wise. And so when we got to the Hilton, we got our two room keys and we went into the room that was the one we didn't want to use and we just rolled around on the bed and messed it up a bit and then went back to our room. So that's just how we were. It was just very close. and, you know, there was a... If we were on a trip, you know, there's a comfort to... If you're married and you can hear your wife or partner or whatever, you know, just snoozling away just over there, it's quite a reassuring thing, isn't it? And I got that from our relationship.

11:57Jonathan Fitchew:Yeah. Were you Morcombe or were you wise? Well, I guess... I suppose I'd have to be Eric because Andy was a bigger, more lively character than me. Did you and Andy ever disagree, Jonathan?

12:11Andy Sawer:Yeah, frequently. but when we did it was always in private we were a total united front with anybody we dealt with didn't matter who it was and we would sulk for a couple of hours and just sort of his desk would be over there and mine would be over here and we'd just sort of a little glance now and again and him tapping away and then lunch would come and lunch was the breaker so we'd go over to the chippy and we'd order a sausage and I'd say you cut I'll choose and cut it in half and you get half each and then the friendship was back on. So it didn't last for very long at all.

12:45Jonathan Fitchew:Yeah, brought together by a Savaloi.

12:47Andy Sawer:Yeah, normally a Savaloi. Occasionally a KFC.

12:50Jonathan Fitchew:Absolutely. So everything's going great. You grew the turnover of the business, Pareto Lord, 40 million, 400 staff. 2008, Pareto, partly acquired by Randstad. And for those listeners and viewers who don't recognise or don't appreciate the scale of that business, they're a 22 and a half billion dollar global provider of hr services and the second largest staffing organization in the world so jonathan what's it like when they come knocking sound effect done by chris mcguire available for all good tv shows um and they want to buy your business well it was very flattering you know and at that time we were just growing and growing we weren't even considering selling the business so you know i guess they send these letters out through agents

13:36Andy Sawer:and they kiss a lot of frogs and, you know, they've got these businesses that interest them. And so we got involved in conversations, but it was really slow. I mean, I think I think the first approach was sort of the end of 2006. And then eventually they came to see us. And I really like this guy, Brian Wilkinson. He was a really dynamic CEO and he explained their philosophy wasn't to take away our culture and our brand and to let us grow. And there was an urn out and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, PE wasn't really around for smaller businesses then like it is now. You know, so trade sales tended to be the way to go.

14:12Andy Sawer:And we both had young families. You know, we both got married. We had young kids. And it was a sort of hedge, I think. I think it was a de-risking because we didn't have to sell it all. But the truth is we were supposed to be gone after three years after that. But of course, it was also it was also quite fortuitous because the world collapsed in April 2008. And we got our deal away on the 28th of March 2008. And we were the last business. Randstad had about 10 businesses they were buying. And we were the last one. The other nine got thrown in the bin. And, you know, people find this strange, but I wish I was one of the nine that didn't go through.

14:51Andy Sawer:I really do, because my world changed. OK, I had this big check and, you know, we were secure and the world was in recession. But I felt I felt like the air had been sucked out of me.

15:03Jonathan Fitchew:I speak to some founders who sell a business or a chunk of their business and they talk about the fact they feel like they've sold one of their children. Did you feel like that?

15:11Andy Sawer:Well, I mean, my children come to me above everything, so I didn't feel like selling selling one of the kids. but it did feel like you know you wake up in the morning after the drinks and you know you go to the cash point you put your pin number in and there's all these zeros after the number in your current account oh my god and i thought yeah but what have i done it really was that experience but you just crack on and we got involved and it was quite interesting for a while i'd never been part of one of these great big organizations and i sort of enjoyed it for a while and andy loved it because you think we had it all really they left us alone we had a great salary that we'd negotiated we got big bonuses if we hit our numbers we got dividends on the shares we had remaining but it was no longer felt like mine you know i felt like i was renting it you know it's like a

16:04Jonathan Fitchew:property i suppose other founders have used that same analogy actually where it was no longer yours and you're going into somebody else's business as well and as a founder that's that's at odds with with what your dna is um i'm going to come back to andy again and like this is the naked founder podcast so we probably go to areas that other podcasts don't go um but when andy was diagnosed with cancer and you were visiting me in hospital and at the same time you're trying to grow a business simultaneously as well just from a practical point of view seeing a guy that you clearly love battling cancer but also trying to sustain a business how did you cope with that

16:45Andy Sawer:that challenge well it was really difficult actually because of course you know he he had his first big operation just before christmas in in 2020 in 2019 but just before christmas and then of course i remember i you know we were all really hopeful that they'd done a good job of the operation and that then he would start his therapy in terms of radiation and chemotherapy and all this stuff and I had a family skiing trip and it was only on the skiing trip that COVID was announced and it was really scary because we were at the airport coming back from from Austria and all these people are coughing in the in the lounge and I thought you know I was telling my kids to hold their breath and everything so we he was in a crisis I mean existential crisis but I knew the business was about to go into that crisis so it wasn't like normal work resumes it was totally different it was navigating two two really terrible things at the same time one where I had a responsibility to the business and the other where my best friend and business partner