1: Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part One | It Was What It Was

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1:07Choose premium, clean fragrances, adjust the intensity, and set schedules right from your phone. It's whole home scenting designed for the way you live. Build your Pura system today at pure.com slash whole home. Hey everybody, this is Taylor from the Total Soccer Show and this episode is brought to you by Hotels.com. The summer of soccer is right around the corner and if you aren't using Hotels.com to book the experience of a lifetime, it's worth asking, why? As a member, you save up to 20 % on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay, which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about.

1:45So whether you're following your team across North America this summer or planning a well-earned escape after being glued to football for weeks on end, make sure you book on Hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's all in the name Hotels.com. Welcome to It Was What It Was. I'm Rob Draper. I'm the co-host of the Football History Podcast with Jonathan Wilson. And with the World Cup underway, we've got a special four-part series on England's 1966 World Cup win. Yes, 60 years of hurt. We're going into the origin story of that. Coming up for you on the channel is part one, where we discuss England's World Cup winning manager, Sir Alph Ramsey, and how he prepared the team for what would become the finest day in England's footballing history.

2:36And in other further episodes, we're going to go more depth. Why on earth did he drop Greaves? What was the controversy around that? How did they celebrate? And also the tactical genius that was Ramsey that won them this World Cup. We go into proper depth into a story you might have heard before, but hopefully it's going to be a load more detail. And if you enjoy it, please do head over to It Was What It Was. And if you sign up to our Patreon channel, you'll get everything, all four episodes straight away, on demand. You won't have to wait for them. But if you want to wait for them, just head over to It Was What It Was.

3:08listen to them on there if you go on to it was what it was feed there's almost 200 episodes now of all sorts of histories from colombia's 1994 world cup to arsenal liverpool 1989 title climax everything you could think of is on there but also if you go on to our patreon there's a whole history of the world cup on there from 1930 to 2022 and lots of bonus episodes on football hooliganism on why Brazil are not doing well in the 21st century. All sorts for you to enjoy. So do check those out and we hope you enjoy this episode.

3:50What was Alf Ramsey like? I don't know. I was only with him for six years. Well, welcome to It Was What It Was. We're on the cusp of the World Cup finals. I'm here with Jonathan Wilson. I'm Rob Draper. We're all very excited. We're looking forward to USA, Canada and Mexico and everything that's going to come this year. But we are a history podcast at heart and we want to look back at some of the most significant World Cups ever. And forgive us foreign listeners. Forgive us Scotland, Ireland and Wales. We do think that 1966, probably 60 years on, is worth a look back at. And not least because of the central character involved, Sir Al Faramsey who is an extraordinary figure and Jonathan I think a little bit underrated by many people gets a bit of a hard time he's sort of dealt with by caricature and and this is part one of four parts where we're going to go through England's World Cup triumph 60 years on and this one is very much looking at the background we're doing the prehistory aren't we before we get on to all the World Cup stuff but I think that in itself is fascinating.

4:58Yeah we'll basically we'll finished today in the summer of 1965 so we'll look at Ramsey look at his background look at the situation he inherited um I really I really enjoyed your your effort at the Jack Charlton impression I mean you think you think of the the the hours I spent in makeup voice coaching trying to get my Alan Hansen or my Kevin Keegan right and you didn't you know not that was nobody in There's ever spoken like that in Ashington. But anyway, never mind. Ashington via Watford. I mean, just Watford. Watford via Watford. See, I think it's fairly clear. England's road to Welcome Glory begins with the appointment of Ramsey's England manager in October of 1962.

5:42Although, of course, because he's Ramsey and he's awkward and he's difficult and he's principled, he doesn't actually take up the job until the March of 63. He thinks it would be unfair on Ipswich. And he's just won the title with Ipswich in 1962. A remarkable achievement. They'd only been promoted the previous season. And they were struggling in the October of 1962. They'd lost to Spurs. They conceded five in the charity shield. There was a sense they'd been worked out, I guess, really. And he didn't want to leave them in the lurch until he was pretty sure that they would survive. So he stayed on Ipswich through to the following March.

6:23I mean, I think that reflects very well on him that he doesn't leave them in a lurch. But also, I mean, remarkable, maybe doesn't quite cover it. I mean, the Ipswich title win under Ramsey is one of the most astonishing things in football unmatched until Leicester, is it not? I guess Forrest is the other one you might add in. And again, a team who get promoted and then that momentum carries them through to the title. And people haven't seen them. I mean, we'll talk later on about why they were tactically innovative and what it was they were doing that confused teams. But yeah, and Ipswich was a small club.

6:59You know, they obviously had this great period, they had a great period under Bobby Robson in the end of the 70s, but they're not, by any stretch of the imagination, one of the historical giants of English football. So Ramsey replaces Walter Winterbottom. Walter Winterbottom has had to deal with a selection committee. One of the things Ramsey demands is autonomy. He wants control over selection. Just explain what a selection committee is, because I think a lot of younger listeners will have no idea that this happened. It's a series of FA mandarins who, in theory, are going around the country looking at games, watching players, and then they gather together and they decide what the England 11 is going to be.

7:42So the manager doesn't pick it, and then the manager is just a coach to pick the 11, is it? I think certainly by the end, Windsor Bottom probably effectively was controlling that process. But of course, one of the problems with this is the assumption that you can design a team by committee. And equally, you know, the famous joke that a camel is a horse designed by committee. People have different ideas about how you play. There's no thought of internal balance. But English football is so convinced that the WM is the only way to play. Well, okay, well, if we pick the best right back, and we pick the best centre back, we pick the best left back, that would be the best back three.

8:21There's no thought that maybe you want one side to be able to get forward and then the other one took across or he's got pace, therefore we can afford a slightly slower play who's better in the air. That is just not part of the equation. There's a committee and they're horse trading. Okay, you can pick your left back if I pick my right winger. It's really not conducive to the increasing tactical sophistication, the idea of a game as being systematised, you see in the 60s. And this is why Ramsey absolutely lays it on the line. I get to pick the team or I don't do the job. So he's inheriting a pretty conservative, old-fashioned situation, and he's trying to modernise that.

9:03But he's also inheriting an England team whose World Cup record really is not good at all. So England didn't play in the World Cups of 30, 34, 38. they weren't part of FIFA they saw beneath them foreigners having a competition clearly the home championship is the real test of football 1950 when they do dare to turn up they get this horrible shock where they lose to the USA also lose to Spain, they're eliminating the group stage 54 they're a bit better they get through the group but they lose 4-2 to Uruguay in the quarterfinal 58 they they finish level on points with a Soviet Union in the group, have a playoff, lose that.

9:46So again, they go out in the group stage. And 62, they actually had, it's an okay World Cup for them. They beat Argentina in the group. They get through the quarterfinal and they're beaten by a Brazil inspired by Garincha. And that, of course, is a famous game where a dog runs on the pitch. Jimmy Greaves. I didn't know you were going to go to this story. Gets out on all. Well, we talked about it in one of the bonus episodes, didn't we? So sign up to our Patreon and you can listen in far more detail to how Jimmy Greaves crawled about on all fours, persuaded a dog to leave a pitch. Then it urinated on him.

10:19And then there was a raffle, which Grincher won. Way more detail in the Patreon. Literally, Brazil were taking a piss. Or the dog was taking a piss, anyway. He wasn't taking it. He was very much giving the piss. Anyway, let's move on from urination issues. So, yeah, Sir Alfa Ramsey, I mentioned at the top of this that very often portrayed as dour, repressed, maybe a bit backward, a traditionalist, not really open to modern ideas or certainly odds with the swinging 60s of sort of London and Liverpool. I suppose that's why that is the counterpoint, is that Britain is opening up and England is at the centre of sort of cultural phenomena.

11:03And we've got this rather gruff sort of middle aged man in charge of the football team. It's in many respects an unfair caricature. No, I don't think it is at all. I think he is quite reserved and he is quite difficult. He is quite cussed and he has this belief in... Yeah, but not backward looking. Not backward looking, that is true. traditionalist i mean i'm not sure he's even traditionalist to be honest i mean his the fact that he kicks out the committee shows he's not a traditionalist i'd say he's probably socially conservative he's emotionally repressed but in football terms he's radical yeah i think that's the the sort of is it even a paradox that that's the makeup of him um so there's a great interview i found uh when i was researching uh i think this was for the book i did on the charlton's that his wife Victoria gave an interview in which she said that she wished Alf would let his hair down occasionally.

11:56It would do him a power of good, I'm sure. I'm sure Ramsay hated this being in public. By the way, he didn't have any, he didn't have much hair either, did he? No. And she said whatever problem he was wrestling with, whatever satisfaction he might feel, he just hides it behind this brusque facade. So in that sense, he's very much of an Englishman of a particular generation. and so Victoria goes on I'm the one in the household who hits the ceiling I think it's a good thing to get out of your system but not Alf he's the rock of Gibraltar I'm not saying he doesn't feel it but he doesn't show emotion he has a will like iron I mean that's also that's certainly all true and as we see in his player interactions I mean there's a certain strength to his lack of emotion I think ultimately that does cost you as a man manager in the long term but there are key situations such as if you've just chucked away in a goal in the last minute of the World Cup final where staying calm and not getting over emotionally is quite important and probably a key strength to him.

12:54Yeah, and being very single-minded, he knows what he wants tactically and he's not going to let any of the outside noise, any of the press, any fans, players talking to him, he's not going to let any of that distract him. I think the other thing about Ramsey is he is massively xenophobic and there's no real way to sugarcoat that. he just doesn't like no it's not even he doesn't like foreigners he doesn't like anybody who's not english he's very dismissive of the scots he really hates south americans he's he's a xenophobe that is just true um the welcome to scotland story yeah exactly why don't you tell that it turns up for it must be a home international doesn't it yeah i guess at glasgow airport and one of the journalists says welcome to scotland mr ramsey goes you must be effing joking which is a great response, I suppose, which I probably wouldn't get away with these days.

13:48And yeah, he's introverted, he's stubborn. I think it's also true his reputation suffers because of England's failure to qualify for the 1974 World Cup. And I think by then, the fact that his football is not necessarily the easiest on the eye, his refusal to bow to the will of the media and the fans to pick some of the more maverick players of the 70s. All that sort of creates the idea of he was a very stern, boring man. And I think, you know, England are unlucky to lose, sorry, to draw that game against Poland in 1973 that means they don't qualify for the 74 World Cup. But at the same time, I think it's obvious that by then England's football is lagging behind the best that West Germany or the best that Dutch are producing.

14:34And so, you know, Ramsey follows the familiar path of managers or revolutionaries that eventually what was sparkling anew a few years later is old hat um and i think unfortunately it's it's the end of his england career that often dominates his reputation or shapes his reputation rather than the glory is yeah well i suppose that was getting that i mean it's like great boxers all you all your careers end on the canvas in the end don't they sort of knocked out and whatever your past glories are i mean it is a little bit like that here's a man of i mean okay we've talked about his um he dislike clear dislike of foreigners but the new grant beige book has been really interesting i mean you've talked about one of the things that grant talks about which is that he's probably of romany stock and that he's teased for this really and his nickname dark he is is basically because he is seen as dark-skinned and of romany sort of heritage which of course wouldn't be acceptable today but was seen i think even some of the players would call that about Rapazeen behind his back, wouldn't they?

15:42Yeah, I mean, there's a story. I think it's Bobby Moore and Jimmy Greaves on the bus going to, I don't know, to training or to a game. And they see a Romani camp. And they sort of go, oh, look out for some of your people over there. And yeah, he's really not having that. He doesn't find that amusing at all. And I think it's maybe his self-consciousness about his origins that lead him to have elocution lessons, which is why he speaks in such a bizarre way. He's very strangled. His attempt to sort of speak a sort of form of BBC English, but it keeps on slipping up. The odd vowel sounds not quite right.

16:22And it's just unnatural. The whole thing sounds like he's really having to squeeze the words out. We did a whole episode, didn't we, on the demise of Sir Alf Ramsey. Jonathan, that was one of yours. I can say it's a brilliant episode, so do go back and listen to that and the class issues of the posh, the Roxbridge FA committees and this guy from basically Dagenham in East London who is of Romanism heritage and the huge gulf between that. But the other thing that Grant discovered, which is a genuine revelation, that there was a player playing for Ipswich in the 1950s who'd been convicted of gross indecency with another man, basically a homosexual who'd had some homosexual encounter with another man, which in the 1950s was illegal.

17:04That wasn't made legal until the late 60s in England. And Ramsey goes into bat for him, basically says, I want to sign him, I want him to stay at the club. And he takes the board on and he gets his way. I mean, who can say why he did that? I mean, maybe because he was a really good footballer and all he was thinking of was football team. But it shows a degree of open-mindedness in an era where it really wouldn't have been the done thing to be open-minded about homosexuality. yeah I mean that was a remarkable story it's a very good book that so I mean people should should look it up I mean I think we've been quite fortunate in the last three or four years that there's been a lot of good books about Ramsey in 66 Duncan Hamilton's book Michael Calvin's book so there is a lot more information there than there was sort of yeah even five years ago so So, yeah, there's plenty of further reading you can do.

17:58I think there's one, I'm going to call it a myth because I just don't think it's true, there's one myth, one argument that we probably should deal with now before we get into the weeds, which is the idea that Ramsey somehow stunts English football, that winning the World Cup was a bad thing for England. because it's a David Downing who's a historian who's written very good books on the England-Argentina rivalry, the England-Germany rivalry. And he writes, Ultimately, the real loser in 1966 was English football. Ramsey's success reinforced English insularity and reduced what willingness there was to learn from abroad, thus condemning the national game to the status of a backwater.

18:41The old values of toughness, speed and never-say-die attitude had been reinforced, but the insistence on fair play, which had always accompanied them, would weaken as the game became more thoroughly professional. Now, I'm not sure that when you've only won one World Cup, you've got any business saying, actually, it was a bad thing. I think you've pretty much got to celebrate that. And also, that seems to completely ignore quite how radical Ramsey's solutions were. And it's not his fault if people who followed him ended up sort of getting stuck in a rut and couldn't see what the Dutch were doing, what the West Germans were doing.

19:20I guess it is by the early 70s his fault. But many old managers or ageing managers end up reproducing what's brought them success rather than looking for further innovation. I think Guardiola is very unusual in that respect. He does keep evolving. Alex Ferguson kept evolving. But those are the rarities. To blame Ramsey for the fact that England haven't won the World Cup for 60 years seems to me extraordinary because without Ramsey, England would never have won the World Cup. I don't have anything to talk about. I mean, I think the point is that Ramsey wins the World Cup and obviously we're building up to this because of specific tactical interventions which changed the course of modern football, you know, almost as much as total football world during 1974.

20:02And that's often overlooked. It wasn't that he was relying on sort of old-fashioned British values. He was reframing how the game was played with a back form without wingers and everyone's going to follow him. And as you say, it's not his fault that we don't build on that success. It's true that England doesn't build on that success. And there isn't anyone who, I mean, it's interesting that Revy doesn't build on it because he is a very talented manager. But there isn't anyone who can incorporate the Dutch style into that Ramsey style and maybe mould something uniquely for English football in the 70s or for the England team in the 70s and 80s.

20:37but yeah I think it's wanting to see always see England as backward and regressive and not open to foreign ideas I mean certainly as you've instigated Ramsey wasn't particularly open to foreign ideas but he had really good ideas of his own well hang on I think he is open to foreign ideas he just doesn't admit it yeah okay he just doesn't like foreigners but he likes their ideas whether he even admits that to himself I think is a fascinating thing but but you know As we'll find, there's a tournament in Brazil, the Mundialito, in 1964, and we'll talk about that later in this episode, that is key.

21:11But let's have a look at Ramsey's background, shall we? And we've talked about this in previous episodes, so we'll do this fairly quickly. I think one of the key things about Ramsey, he's a full-back, he's a right-back, he played for Spurs, played for England, and he played in the two great post-war humiliations of English football. He played in that 1-0 defeat against the USA in Belo Horizonte in 1950 in the World Cup, and he played in the 6-3 home defeat to Hungary. in 1953. So the two games that really make England start to doubt, hang on, maybe we're doing this wrong. I mean, nobody thinks the USA are doing it right, but it is an embarrassment.

21:46Losing to Hungary in 53 really does make people think, yeah, maybe we have somehow, implausibly, the foreigner has got better and we need to improve to catch him up. Ramsey doesn't think that though, does he? No, I mean, because Ramsey plays for Spurs. Spurs have this push and run tradition. Arthur Rowe was his coach won the league with him in 51 Arthur Rowe of course had been in Hungary in the late 30s there's a lot of similarities between Arthur Rowe's thought that he brings to Tottenham or that he continues to Tottenham because Peter McWilliams is actually the person who's instilled it and the way Hungary are doing things so Ramsey's viewpoint is well Hungary's football is just Spurs football they have Pushkas and Koksic and Bostek and they're just a bit better than us so Ramsey's view is hungry and not revolutionary.

22:36They're just better at doing something we already knew about. So this really, that defeat confirms to Ramsey that the Spurs way is the right way. Now he retires as a player in 1955, aged 35. Or is he? Because he's actually, he's lied on his registration and taken two years off his age. Everybody thinks he's 33, but he's actually 35. It's not that. A professional footballer. again it's a man who's very concerned or very aware of how perceptions can shape your career and he's trying to just yeah if he looks two years if everything's two years younger that's that can only help him if people think he's maybe not as working class as he actually is well maybe that'll help him as well he's a man who defines his own myth i know pros dying their hair black basically keep your hair because any gray hairs just perception is everything and so Obviously, people know your age, but I know professionals have said, no, I dye my hair because I don't want people to think I'm old because I want the next contract.

23:39Yeah, that makes sense. So he doesn't get the Spurs job, which I think he thought he might have a chance of. He ends up going to Ipswich in the third division. We talked about that in our Bill Nickerson episode. It's extraordinary he's not considered for that, isn't it, given he's part of that whole tradition. Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether they think he's just a bit awkward, a bit difficult. It's also extraordinary that Bill Nicholson maybe was considered for the England job. Because it is certainly a period where getting the England job is seen as a pinnacle and that Alf gets it over Bill Nicholson.

24:13Well, I guess Nicholson... No, he had won the double by then, hadn't he? So yeah, I mean, yeah, that is interesting. But yeah, he goes to a switch. Nobody really thinks much is going to happen there. The squad's ageing. There's not much money available for investment. But Ramsey slowly imposes the structure. And in his second season, he leads Ipswich to promotion so they're now in the second division then 60-61 they go up again and so what you're seeing here and I think we see this with England there's a slow improvement there's a slow movement towards the model he's not somebody who comes in and says rip up what you've been doing this is it he does it incrementally and he's begun to develop a system with a withdrawn winger.

24:57So Jimmy Ledbetter is a left winger. He's not quick. And Ramsey realises there's no point having him taking on his fullback because even if he beats him, he hasn't got the pace to get away from him. So he has Ledbetter sit deep. So that gives the fullback a problem. Does he follow Ledbetter, which then leaves space behind him, which Ted Crawford can move into that space? Or does he sit off, hold this position, But then Ledbetter can dictate the game unopposed from deep. So Ramsey's starting to experiment with what we do with wingers. Do we actually need traditional wingers? And this, of course, he will take much, much further with England.

25:37Yeah, I just think his willingness to, I think all football tactics is trying to scramble the brains of the opposition and going, what on earth are they doing? And if you get a team into that position, you've got a really good chance of winning the game. And there are very few thinkers in English football who match Ramsey in this regard. Yeah. And this is so successful that when he does it in the first division, it works again and they win the league the first season up. It's a really incredible achievement to take Ipswich to the league. I mean, Ed Sheeran, notwithstanding, and Bobby Robson will go on to do great things at Ipswich.

26:08Ipswich is on the periphery of English football, isn't it? I mean, literally, it's like right on the East Coast. So it's not a central hub. It's not a massive football place. It's only really, I guess, Ramsey and Bobby Robson And then, of course, now Ed Sheeran that has put Ipswich as a significant football place. But prior to this, they're kind of nothing really, aren't they? Yeah. I do wonder if Kieran McKenna might think it's something to do with him rather than Ed Sheeran. But yes. No, I think it's definitely Ed's sing-alongs that has, you know. So when England appoint Ramsey, what they're getting is a very, very modern tactician.

26:44They're getting somebody who is messing around with the back four. He's messing around with wingers. He's messing around with mobile centre forwards. This is all incredibly modern. Do you think the FA actually knew what they were appointing? Because I can't believe any FA committee would have gone for that. They've probably just seen the league title win, haven't they? Yeah, I think it's entirely possible a couple of that committee knew exactly what they were doing. But I think the majority of them probably, he's a good coach. He's inspirational. He's done this incredible thing of taking Ipswich from the third flight to win the title.

27:15and he's cheap is probably also, knowing how the FA worked in those days, that's probably on their mind as well. Ramsey's also using a zonal marking system. So he's moved to a systematized approach. So the old individualistic style that Matt Busby had been so successful with, that's fading away. This is what Ramsey's doing is similar to what Shankly's doing, similar to what Rivi's doing. and I think this is the thing that is often overlooked. Ramsey's triumph in 66 is fundamentally a triumph for tactical radicalism. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not, I don't think it's necessarily, England have some very good players in this team and obviously Bobby Charlton and Bobby Moore and Gordon Banks, but I don't think necessarily they have, they are the best team in the competition, but you could break down other teams and say they have as good individuals during that competition.

28:15Well, arguably better if you look at Portugal, for instance, or the Soviets, even Hungary. But where does this come from? So, Rob, I want to take you back to the ideal home show at Olympia in West London in 1956. That's where I always want to go, Jonathan. There's an exhibit there entitled The House of the Future. And if you look at the photographs now, it looks like a set for an early sci-fi film. It's all bare walls and hexagons. There's a woman with sort of very sort of, her hair's twisted, like she's a gorgon or something, snakes on her head. There's a man dressed in a very strange sort of one-piece suit, very high waist, and it's a weird little short jacket and these big sort of like trolemans waders.

29:04It's very odd. It's almost like they thought fashion was going to get weird in the future. and they they can summon a table to rise from the floor by pressing a button on a large cube which sits on this this sort of slightly slightly frightening looking hospital trolley next to this really uncomfortable looking plastic chair but the really the really striking thing is the aesthetic ignore their clothing which is preposterous everything else in the room is cold it's hard it's functional but designs incredibly spare the only decoration is a single line that just runs a few inches from me there's never been a better time to get outside and experience the benefits of nature discover nearby trails and explore the outdoors with all trails download the free app today and find your outside hey sweetie your mother showed me this carvana thing for selling the car.

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31:27edge of the table and the floor and the media think this is amazing so this is this is from the daily mail so it must be true this must be yeah the daily mail have a finger on the pulse of middle england absolutely this is patricia kearan in the in the mail we still have very nearly the same inconvenient inefficient pattern of living as our parents and even our grandparents but consider the progress in other fields and there's this growing willingness to look at these inefficient patterns and to start to consider brutalism which jonathan meads the great cultural commentator he calls the most extreme strain of late modernism now i can see it in your eyes you said why is he banging on about brutalism and it's because football just like any other discipline follows cultural fashion but i would argue that football follows architecture more closely than it follows any other sphere you see that in total football total football is about architecture and urban design ramsey's football is brutalist football so football so before the first world war being very concerned about doing things the right way it becomes much more pragmatic after the First World War.

32:43By the late 50s, nutrition, diet have improved. Partly because ration came to an end in 54. I think there's a greater understanding of sports science, better developments in terms of boots, kits. Players can run faster, can run for longer. People have seen that the strict man-to-man marking of the WM doesn't work anymore. Even England has begun to lose faith in the traditional winger. And so that gives you a far greater flexibility of approach. post 53, post the defeat to Hungary there's a lot of experimentation people are trying different things British culture is inherently conservative at this period and so if you look at the great brutalists people like Le Corbusier or your Bauhaus they seem sort of overtly foreign so the cultural historian Ben Hymer writes brutalism was meant to have a whiff of goloir's and existentialism, but it was also meant to echo with jive talk and jukeboxes.

33:41So it's somehow continental, but it's also American. Even the name brutalism is French. It doesn't come from brutal. It comes from beton brut, raw concrete. So whatever was happening elsewhere, this is Barnabas Calder in a book called Raw Concrete, which I would heartily recommend. It says stone-faced classicism seemed better to represent the timelessness of empire and the solid grandeur of world power status. But that's exactly what is being challenged. That is what Hungary defeats at the Empire Stadium in 1953. And you can say that that stone-faced classicism is represented by Stanley Matthews, by wingers, by Blackpool winning the FA Cup in 1953.

34:24and yet after this defeat to Hungary as the old certainties fall away and English football enters this period of experimentation and you've got Don Revy playing as a deep line at the forward of Manchester City which you talked about before and you see I think this recognition that the mood of the time is about stripping away these inconvenient inefficient patterns so you see that in for instance the destruction of Euston Station which we now look on as this act of cultural vandalism but it's very ornate it's very grand now knock it down build it in a very functional way out of concrete we're knocking down sally matthews we're rebuilding him out of raw concrete that is exactly what ramsey is doing and so elaine harwood another cultural critic she writes of brutalism as prioritizing pragmatism teamwork and an emphasis on efficiency so she's talking about the building style of that period and obviously it's partly conditioned by economics a lot of rebuilding to do after the war there's not much money you have to make it simple you have to make it cheap pragmatism teamwork emphasis on efficiency that's Ramsey's football that's exactly what he's doing so there is this brutalist urge in English culture that is represented in the architecture and also by Ramsey just a couple of points to pick up on before we go to a break as you say brutal brutalism coming from the French word it doesn't mean brutal as in they're over aggressive it which is more functional would probably be the better expression of it in pragmatic football that he's going to do what it takes to win um it's i think it's really interesting we talked in one of our patron editions about 1970 being the end of something for brazil the 1953 cup final actually you know it's meant to be as great for cup final wingers it's actually as you point out the end of wingers really i mean it's kind of its last great hurrah before people start experiment with other ideas and i can imagine i mean i remember at my grandma's home, architecture would have been very fussy and everything was very ornate.

36:26And obviously my grandma wasn't particularly moving to the time. In the 70s her home still reflected the values of the 40s and 50s and it was fussy and ornate and such like. And the new era, the new post-war era, as you say, new towns are being built in places like Harlow, aren't they, to sort of house people who have been bombed out by the war. it's much more functional and much more sort of strategic maybe. Yeah, and I think what we see is from the moment he takes the job, Ramsey knows where he wants to end up. Now, that's not to say he doesn't have new ideas on the way, but he has a blueprint.

37:03He knows where he's going. And you can see between March 1963 and the summer of 1966, this very slow incremental development towards his vision of a brutalist england i mean he would not have called it that because it's a french word and he hates foreigners but that's what he was doing he's a patient english empiricist he's absolutely in that tradition and so should we go into the into the break with some more words from his wife victoria let's stress this is an indie very much of its time he weighs everything in the balance whether it's a tiddly little problem of my own or one of his own much bigger worries then he gives his considered advice sometimes when I still got my own way I think if only he'd be wrong just once but he never is you know we'll see you after the break so welcome back to it was what it was in the second half of part one of our series on England winning the World Cup in 1966, 60 years on, and particularly on Sir Alphamsey.

38:09The architect, one might say, Jonathan, see what I did there of that win. That is liquid podcasting. It just came to me in that moment. And Jonathan, he's got the England job. He is seen as this repressed, slightly difficult character. How does he get on with the players? How does he introduce himself to them? And what sort of overtures does he make to them? so his first game is the second leg of a preliminary match for the european championship 1964 it's against france they've drawn the first leg 1-1 so that situation he's inheriting and i think it's fair to say ramsey lays down his markers pretty early so before this first game he gets a group of senior players and he says just you know have any of you got any suggestions on how we can improve things.

38:59And, you know, players in those days weren't tended not to be asked their opinions. So they're sort of glancing around awkwardly. And Bobby Charlton feels very uneasy in this silence. He thinks, like, I've got to say something. Somebody's got to say something, which is awful. So he says, you know, we always stay at the Hendon Hall Hotel. We train at the Bank of England ground in Roehampton, you know, in southwest London. You know, they're an hour apart. You know, maybe we could find a different hotel or maybe we could train somewhere different. And Ramsey's reply, I've listened to what you have to say and we'll leave it as it is.

39:35That's like all corporate consultations, aren't they? Please put your suggestion in here. Yeah, we've listened to what you said. We won't be doing anything. And there's another occasion when Bobby Charlton, he sort of gets cajoled by the other players and they go, can you ask please? They've got these sort of official suits, he's got heavy suits from Simpsons and Piccadilly, famous tailors. and we've got this summer tour of central Europe it's going to be really hot and these seats are just too warm and Bobby Calvin is sort of forced to go to Arsenal and say is there any chance we get a more lightweight seat?

40:09Nope. So yeah he's the boss you can have your ideas but he's not going to listen to them. I mean I don't think it's a style of management that sustains you well in the long term but at least you know where you are with him. He was blunt to the point of being rude, Bobby Charlton said. Bobby Charlton has to be said, I think he quite likes that strongman leader. He's not bothered by that. He knew the game, he knew players, and most of all, he understood what they needed and how they should be led. And I think that seems to be, in the 60s, what the vast majority of players think. By the 70s, that attitude will have changed.

40:47I don't think it's untrue today, though, as well. I think you'll put up with a lot if someone's leading you in the right direction. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, obviously, people like Rodney Marsh really chafe against the starting league team. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we should say the total backdrop of, you know, everything we said about crucialism is true, but the swing in the 60s is also happening and people, free expression and free love and enjoy yourself. You know, these are not things that Alf Ramsey particularly stands for. Yeah, so this first game, he's not actually in charge fully.

41:16So this is the final game where the FA selection committee picks the team. So Ramsey's still working with Ipswich. You can see he's clearly got an influence because Johnny Haynes is left out. Johnny Haynes, hugely gifted Fulham inside forward. He'd had a car crash a little bit earlier. And I think there's a sense he hasn't quite got back to his best after that. But a bit of a core celeb, the sort of, I don't know, Jack Grealish prior to Euro 2022. It's more than that, though. Johnny Haynes is a much more central thing. It's more like... Dropping Gazrin in... it's not even that it's a much more central figure it's more like Steve McLaren dropping Beckham yeah good analogy thank you thanks very much Bobby Charlton because Bobby Charlton believes in individualism and individual talent he can't believe that Haynes has been left out and he sort of thinks oh it's because he's not fully fit he'll be back as soon as he's fit but Ramsey wants team men he doesn't Johnny Haynes is a bit of an individualist this game goes disastrously badly so Ron Springer the goalkeeper gets kicked in the chest early on and that's maybe a little bit of an explanation but it's not really an excuse England get beaten 5-2 so this great experiment this new manager who's doing things his way it starts with a 5-2 defeat to France and this is not the France of you know the 80s 90s or now this is a France that nobody really rates at all so this is this is a problem the one advantage is it means Ramsey has three years to prepare his team with no competitive fixtures you have no qualifiers because of the hosts for the world cup and they don't have to play in the euros in 1964 which much smaller tournament anyway but Ramsey can set things up as he wants so okay five weeks later they're they're playing Scotland and home championships um well I mean you'd think if he's got radical new tactical ideas he would try and get them introduced quite early why Why does this not happen?

43:16I mean, that's a really interesting question. One of the problems with Ramsey is, and one of the reasons why I think he is slightly underestimated, is he never explains anything. There's no Ramsey autobiography. He's not giving press conferences where he's giving huge amounts of detail on his thought processes. I wonder whether he thinks he doesn't want to do too much too soon, that he has to get used to the players, players have to get used to him before he starts introducing really different ways of playing. I wonder if he's maybe a little bit uncertain about his revolution because 62-3 had not gone at all well for Ipswich.

43:52There's a sense they've been found out. So maybe he's lost a little bit of faith in that. Maybe he's thought at the international level this wouldn't work. But anyway, England don't really play very well in this game. There's a clamour for Haynes to come back. He resists it. And England lose 2-1. and I think there is a bit of a sense of have we done the right thing is he really the right man for the job

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45:54And then they beat Wales 4-0, though. I mean, I don't know. I mean, losing to Scotland was quite a big deal back in those days. England-Scotland matches were huge. they beat Wales 4-0 in October I mean, yeah, significant and we would have thought Wales would have been considered quite a good team for England to beat but yeah, does it feel like the corner's turning at that stage? I think it possibly is so we should just say that Scotland team look down the list of players this is a really good team Jim Baxter, John White, Ian St John Dennis Law it's a side with a lot of great creative talent there.

46:34Dave Mackay as well in that side. So yeah, it's a good Scotland team. Is Dave Mackay a creative talent or is he? No, he's not, but he's a good passer. I mean, England and Scotland are quite well-matched sides in this year. So, you know, it's fair to say, but you know, still losing, it's kind of a bit like a cup final play in Scotland. So losing it is significant. Yeah. And it's at Wembley and losing at Wembley is never good. But yes, you're right. By the time they're beating Wales 4-0 in October, I think there is an acceptance Johnny Haynes isn't coming back. We now know what Ramsey's way is and it is beginning to get results.

47:12But I think it's a trip to Brazil the following summer, summer of 1964. So they do this rather than playing in the years because they haven't qualified for years because of that to beat to France. And this tournament called the Mundialito and it's specifically designed to help with local preparation. You have Brazil, you have Argentina, you have Portugal. Now, we'll come back to this later on, actually, when we get to, I think it's going to be in part three, when we talk about the Argentina game at the World Cup. But this really, I think, is the game where, I think this is the trip where Ramsey's ideas begin to crystallise.

47:49But before that, they have three further fixtures. And these are away matches against Portugal, Ireland and the US. And this is, again, where you see Ramsey's management. So the night before they set off for Lisbon, Bobby Charlton, Jimmy Greaves, Bobby Moore, Gordon Banks, Ray Wilson, George Easton and Johnny Byrne, they look to have a bit of steam and they head into the centre of London from the Hendon Hall Hotel and they wind up in a bar called the Beachcomber off Bayswater Road. And there, it depends whether you believe Bobby Charlton's version or Jimmy Greaves' version, they either have a couple of gentle pints or they get stuck into a rum-based cocktail called a zombie.

48:27I'm guessing, which is Bobby Charlton's version? him which is jimmy greaves it's bobby the one who has a couple of gentle pints and jimmy greaves getting stuck into the zombies exactly that um and at least five of them now again accounts vary but bobby charlton bobby mo and jimmy greaves are definitely all the accounts agree that they're they're three of the five or possibly more than five they miss the curfew curfew is 10 30 p.m and they get back late. So Bobby Charlton sneaks back into the hotel. He thinks he's got away with it. But on his bed, he finds his passport. The dark blue passport in those days on the white pillow, as he puts it, shouting its reproach.

49:13I just think this is brilliant management from Ramsey. He's saying, I know exactly what you've done. He never mentions it. He never says anything to them until they get to Portugal. And at that, he gets the guilty players together. And he says, look, if I could have got the playoffs in time, you would all have been sent home. And it's great. He's making those players feel grateful to him, but he's making them feel really small. He's making them know that this is not acceptable at all, but he's not costing himself their use. I mean, he would have been really stupid, cutting your nose off, just spot your face, but not to cover it, getting rid of that set of players before the World Cup.

49:51But equally, I'm going to sound like an old man. Standards are standards. he has to lay down a law you cannot have footballers breaking curfews and going off to London drinking he has to impose authority on these players yeah I mean it's interesting Bobby Charlton's one of those involved who we think of as a very sort of clean living anyways they play these games and they go off to Brazil for Mundialito and it's sort of disastrous in terms of results I mean I think everybody at this point is thinking this World Cup's going to be a shambles so they get there they play Brazil the day after they arrive but clearly not ready.

50:26He's still got a bit of jet lag. They get beaten 5-1. They draw 1-1 against Portugal. They lose 1-0 to Argentina. As I say, I think we'll go into that in more detail when we get to the Argentina game in 66 because I think that is a very significant game. But what we can say now is Ramsey learns but against really high-level sides, he can't afford to play 4-2-4, which he knew. He knows that from Ipswich. I don't know why he's not applying the lessons he learned at Ipswich, but this convincing convincing 44 almost doesn't matter how good your players are it will not work against good opposition and when he's criticised for going to the Mundialito or doing badly at the Mundialito his argument is look we could play Switzerland or Northern Ireland and we can score eight goals whatever that's not how you win World Cups that's irrelevant what wins World Cups is beating good teams and we have to learn how to play against them I mean and I think actually it seems obvious but it's a lesson that even now I think we haven't fully absorbed as a football culture that England win a group game in qualifying or in a group game in the tournament badly 1-0 every sort of oh no we've got to be thrashing this lot it doesn't matter beating Iran 6-2 did not make England any likelier to win the World Cup in Qatar what mattered was playing France and they lost yeah I mean, I think it was also innovative and I appreciate they're only going to Mundalito because they haven't qualified for the Euros.

51:59But as you say, it does seem crucial for getting his World Cup plans together and playing against South American opposition. I mean, I think, you know, he probably wouldn't have learned as much by going to European championships. And it reminds me of Dan, we're going to do an additional on England's reboot, aren't we? But Dan Ashworth, when he basically stops the England youth teams from playing in the victory shield against England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, because he says, well, they just play the same academy players playing against each other. They want to go and play Portugal.

52:30They want to go and play Argentina. And it's similar type thinking. This was done out of expediency, I guess, because they'd failed to qualify for a tournament. But it might prove, you know, a crucial stepping stone to win in the World Cup. yeah the press unfortunately I mean I think maybe we're sort of we sort of at least recognize that now even if in the moment of having to write a match report when England have been dreadful in losing 1-0 to Japan we perhaps don't remember the purpose of that game but I think particularly back then and I think even when I came into the profession you know 25 years ago there's this sort sort of almost demand that it's your duty to entertain us.

53:12We are the press and we have turned up. These fans have turned up. They've paid all this money to be here. And you produce that. But Ramsey doesn't care. He couldn't care less about the press thing. And you see he's slowly beginning to adapt. He's moving from that 4-2-4 to a 4-3-3. So he's pulling one of the wingers back. It's an asymmetric 4-3-3. So the next question he has to answer is, who's going to play centre-back alongside Bobby Moore? And throughout 64, most of 64, the preferred option is Morris Norman of Tottenham. But Morris Norman is beginning to play at fullback for Spurs. And Ramsey thinks, I need a centre-back.

53:50And I need a defensive centre-back because Bobby Moore, brilliant ball player that he is, great reader of the game that he is, he's not the most physical defender. So I need somebody tall and combative who can do the dirty work for Bobby Moore. Now, there is an obvious candidate. we've already heard from him but he's almost 30 I think this is what's easy to forget about Jack Charlton he's 29 nobody has thought until a couple of years earlier that he's remotely near the right level so Don Revy has seen it Don Revy is I mean you may remember from the episodes we've done on Revy Jack Charlton thinks he's going to join Manchester United he's fallen out with Revy Matt Busby's interested in him and he then feels that Busby sort of messed him around.

54:39And so he goes back to Revy and says, all right, I'll sign. And Revy says, look, if you knuckle down, you will play for England. You're good enough to play for England. And this seems an absurd thing to say at the time. But by the beginning of 1965, Jack Charlton has emerged as the outstanding candidate. And so in April 1965, for the home championship match against Scotland, Alf Ramsey turns to Jack Charlton for the first time. And I think this is astonishing. In those days, particularly, to pick a 29-year-old a year before the World Cup begins for his debut, it's unthinkable to the press at the time.

55:15But even Jack Charlton's a little bit baffled by this decision, isn't he? Well, and Bobby is as well. Everybody's baffled. Do you think, Bobby, there might be a little bit of sibling rivalry going on, though? So Bobby Charlton says, I mean, he's talking about Jack at Leeds one minute Jack was a happy-go-lucky character the next he was a key player in a very hard talented professional team he's bewildered by it I mean of course there's the great story as well that the phone call goes through to Revy just before the FA Cup semi-final between Leeds and Manchester United and Revy is told Jack Tartan has been called up for England for this game against Scotland and Revy decides not to tell him until after the game.

56:00He doesn't want him distracted. Leeds win that game 1-0. It's a pretty brutal game as games win United and Leeds tend to be at the time. Revy then tells Jack in the dressing room afterwards and Jack's reaction, this is before he's had the big falling out with Bobby, is to go straight into the opposing dressing room having just won an epic of semi-final and say, Bobby, Bobby, I've been called up for England. And Bobby's reaction is brilliant. Bobby goes, well done, now fuck off.

56:29Yeah, it's possible one might have said that even if Man United won, to be fair. But yeah, to be fair, going into gatecrash in the opposition dressing room when you just knock them out of the FA Cup, so fine, it's probably not good form, even if it is your brother. Yeah, but you're right. Jack himself is brother. So he goes for Ramsey, and because he's Jack Charlton, he's very blunt. He says, why on earth are you picking me? and Ramsey says I have a pattern of play in mind and I pick the best players to fit the pattern I don't necessarily always pick the best players and Jack is not anything like Bobby Moore he doesn't have his elegance, he doesn't have his confidence on the ball but that's the point Ramsey goes on, you're a good tackler and you're good in the air and I need those things and I know you don't trust Bobby Moore, so Jack's a straight man he's a physical enforcer so what does he mean by that, he means that he will cover for any mistake Bobby Moore might make because he's such a cautious, natural defender, I guess.

57:26Yeah, and I think also he'll be shouting at him. When Bobby Moore's sort of casually wandering about and looking at his options, Jack will be screaming at him, as, of course, he famously does for the final goal in the 66 World Cup final. As Bobby Moore plays that great ball into the left channel for Geoff Hurst to run through and score the fourth, Jack's screaming at him, put it out, just put it out. Because Jack knows these are the final seconds. you put that ball far enough in the stand, it's not coming back in time for even to take the throw. So yeah, it's about that partnership. It's about maximising your strength and minimising your weaknesses.

58:00How do we get Bobby Moore and his passing ability and even encouraging his passing ability? How do we do that without compromising ourselves defensively? You bring in somebody like Jack Charlton. And do you know who the other player who makes his debut that day against Scotland is? I'm guessing it was Nobby Stars because it says that in a note. It was Nobby Siles. But you see a team is now come together. I mean, this is the other great component of Alf Ramsey is that he understands, and maybe in a way that English football hadn't understood, as you explained in the beginning, that you need different components in the team and different types of players to make it balanced.

58:37And that is quite a modern idea. Yeah, it is. The thing is, no selection committee would ever pick Nobby Siles because he's not an obviously great footballer. what he is Bobby Charlton says is a real professional nothing airy-fairy nothing for show just a player doing his job at the highest level Ramsey says he's a player you could trust and I think that idea of trust you can rely on these people and of course by having Nobby Styles there and just for people who don't know Nobby Styles is a very hard-working very aggressive player who plays I mean at times he plays a centre-back but he's not tall for United when United finally go to a back four.

59:17But mostly he plays at the back of the midfield. He's this little terrier. He can barely see. He's got these huge thick glasses, has to wear contact lens when he plays, but they're always dropping out. He's got a sort of clumsiness about him as well, hasn't he? He's got a sort of Norman wisdom quality to Nobby Stiles. There's a famous picture of him with the World Cup, isn't there? He's dancing and holding the World Cup, but he's like a little comedy character. and he was, if I say team mascot, that seems very derogatory, but it's like he was a hard man enforcer, but he clearly wasn't on level with players like Cheltenham and Moore in terms of technical skill.

59:55But by having him there at the back of midfield, it gives a bit of cover to Bobby Moore, but it also allows England to play in midfield with Bobby Charlton breaking forward, with Alan Ball, with Martin Peters. And without Nobby Siles, you cannot have players of that degree of creativity. He was also crucially very influential in being through the class of 92, wasn't he, as part of Alex Ferguson's youth setup, and Gary Neville and David Beckham will all say how important Nobby Styles was to them. Yeah, absolutely. And this game goes very well. This game against Scotland, or at least it starts quite well.

1:00:30So Jack Charlton flicks on a corner for Bobby Charlton to open the scoring. Jimmy Greaves then makes it 2-0. but then injury hits and this is a time before substitutes England end up being reduced to nine men and Scotland come back to force a 2-2 draw but people can see that while they've got 11 on the pitch England have been really, really good and you can see the beginnings the foundations of the World Cup winning side so you've got Gordon Banks in goal and you've got a back four of George Cohen, Bobby Moore, Jack Charlton and Ray Wilson you've got Nobby Stiles and Bobby Charlton reprising their Manchester United combination in the centre of midfield this is the beginning of a side that wins the World Cup so with a year to go till the start of the World Cup let's leave it there and we'll come back next week with part 2 don't forget to sign up to our Patreon where you can get our World Cup Wednesdays our look back every Wednesday at a World Cup of the past and on a Friday you'll get bonus episodes you'll get our nostalgic rambles through old tube magazines there'll be Q &As, there'll be bonus episodes lots of goodies, it's well worth the five or so that it costs so please do sign up and even if you don't please give us five-star reviews continue to rate, review and recommend us because it's the only way we can grow we'll see you next week, thanks for listening Well we hope you enjoyed that little taste of 1966 do head over to our Patreon page on It Was What It Was if you want to listen to the next three episodes now.

1:02:03They're available on demand or you can head over to wherever you get your podcasts and listen to them on a weekly basis through the World Cup on It Was What It Was. Thanks very much for listening.

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