2: Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Two

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2:34Welcome to It Was What It Was. I'm Rob Draper. I'm the co-host of the Football History Podcast with Jonathan Wilson. and with the World Cup underway we've got a special four-part series on England's 1966 World Cup win yes 60 years of hurt we're going into the origin story of that we go into proper depth into a story you might have heard before but hopefully it's going to be a load more detail and if you enjoy it please do head over to it was what it was and if you sign up to our Patreon channel you'll get everything all four episodes straight away on demand you won't have to wait for them but if you want to wait for them just head over to it was what it was listen to them on there if you go on to it was what it was feed there's almost 200 episodes now of all sorts of histories from columbia's 1994 world cup to arsenal liverpool 1989 title climax everything you could think of is on there but also if you go into a patron there's a whole history of the world cup on there from 1930 to 2022 and lots of bonus episodes on football hooliganism on why brazil are not doing well in the 21st century all sorts for you to enjoy so do check those out and we hope you enjoy this episode we won't win the world cup but don't blame Al for Amsie no one would win it with this lot welcome to it was what it was I'm Rob Draper I'm here with Jonathan Wilson the world cup is upon us we're all very excited and we're so excited that we thought we'd look back 60 years to well for us as a significant moment and hopefully for our foreign listeners and even some of our Celtic listeners might appreciate a little bit of looking back at England's 1966 World Cup win we're in part two we're we're coming up to the World Cup you gave us some great background on Sir Alf Ramsey and England's run-ups to the World Cup we're now going to get into the immediate year before and the actual start of the finals.

4:38And Jonathan, that was a great Jimmy Hill, one of your footballing heroes. At the time, he's manager of Coventry City, a visionary in every way in football, a really good man, I think we can all agree. But on a rare occasion, he's completely wrong about something. Yeah, I mean, or one of the most despicable men ever to work in football who gets things wrong, as he always did, and was tolerated for far too long on British TV in British newspapers and should have been drummed out of the game for earlier there are all tons of views on on Jimmy Hill anyway I know you're not a big fan of him but he's a big football figure and the point of the making idiot of himself as he would do so often after this but I think the point is that it's quite representative of the chattering class of football at the time but England are not rated the people think they're a poor side and Ramsey's making a yeah maybe the best of a bad job I mean he's not blaming Ramsey for that but they don't think the players are much good yes yeah exactly that so we left it after a 2-2 draw against Scotland in the April of 1965 which is Jack Charlton's international debut the the the basis of the team is there you've got Gordon Banks in goal you've got the back four of Cohen, Moore, Jack Charlton and Ray Wilson you've got Nobby Styles in midfield also his debut that game Bobby Charlton there so they're reprising their partnership with Manchester United.

6:01So you can see the World Cup side just beginning to come into focus. They then, that autumn, so the 2-2 draw with Scotland, as we said in the last episode, England play really well. They go 2-0 up, then they get two injuries. They've got nine men, and that's why Scotland get back into it. So people think, yeah, this 2-2 draw is pretty good. But then that autumn, they draw 0-0 with Wales. And then they pick the same team for a game against Austria. And this is the game that prompts Jimmy Hill's comment that we opened with. So this is Barry Bridges of Chelsea's partner with Jimmy Greaves up front.

6:37It's a 4-2-4. You've got Terry Payne and John Connolly on the wings. And then you've got Bobby Charlton playing in the middle of midfield. And they're a little bit unlucky, but they lose 3-2 to Austria at Wembley. And this prompts this outcry. Now, look, it's only the third time England have ever lost to non-British or Irish opposition at Wembley. So people weren't... Any defeat at Wembley was a bad thing. But this Austria side had lost 4-1 to West Germany 10 days earlier. But this... The sun. A night of shame. There's boos and jeers from the stands. When the final whistle blows, there's a slow hand clap.

7:18And Donald Saunders in the Telegraph writes, England's World Cup plans thought to be progressing steadily only a few months ago stuttered to an untimely halt so this is the October of 1965 so we're talking what nine ten months before the World Cup and it looks like England have no chance and I'm very heartened to see that even in The Guardian Albert Byron is talking about a sorry lack of spirit and people allude to the fact that there's an absence of passion So even in the 60s, I guess forever, it's been a standard go-to that when your team's playing badly, it's because they don't care, they're overpaid.

8:01If only they had the passion for it, then they would be better. But Ramsey is, I mean, I think this is the strength of Ramsey. We talked about his character in the first episode, quite disconnected, doesn't really bother about other people. He's kind of unconcerned. Yeah, he says he's disappointed, but not very disappointed. then this next line I just think it's incredibly modern this is something that you know Liam Messina could have actually not Liam Messina that's a bad example he'd addressed it in weird managerial jargon but it's something that that sort of Pep Guardiola could say I think I've heard him say something very similar to this we played some brilliant football in midfield the work rate was high but we failed where it mattered most in the two penalty areas that's do you think that's a weirdly sort of modern thing to say but I always think it's a bit of a con when the manager falls back on to yeah i was watching a slightly different game because i'm on a higher level and what you don't understand is that we play some brilliant football despite our five nil defeat you know we we actually you know if you break it down on the data we look fantastic but yeah i mean i do think he i think there is another thing where coaches do have a different eye for the game than we do and we're of course focused on outcome and they are trying to see a progression and you can see but gareth fell southgate fell on this quite a lot and tuchel's done it quite recently saying well yeah but you might it might have been a bad defeat but i saw some things that were quite encouraging and i think in friendlies which obviously international teams play more consequential friendlies maybe is the best way of putting it well it doesn't matter who wins a friendly um so the process the underlying structures are the important thing so it's also interesting the press are trying to work out what's gone wrong and it's fascinating they a lot of them work out what the problem is but they draw completely the wrong conclusion from it so barham who i think is actually a pretty viscous and terribly patronizing the truth is a lot of journalists who don't know anything about football it's really obvious they don't barham i think is somebody who does know what he's talking about and he he's unconvinced by bobby charlton playing in the middle of midfield he thinks that it leaves you a little bit exposed when you showed me that formation of 4-2-4 with bobby in central midfield i just thought i mean that that can't even in the 60s that can't work yeah and the the the way ramsey looks at this isn't that bobby charlton playing the middle midfield is the wrong person he says well maybe the 4-2-4 isn't the issue yeah um and you've got brian james who again i think is actually one of the journalists who does read the game pretty well writing in the mail he says the wingers especially connolly got the ball across often enough but with no great accuracy right so maybe why don't we stop using wingers and bolts to the middle of midfield wouldn't that be a great idea yeah i mean the key thing is bobby chilton is perhaps your he is your best attacking player.

11:02How can we make this system serve him? And that is what Ramsey's going to do spectacularly well at the World Cup. Yeah, we should just remind people that Bobby Charlton had spent a lot of his early career playing on the left. He'd been a left winger when he first came through. And when he first placed for England, he plays on the left. So I think maybe this is Barham's point of, could he go back to the left? So it's not quite as a bleaker way of looking at it as it may seem from our perspective, the way we think of him as this central driving player. He had played on the left previously. So I think that's what Barham's driving at.

11:35But then there's this other issue, and this is an issue that will become hugely important come to the World Cup itself, which is that of Jimmy Greaves. So this is Donald Saunders in the Telegraph. So few goals have been scored by this side in the past year that the attack seems to suffer an anxiety neurosis when an opportunity presents itself. And he does think there's a problem with Greaves. Greaves has been ill. He's come back into the side. He's nowhere near his best. And he says, no manager could afford to banish a gift of the player from his World Cup plans, but Greaves at present is not doing the job for which he has chosen.

12:11And I think this is really interesting. This is the first time, so what we're saying, nine, ten months from a World Cup, when journalists are beginning to think maybe Greaves, and Greaves, don't forget, has scored hundreds of goals. He's obviously a brilliant player, got a great first touch. He's very popular, particularly with the London-based media. I think he's widely regarded, even more than Bobby Charlton as being England's best player. I think in some sense he probably is more naturally technically gifted than Bobby Charlton. But this is the first time that you start to see the doubts. Brian James of Versa Greaves is a pale spasmodic shadow, while Barham asks, how long can England wait for Greaves to recover his old scoring power?

12:53But nobody at this point is yet saying, maybe we don't pick Reeves maybe it doesn't matter how good he is how good he was maybe he's just not the right profile which again i think speaks to ramsey's brilliance it takes a very brave man to leave out an iconic figure we don't know as we record this we don't know whether neymar's going to go to the world cup with brazil but you know i imagine carlo might be quite hard-nosed on that decision but when you've got an iconic national figure who is just seen as great but perhaps is past his best. You're looking quizzical, Jonathan. What have I said wrong?

13:28Well, Jimmy Greaves is, at this point, is a lot younger than Neymar. So, I mean, I take the point that Jimmy Greaves at this point is only 26. Gosh, yeah. Is he? Yeah. Yeah, so he should be coming into his peak. It's not like Neymar in his mid-30s. Yeah, he's had this illness and there's a sense that he's not quite what he was before that. But people are assuming that he'll get back to his best. It's just he's had illness. He's out of form as a result. I mean, it's a common enough thing. More like a better illusion would be the Phil Foden conundrum of, again, we don't know whether Phil Foden's going, probably not.

14:00But I mean, this is a player of the season from a couple of years ago, but he's had a dip in form and surely he's a brilliant player. We need him on the team, but you know. Or maybe even Bellingham is closer. An obviously brilliant player who's played brilliantly for England recently, but is seen as somehow doesn't quite fit in the tactical structure that the coach is trying to employ. speaking of Bellingham though Spain provides a little glimmer of hope and a nice segue for England they go over to Spain to play is this a friendly game yeah it's a friendly in the December 65 so they beat Northern Ireland 2-1 at Wembley don't play particularly well in that game so nobody's nobody's really changed their opinion on the back of that and Greaves missed that game he misses this game in Spain in December 65 and Spain don't forget they won the European Championship in 1964 so they're a good side really good side and Ramsey does not pick the 4-2-4 he's given up on 4-2-4 weirdly late given he hadn't played 4-2-4 at Ipswich for a long time picks a 4-3-3 or what's described as a 4-3-3 but this team's got Joe Baker and Roger Hunt through the middle it's got Alan Ball shuttling back on the right side so Nobby Stiles says actually it's more of a 4-1-3-2 so this side you've got Joe Baker and Roger Hunt as the two forwards you've got Bobby actually Bobby Charlton moves to the left in this game you've got George Easton playing through the middle in front of Nobby Siles and Alan Ball shuttling on the right so Nobby Siles is actually more of a 4-1-3-2 and I'm not sure really how many journalists work out what Ramsey's doing still described as a 4-3-3.

15:46People see Alan Ball as being a winger. But this is the first game where this term wingless wonders that will be attached to that England side. It's the first game where that is used. It's Peter Lorenzo, journalist for the Sun, very fine tabloid journalist, the father of Matt Lorenzo, the TV presenter. But I still, even though he's come up with that term, I'm not sure how many people really work out what Ramsey's plan is. I mean, you can see the shape of the world in that 4-1-3-2. that that's kind of going to be the shape of the world cup team and i think alan ball will come to the other crucial midfielder in that conundrum later but alan ball's energy the fact that he can shuttle back and forth is game changing and spain just can't cope with it it's like it's one of those the way you describe it's one of those games where one team seems to have an extra player and spain are just kind of a good spain side of overwhelmed by england even though i think it's only 2-0 isn't it but it could have been a lot more but i mean ramsey didn't care about racking up big scores he cared about control seeing the england go ahead after eight minutes through joe baker yes um but joe baker is i mean he's a really interesting figure he was um i mean really he was scottish but by an accident of birth he he ends up playing you know he ends up playing international football for england but he played for hibbs for most of his career um and then baker suffers a a thigh injury just before half time.

17:06Norman Hunter comes on. So this is the, at this point you could use substitutes in friendly matches for injuries before half time. Norman Hunter then drops into the, in the second half, he drops into the back four alongside Jack Charlton with Bobby Moore pushing into midfield alongside Bobby Charlton and George Easton. And what this means is with ball also in the shuttling role, England suddenly have three runners coming from deep. and Spain can't pick them up. This is exactly what Ramsey done with Jimmy Ledbetter at Ipswich, except he's now doing it with three players. And it's a point I think, Patreon members will know this from our 1990 episode, where England suddenly discover playing a back five is not necessarily more defensive than playing a back four.

17:55Maybe it just means your players are coming from different positions and that can be really, really handy. So Ray Wilson says, their fullbacks didn't know who to mark. They were standing there ball watching and we ripped them to bits. And of course, this is very reminiscent of the description of how Harry Johnston, the Portsmouth in England centre-back, could not handle Nanda Hidekuti dropping off in that Hungary game when Hungary beat England 6-3 at Wembley in 1953. You pull your forwards away from the defenders and the defenders have got a problem. Yeah, they're confused. I mean, I think there's two things going on here that he's, yeah, remodelling that midfield and although Cheltenham's not playing centrally in this game, he's going to find a role for Cheltenham behind the two strikers, which is going to cause all sorts of problems for defenders at the World Cup.

18:42So Brian James writes, is that in the Express I think Brian James would have been? Male. Male, sorry, in the male. Tonight I saw the shape of England's soccer to come, but you say that most people haven't quite clocked on to it at this point, but there's a dramatic friendly now where they go to Poland. This is just before the World Cup, isn't it? It's in the spring of 66. Yeah, it's the last friendly they play before the World Cup. So, yeah, I mean, England have been really good in Spain and people in the know have started to wake up. So Jose Villalonga, the Spain coach, says England were phenomenal.

19:19Ramsey doesn't bother really to speak to the players after the game because he knows how good they've been. And Ramsey's fear now, this is a very Ramsey thing to think, is, oh, no, we've been too good too early. What do the players get overconfident? and what he then does because he's such a secretive repressed man whereas other people might be tempted to sort of go on this this victory tour before the World Cup he thinks now I'm going to put this away now we've done that I know how we're going to play in the World Cup I've worked that out and the key thing now is not to let anybody else see it so there's a handful of other friendlies in the beginning of 66 but it's this game in Khotsov in Silesia in southwestern Poland, when he finally brings out again, just one more look at it, just before the World Cup.

20:08And there's this amazing, I mean, Ramsey's not a man for rhetorical flourishes, but he announces the whole team and goes through all banks, the usual back four, Cohen, Moore, Jack Charlton and Wilson, Stiles, Charlton and Ball in midfield, Greaves and Hunt up front, and then he pauses. Yeah. Yeah, bear in mind, England have played seven games after the Spain match and not played this wingless formation since. He says, at number 11, there's a pause. He starts to stand up because he wants to get out before anybody can ask him a question. Martin Peters. And the journalists are so stunned, there's silence.

20:48And then Ramsey's gone from a room and there's upfall. What? Where's the winger? There's no winger. What are you doing? Which just shows, I mean, we said this in part, one didn't we that the revolutionary nature Ramsey is this very sort of repressed formal Englishman who in many respects conforms to the stereotype does very interesting things Martin Peets is a really industrious midfielder good technical player but but a bit like Ball is a young midfielder who's going to give you a lot of energy and I suppose the idea is that he's going to reprise a similar role to Alan Ball in covering both the wing and the midfield centre areas.

21:28Yeah, I mean, he's young. He's only 22, Martin Peters, at this point. He's very versatile. He obviously plays with Geoff Hurst at West Ham, and he's used to hitting crosses to him. Not that I think there's any guarantees that Hurst is going to play at this point. It's still Greaves and Hunt. It appears to be the first choice pair. And in this game, in Hortsoff, it is Greaves and Hunt. but I think for Ramsey he is the final piece of the jigsaw he's better on the ball he's more attack minded than Norman Hunter who would be an option for midfield but he's also more tactically aware more prepared to tuck in let Ray Wilson go outside him than Bobby Charlton or George Easton would be and in this system in this 4-1-3-2 as Nobby Stiles describes it and I think as he's right to describe it not the journalists for time describe it as that.

22:21They still seem to see it as a 4-3-3. England play really well. They only win 1-0, but that's a very Ramsey way of doing things. Control the game. You only need to score one to win it. Bobby Charlton lays in Roger Hunt for the only goal, but they control that midfield, and that's the key thing. So this is the World Cup winning side, apart from it's Greaves, not Geoff Hurst. And Martin Peters, I met towards the end of his life and interviewed him, was a lovely man and he's one of the many members of this world cup squad who sadly ended up with dementia didn't isn't he because it was obvious when I was interviewing him it was obvious to me that that he he was heading in that direction so it was very poignant time to meet this great player because it really such a good player and such a key part of this side and you quote Jeffrey Green in the Times saying that Peters was an outstanding success in this game so often when a player was in trouble tonight he looked for help and Peters was never very far away he came close to adding to his goal in Finland he's that player who I don't know so we should say this is only his second cap yeah that's the only reason to show because Finland's his first cap this is his second he's that player who just makes the team tick he's not the most glamorous player but but he just does the work that makes everybody outshine um which Alan Ball does as well and without those two players England just and without Styles sort of sweeping up at the back of the midfield England do not have the platform to win the World Cup.

23:50Yeah, and the fact they have Ball can get forward, Charlton can get forward, Peters can get forward, but they're coming from slightly deeper. Ray Wilson gets forward. They've got people coming from deep, and defences at this point find that really difficult to deal with. So Geoffrey Green carries on and says, a fluid tactical plan had England flowing back and forth like a red tide in their unfamiliar red shirts. If you think the traditional English way of playing is, get the ball, give it to the winger, the winger beats the full-back, puts it in the box. It's really predictable. But now they've got players coming from deep, across the pitch, and also from left-back.

24:25And that, for teams at the time, is really, really hard to deal with, to pick up. And it doesn't seem that complicated to us because we've seen 60 years of this. But this was really new. Is this a point where Ramsey does his famous... He's being quizzed by all the press and says, sit back gentlemen and relax and watching him win the world cup he does that on a few occasions i mean he does it right back in 1964 which is remarkable um so i think by this point he's really worried about people getting too cocky so he's he's confident but he also he doesn't really want people asking about what he's done he wants these spain and poland games to sort of drift under the radar.

25:11The Spain game, you can kind of get away with because there was that injury. And so... And no one's going to see it back in the day. Yeah, no TV coverage. Yeah, unless you had a scout there, you'd have no idea England would have paid that system. You know, a scout there, suddenly there's Norman Hunter coming on for a centre-forward and you're like, oh God, have they rearranged? Oh, I don't know. Have they just done that because of the injury? It's... That is... There's a confusion built in because of the injury. Here, it's in Hortsov. It's behind the Iron Curtain. it's not easy to get to if you you know if you're going to hide something away do it in a friendly in in in Hortsov is a is the perfect place to do it and with that thought should we go into the break and then we will start the world cup after the break in the second half where we absolutely will not be hiding away Ramsey's genius hey there it's Wayfair here where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone.

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28:46So welcome back to It Was What It Was when a second half of part two of our special on the 1966 England World Cup win and Jonathan it is the start to the World Cup, the real hero of the World Cup, Pickles, that's all been dealt with and you can listen to that on another podcast. He's found the World Cup. So there's a Gilles Grime trophy to be presented despite England having managed to lose it. But back to the football, Alf Ramsey has this great 4-1-3-2 formation. He's kept it under wraps. He's got an opening game at the World Cup. The nation's in a state of high agitation expectation. It's against Uruguay, who, of course, have pedigree in history, but it's at Wembley so England are just going to sweep them away of their bold new formation and usher in a glorious era well that does seem to be what people think which really is not justified at all I mean Uruguay have won the World Cup twice at this point they've hammered England last time they played them they've hammered Scotland in the 54 World Cup as well beat them 7-1 so this is not as good a Uruguay side as the sides of the early 50s and certainly not as good as the side of the 20s and 1930 but still there's absolutely no reason for anybody to think England will have an easy game here it's very bizarre for the English public and English press to sort of overrate their side and dismiss a foreign nation in a group stage game at a World Cup I mean that that never happens these days so yeah I judge our 1960s counterparts and go what were you thinking so this is Ramsey so he's worked out how he's going to win the World Cup and so the start of the World Cup he doesn't do it he's going to hide it away a little bit longer I mean that is quite smart although it might have cost him had he lost against you yeah you've got Greaves and Hunt together up front and John Connolly from Burnley comes in on the left side so some people say Ramsey was just sort of feeling his way through the tournament and he didn't quite know how he was going to play and it's like Bobby Robson in 86 and 1990, sort of changing formation mid-tournament.

30:56No, I'm certain he knows what he's doing. This is such a, why would he hide it away, bring it out in, sorry, in Hortsov? And then, you know, it's been so effective playing that 4-1-3-2 twice he's done it. If he wanted to play here, he'd have played it. He was doing it on purpose. He was nowhere traditional side with playing with the swinger. And England actually play pretty well. They dominate the ball. They have 16 corners. They have 15 shots, but they can't score. They draw nil-nil. Ramsey's not particularly surprised. He's not even that disappointed. He's in his xenophobic worldview. He knows what South Americans are like, and that is nasty.

31:35They cheat. They'll do anything to win a game. So to get out of a game without a major diplomatic incident and without losing, that's fine. And does this also show the value, as you talked about in part one, of going to Munde Lito? and he's really broadened the side's knowledge of playing against South American sides. Obviously, that's a key part of the World Cup. So he's got a specific plan for Uruguay, which is probably honed because of his experience of South American football. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, yeah, they played Argentina and Brazil in the Mundialito rather than Uruguay, but I think Ramsey's logic...

32:09They're parallels. Yeah, I'm sure Ramsey on some level just thinks all Latins are the same, essentially. I think it's partly what he thinks. but also there are clear actual parallels between how Uruguay and Argentina play football he knows they'll be very cynical he knows you can't really dribble against him because you're just going to get fouled you've got to keep the ball away from him but obviously the public hate this in the mail Brian James speaks of Uruguay as unambitious and uncompromising which I think is probably true I think if you're Uruguay why would you not just go and sit deep and it's the opening game of the World Cup it's at Wembley, it's against the hosts a draw is fine for you but the headline I think is what really sort of gives you a sense of the mood of a nation after this game angry, baffled, goalless England yeah well speaking as a former journalist I can imagine Brian James going I didn't write the headline if you read my match report it's quite considered and then someone back at her desk has just gone right this lot's rubbish but there's another male journalist very much in the tone of the mail.

33:15I love that you've quoted J.L. Manning. Tell us about J.L. Manning and what his diagnosis of the problem is. J.L. Manning is amazing. I don't think there's any figure quite like him now. So, well, okay. But he's, the photo byline, he looks like a very stern man, probably aged around 60 with big glasses. He's actually 42. too. But he's got this kind of old man, fussy, angry shtick. And he's got his tone. He's not going to change it. Completely alien to the mail of today. Can I just say that when snoods were a thing, that the editor of the Daily Mail launched a campaign against snoods because it was sort of damaging the English game.

34:05Anyway. So he's, I mean, he's perpetually disgruntled. And, you know, he's not a man to kind of think maybe this is clever tactics. So he says, even the commentators are going all foreign. Just thinking about football, that's a terrible sort of foreign affectation. They talk down to us as if football was a new television panel game, which the natives are seeing for the first time. You know the clever, clever fellows I refer to. There are those who say, arrogantly, of course, some people thought it was dull, but we in the game were fascinated by the tactics. It's a great pity football crowds are not better educated.

34:44They would enjoy it so much more. Educated? About football? To understand football requires the intellectuality of the gnat. As a man who's devoted his life to writing about football tactics, I'm sure you concur with, what's his name? LL? JL Manning. JL Manning. I was going to say LL Cool J for a second there. That's a different personality, I think. Different personality altogether. together um the only thing i would sympathize with him on is it does annoy me when there's a tactical nil nil and people get i mean sometimes they are fascinating but normally they're not and there's a lot of affectation around that oh yes but you were you know normally it's a bad game what i think's fascinating here is only yeah we alluded to it in the first half without that ramsey quote about having to be better in both boxes it sort of feels like the beginning of modern football discourse because i don't think anybody would write this quite in the same way today oh but you see echoes of that absolutely football over intellectualized like yes oh everybody's talking about trick artistas and fantasistas and registers well i actually think that attitude's more common when if you talk about data you would absolutely see that written about data in football today oh your dean saunders yeah in my day we just called it chasing the ball you're just pressing you know it's the same thing it's hating jargon and then to some extent i sort to sympathize that I think there are people who use jargon to make what they're saying words that are used which I don't understand in football yeah there's definitely people who use that jargon to make themselves make it look like they're saying more complicated things than they actually are um but I think Manning is is a particular type I mean we'll keep quoting him because he has a great tournament he's very very quotable but I think actually the the person who gets this right is Ray Wilson.

36:32Ray Wilson's a very considered, very good commenter on football. And he says, and he's very, he's quite sympathetic. He says, in 1966, the supporters have been weaned on the football just after the war, where everything was open. Crowds didn't understand when teams came to defend. So he sort of, he understands why the crowds are reacting as they do, while also saying that they were wrong. Yeah. And it is also true that certainly these days in a televisual tournament you get a lot of people watching football who don't normally watch football so you don't necessarily understand that it's hard to be I mean I'm not saying I'm not trying to defend England's performance against Slovakia and Slovenia in the Euros but you know it's it's not quite the walkover you think it's going to be yeah you know in Euro 2024 give us Manning's great quote what he concludes though because I think that it's worthy of airing the final line of his column I am willing to bet that a team which plays this rubbish will not survive the quarterfinals.

37:31But I think that's a test though, isn't it? Don't make huge pronouncements unless you're going to qualify them. Well, of course, the previous year, the 65-Effy Cup final, which if you watch it now, it's a perfectly decent game, which is won 2-1 by Liverpool against Leeds. And it's Peter Wilson in the mirror. And every time thinks it's a desperately boring game. it looks totally normal to our eyes now it's just both teams aren't going hell for them in attack they're considered, they're passing the ball sideways at times they're taking the pace out of the game on occasions but this to a footballing public who see maybe half a dozen games a year if that, this looks much slower than the Matthews final or the great games of the 50s, the great FA Cup finals of myth and Peter Wilson says yeah I'm told that if we had to survive the rigours of the World Cup this system of football is how we're going to have to play if that is true I want no part of it shall we say that by the final of this World Cup Peter Wilson's tone has changed quite significantly does he want a part of it?

38:47we shall find out in part three but the other group games against Mexico I mean to be fair they're toiling a bit against Mexico aren't they and they're kind of saved by just one of the great Bobby Charlton goals. Yeah, and it occurs to me this is actually quite like Argentina in 2022. I mean, England obviously drew rather than losing the opening game. And then it's the second game, which was against Mexico for Argentina, I think. I think so, yeah. Yeah, that suddenly there's a moment of magic and the thing opens up and everybody relaxes. But yeah, it's seven minutes before halftime. It's still nil-nil.

39:24I think the crowd are getting pretty restive and then well Jack Charlton always says it was him that he goes to assist that was one of his sort of set pieces in his afternoon speaking where he sort of jokingly takes credit for his brother's brilliant goal actually not even that's true it's Roger Hunt he pokes it into Bobby Charlton's path he sort of surges forward and Bobby Charlton he was hugely influenced by Jimmy Murphy the great assistant to Matt Buzby Manchester United and Jimmy Murphy really is the man who takes the raw material of Bobby Charlton and turns him into the footballer he becomes and they would do these endless sessions when Bobby's in his late teens where one of the things they do would be Jimmy Murphy would toss the ball for him and you have to chase it one touch and then if the ball's in front of him just hit it as hard as you can less than eight feet from the ground and don't aim it keep it down, hit it hard and you don't have to put it in the corner.

40:24A keeper's not going to save it if you hit it well enough. And this is what happens. Bobby Charlton moves forward. Jimmy Murphy always said, if the space is funny, just keep going. No point doing anything else. And Bobby Charlton keeps going from the centre circle. And then he's just, you can see, he's almost waiting for the ball to sit right in the stride. And when it does, and he's about, what, 25 yards out. And it's actually, if you look at it, it's pretty much exactly the same spot that Jackie Milburn scored his famous goal in the cup final in 51. Jackie Milburn, of course, being the cousin of Bobby Charlton's mother.

41:01So you're part of the same family. And he hits this shot from 25 yards. And just like Jackie Milburn shot in the 51 FA Cup final, it flies in the top corner. A keeper's got no chance, Ignacio Caldon. It's an absolutely brilliant goal. I think it's the best goal in Bobby Charlton's career. I think it's one of the great England goals of all time. But it's also a crucial goal for this campaign because England suddenly can relax. They're not going to draw a second game nil-nil. Bobby Charlton runs off. It's a mad celebration. He admits later, he just sort of had this euphoria, just joy at playing.

41:37Bobby Charlton was not a particularly joyful man. Has this joy at playing and being part of this occasion. And he admits he's absolutely exhausted by the end of a celebration. but I think you can see the release that he feels and the whole team feels in that so I've got my quick name check for a great England goal that this that this ranks alongside Gazzo in 96 Bellingham in the year 2024 maybe Platt in 1990 Michael Owen against Argentina in 98 Michael Owen against Argentina is that the top 5 Sheringham against the Dutch in 96 oh yeah that's a good one that's like Shearer against the Dutch in 96 Sheringham lays him off doesn't he yeah the Brookings goal in Budapest against Hungary in 81.

42:16Yeah, but it's not quite so consequential, is it? Yeah, I mean, Bobby Charlton says it was the loveliest, most exhilarating feeling I ever had as a footballer, which given what he achieved in his career is something. There's going to be another good Charlton goal though. We're saving that for part three, but wait for that. So France is an easy game. I think it might actually be part four. I don't know if you looked at the script going forward. Part three spends quite a lot of time talking about Argentina, but anyway, that's something to look forward to. Okay, later on in the series. England are in control but they finally get the second 15 minutes from time it's a really nice pass from Bobby Charlton to Greaves on the left side of the box his shot's saved but Roger Hunt knocks in the rebound and I think you see the importance of Bobby Charlton there not scoring goals but also setting goals up it means they've got three points from the two games a win and a draw Uruguay who I think are pretty clearly the second best team in the group they only draw in Mexico in their last game.

43:16And what that means is that England only need to draw against France to guarantee qualification of the group and a quarterfinal at Wembley, which is key. And that will be against the runners-up from the group that features West Germany, Argentina and Spain. Hi, this is Jonathan Fields, host of The Good Life Project. What if your home could welcome you at the door, energize your kitchen and calm your bedroom all automatically? With Pura's family of smart diffusers, you can scent every space perfectly. Choose premium, clean fragrances, adjust the intensity, and set schedules right from your phone.

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44:31Hey, Pablo Torre here. As a sports journalist, I've covered global sports for many years now. And there is one thing that I can promise you. Nothing compares to the World Cup. And this time, it is even better thanks to McDonald's. You have the chance to take home one of nine legendary cups when you order the FIFA World Cup meal. The cups feature some of the biggest legends in football, like David Beckham, Terry Henry, and Ronaldinho, Christian Pulisic, Lamine Yamal, and Alfonso Davies. Right now, get one of nine legendary cups when you order the FIFA World Cup meal only at McDonald's. At participating McDonald's, only for a limited time, while supplies last, all rights reserved, Copyright 2026.

45:10McDonald's at the FIFA World Cup 2026.

45:17And France have to win this game to qualify. So they're going to be a lot more open. So suddenly, rather than having Uruguay sitting deep in the opening game, you've got a team that are coming out to play. So it's going to be a lot easier. And France aren't the powerhouse that obviously they will be in the late 90s and sort of subsequently in this century. So England are expected to win. And they do win 2-0, two Roger Hunt goals. It's a fairly comfortable... It feels like all the angst of that Uruguay game has kind of been dissipated in Bobby's Mexico goal. And this feels like, OK, we're now getting somewhere.

45:53Yeah, and we should say as well that Terry Payne played on the wing in the second group game, in the game against Mexico. and Ian Callaghan plays on the wing in the game against France. So he's still playing, still persisting with wingers at this point. Yes, and England play a different winger in each of the three games, but they do play a winger. And sometimes it's Ball who sits out, sometimes it's Peters who sits out, but it's still basically this asymmetrical 4-3-3, which people think is the orthodoxy. I mean, England actually should win this game much more easily. Bobby Charlton has a goal we've got offside that's not offside.

46:30the first goal comes off to Jack Charlton's headed against the post it's a pretty straightforward win it's 2-0 but it's 2-0 2-0 like Liverpool in their championship winning season on the slot where they're completely controlling the game at 2-0 and you think he is hiding his grand master plan for the latter stages and the fact that there's different wingers every time does suggest that he's got something out of his sleeve, it's not like he's got a settled side and he knows who the winger is. Well I think what he's doing is he's keeping Ball and Peters. Fresh. He's not tying one of them out, but he's keeping them both in games.

47:05Like the old wingback. With fullbacks now, you tend to try and rest them because you're asking so much of them and he knows he's going to have to ask a lot of running from Ball and Peters. Yeah, exactly. So England are in a really good place here, but there's two shadows. So the first one is the behaviour of Nobby Stiles, who has a bad 20 minutes in the second half. I'm laughing it's not good I mean I shouldn't laugh it's not funny but he punches Robert Urban he thrusts an arm into Bernard Bosquier and he breaks Jackie Simon's leg with a really horrible wild late foul for you know he only gets a you know a booking for those three offenses and to be honest any of them could have been a sending off and these days you'd be out of the tournament probably because the television coverage would probably, well, certainly it'd be a two, three game ban, I'd imagine.

48:02Yeah, so the FA are embarrassed by this. I mean, the French understandably upset me. The foul on Simon is disgraceful. And the FA say to Ramsey, yeah, I'm not sure, do you have to pick Styles? Maybe, maybe, that'd be nice. You know, after he's played like that, maybe you just leave him out. And Ramsey's, well, okay, then I resign. I'm picking styles or I go. And the FA, okay. But again, that shows Ramsey's stubbornness, his strength of will, his single-mindedness. It also shows how the FA are more concerned about the perception of the team than winning games, that they're focusing more on the ambassadorial role, I think.

48:48I don't completely blame them for that because that is part of your role as a football association. I mean, primarily you want to win games, but if someone behaving that badly, you would kind of think, actually. But I do also think the balance has to be the manager has to be empowered to manage. And, you know, he has to take the decisions that he thinks are best for the team. And he has to be focused on winning the game. So you cannot, as a manager, be worrying about unless something egregious happens that is outside the law, off the pitch, then I think things get different but on the pitch if someone's qualified to play you don't start taking decisions like oh I might drop him because he was being a bit bad during the game yeah I mean I can't maybe there are examples I can't think of any example of a manager or a football association voluntarily leaving out one of their key players because of a an on-field offense no I mean we obviously the famous John Terry example of being found guilty for racism by an FA inquiry precipitates Fabio Capello's departure from the job because he thinks, well, similarly, like Ramsey, different circumstances, obviously.

49:57Well, you don't tell me who to pick. I'll decide who to pick. Yeah, I mean, I just don't think there are comparable examples for on-field. But the FA was very clear. The FA chairman at the time, David Bernstein, was very clear that you cannot... I think it was an issue over whether he was captain rather than he was... Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you cannot be England captain, do that. After his ban, he was going to be available to be picked. It's just that he couldn't be captain. And Fabio thought that was a gross intervention into his domain, I suppose. So the FA, the Football Associations do have to think more ambassadourally.

50:33I mean, there is more at stake than just the result. But I think it's probably right in this circumstance for the manager to push back. But it is, you know, I mean, as you say, Stiles' behaviour is very bad. and really indefensible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. But it actually doesn't attract as much attention as the other shadow, which is the fact that Jimmy Greaves has received a gash on his shin that requires three stitches and that's going to keep him out for the quarterfinal. So Hurst comes in, obviously, for that quarterfinal, never loses his place.

51:11But Greaves would have been available for the semifinal. So we'll come to that selection decision when we get to the semi. But you sort of feel that the injury does Ramsey a favour because this Greaves question has been dragging on that I think people are starting to doubt. He is a brilliant forward. He is technically our best player. He is this really elegant and graceful goal scorer. And more besides. I think people outside London wonder whether London journalists overrate him. And this was, I mean, you hear this said today. It's obviously way more significant in those days where you don't have mass TV coverage.

51:50So you're very reliant on the local journalists to give an accurate assessment of a player. And we see today that journalists who watch a player week in, week out, tend to be more sympathetic to them than those who see them only occasionally. okay do you generally think that it does do him a favor or would he not have continued with greaves in the next match had he been fit i mean it seems weird saying this we all know that jeff is going to be a hero of the 1966 world cup but but it is a massive sliding doors moment because would he actually have got his chance i'm not sure he would i think the fact that Ramsey plays him in that game in Kadavica.

52:36He plays him in... Sorry, in Hrotsov. I think the fact Ramsey plays him in that game in Hrotsov, the fact he plays Greaves in the three group games, I think he thinks Greaves is the right man. I mean, Greaves... Greaves is a better finisher than... I mean, we've never watched him, but everybody says Greaves obviously was a better finisher than Hurst. He got 43 goals and 51 internationals. That's a great record. That's before the World Cup. So I think it's been apparent really for six months, seven months, that Greaves is going to be a fault line. There is going to be a decision that has to be made.

53:11So after that Vatuno win in Spain in the December of 65, the game when Peter Lorenzo coins his term wingless wonders, he describes the victory that night. And this Greaves, don't forget, didn't play. He says, it's a thrilling victory, supreme in his tactical brilliance and mastery. And yet the very next day, he's arguing, the headline is, England must recall luxury goal ace as soon as he's fit again. So he hasn't been dropped. He just hasn't played because he's not fit. Others, though, are less convinced. And Peter Lorenzo, of course, was a London-based journalist and maybe was more inclined to be sympathetic to Greaves and others.

53:49So Geoffrey Green, now Geoffrey Green was, at the time, the great doyen of English football writers writing in the Times. And so after the game in Poland, so the 1-0 win just before the World Cup where Greaves does play, Green writes, Greaves continues to follow his own infuriating path. And I think you can see him really struggling to reconcile what he's seen, what he knows to be true, with the received wisdom of English football. And he's not quite confident enough to go against that received wisdom, but the doubt is there. And the person I think is really interesting in this is Bobby Charlton.

54:33And Bobby Charlton is somebody who absolutely believes football is about individuals. He thought Johnny Haynes should have been in the team in 63 and 64. He thinks you just put your best players in there and then you work it out. He's not a systems man. But even he's having doubts about Greaves. If Greaves wasn't scoring, and this is in his autobiography, because he's obviously written slightly later, but he said if Greaves wasn't scoring, his contribution tended to be not much more than the ornamental. And so Dave Bowler, who wrote a really, really good biography of Alpharamsey, he says for him, the question for Ramsey is, and there was a sort of underwhelming win over Denmark where Hurst comes in for Greaves.

55:21He's after that game. So the question is, it's not whether Greaves should be partnered by Hunt or Hurst, but whether it should be Hunt with Hurst or with Greaves. And I think nobody's really appreciated that, that it's a choice between Greaves and Hurst. It's not between Hurst and Hunt to partner Greaves. The male, after the draw against Uruguay, the opening game of that World Cup, They're worried enough by Greaves to say, is it worth bringing in Hurst to replace Hunt? So they're still thinking on those lines. The idea of dropping Greaves is not there. And that's kind of a bizarre thing to say because at that point, Roger Hunt's only played 14 times for England and he scored 12 goals.

56:04So he feels a much, much more obvious selection than Greaves. But the myth of Greaves, the legend of Greaves is so great, people can't consider dropping him. You do see this in teams, don't you? Where you just go, this guy, in national teams particularly, this guy is so extraordinary, he can't get rid of him. I think Liverpool had a bit of that with Mo Salah this season and eventually just decided, well, we're going to have to drop him. But I think, I agree with you, Bobby's comments are, I mean, that's really damning what he says. It's not very, he's not putting the boot in, but he is in an understated way.

56:38And that just tells you that this is a player who doesn't contribute to the XI. And in modern football, basically you can argue, okay, bold statement coming up, but I mean, this is one of the first modern football teams where teamwork in the system is going to be really, really important. You know, maybe you can't have the luxury player anymore. Yeah, I think that is true. And I think that's something that journalists in particular at the time are struggling to deal with. We love star names. We love luxury players. This is true today. hey, we still want Jack Grealish in the England team a few years ago.

57:16And actually, he did rather well on occasions. But there was a period of his game where he didn't track back at all. But Grealish is a great figure and a great charismatic figure. And you want to write about him. Well, I think that actually the closest comparison, obviously, they're different types of player. But if you remember before Euro 96, Alan Shearer went and he was 13 England games without scoring. And nobody's actually saying, should it be Sheringham and Les Ferdinand? I should be showing him and Andy Cole everybody thinks it should be Shearer just come on Alan score some goals which thankfully he is such a team player that yeah you just want the goal scoring boots back on again I mean maybe Kane in Euro 2024 when it's obvious he was injured and it was very hard to drop Harry Kane because you know he's your best finisher but it's clear he wasn't able to do the things that a centre forward needed to do and I think Southgate was reasonably brave even pull him off at the times when he did, but actually maybe his argument, don't start him in the final.

58:16Yeah, or take him off earlier. But yeah, so let's see in part three, what happens when Jeff Hurst does come in for Jimmy Greaves? Does it work? Can England get past a rugged Argentina? Find out next week, unless you're a Patreon subscriber where you can binge all four episodes in this series straight away anybody can sign up to the patreon it's not just about getting instant access it's not just about ad-free listening you get welcome wednesdays you get nostalgic rambles through old shoots you get bonus episodes and lots lots more i don't know if you're a member rob i know i am and i think it's great value i am a member it is great value do sign up and yes um do get instant access to this fascinating 1966 um story if you can't wait sign up straight away now and do join us if you are going to not sign up and be curmudgeonly like that.

59:12And we'll join us next week when we will have the next episode.

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