All You Need To Know About The Play-Offs With Rooney, Coady & Mullin | Fan Debate EFL Special Part 1

0:00This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Have you looked at your utility bill recently and thought, how is it this high? You're not the only one. Something that we would hear often was, I couldn't pay my power bill. I'm no longer turning on my AC. Rising energy costs can feel inevitable, but voters have more power than they think.

0:41Listen to good things from Lemonada Media to hear how communities are fighting back for energy affordability. Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. And whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary Football Weekly podcast, The Guardian.

1:13Bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market. Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while cod or responsibly farmed. At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie, and you can't go wrong with a ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market. Who's going to win it? Southampton?

1:50You've got to put your hand up, mate. Come on. Millwall or Millwall. Whenever I think of going to Millwall, I hate the thought of it. I don't know if there's any Wednesday fans in here, but they've had the most embarrassing season ever. Can I just say thank you for having a stone-cold legend on the sofa? That's Paul, sorry Cody. The next day I go in and I'm the manager. For me, it was a bit strange, obviously, going into the first team meeting and the players are like, what do we call you? We think he's an absolute genius. Like, how could anyone not? People say it's not a fairy tale, but it is for the fans especially.

2:18People will say, oh, it's a great opportunity to just level ourselves in the league for another season and stuff like that. Nonsense, everyone wants to go up. You're going to miss that bus, do you know what I mean? You don't want to miss that bus when it comes. The playoffs have been, I think they're basically the best invention in sport. It's the best system in the world, the way we do it. I don't like playoffs. You're on the wrong show, pal. Seriously, do you want to go? Cos, like, you brought absolutely nothing to the party, mate. I'm honest with you.

2:46Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. Today we've got an EFL special for you. If you're neutral, we love it. If you're involved, we don't love it so much. Playoffs, oof. I am the artist formerly known as Fenners. Pleased to be joined by the legend that is Wayne Rooney, Connor Cody and Paul Mullin. And across from us, some fans who are set to enjoy. I'm not sure whether they're going to enjoy it or endure it. The emotional rollercoaster that the playoffs offer in their 40 years. Can you believe the playoffs have been going for 40 years? Is it, yeah? Yeah, 40 years.

3:22Before we start, how are you, the busiest man? The busiest man in football, TV? I'm not having good. Went to the Arsenal game tonight. Really enjoyed it. It's the best atmosphere I've seen at the Emirates. We played in the semi-final, I don't know how many years ago it was with Man United, and the atmosphere was nowhere near what it was tonight. So, I've really enjoyed it. So they can do it? Yeah. Yeah. That's for another show, isn't it? That's for another show. Yeah, they can. Two good teams, aren't they? Them and PSG, so I can go either way then. Connor, how are you, mate? Last time I spoke to you, you were just, I think you were in hospital, you were just recovering.

4:03Yeah. Yeah, I was, yeah. I got a bit of concussion in one of the games, and I, against Watford. But I'm all good. I had a good second half of the season. Really enjoyed Charlton, really enjoyed the division and what we needed to do. So it was all right, yeah, but I'm going to enjoy spending a bit of time with the family now. Good stuff. Going out to the States? No, I'm not. I'm going to do a little bit at the end of June, obviously, on the game. So I'm not going out there. I'll do it for Manchester. But I'm looking forward to it. I think we all are, aren't we? Absolutely, mate. Absolutely. Paul, what are you doing here?

4:31Because, you know, you could potentially be involved. It's a bit harsh. LAUGHTER The playoffs just weekend. He just turned up for Bradford, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, got a... Gaffer know you're in, yeah. No, I don't think he does know me, to be honest. But yeah, big playoff games. Well, if he watches YouTube or whatever. But yeah, big playoff games coming up. At Bradford, a tough clash with Bolton. But as you know, the playoffs are a lottery and they've done really well this season at Bradford. And yeah, going into them, I'm quite confident. As I touched upon a moment ago, if you're a neutral, it's fantastic in the playoffs.

5:09Yeah, yeah, to watch. I've never actually been involved. I think it's quite... She's asked me what I'm doing here. Yeah, right there. So, no, I've never been involved in playoffs. I nearly did in the States. We missed out, I think, by a point in the playoffs over there. but and then obviously I've been related with Derby. So, but yeah, the playoffs are, it's incredible really, I think. The only thing I don't like is the waiting between, it seems a bit long. I think it should go straight into it. Oh, OK, as in when the season's finished? Yeah, it just seems like so long, it should just go straight into it.

5:48But, you know, the grades obviously, if you're involved in it, it must be incredible. Yeah. You've played in the playoffs. No, I've not been in the playoffs, no. I've been lucky enough to go up as first twice, which has been good, which has been incredible. But I'm the same as you. I love them. Wayne put a bit of a dampening on it there, didn't he? But I love them. I love everything about them. I love watching them. I love the jeopardy of the ones who finish in sixth and all that sort of stuff can still go up. It must be so hard to lose that final. Ah, yeah. You think you've done really well, rather than you're so close, but then you lose the final.

6:28To recover from that must be so difficult. A lot of teams don't, do they? Lake Dorian this year has struggled massively. They made the playoffs. It was the final he made last year. They played Stockport in the semis, remember that. But yeah, and then this year, obviously, they've struggled to do it again, which probably happens with a lot of the NFL teams, especially a bit lower down, because he then tries to change the team or whatever. The best players sometimes move on and he's struggling in that aspect. That was a big thing with Derby, when I went into Derby. He lost the play-off final to Villa and it was almost like whoever went up could invest more money into the club and whoever didn't was going to struggle massively financially.

7:07So it's a massive, massive game. Whoever wins it, obviously, but whoever loses it, so have them. Don't answer this now, but I need you to think of your favourite playoff moments and I'll be coming, and that's for everyone as well. I'm going to be coming back to you on those later on. Right, should we crack on with today's episode? I think we should. Callum Fowler, can you give us an overall picture of the championship this season? He's been relegated, he's got automatics, the playoffs. How long have you got? You just crack on there. When I do that, just stop. All right. I don't know if there's any Wednesday fans in here.

7:41I hope there's not. But they've had the most embarrassing season ever, finishing on zero. So that was a good lap for me. And then Leicester have gone down as well. I think they're going down for the second time ever to League One. I don't think they've been there many times. Oxford have gone down as well. I think they're unlucky as well, as unlucky as you can be for finishing third bottom. Because they picked up towards end. West Brom, fourth bottom, another massive club down there. But Morrison's done well since he's gone in. A couple of big sides that picked up near end as well. Norwich look good for next season.

8:08Derby and Wrexham as well, obviously. Who missed out, look good sides. But then all getting there, we have a chance for embargo, which is good. Southampton, Middlesbrough, Millwall, all good teams. And then Ipswich have bounced straight back up and Coventry, River Simon is a runaway with. Momentum is just key, isn't it? And I suppose it's like the timing and you don't want to peak too early in the season. Like you look at Coventry, the way in which they, it looked like they were struggling at that period where they couldn't get a result and then managed to find it again. And it's like, how hard is it to keep that momentum and kind of time it?

8:44It's so difficult when you're in the Championship. You know, because obviously the teams who come down have got bigger and better squads and better players, if you like, but then when you're in the middle of it and you're trying to get the players ready, you know, for Saturday, Tuesday, constantly, and you pick up a few injuries, but then when you do get that momentum, you see Michael Carrick get it with Middlesbrough when he first went in there. And then even in League One now, Tom Cleverley, was they were in the bottom three, I think, around Christmas time and then just finished outside the play-off.

9:17So just to get that momentum and confidence, really, and it happens the other way as well. When you lose a couple of games, then you're looking at the fixtures, you're thinking, when are we next going to win a game? So to get that momentum, it's about timing. You see it, you still know as well. The season really starts with 10 games to go. That's when even if you're mid-table with 10 games to go and you can go on the run, you could quite easily end up in the play-off. So, it's all about timing, I think. One team who hasn't made it to the Premier League from the south of the Thames, Millwall. Dan, welcome to the show.

9:53Cheers, Fennan. See you, you've obviously been chatting to Ali about the blue zip-up today. Very smart, lads. So, tell us a little bit about your love for Millwall, initially. It's been passed down to me, as many Millwall fans have been through generations. My dad was a Millwall fan. His dad was a Millwall fan. And I know Millwall's not really a team that you choose. Although lately there has been a lot of that, especially from sort of Eastern Europe, et cetera. But it's just something that's sort of handed down through generations, you know? And it continues now with me onto my son, who will be getting the train up tomorrow to meet me at Hull.

10:31Yeah. And always the underdog, but we're better as an underdog, but I'm not so sure now. I think we're here on merit. Right, yeah. And we've been up, like Wayne was just saying, it's hard to time the run away. We've been up there or thereabouts all season. We're a good side, we're hard to beat. Maybe not always the most technical, but we can seem to get things over the line now that maybe before we couldn't, you know? How exciting has it been for you this season? Yeah, it's been a brilliant season, especially our away form. I think we've got the best away form in the league. Some really good away days.

11:03Funny enough, our home form, it's always been our mills, the den is a fortress. it's where we've struggled really is our home form to an extent and our away form's been been really good but we've had some great away days really good away days and it's exciting and now I never thought we'd make the top two I always thought it would be Ipswich and Cov but I was never really looking down but now the reality of the playoffs are here I was a bit like but we've got nothing to lose we haven't been in the championship playoffs for it's 26 years 2002 against Birmingham Wow and Ali EFL expert but Millwall got Hull.

11:39Tell us a little bit about how you think that's going to pan out. I mean, it's amazing that one of these two teams will be playing in the playoff final because Millwall's season's been incredible, but you could say the same for Hull City for sure. They only stayed up on goal difference last season. They went into the summer transfer embargo, meaning only free transfers and loans, and they did seriously well under those conditions because Olly McBurnie signed on a free, been one of the best players in the league, certainly the best free transfer over the summer did well in the loan market joe galhard in particular they've got some championship experience in the squad mcburney being one but obviously like john lundstrom john egan experienced heads i think that's helped a lot and the manager needs i mentioned sergey yakirovic his first time managing in english football very good record in bosnia croatia turkey and he just hit the ground running they were third i think christmas time amazing start to the season played really exciting attacking football did slow down a bit in the second half of the season, ended up slipping all the way out of the top six and getting in on final day.

12:38So they're not the best defensively. I think that's fair to say. They've got some really exciting attacking players, McBurney, Gellhart, Miller off the left, Balumi, number 10. They're a very exciting team to watch. I think it'll be a really entertaining semi-final against Millwall. Two open teams. Neither of them really want the ball. They just want to attack in transition quickly and they know how to do it effectively. That's why they finished in the playoffs. So Dan if you get through Southampton or Borough who would you who would you fancy Who would I prefer Yeah I mean to be the best you've got to beat the best haven't you and we've took four points off Southampton this season three off Borough they beat us at ours we beat them at theirs so yeah but if I'm honest I would like to avoid Southampton not that I'm saying we couldn't beat them but we beat Borough very recently at the Riverside went back there and beat them 2-1.

13:32Josh Coburn, their ex-player, scored two against them. So if Borrower could do the job on Southampton, I wouldn't be complaining. And Conor, you've faced both Millwall and Hull this season. What's your take? I agree with the guys, to be honest with you. I think they're both really good sides. Both different for me, I think. We played against Hull not long ago, a couple of weeks ago, for Charlton, and we had a good result on the day. But I think they nailed it with the spine of the team, if I'm being honest. I think the spine of the team is really championship-ready. I think it has been all season.

14:01You mentioned Balumi. I thought Balumi was top against us. He came on at half-time and I thought, proper, proper player. So I thought he was really good. Millwall are Millwall. That's all I can say. We all know what Millwall are. I don't mean that in a bad way at all. I would never ever say it like that. But Millwall are really good at what they do. And I think they have been all season. We played them early on when I was at Wrexham. And we managed to beat them at their place. So it's funny that you mentioned kind of the home form. Because whenever I think of going to Millwall, I hate the thought of it.

14:26That's the God's honest truth. I hate the thought of it because you're there for a real, real tough 95 minutes. It's going to be tough and you know that. We went there with Rex and we actually played really well and we got a 2-0 win. But I fully respect the fact that they're both in the playoffs. I fully respect what Millwall have done because I think they've been brilliant at what they do. That's the biggest compliment I can pay them, to be honest with you, is that they are good at being Millwall. I think it's the best Millwall team we've seen in a long time for me. I don't know if you agree with that as well.

14:47Yeah, definitely. Some real good players. First time in a long time where you've got the likes of Aziz maybe going on deadline day and Everton are looking at Kramer. We've never really been to that sort of level before. We lost Fleming to Burnley recently, SA to Palace. Big Coop's got to take a lot of credit though, hasn't he? Big Cooper at the back. He's got to take a lot of credit for how long he's been there. Do you know what? A lot of our fans are like, he's done, he's no good no more. But he's ended up a player of year this season. Because what it is, it's a new way of playing at the back, etc.

15:20Like you said, we're very good at what we do. Cooper is an old school centre-back, a dying breed almost. But he's been absolutely phenomenal this season. And rightly so, got Player of the Year.

15:53All things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

16:24national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Have you looked at your utility bill recently and thought, how is it this high?

16:57You're not the only one. Something that we would hear often was, I couldn't pay my power bill. I'm no longer turning on my AC. Rising energy costs can feel inevitable, but voters have more power than they think. Listen to good things from Lemonada Media to hear how communities are fighting back for energy affordability. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market. Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while caught or responsibly farmed.

17:36At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie, and you can't go wrong with a ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market.

17:57Martin, let's chat a bit about the Saints. Where did you find his manager? He's done amazing, hasn't he? He'd come in from Germany. No one knew anything about him. He was working with the under-21s. He wasn't even in Will Steele's coaching staff. We didn't know anything about him. Will Steele had a stinker to start the season, didn't he? We'd won two games. Just couldn't get any tune out of the players. just couldn't get us going. And Eckert coming in as the caretaking manager and got an instant impact out of the players. He got players in positions. He got a bit of togetherness in the dressing room, which I think they were lacking a bit.

18:29There's a massive hangover from last season. We went down as one of the worst Premier League teams ever. So it was, the club felt really scarred. I think the fans were. I think the people inside the club were. And when you ever start like that, when you spent a fair bit of money as well, it was, yeah, we're a bit alarmed. When he took over, we were 21st. We were three points from the drop. We could have been at Leicester. Yeah, what were your feelings when he took over? Were you just thinking this is going to be a temporary appointment and we're going to get someone else in? Yeah, I think we thought it was going to be a temporary appointment and then we went to QPR, tough place to go, got a result.

19:05We dug out a result. The players really played for him. Cienzo scored a great goal on the night. It was superb. He's been one of our best players all year. And we went home, played Sheffield Wednesday, were decent. and we had an international break and we all thought there'd be an appointment. There was talks of different managers. I think Michael Carrick was somebody that was spoken about a fair bit. They stuck with him. The technical director, Johannes Spors, he knew him well from his time in Germany and he forced to keep him in. We come back after that international break. We went to Charlton and we were really good that day.

19:38We were really, really good. Ripped him to shreds in the first half and Finna's hours on the day was just immense. and all of a sudden the team had structure and we've never really, well, a little wobble over Christmas, but since that we've been really, really good. Yeah, I was at that game and you were phenomenal. It was like knife through butter. Adam Armstrong was great that day. He was superb. We let him go in January. He was our top goal scorer. And when he went, we were like, hold on a minute, we're letting the man that scored at Wembley in the playoff final last time go. And we've never spoke about him since.

20:11Cole Aaron's coming up front. He's been phenomenal. and the goalkeeper we've brought in from Bayern Munich Daniel Perez he is immense so so good and a good goalkeeper at that level was worth everything isn't it because it gets you big points and big moments and that was proven against you know when we played Arsenal in the FA Cup without question our best result of the season but he was just he's brilliant good leaders worth it for that save against Jack Clark wasn't he yeah yeah it's unbelievable fingertips he's done that week in week out he's just made big saves and big moments and so much credit to Tonda because he's a young man.

20:46Yeah. He's only 33. Yeah, 33. How old were you when you got your first management gig? I think I was 35, 34, 35. OK. So, obviously, you know, with your career, your history, it's different for you going into, because of what you've done in the game, but do you still feel like that pressure being relatively young or not? Yeah, no, I think my arm's not too dissimilar, but because I was playing at the time, so I was in the dressing room with my teammates, and then the next day I go in and I'm the manager. So I had to make a decision, obviously, whether I wanted to carry on playing and retire. I felt I could have played on for a couple of years, really, if I'm being honest, because I haven't really had any bad injuries throughout my career, and I was playing in midfield, which is a little bit easier than playing as a centre-forward.

21:39so I could have carried on but then I wanted to start that journey as going into coaching and so for me it was a bit strange obviously going into the first team meeting and the players are like what do we call you? But then the advantage I had with that was I knew which players in the dressing room were not good for the dressing room so I could quite quickly I took over the beginning of January so I was quite quickly trying to get them players out and bring players in but then so that season we stayed up last game of the season and then it was told to me that we were going into administration we couldn't sign players so for that as my first job was very difficult and the players were brilliant I have to say the players were you know incredible really how they got on with it I think give like 20 debuts from the academy players who'd never played first-team football and we had to really but then it mixed out with a couple of players we brought in and brought Jagielka and Tom Lawrence made him captain.

22:40He was in there but made him captain. Ravel Morrison done really well when we come in. So I brought a few players in who had a bit of experience who could help these younger players. And so they helped me. They helped me massively, if I'm being honest. And then we ended up with the 21-point deduction, which without that we would have stayed up, which for that group of players would have been a massive achievement. So it was tough for the staff for everyone but I have to say it was probably the most enjoyable job I've done going out to DC was different. Birmingham was just a from day one was was it was strange if I'm being honest.

23:22And Plymouth we we were actually doing okay. Plymouth I think we were due to play Oxford in December and the game got called off but if we played that and won we would have like four from bottom and then we knew what we wanted to do in January and it got cancelled and then we had Bristol on the Wednesday and I got sacked on the Tuesday which the difficult we had was the away games at home we were okay the away games we travelled on the bus for seven to nine hours for away games the day before a game and we were having to stop off the service stations for 45 minutes because the driver needed to have a rest, he couldn't.

24:04No, all stuff like this. So this is all stuff as a manager, you challenge the club to, right, we need to be able to fly to some of these games. There's no reason that Plymouth's away for them for years hasn't been great. I think it's actually been better this year. But it hasn't been great. So throughout all of them, they were all good experiences, but the Derby on Rally was the one I enjoyed most. Yeah, you sound like... And we got relegated, so it sounds a bit weird. Yeah, no, but you sound to me like someone who might fancy getting back in at some stage. Not really. I don't think I'd be that upset at that.

24:44You enjoyed that much then? No, I think I'm enjoying what I'm doing now and doing TV and stuff like that, but unless something, you know, I'd probably say unless something comes around with United or whatever from a coaching point of view, not manager, but... Unless something like that was available, I'd look at it, obviously, but other than that, I think I'm happy with what I'm doing. I'd like to see you get back in and then you can leave some of the TV gigs for us. You know what I mean? I've got two questions for you. How quickly from getting your first job, from being a player, did you go from wazza to gaffer?

25:23Is it overnight or are we not bothered? At Derby, some would call me gaffer, some would call me boss, some would call me wazzer. I didn't really... I'm not too forced to. No, no. If players wanted to call me whatever they wanted, I'm sure they'd be behind my back. Not whatever they wanted. I've had that before. I wasn't really too bothered, so... Yes. But at Derby, the other three clubs were always gaffer, but at Derby, I was mates with someone. Yeah, of course. Whatever, so, even like Jack Yelker, for instance, I think in front of a teammate, he'd call me Gaffer. But then, if we were playing golf together, he'd be taking the piss out of me, basically, because he was a little bit better than me.

26:11Common sense, I suppose, isn't it? And the other question was, when you get a gig, I thought about this the other day, is it sort of like you buy a car? Say you buy a car on Facebook, right? And it looks great, doesn't it? and then you get it home and you think, well, I've got the right touch here, and then you look under the bonnet and it's like, wow, there's a lot here that I'm not maybe aware about, and then it's like, and then you've got to get up to speed. And, you know, I always, when I talk to managers, I always think there's so much of that stuff that goes on and stuff that you need to learn on the job that people don't hear about.

26:45Yeah, well, you ask questions, of course, and you go in, you speak to them, you do your interview and you might have to go back and do another interview after that beyond that whatever and yeah and you ask questions and nine times out of ten which I've found the answers you get are not what it is basically and you always get for instance there's investors coming in with Plymouth we had the worst budging the league thinking but then investors were literally coming in any time now and they're still not in now from when I went. At Birmingham I knew there was big changes, obviously with Tom Wagner and Tom Brady coming in.

27:31And the disappointing thing about the Birmingham one is I wanted to, after two or three games, I've gone to the owners and said, these players aren't capable of playing how they wanted the team to play. And I was advised to keep doing it. and then ultimately I lost my job for doing that. I wanted to change, I wanted to go back to what John Eustace was doing, which he was getting results and until I could get players out and bring players in who were capable of doing that, I could see what was coming and they were adamant, they wanted me to continue doing what I was doing and then I lost my job for that.

28:07So for me that's something when looking back where I've just got to do what I feel is right. In that way, instead of being influenced by the owners, ultimately which cost me my job.

28:26Ali, Middlesbrough, how do you think they're going to fare? Yeah, they are an incredible team to watch. Their tactical style is very, very different. And as soon as Kim Helberg came in, they were doing well already under Rob Edwards, that's why he got the move to the Premier League. They were towards the top of the table, but that was more built on solid defensive foundations and then Helberg came in really intense technical style they've got two of the best central midfielders in the league in Hayden Hackney who won player of the season in the championship Aidan Morris really underrated American central midfielder brilliant combination and and the way that they play together basically one twos all the way up the pitch and then get them into the final third the interesting thing about Borough is that Helberg's style has been really good in many ways and in terms of their like performance data they stand out in the championship but it maybe hasn't suited some of the players as individuals and I think you can see that because they've not been finishing the chances that have been created for them sometimes they're falling to midfielders or defenders because of the fluidity of his system and even the attacking players like Conway and Streleck they haven't been the most reliable in front of goal so the results haven't necessarily reflected what it looks like when you watch Borough which is wow these are a brilliant team and the upshot is they were in pole position for second spot probably three months ago and they ended up finishing fifth so clearly it wasn't perfect for results but I do think this semi-final against Saints is going to be from a neutrals point of view if you like beautiful football these are two of the teams in the championship you're going to see it from with excellent individuals but also really interesting and technical tactical styles.

29:58Connor would you question them defensively as you actually got on the score sheet against them didn't you? I did yeah I thought I scored many mates I'm glad you mentioned that to be fair no I wouldn't I certainly wouldn't question them I actually think the game against Southampton suits them better than... I think they went through that period, didn't they, of playing teams like ours when we went up to the Riverside and played against them, who sit in a low block, maybe sit in a back five, back four, and defend and defend and defend and then counter. So they went through that little bit of a spell towards the end of the season where they struggled against them teams, I think.

30:24We went and won 1-0, a couple of other teams got a couple of results against them, and I think that's what killed them in the end. But I actually think this Southampton game really suits them. I agree with you. I think it'll be a really good game playing against both teams. Two real good teams who are going to go up against each other. I really like the manager. I love how they play. I love that style of play. I love kind of what he's done since he's come in. And I know a few of the middles were boys anyway. And again, we mentioned before about the lads kind of really liking certain managers. I know they've really bought into what he wants to do.

30:49But I just felt like, especially when we played them, they struggled against a team who want to sit in a low block and counter and then attack on transition quite quickly, which is what we've done quite well. But that's certainly what Southampton aren't going to do. Southampton will not give them that. So it'll be one for the neutral, definitely. I agree with you. OK, now, you can have as much technology as you want, but I think the best way to get the voice of the people is to do an old-school show of hands. You don't have to get involved in this. It's just for you guys here. So, who's going to win it?

31:22Southampton? You've got to put your hand up, mate. Come on. Can someone count these? One, two, three, four. I thought they'd be more than that. Southampton. Millwall? Oh, go on Melbourne. All right, yeah. Cheers, mate. Yeah, I've got your name. Borough? Mm, not many for Borough. Hull? Oh, come on. Come on, no? OK. Right, let's go to Wrexham. Paul, let's have a little chat about Wrexham. I know you're on a lot of Bradford, but could you just give us your, you know, a little bit of an insight into, like, your time there and how it was for you and how you kind of like dealt with that and move forward?

32:06No, I was crazy. Obviously, at the time, I was, from the position I was in, it was probably a big risk to take to go back two divisions. Obviously, getting Cambridge promoted and helping in that to then drop down two divisions was probably a big risk. But, yeah, one I wanted to take through the owners and the things they say and Wayne said before about like what owners usually tell you when you ask questions and things. I can honestly say now that everything I asked in the calls I had with them have done that and more and beyond that. It was unbelievable and I think it has been a Hollywood story.

32:42I know the owners, it gets branded that and people say it's not a fairy tale, but it is for the fans especially. They went 15, 16 years without being in the league and literally nearly went into extinction and had to put their own money in to keep it going to now be in the position they are and to finish just outside the playoffs this season is unbelievable. and it's been everything that everyone's seen. It's been a journey and a ride, and I don't think it's going to stop with the ambitions of the people at the club. Andy, our Wrexham representative, welcome. How are you feeling? Have you kind of come to terms with just missing out?

33:17Yeah, a little bit. Firstly, can I just say thank you for having a stone-cold legend on the sofa? That's Paul, sorry, Cody. Cheers with that, mate. It's weird for me to have a hero who I'm a bit older than, but it's OK to look up to people like that, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. It's not just the goals as well, it's just what you brought off the pitch. He really got our work ethic and he got our morality as well, and fair play to him. It's very, very rarely it clicks like that. Right, yeah, we're not in the playoffs. We didn't make it. There's a school of thought to think, is that a good thing?

33:54I think it's a good thing now, because we didn't make it. Why do you think it's a good thing? Well, as Paul and Conor will know, there's a lot that the club needs to do off the field to catch up. So we don't have a four-sided ground yet. We don't have a training ground, which I knew was a big thing for the players. I know they're taking steps to remedy that. But even just the commercial department, it's such a huge rise over the last couple of seasons that I think the Premier League would be probably a step too far for where we are at the moment. We almost need to catch a breath a little bit and sort of, you know, just let the rest of the sort of infrastructure catch up.

34:34But, you know, look, we've had a fantastic season. I didn't think we'd do as well as we did because I was like looking and saying, well, Sheffield Wednesday may go down. Maybe Hull might go down because they're under an embargo. So I was sort of thinking, right, can we sort of fifth from bottom? but to do what we've done and it all stems from a run round about Christmas where we hit four wins in a row we got to 6th or 7th and it was there just can we stick in can we stick in on it and in the end we fell a bit short but you know it's still a success this season Yeah absolutely what would you be hoping for for next season when you're looking at the squad and the ambitions of the club what would you be hoping will happen I mean I think what we probably need to do is bringing, we need another transfer window.

35:21We've only had one real transfer window in the championship. We spent a lot of money in it. We spent 20 to 30 million pounds, which sounds a lot, but we're playing catch-up with other championship teams who've had that sort of a lot of transfer windows to get their squad to more of a balanced squad. And I think there's remnants of a League One and maybe even a League Two squad. And sometimes you need another sort of summer to sort of move that and balance it up a little bit. So I would be looking at four or five, hopefully starters to come in. And I think that would give us another real good go of the playoffs.

35:56And obviously it's down to eight next season. So I would be hoping we'd be finishing in and around where we would again. Connor, on loan at Chandler at the minute, do you think we're going to see you back at Wrexham next season? Yes, certainly in the summer. Yes, certainly in the summer. I'll be going back in pre-season and I'll have a conversation with the manager. I've already spoke to him. I think people think when you leave a club or whatever, things happen, nothing ever happened. It was just kind of, I wasn't fitting at that moment in time and I'm just desperate to play football. So an opportunity arised in January to go to Charlton.

36:29I spoke to the manager at Charlton who was absolutely brilliant with me. I loved my time working with him, which was fantastic. And I took the opportunity of it. I think it worked well all around. Wrexman have had a fantastic season. I think that's a man speaking with his head about, in terms of it's a good thing that they've kind of missed out. I think speaking to the lads like I do quite often, they were desperate to get in. Desperate, but at the same time I think that's the best way to think in terms of now another summer to build, to get better and then can they go again and can they go a step further.

36:55I'd like to think I'd like to go a bit further and say, can they go further again? And maybe be near the top two because it might sound daft because you might say, oh it's Wrexham, there's no reason why they can't do it when you listen to Muls there speak about what the owners want and where they want to go to. There's no hiding from the fact that the club want to be in the Premier League. So, yeah, in terms of myself, I'll be going back in the summer and then we'll see where we're at in the summer. And Paul, you've got a year left on your contract. Yeah, the same as Conor. I'll be going back.

37:20Obviously, I haven't spoken to him, I haven't heard from manager most of the season anyway, apart from January. But yeah, when you're contracted to a club and you love it there, go back and see what happens. What was it like having the camera crews around when the doc was being filmed? How did you find her? It was all right for him. They were always at his house. He moved in. Yeah, for me. It's all right for him. No, I didn't mind them. He was a superstar, didn't he? They got used to them. Obviously at first, you signed for Wrexham and it was in the National League. You sort of feel a bit of an imposter and...

37:51What's the word? A bit embarrassed, to be honest, especially at first. But the more you go, the more you realise, the amount of people that watch the documentary and take it in and actually enjoy it, the more you just sort of accept it and just... It becomes a part of life, it becomes normal. And the cameras, you forget they're there. in the end the first couple of days you obviously you know they're there but you just carry on as normal and it just becomes a part of being at Wrexham um I'm not sure whether this year it was still as um intense on training and in the changing rooms and things but there was times when I was there you'd walk in change room half time you'd lose your head whatever and the camera's straight in your face and at first you obviously walk in see it and probably tempo what you were going to but through time you just sort of accept him and get on with that.

38:39And Wayne Phil Parkinson seems to have like, you know, he's not ridden a storm, but he seems to have, you know, stuck in there. And from the outside you might have thought they might look to go for a bigger name or something like that, but he seems to have done an incredible job there. He's been incredible because I'm friends with the Stockport owner. So I've obviously been watching it closely with Stockport from Jackson. and he was almost neck and neck, weren't he, with what was going on there. And Wrexham have obviously kicked on. And I was delighted that they kept him in as manager because you can always say, oh, he's a better manager, it's just one different team.

39:15But he's, you know, the promotions, he's got back-to-back promotions, and to go so close this year again to making the playoffs, then you can't look elsewhere, really, in my opinion, I think. They said in an interview, Rob Ryan Reynolds said, we will never sack. I can't possibly see a scenario where we would sack Phil Parkinson because he's done this all. They say, we don't know anything about football. Yeah, we've helped in loads of ways, but we think he's an absolute genius. Like, how could anyone not? We love him. We think he's incredible and they can't see a world where they'd ever sack him, which I've never heard before in football.

39:49It makes me wince a little bit, but imagine hearing that if you're him. But I think, obviously, I've managed in the championship, so I haven't been below that, but the respect I have for the managers who are down in National League, League Two, League One, and to be able to do it and go all the way through the leagues and get really close to the playoffs, it's an incredible job because there's so much more issues which these managers have to face than the managers in the Premier League. So Premier League, you're obviously, financially it's a lot greater and you're dealing with better players who maybe understand the game a little bit better.

40:27but in terms of the issues that you have to face in them low leagues to be able to consistently do it and keep getting promoted and the pressure as well because the pressure of having Ryan and Rob there and the pressure that brings with it as well is huge for him. So to be able to keep changing the team gradually in what he's done and be able to keep challenging, it's an incredible job he's done.

40:57Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. And whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary Football Weekly podcast, The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market.

41:28Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while caught or responsibly farmed. At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie, and you can't go wrong with the ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies.

42:06Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

42:20Ali, math. Math, as they say, and logistics are not my strong points. I don't know what my strong points are. But could you summarise for us in a reasonably sized nutshell the new playoff structure? The Championship playoffs will look different next year. League One and League Two stay the same for now. I don't think it's that complicated. There's two more matches and two extra teams. So there'll be six teams in the playoffs. and the teams that finish 8th and 7th will play a sort of one-off eliminator game against the teams that finish 5th and 6th. The teams that finish 3rd and 4th will have the exact same experience that they have currently because once those one-off eliminator games have been played, it's as normal, two-legged semi-finals and the final at Wembley.

43:09So it is just an expansion. A lot of people don't like it because the playoffs have been, I think they're basically the best invention in sport. and we all love them as they are now and there's a school of thought that do you need to change something that we all love so much? I think there's probably a counter-argument that look, there's going to be more teams involved later on in the season more teams with a shot, with five games to go the middle of the championship this season for example there was about six, eight, ten teams that for five games probably didn't have a huge amount riding on it so I think there's more jeopardy later on in the season and more fan bases engaged.

43:48I'm sure that's appealing for people involved. And then, of course, there's a big argument about whether it devalues the league itself and success in the league. I would probably say that having playoffs in the first place means that you're devaluing the league table, right? Because if you just went on Sporty Merit, the top three teams would go up. The third place team would go up and no one below them would have a chance to. So I personally quite like it. I'm not really overthinking it. I'm a neutral. I love these games. I think those Eliminator games are going to be incredible. And then from that point onwards, it's basically the same as we have now.

44:25So, yeah, I'm really interested to see how it plays out. And I don't think it's that complicated. OK. Fans, show of hands, who's for it? And against?

44:40We had in MLS, same as the players were like. In the MLS, obviously there there's no relegation, but the only thing is the home advantage on that one-off game. So whoever's obviously got that home advantage has got a huge advantage of going through to the next round. But I didn't mind it over there. I think, obviously, as you said, it brings more teams into it. and then you know that last day of the season you might be looking at six, seven teams who could potentially get into the playoffs so I think I think people once people get to know it and understand it because it always changes you ask questions when there's change and you're not sure whether you like it or not but I actually think once people get to understand it properly Yeah There's a lot of concern about like could an eighth place championship team be in the Premier League like that would be a disaster because they That could be a big problem, though.

45:38From a spectacle point of view, it's going to be great to watch. And obviously for all the fans, the other clubs, it's fantastic. But if you finish third and you were the third best team in the league, you could easily be 30-plus points, clear of eighth. We then could get promoted to the Premier League. And I think if you're that team, it's a big, massive, huge gap like that. A bit more, I guess. From a spectacle point of view, I'm a fan. I'd love watching it. What I think is quite interesting is that I actually think it will benefit the teams that finish third and fourth because the teams beneath them will scrap it out.

46:11You'll be delighted to finish third and play the team that finished eighth rather than the team that finished sixth over two legs. I think that the National League, where this has been in operation, is slightly different. They have one-legged semis as well. We've still got those two legs, which again generally favour the stronger team over two legs. So I think there's an argument that for third and fourth place teams, it probably makes them more likely to go up than the current system. Conor, I'll ask you, if you're the team that finishes eight and then you end up playing the team that finishes third, the pressure is so much on the team that finishes third, right?

46:45It's a bit of a free hit for the team that finishes eight. What are your thoughts? I was going to say the FNs, to be fair, I'm not sure I agree with that too much just because if you finish third and just miss out on second, it's a tough one to take that for me I think and then you've got to play I just think it's a tough one to take so I don't necessarily agree with it works out better for them two teams Currently even in the current set up third place teams go up more than any other team Yeah I know what you mean and to be fair from a players point of view if I'm 10th this season and I know you go in the playoffs if you're 8th you've got a sniff so you give it everything you've got so I think for a spectacle I think we go against it because we're so happy with the playoffs at this moment in time let's be honest we all love the playoff system where I mentioned there about being in it when he was in the Emirates.

47:25It's the best system in the world, the way we do it, and it works really well. So I think as players, as fans, you look at it and go, why are you even changing? There's no need to change. But I think then once we get into it and we see how it works, I think it then will become different. Because like I said, if I was 10th in the division this year and you've got a sniff of 8th and you're 2-3 points, you're giving everything you've got. It just becomes that little bit more exciting, little bit more jeopardy. So I do get the pluses and the negatives for it, I really do. But time will tell. Time will tell, won't it?

47:52on it because I only think the only reason we go against it is because we love the playoffs so much but if we can make it better then make it better. Was there a vote from all the EFL teams? As with everything like this it's the clubs themselves that vote on it. It's actually pretty rare to get a majority among EFL clubs because there's so many different clubs of different sizes they have different views on things but yeah it needed a majority and it got it. I think only Tran Mir voted against it so within clubs huge support for it. Players got I got asked as well. Did they ask? We got asked as well.

48:23What players? I didn't vote, I just got asked about the situation. I said exactly what I've just said to you, to be fair. Both sides of it. So I got asked about the situation and what I would think. So I said the exact same as what I've just said there, to be fair. I don't know if there's a thing in Italy or Germany where if you finish third and so far in front of fourth, then it just wipes playoffs out completely. I'm sure it is. So if like Sheffield United last season, if they've shown 90 odd and like 20 in front of Sunderland in fourth, I think it completely wipes out and third just goes up.

48:49Right. So that could be a better way of looking at it, if it's an unfair situation, like Sheffield United that far in front. But when it's quite close this season, there's three points separating Millwall and Middlesbrough or something, and it gives teams a better chance last day. I'm all for it, mate. OK. League One, do you fancy giving us a little update? Not really. No, we're 15, so no. Like I was saying about strength at sides that come up, like Wrexham and Stockport are easy ones, because the level is so much better than the league they've come from, really. So sides like that are coming up.

49:19Even this season, like Bradford have gone straight into, I thought they finished third, Bradford. There's a lot of sides like Mansfield and Donny that come up and stay up quite easily. So sides like Exeter and Northampton, Exeter, sides that are in here for a bit, are ones that are struggling and can't keep up with it financially. So they've all gone down. Like you said earlier, Leighton Orient lost in the playoff final last year and they finished fifth bottom. So you're taking that hitter, losing it, playoff final and then finishing there. It's becoming a bit of graveyard for what were eighth-decent sides at one point, like Blackpool, Wigan, Reading, Huddersfield, Barnsley.

49:51They all just sat doing note in the middle. Plymouth and Luton had a good go towards the end. If they'd have carried on, they'd probably got in. But yes, Stevenage was doing really good. Stevenage finished in there. There's a lot of money at top end, like Cardiff, Bolton, Stockport. And then Lincoln have walked it though. Lincoln had a really good side. Aside from Lincoln, who was the best team that you've seen? I think Stevenage. Stevenage slapped us. Should have been like 6-1. Yeah And Let's come to Jacob Bolton You alright? Yeah I'm alright mate How are you feeling? I don't like playoffs You're on the wrong show pal No I weren't going to come on this No but How are you feeling about the The Bradford game?

50:35We should win On paper but This league is so Unpredictable it's awful actually so I think we'll win if we get a decent reference score more than Bradford it's good it's good analysis it's all the stuff that I love mate absolutely mate you come on the right show and you'll be coming up against well Paul Mullins Bradford Paul have you seen much of Bolton yeah played against Merlin the season when I was at Wigan they were phenomenal that day to be fair and run out comfortable winners in the game against us. But they didn't manage to score, so that's a good sign for the weekend. Now, Boulton are obviously a really good side.

51:19They're the brilliant manager in Shearie there. He's very good tactically. I think it would be a good battle, but one we're looking forward to. I think the job, obviously, done at Bradford this year has been phenomenal to get in the playoffs. Obviously, first year back in League One. The way we play is very difficult to play against they've obviously experienced many different styles over years but um i'd know i wouldn't like to be coming up against uh our team and how we play and really good side like bontem but it's a game i think we can go and do really well in i think a stadium bradford massive yeah that's a big club isn't it but obviously both teams are massive stadiums big clubs and the fan bases are going to be right behind the teams and it's going to be a real spectacle to be honest i think both both stadiums will be sold out and for a league one fixture it's Phenomenal.

52:08Steve Schumacher, what are your thoughts, Jacob, on how he's done since he took over? To be fair, I think he's done well. I think he's quite calm. Our fans are awful sometimes in terms of the pressure in League One. And I think he's dealt with that pretty well. He plays good football, a lot of last-minute goals, exciting. So I'm happy with the job he's done at Bulletin. Just hopefully he can get us up. You do some videos, don't you, down at the training ground? I saw the one you did the other day where you asked one of the players, tell us something that we don't know about you. Yeah, I don't think the players actually, you know, few of them are sound.

52:49They're all sound to be fair, but I think few of them hate seeing me at the training ground. All right, yeah. It was a quick year, wasn't it? Yeah, got quite an interesting response, didn't it? Yeah. I think Ibi Cizoko said he'd be a great ping pong player. Oh, right. I was talking about something else. I had him in Plymouth. He's class, innit? Yeah, he's... If you... If you can take out the fact that he's not great defensively. And basically, if you set your team up to get him the ball in the final third, he's a top player. Shuri put him on it right back the other day. They scored a world in it.

53:23I know. Shuri was my captain in the U team. He's a good lad, Shuri, innit? Yeah, he's a good lad. He's doing well, so... I hope he does well. You got a hat-trick against Bolton in the Premier League, remember that? Yeah, I hadn't scored for about 12 games before that game. How long ago was that? How long ago that had been? I don't know, it was just a while back. Do you remember the hat-trick? Do you remember it all? Yeah, the first one, it was Guy Neville playing to me, I took a touch and curled the bottom corner. I can't remember the second one, I think the third one, I whipped it for a corner.

53:58Massive Bolton weren't they? I mean, as in, they had that period where they were in Allardyce and Joe Kiev and the Koch and all that. They were just an unbelievable team. Do you remember when Big Sam was there? Big Sam and Little Sam? That picture of when they were on the pitch. It used to be all the Little Sam. Yeah, the mics on that. The mics on that, but no, they were great. I remember playing, I think I was 16 or 17, I played against them in Campo centre half and Kochi was playing and stuff like that. And they were a fantastic team. So to see, I think when you see teams like that and then you see them drop down, it's sad really because when I first started playing, obviously professional football, Bolton were an established Premier League team and Wigan as well at the time.

54:51and then you see them drop it down and then just financially to be able to try and compete and get back up, it's very difficult for them. Very hard, isn't it? Very hard. Ali, Stevenage, Stockport is the other player fixture. How do you see that one going? Yeah, tough one to call, really. Stevenage, massive underdogs, really. Of the four, Bolton, Bradford, Stockport, Stevenage, lowest budget, I would imagine. Smallest fan base. I mean, Bradford have massively over-performed this season as well, but no one really saw Stevenage finishing in the top six. They are based on incredible defensive records, unbelievably hard-working, and they just have defenders and midfielders who win aerial duels, ground duels.

55:33They are so difficult to play against. They scored the fourth-fewest goals in the league. The only three teams that scored fewer were the bottom three. So that tells a story. They win 1-0 every fourth game. They score a lot of goals from set pieces. not incredibly potent from open play, but they are so sure of what they're doing. They understand so well how to win games or avoid losing games. And I think in the playoffs, that's a hell of a way to go into it. And Stockport, you know, they finished third, but by their own high standards of season-on-season progression, almost been a little bit underwhelming.

56:10And they come into the playoffs a little bit uncertain, loads of injuries, which means that Kyle Witten, who is the second top scorer in League One, Stryker normally is playing centre-back for the playoffs. Played the last six games of the season as a centre-back. Never played there before in his life. So that is pretty interesting. But they've got some unbelievable players. Oli Norwood, he's been the EFL kind of cheat code. So many promotions. And Louis Barry, youngster, out on the wing. They signed him in January, even though he was injured and he wasn't going to come back till April. But they knew they wanted him in case they made the playoffs.

56:43He came back, scored a hat-trick, and he's in pretty good form going into the playoffs. So pretty tough to call. Both of them have had good seasons, but Stevenage, they're definitely the underdogs. Okay. Ball you play against both. Who are the better side for you? Stockport's the better side in terms of the ability and the way they play. But, I'd say Stevenage is probably harder to play against. The way they set up, as he says, very resolute, defend deep. try to basically catch you out in a moment in the game and wait for the one moment to come. They've obviously taken a lot of time to finish in the position they have.

57:21I think two legs probably help Stockport. I think in a one-off game, it's tough against Stephens because they are happy to soak up all the pressure and take you to the right till the very end at 0-0. They don't mind that, whereas Stockport will look to go and get goals. Louis Barry is going to be massive for them. He was there at the start of last season, done unbelievably well and left in the January and ended up in the Championship and obviously got the injury this year. He brought him in just purely for the end of the season because they know the quality he has and he scored the hat, as he says, the other day.

57:53And yeah, I think Stockport have been looking to get promoted, like Wayne said, for a few years. Obviously, with Vexham competing to get out of the league and they'll obviously want to do that again. And Stevenage have been, say, brilliant defensively all season and they'll be looking to just continue the same way into the playoffs. and it'll be a real battle really of attack for defence and I think that's obvious, it's whoever comes out on top. Conor, at the risk of alienating three teams, where would you like, which stadium would you be looking forward to going and playing at next season? How are those four?

58:28Bolton, Bradford, Stockport, Stevenage? My mate sats on the couch next to me when he plays for Bradford. No, I think it's... I find it mad when we talk about the size of these clubs being in League One. I do, I think the size of the clubs are unbelievable. And I know we mentioned Stevenage there, who's probably a little bit smaller than the other ones. I think for Shuey as well, I think it would be big to get Bolton back in the Championship. And when you were talking there, it made me feel like he might be under a bit of pressure if he doesn't get him in the Championship. I hope he gets his up.

58:59But I hope Shuey does it with Bolton. And I know Moles is there, obviously, he's got a big chance with Bradford as well. and I'm not disrespecting that at all. But I just think the size of Bolton, where they've been over the years, they've been in League One for a while now. I think it'd be good for Stephen Schumacher to get that club out of the division, yeah. You dealt with that beautifully, mate. Thank you. Very diplomatic. But then you look, say the size of them clubs and then next year's Wednesday going down, Leicester going down. League One is becoming so difficult for teams to... It's a second championship.

59:28For teams to get out of now. It's incredible. Some of the teams who are getting relegated into League One is crazy. You could have 10 X Prem sides in it next year. It's crazy. Is that what it is? Yeah.

59:45I'm going to go to League Two now, which sees Salford, Notts County, Chesterfield and Grimsby in the mix for the playoffs. Just brings us up to speed on your thoughts. Same again, you know, because obviously it's sides at clubs and how good they are that come up. You've got Oldham and Barnet, I think, that have finished top 10, they've come up. Wrexham had stopped Port previously, Notts County have come up. So you're going to get like Arrogates and Barrels that fall. Them sides can't keep up with it. But then, yeah, I forgot who finished that on final day. I think Swindon ended up losing with all the way.

1:00:14But he came out and said wheels have fallen off other weeks. So you can't really get them geared up for it, can you, when you've done that? Then you've got Grimsby, Salford, Notts County and Chessie that are playing each other. Cambridge went up with Neil Harris, but you're always going to have a chance with him, aren't you? MK Donson, Paul Warren, good managers for this level. and then Bromley Michael Cheek obviously because we like saying how much goals they scored proper nine but they've proper defied it to go up and win it like they have Andy Salford fan how are you mate how are you feeling after just missing them come round a little bit it was obviously disappointing on Saturday it was an interesting one though because it's you know all the cards were in Cambridge's hands so going into it it was kind of a glimmer of hope that we might just pick them on the final day of the season as the day started going and then Cambridge missed a penalty and you start to say, this could go our way.

1:01:01But then the luck kind of ran out for us. We should have had a penalty. We had a few chances and stuff like that. It was a weird one to stomach because, yeah, Cambridge slipped up and then we just didn't pounce on that opportunity. But we didn't really go into it thinking, you know, I think if Cambridge had dropped out, they'd be licking their wounds a lot more than we are at this point. Not to say that, you know, it was a gutting opportunity because you want to take it when you want to take it. People will say, oh, it's a great opportunity to just level ourselves in the league for another season and stuff like that.

1:01:29Nonsense. Everyone wants to go up. You're going to miss that bus. Do you know what I mean? You don't want to miss that bus when it comes. If stuff behind the scenes isn't quite up to the level that you want it to be, sort that out when you get there. So I don't buy into this. Oh, it's great to not go up this season. Nonsense. So when the opportunity comes, you want to take it, and it hurts when you don't. But we've got a second fist of it, and I'm feeling very optimistic. Yeah, yeah. What are your thoughts? Grimsby, second leg at home? I'll be honest, Grimsby are the one team that didn't really want to be playing.

1:01:54I think over the course of the season, They're a very strong team. I think they were done a little bit by, they had a bit of trouble with their pitch in mid-season and they had two really good cup runs, which have kind of had a bit of a knock-on effect. But I think that, you know, over the course of the season, the top seven teams finish in the top seven because they're very good teams. I think that the little places then and the points between it is luck and sparks and moments and stuff like that. So I think that as much as I'm looking at Grimsby going, it's going to be a tough game. Grimsby thinking the same thing about Salford.

1:02:23And the one thing that we struggled with in our week period was we started conceding too many goals and we looked a bit leaking and we could be beaten. I think that we're not necessarily winning every game, but I think we're very hard to beat at the moment. So I think that plays really well into our hands. OK. Ali, that's the Salford angle. Grimmins, Binox County, Chesterfield. How do you see it panning out, mate? It's a pretty perfect play-off proposition for me as a massive EFL nerd because I think the odds have them all exactly the same going into it. That is incredibly rare. That suggests that, as we've just heard, all of these teams have their good aspects.

1:02:59There's a reason they weren't in the top three and it's down to luck, pitch, cup runs, consistency probably as well. But they've all got plenty about them. So Grimsby, obviously they finished seventh, so the bottom of the four. But since Christmas Day, most points in the whole league. So that's how they're coming into this. Salford could easily have gone up automatically. They've got some fantastic players for the level. And then Notts County and Chesterfield, big rivals. Last time they played each other was about six weeks ago. It was a red card in the first half, a lot of aggression. It's going to be incredible intensity over those two legs and not much between them really.

1:03:33Chesterfield have some amazing individuals. Sammy Braybrooks, a young midfielder on loan from Leicester that you've got to watch because at this level he just looks incredible. Armando Dobre is a great number 10 and Paul Cook in the dugout, so experienced. And then Notts County who kind of in and around the top four or five all season, pretty solid defensively. They've got some match winners too. Jodie Jones is a wide player that whips in a brilliant cross. And Alessandra Jatta, their striker, scores at a really good rate as well. So it's genuinely just pick your poison here. There's no obvious reason to side with any of the teams.

1:04:05And that sets it up pretty well. Superb, mate. Brilliant. Yeah, we're all very excited about the playoffs. So I wanted to just wrap up by asking you about your favourite moments from the playoffs. We're going to ask you guys first and then we'll come to the sofas. So, yeah, just random, shout them out. Workington. See? I've experienced it all. That's right, yeah. That's exactly what I was going to say. That one as well, yeah. Big game, that one. Yeah, it's huge, that. That was massive, yeah. I haven't got any. You haven't got any? No, like driving all the time. Seriously, do you want to go? Cos, like, you've brought absolutely nothing to the party, mate.

1:04:44Honest with you. We lost 2-0 to Oxford last time, right? Yeah. and then we've not really done much in playoffs apart from win Barnsley 3-1 at their place it was a good day out in Sheffield that was your first game that season wasn't it might have been shit house ok well I'll tell you what I'll I'll throw a few at you ok I've got Troy Deane's goal for Watford v Leicester I've got Nicky Weaver's penalty save v Gillingham Man City Dean Windass's volley if Dean doesn't get it he'll be coming for me Derby's come back against Leeds in 2019 and Bobby Zamora, winner for QPR, gets Derby in 2014. There's five.

1:05:25Got to mention Sheffield Wednesday, 4-0 down in the first leg. 5-1 in the second leg. Oh my God! Take the final, win the final. I mean, in the last few years, that's obvious. Did he play there? Peterborough. Peterborough it was, yeah. That was unbelievable. And Liam Palmer scored the most important goal at the end. Lifelong Wednesday player. Yeah, that's the recent winner. I think the Deeney goal, impossible to beat. Deeney for me, yeah. Probably the best moment in football history. And then Windass aged 39. That goal, sensational. Deeney for me. The Deeney goal was unbelievable. I had a personal one when I was at Samia.

1:06:05Conor Jennings scored 119th minute against Newport and extra time at Wembley. Which, obviously, because I was involved in it, was probably the best moment. But had there been many, that's probably a recent one which is great but I know I was a kid when it but Black Pearl getting promoted years ago it was just out of nowhere type of thing and obviously I played with Keith Sutton after after he'd been at Black Pearl in his time and him telling me all about their stories and singing it was a I think it was an unbelievable achievement to be honest I forgot about the Shelfy Wentz one that has to be yeah yeah I would have said the Troodini goal but that one has to Just because Dean will get on to me, can you just tell me, you know, just talk a little bit about somebody who knows how to get a nice volley?

1:06:51Yeah, well, I don't really want to give 3D too much. LAUGHTER To be honest. No, listen, it was just an incredible phase of play, wasn't it? Obviously, the penalty save. Was it Al Mounia who saved the... Yeah. Oh, yeah, the 20-in one, yeah. That one and then the penalty save and to go down to the end and to score, it was just a mad moment. Commentary as well, innit? Commentary's stopping, innit? Lovely cushion header. That's what I remember from it, me. Yeah, yeah. Commentary from it, so it sticks in my mind now. Superb. Is it better to go up as the winner of the playoffs or to get top two? We were talking about this before.

1:07:29I've never done the playoffs. Like I said, I've managed to go up twice as champions. I think if you had to pick one now, pick an avenue now, you'd see the playoffs because of what it brings. But being done and watching the playoffs, mate, as champions, it's high level, mate, I'll be honest. It's really good. So it's hard to turn that down. But I know what you're saying. If you were to pick an avenue to do it now and go to Wembley and the fans and everything, I do get that side of it, yeah. To lose at Wembley at the cup final is horrible. Honestly, I've lost two FA Cup final. One FA Cup final, one in Cardiff.

1:08:04And then going up them steps and come back down and then you're still on the pitch and you're seeing the opposition lifting the trophy. Honestly, it's such a bad feeling. How long does that take you to get over? Well, in an FA Cup final, it's not as bad as losing a playoff final, because losing a playoff final, the impact that has on your club. I was saying before about Derby, what that done to Derby was horrendous. So in an FA Cup final, you can go again, it's not too young, But to lose any final, I think more about the FA Cup finals lost than the 1-1. Right. So it's a bad feeling. You never get over it, basically.

1:08:46The biggest thing for the players, I think, is that when you lose, I said not being a nipple, you lose a championship playoff final and you just think to yourself, I've got to do all that again now next season. When you're that close to going to the promised land, because that's what it is, playing against these fellas every weekend, it's the promised land, it's the best ever. and just thinking to yourself, oh my God, 46 games again next season and now you've got this team coming up that it's just an absolute slog of a season, the Champions. I think you get players who have been in the Championship for a long time and financially for the player, it's life-changing if they get promoted because there's bigger aspects to the game.

1:09:27You've got players who haven't earned in the Premier League and can be financially secure if you like, where financially the impact that can have on the player and the staff as well bonuses and stuff is huge so there's just such a big impact on the whole football club on all the players and staff as well yeah absolutely okay that is it for this week's EFL playoff special fan debate sponsored by Skybet have you enjoyed it? you've been absolutely fantastic apart from you mate cheers to Wayne to Paul and to Connor and we'll see you next time cheers

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